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Traveller-digest         Tuesday, 10 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 400

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Sherbrooke
         2. Re: vegans and the collapse.
         3. trade
         4. Re: HTML Advice -Reply
         5. Re: Secret of the Ancients
         6. Re: Thoughts on Trade
         7. Re: "Canon" and the Droyne (LONG) (Was: Re: Traveller
         8. Re: Paint Removal
         9. [none]
        10. Imperial Representation
        11. Archangel SDB
        12. Serpent Class System Patrol Boat
        13. Warlock Class SDB

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 16:44:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Sherbrooke

I forgot to include this in my last post.

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> I seem to recall that more than half the states in the US have a town
> named "Salem". And there are several "Portland"s.

Actually, just slightly less than 1/3 of the states have a town/city
named "Salem."  There are 16, to be precise: one in each of Arkansas,
Illinois, Indiania, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Missouri, New Hampshire,
New Jersey, New York. Ohio, Oregon, South Dakota, Utah, Virginia,
West Virginia, and Wisconsin.

There are 8 states that have a town or city named "Portland."  They
are: Connecticut, Indiana, Maine, Michigan, North Dakota, Oregon,
Tennessee, and Texas.

OK, enough geography lesson for today. :^)

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.  
   When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
                                 - Barry Asmus

------------------------------

From: Paul Harris <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 10:06:02 +1100
Subject: Re: vegans and the collapse.

Daniel Poulin wrote:
> 
> I have just finished reading #10 of Traveller Chronicle.  While I am
> impressed by the overall quality of the information on the Solomani Rim,
>  I can't help but wonder the treatment of Vegans.  For those of you who
> haven't read the magazine, the author treats the Vegans like humans,
> in that they haven't recuperated from Virus.
> 
> The problem that I have with this question is that, even though I never
> saw their stats (I never found the article concerning them), I was told
> by a friend of mine (who is on the list and who has an unnatural attraction
> to Vegans) that they can live to be 250 years old.
> 
> While humans can forget knowledge in a few generations, the length of time
> that the 'night' lasted means that some of the Vegans (if not a lot!) who are
> alive today would have been alive during the Collapse.  Assuming they kept
> the knowledge they learned in schools (there is no reason to doubt it), they
> should have been able to recuperate faster than humans.  Furthermore, they
> used to live in a politically stable and united society.  Since a lot of the
> Vegans alive in 1200+ were alive at the time of the collapse, they should still
> have the memory of having only one government for them all, achieving unity
> shouldn't be a problem.

I recently ran a campaign in the Solomani Rim. The players found that the Vegans
had managed to recover quite quickly from the effects of the Collapse, and were 
beginning to expand on to worlds which had previously never belonged to them.
Even though many Vegans had died in the collapse, they now had restored
most of their worlds to TL-13.
They had also become very aggrivated with humanity, and were not interested
in peaceful contact, yet!
 " Not content with hemming us in and treating us like a minor race, 
you trashed our worlds, and now you expect us to wrap tentacles and make 
up, fine, but this time it will be under OUR terms. "

PS. T4 is now oficially at the bottom of the world (Tasmania, softcover).

------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 20:18:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: trade

Instead of creating a random cargo availability chart, why not have a
random "price" availability chart?  Make it such that large orders
automatically lower the "unit price" to profitable levels as compared to
someone who orders them in smaller order lots.  Player characters must
"bid" on cargo prices to get their "pick" of cargo.  Once in a great
while, "surplus" lots are available to the speculator, at prices
comparable to what the big shipping lines are getting them at - thus
increasing the PC's profit margin.
  By the way, this topic of trade, which system of speculation is being
used, Classic Traveller, or the version introduced in Merchant Prince, and
MegaTraveller?
  Personally, one of my gripes with the "newer" version of speculative
trade is based upon the fact raw materials coming in from a low tech world
are worth less than raw materials from a higher tech world.  In the
example I concocted earlier with my gaming group, there is a tech level 14
world that needs raw materials for their industry.  A tech 10 world is
producing 1 million tons of material yearly.  Another world, at tech 6 is
only producing 100,000 tons of material yearly.  At the Tech level 14
world, they would like 15 tons yearly.  The question would be: why would
the value of the raw material be significantly less valuable from the tech
6 world, than from the tech 10 world?  One player suggested that the
"impurities" in the raw material might make the material worth less to the
tech 14 world.  Another pointed out that that it might be cheaper for the
tech 10 world to produce the raw material - to which I said "so?".  Let's
take food for an example: why would the same strain of wheat, grown on a
tech 6 world be less valuable than wheat grown on the tech level 10 world?
Food is in demand regardless of where grown ( unless the other worlds use
pesticides ect that a tech 10 world would not).  In any case, I suspect
that for those who own a copy of TRAILBLAZER from METAGAMES, their method
of dealing with trade makes a bit more sense - but that version is not for
the weak of stomach <grin>...

Hal


------------------------------

From: Mark Nordstrand <markn69@mail.idt.net>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 20:15:03 -0700
Subject: Re: HTML Advice -Reply

> Rich Sezov said:
> You need to get to a UNIX prompt, go to the directory where you have
> saved the file, and use chmod to change the file permissions. I believe the
> command is something like:
> chmod <filename> 664
> but I could be wrong. Look at the man pages for chmod when you log in
> by typing: man chmod.
> 

nope, chmod 664 <filename>
but that won't do him any good if (as he said) he doesn't have permission.

MAN

------------------------------

From: Paul Harris <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 10:43:21 +1100
Subject: Re: Secret of the Ancients

>I would immagine that if it were possible, Grandfather would have learned
>how to control it and therefore would have achieved a stable J-36.  Someone
>with the adventure(I think its Secret of the Ancients), can you tell us
>whether or not Grandfather's Jump Gates (IIRC he had some of these in his
>Pocket Universe) were more than J-6?

My understanding was that jump drives weren't used at all. The transition between
systems was made by flying through teleportation portals.

The portals were made by pinching of a section of the universe, and detaching it from
the rest, except for a few portals. Through these portals you could enter and
leave these "Pocket" universes. Now, these portals could be carried around and used
anywhere to enter.
Inside the pocket universe two portals could be bought together, in the real universe
these portals could be seperated by great distances (parsecs?). So if you entered
one portal, you instantly appeared out the other.
The limit on the distance you could travel was how big the pocket universe was.
If the pocket universe was 30m in diameter, the distance the portals could work
in the real universe was 30m (I think).

Another interesting idea was that the power generation for the portals was inside
the pocket universe. Usually an asteriod or small planet. (I always loved populating these 
places with ancient robots, some still fighting the final war.)


Harry

bout time I had a signature file I think

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:16:40 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Trade

Moin Leonard Erickson,

> It's not a matter of *efficiency*, it's a case of the market already
> being "taken". 

	A Jayhawk is not intendet for making profit with shipments,
	if you ship for the normal 1kCr per parsec, even if you have
	the cargo bay full of containers every time !

> Okay, this is a case of either a *temporary* situation or of a *new*
> market/supply opening up.

	Normaly Jayhawks filling tempoary situations. They normaly
	dont need to know anything more than handling them, the
	rest is up to the broker working for the corps.

	A free trader is like a trucker who owns his truck, paying
	bank credits and hoping that a broker will find a next
	frigth for him.
	
> Big corps are much more interesting in being
> able to keep racking up that 10% month after month than in having to
> reschedule some ships for a situation that'll only last a few months.
> It's not worth the extra trouble, even if the profit is 30%.

	The corps are interested holding the traders down, they
	make the 1kCr + handling price, they make the price of
	LHy at the startport ! You need traders to fill the gaps,
	but they should'nt make the market.

> Funny thing. In the Year 0, we have:

> 1. new frontiers (expanding the Empire)
> 2. improved jump tech
> 3. improved power sources, etc

  4.	And a new imperator interested to feed his suporters (the
	big corps) so the money will be made by the corps, the
	traders will suffer as usual !

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 17:25:19 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: "Canon" and the Droyne (LONG) (Was: Re: Traveller

Moin hal@buffnet.net,

>   If it is possible to jump 36 parsecs - as per the "accidental misjump
> system" for determining the exit point of a jump, would not the DROYN have
> come up with the ability to control entry into Jump 36?  If so, (or if not,
> why not?), what are the requirements for being able to jump 36 parsecs?  The
> energy requirements are such that only the energy required for a jump one is
> required -  the rest of the problem is a matter of control.

	Because the droyn's are stupid like dogs without their Myncen.

	Perhaps Grandfather (and his childs) had discovered the meta
	mathematique of missjump points, who knows ? As known about
	the Chirpers/Droyne, any Acient Relict is based on a totaly
	different kind of technologie. If one of them discovered how
	to build up pocket universums, I'm shure an other had discovered
	missjump points. Its also known that they had only several
	hundred years until they fall in a black war destroying
	everything.

	So there are 3 posibilities :

	- They know missjump points, but had no time to use it,
	  so there are no relict missjunp computer/drive.
	- They used missjump points, they needed them for cultivating
	  the charted space in only several hundret years, so
	  you'll find such a drive in several acient ships.
	- They dont had missjump metamathematique. (This is IMHO
	  unlikely)

	But even the discovery of an relict missjump drive, wouldnt
	change the world. The high tech development in the best of
	imperials times was able to rebuild black globes without
	understanding them. But missjumps are meta mathematique dealing
	with the unlikely inside of chaotical systems. You could'nt
	use missjump points without understanding them, even if you
	have the drive ;-)

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: fenris@solon.com (Derek Dees)
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 21:52:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Paint Removal

Dave Golden typed
>
>        Now, any suggestions on painting tigerstripe?

My basic method:

     1: Determine 4 colors that will compose the camo. (Varies with
environment).
     2: Paint the areas that will receive the camo the lightest color
first. Let dry.
     3: Heavily stripe it with the next lightest color. Let dry and repeat
for the rest
          of the colors.
     4: Let dry, wash with the darkest color you're using.



Derek

fenris@solon.com
http://www.solon.com/~fenris

Homebrew - If it's a hobby, it's not a problem!

And we are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night.
                        M. Arnold "Dover Beach"




------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 02:04:00 GMT 
Subject: [none]

Steven Bonneville

>Loren asked:
>
>>Another question: My files are inaccessible to me right now, can some
>>kind soul supply me with any HIWG/Imperial Atlas/Other Canon data on
>>Lentuli subsector, and the sector in which Lentuli is located? I may
>>not need all of the numbers, but I do need to know if such exists.
>
>Lentuli subsector appears to be Empty Quarter (I), based on the information in
>the DGP sector files and the article on the Newts from Marhaban/Lentuli,
>which looks like it's Empty Quarter 0426:
>
>Marhaban      0426 A4697AB-E                       801 Im K8 IV
>
>The discussion in the HIWG list was that Marhaban was perhaps a Vilani name for the world.

"Marhaba" is Lebanese rural dialect for a phrase of greeting roughly
equivalent to "Howdy!" I added the terminal "n" and I had a world
name (you'd be surprised where these things come from sometimes).

> Loren, I'll send you a stack of related files directly.

Stacks don't do me much good -- I have no program to read 'em.


Ensign John,

> Currently, I am running a "Glory Years" Traveller campaign, set
> in the early 1100's. I've been bringing together all the early
> adventures I have and customizing them to fit the style of this
> particular group of players.  Are you familiar with CT?  If so, pull
> out that old copy of 76 patrons!  It's full of great adventure
> leads. Each parton encounter is written in a style that leaves
> plenty of room for Refs to breathe life life into them.

I had fun writing it, but it _drained_ every adventure idea I had for
_years_ afterwards.


Stuart L. Dollar

>Actually, having never played Wing Commander, I can't make any
>judgment on the similarity.  If they are so similar, I wonder why GDW
>didn't defend their copyright vigorously in this situation...

None of us ever played Wing Commander either (none of us had a great
deal of spare time for _playing_ games)...and no one pointed it out to
us (assuming there is anything to the comparison at all).
Larry Hadley

>> Actually, having never played Wing Commander, I can't make any
>> judgment on the similarity.  If they are so similar, I wonder why GDW
>> didn't defend their copyright vigorously in this situation...
>>
>   Probably because they were both copied from Niven's Kzin.

Uh...I must respectfully take issue with this statement, as far as the
Aslan are concerned (and likewise with the accusation that we lifted
the Aslan from C J Cherryh's Hani, which used to be tossed at GDW about
three times a year -- one might as well say that we stole the Aslan
from the Egyptian pantheon's goddess Bast!    : )

One of our "fans" once turned us in for stealing the Ancients from
the Hee-Chee. We got a phone call from the relevant author's agent,
sent copies of the relevant products, and got a letter apologizing
for bothering us.

       Loren Wiseman



------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 10 Sep 96 14:10:34 +1000
Subject: Imperial Representation

     >Apart from military presence, how would the Imperium represent itself 
     on the average world within the Imperium? 
     
     I think the Imperium would have representatives depending on their 
     interests in the planet or system. As a rough rule of thumb, I would 
     suggest that representation be something like this: 
     
     If the world is Tech 12+, population 8+ or a subsector capital; the 
     Imperium will maintain an Imperial Embassy with full Imperial offices, 
     including an office for each branch of the Imperial government 
     (Ministry of Justice, Imperial Treasury, Diplomatic Service, ...)
     
     If the world is Tech 9+, population 6+, law 8+ or government 6,  
     (colony world) or is the homeworld of a minor race, the Imperium will 
     maintain a consulate, including at least two Imperial staff and 
     whatever representatives of the Imperial administration are necessary 
     to protect Imperial interests (eg Ministry of Colonization if planet 
     is being colonized, Ministry of Justice if local law regularly 
     interferes with Imperial law (hence law 8+), Treasury if high 
     population (ensures Imperium gets its taxes!))
     
     If the world is starport X, interdicted, tech 4-, law 2- or govt 0, 
     the Imperium will maintain a number of observers (read: spies) or a 
     small consular office with a single representative, basically to 
     maintain a watch and call for help if Imperial interests are being 
     threatened. This presence will be low key (if not invisible) so as not 
     to interfere in local affairs. 
     
     Other planets of particular interest to the Imperium will have 
     consulates, embassies, research stations, naval bases, military bases, 
     etc as the Imperium sees necessary. 
     
     Outside the Imperium - the Imperial government will maintain at least 
     a small consular office on worlds that have client state status or are 
     special to Imperial interests in some manner. Non-imperial subsector 
     capitals will have at least Imperial consulates, while homeworlds of 
     major races will have full Imperial Embassies.  
     
     I understand these 'rules' are a bit dodgy, but having a rule of thumb 
     like this will help the poor Ref who's put on the spot when the 
     players suddenly decide they want to see an imperial representative :]
     
     Discussion? 

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 02:35:06 -0400
Subject: Archangel SDB

Hi,
I wrote up several TL-9 ships. I used SSDS with a few FFS designed
components added on.  The Point Defense Laser I use, was designed 
by Muir. I hope he doesn't mind if I post it here:
Point Defense Laser, MFD, TL9, 4.7Mj, 9.54 meters
Volume:  67.48m^3 (5Td)         Mass:  83.08 tonnes
Price:  19.89MCr                Area:  72.44 m^2
Input Energy:  (ROF10)  .131MW
               (ROF50)  .654MW
               (ROF100)1.306MW

                Short   Medium  Long    Extreme
Range (hex)             1       2       4       8
DV              5       3       1       1
Pen               1/2   1       Nil     Nil

Notes:  Includes a workstation, SR 1 beam pointer, SR 1 MFD, and SR 1 
pencil-beam radar sensor.  The MFD requires a bridgestation to function.

While I wrote up these ships for the RC setting, they fit in
very well with the Year 0 Imperium, these ships could be
built by a low tech planet that the Imperium comes in contact with.

As always hope this is useful.
Lewis

PS I put the ship descriptions in both T4 and TNE style write ups
Personally I prefer the TNE style, with its much greater detail,but
I figured I'd be modern and include the T4 style.


Archangel SDB 
- -------------------------------------------------------------
T4 Style Data:
Tons: 400	    Volume:5600m^3	    Cost: 1005.9 MCr
Crew: 66	    Passengers H/M:0/0	    Passengers L:0
Cargo: 30	    Controls:Fib Bridge	    Tech Level:9

Size Rating: 8		    Jump Rating:0
Fire Control:2		    G Rating/Maneuver Drive:4 Fusion Rcts/C-Grav
4xPDL 1:0:0:0		    Power Plant:1 
5xMissile Barb 25(10)        Fuel Rating:2(Fission) Scps
			    Meson Screen:0
			    Sand Caster:0 
	                    Damper:0
			    A:2 P:4 J:2

			    Armor:90	Structure Data:14	
Notes:The Archangel is a streamlined sphere. It has hamster cages on 
both sides.  


FFS Style Data:

General Data
 Displacement: 400 tons		Hull Armor: 400
 Length: 22m			Volume: 5600 m^3
 Price:  1005.94MCr		Target Size: S
 Configuration: Sphere SL	Tech Level: 9	
 Mass (Loaded/Empty) 13240/12311 tons.

Engineering Data
 Power Plant: 150MW Fission Plant. 1 year fuel supply.
 Jump Performance: Nil
 G-rating: 4 w/ Fusion Rockets. 1 w/Contra Grav
 G-turns: 100 (Fusion Rockets). 5.6m^3/hr. Fuel tank=70m^3
 	      Unlimited w/ Contra Grav
 Maint: 325 
 
Electronics
 Computer: 2xTL 9 Fib Comps
 Commo: 2x300,000 km Radio,2x1000AU Maser, 300,00km laser com
 Avionics: TL 9
 Sensors: 2x60,000km Radar, 120,000km HRT
 ECM/ECCM: 60,000km Radar Jammer
 Controls: Bridge with 19 WS, and 17 other. Low Automation 

Armament
 Offensive: 4x TL-9 4.7 MJ Laser PFD Lasers
            ROF=100, Short Range=1, 5-3-1-1
            5x Missile Barbettes. 25 Missiles Ready. 35 missiles in reserve.
 Master Fire Directors: 5 SR=2 for Missle Barbettes
						4 SR=1 for PFD Lasers
 
Accomadations:
 Life Support: Extended, G Tanks for Engineers and Bridge Crew
               Crew Quarters are located in two Hamster Wheels 
	       located on either side of the hull.
 Crew:66: 17 Engineers, 4 Maintenance, 5 Electronics, 1 Steward, 1 Doctor
	  1 Maneuver, 9 Gunners, 8 Command Crew and 20 Ships Troops.
 Staterooms: 5 Sm Staterooms. Captain and XO have singles, rest of the
             command staff doubles up. The crew hot bunk in 20 bunks.  The 
             NCOs get to share a bunk with only one man
 Other Facilities: Na
 Cargo: 211 m^3. 1 Large Cargo Hatch.
 Small Craft: None
 Air Locks: 4
 
 Notes: Fuel scoops fitted, but no purification plant.

   The Archangel is produced by Bourgund Shipyards on Oriflamme.  Oriflamme
possesses the largest shipyard in the RC, but it is as yet unable to 
manufacture jump drives. To utilize the excess capacity, the Technarchs
have ordered large numbers of SDBs. This serves several purposes; it puts
tens of thousands of workers to work.  When the shipyard does start to
manufacture jump drives, these workers will be highly trained, and will
be able to produce large numbers of ships for the growing markets.
A second purpose behind the expansion, is that Oriflamme needs a large
navy, both to patrol the new merchant traffic and to protect against 
Vampire incursions.  
   The Technarchs also want to export SDBs to other planets, both inside
and outside of the RC.  Only Aurora and Aubaine are able to produce ships
for their own defense. The Aubaine shipyards are busy producing jump capable
ships, and have long waiting lists.  Some might question the sanity of 
selling warships to planets in the Wilds.  It is actually a very good idea, 
SDBs are not usable for offensive purposes, no one will be able to conquer
their neighbor with a fleet of SDBs, they will be able to protect their
planet against Vampires, pirates, and marauders.  This will help promote
the development of these planets, and increase trade between the RC and
the Wilds, eventually leading to the expansion of the RC.  
   The Archangel class is built primarily for Oriflamme use, it is fairly
expensive, costing just over 1 Gigacredit.  The difference in exchange
rates between Oriflamme and Aurora/Aubaine makes it a little more 
reasonably priced, (about 24%) but still expensive.  The Warlock class and
the Serpent class are more suitably priced for export. 				  
   The Archangel is capable of 4G acceleration, this is extremely high for
a ship without gravitic compensation. The crew is protected by workstations, and
grav tanks. This allows 3Gs of acceleration to be ignored. All crewmembers
also have neural jacks installed, which allow another diff mod to be ignored.
The ship is only able to evade at 3Gs, without the crew suffering penalties.
Crew members without workstations, notably the maintenance and medical staff
and restricted to quarters while the ship undergoes high g maneuvers.  
This makes damage control rather difficult, but high g maneuvers are performed
infrequently, and only during combat situations.  
    The Archangel is a sphere with two hamster wheels attached to the sides.
These allow the crew to sleep and recreate in normal gravity.  The crew sleeps
in large barracks, but they don't have the standard bunks, but rather 
hammocks, which can also be used in zero g situations when the hamster 
wheels aren't not functioning.  The ship design is very cramped, and all
crew members are carefully screened to eliminate those who have psychological problems
problems with this.  The Oriflamme navy maintains a very high morale, by
offering signing bonuses, extra shore leave, and providing very high quality
food.  Also there is a mystique about the navy, which assures that there 
will always be qualified applicants.  

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 02:36:27 -0400
Subject: Serpent Class System Patrol Boat

				
Serpent Class System Patrol Boat

T4 Style Data:
Tons: 200	Volume:2800m^3		Cost: 165.24MCr
Crew: 13	Passengers H/M:0/0	Passengers L:0
Cargo: 34tons	Controls:Fib   	        Tech Level:9

8:Size Rating		Jump Rating: 0
2:Fire Control   	G Rating/Maneuver Drive: 1 Fusion Rcks, 1 C-Grav
3xMissile Barbe 15 (6)	Power Plant:1
			Fuel Rating:10(Fission) Scps
			Meson Screen:0
			Sand Caster: 3 (36)
			Damper:0
			A:1 P:2 J:0

			Armor:100	Structure:6
Notes: The ship is a streamlined sphere, with hamster cages mounted on 
each side. While the fusion rockets are turned off, the ship has a 3MW
power shortfall, usually the contra-grav or sandcasters are turned off.

FFS Style Data:
General Data
 Displacement: 200 tons		Hull Armor: 500
 Length: 17m			Volume: 2800 m^3
 Price: 165.24 MCr		Target Size: S
 Configuration: Sphere SL	Tech Level: 9	
 Mass (Loaded/Empty) 8362/7527

Engineering Data
 Power Plant: 50MW Fission Plant. Fusion Rockets generate 40MW, when on.
	      3 MW shortfall without Fusion Drives. Either Contra Grav or
	      Sandcasters must be turned off. 1 year fuel supply on board.
 Jump Performance: Nil
 G-rating: 1 w/ Fusion Rockets. 1 w/ Contra Grav
 G-turns: 100 (Fusion Rockets) .7^3/hour. Fuel tank=35m^3
	  Unlimited with Contra Grav	      												   
 Maint: 146
 
Electronics
 Computer: 2xTL 9 Fib Comps
 Commo: 30,000 km Radio, Maser
 Avionics: TL 9
 Sensors: 30,000 km  Radar, 60,000 HRT
 ECM/ECCM: Na
 Controls: 12 workstations. Low Automation controls

Armament
 Offensive:  3x Missile Barbettes. 15 Missiles Ready. 42 missiles in reserve.
 Master Fire Directors: 3 SR=2 for xMissle Barbettes
 Defensive: 3xSandcasters 36 ready canisters

Accomadations:
 Life Support: Extended, Crew Quarters are located in two Hamster Wheels 
               located on either side of the hull.
 Crew:13: 3 Engineers, 1 Maintenance, 2 Electronics, 6 Gunners,
          1 Captain/Pilot. 		
 Staterooms: Captain has a small stateroom, the rest of the crew bunks
             in 12 bunks. 
 Other Facilities: Na
 Cargo: 475 m^3
 Small Craft: Na
 Air Locks: 2

Notes: Fuel scoops are fitted, but no fuel plant is fitted. Fusion rockets
are quite capable of burning unrefined fuel.
  
    The Serpent class was built using lessons learned in the designing the 
Warlock class SDB. Its designers thought it was a bit to small to be called
a System Defense Boat, so the type designation System Patrol Boat was 
created.  The Serpent has the same performance as the Warlock, but without
the planetary bombardment facilities, the Configurable Pod, and a smaller
cargo bay.  This allows the ship to be built on a smaller hull and for
considerably less money.  The Serpent gives three times as much personal
room to the crew members. The crew still sleeps in the traditional 
hammocks, its just that there are less crew members for the given space.
	The Serpent is designed purely for the export market. The salespeople
pitch the ship as a small highly armed ship capable of patrolling a system.
It won't take out a Vampire Capital ship, but is more than capable of 
fighting off a pirate, smuggler or rebel ship.  As with the Warlock, Oriflamme
will sell service contracts to perspective buyers, and will provide crews.
Some of the Bourgund Technarchs are trying to apply political pressure to
other Centrist planets, so that they will buy Serpent SPB, instead of buying
standard SDBs from Aubaine or Aurora.  

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 02:36:53 -0400
Subject: Warlock Class SDB

Warlock Class SDB

T4 Style Data:
Tons: 400	Volume:5600m^3		Cost: 254.2MCr
Crew: 19	Passengers H/M:0/0	Passengers L:0
Cargo: 85tons	Controls:Fib Bridge	Tech Level:9

8:Size Rating		Jump Rating: 0
2:Fire Control   	G Rating/Maneuver Drive: 1 Fusion Rcks, 1 C-Grav
3xMissle Barbe 15 (6)	Power Plant:1
			Fuel Rating:10(Fission) Scps
			Meson Screen:0
			Sand Caster: 3 (36)
			Damper:0
			A:1 P:2 J:0

			Armor:100	Structure:9
Notes: The Warlock can carry a 100 ton pod. The ship is a streamlined
sphere, with hamster cages mounted on each side.

FFS Style Data:
General Data
 Displacement: 400 tons		Hull Armor: 500
 Length: 22m			Volume: 5600 m^3
 Price: 254.23 MCr		Target Size: S
 Configuration: Sphere SL	Tech Level: 9	
 Mass (Loaded/Empty) 14500/12300

Engineering Data
 Power Plant: 100MW Fission Plant. Fusion Rockets generate 80MW, when on.
	      10MW power surplus, without the Fusion Rocket power. 1 year
	      fuel supply on board.
 Jump Performance: Nil
 G-rating: 1 w/ Fusion Rockets. 1 w/ Contra Grav
 G-turns: 100 (Fusion Rockets) 1.4^3/hour. Fuel tank=70m^3
          Unlimited with Contra Grav	      												   
 Maint: 280
 
Electronics
 Computer: 2xTL 9 Fib Comps
 Commo: 30,000 km Radio, Maser
 Avionics: TL 9
 Sensors: 30,000 km  Radar, 60,000 HRT
 ECM/ECCM: Na
 Controls: Bridge with 8 workstations, and 6 other workstations. Low 
           Automation controls

Armament
 Offensive:  3x Missile Barbettes. 15 Missiles Ready. 42 missiles in reserve.
 Master Fire Directors: 3 SR=2 for Missile Barbettes
 Defensive: 3xSandcasters 36 ready canisters

Accomadations:
 Life Support: Extended, Crew Quarters and 265m^3 of the cargo bay are 
 	       located in two Hamster Wheels located on either side of the 
               hull.
 Crew:19: 6 Engineers, 1 Maintenance, 2 Electronics, 1 Maneuver, 
          6 Gunners, 2 Command Crew, and 1 Doctor			
 Staterooms: Captain has a small stateroom, the rest of the crew hot bunks
             in 6 bunks. 
 Other Facilities: 250m^3 internal bomb bay.  240m^3 internal missile bay.
 Cargo: 600 m^3
 Small Craft: 100 Ton pod.
 Air Locks: 4

Notes: Fuel scoops are fitted, but no fuel plant is fitted. Fusion rockets
are quite capable of burning unrefined fuel.
 
	The Warlock class SDB was originally proposed as an alternative to the 
Leviathan class Assault ship. The original plan was to equip a Maggart with
3 Warlocks.  The Maggart would orbit the planet providing fire support,
while the 3 Warlocks would descend to the surface, land the troops, then
take the air to provide fire support.  This has several advantages over
the Leviathan class; First the Maggart is available for other missions
when an assault ship is not needed.  Also the Warlocks would split
the troops into three sections, during atmospheric descent, which is when
the ships are at their most vulnerable position. prejudice against low
tech ships helped kill the Warlock assault ship design. Some Oriflammi 
also blame the Aubaini for shooting down the proposal purely
because it came from Oriflamme.  
     After sinking millions of credits into the design, and constructing
several examples of the class, the Bourgand Technarchs were faced with
a ship without a mission.  The finally decided to market it as an export
SDBs.  It is fairly inexpensive, and provides a great deal of flexibility.
It has a 100 ton pod bay.  Pods can be used to carry extra space misses
or planetary strike missiles, extra troops, small craft such as fighters
or assault landers. Extra weapons can also be installed. It has 85 tons of cargo
hold, allowing the ship to carry supplies for a great deal of men, extra
troops, or even armored vehicles for the troops.  The ship also comes with 
missile bays for either planetary strike missiles, cruise missiles or air to
air missiles. It also possesses a large bomb bay, allowing the ship to bomb 
planetary targets.  The ship is very heavily armored allowing it to
shrug off most lasers and PAWs.  It is also sufficient to shrug off
the blasts from an Intrepid tank.
	The Warlock will never be a capable of fighting off a TL-15 warship on 
a one for one basis, but in groups it would be able to protect a planet
from a small vampire ship.  It is quite capable of serving as a customs
vessel, and protecting merchants from the standard Corsair.  
	The Oriflamme salespeople do a wonderful job of selling the ship to
Wild clientele. They promote the versatility of the ship, while glossing
over the poor sensor suite, and limited maneuverability of the ship.
Most of the Wild leaders they are selling to, haven't had any formal
training in modern naval warfare, and are easily dazzled with flash and
gloss.  				 
     Most clients in the Wilds, do not possess starports capable of 
maintaining and servicing the ships, so Oriflamme is happy to sell
service contracts.  They will also provide crews for the ships, or
train native crews for the ships.  All for a nominal fee of course.
Occasionally the salespeople will cut a deal, if they are guaranteed
long term service contracts, or if the buyer buys in bulk.  





 

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Tuesday, 10 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 401

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Galahad Monitor
         2. Starship paint jobs
         3. BITS T4 Adventure
         4. 76 Patrons
         5. Long night, big empire
         6. Re: Thoughts on Trade
         7. "Follow Me!"
         8. Re: Ultra-tech battle
         9. Re: Ultra-tech battle
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #399
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #396
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #396
        13. Re: Ultra-tech battle
        14. Re: Ultra-tech battle
        15. Re: Ultra-tech battle
        16. Re: Ultra-tech battle
        17. Combat Tables

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 02:35:58 -0400
Subject: Galahad Monitor

Galahad Monitor

T4 Style Data:
Tons: 1000	Volume:14,000m^3	Cost: 1646.6 MCr
Crew: 96	Passengers H/M:0/0	Passengers L:0
Cargo: 56	Controls:Fib Bridge	Tech Level:9

Size Rating:9 		Jump Rating:0
Fire Control:2		G Rating/Maneuver Drive:4 Fusion Rockets
10xPDL 1:0:0:0		Power Plant:1 
10xxMissile Barb 50(20)   Fuel Rating:14(Fission) Scps
Spinal PAW 8:4:3:2   	Meson Screen:0
			Sand Caster:0 
			Damper:0
			A:2 P:4 J:2

			Armor:60	Structure Data:16	
Notes:The Galahad is a streamlined cylinder. It has hamster cages on 
both sides.  It has a power shortage when not using fusion rockets,
in such a case it can either use the PAW or the contra-grav.


FFS Style Data:

General Data
 Displacement: 1000 tons		Hull Armor: 200
 Length: 60m			Volume: 1400 m^3
 Price: 1646.64MCr		Target Size: M
 Configuration: Cylinder SL	Tech Level: 9	
 Mass (Loaded/Empty) 28276/25030 tons.

Engineering Data
 Power Plant: 1000MW Fission Plant. 1 year fuel supply. 80MW shortfall
              when fusion drives off. Fusion drives supply 400MW.
	      Usually either contra-grav or PAW is turned off to make
	      up shortfall.
 Jump Performance: Nil
 G-rating: 2 w/ Fusion Rockets. 2 w/Contra Grav
 G-turns: 400 (Fusion Rockets). 7m^3/hr. Fuel tank=700m^3
 	  Unlimited w/ Contra Grav
 Maint: 312
 
Electronics
 Computer: 2xTL 9 Fib Comps
 Commo: 2x300,000 km Radio,2x1000AU Maser, 300,00km laser com
 Avionics: TL 9
 Sensors: 2x60,000km Radar, 120,000km HRT
 ECM/ECCM: 60,000km Radar Jammer
 Controls: Bridge with 39 WS, and 48 other. Low Automation 

Armament
 Offensive: 10x TL-9 4.7 MJ Laser PFD Lasers
            ROF=100, Short Range=1, 5-3-1-1
	    10x Missile Barbettes. 50 Missiles Ready. 50 missiles in reserve.
	    NPAW 3000MJ ROF=100, Short Range=10 274-137-69-34
 Master Fire Directors: 10 SR=2 for Missle Barbettes
            10 SR=1 for PFD Laser
            1 SR=2 for PAW
Accomadations:
 Life Support: Extended, Crew Quarters are located in two Hamster Wheels 
	       located on either side of the hull.
 Crew 96: 37 Engineers, 6 Maintenance, 5 Electronics
	  1 Maneuver, 31 Gunners, 13 Command Crew, 2 Stewards, 
          and 1 Doctor.
 Staterooms: 7 Sm Staterooms. Captain has a single, the rest of the
             command staff doubles up. The crew hot bunk in 28 bunks.  
 Other Facilities: Na
 Cargo: 396m^3. 2 Large Cargo Hatch.
 Small Craft: None
 Air Locks: 10
 
 Notes: Fuel scoops fitted, but no purification plant.

   The Galahad Monitor is produced by Bourgund Shipyards on Oriflamme.   
It is the largest non-relic ship in the Oriflamme Navy. None of the other worlds
of the RC has purchased a Galahad, and unlike other ships, the Technarchs
don't intend to export the Galahad.  They believe, rightly so, that none 
of the other RC worlds has a large enough economy to purchase Galahad
monitors.
   It is intended to protect vital areas
of the Oriflamme system mainly the homeworld, and the gas giants.  
One thing of note about the Galahad, is that the range of its PAW far
outstrips its feeble sensors, it usually operates with a vast sensor
net made up of drones, and planet based sensors.  
   The Galahad class is a very compact design, there is a minimal amount
of space for the crew. The crew sleeps in the traditional hammock of the
Oriflamme navy.  This saves space, and also allows the crew to each have
on individual bed, rather than sharing an actual mattress in the normal
hotbunking scheme.  The crew often sets up recreation facilities, in the
cargo bay, between rows of cargo pallets.  Zeeball is a popular activity.

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 04:52:56 -0400
Subject: Starship paint jobs

Hi,
A while back people were talking about how starships are painted,
one thing that I thought of but no one mentioned it, was 
holographic images.  By this I mean images on the hull
that appear to have depth, not holographic projections from the hull.
So a fancy yacht named the Fire Drake, would have a 3D image of
a dragon on the hull.  

Another possiblity that I just thought of is, animations. This could
be holographic or just 2D images.  The above dragon could breath
fire that danced around, the dragon itself could fly around the hull.

Of course these animations would be fairly useless in deep space,
so they probably would only be turned on in port.  I imagine
that this would something rich yacht owners might do, just 
to show off how much money they had.  That and Free Traders who
want to look really neat. (This would be the sterotypical player

Lewis

------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:56:26 +0100
Subject: BITS T4 Adventure

     Susan (or Allen?) wrote:
     > Liam wrote:
     > >  of the rules (and bought "A Long Way Home" - the T4 approved 
     > >  adventure produced by BITS, plug, plug ;-)) 
     
     >        Are there any of these left? How could an American such as 
     > myself get one? What setting is it for?
     
     Hey, Andy, *wake up*; you've got a customer.
     
     The adventure is set in Year 0 and starts in the Core sector.  It's a 
     mini-campaign, actually.  I haven't had a chance to read through it 
     all, but the PC's are the crew of a scout ship about to embark on a 3 
     month survey mission (IIRC).  Needless to say, things don't go quite 
     to plan.  It features a subsector worth of systems (a lot of them full 
     systems, not just the mainworld), a new 300 ton scout ship design 
     (including floor plans) and is about 64-96 pages long (I think).  Oh, 
     yeah, the QSD ship designs are fantastic ;-).
     
     Andy Lilly, the BITS co-ordinator, can be contacted at:
     
         A.S.Lilly@nortel.co.uk
     
     and he might just have recovered from EGC by now (or maybe not :-)).
     
     Cheers,
     Liam
     
     -- 
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

From: Sam Draper <S.Draper@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:13:02 +0000
Subject: 76 Patrons

Ensign John and Loren wrote:

>> Currently, I am running a "Glory Years" Traveller campaign, set
>> in the early 1100's. I've been bringing together all the early
>> adventures I have and customizing them to fit the style of this
>> particular group of players.  Are you familiar with CT?  If so, pull
>> out that old copy of 76 patrons!  It's full of great adventure
>> leads. Each parton encounter is written in a style that leaves
>> plenty of room for Refs to breathe life life into them.
>
>I had fun writing it, but it _drained_ every adventure idea I had for
>_years_ afterwards.

76 patrons was invaluable, especially for diversions from larger campaigns.
Hopefully, IG will include a dozen such encounters in the back of every
source book and publish a larger collection.

Maybe we could write such a thing here on the TML.


------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:18:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Long night, big empire

So,

Yesterday I'm flipping thru V&V.

Up to now, I've kept having this idea that the
Long Night ended at Year 0.... when in reality it
had ended many centuries earlier.

To quote from V&V:

"Then, in -495, advance scouts from the Sylean Federation
contacted Vland. The Viliani leaders were first unconvinced
that the new Sylean Federation had any influence over the
interstellar lanes."

So, the Syleans had dreams of empire on their collective minds
for maybe 5 or 6 hundred years before Cleon finally crowned
himself Emperior. Perhaps the Syleans had desired an emperor for
centuries and Cleon was the first person with the balls
to take on the job!

Later,

"Centuries later, diplomats from the Sylean  Federation
repeatedly approached the Igsiirdi about Vland officially
joining a new and expanding "trade federation" of Cleon.
Finally, in -30 our ilani ancestors agreed, but stipulated that
membership in the federation ... must not try to impose
Sylean culture on the Vilani."

Quotes are from V&V, pps. 21-22.

Anyways, perhaps it was the entrance of Vland into
the trade federation that gave Cleon the legitimacy
to declare himself Emperor.

BTWm, from looking at the TL tables in MT, no one is likely to have
anything greater than jump-2 in Year 0, right? The Terrans
had Jump-3 during the Nth Interstell wars and the rule of man, 
but that's TL 13 and all gone now... the rediscovery of
jump-3 will "shrink" the new empire signifigantly...

ANyways, just some thoughts,
Ethan


------------------------------

From: Scott Ripley <abiscott@pop.erols.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:07:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Trade

At 05:14 PM 9/9/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On 09/08/96 at 11:17 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
>
>>But the prize for a Free Trader is finding a *three* cornered run. Point A
>>has somethiong that point B wants. Point B has something that point C
>>wants, and C has something that A wants. Get an intitial cargo at A, and
>>follow the route A->B->C->A... and you'll make lots of money. 
>
>Ah yes, the Triangle Trade!  Turn sugar to rum to slaves.  It made the
>Nor'easters rich.
>
>Eris
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>

I hate to mention the triangle trade was TOBACCO to Rum To Slaves.  And
Triangle trade only works when there is a freely convertable monetary source
on one of the points.  Some of the most effective trade routes are 5 or 6
points shuttling increaing value commodities each time


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:28:40 -0700
Subject: "Follow Me!"

On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, David Jaques-Watson said:

>3.	INFANTRY

>Doug said:
>>United States Infantry- "Follow Me!"

>Safer than being in front, is it? ;-)

You don't know the half of it.  "Follow Me" is the motto of the US Infantry.
At Ft. Benning, Ga., their is a statue called Iron Mike in front of Infantry
Hall that shows a WWII platoon leader charging forward.  Even the Infantry
Center and School patch has that damn phrase on it.

The theory is that if you run out of every other option, you yell "Follow
Me!" to your troops, and charge the enemy.  Right.

The unofficial (and banned) motto of the enlisted infantry is: "Have Fun Sir!"



+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:28:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

On Mon, 09 Sep 96, "David A. Nelson" <34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> said:

>    The recent discussion of high tech warfare in traveller got me
thinking. >what would a battle of two TL-12+ armies be like.  A Ultra-tech
battle would >have no front lines, only strong point and roving collumns of
contra-grav >armor.

I think you are forgetting two things: Supply and the Infantry.  Armies,
even at TL12 require vast amounts of supply.  Consodering that we discovered
that even at TL15 it was more effcient to arm grav tanks with railguns as
opposed to plasma weapons, you will be called upon to transport *tons* of
ammo to every tank battalion in combat.  

Tanks cannot hold terrain.  this is a basic fact that the Germans understood
in WWII.  You have to put the Poor, Bloody Infantry in to root out the last
of the resistance and physically take possession of the disputed area.
Tanks are very poor weapons in an urban area. their limited vision cripples
them.

>    At TL-12+ every AFV is contra-grav with speeds of 500+ km/h, with
>endurances of 20 hours+ (flying tanks).  To stop grav-tanks across a wide
>front would require more equipment and men then most armies could even
think >of fielding.

Transport becomes a issue here.  How many tanks can you bring with you?  I
imagine that the aggressor will be fairly armor-light, expecting ortillery
to support their mostly infantry based ops.

>Also their is no way to keep the emeny from going around behind you, no
>geographic feature can slow, let alone stop a contra-grav mobile army.  Add
>to this grav-tanks can go into orbit and come down behind you, and warship
>can drop battle dress troops anywhere in your rear.  The General effect in
>my oppion is the the countuies front line will be dead.

Sure there is a way to stop the end run.  It's called the reserve.  A smart
commander *always* keeps some forces held back just in case.  Also, if both
forces are TL12+, the intruding grav tanks will find themselves targeted by
missles designed to shoot down tanks.

If the invading force has such absolute orbital control that the invaded
world has no effective defences left, you're right.  Turn out the lights,
the party's over.  However, if resistance continues, I wouldn't want to
leave my ass hanging in mid-air for hours while I climbed for orbit.. just
waiting for that missle battery or interceptor to knock me down.

With drop troops, once again you have to realize that the enemy shoots back.
Read up on some of the mass parachute drops of WWII.. Those guys were in the
air for about a minute and usually had suprise.  A jump troop drop will be
in the air for a *long* time.  A desperate defender might launch a nuke set
to explode in the middle of the drooping capsules, eithe killing or
scattering the the troops over a wide area (this works against tanks too.)

>  A TL-12 armies will defend only what they have to.  Armies will make
>strong points around important areas they want to defended, the captial, a
>deep sit mason gun, a star port, a city.  The main defender of these cities
>will be foot soldiers, backed up by heavy weapons,(rapid fire point defense
>laser, and tank missiles,etc), and covered by a heavy mason screen.

Exactly.  Make the enemy come to you.  The defender has a 10:1 advantage
when in prepared positions.  When you have the time to set up interlocking
fields of fire, minefields, pre-planned artillery fires, primary, secondary,
and fall back firing positions, you can give the incoming bad guys a real
hard time.

>    From these strong points the defenders armor column will salley forth
to >do battle.  A battle between two contra-grav columns could easly cover
>hundreds of miles.  These armored columns will attemt to distory the emeny
>armor, or reduce the enemy strongs points.

Here is your big error. When you are in a good defensive position, STAY IN
IT.  Patrol aggressively, but make them come into your trap.  The advantages
are numerous:

1.  Your supplies are where you want them
2.  The enemy has to attack, the most dangerous operation.
3.  The enemy gives up his mobility, forcing him to crawl towards you.
4.  You can run SpecOps aginst his supply lines, further crippling his
effort. 
 
>    With mason guns there will be no safe on a planet from arty.  Deep
sites >or "feild artilary" will able to hit targets on the back side of the
planet. > Backing up the mason fire, brilliant guided missles, adn possibly
thousands >of dumb hyper-sonice missle.  On the TL-12 battle arty will seen
death every >where on the planet.

Artillery is the killer, has been since WWI.  Your comment about "brilliant"
missles once again points out that grav tanks will spend most of their lives
hiding in the trees.  

While artillery is deadly at TL12+, counter-battery fire will get get better
also.  During the Gulf War, the US could return fire onto the Iraqi unit
before the first Iraqi shell hit the ground!

Picture this:  You launch several drones, each programmed to look for either
tube fires or missle launches.  When the drone sees one, it reports to its
controller, and then streaks off to the launch site to try to kill
something.  The drone is given vehicle profiles for the enemy, so it can
look for the most important target.

Warfare at TL12+ will be different to be sure, but the basics will remain
the same.  To sum up my points:

1.  Grav Vehicles will tend to stick close to the ground and cover.
2.  Battles around strongpoints will neutralize the attackers mobility
3.  If one side has overwhelming orbital control, the battle is over.
4.  For every improvment, the counter-measure will improve.
5.  The defender always starts out with an advantage.



 
+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:08:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

Doug Berry:
Tanks cannot hold terrain.  this is a basic fact that the Germans understood
in WWII.  You have to put the Poor, Bloody Infantry in to root out the last
of the resistance and physically take possession of the disputed area.
Tanks are very poor weapons in an urban area. their limited vision cripples
them.
************************

Todaies tanks maybe. But not grav capable AFV's with all sorts of nifty 
AEMS and other sensors. Visibility is not the issue, though I tend to 
agree that B-Dress troops are better in an urban environment.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 



------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:02:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #399

> From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 02:52:35 +1000 (EST)
> Subject: TC, LHyd, Miniatures, Lentuli, Copyright
> 
> Dear Folks -
> 
[snip misc]
> 4.      MINIATURES AND MAPS
> 
> BTW, did you notice that the old deck plans were in half-inches, *NOT* 15mm
> per square! (This was almost pointed out by Leonard). The scales are:
> 
>         0.5 map inches = 1.5 real metres
>         15mm figurines = 6 real feet
> 
> Now, 0.5 inches per map square = approx 12.5 mm, when the squares should
> really be 15mm.
> This means that THE OLD MAPS ARE ALL TOO SMALL for the 15mm figurines we
> place upon them!
> 
> No wonder it looks as though you can't swing a cat in any of the ships!

The way I calculate it, 0.5 in = 12.5 mm represents 1.5 m = 59 in = apx
5 ft, giving 2.5 mm per foot.  A 15 mm figure representing 6 foot also
gives 2.5 mm per foot, so they match.  Of course, if the 15 mm
measurement is at the eyes (say about 5.5 ft), you get about 2.7 mm per
foot.  Even so, this is only about a 10% difference.  

I suspect most miniature vs. deckplan problems are due to either poorly
scaled minis or a perception of increased size due to the large bases
(which can't be easily helped).

No big deal, just running on at the brain :)

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 18:20 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #396

In-Reply-To: <9609082004.AA27886@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: jeff_michelle nort <103010.212@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Some facts on the Ine Givar

 Need some help.
 I've been doing some work and I need some ideas on the Ine Givar >>
 
I don't remember any detailed info ever being published. They were 
always just mentioned in passing.
 
    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 18:20 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #396

In-Reply-To: <9609082004.AA27886@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: jeff_michelle nort <103010.212@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Some facts on the Ine Givar

 Need some help.
 I've been doing some work and I need some ideas on the Ine Givar >>
 
I don't remember any detailed info ever being published. They were 
always just mentioned in passing.
 
    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 10 Sep 96 13:38:50 EDT
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

as I read this grav-tank debate, I want to break out my copy of Centurion(the
armour game for Renegade Legion) and rip through a game. Everything you are
describing is covered there, and cleverly so. One possible exception; Logic
indicates that if a Grav vehicle is coming in to your feild of fire while at
altitiude, you should be seeing it's underside, and thusly the care packages
you send its way should impact there. Unfortuneately, the rules say that you
paint/hit/roll-for the FACING side. My pal has turned this into the Loophole
>From Hell, but in most other regards, this game is great stuff. 

Hey, IG! Wanna co-opt the RL rules and use it for ground combat? ;->

------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:14:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com> writes:

> Doug Berry:
> Tanks cannot hold terrain.  this is a basic fact that the Germans understood
> in WWII.  You have to put the Poor, Bloody Infantry in to root out the last
> of the resistance and physically take possession of the disputed area.
> Tanks are very poor weapons in an urban area. their limited vision cripples
> them.
> ************************
> 
> Todaies tanks maybe. But not grav capable AFV's with all sorts of nifty 
> AEMS and other sensors. Visibility is not the issue, though I tend to 
> agree that B-Dress troops are better in an urban environment.

I agree with Tom.  If you think of grav-capable AFV's has being comparable
to a modern attack helo, but with superior armor, weapons, sensors, and
loiter time, then you begin to have a better sense of what a team of
tanks can do.

Consider: a Trepida-class grav-tank has firepower superior to a modern
AC-130H Spectre gunship, and maneuverability superior to an AH-1H Cobra.
A team of these (3 tanks), combined with grav-capable support AFVs (2-5
more units), and a platoon of grav-equipped infantry in battledress,
would be able to hold a medium-size town (pop. ~50,000) for an indefinite
period, assuming constant re-supply.

BTW, even present-day tanks *can* hold terrain if deployed properly.
Read Harold Coyle's novel _Team_Yankee_ for a chillingly accurate
portrayal of tank warfare at the edge of WW-III.  Also, as additional
references, I'd recommend the following books on armored conflict:

"Armored Cav" by Tom Clancy.  An excellent overview of a modern armored
cav. regiment from a layman's viewpoint.

"Warfighting: Maneuver Warfare in the US Marine Corps", edited by
Lt. Col. H.T. Hayden.

"Tank Attack: A Primer of Modern Tank Warfare" by Steven Zaloga.

The next five books are all narratives and treatises on Desert Storm.
  "Iron Soldiers" by Tom Carhart.
  "Crusade" by Rick Atkinson.
  "Desert Storm Ground War" by Hans Halberstadt.
  "From Shield to Storm" by James Dunnigan.
  "Certain Victory: US Army in the Gulf War" by Brig.Gen. Scales.

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.  
   When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
                                 - Barry Asmus

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:20:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

On 10 Sep 1996, Jeffery M. Miller wrote:

> as I read this grav-tank debate, I want to break out my copy of Centurion(the
> armour game for Renegade Legion) and rip through a game. Everything you are
> describing is covered there, and cleverly so. One possible exception; Logic
> indicates that if a Grav vehicle is coming in to your feild of fire while at
> altitiude, you should be seeing it's underside, and thusly the care packages
> you send its way should impact there. Unfortuneately, the rules say that you
> paint/hit/roll-for the FACING side. My pal has turned this into the Loophole
> >From Hell, but in most other regards, this game is great stuff. 

  Hmmm, I seem to recall a different table for TTF modes. It shifts the
hit locations *drastically* to the underside. Believe me, there *isn't* a
loophole if you READ THE RULES (RTFM)! ;)

  There is one DUMB rules conflict though - auto-crashes when the pilot
goes unconcious, for example. Elsewhere it's stated that the pilot doesn't
control the altitude of the tank directly, yet you *have* to ground your
tank when the driver goes unconcious or dies. I've gotten into a few hot
arguments about this btw, though not about this specific rule (damn FASA
ambiguities...)

> Hey, IG! Wanna co-opt the RL rules and use it for ground combat? ;->

   I *already* use Centurion for the basic movement rules for grav tanks,
I use "standard" FF&S/TNE combat rules for damage.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:58:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

Jeffery Miller <Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.edu> writes:
>                                                                   ... Logic
> indicates that if a Grav vehicle is coming in to your field of fire while at
> altitiude, you should be seeing its underside, and thusly the care packages
> you send its way should impact there. Unfortunately, the rules say that you
> paint/hit/roll for the FACING side.

This is, indeed, an oversight and should be changed, unless... you consider
the belly to *be* the facing side. :^)

In the descriptions of aerodynes/AVs for Cyberpunk 2020, the heavy armor
is described as covering the front, bottom, and sides, while the top and
rear are more lightly armored.  Since grav-vehicle basically represent
a higher tech configuration of the same type vehicle, I'd think similar
armor arrangements would be appropriate.

Actually, when you think about it, heavy grav vehicles ought to have
something like retractable point-defense systems in the belly, to deal
with situations just like the one you describe.

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.  
   When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
                                 - Barry Asmus

------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:10:46 -0500
Subject: Combat Tables

Hi, all.  I'm preparing to run my first T4 game tonight (and my first
_any_ game in a few years :) ) and I decided to put all the combat info
on a single sheet to make life easier.  It'll be part of my screen.  I
did it in MS Word for W95 (6.0/7.0 format) and posted it on my Traveller
web page as a self-extracting zip file.  Since it has a lot of tables
and frames, it'll probably be messy to convert to other formats, but
I'll try if I get a chance. (yeah, right!)

http://www.umr.edu/~mkm/trav/travpage.htm

It's got an outline of the T4 ground combat system and the following
tables: 

Encounter Range
Encounter Range Terrain DMs
Surprise DMs
Initiative DMs   (mostly house rules :) )
Task Rating/Combat Range  (as book but reformatted)
Armor (with some info guessed at)
Combat Pools (quick desc. of tactic, attack, defense, and fatigue pools)

A few things didn't make it into the combat outline, such as:
	Special rules for bow/thrown weapons
	Multiple actions 
	other?

It's only got a few house rules on it, as follow:
	Initiative DMs for individuals 
		No. of 4-yr terms in Army or Marines div by 2 (round up)
		No. of 4-yr terms in Navy or Scouts div by 3 (round up)
		Dex/3 -2 (truncated) This gives -2 at 1-2, -1 at 3-5,
			0 at 6-8 (avg), +1 at 9-11, etc.
		 	I'll need to play test this a bit :)

	Ranged attack DM of -1 for non-pistol weapons at Close range.

	For damage dice reduced to 1 point by flex armor, I count 3 such single
points as 1D for purposes of the 3D limit on damage.  This gets rid of
the case of 3D+3 damage when hitting a 3D flex armor with a 6D weapon.

	Some estimates for cost, TL, and mass in the armor table.

There's also a separate weapons table.  I corrected a few apparent
errors and added extrapolated version of the gauss pistol and gauss
rifle.  I also tweaked a few archaic weapons ranges, but I'm still
looking at that in light of the two range bands change for thrown/bow
weapons in the rules.  I don't have that straight yet.

I hope this helps someone out.  Comments on my modifications would be
greatly appreciated.

Later,
		Matt McL

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #401
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Traveller-digest         Tuesday, 10 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 402

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: "Follow Me!"
         2. Re: Ultra-tech battle
         3. Re: Ultra-tech battle
         4. Re: Ultra-tech battle
         5. Re: BITS T4 Adventure
         6. Re: "Follow Me!"
         7. Re: Starship paint jobs
         8. Re:
         9. sustainable technologie
        10. Re: Ultra-tech battle
        11. Executive Orders
        12. Re: sustainable technologie
        13. Traveller odds and sods and other things
        14. Re: vegans and the collapse.
        15. Re: Ultra-tech battle
        16. Re: Ultra-tech battle
        17. Re: sustainable technologie

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:30:20 -0700
Subject: Re: "Follow Me!"

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> You don't know the half of it.  "Follow Me" is the motto of the US Infantry.
> At Ft. Benning, Ga., their is a statue called Iron Mike in front of Infantry
> Hall that shows a WWII platoon leader charging forward.  Even the Infantry
> Center and School patch has that damn phrase on it.
> 
> The theory is that if you run out of every other option, you yell "Follow
> Me!" to your troops, and charge the enemy.  Right.

Sounds like the "Do SOMETHING, even if it is wrong!" school of problem-solving 
dominates the Infantry.

> 
> The unofficial (and banned) motto of the enlisted infantry is: "Have Fun Sir!"

ROFLMAO.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:43:41 -0700
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

Jeffery M. Miller wrote:
> 
> as I read this grav-tank debate, I want to break out my copy of Centurion(the
> armour game for Renegade Legion) and rip through a game. Everything you are
> describing is covered there, and cleverly so. One possible exception; Logic
> indicates that if a Grav vehicle is coming in to your feild of fire while at
> altitiude, you should be seeing it's underside, and thusly the care packages
> you send its way should impact there. Unfortuneately, the rules say that you
> paint/hit/roll-for the FACING side. My pal has turned this into the Loophole
> >From Hell, but in most other regards, this game is great stuff.

RL is a spiff game system that suffered from a number of problems: the over-complex 
damage-by-template system was intended to be an advance in the state of the art over 
the straight-ablative systems of _BattleTech_ or _Car Wars_, but somehow gamers didn't 
really like it. In spite of the problems, I wrote some optional rules for RL:Centurion 
that GDW published in _Challenge_. FASA even picked up some of the ideas from my 
rules articles for the Centurion Terhnical Handbook.
> 
> Hey, IG! Wanna co-opt the RL rules and use it for ground combat? ;->

Nightshift Games/Crunchy Frog holds the rights to Renagade Legion. Nothing new has been 
published for RL is a couple of years, what with what's happened to RPGs and boardgames 
in the last few years . . . . ;)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:29:32 -0700
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

Mark Cook wrote:

> I agree with Tom.  If you think of grav-capable AFV's has being comparable
> to a modern attack helo, but with superior armor, weapons, sensors, and
> loiter time, then you begin to have a better sense of what a team of
> tanks can do.

I remember the original _Striker_ referring to grav tanks as 'gunships.' Not a bad 
anology.

> 
> Consider: a Trepida-class grav-tank has firepower superior to a modern
> AC-130H Spectre gunship, and maneuverability superior to an AH-1H Cobra.
> A team of these (3 tanks), combined with grav-capable support AFVs (2-5
> more units), and a platoon of grav-equipped infantry in battledress,
> would be able to hold a medium-size town (pop. ~50,000) for an indefinite
> period, assuming constant re-supply.

Against what? 

Attacker tech level, the surrounding terrain, and force composition are important 
considerations as to weather the force could hold or not. Basically this is in 
infantry-heavy company team with some attached support holding the town.

Interesting tactical problem you've suggested. 

> 
> BTW, even present-day tanks *can* hold terrain if deployed properly.

 . . . i.e. with infantry and artillery in close support and while dug into favorable 
terrain.

> Read Harold Coyle's novel _Team_Yankee_ for a chillingly accurate
> portrayal of tank warfare at the edge of WW-III.  Also, as additional
> references, I'd recommend the following books on armored conflict:

_Team Yankee_ is to the Armored Force in a fictional WW3 what McDonald's _Company 
Commander_ was to the Infantry in WW2. I'd also recommend Coyle's _Bright Star_, which 
concerns a battalion task force as opposed to a company team. The latter book features  
an armored war of maneuver with the infantry doing the traditional "hold-ground" 
mission.

> 
> "Armored Cav" by Tom Clancy.  An excellent overview of a modern armored
> cav. regiment from a layman's viewpoint.

Also good to read if you're also reading _Executive Orders_.

> 
> "Warfighting: Maneuver Warfare in the US Marine Corps", edited by
> Lt. Col. H.T. Hayden.
> 
> "Tank Attack: A Primer of Modern Tank Warfare" by Steven Zaloga.
> 
> The next five books are all narratives and treatises on Desert Storm.
>   "Iron Soldiers" by Tom Carhart.
>   "Crusade" by Rick Atkinson.

I've read this one; it's a honest history of the war, perhaps brutally so. Atkinson is a 
skeptical journalist from the old school, so those looking for a book glorifying the 
Persian Gulf War should look elsewhere.

>   "Desert Storm Ground War" by Hans Halberstadt.
>   "From Shield to Storm" by James Dunnigan.
>   "Certain Victory: US Army in the Gulf War" by Brig.Gen. Scales.
> 
>         - Mark C.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
>  2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.
>    When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
>                                  - Barry Asmus



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:37:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

Larry Hadley wrote:
 
>   Hmmm, I seem to recall a different table for TTF modes. It shifts the
> hit locations *drastically* to the underside. Believe me, there *isn't* a
> loophole if you READ THE RULES (RTFM)! ;)

Hmmm . . . me too. And not only for TTF; the table covers LAF (I think that's  the 
abbreviation, my copy of RL is not here at the computer I'm using).
> 
>   There is one DUMB rules conflict though - auto-crashes when the pilot
> goes unconcious, for example. Elsewhere it's stated that the pilot doesn't
> control the altitude of the tank directly, yet you *have* to ground your
> tank when the driver goes unconcious or dies. I've gotten into a few hot
> arguments about this btw, though not about this specific rule (damn FASA
> ambiguities...)

That _is_ a dumb one, isn't it?
> 
> > Hey, IG! Wanna co-opt the RL rules and use it for ground combat? ;->
> 
>    I *already* use Centurion for the basic movement rules for grav tanks,
> I use "standard" FF&S/TNE combat rules for damage.

Real Good Idea! 
 
> "Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask
> `what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)

GREAT tagline! I read the entire series of Court Bannister novels. Mark Barnett can 
_write_!

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:50:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: BITS T4 Adventure

On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Liam McCauley wrote:

>      Susan (or Allen?) wrote:
>      > Liam wrote:
>      > >  of the rules (and bought "A Long Way Home" - the T4 approved
>      > >  adventure produced by BITS, plug, plug ;-))
>
>      >        Are there any of these left? How could an American such as
>      > myself get one? What setting is it for?
>
>      Hey, Andy, *wake up*; you've got a customer.

You've got two customers, if it hits the far reaches of the Pacific
Northwest (Seattle).

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
  "One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak
            uncertainty of reason---but one cannot have both"
			--- _Friday_, Robert A. Heilein


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:54:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: "Follow Me!"

On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Rich Ostorero wrote:

> Sounds like the "Do SOMETHING, even if it is wrong!" school of problem-solving
> dominates the Infantry.

If I had a dollar for every time I heard "It is better to do the wrong
thing at once, than to do the right thing later" I could buy a case of
beer, at any rate.

> > The unofficial (and banned) motto of the enlisted infantry is: "Have Fun Sir!"
>
> ROFLMAO.

Ditto.

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
  "One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak
            uncertainty of reason---but one cannot have both"
			--- _Friday_, Robert A. Heilein


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:53:12 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Starship paint jobs

Moin Lewis Roberts,

> A while back people were talking about how starships are painted,
> one thing that I thought of but no one mentioned it, was 
> holographic images.  By this I mean images on the hull
> that appear to have depth, not holographic projections from the hull.
> So a fancy yacht named the Fire Drake, would have a 3D image of
> a dragon on the hull.  

	A holo would be nice, as known AEMS and radar are sending
	fixed length, if you have several ways of polarisating
	these wafes you even make a nice face on sensors ;-) 

	Btw: nice work these TL9 ships.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: amlindt@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU (Doug Amlin)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:46:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re:

>F
>
>>Not not being military and all my consultants :-) are Army or Navy I have no
>>idea about the "Mgy" abbreviation, Marine E9 Mgy Sergeant.  Any
>enlightenment?
>
>Master Gunnery Sergeant.  Not sure how current the usage is though.
>
>
The rank of Master Gunnery Sergeant is for those senior NCOs (the next
lowest grade for them is Master Sergeant) in technical fields (for instance:
communications, supply, admin- in my battalon, we had a Master Gunnery Sgt
in S-3).  They have the same grade as Sergeants Major (E-9), but the rank
signifies a different type of job.  However, in the U.S. military, there are
ALWAYS exceptions...
                                                        Doug

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:57:07 +0000 ()
Subject: sustainable technologie

Hy People,

	I'm just plaing around with the economy tables in World
	Tamers Handbook, I'll upload the usual gawk script to
	my homepage soon.

	From this formulars a planet like Aubaine could have
	an brutto social product of 600 gCr per month in any
	of the 3 industrial sectors. Or its posible to build
	up a Jayhawk any month with only 40000 people.

	I dont know if these formulars where intendet for that
	scale, I heard that there is an older "trillion credit
	squadron" better suited for that.

	But could a 40000 people colony realy sustain tl 12,
	I dont think so. Even if they are not so stupid to 
	produce a Jayhawk any month they need a diversity to
	sustain producing at a techlevel.

	So what do you think about the folowing rules ?

	- no world can sustain a techlevel higher than the
	  population level without trade.
	- It will lose one techlevel per decade. To prevent
	  this you need a controlled economy and an imposible
	  success on admin. (or a free floating market and
	  an imposible act/bluff, if you prefer ;-)
	- Any world trading to sustain its techlevel must
	  import 10% of their monthly maintaince per
	  tech-pop diff for sustaining. As the terms of trade
	  sugests the poorer has to pay shipping. So these
	  maintaince will cost twice for every jump ! 

	I think this will make some limits to the market and
	shows up why there is always need for trade. Imagine
	Aubain has to trade in 40% of its maintaince, and
	tl 12 is rare in the NE so prices for a device deliverd
	from the hivers, the solomanies, the aslan or even
	the regency are astronomical. Better salvage the barrens
	and dont ask from where the free trader has this brand
	new .... ;-)

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 10 Sep 96 17:11:20 EDT
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

- --- Larry wrote:
  Hmmm, I seem to recall a different table for TTF modes. It shifts the
hit locations *drastically* to the underside. Believe me, there *isn't* a
loophole if you READ THE RULES (RTFM)! ;)
- --- end of quoted material ---
I believe you are referring to the split between TTF and LAF. THAT is where the
issue arises. He stays at TTF,as I recall, with a ltank mounting the
10pt-damage laser(multiples, if I remember correctly) with nothing but front
armour, parks at extreme range and hoses down anything that moves. Very
effective. He's a rules lawyer of the old school, and for this reason I no
longer want to play with him. He's designed unrealistic tanks for extremely
limited tasks and wins by virtue of a specific limitation in the rules.

oh, mai oui, I HAVE RTFM.

- -j

------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:23:53 GMT
Subject: Executive Orders

>From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au> 
>Subject: TC, LHyd, Miniatures, Lentuli, Copyright 
 
[snip] 
>BTW, did you know that Tom Clancy is a mate of Larry Bond (of _Harpoon_
fame 
>- - another GDW product). They played out _Red Storm Rising_ using
Harpoon, 
>and then Tom wrote it all down. Did a similar thing for _Hunt for Red 
>October_, AFAIK... (thus says Hyphen, desperately trying to find a link 
>between TC and T4...;-) 
 
Not exactly.  I asked Tom Clancy about this the one time I met him, 
and he said that they *tried* to play out RSR, but that things  
wouldn't always come out in a manner that was useful for the story, 
so he wound up winging it (my words, not his).  However, the naval 
battle for Iceland section was played out using Harpoon. 
 
                           --Cynthia 
 
- -- 
"Alt.gothic - sort of like going out for coffee with 3000 of 
 your weird friends."                         -- Eric Oehler 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---NRA---- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 17:39:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie

I disagree partially. I can see a situation where a world once had a 
higher popluation in it's inductrial stage, but later with higher tech, 
automation, smarter computers, did not need the higher population to 
support their lifestyle. Population growth for TL8 (us) cultures 
approaches zero growth, so who is to say if a declination in popultation 
might not take place given ultra high tech.

For that matter, what of the automated TL 15 research facility, fully 
self sufficient, with its 20 scientists and staff? Sure, they may need 
some new supplies every 20 years or so, and won't have a sustainable gene 
pool, but they 'have the technology' so to speak.

Tying maximum tech level to population, regardless of trage (of *course* 
any planet that *can* trade probably will! we are greedy creatures after 
all!) would not be a good idea IMHO.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: tubs@globalnet.co.uk (Craig Vaughton)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 01:05:31 +0100
Subject: Traveller odds and sods and other things

I've been lurking on Traveller digest for a while now, getting a line on
what's happening and have
finally decided to post a few comments on a couple of topics.

I've been playing Traveller since the early days of the little black box, in
fact so early, Mercenary hadn't been released yet ! 
T4 is still unavailable in the UK, well at least in the Virgin Megastore in
Sheffield, so those of you who have one (or more !!) copies should consider
themselves lucky to be closer to the source than the rest of us. Guess I'll
have to wait for my hardcover.

The recent conversations reguarding officers rising from the ranks was
highly amusing.
Tom Opgenorth's comment on what happens to seemingly normal NCO's upon
commisioning also occurs in the British Royal Air Force. 
Personal experience seems to suggest that a labotomy of some desciption, or
at least heavy brain washing is a pre-requisite for "advancement of ones
career" in the services. 
BTW maybe this only affects any military service whose roots have been
tainted by the British at some point ? Nice job.... shame about the bullshit !


Thanks for the tips on getting paint off old figures. I'll try the oven
cleaner when I've found a few unsuspecting candidates.



A question.

How do you subscribe to the GDW-Beta everybody keeps metioning ?



Now a Wanted/Swap Ad:

If anybody has a spare copy of JTAS #22 that they would like to sell, I
could offer a good price, including postage etc,. Or swap for JTAS #10 and #11.

I thought I'd found a copy on the Traveller Chronicle site, but it turned
out that the list was.... a little out of date shall we say.



David J. Golden wrote:
>
>
>
>        Paranoia Press did an intelligence agents("SORAG"), assassins (title
> forgotten), as well as another set of rules for Merchants and Scouts (title
> forgotten)


>Rich Ostorero wrote:
>
>The "assassins" book was "Scouts and Assassins."  I don't know the name of
the other
>one.

The other two books were:       Merchants and Merchandise
                                SORAG (The manual for the Zhodani
Intelligence Service !)

Along with the two subsector guides; Beyond and The Vanguard Reaches



Cheers, Craig Vaughton

Happiness is Vectored Thrust :---- Fly Harrier


------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 17:59:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: vegans and the collapse.

 I was wondering if anyone out there could send me info on the Vegans?
 They sound quite interesting..

bri <bri@teleport.com>
in the year 2000, scientists will discover that the monkey
who was responsible for the ebola virus, was also responsible for the
macarena...


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:27:10 -0700
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com> replied:

>Doug Berry:
>>Tanks cannot hold terrain.  this is a basic fact that the Germans
>>understood in WWII.  You have to put the Poor, Bloody Infantry in to root
>>out the last of the resistance and physically take possession of the
>>disputed area.  Tanks are very poor weapons in an urban area. their
limited >>vision cripples them.
>************************

>Todaies tanks maybe. But not grav capable AFV's with all sorts of nifty 
>AEMS and other sensors. Visibility is not the issue, though I tend to 
>agree that B-Dress troops are better in an urban environment.

I knew somebody was going to bring this up.  In battle, there is NO substite
for the Mark 1 Sensor Suite.  Your eyes, ears, and nose are better at
finding the enemy than any mechanical aid.

Let's say you're coming after my squad in a war-torn city.  How are going to
find my guys.  Visible light?  We're wearing cammo, and a thick coating of
mud and dust.  Sound? Noise discipline is a must in combat, and even
listening for body noises won't help (battlefields are noisy places, and the
thuds of weapon fire and explosions, plus the sounds of broken water/sewer
lines, nask human body sounds.)

IR?  Half the place is on fire!  Density scan?  Bodies is bodies, they mass
the same alive or dead.  And so on...

Meanwhile, while you are spinning dials and checking screens, I'm getting
into position to put an anti-tank weapon up your tailpipe (or the equivilant).

I don't have to kill you, just make you combat ineffcient.  Also, in a
street fight, you won't have room to manuver when I send three missles
straight toward you...

Never depend on your sensors.  I hunted tanks in the Army, and many M-1
crews found themselves locked into their tanks after we climbed onto them
and padlocked the hatches!  In an open area, I, and my future
brothers-in-arms, will be happy to do our ground squirrel act, but urban
areas is Infantry country.




+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:27:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

On Tue, 10 Sep 1996,  Mark Cook <markc@peak.org> wrote:

>Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com> writes:

>> Todaies tanks maybe. But not grav capable AFV's with all sorts of nifty 
>> AEMS and other sensors. Visibility is not the issue, though I tend to 
>> agree that B-Dress troops are better in an urban environment.

>I agree with Tom.  If you think of grav-capable AFV's has being comparable
>to a modern attack helo, but with superior armor, weapons, sensors, and
>loiter time, then you begin to have a better sense of what a team of
>tanks can do.

Again, there are ways to spoof Apaches.. the most obvious one is to get the
crew to look one way while your Stinger man launches from the other side.
Same tricks will work on grav vehicles.

>Consider: a Trepida-class grav-tank has firepower superior to a modern
>AC-130H Spectre gunship, and maneuverability superior to an AH-1H Cobra.
>A team of these (3 tanks), combined with grav-capable support AFVs (2-5
>more units), and a platoon of grav-equipped infantry in battledress,
>would be able to hold a medium-size town (pop. ~50,000) for an indefinite
>period, assuming constant re-supply.

That's at a cost of about 121.5 *million* credits to hold one fsirly small
town.  I didn't even bother to figure the cost of the troops' personal
weapons.. (Figures from the Regency Combat Vehicle Guide)

BTW, even present-day tanks *can* hold terrain if deployed properly.
Read Harold Coyle's novel _Team_Yankee_ for a chillingly accurate
portrayal of tank warfare at the edge of WW-III.  Also, as additional
references, I'd recommend the following books on armored conflict:

*Grin*  I think I'm familiar with his stuff.. seeing as how I *killed* him
in 1985 at Ft. Irwin, Ca.  Got a signed copy of Team Yankee a couple of
years later.  Coyle leaves a lot out to make a better story; the Soviet
artillery fire is not really shown, nor is the effects of Frontal Aviation
SU-25s roaming the FEBA looking for prey.  Coyle's big problem is that he is
a tanker, and sees things through his Cavalry-yellow glasses, just as
everything I say is tinted Infantry Blue.

>"Armored Cav" by Tom Clancy.  An excellent overview of a modern armored
>cav. regiment from a layman's viewpoint.

Good, but Clancy's political views make themselves known.

>"Warfighting: Maneuver Warfare in the US Marine Corps", edited by
>Lt. Col. H.T. Hayden.

Excellent resource!  The USMC live this "Vertical Warfare" ideal today.. The
thoughts in here would apply easily to gravitic warfare.

As you were.



 
+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 18:11:28 PST
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie

In mail you write:

>         - no world can sustain a techlevel higher than the
>           population level without trade.

I disagree.

We are currently what? TL-8? on Earth. This could be sustained with
fewwer than 100 million people. In fact, when you stop and think about
the number of people who contribute *nothing* to maintaining our
current tech level, we pretty much *do* support TL8 with a (relevant)
population of less than 8.

Consider some of the lower tech levels and this becomes a lot more
obvious. 10,000 people can do a tech level all the way up to pre-civil
war if they have the right resources on hand. But by your rules, TL4 is
the limit...

For that matter, just consider the tech level changes this century.
Wre've gone thru several *without* a 100-fold uncrease in population.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #402
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Traveller-digest        Wednesday, 11 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 403

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Thoughts on Trade
         2. Re: Ultra-tech battle
         3. Re: Sherbrooke
         4. Nobles per Goffin
         5. Sherbrooke
         6. BITS, Euro GEN CON, The Long Way Home, etc.
         7. RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #393
         8. Ultra-tech battle: Clarification
         9. T4 - rules comments/queries
        10. Re: [T96#396] SIDEBAR: Defending Copyright
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #401
        12. 3D Star Viewer at EuroGenCon
        13. Re: Ultra-tech battle
        14. Re: Ultra-tech battle
        15. More Ultra-Tech Tactics
        16. T4 Basic Avalibility
        17. Re: [T96#396] SIDEBAR: Defending Copyright
        18. Orbital Superiority

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 22:07:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Trade

On 09/10/96 at 10:07 AM,  Scott Ripley <abiscott@pop.erols.com> said:

>I hate to mention the triangle trade was TOBACCO to Rum To Slaves.  And
>Triangle trade only works when there is a freely convertable monetary
>source on one of the points.  Some of the most effective trade routes are
>5 or 6 points shuttling increaing value commodities each time

You don't have to hate to mention it.  <g> Tobacco *was* part of the trade,
but it was the sugar that made it a SWEET deal for the merchants.

The most notorious triangle was sugar from the West Indies to New England
where it was purchased for the manufacture of rum.  (Much of the rum ended
up in England, were it was traded for manufactured goods. Some of that came
back to New England and some travelled to Africa to buy slaves.)  The
merchant bought some of the cheap rum with part of his profits and sailed
to the west coast of Africa to trade the rum for a ship load of slaves. 
(The slave traders used the rum to pay off native tribes that were raiding
the interior.)  The slaves were sold in the West Indies to the owners of
the sugar plantations. (The sugar plantations were notorious for working
the slaves to death so there was always a market for more workers.)  The
merchant bought cheap sugar with part of his profits and sailed back to New
England to start the cycle again.  There was potential profit for the
merchant at every stop.

Tobacco was also part of a triangle, but during the heyday of the slave
trade wasn't nearly as profitable.  It also generally had a different
cycle:  tobacco to England for manufactured goods; goods to Africa for
slaves; slaves to the American south and the West Indies for tobacco.  

And yes, there was a lot of overlap and many shippers cycled though 5 or 6
exchanges of cargo in these "triangles."  So "triangle" isn't really
geometrically descriptive.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:31:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Rich Ostorero wrote:
> Larry Hadley wrote:
> > "Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask
> > `what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)
> 
> GREAT tagline! I read the entire series of Court Bannister novels. Mark Barnett can 
> _write_!

   I find them to be quite gripping. Do you get the feeling that he's
writing more than a little about his own carreer? There are also some very
suspiscous references to encounters attributed to Cunningham... <g> DAMN
good stuff.

   BTW, this stuff has me stoked to run my buddies through am Air
Superiority/Air Strike campaign (gdw board game) with some of the
encounters from these books. (Currently on _Phantom Leader_)

   BTW II, what did you offer the RL tactical guide?

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:02:47 -0800
Subject: Re: Sherbrooke

On  9 Sep 96 at 6:54, Derek Stanley spewed:

> The great urban legend up here in Vancouver BC was that we'd get
> mail destined for the Vancouver a mere 150 or so miles to the south
> in Washington State.  8)
> 
> I wonder who the fool was who decided to name the second
> Vancouver...

Actually, the company I used to work for (in the travel industry) 
used to get all kinds of angry customers in Portland, Maine looking 
for our location...  We of course, only had a location in Portland, 
Oregon...

Eventually, we opened a location in Portland, Maine, in part (so I'm 
told), because we discovered we were sending a lot of very expensive 
business to a competitor...

Stu


> 
> Derek Stanley
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:13:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Nobles per Goffin

From: ImpGrAdmrl@aol.com

>Glenn:

>With such a closed minded attitude, you probably are a member of the Ine 
>Givar.

Thank you.  I think.

>The premise of noblesse oblige and the sincerity in the founding of the
>Third Imperium is a premise of Traveller canon

I'm not from Missouri, but show me anyway.  Just cite the appropriate
reference; I can look it up myself. 

>.... don't cloud the issue... 

I'm not clouding the issue, I'm clarifying it.

>if you want your nobles to behave as such, so be it... but don't expect
>others, let alone canon, to follow it. 

I don't expect anyone to do anything; the premise of this list, as far as
I can tell, is that we all run our own universes as we see fit, and take
or leave what is said here.  As far as canon holding that honorable nobles
were really the norm, show me. 

Remember that I don't disagree that the rhetoric of noblesse oblige and
noble honor was extensively disseminated among all classes during the Rule
of Man and Third Imperium.  I'm just saying that nobles weren't in fact
noble.  They were presumptively ignoble, but marketed themselves well. 
Probably some of them really did believe the rhetoric;  certainly all of
them used it. 

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:14:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Sherbrooke

From: Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca>

>Weak traveller tie in: If you like a place name USE IT.  REPEATEDLY.
>Confuse the players with fifty different planets all named in the Old
>Vilani word meaning "New Colony"! 

>My Canada includes at least half a dozen places called
>Amherst-something-or-other :-)

Even the Spinward Marches has at least two worlds named Kinorb, two named
Aramis, two named Heroni, two named Inthe, two named Margesi, and it seems
to me that there are several other names used by more than one planet in 
that sector alone. 

- --Glenn

------------------------------

From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:42:01 +0100
Subject: BITS, Euro GEN CON, The Long Way Home, etc.

Hi,

Just a quick message to anyone asking about The Long Way Home and how things
went at Euro GEN CON.

I'm not currently receiving TMLs so I'm afraid I'll be a little slow
answering. I've called Rob Miracle to see what the problem is.

Just briefly, yes we sold loads of them, yes they have a nice colour cover,
yes they're designed for Milieu 0 but each scenario can be picked out for
use in a different campaign if you prefer, yes Lester Smith himself is
reviewing it (potentially for a magazine review I believe), yes, it's
available mail order from BITS, but I'll like to be honest and say that if
you can wait just a month or two then it should be available in the US from
Sword of the Knight. If you really want it before then (or want a copy with
one or both authors' signatures) then I'll be posting mail order prices
soon, including potential air mail costs, etc.

No, my brain hasn't recovered from EGC yet. Yes, I'd like to thank all the
people that helped (tournament ref's Dave, Liam, Colin, Paul) and
particularly Jo and Lesley Grant and my wife Sarah, without whom I'd have
had a nervous breakdown.

Yes, Imperium Games liked our ideas so much we've been asked to pursue
several as potential products, including a suite of Traveller software.

I'll try to answer specific questions just as soon as I actually receive the
latest TMLs.

What is the message I learned from Euro GEN CON?

=========

TRAVELLER

IS

BACK!!!!!

=========

Andy Lilly
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)


------------------------------

From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:48:47 +0100
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #393

Testing, testing

------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 11 Sep 96 08:30:32 EDT
Subject: Ultra-tech battle: Clarification

Awright, I haddit back-asswards. I looked at his shipsheets last night, and his
deal was have a tank with 100 pts or armour and sheild on the bottom, put
multiple 7.5/6 (10pt damage) lasers with the nastiest firecontrol allowed (+2,
i think), have them enter at LAF, and from a range of 20 hexes put unbecoming
holes in my pretty little tanks. By the time I'm in range, I'm perforated, and
the best things for defeating sheilds don't make much sense under 10 hexes....

Anyway, off-Trav clarification, but I thought I should clear it up before y'all
thought I was an even bigger idjit ;->

- -j

------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 14:58:58 +0100
Subject: T4 - rules comments/queries

     Now that I've had a chance to read more of the rules, I've got a few 
     comments and queries I'd like to throw to the list for discussion.  
     Since I've been off the list for the last month, these may have been 
     done already.  If so, could you tell me the digest number & I'll get 
     it from the archives.
     
     1) Initiative
     The three options given are to give the smaller group initiative, roll 
     1 die and add the highest leadership score and either apply to the 
     whole group or roll individually.  [Aside - I like the way several 
     options are given - it "legitimises" the idea that you should use 
     what's best for you, rather than using a strict set of rules, by 
     showing rather than telling.  When I was 12 or 13, if it didn't appear 
     in the DM's Guide, then you couldn't do it; and if it did appear, that 
     was the only, and exact, method to determine how you did it.]
     An alternative system I have seen used is to make DEX+1D6 rolls for 
     everyone (i.e. opposed DEX rolls), and this worked well.  Has anyone 
     else come up with their own system?
     
     2) Full Auto Fire
     The rules say that a -DM for the range is applied, and damage is 
     doubled (after armour).  There is also a chance to hit adjacent 
     targets, and rules for suppression fire.  Again, I've seen an 
     alternative where the referee simply allowed two attacks.  Thoughts I 
     had were along the lines of rolling once at normal chance to hit, 
     again at 1 diff greater, etc, until a shot misses, then apply damage 
     seperately for each shot.  Unfortunately this adds extra rolls :-(.  
     Another thought was one round hits per number that the roll was made 
     by (divided by the range number, maybe), or similar.  Anyway, what 
     does anyone else do?
     
     3) Difficulty vs DM's
     I like the task system.  It worked well in the games I refereed or 
     played in.  We had no problems with d3's - although there was nearly a 
     heart attack when one player saw a 6 appear when they were defusing 
     some explosives, only to realise it was the D3.  The only inelegancy 
     is the mixing of difficulty and dice modifiers.  Rather than getting a 
     -4 on skill to hit someone under cover, I think it would be better to 
     make the task 2 levels more difficult (i.e. roll one extra D6 for an 
     average of 3.5).  It's not that this causes any problems, or anything, 
     it's just that skills are a constant and difficulty is changed 
     depending on the situation.  To then go and modify the skill roll 
     because of a changed situation seems counter-intuitive.
     What does anyone else think?
     
     4) Called shots
     I found this part confusing.  The method for resolving a called shot 
     is not in the section "Called Shots".  There is a method explained 
     under "Increased Damage Attacks" which talks about increasing damage 
     inflicted by targetting, for example, lungs, but it isn't explicit as 
     to whether this also allows you to ignore armour.  For example, space 
     ork is shooting WH40K space marine Captain (who are reknowned for 
     *never* wearing helmets); if the ork is aiming for the marine's head, 
     does he have to go for the double damage shot (or the tripple damage 
     shot) to avoid hitting armour?
     
     
     BTW, these aren't meant to be negative comments about the game, rather 
     I'm following the philosophy espoused in the rules of taking what's 
     there, using what I like, and changing what I want to.  Overall I like 
     the rules.
     
     
     Cheers,
     Liam
     
     -- 
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 18:21:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#396] SIDEBAR: Defending Copyright

T::>As for looking like TSR, there's a world of difference.  TSR tends to
 ::>steal other people's work, get upset when somebody copies their
 ::>stolen goods, and then defend it...  Tolkein, Arneson, etc...  I have
 ::>no problem with somebody defending their own creation.  Frankly, you
 ::>shouldn't either...

 For what it's worth, the Tolkien estate engaged in a vigorous
 defense of copyright against T$R not long after T$R did the
 same against someone else.  The result was (among other things)
 that there are no more "Ents" in T$R products.  There will also
 _never_ be an authorized Middle Earth product from T$R.

 I believe that this was the first (and so far only) time that
 T$R lost in court.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Closed captioned for the hearing impaired.

------------------------------

From: Tom Opgenorth <topgenor@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 08:46:28 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #401

On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM wrote:

> > Tanks cannot hold terrain.  this is a basic fact that the Germans understood
> > in WWII.  You have to put the Poor, Bloody Infantry in to root out the last
> > of the resistance and physically take possession of the disputed area.
> > Tanks are very poor weapons in an urban area. their limited vision cripples
> > them.
> > ************************
> > 
> > Todaies tanks maybe. But not grav capable AFV's with all sorts of nifty 
> > AEMS and other sensors. Visibility is not the issue, though I tend to 
> > agree that B-Dress troops are better in an urban environment.
> 
> I agree with Tom.  If you think of grav-capable AFV's has being comparable
> to a modern attack helo, but with superior armor, weapons, sensors, and
> loiter time, then you begin to have a better sense of what a team of
> tanks can do.
> 
> Consider: a Trepida-class grav-tank has firepower superior to a modern
> AC-130H Spectre gunship, and maneuverability superior to an AH-1H Cobra.
> A team of these (3 tanks), combined with grav-capable support AFVs (2-5
> more units), and a platoon of grav-equipped infantry in battledress,
> would be able to hold a medium-size town (pop. ~50,000) for an indefinite
> period, assuming constant re-supply.
This may be true.  But why would you want to waste the mobility of the 
tank in a static battle.  Also, what if the town is hostile?  You will burn 
out your infantry real quick, having 35 guys policing 50,000.  Then when 
they get tired, some saboteurs sneak in, and mess with you tanks.  Of 
course, if the populace is friendly you don't have this problem.

> BTW, even present-day tanks *can* hold terrain if deployed properly.
Within certain parameters, yes this is true.  The same is true of tanks 
from WWII.  Tanks properly deployed have supporting infantry and 
artillery, maybe even engineers.  Nowadays no combat arm works 
independently of the other.

===========================================================================
Tom Opgenorth                               topgenor@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Edmonton, Alberta,Canada                 http://www.worldgate.com/~topgenor
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manubay's Laws For Programmers:
  1.  If a programmer's modification of an existing program works, it's
      probably not what the users want.
  2.  User don't know what they really want, but they know for certain what 
      they don't want.
===========================================================================


------------------------------

From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 9 Sep 96 15:10:38 EDT
Subject: 3D Star Viewer at EuroGenCon

Slightly off topic,
    For those of you I met at EuroGenCon who expressed an interest in the 3D 
star viewer
I had on display on the BITS/Traveller stand, the last release version is 
available via
    http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~jaymin/chview
It doesn't have all the features of the one I displayed but it is bug-free.
    Cheers,
        Jo

------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 08:54:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

Douglas Berry <dberry@hooked.net> writes:

> I knew somebody was going to bring this up.  In battle, there is NO substite
> for the Mark 1 Sensor Suite.  Your eyes, ears, and nose are better at
> finding the enemy than any mechanical aid.

Doug, I think your gound-pounder background is showing.  I don't mean
this in a derogatory way, I'm ex-USMC myself (back in the stone-age.)
However, I believe the a lot of fighter pilots would tell you that
their electronic warning suite is at *least* as important to them as
the ol' Mk-1 eyeball.  The problem with aerial combat (which is what
we're discussing) is that the eyes can cover a 360 degree sphere all
at once, whereas properly configured sensors can.

> Let's say you're coming after my squad in a war-torn city.  How are going to
> find my guys.  Visible light?  We're wearing cammo, and a thick coating of
> mud and dust.  Sound? Noise discipline is a must in combat, and even
> listening for body noises won't help (battlefields are noisy places, and the
> thuds of weapon fire and explosions, plus the sounds of broken water/sewer
> lines, nask human body sounds.)
> 
> IR?  Half the place is on fire!  Density scan?  Bodies is bodies, they mass
> the same alive or dead.  And so on...

A properly configured Expert System can incorporate raw data from all the
sources you've named and advise the combatants of 90% probabilities.
Sure, there'll be ways to defeat them (holographic masking, thermal
masking, et.al.), but that's war.  Defensive technology advances at
roughly the same rate as offensive technology.  The problem is that
both offensive and defensive tech improve faster than the human eye
and/or ear evolve.  Believe me, the sensors will eventually outstrip
human senses by so much that it would be foolhearty to not use them.
Perhaps not with today's tech, but certainly by the 3rd Imperium.

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.  
   When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
                                 - Barry Asmus

------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:06:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

Douglas Berry <dberry@hooked.net> writes:

> Again, there are ways to spoof Apaches.. the most obvious one is to get the
> crew to look one way while your Stinger man launches from the other side.
> Same tricks will work on grav vehicles.

Yes, there are.  But with "smart" defensive suites, it's getting harder
and harder.  You can't distract a computer.

This can be both a blessing and a curse, depending upon whether the system
is properly designed and programmed.

> >Consider: a Trepida-class grav-tank has firepower superior to a modern
> >AC-130H Spectre gunship, and maneuverability superior to an AH-1H Cobra.
> >A team of these (3 tanks), combined with grav-capable support AFVs (2-5
> >more units), and a platoon of grav-equipped infantry in battledress,
> >would be able to hold a medium-size town (pop. ~50,000) for an indefinite
> >period, assuming constant re-supply.
> 
> That's at a cost of about 121.5 *million* credits to hold one fsirly small
> town.    I didn't even bother to figure the cost of the troops' personal
> weapons.. (Figures from the Regency Combat Vehicle Guide)

Quite true, but I don't recall what the figures for inflation are for
the 3rd Imperium, or the Regency.  Those costs *may* not be unreasonable.
(Who knows?)  However, considering that in todays "Mobile Armor", the
same compliment that I described (above) would be about the proper size
to deploy against a medium size pop. center, one might assume that
similar tactics would be used in the future.  However, given that an
individual armored infantryman (in the 3rd Imperium) is the equivalent
of a 20th Century tank (from a fire-power standpoint), perhaps only
the infantry platoon would be necessary.  OTOH, assuming that the
insurgents may be similarly armed and armored, I'd opt for the tanks. :^)

>               Coyle leaves a lot out to make a better story; the Soviet
> artillery fire is not really shown, nor is the effects of Frontal Aviation
> SU-25s roaming the FEBA looking for prey.  Coyle's big problem is that he
> is a tanker, and sees things through his Cavalry-yellow glasses, just as
> everything I say is tinted Infantry Blue.

True.  However, his book is still one good look at ground war from
a tanker's POV.

> >"Armored Cav" by Tom Clancy.  An excellent overview of a modern armored
> >cav. regiment from a layman's viewpoint.
> 
> Good, but Clancy's political views make themselves known.

Also true, but irrelevant for purposes of this discussion.  You just
ignore his politics.

> >"Warfighting: Maneuver Warfare in the US Marine Corps", edited by
> >Lt. Col. H.T. Hayden.
> 
> Excellent resource!  The USMC live this "Vertical Warfare" ideal today..
> The thoughts in here would apply easily to gravitic warfare.

Agreed.  I was in EOD at Camp Pendleton in '75, so I spent plenty of
time watching the *other* poor, dumb bastards leap from helos! :^)

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.  
   When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
                                 - Barry Asmus

------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:20:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: More Ultra-Tech Tactics

Tom Opgenorth <topgenor@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:

> This may be true.  But why would you want to waste the mobility of the 
> tank in a static battle.  Also, what if the town is hostile?  You will burn 
> out your infantry real quick, having 35 guys policing 50,000.  Then when 
> they get tired, some saboteurs sneak in, and mess with you tanks.  Of 
> course, if the populace is friendly you don't have this problem.

All very true, Tom.  The bottom line is that you can't pacify a
population that collectively refuses to *be* pacified.  There will
always be guerrilla warfare waged against your troops by the locals
until genocide is required. :^(

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.  
   When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
                                 - Barry Asmus

------------------------------

From: Lan Kelly <CyberWere@ConnectI.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:36:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4 Basic Avalibility

I'm posting this to the list as well as Imperium Games.

As I understand it from a couple of sources here in San Antonio 25% of the
softback T4 Basic books were damaged in shipping.  As a result you can't
find a copy here without resorting to something nasty.  :-)

If someone "official" would respond to the list with confirmation of this
problem.

The next question: Is T4 going to be reprinted?  
If so will any of the errata be fixed?  
If not when could we expect a second edition?
LAN


Lan Kelly       CyberWere@ ConnectI.com      San Antonio, Texas
***********
Nothing!  Nothing!  I've got absolutely nothing for sale.
"History of the World, Part I"
  


------------------------------

From: "Victor J. Raymond" <RAYMOND@macalester.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:52:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: [T96#396] SIDEBAR: Defending Copyright

> I believe that this was the first (and so far only) time that
> T$R lost in court.

Um, I don't think so.  Or, at least, there were a couple of potential court
cases that TSR settled out of court.

1)  Dave Arneson vs. TSR.  Settled out of court for back royalties, and
turbo-charged TSR's push for AD&D as a "separate" game from original D&D.

2)  Chaosium, the Lovecraft Estate, and Michael Moorcock vs. TSR.  Seems that
TSR told Chaosium that the latter couldn't publish Call of Cthuhlu as TSR had
already published Lovecraftian material in Deities and Demi-Gods.  "We think
that the Lovecraft Estate will find that very interesting," replied Chaosium. 
"And we've taken the liberty of contacting Mr. Moorcock's solicitors in London
about a related issue."  (the Elric mythos material that also appeared in
Deities)

Victor J. Raymond           Activist, Writer, Raconteur
3645 Bloomington Av. So.    raymond@macalstr.edu
Minneapolis, MN 55407       612.721.9635
 
"In the side of what had seemed to be a snow-bank stood a solid-looking little
door, painted a dark green.  An iron bell-pull hung by the side, and below it,
on a small brass plate, neatly engrave in square capital letters, they could
read by the aid of moonlight: --    Mr. Badger"   --   Wind in the Willows


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 06:15:18 UT
Subject: Orbital Superiority

Having just moved into an upstairs apartment after 2 and a half years of 
living on the ground floor, I now truly understand the meaning of orbital 
superiority!

<grin>

					---Boyd

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #403
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Traveller-digest        Wednesday, 11 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 404

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: Nobles per Goffin
         2. AD&D CORE RULES CD-ROM
         3. RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #393
         4. RE: More Ultra-Tech Tactics
         5. RE: Imperial Government
         6. Re: Orbital Superiority
         7. RE: Imperial Representation
         8. Re: Imperial Representation 
         9. Expert Systems
        10. Re: Ultra-tech battle
        11. Re: T4 - rules comments/queries.
        12. Re: sustainable technologie
        13. Re: sustainable technologie
        14. Re: Expert Systems
        15. Newbie questions about T4
        16. Virus
        17. RE: Imperial Representation 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 22:16:19 UT
Subject: RE: Nobles per Goffin

In a previous message, Glenn Goffin says:

>Remember that I don't disagree that the rhetoric of noblesse oblige and
>noble honor was extensively disseminated among all classes during the >Rule 
of Man and Third Imperium.  I'm just saying that nobles weren't in 
>fact noble.  They were presumptively ignoble, but marketed themselves >well. 
>Probably some of them really did believe the rhetoric;  certainly all of
>them used it. 
>
>--Glenn

I read an interesting book (okay it was a long and boring book -- I forget the 
title) where this "womyn" researches the charity and giving ethic in the U.S. 
among the so-called, philanthropic elite (rich folks, that is).

There are some interesting parallels to what she observed among these people 
and the debated attitudes and behaviors of the Imperial nobility.  For 
instance, she observed a form of noblesse oblige among the "old-monied, upper 
class" when it came to giving to charities, supporting their alma maters, and 
starting foundations.  

Many of these said they gave because "that's what we do" and "that's the way 
daddy did it and his daddy before him."  She would then assert that the hidden 
benefit to giving to these organizations would be an avenue for the wielding 
and exercising of power for the philanthropist and little or 
less-than-satisfactory actual benefit to the needy.

The point is, (at least from the author's perspective) those actually giving 
the donations actually _believed_ they were operating from self-less motives; 
but actually were benefitting indirectly from their activities.

I imagine the nobles of the Imperium are much the same way:  there are very 
few really *evil* nobles and very few saintly nobles.  The majority are just 
like the rest of humaniti, doing what they think is "the right thing" but in 
denial as to how "the right thing" serves their own generally, selfish 
interests.

						---Boyd




------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 14:35:57 -0400
Subject: AD&D CORE RULES CD-ROM

        I just bought this product (curiosity, since I wasn't planning on
running AD&D) and want to say that it's excellent. Five major books (PH,
DMG, MM, Tome of Magic, Arms & Equipment), with a hypertext reference that
allows you to access the key portions and topics easily. It also includes a
great character creation program, and a ton of GM helper programs including
a Map maker!
Boy, would I love to see something like this for TRAVELLER! (That's a STRONG
hint for ya, Imperium Games!) My copy was $49.95. Add up the cover price of
those five books, and you can quickly see that this was a bargain!
        Iamgine the basic rules, Central Supply Catalog, Starships, First
Survey and Mileau 0 all one one CD-ROM, with a sector generator, character
creation program, shipbuilding program based on QSDS, maybe even a subsector
map-maker and a program for running trade and commerce on the map, and a
starship combat assistant. That would be great!
                                        Allen

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 06:19:52 UT
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #393

In a previosu message, E.Watters said:
>
>Testing, testing
>

<sigh> 

Yeah, me too.  Still trying to get my real estate licence...

<sigh>

						---Boyd    ;-)>

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 06:30:27 UT
Subject: RE: More Ultra-Tech Tactics

In a previous communique, Mark Cook said:

>Tom Opgenorth <topgenor@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> writes:
>
>> This may be true.  But why would you want to waste the mobility of the 
>> tank in a static battle.  Also, what if the town is hostile?  You will burn 

>> out your infantry real quick, having 35 guys policing 50,000.  Then when 
>> they get tired, some saboteurs sneak in, and mess with you tanks.  Of 
>> course, if the populace is friendly you don't have this problem.
>
>All very true, Tom.  The bottom line is that you can't pacify a
>population that collectively refuses to *be* pacified.  There will
>always be guerrilla warfare waged against your troops by the locals
>until genocide is required. :^(
>
>        - Mark C.

Although the Zhodani may have a different philosophy...  :)

						---Boyd

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------------------
JUMP DRIVE components for sale.  Hundreds of remanufactured and gently used 
parts for you to choose from. 5434580430034@downsport.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------------------

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 06:52:33 UT
Subject: RE: Imperial Government

In a previous message, CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 96-09-06 02:58:20 EDT, you write:
>
><< 
>Apart from military presence, how would the Imperium represent itself on >the 
average world within the Imperium?  Would there be a consulate?  A >palace for 
 the local nobility?  Or is the LOCAL government THE Imperial >representative  
for the world?
>  >>
>
>The Imperial government would probably ignore lower population, lower >tech 
worlds. The more important the world (commercially, politically, etc) >the
>greater chance there would be an Imperial government presence (by that I 
>mean
>of the bureaucracy).

So in those cases, wouuld the bureacracy be in a large building in the capital 
city?  Housed in the starport?  (ie. When the players say, "We're looking for 
the Imperial government building," what are they likely to find?)

						---Boyd



- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------------------------
Startown Escorts ::: Looking for some fusion?  We are sure to give you a 
reaction!    				   75430985734@startown.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:22:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Orbital Superiority

Boyd Schneider <HomeBoyd@msn.com> writes:

> Having just moved into an upstairs apartment after 2 and a half years of 
> living on the ground floor, I now truly understand the meaning of orbital 
> superiority!
> 
> <grin>

Do *NOT* give this man any over-rippened fruit!! :^)

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.  
   When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
                                 - Barry Asmus

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 07:28:59 UT
Subject: RE: Imperial Representation

In a previous message, Michael Barry wrote:
<snip>

>     I understand these 'rules' are a bit dodgy, but having a rule of thumb 
>     like this will help the poor Ref who's put on the spot when the 
>     players suddenly decide they want to see an imperial representative :]
>     
>     Discussion? 

Thanks you for this!  I only wish that more of the discussions here would 
result in some suggested rules or guidelines.  I'm afraid that most folks 
willl talk incessantly about military ranks, trade, or fusion refining -- but 
only rarely produce some sort of practical application for those of us who 
know little about the topic, but are greatly interested.  Thanks again.

						---Boyd

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------------------------
Startown Escorts ::: Looking for some fusion?  We are sure to give you a 
reaction!    					 redlite@startown.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:58:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Imperial Representation 

Hello.  This is my first message to this list.  I am a long-time 
RPGer and fan of SF.

Concerning the whereabouts of the Imperial representation, I think 
you would find it near the centers of government, rather than at 
the spaceport (unless you found it at both).  I am thinking of 
historical precedents.  Judging by Pontius Pilate, Rome's represen-
tatives stayed in the local capitals, not the seaports.  Ditto, I 
think, for the representatives of the British Empire.

But of course, the stronger the attachment, the more widespread the 
representation.  If a world is very important to the Empire, I'd 
expect, say, a governor's office/mansion in the planetary capital, 
prefect's offices in all the major cities on the planet, and some 
major finger in the pie at the spaceports, e.g. the customs officers
report to the Imperial chain of command.  Something like that.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 11 Sep 96 14:08:24 MS
Subject: Expert Systems

Discussing the merits of eyeballs vs other sensors in combat, Mark Cook 
<markc@peak.org> said:

>A properly configured Expert System can incorporate raw data from all the
>sources you've named and advise the combatants of 90% probabilities.
>Sure, there'll be ways to defeat them (holographic masking, thermal
>masking, et.al.), but that's war.  

A possible T4 adventure hook here - one of my college friends now works for a 
major investment firm.  His job is to analyze the code of some of their 
stock-trading expert systems and find out how to trick them (the intent being 
to spot and plug the holes before they get used by _real_  market criminals).  
He has described expert systems in that profession to be very good, but says 
that if you have access to the code, any two-year Wall Street veteran can 
figure out how to manipulate computer-directed trading quite easily.

I would expect this to improve somewhat in the future, but even then _knowing_ 
the parameters an expert system works under makes it very easy to work out 
countermeasures to that expert system.

As a T4 hook - imagine the lengths the Imperium would go to in defending the 
code (not the compiled executables) in such an expert system.  And imagine the 
lengths other organizations would go to in trying to obtain the code for 
analysis.  A bit cyberpunk, perhaps, but an interesting twist on a Traveller 
espionage adventure.

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:12:36 -0700
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

Larry Hadley wrote:

> > GREAT tagline! I read the entire series of Court Bannister novels. Mark Barnett can
> > _write_!
> 
>    I find them to be quite gripping. Do you get the feeling that he's
> writing more than a little about his own carreer? There are also some very
> suspiscous references to encounters attributed to Cunningham... <g> DAMN
> good stuff.

Yep...also read Mr. Cunningham's book, too ;)
> 
>    BTW, this stuff has me stoked to run my buddies through am Air
> Superiority/Air Strike campaign (gdw board game) with some of the
> encounters from these books. (Currently on _Phantom Leader_)

_Another_ Strike/Sup fanatic? Aren't the planes in those games a little hot for VN? I 
played in a Sup campaign loosely based in the anime series _Area 88_ a LONG time ago; 
lotsa fun!

> 
>    BTW II, what did you offer the RL tactical guide?

The Medium Mortar rules. They originally appeared in Challenge #45, I think (no copy at 
hand). I also did some infantry quality-grading rules that went beyond the ones 
originally in the game.

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 18:52:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: T4 - rules comments/queries.

=====Liam said:=====================

     1) Initiative
	[snip]
     whole group or roll individually.  [Aside - I like the way several
     options are given - it "legitimises" the idea that you should use
	[snip]
     An alternative system I have seen used is to make DEX+1D6 rolls for
     everyone (i.e. opposed DEX rolls), and this worked well.  Has anyone
     else come up with their own system?
====================

	I agree about the various initiative systems. Not only does it
legitimize rules customization, but also allows situation-by-situation
changes in rules which are very helpful.  
	I thought up an idea for an initiative system, though I haven't
yet tried it:  You divide each side in the fight into "fast" and "slow"
halves based on Dex.  You then roll group initiative and have people take
their actions in the following order: 1)  Winner's fast half, 2) Loser's
fast half, 3)  Winner's slow half, 4)  Loser's slow half.  This is
basically a compromise between individual and group initiative. 


====Liam said:================
     2) Full Auto Fire
	[snip]
     targets, and rules for suppression fire.  Again, I've seen an
     alternative where the referee simply allowed two attacks.  Thoughts I
     had were along the lines of rolling once at normal chance to hit,
   again at 1 diff greater, etc, until a shot misses, then apply damage
     seperately for each shot.  Unfortunately this adds extra rolls :-(.
     Another thought was one round hits per number that the roll was made
     by (divided by the range number, maybe), or similar.  Anyway, what
     does anyone else do?
=====================

I'm not sure I like your alternative.  There's no chance of missing your
main target but hitting secondary ones.  The "two attacks" rule is simple,
but I prefer the "main target and n adjacent targets" rule.  It's simple,
(reasonably) realistic, and elegant.


====Liam said:===========
     3) Difficulty vs DM's
     I like the task system.  It worked well in the games I refereed or
     played in.  We had no problems with d3's - although there was nearly
	[snip]
     is the mixing of difficulty and dice modifiers.  Rather than getting
     -4 on skill to hit someone under cover, I think it would be better to
     make the task 2 levels more difficult (i.e. roll one extra D6 for an
     average of 3.5).  It's not that this causes any problems, or
     it's just that skills are a constant and difficulty is changed
     depending on the situation.  To then go and modify the skill roll
     because of a changed situation seems counter-intuitive.
     What does anyone else think?
====================

	I like the task system as well. I frankly don't understand all this
complaining about d3s. I've used them for a long time in Traveller (for
small amounts of damage, etc.).  If the problem is one of players cheating
by choosing which die is the D3 after rolling, then one should probably
change players.  It's the same problem one has with percentile dice: you
have to color them differently and declare which one is the tens die
before hand (remember: "Greens is teens" ? how 'bout "Dark is demi"?).  
	I also agree that they shouldn't mix up their modifiers.  Keep the
targets constant and change the diff or vice versa, not both.   
	Does anyone else like the sneakiness of making DM stand for
"difficulty modifier" instead of "die modifier"?  I thought that was
pretty cute.  At first when I was skimming, I was confused by the n-
targets with the +n DM's to make the task easier.  I kept thinking "but if
you add to the dice,that makes it harder!"  Then I thought "oh, you must
add to the target, but then the mods should be called TMs for 'target
modifier'."  I went looking for a section on DMs, praying IG hadn't goofed
up something so fundamental and grinned broadly upon reading of
"difficulty modifiers".  Real cute. 

====Liam said:  (Liam said a lot! :-) =======
 4) Called shots
	[big snip]
=========================

I haven't gotten to called shots yet.  My beef is with the snapshot rule. 
Excuse me, but _no_ range modifier based on weapon type?  Give me a break! 
I could certainly see reduced modifiers, but a rifle is going to have way
better chances hitting something at range than a pistol, no matter whether
you take careful aim or not.  Please tell me I've misinterpreted this
rule.  Otherwise I'm simply going to make snap shots one or two difficulty
levels higher than aimed shots and always use the rule for aimed shots... 

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>



------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:53:46 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie

Moin Tom Ellis,

> I disagree partially. I can see a situation where a world once had a 
> higher popluation in it's inductrial stage, but later with higher tech, 
> automation, smarter computers, did not need the higher population to 
> support their lifestyle. Population growth for TL8 (us) cultures 
> approaches zero growth, so who is to say if a declination in popultation 
> might not take place given ultra high tech.

	We currently have a population code of 9 and a modifier of 5.3
	(1990) up to 6.1 (2000) with a techlevel of 7-8 we can sustain.
	In my theory a higher techlevel needs a larger diversification

> For that matter, what of the automated TL 15 research facility, fully 
> self sufficient, with its 20 scientists and staff? Sure, they may need 
> some new supplies every 20 years or so, and won't have a sustainable gene 
> pool, but they 'have the technology' so to speak.

	But how long, soon they have to salvage things to repair other.
	It they are only supported any 20 years, they would need anything
	3 times !

	Only hundret people (scy & staff) can not sustain, they need
	a permanent feed of technics from their home world to repair
	anything what broke. In my calculations they need 98 kCr
	imports if they have production, or 38 mCr any month if they
	are realy Scy's (+ 3 farmers)

> Tying maximum tech level to population, regardless of trage (of *course* 
> any planet that *can* trade probably will! we are greedy creatures after 
> all!) would not be a good idea IMHO.

	These formulars are intended for making a limit to World
	Tamers Handbook, to implement the badly need of trade,
	and to give some numbers at hand. They also show that
	while war some planets must decline in techlevel because
	of suffering trade. This happend in the black nigth and
	also happend in the 1116-1130 war.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 23:19:44 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie

Moin Leonard Erickson,

> We are currently what? TL-8? on Earth. This could be sustained with
> fewwer than 100 million people. In fact, when you stop and think about
> the number of people who contribute *nothing* to maintaining our
> current tech level, we pretty much *do* support TL8 with a (relevant)
> population of less than 8.

	What do you call "relevant" population ?

	Even if you think that we dont need the people in africa
	(hey we are ritch because they are hungry ;-) the pop in the
	industrial country sums up to a pop code of 8-9.

	E.g. the US has a population code of 8 and modifier of 2.4.

	And any population will have people who contribute nothing,
	this formular is not intedent as for robots, but for planets
	who suffer in the long nigth or in the 1116-1130 war.

> Consider some of the lower tech levels and this becomes a lot more
> obvious. 10,000 people can do a tech level all the way up to pre-civil
> war if they have the right resources on hand. But by your rules, TL4 is
> the limit...

	Hm civil war was 1700  (if you refer to US history)
	and TL4 is 1900, they would have production of combustion
	machines but no mass production. but its even more likely
	that they'll stay at TL3 (they have science but no industry).

	Lets imagine those 10000 people would start at TL8, without
	trade they will have a technological decrease because their
	cars/computers/powerplants will break and they dont have
	the industrial diversity to sustain.

	On the other hand if its posible to trade for them, they
	can buy machines and spare parts and export what they produce,
	in my formulars 40% of their maintaince have to be imported
	which sums up to 816 kCr per month. Not a problem for an
	economy which produces 12 mCr BWP. (Brutto welcome product)

> For that matter, just consider tohe tech level changes this century.
> Wre've gone thru several *without* a 100-fold uncrease in population.

	But the scale of economy incresed in the last hundred years.
	While in 1800 the scale of economy was a big city (population
	5-6) it become nation width in WWI & WWII and continent width
	now. Imho SU economy is broken because they could'nt sustain
	TL8 without trade they had to step back to TL7 because of
	embargo politics.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:16:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Expert Systems

Steve Charlton describes how having access to the source code, or even
just the operational parameters, of an expert (software) system can
make it easy for an opponent to "spoof" the system, or take advantage
of potential "blind spots."

> As a T4 hook - imagine the lengths the Imperium would go to in defending the
> code (not the compiled executables) in such an expert system.  And imagine
> the lengths other organizations would go to in trying to obtain the code for
> analysis.  A bit cyberpunk, perhaps, but an interesting twist on a Traveller
> espionage adventure.

Steve, the kind of military paranoid (WRT computer code) already exists.
I used to work for Hewlett-Packard Co., with the Dept. of Defense and
many *big* government contractors (like Lockheed) as customers.  They
bought our technical workstations and our software.  If they had a
problem, they'd demand support but refuse to tell us what was wrong
(specifically, that is.)  No code samples, no on-site technical service,
no *nothing*!  You damn near had to be telepathic to fix their problems. :^)

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.  
   When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
                                 - Barry Asmus

------------------------------

From: "Matt Lewis" <lewis@griffin.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 00:22:50 +0100
Subject: Newbie questions about T4

Although I have been RPGing for about five years, I am a total Traveller
newbie, so bear with me. I have a query about the promotion rules in
character creation in the new version of Traveller, and a couple more
questions.

Say a character enlists in the army, as a private (rank E1), and then
passes his injury roll. Say he fails his commission roll, and
automatically moves up to E3 in the first term.

Does the rising ranks described in the 'Enlisted Ranks:' section on p21
count as promotion for purposes of new skills?

Do NCOs get to roll for promotion in addition to this, and do they
receive extra skills for being promoted?

So in his first term, would this guy get 4 (4 for 4 years), 6 (4 for 4
years, 2 for 2 auto-promotions) or 7 (4 for 4 years, 2 for 2
auto-promotions and 1 if he succeeds the promotion roll) skills?

If the rising in ranks does count for skills, which takes place first
during the second term, the auto-promotion or the commission check?

A couple more unrelated questions:

On some of the Advanced Education options, such as College & Merchant
Academy, the skills available are clusters, shown in bold. My question is
this: does the player get all skills in that cluster, does he pick one, or
does he determine one randomly?

The key on page 183 is unclear on how to mark amber and red travel zones on
to subsector maps. Can anyone enlighten me?

Undoubtedly I will have more questions as I continue reading, and I
appreciate all help. Thanks.

- -------------------------------------
Matt Lewis mailto:lewis@griffin.co.uk
http://www.griffin.co.uk/users/lewis/

------------------------------

From: bborich@gnn.com ()
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:34:34
Subject: Virus

    Just thought I pass on something interesting from an Infoworld 
article.

     Apparently a Fred McLain developed an ActiveX control that 
loads itself on your computer and shuts it down (if it's running 
Windows 95 and Internet Explorer 3.0).
     And apparently this problem extends itself to Netscape 
plug-ins and Java Applets.

     I guess the Virus era is approaching faster than expected (so 
if your playing around on web pages I hope you have adequate 
backups).



------------------------------

From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:47:14 -0700
Subject: RE: Imperial Representation 

Hi, I'm delurking for the 1st time as well.

I play Paul Kidd's Albedo Anthropomorphic RPG, and couldn't help but
think of how the ConFed (the interstellar governing body) operates.  On
'Core' worlds (worlds that participated in the founding of the ConFed)
the ConFed is the government, for the most part.  The ConFed is actively
supportive of 'Inner' worlds (colonized by one of the founding Core
worlds) but does not run the local government.  On 'Outer' worlds
(typically colonized by Inner worlds in the2nd or 3rd wave of
colonisation) the ConFed may have a mission and offer advice to the
locals, but that's all.

In all cases here the spaceport is simply the spaceport (Although on
some of the more independant Outer worlds/colonies that is where the
mission would be located)

My .02cr

Jeffrey


>----------
>From: 	Earl Wajenberg[SMTP:earl@chrysalis.com]
>Sent: 	Wednesday, September 11, 1996 1:58 PM
>To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
>Cc: 	earl@chrysalis.com
>Subject: 	Re: Imperial Representation 
>
>Hello.  This is my first message to this list.  I am a long-time 
>RPGer and fan of SF.
>
>Concerning the whereabouts of the Imperial representation, I think 
>you would find it near the centers of government, rather than at 
>the spaceport (unless you found it at both).  I am thinking of 
>historical precedents.  Judging by Pontius Pilate, Rome's represen-
>tatives stayed in the local capitals, not the seaports.  Ditto, I 
>think, for the representatives of the British Empire.
>
>But of course, the stronger the attachment, the more widespread the 
>representation.  If a world is very important to the Empire, I'd 
>expect, say, a governor's office/mansion in the planetary capital, 
>prefect's offices in all the major cities on the planet, and some 
>major finger in the pie at the spaceports, e.g. the customs officers
>report to the Imperial chain of command.  Something like that.
>
>Earl Wajenberg
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #404
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Traveller-digest        Thursday, 12 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 405

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Ultra-tech battle
         2. ECM warfare
         3. Re: Virus
         4. Re: [T96#396] SIDEBAR: Defending Copyright
         5. Re: Sherbrooke
         6. Re: Virus
         7. Re: Virus
         8. Re: T4 - rules comments/queries
         9. Re: Newbie questions about T4
        10. Re: "Follow Me!"
        11. Re: Java Programming
        12. Aslan stuff
        13. Ine Givar
        14. Welcome!
        15. Grow-your-own d3
        16. RSSC
        17. Vegans remember
        18. Games @#$% Workshop
        19. Bring Back Blair!
        20. Instant Nobles
        21. Canon fire
        22. Starship colours

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:10:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Rich Ostorero wrote:
> Yep...also read Mr. Cunningham's book, too ;)

  Hell, I've *met* him - but that's another story...

> _Another_ Strike/Sup fanatic? Aren't the planes in those games a little hot 
> for VN? I played in a Sup campaign loosely based in the anime series _Area 
> 88_ a LONG time ago; lotsa fun!

   Most of them, yes. But the F-4D _is_ provided in the game, along with a
lot of other low-tech designs such as the MiG-17, 19, and 21. Desert
Falcons has the early sidewinder and sparrow missiles I need. All I need
is a card for the F-100 and F-105 and I'm set! (Time to check the
air.power list...)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: dpost@answer.com (Dan Post)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 17:10:44 PDT
Subject: ECM warfare

- ----- Begin Included Message -----

>From daemon Wed Sep 11 17:02:02 1996
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 17:02:01 -0700
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON>
Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown
To: dpost
Content-Length: 886

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
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   ----- Unsent message follows -----
Received: from maia.answer.com by answer.answer.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Oct95-0918PM)
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From: dpost (Dan Post)
Message-Id: <9609120002.AA13661@maia.answer.com>
To: traveller@NS.mpgn
Subject: ECM/ECCM warfare

I am working on a detailed jump assualt rules. Does anyone out there know how ECM warfare works now? What really is involved ? How do you "burn through" a jamming signal. Any help would be appreciated
		dpost@answer.com
"There is nothing more deadly than friendly fire"


- ----- End Included Message -----


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:15:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Virus

On Wed, 11 Sep 1996 bborich@gnn.com wrote:
>      Apparently a Fred McLain developed an ActiveX control that 
> loads itself on your computer and shuts it down (if it's running 
> Windows 95 and Internet Explorer 3.0).
>      And apparently this problem extends itself to Netscape 
> plug-ins and Java Applets.
> 
>      I guess the Virus era is approaching faster than expected (so 
> if your playing around on web pages I hope you have adequate 
> backups).

  It's like I always said - use Win95, and you're _asking_ for trouble;
it doesn't have half the safeguards it should. Anybody who gets into this
kind of trouble with windoze and has the nerve to look surprised needs to
be educated about REAL operating systems.

  All flames to dev nul.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Mark Nordstrand <markn69@mail.idt.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:35:07 -0700
Subject: Re: [T96#396] SIDEBAR: Defending Copyright

JEFF ZEITLIN wrote:
> 
>  For what it's worth, the Tolkien estate engaged in a vigorous
>  defense of copyright against T$R not long after T$R did the
>  same against someone else.  The result was (among other things)
>  that there are no more "Ents" in T$R products.  There will also
>  _never_ be an authorized Middle Earth product from T$R.
> 
>  I believe that this was the first (and so far only) time that
>  T$R lost in court.
> I don't know if it went to court, but I remember the 1st edition of 
the deities book had Elric stuff in it, while subsequent ones didn't.
Something to do with Chaosim (mangeled spelling, I know) holding rights
with any Moorcock products.....

MAN

------------------------------

From: Mark Nordstrand <markn69@mail.idt.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:37:38 -0700
Subject: Re: Sherbrooke

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> Even the Spinward Marches has at least two worlds named Kinorb, two named
> Aramis, two named Heroni, two named Inthe, two named Margesi, and it seems
> to me that there are several other names used by more than one planet in
> that sector alone.
> Isn't one of those Kinorb's Kinorbs?  I seem to remember screwing up some 
players with those two.  Unintentionally, of course ;>

MAN

------------------------------

From: Mark Nordstrand <markn69@mail.idt.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:51:06 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus

bborich@gnn.com wrote:
> 
>     Just thought I pass on something interesting from an Infoworld
> article.
> 
>      Apparently a Fred McLain developed an ActiveX control that
> loads itself on your computer and shuts it down (if it's running
> Windows 95 and Internet Explorer 3.0).
>      And apparently this problem extends itself to Netscape
> plug-ins and Java Applets.
> 
>      I guess the Virus era is approaching faster than expected (so
> if your playing around on web pages I hope you have adequate
> backups).

Actually those who have been working with DOS (that's Dumb Operating 
System), have been dealling with viruses for some time.  Some just as
insidious as what you describe.  And wasn't a large portion of the net 
shut down some time around '91?  

It would be interesting to see what this would do on some other (real)
os.

MAN

------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 19:04:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Virus

Bryan Borich <bborich@gnn.com> writes:

> Just thought I pass on something interesting from an Infoworld
> article.
> 
> Apparently a Fred McLain developed an ActiveX control that
> loads itself on your computer and shuts it down (if it's running
> Windows 95 and Internet Explorer 3.0).
> And apparently this problem extends itself to Netscape
> plug-ins and Java Applets.
> 
> I guess the Virus era is approaching faster than expected (so
> if your playing around on web pages I hope you have adequate
> backups).

See?  This is what happens to people that don't work exclusively
with UNIX systems?  To paraphrase a cliche, "Friends don't let
friends drive DOS."

...and Mark Nordstrand <markn69@mail.idt.net> writes:

> Actually those who have been working with DOS (that's Dumb Operating 
> System), have been dealling with viruses for some time.  Some just as
> insidious as what you describe.  And wasn't a large portion of the net 
> shut down some time around '91?  

Yup.  That was the "Morris Internet Worm", which took advantage of a
security hole in the sendmail utility.  Said hole did not exist on
all UNIX platforms (HP workstations, for example, were immune) and
has since been plugged.

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.  
   When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
                                 - Barry Asmus

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:04:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 - rules comments/queries

On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Liam McCauley wrote:

>      4) Called shots
>      I found this part confusing.  The method for resolving a called shot 
>      is not in the section "Called Shots".  There is a method explained 
>      under "Increased Damage Attacks" which talks about increasing damage 
>      inflicted by targetting, for example, lungs, but it isn't explicit as 
>      to whether this also allows you to ignore armour.  For example, space 
>      ork is shooting WH40K space marine Captain (who are reknowned for 
>      *never* wearing helmets); if the ork is aiming for the marine's head, 
>      does he have to go for the double damage shot (or the tripple damage 
>      shot) to avoid hitting armour?

This is the one I'm having the most trouble with as well.  Preliminarily 
(that is, until a better way is found), I've decided to let the player 
specify the target of the called shot (head, hands, whatever), then 
indicate what damage s/he wishes to do (half, double, whatever), and base 
the requirements on that.

But I'd like a better method. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:09:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Newbie questions about T4

On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Matt Lewis wrote:

> Say a character enlists in the army, as a private (rank E1), and then
> passes his injury roll. Say he fails his commission roll, and
> automatically moves up to E3 in the first term.
> 
> Does the rising ranks described in the 'Enlisted Ranks:' section on p21
> count as promotion for purposes of new skills?

I haven't been counting them.  Traditionally, skills were awarded for 
successfully making the promotion roll. Since no roll is involved in the 
automatic promotions enlisted people get, I decided they don't receive 
extra skills.  But, that might just be me.

> Do NCOs get to roll for promotion in addition to this, and do they
> receive extra skills for being promoted?

Well, that's not the case in my game.  You only roll for promotion if 
you have received a commission.


> So in his first term, would this guy get 4 (4 for 4 years), 6 (4 for 4
> years, 2 for 2 auto-promotions) or 7 (4 for 4 years, 2 for 2
> auto-promotions and 1 if he succeeds the promotion roll) skills?

He would just get four skills (plus any automatic skills).


> On some of the Advanced Education options, such as College & Merchant
> Academy, the skills available are clusters, shown in bold. My question is
> this: does the player get all skills in that cluster, does he pick one, or
> does he determine one randomly?

He can pick one.  Or, if you prefer, you can have the skill be determined 
randomly.  But only one skill is gained.


> The key on page 183 is unclear on how to mark amber and red travel zones on
> to subsector maps. Can anyone enlighten me?

When making subsector maps, it is traditional to draw a red circle around 
red travel zones, and a yellow (amber) circle around amber zone coded 
systems.


> Undoubtedly I will have more questions as I continue reading, and I
> appreciate all help. Thanks.

I'm glad you joined us.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 22:17:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: "Follow Me!"

At 08:28 AM 9/10/96 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>The unofficial (and banned) motto of the enlisted infantry is: "Have Fun Sir!"
>

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!

That was what I was thinking as I read the official slogan and the
explaination for it!
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 22:17:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Java Programming

At 06:30 PM 9/7/96 +0000, Michael Koehne wrote:

>	A first start will be the Java-Sector Viewer (I think about
>	incorporating trade in it) Also I would advice reading
>	"Java in a Nutshell" this book is cheap and usable.
>

I started working on one of these. I got as far as generating the hex map.
It was DAMN slow! This on a 2 CPU Sparc 20 for a viewing machine! 

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 15:49:06 UT
Subject: Aslan stuff

Hey, did anybody notice that the name 'Aslan' is from C.S. Lewis' boo...

<just kidding>		:P

Would somebody please tell me what a 'dewclaw' is?  Thanks.

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 01:17:22 -0400
Subject: Ine Givar

Hi,
Somebody asked about the Ine Givar, (I deleted the Digest, so
I can't look it up) A while back, probably over a year ago
someone else posted about the INe Givar, I saved it but didn't
write down their name either. (Do you see a pattern here :) )
So here is what they wrote:
The Ine Givar:

Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

Yes, one of my fave terrorist organizations.  I know Loren just
said they were deliberately vague on 'em, but I always got the
impression that they were the Pro-Psionic Rights terrorist group of
the Imperium.  (Yeah, I know, but I started this before Red Star
was ever put on the maps)  My initial assumption was based on the
fact that he very moral Zhodani were willing to back them.

As their groups were at least partially composed of psionic adepts
it made the group very subversive.  Consider.  The Imperium would
need to use what knowlege of psionics it had to fight them.  That
means they use the few trained psionics they have.  Now, as the Ine
Givar will loudly claim, they are fighting for the rights of the
very people who are hunting them!

The Ine Givar had legitimate organizations and lobby groups running
around the Imperium (trying not to get lynched) bringing lawsuits
against the Imperial prohibitions on Psionics.  There were all
kinds of peaceful demonstrations:  sit-ins... marches...  voting
drives...  rallies...  fund raising parties...

And of course there's Saint Sinn's Day on 073:  Sinn was martyred
on the first day of the Psionic suppressions back in the 700s.
Everyone marches in parades, wears something blue, get excedingly
drunk on blue beer, etc. etc.  The Ine Givar have made this holiday
their national day and a great deal of their activity occurs on
that day.  It's the one day where most people feel proud of any
ethnic connection they might have to the psionic saint of Esalin.
Of course anyone who wears red (symbolizing the blood of Sinn) may
be subject to harrassment.

I remember one PC who after learning what the Ine Givar were REALLY
up to looked up and said, "Why are we fighting these guys?  Why
aren't we HELPING them!..."

 ...Then I had the Ine Givar blow up another shopping mall full of
civilians and massacre the entire crew and passengers of a
subsidized liner...  |->

------------------------------

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 00:19:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Welcome!

I'm really pleased to see so many people posting to the list for the 
first time.  Welcome!

- --Glenn

------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 96 05:26:30 EDT
Subject: Grow-your-own d3

>> Or take a Toblerone, mark all three long sides, and pitch it across the table
underhanded.  It's a little biased, though  :-) <<

ROFL !!


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 96 05:26:25 EDT
Subject: RSSC

As as non-contributor to the RSSC, but one who would really like to see The
Finished Product (which will probably be ready before my T4 arrives :(), I'd
really like to see the final, definitive version on a web page somewhere - and
NOT as a collection of web pages!! I _hate_ that! As if i'm going onto the Web
mid-game to run my combat! No, a downloadable like QSDS would be dandy. Please?

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 96 05:26:56 EDT
Subject: Vegans remember

>> Vegans can live to be 250 years old.  While humans can forget knowledge in a
few generations, the length of time that the 'night' lasted means that some of
the Vegans (if not a lot!) who are alive today would have been alive during the
Collapse.  What do people think. <<

I think this is another example of how poorly thought out the Virus-Collapse-New
Era plotline was. It's probably not isolated, either; didn't Darrians live about
120 years each? Come to that, pure-blood or near-pure-blood Vilani (who IIRC
live up to 150 years or so) should have been common enough in the Imperium for
there to have been far less of this "there was a legendary Empire nobody knows
much about, um, 70 years ago" bunkum.

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 96 05:26:44 EDT
Subject: Games @#$% Workshop

>> On the other hand, the nature of a GW store that sold ONLY GW products
wouldn't be all that successful IMHO...  More likely a GW store is only going to
carry fast movers...  T$R, GW, White Wolf, Star Wars & Star Trek because of the
license recognition, Magic: The Gathering of <<

Boing! Wrong! GW shops in Britain (and there are, sadly, lots) carry NOTHING but
their own crap... I mean, products. Sales technique seems to be to wind very
young gamers into hype-hysteria and flog them (via Mum, usually) a lot of very
similar plastic figures and stilted wargame rules. Said kids then probably get
bored with the samey contrived set-piece battles which are Warhamster and
frustrated with being unable to paint their figures as well as the ones in the
window (OK, GW have some _very_ good painters) and drop out of gaming.

Yup, I'm British, and I _despsise_ what GW has become.

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 96 05:26:50 EDT
Subject: Bring Back Blair!

>> The two artists I'd LOVE to see back in the fold are Blair Reynolds (what
great work he did with DGP!) <<

Amen to that! A great artist. Does anyone know what he's doing these days? Is he
available for IG to get, or has Rodge's DGP got him instead? Don't care, any
game system with his illos I'd buy!

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 96 05:26:58 EDT
Subject: Instant Nobles

>> I was working on my first Year 0 adventure when a thought struck me.  How do
the Initial Nobles in the Third Imperium gain their positions? Are they given
out solely to people in positions of political and economic power? Landholders?
Worthys? Or did the Sylean Federation have a nobility predating the Third
Imperium? <<

>> I think this is something that needs to be addressed. There's a great
difference between Duke BlahBlah of the Slyean Nobility becoming 'of the Third
Imperium' compared to Mr. LodsaMoney of Grabbit Industries becoming a Duke of
the Empire - especially as the nobility would be conferred on thousands
(milions?) of individuals virtually at once. <<

Well, yes, but it wouldn't make that much difference to the said dudes. As their
worlds agreed to join the Imperium, the existing "command structure" would be
slotted into the Nobility commeasurate with their power, influence and clout at
the time. So High King Woderwick of Golgafrincham would add Imperial Planetary
Duke to his list of titles, and his vassals would become Imperial Counts,
Knights, Barons et al.  Eventually, the Imperial titles would replace the old
ones because they're more important in the New Order, though the old titles
would get passed down as well - interesting colour to add to PC nobles?

It's not like some window cleaner gets sought out and suddenly made a Duke. Then
again, some high-Soc PCs tend to seem that way... <g>

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 96 05:26:39 EDT
Subject: Canon fire

>> A big problem with this is that an 'official' published adventure can
contradict what your group has created.  This leaves you either branching off
from the common universe, having a sudden reality shift, or otherwise coping.
Bit more work, whatever you do. <<

RuneQuest GMs have this problem, and have evolved a term for it; being
"gregged". This refers to the periodic emergences of Greg Stafford, creator of
RQ and a mondo weird and cool dude, from the mists of his intracranial spaces to
suddenly define areas that have previously been left to the customers to
explain. Invariably, nobody had thought of the "right" answer and everyone has
to take hacksaw and masking tape to their campaigns. But we still love 'im
really.

>> Rousting the local constabulary (in my case, a bunch of 15mm French Foriegn
Legion figures from Stone Mountain) can be done on a dining room table in 15mm;
it requires the game table in the basement in 25mm.  What think the rest of you?
- -Bill <<

I'd prefer 15s if there were enough available. Ship plans are easier to fit onto
A4 printouts at 15mm!

>> Perhaps for an experience system we could use something along the lines of
Chaosiums where you check a skill that you used during a game and roll to see if
you've improved at the end of the adventure.  It's also setup so the more skill
you have the harder the roll is (ie if you have an 85% Sneak, you have to roll
OVER 85%, etc.) I don't know what kind of increment you could use since after 5
adventures you could - potentially - go up 5.  Maybe a tenth of a point for slow
progression or a quarter point if you want faster advancement. <<

We use a home-grown system. Every use of a skill earns a "tick". The GM has fiat
on whether a situation merits a tick or not. At the end of an evening's game,
players may elect to attempt improvments. The roll is a d100 percentage roll to
get under the number of ticks; each held level of the skill over 1 counts -10%
(eg Level-4 is -30%). Failure loses half ticks for that skill. Success improves
the skill by 1, and removes all ticks for that skill. Skills of 6 or more
(except PSI skills) require 10 "ticks" to earn 1.

Good roleplaying that session is rewarded with a few extra ticks for pre-defined
hobby skills. These can include physical attributes - the MT bonus is used as
the skill, and 5 successful throws = +1 Stat.

The rolling at the end of the evening isn't enomously realistic but it avoids
interruption of the gameflow and cuts off multiple attempts at a stroke.

Long passages of time (frex, trainig sabbaticals) can be simulated by 3,4,5D
worth of ticks, either on the skill being trained or assigned at the player's
whim.

Of course, this is all made much, much easier by the database I keep of all PCs
which will kick out  a preprinted "tick sheet" with the skills, levels, and 100
numbered boxes per skill for each character at the drop of a thing you wear on
your head. In fact, my players now have that sheet at the top of the sheaf that
constitutes a "character sheet" in my game... But a sheet of A4 will do fine.

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 96 05:26:32 EDT
Subject: Starship colours

>> If you want to take a page from the real world, you might take a look at
modern warships [...] Basicly, they are gray.  But if you look again, there are
all sorts of interesting details of colour.  Black antennae, white phalanxes,
small splashes of other shades.  My experience with miniature painting suggests
that those small details are essential to a sense of "completeness" <<

This squares with my feeling. I used to think along the "matt black for minimum
detection" lines, but most ship combat sensors operate on things like neutrinos
and density - which make colour irrelevant. In the end we come back to the SW
Star Destroyer - basically grey with snippets of colour here'n'there.

>> Civilian ships, of course, are floating advertisements: great big logos, very
attractive colours.  Coast guard goes for high visibility. <<

Yes. Traders will be bright colours - like trucks or ice-cream-vans. I'd say
that local patrol or police ships  will also be nice and bright. Big, brassy and
overbearing. Bright orange. Yuck! <<

HWF


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #405
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Traveller-digest        Thursday, 12 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 406

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Skills vs Attributes
         2. Sold Right Out
         3. Good game stores
         4. Imperium Map Wishes
         5. Art Critique
         6. Fuel leak
         7. UnFreezing Flash
         8. Re: T4 - rules comments/queries
         9. Re: Good game stores
        10. Re: Starship colours
        11. Re: Java Programming
        12. Re: Welcome! 
        13. Re: Newbie questions about T4
        14. Re: Good game stores 
        15. Re: [T96#396] SIDEBAR: Defending Copyright
        16. Re: Ine Givar
        17. Re: Aslan stuff
        18. Re: ECM warfare
        19. Re: Bring Back Blair!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 96 05:26:37 EDT
Subject: Skills vs Attributes

>> Example:  Stephanie and Vanna grew up together, attended the same high
school, and enjoyed the same things.  After graduating, Stephanie went on to
earn a Ph.D. in Physics (high Edu, high skill in Physics), while Vanna passed up
higher education in favor of earning a decent paycheck right away (moderate
Edu).  Now, if you teach each of these folks the equivalent of Survey-1 (which
uses as its basis Edu), who is more likely to excel at actually doing a survey?
Presumably, Stephanie has a broader base of knowledge because of her extra years
in the educational system. <<

Hmnn, basically plausible, but it breaks down at higher levels. (I don't have T4
yet so numbers are guessed). If the difference in Survey skills is 1,2 points
this seems fine. But if Vanna has had vast experience and long training in the
skill, and has a level of 4 or 5, and _still_ the eternal student over there
gets the better results, I'd be inclined to say "cobblers". Even worse, if the
educated one has _never actually done_ a survey but has a related skill that
confers a level 0 (or is it 1, can't remember), and _still_ has a better chance
of success it breaks down even further!

In almost every field of human endeavour, book-learning is useful but no
subsititue for experience.  Nope, give me skill-heavy tasks a la MT, thanks.

I could make similar arguments for Str or Dex-based skills but you get the idea.

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 96 05:26:34 EDT
Subject: Sold Right Out

So T4 is very nearly sold out? Good news for IG and well done. But, just for the
record, has _anyone_ in Britain seen the damn thing yet? I know I haven't. Andy
Lily? Any reported sightings?

Imperium Games? When's Print Run II? From the sound of things, there's a lot of
folk still waiting - and most copies have gone to cognescenti, not new blood.
The game needs new players to survive!

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 96 05:26:27 EDT
Subject: Good game stores

>> Well, that was pretty impressive to us, let me tell you! :)  They were
friendly and helpful to 13-year-olds for one thing, but being given something
free was icing on the cake.  That definitely solidified our relationship with
that store. I never bought a single gaming item from any other store, until I
moved out of state. <<

I know what you mean. When me'n'my buddy started gaming back in '82, we started
visiting Games Workshop. Ah. I know what you're thinking. No, then it was a
_real_ games shop. Tucked away in John Dalton St in Manchester, smallish shop,
glass cases with leads on show - you sang out the numbers and got 'em in a
little paper bag like an old-fashioned sweetshop. All sortza different games,
and run by _gamers_, not sales-suits or wage-slaves. We became regulars, and
copped for the same sort of freebies as you - I still have my White Dwarf
somewhere, and the Dwarf with No Name... When the first CT Alien Modules came
out (GW had moved to the Arndale by then but were still a good store), they
reserved copies of Zhodani, Droyne and Solomani for us - and hung on til ten
past five as we tore through the rush hour on our motorbikes to pick 'em up!

I still shake my head with great sadness when I see the modern GW stores,
exclusively dedicated to ripping kiddies with their mediocre Warhamster stuff,
and diverting hordes of them away from real roleplaying forever.

Only one shop - the Model Shop - in the Manchester area that I can think of
carries any RPG at all, though there's a good 2-H shop out in Merseyside that
Andy Lily put us onto, and a model shop in Warrington has a few odds and ends
(they still have 101 vehicles and FSSI!). Even the London Virgin Megastore's
range has plummetted. I don't know about the States, but over here in Blighty,
our hobby is _dying_, guys.

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 96 05:27:00 EDT
Subject: Imperium Map Wishes

>> 1. A map of the Third Imperium: I hate to think I will have to wait till
>December to get a map of the Imperium. I have a couple of the ones from >T:TNE,
but I would like to have one from Classic Traveller period. Maybe >IG could a
early example to their web page (hint hint). <<

What would be quite nice, I suppose as part of the Milleu 0 pack, would be a map
like the ones in the _Rebellion Sourcebook_; y'know, showing the extent of the
growing Imperium (and, presumably, the lesser states it swallows and which I
assume provide the "bad guys" in M0) over 10, 50 or 100 years. Give us an idea
where the "final frontier" is this week!

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 96 05:26:46 EDT
Subject: Art Critique

>> Take a look through old JTAS's...  Just about all the major races got their
first writeups from the Keith Brothers... <<

Don't I know it! I have as many of those as I can get!

>> Although, I gotta tell you...  despite the odd spaceships, Foss runs rings
around the quality of their drawings... <<

Quality, schmality. It's taste, matey <g>. Actually, I really like Chris Foss'
work. Most of the early scifi I read as a child had his artwork on the covers.
Being colour art, I don't really compare his stuff directly with Keith stuff
anyway. I was delighted to see him brought in as an artist for T4!

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 96 05:26:53 EDT
Subject: Fuel leak

>> 1. Can anyone describe what that might look, feel, smell and sound like? <<

2. What effect might the sudden loss of fuel flow be on the power plant?

3. Anything spectacular or important I should consider in this "accident?" <<

Nasty. Basically, if anyone's close enough to see or smell they're in big
trouble. Liquid H escaping into the live zone will be damn unpleasant. It's kept
under pressure and at I-dunno-how-many degrees below zero, so a fair amount will
flash from liquid to vapour instantly - expanding as it does so. Another word
for this is "explosion" <g>. This will also flash-freeze objects in areas of the
ship involved, so screens will explode/crack, metal will become biscuit-brittle,
flesh crumble, etc. Any electronics in the area, whether ship systems or
portable equipment, will probably be well buggered as boards crack and
transistor legs shatter (or the equivalent in Trav tech). Laser rifles will be
destroyed as the laser tube explodes; CPR firearms will be unproofed and
probably break under the stress of their own recoil springs. Different materials
would flex different amounts under the enormous temperature drop, and composite
constructions would probably splay apart. Uh, that's most things. Oh, yes, doors
would probably jam shut, warped or coldwelded or both, so rescue attempts would
be largely futile.

Sound would basically be "bang!" and possibly a steam-hose "whooosh". Smells
would originate from the damaged stuff around, though most (like humans)
wouldn't start to pong til they thawed out.

It beggars belief that starship fuel tanks are just one big tin can; they'll be
lots of cells with dampers and shutoff valves. The release of all a ship's fuel
into the live zone would probably kill everyone on board. For simplicity's sake,
I'd rate your incident as a "Fuel-1" combat hit and treat accordingly.

You sure know how to have your NPCs make an exit!

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 96 05:27:03 EDT
Subject: UnFreezing Flash

>> Might it be possible to recover a flash frozen individual?  The only problem
would be that the water in one's cells tends to explode the cell membrane when
it freezes, but also consider that most spacers (accustomed to working in zero-g
that is) contain LESS water in their bodies.   I recall reading that a major
problem that the astronauts that return from the shuttle missions encounter is
severe dehydration when they come back. <<

Not a hope. However dehydrated you are, you still have blood flow through your
head - or you're already dead <g>. When flashfrozen, this fluid will turn to ice
and expand, as will your cerebro-spinal fluid (wot yer brain floats in),
displacing and damaging vital amounts of brain and spinal column. Only Regrowth
(as in Traveller Digest, um, 9 I think, and probably not canonical although we
use it) has a hope of sorting that out. Oh, or magic. Possible PSI healing.

HWF


------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 14:22:22 +0100
Subject: Re: T4 - rules comments/queries

     2) Auto Fire
     
     ==== Charles said: ========
     
     I'm not sure I like your alternative.  There's no chance of missing 
     your main target but hitting secondary ones.  The "two attacks" rule 
     is simple, but I prefer the "main target and n adjacent targets" rule. 
     It's simple, (reasonably) realistic, and elegant.
     
     ===========================
     
     Yeah, I agree.  I still haven't come up with something I'm entirely 
     happy with.  In fact I don't think I've ever been completely happy 
     with the autofire system in *any* rules (I guess Phoenix Command comes 
     closest for accuracy, but... ;-)).  I'll probably stick with the T4 
     rules, since, as you say, it's simple, (reasonably) realistic & 
     elegant.
     
     
     3) Difficulty vs DM's
     
     ====Charles said:===========
     
        I also agree that they shouldn't mix up their modifiers.  Keep the 
     targets constant and change the diff or vice versa, not both.   
        Does anyone else like the sneakiness of making DM stand for
     "difficulty modifier" instead of "die modifier"?  I thought that was
     pretty cute.  At first when I was skimming, I was confused by the n-
     targets with the +n DM's to make the task easier.  I kept thinking 
     "but if you add to the dice,that makes it harder!"  Then I thought 
     "oh, you must add to the target, but then the mods should be called 
     TMs for 'target modifier'."  I went looking for a section on DMs, 
     praying IG hadn't goofed up something so fundamental and grinned 
     broadly upon reading of "difficulty modifiers".  Real cute. 
     
     =============================
     
     Hmm, I didn't spot the Die/Difficulty Modifier bit when I first 
     skimmed through.  A quick look in the index and I had the page 
     references, though.  (Wow, a useful index in a RPG!  I've used it 3 or 
     4 times now and I've always found the entry I wanted straight away.  
     Mucho kudos to IG; if you think I'm making a big deal about this, try 
     looking something up in the index of any White Wolf rule book).  Yeah, 
     cute!
     
     
     4) Called shots
     
     ====Charles accused me of saying a lot [;-)], change the subject & 
     said:=======
     
     I haven't gotten to called shots yet.  My beef is with the snapshot 
     rule.  Excuse me, but _no_ range modifier based on weapon type?  Give 
     me a break!  I could certainly see reduced modifiers, but a rifle is 
     going to have way better chances hitting something at range than a 
     pistol, no matter whether you take careful aim or not.  Please tell me 
     I've misinterpreted this rule.  Otherwise I'm simply going to make 
     snap shots one or two difficulty levels higher than aimed shots and 
     always use the rule for aimed shots... 
     
     =======================
     
     Initially I cringed when I saw this rule, but on second thoughts I 
     think it's probably quite realistic (IMHO, of course ;-)).  Remember, 
     characters are moving, pointing and firing when they snapfire.  No 
     sights are used.  Now I don't know how realistic this is in combat 
     shooting (do you completely ignore your sights, or is it simply a 
     matter of coolness under fire [i.e. I might shoot an attacker without 
     using the sights, but Mr. ex-special forces would be walking round 
     with the butt of his SMG firmly in his shoulder]?), but if you aren't 
     using the sights then there shouldn't be any difference.  In fact, 
     pistols might be slightly more accurate than rifles 'cause you are 
     effectively just pointing your hand at the target, rather than trying 
     to manouvre a long gun with two hands.
     
     Basically, I think that the inaccuracy due to the weapon (barrel 
     length, bullet flight, etc) will be insignificant compared to the 
     skill of the firer when no proper aim is taken.  Up to a point.  At 
     some range, the inaccuracies of a pistol will be more significant than 
     the skill of the person firing it.  At this point, difficulty should 
     go way up (or should I say, you get a large -ve DM ;-)).
     Most pistols (and the SMG, hmm...) have a range of V Short(15m), 
     magnum revolvers are Short (45m) and rifles are generally Medium 
     (150m).  I think I'll look up my Phoenix Command tables and see what 
     ranges some typical weapons become dependant on the inherant 
     inaccuracies of the weapon (I'm guessing it will be about double the 
     above figures).
     
     
     Cheers,
     Liam
     
     -- 
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 06:03:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Good game stores

At 05:26 AM 9/12/96 EDT, you wrote:

>Only one shop - the Model Shop - in the Manchester area that I can think of
>carries any RPG at all, though there's a good 2-H shop out in Merseyside that
>Andy Lily put us onto, and a model shop in Warrington has a few odds and ends
>(they still have 101 vehicles and FSSI!). Even the London Virgin Megastore's
>range has plummetted. I don't know about the States, but over here in Blighty,
>our hobby is _dying_, guys.

This seems to be the trend here as well.  Our local hobby store keeps a few 
RPG's around, but for the most part have abandon them for model trains, 
remote control airplanes and card games.  I have for the most part given up 
on them, and have moved to the web to purchase my material.  <sigh>  We 
aren't dead yet; there are few that keep the flame.


Matthew Mactyre
mmactyre@concentric.net
http://www.cris.com/~mmactyre/
PGP public key available on request


------------------------------

From: Scott Ripley <abiscott@pop.erols.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:15:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Starship colours

At 05:26 AM 9/12/96 EDT, you wrote:
>
>This squares with my feeling. I used to think along the "matt black for minimum
>detection" lines, but most ship combat sensors operate on things like neutrinos
>and density - which make colour irrelevant. In the end we come back to the SW
>Star Destroyer - basically grey with snippets of colour here'n'there.
>
>>> Civilian ships, of course, are floating advertisements: great big logos,
very
>attractive colours.  Coast guard goes for high visibility. <<
>
>Yes. Traders will be bright colours - like trucks or ice-cream-vans. I'd say
>that local patrol or police ships  will also be nice and bright. Big,
brassy and
>overbearing. Bright orange. Yuck! <<
>
>HWF
>
>
>

On the other hand, All these "grey with details" and "low visibility colors"
are not so great when both sides are using the same ship design, ALA MT.  

"Sir - the transponder is battle damaged and our commo is out...is that one
of OUR Cruisers, or one of Lucans....or Margarets......oh, hell, just kill
it...."

Nice, bright paint colors help identify ships. My military fleet is Shell
white and Insignia Red, with Green insets...yes, gaudy (it DOES look better
than it sounds), but No one ever confuses one of my ships for one of my
opponent's vessels.


------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:33:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Java Programming

People wrote:
>>       A first start will be the Java-Sector Viewer (I think about
>>       incorporating trade in it) Also I would advice reading
>>       "Java in a Nutshell" this book is cheap and usable.
>>
>
>I started working on one of these. I got as far as generating the hex map.
>It was DAMN slow! This on a 2 CPU Sparc 20 for a viewing machine!

Well, not to toot my own horn again, but the one I wrote runs fine.
I also fixed it so that it now works under Netscape 3 and IE 3.
(Note for java programmers : if an inputstream object's 
available() method returns 0, it doesn't necessarily mean end of file. 
grunt.)

http://www.magmacom.com/~ehenry/traveller

By my rough timings, the viewer applet takes ~45 seconds to load
(486/50, 16 m RAM, ISDN line) and under 5 seconds to generate a new 
subsector map. The map shows hexes, planets, starport ratings and
gas giants. Pretty simple, but I doubt that adding stuff would
slow it down much. Oh, it's Win95 too. I've run it on  some
stock Sparc 4s and 5s and it runs great on those.

Ethan


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:36:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Welcome! 

Thank you.

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:16:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Newbie questions about T4

>> Say a character enlists in the army, as a private (rank E1), and then
>> passes his injury roll. Say he fails his commission roll, and
>> automatically moves up to E3 in the first term.
>> 
>> Does the rising ranks described in the 'Enlisted Ranks:' section on p21
>> count as promotion for purposes of new skills?

I have a stupid question.   I didn't notice the 'Enlisted Ranks' Section
verbage on auto-promotion.  This doesn't apply to the O# ranks only to the
E# ranks, correct?


>I haven't been counting them.  Traditionally, skills were awarded for 
>successfully making the promotion roll. Since no roll is involved in the 
>automatic promotions enlisted people get, I decided they don't receive 
>extra skills.  But, that might just be me.

What about for the non ranked careers?


Paul  {tiger}
http://www.datasync.com/~tiger


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:27:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Good game stores 

In my part of the US (New England), RPGs are usually sold in comic-book
stores, which also sell gaming miniatures, card games, and miscellaneous 
spinoff baubles.  Some hobby shops also sell RPGs, but most do not.

I can't say I've noticed RPGs dying out.  They have declined from their 
peak in the early to mid '80s, but the decline seems to have leveled out.
I *have* noticed that lots of the new RPGs are very rules-light.  The 
emphasis is on dramatics and storytelling rather than on mechanics.  
I have the impression that the dramatics has stayed in the RPG realm 
and the mechanics has migrated to the new card-game realm.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:44:29 -0700
Subject: Re: [T96#396] SIDEBAR: Defending Copyright

The Chaosium copyrights were due to them having Call of Cthulhu & Elric games. 
 I don't know if they were actually out at the time, but they were probably 
working on them!  

Matt

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:56:12 -0800
Subject: Re: Ine Givar

On 12 Sep 96 at 1:17, Lewis Roberts spewed:

> Hi,
> So here is what they wrote:
> The Ine Givar:
> 
> Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?

Yes...  To outsiders, they're terrorists.  In their minds, they're 
freedom fighters.  Isn't this usually the way?  I guess the best 
answer is take your pick...they're vague enough in canon to be 
whatever you want them to be.  I've chosen to have them be both, 
depending on your point of view...  Then again, I love creating moral 
dilemmas for PC's, so this is probably just a manifestation of my 
tendencies...

> Yes, one of my fave terrorist organizations.  I know Loren just said
> they were deliberately vague on 'em, but I always got the impression
> that they were the Pro-Psionic Rights terrorist group of the
> Imperium.  (Yeah, I know, but I started this before Red Star was
> ever put on the maps)  My initial assumption was based on the fact
> that he very moral Zhodani were willing to back them.

Actually, canon suggests that they stopped backing them after the 5th 
Frontier War.  Probably a marriage of convenience more than anything, 
after all the Zhodani also align with the Sword Worlds and Vargr, 
neither of which have a high opinion of Psionics either...

<a long, and very interesting take on the Ine Givar SNIPPED>

Canon on the subject is vague enough that they are basically whatever 
you want them to be.  Your take is definitely different than mine, 
but interesting...

I always looked at them as a red herring, a much smaller group than 
they would like you to believe.  Being the PLO or IRA of their time 
(at least in visibility), I think a lot of acts of terrorism that 
could probably be better attributed to others would often be blamed 
on them instead...  I saw the Zhodani thing as a "enemy of my enemy 
is my friend" sort of thing...

I viewed them as kind of a nihilist, anti-interstellar government 
group, with some radical political leanings (kind of 58th century, 
quasi-Marxist leanings).

I basically had their general criticisms of the Imperium being:

1. The laissez-faire attitude of the Imperium towards member worlds
2. Opposition to Imperial involvement in interstellar affairs in 
general, and the Frontier Wars in particular...
3. Opposition to the Imperial Feudal system in general, and the 
existence of nobility in particular...

I had them doing things like blowing up starport facilities, 
maintenance yards, office buildings for interstellar commerce related 
companies, assassination attempts on the local nobility, etc.

I left their aims intentionally ambiguous, because I don't think they 
would have thought these things through as well...  Since I had them 
being an anti-interstellar government group, I made it even more 
ambiguous as to what they were by making their aims, and methods 
slightly different from world to world...

Made it more of a challenge for the PC's in the 1 campaign I did with 
them to figure out their MO that way...because they really hadn't 
thought it all the way through either...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:05:11 -0800
Subject: Re: Aslan stuff

On 11 Sep 96 at 15:49, Boyd Schneider spewed:

> Would somebody please tell me what a 'dewclaw' is?  Thanks.

Dewclaw is a claw that grows in the middle of the Aslan "hand", 
literally where the palm is on a human.  Like Terran cats, the Aslan 
have claws which can retract or reveal itself in defense.  The dewclaw 
acts as a short bladed weapon in combat (don't have the exact stats on 
me at the moment), and the Aslan learn to use it in place of the 
usual brawling skill.  Control of the dewclaw retraction is 
SEMI-voluntary.  Usually, the Aslan control when it reveals or hides 
in the palm.  Sometimes, during times of great personal stress, they 
lose the ability, and it reveals itself automatically.

It is often the weapon of choice in Aslan duels...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Richard Lay <lay@cod.nosc.mil>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 08:44:58 PDT
Subject: Re: ECM warfare

Dan Post wrote:
>I am working on a detailed jump assualt rules. Does anyone out there know
how ECM warfare works now? What really is involved ? How do you "burn
through" a jamming signal. Any help would be appreciated
>		dpost@answer.com

Skolnik says it best.  "Increasing the radar energy in the direction of the
jammer in the hope of increasing the radar echo power above the jamming
noise is called burnthrough.  This may be accomplished with reserve
transmitter power or by dwelling longer in the direction of the jammer.
Dwelling longer on a target reduces the data rate, and thus can degrade the
overall radar performance.  A significant reduction in data rate generally
is not desirable.  Dependence on burnthrough as a major ECCM tactic is
questionable.  It should be used where cost-effective and where the
reduction in data rate is tolerable."

Other points.
"Multiple radars viewing the same coverage in a coordinated manner can
provide some benefit against a jammer since it is unlikely that jamming
power can be distributed uniformly in space.  With netting of radars, those
radars with less jamming can provide target data for radars with more
jamming.  Multiple radar sites also allow a jammer to be located by
triangulation when main-beam jamming denies a direct measurement of range.
This may be a satisfactory tactic for one or a few jammers, but
triangulation cannot be used with a large number of jammers because of the
generation of ghost targets.  N jammers can produce N^2 - N ghost targets
when two radars attempt triangulation."

This is all from the book "Introduction to Radar Systems," 2nd ed., 1980, by
Merril I. Skolnik.

Rich


------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:09:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Bring Back Blair!

Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM> writes:

> >> The two artists I'd LOVE to see back in the fold are Blair Reynolds (what
> great work he did with DGP!) <<
> 
> Amen to that! A great artist. Does anyone know what he's doing these days?
> Is he available for IG to get, or has Rodge's DGP got him instead? Don't
> care, any game system with his illos I'd buy!

*DAMN RIGHT*!!  I hadn't wanted to ruffle any feathers before, but now
that the subject has been broached...

I've *never* really cared for Chris Foss's style and ol' whats-is-name
was fine for SnarkQuest in _Dragon_ magazine, but I just don't think
he's cut out to do Traveller.  I was doing OK on my first pass through
the new T4 book until I got to the pages containing illustrations of
the space and starships.  *GAAGH*!!  I want my Beowolf-class free trader
back!  and the far trader!  and the subsidized merchant!  and, and...
well, you get the idea.  Frankly, seeing those new illustrations is a
bit like walking into a chruch and discovering that the standard design
for a crucifix had been re-do: Christ now is always seen wearing a
leisure suit. :^/

As for Blair Reynolds, I know that he's just finished doing the new
cover art for Pagan Publishing's new _Delta_Green_ supplement for
_Call_of_Cthulhu_.  Beyond that, I'm not sure.

In my dream version of Traveller, we'd have all the artists that DGP used
for their Alien Modules (_Cogs_n_Dogs_ and _Cats_n_Rats_), we'd have an
Imperium the runs up to around the end of the 5th Frontier War, and I
don't really *care* what rules set we use, as long as it has one of the
better task resolution systems and a decent model for vehicle/ship design.

But I digress... :^)

BTW, someone else said it recently and I'll second the motion:

"Brzzk for Emperor!!"

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.  
   When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
                                 - Barry Asmus

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #406
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Traveller-digest        Thursday, 12 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 407

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. [T96#405] SIDEBAR: Defending Copyright
         2. Thoughts On The Nobility In The Traveller Universe
         3. Re: Sold Right Out
         4. In Defense of Foss
         5. RE: Aslan stuff
         6. T4 initiative discussion
         7. Re: Orbital Superiority
         8. Re: Bring Back Blair!
         9. Re: Starship colours 
        10. Re: In Defense of Foss
        11. Re: Expert Systems
        12. Re: Ultra-tech battle
        13. Re: Newbie questions about T4
        14. Re: Good game stores
        15. Re: In Defense of Foss
        16. Re: Good games stores
        17. Re: Grow-your-own d3
        18. Re: Sold Right Out

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:23:29 -0500
Subject: [T96#405] SIDEBAR: Defending Copyright

>Mark Nordstrand WROTE:
>
>JEFF ZEITLIN wrote:

>>  For what it's worth, the Tolkien estate engaged in a vigorous
>>  defense of copyright against T$R not long after T$R did the
>>  same against someone else.  The result was (among other things)
>>  that there are no more "Ents" in T$R products.  There will also
>>  _never_ be an authorized Middle Earth product from T$R.
>>
>>  I believe that this was the first (and so far only) time that
>>  T$R lost in court.
>> I don't know if it went to court, but I remember the 1st edition of

>the deities book had Elric stuff in it, while subsequent ones didn't.
>Something to do with Chaosim (mangeled spelling, I know) holding rights
>with any Moorcock products.....

What first tipped off the Tolkien estate to copyright infringement in D&D
was the fact that the first editions of D&D had _Hobbit_ as a character
race.  A friend of mine owns a first edition of D&D, so I know this to be
fact...  The Tolkien Estate didn't have to look any further than that to
fire up the laywers into sending them a letter.  I hadn't heard that they
had enfringed on Ent's as well.  But then again I don't get much chance to
look through his set (it's worth $o much ca$h!!!)  I know that after the
first (couple of) edition(s) they were refered to as Tre-Ent's.

While there is ample "fairy tale" evidence for Dwarf's, Elves, Goblin's,
Talking Tree's, etc.  Hobbit and Ent's are Tolkien's names and hence
protected.  Just like I can't name my Super-Spy character James Bond or
Matt Helm in a novel I write.

I don't know if this incident or the Cthulu/Elric incidents ever went to
court...  Most of the time a simple letter is enough to get people to stop
infringement.  Sometimes if the party who's property was infringed wishes
to extract damages it will be necessary to at least go through the legal
motions of sueing in order to force an acceptable out of court settlement.
But it rarely comes down to an actual trial.

I'm not sure but Dave Arneson's case may have actually gone to trial.  I
heard that Gary Gygax's Dangerous Journeys, published by GDW, was in some
legal difficulty from T$R at one point.  Something about Gygax doing some
of the work while still at T$R (what I heard, may not be actual)...  It
seems that it was discountinued rather abruptly, but that could have been
GDW's fincial difficulties...

Chuck


___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/




------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:28:18 -0700
Subject: Thoughts On The Nobility In The Traveller Universe

After having watched the discussions of Year 0 and the role and nature =
of the nobility in Traveller I took some time to study feudalism as it =
has existed in our own history.  Here follows a few opinions on the =
discussion.

I believe that a monolithic nobility all serving at the pleasure of the =
Emperor is not as strong a realm for adventure and conflict as Traveller =
deserves, especially in Year 0.
The history of feudalism and nobility is filled with divided loyalties, =
subinfeudation and the richness of history that extends from such a =
situation.

1.  An example of subinfeudation and divided loyalties from a current =
campaign set in the post-virus era follows:

Lord Bertrand Charles Worchester is a Baron of the Imperial Court at =
Mora serving without a fief at the bloody edge of the newly reformed =
Imperium in Vland Sector. He is a Baron by the grace of the newly =
proclaimed Emperor (who most recently was simply Regent.) Before the =
Emperor made him a Baron he was a Knight Commander of the Order of =
Imperial Regency and therefore sworn to the Sovereign of the Order (who =
is not the Emperor.) He operates in Vland Sector which is the =
jurisdiction of a Duke sworn to the Archduke of Rylanor. The Duke was =
recently assassinated and if they Duchess, his wife, names him a Count =
and provides Lord Worchester with a fief then he will then be sworn to =
her also.

What do we have? A man sworn to the Sovereign of a Order, the Emperor, =
and soon perhaps, to a Duchess. A situation ripe for intrigue, conflict =
and adventure. Also a situation which mirrors the conflicting loyalties =
of our own western medieval history.

2.  A comment about what this would mean for the fighting forces of the =
Imperium.

Most Traveller materials take for granted a monolithic Imperial Navy and =
Marine.  One of the duties of a feudal lord was to raise and maintain =
troops to serve his liege in times of conflict. If we take the =
historical situation and extend it to the Traveller Universe we would =
then have the naval units and marine forces of the Duchy of Park called =
to service of the emperor. These forces would include the ships and men =
raised by Count Parquad and Baron Nivar all wearing distinctive insignia =
and flying the colors of their liege.

Just some thoughts.

------------------------------

From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 18:33:22 +0200
Subject: Re: Sold Right Out

Hugh Foster wrote:
> 
> So T4 is very nearly sold out? Good news for IG and well done. But, just for the
> record, has _anyone_ in Britain seen the damn thing yet? I know I haven't. Andy
> Lily? Any reported sightings?
> 
> Imperium Games? When's Print Run II? From the sound of things, there's a lot of
> folk still waiting - and most copies have gone to cognescenti, not new blood.
> The game needs new players to survive!
> 
> HWF

Well I got my copy from a shop here in Norway about two or three weeks
after the 
first ones got theirs in USA, so I guess they should be available in
Great Britain.
The good news here from Norway is that the 4-four-copies was sold out in
one hour.

I want to apolegize to IG for my sceptecism toward T4 at one point and
say that I 
think T4 looks good so far. I haven't read the hole book, some parts
I've just 
look through. I like the artwork, except for the all-terrain vehicle and
the weapons
(but that has been said allready by many people on this list :-).

As some of you might know I maintain an alternate setting for Traveller
on the page
http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html  The setting is named The
Terran
Confederation. I have know been made aware that there is a time periode
for Traveller
that is named exactly the same. I just want to point out that my setting
has nothing
to do with IG's offical (atleast thats what I guess it will be)
timeperiode. If anybody
thinks I should change the name, feel free to mail me your opinion or
voice here
at the list.

- -- 
Tommy Grav 
Email: tommyg@ifi.uio.no
WWW-Page: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html
"Sooner or later the worst set of circumstances are bound to occur."

------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 12 Sep 96 12:55:29 EDT
Subject: In Defense of Foss

The man is God where fantastic, possibly technically unsupportable space art is
concerned. He may not illustrate the Traveller Image in the way y'all imagined
it (I'll admit, it came as a surprise to me, too), but for my part, I can't
look at one of his paintings without taking a moment to let the mind run free
with the image involved.

I don't know ART, but I know what I like. We don't need to drag down the people
involved just because some of us don't agree with how it fits into the Word Of
The Year, "CANON".

<rant mode off. Emergency cooling system activated>

- -j 

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 05:10:43 UT
Subject: RE: Aslan stuff

In a previous message, Stewart L. Dollar said:

>>>Dewclaw is a claw that grows in the middle of the Aslan "hand", 
literally where the palm is on a human.  Like Terran cats, the Aslan 
<snip>
usual brawling skill.  Control of the dewclaw retraction is 
SEMI-voluntary.  Usually, the Aslan control when it reveals or hides 
in the palm.  Sometimes, during times of great personal stress, they 
lose the ability, and it reveals itself automatically.<<<

Thanks, Stu; but does this interfere with their use of other 
weapons/devices/equipment (ie. during times of stress?).

						---Boyd

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -----------------
JUMP DRIVE components for sale.  Hundreds of remanufactured 
and gently used parts for you to choose from.    edh@starport.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -----------------

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:17:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: T4 initiative discussion

Hi.

>From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
>Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 14:58:58 +0100
>Subject: T4 - rules comments/queries

Liam said:

>     1) Initiative
	[deletia]
>     An alternative system I have seen used is to make DEX+1D6 rolls for 
>     everyone (i.e. opposed DEX rolls), and this worked well.  Has anyone 
>     else come up with their own system?

	I've come up with my own, inspired by CT and the MT task duration
rules. I basically tell my players that all all combat is resolved
simultaneously. When this causes a problem, for instance when two
characters both shoot and kill each other, it can become an issue as to
who fired first. I then have both players roll 3 dice and subtract their
skill levels; lower score goes first. If both scores are equal, then I
rule that the original result (both characters are killed) stands.
	This system has some potential for both chaos and abuse, but neither
has ever been a problem with my players. 
	It can add a delicious amount of suspense to certain die rolls...

>     2) Full Auto Fire
	[deletia]
>     by (divided by the range number, maybe), or similar.  Anyway, what 
>     does anyone else do?

	I still use the old Striker rules, but then I'm a crusty old
fogey.

>     3) Difficulty vs DM's
>     I like the task system.  It worked well in the games I refereed or 
	[deletia]
>     What does anyone else think?

	I agree with everything you said.

>     Cheers,
>     Liam

	Good gaming,
	Rob


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:11:56 -0800
Subject: Re: Orbital Superiority

On 11 Sep 96 at 12:22, Mark Cook spewed:

> Boyd Schneider <HomeBoyd@msn.com> writes:
> 
> > Having just moved into an upstairs apartment after 2 and a half
> > years of living on the ground floor, I now truly understand the
> > meaning of orbital superiority!
> > 
> > <grin>
> 
> Do *NOT* give this man any over-rippened fruit!! :^)

Or worse still, virus infected rocks moving at a constant rate of .5C...

:-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:20:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Bring Back Blair!

Mark Cook said:
> As for Blair Reynolds, I know that he's just finished doing the new
> cover art for Pagan Publishing's new _Delta_Green_ supplement for
> _Call_of_Cthulhu_.  Beyond that, I'm not sure.

Beyond that he's been taking a hiatus somewhere in the far north (Alaska?)
ok - far north to me. He's also signed on to do some artwork for biohazard
games & their new vision - Blue Planet.

     http://www.biohazardgames.com/

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:08:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Starship colours 

 "Nice, bright paint colors help identify ships. My military fleet is Shell
  white and Insignia Red, with Green insets...yes, gaudy (it DOES look better
  than it sounds), but No one ever confuses one of my ships for one of my
  opponent's vessels."

Now you know how the art of heraldry started and why troops get so 
wrought up over their flags.

Going back to the hi-tech side of it, if being black or grey is really 
a tactical advantage, ships could have chameleon coats and either be 
black or fly their colors as indicated.  (Or fly false colors.)

Earl



------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:22:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: In Defense of Foss

Jeffery Miller writes (regarding Chris Foss):

> The man is God where fantastic, possibly technically unsupportable space art
> is concerned.                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think you picked the key word there, Jeff.  Almost everything he draws
looks *bent*.  Give me Ron Cobb or Blair *any* day.

>               He may not illustrate the Traveller Image in the way y'all
> imagined it (I'll admit, it came as a surprise to me, too), but for my part,
> I can't look at one of his paintings without taking a moment to let the
> mind run free with the image involved.

Me too, although my thoughts tend along the lines of "Buy this man a level
and a plumb-bob, *PLEASE*!"

> I don't know ART, but I know what I like.

Ditto, and it *ain't* Foss.

>                                           We don't need to drag down the
> people involved just because some of us don't agree with how it fits into
> the Word Of The Year, "CANON".

Of course we don't *need* to.  What's your point? :^)

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.  
   When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
                                 - Barry Asmus

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:32:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Expert Systems

Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:
> 
> Discussing the merits of eyeballs vs other sensors in combat, Mark Cook
> <markc@peak.org> said:
> 
> >A properly configured Expert System can incorporate raw data from all the
> >sources you've named and advise the combatants of 90% probabilities.
> >Sure, there'll be ways to defeat them (holographic masking, thermal
> >masking, et.al.), but that's war.
> 
> A possible T4 adventure hook here - one of my college friends now works for a
> major investment firm.  His job is to analyze the code of some of their
> stock-trading expert systems and find out how to trick them (the intent being
> to spot and plug the holes before they get used by _real_  market criminals).
> He has described expert systems in that profession to be very good, but says
> that if you have access to the code, any two-year Wall Street veteran can
> figure out how to manipulate computer-directed trading quite easily.

Reference: _Debt of Honor_, by the ever-present Tom Clancy.

> 
> I would expect this to improve somewhat in the future, but even then _knowing_
> the parameters an expert system works under makes it very easy to work out
> countermeasures to that expert system.
> 
> As a T4 hook - imagine the lengths the Imperium would go to in defending the
> code (not the compiled executables) in such an expert system.  And imagine the
> lengths other organizations would go to in trying to obtain the code for
> analysis.  A bit cyberpunk, perhaps, but an interesting twist on a Traveller
> espionage adventure.


Just keep the 'punk' element out of it, and you have a basic industrial-espionage 
scenario. Then again, what made Wall Street so vulnerable to program-trading 
manipulation in _DoH_ was that the various trading houses used the _same_ mathematical 
models of market behavior to drive the expert system AIs. If the models are the same, 
the implementations are not so critical that they might be the targets of industrial 
espionage . . . unless the adventure is limited to a low-tech world where these 
techniques are _just_ being implemented.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:54:10 -0700
Subject: Re: Ultra-tech battle

Larry Hadley wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Rich Ostorero wrote:
> > Yep...also read Mr. Cunningham's book, too ;)
> 
>   Hell, I've *met* him - but that's another story...

He's now _Representitive_ Randy Cunningham, (R-Calif) now, isn't he? I managed to meet  
Colonel Pappy Boyington (_Baa Baa Black Sheep_) a _long_ time ago, as well as a 
Luftwaffe (WW2) fighter pilot named Eichel. Both are strange tales . . . .

 
>    Most of them, yes. But the F-4D _is_ provided in the game, along with a
> lot of other low-tech designs such as the MiG-17, 19, and 21. Desert
> Falcons has the early sidewinder and sparrow missiles I need. All I need
> is a card for the F-100 and F-105 and I'm set! (Time to check the
> air.power list...)

That's right . . . _Desert Falcons_ was a b*tch to find. From what I 
understand, JD published the Vietnam stuff in another game _The Speed of Heat_. The 
cards in that game look _a Lot_ like AS. I don't know if the Thud is in there; but if it 
is and TSoH is compatible with AS, you may have a campaign!

Now if only I had the music to all those neat songs ("The sexual life of the camel . . . 
")

Cheers,

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com

> 
> -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
>    Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
>    http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html
> 
> "Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask
> `what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:43:17 -0700
Subject: Re: Newbie questions about T4

Matt Lewis wrote:
> 
> Although I have been RPGing for about five years, I am a total Traveller
> newbie, so bear with me. I have a query about the promotion rules in
> character creation in the new version of Traveller, and a couple more
> questions.
> 
> Say a character enlists in the army, as a private (rank E1), and then
> passes his injury roll. Say he fails his commission roll, and
> automatically moves up to E3 in the first term.
> 
> Does the rising ranks described in the 'Enlisted Ranks:' section on p21
> count as promotion for purposes of new skills?

IG says "no."

> 
> Do NCOs get to roll for promotion in addition to this, and do they
> receive extra skills for being promoted?

The roll for promotion is for commissioned officers.

> 
> So in his first term, would this guy get 4 (4 for 4 years), 6 (4 for 4
> years, 2 for 2 auto-promotions) or 7 (4 for 4 years, 2 for 2
> auto-promotions and 1 if he succeeds the promotion roll) skills?

4 for 4 years. Enlisted promotions don't count for skills; only rolled promotions do.

> 
> If the rising in ranks does count for skills, which takes place first
> during the second term, the auto-promotion or the commission check?

If the character is non-commissioned, he gets the auto-promotions "at the start of the 
term" (this is per T4). This is for terms after the first. In subsequent terms, he will 
auto-promote before checking for commissioning. If he is commisssioned, then check for 
_officer_ promotion. 
> 
> A couple more unrelated questions:
> 
> On some of the Advanced Education options, such as College & Merchant
> Academy, the skills available are clusters, shown in bold. My question is
> this: does the player get all skills in that cluster, does he pick one, or
> does he determine one randomly?

I allow characters to pick an appropriate skill.
> 
> The key on page 183 is unclear on how to mark amber and red travel zones on
> to subsector maps. Can anyone enlighten me?

Traditionally, Red zones are completely encircled with a bold line and Amber Zones are 
only partially-circled with a thinner one.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:48:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Good game stores

Hugh Foster wrote:

> 
> I know what you mean. When me'n'my buddy started gaming back in '82, we started
> visiting Games Workshop. Ah. I know what you're thinking. No, then it was a
> _real_ games shop. Tucked away in John Dalton St in Manchester, smallish shop,
> glass cases with leads on show - you sang out the numbers and got 'em in a
> little paper bag like an old-fashioned sweetshop. All sortza different games,
> and run by _gamers_, not sales-suits or wage-slaves. We became regulars, and
> copped for the same sort of freebies as you - I still have my White Dwarf
> somewhere, and the Dwarf with No Name... When the first CT Alien Modules came
> out (GW had moved to the Arndale by then but were still a good store), they
> reserved copies of Zhodani, Droyne and Solomani for us - and hung on til ten
> past five as we tore through the rush hour on our motorbikes to pick 'em up!

Ghods . . . . makes me glad to have Doug and company here. Doug's a businessman _and_ a 
gamer/modeller/anime freak/comics fan/card collector who hires _other_ likeminded folks, 
not game-ignorant weenies. He tosses so many freebies at me it isn't funny (like the 
whole run of Ken Carpenter's _Stroke and Dagger_) and stays open late to accomodate me 
if he has something I'm waiting for.

> 
> I still shake my head with great sadness when I see the modern GW stores,
> exclusively dedicated to ripping kiddies with their mediocre Warhamster stuff,
> and diverting hordes of them away from real roleplaying forever.

I've never been in a GW store, but I can relate to how you feel. GW's arrogance tops 
that of T$R. GW's practice of referring to "The Hobby" as I've known and loved it for 
thirty years as "The Games Workshop Hobby" makes me sick. Not even T$R, at the depths it 
sunk to in the early 80s, ever exhibited this brand of hubris. It's gotten so bad that 
most of my friends here will not play third edition "Whore-whammer." The vacuum 
coefficient of Third ed Whorewhammer is intolerable (it sucks HARD); it's the classic 
Marketing-Department-driven 'game.' GW is to gaming that Domino's is to pizza -- 
corporate crapola. 

> 
> Only one shop - the Model Shop - in the Manchester area that I can think of
> carries any RPG at all, though there's a good 2-H shop out in Merseyside that
> Andy Lily put us onto, and a model shop in Warrington has a few odds and ends
> (they still have 101 vehicles and FSSI!). Even the London Virgin Megastore's
> range has plummetted. I don't know about the States, but over here in Blighty,
> our hobby is _dying_, guys.

 Sounds like GW is _murdering_ it in the UK. Maybe it's time to define "The Hobby" -- 
roleplaying, wargaming and boardgaming -- as specifically excluding GW and all it's 
works. After all, GW's own hype calls it "The Games Workshop Hobby." Use that when you 
talk to the indie shops! There's "The Hobby" -- gaming as you know and love it -- and 
there's "The Games Workshop Hobby," aka The Evil Coroprate Entity aka 
T$R-with-a-Brit-accent. I suport the shops that support The Hobby here in the Armpit of 
California; I'm sure you're doing the same.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 12 Sep 96 16:48:38 EDT
Subject: Re: In Defense of Foss

- --- Mark Cook in part wrote:
>                                           We don't need to drag down the
> people involved just because some of us don't agree with how it fits into
> the Word Of The Year, "CANON".

Of course we don't *need* to.  What's your point? :^)
- --- end of quoted material ---
Wull, gee, Mark: was it fun? 

------------------------------

From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 16:58:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Good games stores

My game store (here in Sherbrooke) called me the other day to tell me
that they found some old MegaTraveller stuff from a liquidation.  I
ordered MTJ#4 and "early adventures" from them.  Now, that sounds
like dedication to customers to me. :)  I don't think the hobby is
dying, at elast in this part of the world, just yet.
 
But we're all wondering what the future of role-playing is!

- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
	Independentist: My Canada excludes the federal bureaucracy :)
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:00:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Grow-your-own d3

On 12 Sep 96 05:26:30 EDT, Hugh Foster wrote:

> 
> >> Or take a Toblerone, mark all three long sides, and pitch it across the table
> underhanded.  It's a little biased, though  :-) <<
> 
> ROFL !!

I can't believe it!  I must of wrote that over a month ago and here it is
again!

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:39:56 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Sold Right Out

Moin Hugh Foster,

> Imperium Games? When's Print Run II? From the sound of things, there's a lot of
> folk still waiting - and most copies have gone to cognescenti, not new blood.
> The game needs new players to survive!

	Perhaps they should make the errats first befor the next print run.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #407
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Traveller-digest         Friday, 13 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 408

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Games @#$% Workshop
         2. T4 vs. CT
         3. MT books anyone?
         4. Re: Newbie questions about T4
         5. Nobles in Year 0.
         6. TML Patrons (was Re: 76 Patrons)
         7. Re: In Defense of Foss
         8. Need EPC...
         9. More T4 newbie questions
        10. Re: RSSC
        11. Re: sustainable technologie
        12. Re: Thoughts on Trade
        13. Re: Thoughts on Trade
        14. [none]
        15. Re: [T96#396] SIDEBAR: Defending Copyright
        16. Re: sustainable technologie

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:00:46 GMT
Subject: Re: Games @#$% Workshop

On 12 Sep 96 05:26:44 EDT, Hugh Foster wrote:

> >> On the other hand, the nature of a GW store that sold ONLY GW products
> wouldn't be all that successful IMHO...  More likely a GW store is only going to
> carry fast movers...  T$R, GW, White Wolf, Star Wars & Star Trek because of the
> license recognition, Magic: The Gathering of <<
> 
> Boing! Wrong! GW shops in Britain (and there are, sadly, lots) carry NOTHING but
> their own crap... I mean, products. Sales technique seems to be to wind very
> young gamers into hype-hysteria and flog them (via Mum, usually) a lot of very
> similar plastic figures and stilted wargame rules. Said kids then probably get
> bored with the samey contrived set-piece battles which are Warhamster and
> frustrated with being unable to paint their figures as well as the ones in the
> window (OK, GW have some _very_ good painters) and drop out of gaming.
> 
> Yup, I'm British, and I _despsise_ what GW has become.

They do produce some pretty nice miniatures, though.  And some good
fiction.  I just don't agree with their outlandish pricing, rules which
appear only as "interpretations" within fictional text in the sidebars of
their rulebooks (ie: no hard, written rules like Avalon Hill), and the fact
that they completely replace their games with new versions that are in no
way compatible with previous releases.  Oh yeah, and the fact that you can
only use their miniatures during their own conventions.  Geez.

How do they survive?  "In your face" marketing aimed at new gamers and
die-hard GW fans (and not those of us who know when to get out of GW's
particular niche of the hobby)-- not to mention an erie cult following.
That's it... GW is a cult!

GW has a head office in Baltimore and many large cities in the US & Canada
have GW stores (that sell *only* GW stuff).  Some game stores are licensed
affiliates of GW, which basically means that they carry a complete line of
GW stuff in addition to their other stocked items.

Grenadier produced a set of table-top rules for their own miniature line a
year or two ago but it kind of got lost under the foot of GW.  They also
produced a Companion shortly afterwards.  Something tells me that you might
get a better game out of Grenadier (who produced miniatures well before the
rules) than GW (which produces games to sell their miniatures).



------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 17:00:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: T4 vs. CT

Hi, 

I bought T4 last week, and have been enthusiastically reading it
since then. I've seen several reviews of the new rules on this
list, but none have been from the point of view of a die-hard CT
hold-out (at least, not that I know of). So I thought I'd add my
own $0.02 worth regarding Traveller's present incarnation.

Let me start off by saying that I love just about everything about
the new rules. I'll talk a little bit about why I like them, and
then I'll give an overview of the differences between T4 and CT.

I love T4 for two reasons. One, the new rules have very much the feel of
CT.  A task system has been introduced which was obviously inspired by
MT's very excellent task system, but has been altered to maintain more
of CT's stronger reliance on attributes. Like MT's task system, T4's
gives the referee a more managible structure to work with (compared to
CT's often ad hoc rulings), while allowing more flexibility than MT had
room for. I think a more opportune balance has been struck here.

Two, the background, while still sparse, has got me excited. From
the early days of the first publication of Supplement 3, "The
Spinward Marches," many people have complained about CT's lack of
opportunity for exploration and about the 3rd Imperium's
omnipresence. MT tried to address this problem by shattering the
Imperium. I think that the present solution --- adventuring "in the
past" --- is a more satisfying one. It allows for exploration and
war in a growing society, rather than a decaying one. All the decay
following the Rebellion was just too depressing for me to want to
adventure there.

Also, I'm happy to see support for the old Spinward Marches milieu
in the adventure "Exit Visa," which was included in the rule book
as an example for newbies (and an exercise in the new task system
for oldbies) and set circa the year 1105. (But it is easily
transportable to any campaign.)

Despite T4's success in maintaining the "feel" of both CT and MT,
when it comes down to gritty details, the new rules can be quite
different from the old. I think that almost all of the changes were
for the better, and reflected the fact that the old rules could be
quite inadequate in some respects (for instance, the discrepancy
between the abilities of characters rolled up using Book 2 compared
to those using the "expanded character generation" rules of books 4
through 7). Still, these changes need to be addressed for those who
desire continuity within an ongoing campaign.

The biggest rules change was the character generation system. All
the old Book 2 careers are in place (with some well thought-out
additions) and they use a smilar concept. (You roll for enlistment,
survival, commission, promotion, re-enlistment, skills, etc.) But
the new attribute-oriented task system requires that skills be at
higher levels in order to make a big difference compared to the
attribute. So characters generated with the T4 system will
seriously out-class any old CT character.

And this problem can't be solved by a referee merely insisting that
the old character generation systems still be used. Old CT
characters will find that they may (depending on their attributes)
have a much harder time performing actions in the new task system
than in the old ad hoc system.

So your old CT characters will need to be beefed up somehow. The
simplest (and crudest) way to do this may be to multiply all skill
levels by 3 for Book2 characters and by 2 for Books4-7 characters.
Or you can allow your characters more rolls on the new skill
tables, and retcon the discrepancies. A good referee with the
desire to change systems should be able to come up with a
conversion that both he and his players like. I think it's well
worth the effort.

The other Big Change was in the starship construction rules.
Traveller up till now has had four not-so-compatable rule systems
for starships: Book2, Book5, MT, and FFS. Now it has five, the QSDS
system in T4. The new system is based (too bad for me) on my least
favorite of the previous four: FFS. But some very well thought out
alterations to it have been made to make the ships designed by it
to be very CTish in nature. The new USP is much better than either
High Guard's (too vague) or MT's (too cluttered).

The ships produced by the system and included in the rulebook are
all oldies-but-goodies. I look forward to seeing a large collection
of pre-designed starships come out soon.

But as far as designing ships myself goes: I think I'll continue to
use High Guard. High Guard is just too simple and elegant a system
for me to abandon --- I can design a ship in my head in five
minutes. QSDS is not too complicated, but It does depend on a lot
of charts, and even with those charts I'd need 15 minutes or so
crank out a quickie.

I say this with some regret, because a lot of imagination and skill
went into writing QSDS and it really shows. But I don't see myself
needing the added level of detail, so I can't see what I'd gain by
abandoning High Guard.

This is my ONLY complaint about the new game.

I'm going to try to come up with a way to convert all my old High
Guard USP's to the new T4 USP, unless, of course, Derek Wildstar
has already given some thought to that. I'd appreciate all the help
I can get.

Cheers,

		-Rob, the "Book 5: High Guard" guy.

------------------------------

From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 09:23:23 +1300
Subject: MT books anyone?

Hi all,

I'm on the hunt for some MT books to bolster my rather small collection of
MT and Traveller books. Does anyone out there have copies of the _Referees
Compainion_ and _Rebellion Sourcebook_(?) that they maybe willing to part
with?  For that matter, any MT books out there for sale?


Thanks in advance,


 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Blair Lynch-Blosse, BSc (MSc student)         lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz
  Earth Sciences Department
  University of Waikato
  Private Bag 3105
  Hamilton                                            175.19'E 37.47'S
  NEW ZEALAND                "Trust No One. Deny Everything" - X-Files
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 18:15:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Newbie questions about T4

Hello Folks,
  After attempting to create ships based upon T4, I was left with some
minor feelings of disquiet.  The statistics for the Patrol Cruiser does
not match was is given for the "standard" ship building rules.  Does
anyone know if this is the result of the Patrol Cruiser being built by the
upcoming starship book rules?  If the ship should have been built using
the standard rules from Traveller 4th Edition, then the hull values
themselves are off in that the Structure value should either be 12 or 16,
not 14.  Also, I noted that there was a faulty hull volume rating for the
Patrol Cruiser in that it was listed as a 200 ton ship, and yet, the
listed volume was for a 400 ton ship.

  On a related topic, how does T4 rate rooms?  I noticed that the ship
description allowed for X crew, and Y passengers.  Does this mean that
there are X+Y staterooms, or that there is .5*X+Y staterooms?

Hal


------------------------------

From: Sanders  <kalyn@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:16:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Nobles in Year 0.

I thought I'd throw out a suggestion. David Drake in his book "Igniting 
the Reaches" deals with the problems of a rising Interstellar Empire. He 
draws heavily upon "Sir" Francis Drake and his exploits and the attitudes 
of the time for inspiratiion. I'd seriously encourage anyone who 
previously replied to this topic to give David's book a look.

Ad astra,
Paul Sanders
kalyn@netcom.com

------------------------------

From: daniel_t@gate.net (Daniel T.)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 18:18:22 -0400
Subject: TML Patrons (was Re: 76 Patrons)

At 9:13 AM 9/10/96, Sam Draper wrote:
>Ensign John and Loren wrote:
>
>76 patrons was invaluable, especially for diversions from larger campaigns.
>Hopefully, IG will include a dozen such encounters in the back of every
>source book and publish a larger collection.
>
>Maybe we could write such a thing here on the TML.

Here's an easy thing for us to do. I'm surprised it hasn't been done
already. (If it has, I would love to have a look at it!)

Write up an idea with the same format as 76 patrons (shown below). Send
your idea to me at "daniel_t@gate.net" with the subject "TML Patron". At
the end of the month, I will publish all the patrons on a web page!

================================================================================
Format for TML Patrons:

Recommended number of players (2-6, 5-12, 9+)

Patron Type     Required Skills:        Required Equipment:

Players Information:
    Include a short history, set-up the situation, mention what the patron
will do for the players and what (s)he expects from them.

Referee's Information:
    Describe at least 3 different modifications to the above situation and
number them.

Concept by: (put your name and e-mail address here!)

Copyright notice: Unless you specify otherwise I will assume the following:
You will allow me to edit it for length and/or format and publish it in a
web page. If IG expresses a wish to publish the material in book form you
will allow that also. Otherwise you retain all rights to the material. (If
you don't like the copyright above then you must include one of your own.
================================================================================



------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:20:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: In Defense of Foss

Jeffery Miller writes:

> --- Mark Cook in part wrote:
> >                                           We don't need to drag down the
> > people involved just because some of us don't agree with how it fits into
> > the Word Of The Year, "CANON".
> 
> Of course we don't *need* to.  What's your point? :^)
> --- end of quoted material ---
> Wull, gee, Mark: was it fun? 

Well... now that you mention it... yeah, it *was* (and still *is*!) :^)

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.  
   When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
                                 - Barry Asmus

------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 19:02:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Need EPC...

Hello Folks,
  I was wondering if anyone might like a go at this concept: Email Player
Character...

  Burke Reisling: up and coming executive in the Sternmetals
Megacorporation.  As a mid-level executive, he feels that his talents are
wasted.  He would like a chance at the big stuff where he could be a VP in
charge of some division located somewhere in the lower extremities of the
Spinward Marches sector.  He believes he has found his ticket, namely: an
unnamed planet in the Trojan Reaches on the other side of the imperium
border.  It was surveyed quickly by a scout team.  They failed to find the
Tantalum deposit situated on the planet's surface.  As fate would have it,
it looks very rich on the surface, but has been determined to be limited
by competent geologists.  Using funds "relocated" by Burke, something to
the turn of roughly 750 Mcr, he is organizing a bogus colonization effort.
The colonizers are from 3 heavily populated worlds, and come under three
major classifications:

1) highly paid technicians - 800 total
2) high-risk criminals who were given the choice emmigrate or incarcerate
3) welfare "scum" who are untrained, and used to welfare programs

Group #2 totals up to 4200 men/women, while group #3 totals 20,000.  The
governments paid a bounty on these undesirables if Burke would transport
them off planet.  Of course, Assurances were required in order to get the
bounty to the effect that the colonization would be properly supported,
and done far away from the homeworlds.  To this end, a large Transport
holding 24,200 low berths were required (or, alternatively, one transport
is required to make a couple of "runs" to get all 25,000 colonists).  On
average, the amount of money being spent on the colonists is equal to
30,000 credits...

  Now for the behind the scenes stuff:  Burke has managed to get his hands
on a stolen Anagathic cargo lot.  Neither he, nor the "pirate" knew that
the batch was an experimental batch with a need for clinical trials until
too late.  It acts like an Anagathic, but after a few months of use, it
begins to act like a poison instead (something about trace impurities
impossible to filter out).  In any event, he has hired some personnel with
the promise of 10 years worth of Anagathics should the "experts" sign on
for a five year stint as colonizer organizers.  Currently hired are two
scouts with 44 years of experience between them, an Ex-Army officer who
joined the Imperial Security organization (sort of an FBI for the
Imperium), and an ex-Marine washed out 2nd LT. (after all, 20 years in the
service, an no promotions worth mentioning).  The scouts are there to
start the colony, and the other two are there to keep the riff-raff in
line.  What Burke doesn't know is that one of the "police" experts is
really a retiring Imperial Security- that is, until now <grin>.

1) Burke's plan is to start the colony outside Imperial Boundries.

2) Burke has a slush fund that should Sternmetal find out about, will wash
him out of the company.

3) Burke wants a higher position in the company, and will do just about
anything to get it short of murder (although he doesn't have a problem
with some other person doing the dirty deed...)

4) Burke has a plan where the PC's will be withdrawing the money for
colony expenses.  He is paying a bank employee to watch the fund and
report the money as it is being withdrawn.  In conjunction with reports
that the PC's are expected to file, he hopes to catch the PC's in an act
of embezzlement - and can hold the threat of legal action over them.

5) The Tantalum deposit on the planet will be Burke's ticket to higher
authority, should the colony succeed.  It is a known fact that the mine
will play out, and that the "boom-town" atmosphere will bust rather
quickly.  At such a time, Burke intends to deliberately make some "errors"
and look like he is in hot water, and then sell the playing out mine to
whomever will buy it - an unrealistic prices <he he he>.

  What are the thoughts of the people of this list, and are there any who
would like to assume the role of Burke?  Assuming that there are at least
two who are going to be interested, could you send an email detailing
Burke a little bit more (ie character stats, skills, and other plans that
you would do were you playing Burke for real).  This way, I can chose the
"real" Burke...

One more Thing:  I am running a GURPS atlantean Campaign every other week,
and a Traveller Campaing opposite the Atlantean Campaign.  This means that
you would be contacted roughly every two weeks.  Of course, Burke could be
involved with other things besides the colony scenario (like piracy and
such - after all, where did he get the stolen Anagathics from? <grin>).

Hal
 


------------------------------

From: "Matt Lewis" <lewis@griffin.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 00:10:07 +0100
Subject: More T4 newbie questions

A few more questions...

When changing careers, can a character apply to one he has already served 
in, and can he apply to one he has been previously turned down from?

When mustering out, do all terms served count, or only those served in the 
current career?

When mustering out benefits include the yacht or lab ship, does the 
character have to pay for them, like the free trader, or does he get it 
free, like the scout?

The last sentence of the Retirement section of the mustering out benefits 
reads:
"Retirement pay is not available to characters who have served in the 
Scout or another service."
What does this mean? By services does it mean military forces (Army, Navy, 
etc.)?

All help appreciated.

- -------------------------------------
Matt Lewis mailto:lewis@griffin.co.uk
http://www.griffin.co.uk/users/lewis/

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:51:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RSSC

On 12 Sep 1996, Hugh Foster wrote:

> As as non-contributor to the RSSC, but one who would really like to see The
> Finished Product (which will probably be ready before my T4 arrives :(), I'd
> really like to see the final, definitive version on a web page somewhere - and
> NOT as a collection of web pages!! I _hate_ that! As if i'm going onto the Web
> mid-game to run my combat! No, a downloadable like QSDS would be dandy. Please?

What you say makes sense.  I plan on getting it pretty-formatted by my 
wife once it is finished.  It would be available in ASCII, WP, and Word 
formats.  Other formats, if necessary, will have to be translated by 
someone else. :)

BTW, RSSC has been renamed to "The Role-Playing Ship Combat System," or RPSC 
System (or just RPSC).  Why, you ask?   :)

Well, Eris and I started out making a truly Rediculously Simple Combat 
System.  Range bands, no hexes.   Limited weapons (lasers, and maybe 
missiles).  Basically, not a lot of complicating options.  Oh, and an 
emphasis on characters as opposed to equipment.

As we got into it though, and slung proposals back and forth, it started 
to become more complex.  

Then several folks joined in (including Derek Wildstar, Merrick 
Burkhardt, and James Garriss) and it started becoming even more 
complex..  We added hex-based movement and lots of complicated options.  

More recently, Allen Shock, Bruce Allen Macintosh, Larry Hadley, and 
several others have joined in, contributing comments, questons, and 
criticism.  Allen contributed some rules proposals as well.  It became 
even more complex.

By that time, we had a really good wargame.  Which is fine, but it isn't 
what we set out to do!

Finally we all realized we had totally abandoned the original purpose.  
We'd created The Complex Space Combat System without even trying, in a 
sense. :)  

So, it was back to the drawing board.  I re-wrote the entire thing in two 
evenings (Tuesday and Wednesday of this week), taking the core ideas as 
contributed by all of us over the weeks, but softening the edges.  Late 
last night/early this morning, the folks involved with the project 
responded to my changes with further changes, helping to pull it further 
away from the wargame archetype.

So, at this point we have a system that is rapidly becoming a 
role-playing method of playing out space combat.  Thus, the name change.  

I had planned to post a beta-test version of it to TML after this weekend, 
but we'll see how it goes.

Stay tuned. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 18:56:04 PST
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie

In mail you write:

>         We currently have a population code of 9 and a modifier of 5.3
>         (1990) up to 6.1 (2000) with a techlevel of 7-8 we can sustain.
>         In my theory a higher techlevel needs a larger diversification

Now consider that you can kill *everyone* in China, the CIS, India, and
large portions of Africa, Latin America, and it would have *no* effect
on our tech level, because none of those places contributes anything
*necessary* for maintaining our tech level.

And don't forget that we are doing this with *no* trade. If you want to
claim that we have trade, then you'd better start looking at the
population of industrial *regions*, not the world population.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 18:32:44 PST
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Trade

In mail you write:

> I hate to mention the triangle trade was TOBACCO to Rum To Slaves.  And
> Triangle trade only works when there is a freely convertable monetary source
> on one of the points.

Huh? You need that to take *cash* profits. But you can keep playing the
trade without it. And as long as one corner is at "your" tech level,
and willing to "trade" for repairs/upgrades on your ship, you're fine.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 18:35:27 PST
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Trade

In mail you write:

> The most notorious triangle was sugar from the West Indies to New England
> where it was purchased for the manufacture of rum.

Better check your facts. Rum is made from *molasses*, which is a
*byproduct* of sugar production. That's why the rum was generally
produced *in* the West Indies!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:03:19 -0700
Subject: [none]

On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Mark Cook <markc@peak.org> said:
 
>A properly configured Expert System can incorporate raw data from all the
>sources you've named and advise the combatants of 90% probabilities.
>Sure, there'll be ways to defeat them (holographic masking, thermal
>masking, et.al.), but that's war.

Ever hear of the SGT York Divisional Anti-Aircraft weapon?  Had the best
weapon control software in the world, designed to lock onto the whirling
blades of Soviet helicopters.

First time they rolled it out for the brass, the damn machine ignored the
two drone helicopters hovering right in front of it, and instead engaged the
exhaust fan of a near-by latriene!

The moral of the story.  Never trust a computer to do a soldier's work.  A
M1-A2 may have computers tracking everything but how many dirty letters the
driver has got from his girlfriend, but it is still the crew that picks the
targets and engages them.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 19:16:10 PST
Subject: Re: [T96#396] SIDEBAR: Defending Copyright

In mail you write:

>  For what it's worth, the Tolkien estate engaged in a vigorous
>  defense of copyright against T$R not long after T$R did the
>  same against someone else.  The result was (among other things)
>  that there are no more "Ents" in T$R products.  There will also
>  _never_ be an authorized Middle Earth product from T$R.

Actually, TSR got jumped on *several* times and it was *quite* early on.

First case I know of was their Pre-D&D product (which is referred to
several times in D&D) "Warriors of Mars". The Burroughs estate was
*not* happy. (I'd love to have even a Xerox of the book though)

Then came the Tolkien estate noticing "Ents", "Hobbits" and one other
thing I can't recall. But that was *long* before TSR started going
after other people. The printing of the original books had the changes
by the mid 70s. 

Next was the Gods, Demigods and Heroes booklet referring to fictional
dieties without permission. And they did it again with the first
edition of Dieties and Demigods (Elric, Cthulhu Mythos, etc).

I think that was the *last* time they were stupid enough to not check
the copyright status of things. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 19:01:17 PST
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie

In mail you write:

>> We are currently what? TL-8? on Earth. This could be sustained with
>> fewwer than 100 million people. In fact, when you stop and think about
>> the number of people who contribute *nothing* to maintaining our
>> current tech level, we pretty much *do* support TL8 with a (relevant)
>> population of less than 8.
>
>         What do you call "relevant" population ?

Those involved in producing the goods, or in supporting those who
produce them. So miners and farmers count, but only the ones needed for
the industrial areas. Plus the "semi-closed" areas like China don't
count. 

>         Even if you think that we dont need the people in africa
>         (hey we are ritch because they are hungry ;-) the pop in the
>         industrial country sums up to a pop code of 8-9.

Now subtract the "permanently unemployed" from that.

>         E.g. the US has a population code of 8 and modifier of 2.4.

Remove the "street people" and the the folks who've given up looking
for work, and you'll get a rather smaller number.

>         And any population will have people who contribute nothing,
>         this formular is not intedent as for robots, but for planets
>         who suffer in the long nigth or in the 1116-1130 war.

Sure, there are always children, retired, students, etc. But a society
that *needs* everyone just to keep things running (which *is* the
limiting situation you are talking about!) will get by with a lot fewer
people than we do.

>> Consider some of the lower tech levels and this becomes a lot more
>> obvious. 10,000 people can do a tech level all the way up to pre-civil
>> war if they have the right resources on hand. But by your rules, TL4 is
>> the limit...
>
>         Hm civil war was 1700  (if you refer to US history)
>         and TL4 is 1900, they would have production of combustion
>         machines but no mass production. but its even more likely
>         that they'll stay at TL3 (they have science but no industry).

Civil War was 1861! Revolutionary war was 1776. 

>> For that matter, just consider tohe tech level changes this century.
>> Wre've gone thru several *without* a 100-fold uncrease in population.
>
>         But the scale of economy incresed in the last hundred years.
>         While in 1800 the scale of economy was a big city (population
>         5-6) it become nation width in WWI & WWII and continent width
>         now. Imho SU economy is broken because they could'nt sustain
>         TL8 without trade they had to step back to TL7 because of
>         embargo politics.

Comparing economies that "grew" from scratch with ones that were set up
at a higher tech level doesn't work very well. We've got lots of areas
that have *never* been at anything much above medieval level, if that
high. 

A colony will start out at a given tech level, and only drop to very
low tech levels when they get *forced* to. And if it's a true *colony*
as opposed to some sort of outpost, at least the basics for becoming
self-sufficient are going to be a priority.

Consider Australia. What's the population? And how much stuff do they
produce *locally*? Heck, what tech level does South Africa maintain (a
good examnple since they *export* raw material, that much of the rest
of the world has to import). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #408
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Traveller-digest        Saturday, 14 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 410

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Expert systems
         2. Bring Back Blair!
         3. Re: Bring Back Blair!
         4. Reality bites Fiction again!
         5. Re: MT books anyone?
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #409
         7. T4 Ship Design Answers
         8. My Web Site Has Moved
         9. T4 Artwork (was Bring Back Blair!)
        10. Do you know...
        11. [none]
        12. Re: MT books anyone?
        13. Foss Art
        14. Re: Print Runs
        15. Idea & T4
        16. re:dudley do-right
        17. TL maintanence
        18. Re: T4 availability
        19. Re: sustainable technologie

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 14:09:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Expert systems

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:03:19 -0700
>
> On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Mark Cook <markc@peak.org> said:
>  
> >A properly configured Expert System can incorporate raw data from all the
> >sources you've named and advise the combatants of 90% probabilities.
> >Sure, there'll be ways to defeat them (holographic masking, thermal
> >masking, et.al.), but that's war.
> 
> Ever hear of the SGT York Divisional Anti-Aircraft weapon?  Had the best
> weapon control software in the world, designed to lock onto the whirling
> blades of Soviet helicopters.

The technical term used was "Divisional Air Defense," or "DIVAD."  And it 
had the *most complicated* FC software in the world -- big difference 
from "best." :)

> First time they rolled it out for the brass, the damn machine ignored the
> two drone helicopters hovering right in front of it, and instead engaged the
> exhaust fan of a near-by latrine!

What, and destroying the Warsaw Pact's portapotties wouldn't blunt their 
offensive through the Fulda Gap?

> The moral of the story.  Never trust a computer to do a soldier's work.  A
> M1-A2 may have computers tracking everything but how many dirty letters the
> driver has got from his girlfriend, but it is still the crew that picks the
> targets and engages them.

Ah, now *this* gets into a fascinating area.  The concept Doug's getting 
at here is "Human in the loop," or HITL in acronymese.  The US armed 
forces are much, *much* happier when any given weapon system has a human 
in the primary decision-making role when it comes to firing the weapon -- 
which only makes sense.  Alas, on the modern battlefield, the time and 
sensory constraints are becoming tight enough that it's sometimes 
impractical to put a human in the loop.

An excellent example is the Phalanx point-defense system, which is
intended as a last-ditch counter to cruise missile attacks against naval
vessels.  If I'm scribbling on this envelope correctly, the interval
between when a wave-skimming cruise missile comes over the horizon (as
seen from 40 feet above the waterline) to impact is less than 4 seconds. 
Given the details of how a Phalanx operates, it better start firing within
a second after detection to have a good chance of hitting the missile. 
There's no way a human can have a say in that kind of decision. 

Even when a human is in the loop, the trend in modern weaponry is clearly
toward machines identifying, sorting, and prioritizing targets, a human
picking one from the list, and then the machines engaging the chosen
target.  This is happening most slowly in ground combat, which is the most
cluttered, confusing, hard-to-analyze kind.  It's progressing much more
rapidly in naval and air warfare.  Incidents like the Stark (Phalanx
turned off, ship trashed by Exocet) and the Vincennes (Aegis fire-control
system on, designates Iranian airbus as hostile, humans rubber-stamp this
decision, hundred of civilians die) are cautionary markers on a trail 
which we're nonetheless following.  And as technology improves, ground 
combat *will* follow suit, though probably always lagging sea, air, and 
space combat.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Author of Orb: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/orbinfo.html
   |    Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 21:18:20 GMT
Subject: Bring Back Blair!

 
>>> The two artists I'd LOVE to see back in the fold are Blair Reynolds
(what 
>great work he did with DGP!) << 
 
>Amen to that! A great artist. Does anyone know what he's doing these days?
Is 
>he available for IG to get, or has Rodge's DGP got him instead? Don't
care, any 
>game system with his illos I'd buy! 
 
Wait a minute! Is this the same Blair Reynolds that did those 
really gruesome pictures for Pagan Publishing's "The Unspeakable 
Oath"? [1]  I recently saw a note that he was back with them 
again... 
 
                      --Cynthia 
 
- -- 
[1] Extremely good Call Of Cthulhu rpg magazine. 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---NRA---- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:40:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Bring Back Blair!

Dragoness Eclectic said:
> >Amen to that! A great artist. Does anyone know what he's doing these days?
> Is 
> >he available for IG to get, or has Rodge's DGP got him instead? Don't
> care, any 
> >game system with his illos I'd buy! 
>  
> Wait a minute! Is this the same Blair Reynolds that did those 
> really gruesome pictures for Pagan Publishing's "The Unspeakable 
> Oath"? [1]  I recently saw a note that he was back with them 
> again... 

Same Blair.

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:58:34 MST7
Subject: Reality bites Fiction again!

Got my October issue of Scientific American yesterday.  Browsing 
through it I came across a short article that really astonished me:
"
		 PROGRAMMING WITH 
                   PRIMORDIAL OOZE

                               Useful software begins 
                           to crawl out of digital gene pools

                   Computer programmers ascended the economic
                   food chain by inventing clever algorithms to make
                   manufacturing and service laborers redundant. But
                   some programmers may one day find themselves
                   automated out of a job. In university labs, scientists
                   are teaching computers how to write their own
                   programs. Borrowing from the principles of natural
                   selection, the researchers have built artificial
                   ecosystems that, for a few problems at least, can
                   evolve solutions better than any yet devised by
                   humans..."

	The article goes on to explain, in simple terms, what is going on in 
these systems.  But it was the end of the article that sent chills up 
my spine:

"                  Ultimately, evolved software may lead to evolved
                   hardware, thanks to the recent invention of circuit
                   boards that can reconstruct their circuit designs
                   under software control. Adrian Thompson of the
                   University of Sussex turned a genetic programming
                   system loose on one such board to see whether it
                   could produce a circuit to decode a binary signal sent
                   over an analog telephone line. Using just 100
                   switches on the board, the system came up with a
                   near-perfect solution after 3,500 generations.
                   Although the task is simple, "it would be difficult for a
                   designer to solve this problem in such a small area
                   and with no external components," Thompson says. 

                   "Hardware evolution demands a radical rethink of
                   what electronic circuits can be," he argues, because
                   evolution exploits the idiosyncratic behavior that
                   electrical engineers try to avoid. Although genetic
                   programs are largely still fermenting in their
                   primordial ooze, it seems just a matter of time until
                   they crawl out to find their niche. "

Virus Lives, folks.  It may be small and dumb now, but give it 3000 
years...;-)


Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 19:11:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: MT books anyone?

On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, B Lynch-Blosse wrote:
> 
> I'm on the hunt for some MT books to bolster my rather small collection of
> MT and Traveller books. Does anyone out there have copies of the _Referees
> Compainion_ and _Rebellion Sourcebook_(?) that they maybe willing to part
> with?  For that matter, any MT books out there for sale?

I know of where I can get both of these for you. (Second Hand book store).
If noone else has a deal for you, send me email and I'll see what the
prices are for you.

Will Hostman might be able to help you. He has some dupes, I think.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)




------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@novalis.ca>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 20:28:08 -0300
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #409

At 04:44 PM 9/13/96 -0400, Sam Draper wrote:

>There has been some discussion about historical aristoracies.  Someone read
>a book about the French aristocracy and found St. Louis to be the only
>decent French king.  In actuality, St. Louis was one of France's weakest
>kings.  It is easy to point out hundreds of incredibly, even terribly,
>effective kings and nobles, many of whom had loads of integrity to boot.
>Relatively, they make our modern political leaders look like self-serving
>imbeciles.

I recall (or think I do -- WISH I could remember the source) a contemporary
comment about King Stephen of England: "He was a kind man and did little
justice".

As for our modern political leaders, remember that, for any political
figure, the first step in being accurately assessed by history is to die.
Lots of now-esteemed public figures were thoughly despised in their lifetimes.
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca


------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 13 Sep 96 16:19:46 MS
Subject: T4 Ship Design Answers

Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net> asks:
>  After attempting to create ships based upon T4, I was left with some
>minor feelings of disquiet.  The statistics for the Patrol Cruiser does
>not match was is given for the "standard" ship building rules.  Does
>anyone know if this is the result of the Patrol Cruiser being built by the
>upcoming starship book rules?  

Nope - the Patrol Cruiser (and the other ships) were designed using the QSDS.  
However, the ships were designed at a time when the rules were still be 
written/revised.  Also, I admit there was a small cheat; Wildstar and Co 
cranked out a nifty "megalist" of all possible hull configurations for all 
sizes between 100 and 5000 tons.  The hulls in the designs came from that list, 
and in many cases there is not a 1:1 match with the much smaller hull list in 
QSDS.  The 200 vs 400 thing is just a mistake; it was definitely 400 tons.

>  On a related topic, how does T4 rate rooms?  I noticed that the ship
>description allowed for X crew, and Y passengers.  Does this mean that
>there are X+Y staterooms, or that there is .5*X+Y staterooms?

Basically, it is left up to the designer.  Most of the "military" ships I 
designed used Largerstaterooms for passengers and officers, and Small 
staterooms for enlisted crew.  If you are really cramped for space, go ahead 
and bunk 2 per room (but expect a grumpy crew).

Steve Charlton
He Cheats Them Here
He Cheats Them There
He Cheats The Hull Sizes Everywhere

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 14 Sep 1996 01:03:58 GMT
Subject: My Web Site Has Moved

With the start of a new school year, and a large computer club, I have
reorganized my school's web site.  Basically, all I did is to put everything
into directories, so the traveller site is now:

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/traveller.html

I left a pointer from the old address, but this will be faster.


I've also corrected a few typoes in the existing material, but haven't had a
chance to fix the software page yet.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 14 Sep 1996 01:31:47 GMT
Subject: T4 Artwork (was Bring Back Blair!)

>I've *never* really cared for Chris Foss's style 
[snip]
>In my dream version of Traveller, we'd have all the artists that DGP used
>for their Alien Modules (_Cogs_n_Dogs_ and _Cats_n_Rats_)

Ahem!

My T4 arrived this week (thanks Kevin) and my biggest complaint is the colour
ships.  I hated the style on the covers of SF books, and I still don't like
it.  I don't mind new ship designs, but I'd like ones that seem to obey the
same laws of physics as the CT/MT/TNE ships.

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 96 14:32:58 UT
Subject: Do you know...

Does anybody know how much an empty (no cargo) tractor-trailor rig (16 or 18 
wheeler) weighs?

						---Boyd

					

------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 00:36:00 GMT 
Subject: [none]

Chuck Maddox
> I heard that Gary Gygax's Dangerous Journeys, published by GDW, was
> in some legal difficulty from T$R at one point.

That's putting it rather mildly. TSR alleged that it was a copyright
violation and derivative of D&D and AD&D.

> Something about Gygax doing some of the work while still at T$R (what
> I heard, may not be actual)...

This never turned up in _any_ of the documents that were produced
during the lawsuit...and I read every blasted one.

> It seems that it was discountinued rather abruptly

TSR settled out of court. They paid GDW for the printed inventory, and
Gary and others for the trademarks and copyrights. They got several
truckloads of product, and their check cashed very nicely.

Loren Wiseman


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 20:41:27 -0600
Subject: Re: MT books anyone?

At 09:23 am 9/13/96 +1300, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I'm on the hunt for some MT books to bolster my rather small collection of
>MT and Traveller books. Does anyone out there have copies of the _Referees
>Compainion_ and _Rebellion Sourcebook_(?) that they maybe willing to part
>with?  For that matter, any MT books out there for sale?

        You're in big luck! I was wandering through a new game store (well,
old but new to me) a few weeks ago, saw an MT book and grabbed it up! Then I
got home and realized I already had it. So it's available.

        Also got a near-mint boxed set of black books (including Book4!),
which ain't available.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 21:54:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Foss Art

I can't say I liked the black & whites, but Foss' starships have inspired
me for years. Some of them are absurd, but I like to overall effect he
captures and some of them really fit with my own internal visions. I'm
thinking back to previous, non-traveller works, but they remain in my
mind when I same his new stuff.

I would love to see Blair's work back in the genre again  - I remember
seeing Rob Caswell's work show up in Star Wars books recently. Anyway, 
I've heard Blair's work will be all over "Blue Planet" - a game being 
created by a company called Biohazard Games here in Columbia, MO. 

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 22:21:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Print Runs

On Sat, 14 Sep 1996 gdw.support@genie.com wrote:

> TSR settled out of court. They paid GDW for the printed inventory, and
> Gary and others for the trademarks and copyrights. They got several
> truckloads of product, and their check cashed very nicely.

Loren,

_Truckloads_ of product?  Yow!

This brings up a question I've wondered ever since I discovered how 
difficult some CT items were to find, and how easy it was to find other 
things:  What was the typical _first_ print run of a new product?  That 
is, not something like Alien Module #3, where you had a good idea of how 
many would sell.  Something like Twilight:2000, Dangerous Journeys, 
Traveller: 2300, or other new, untried products.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "James M. Kelleher" <kelleher@holonet.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 96 21:13:27 PDT
Subject: Idea & T4

Hello,

I'm unlurking after a long time TRYING to keep up and failing...

I don't know if I've posted this before so...

I got an idea from some of the comments that have been going around and
would like to share them... Jim don't think that I'll use these
neccessarily... :-) ( I KNOW you're reading this )...

Immortals:

Well yes we have been here for Milinnia...

We have been living amonst you, keeping a "Masquerade".

Have your players accidently find out one immortal's True status...
What will he/she do?
Kinda depends on what kind of project he/she has going, and how
convenient it is for him/her to "die" and go underground again.
He/She could just try to discredit them or Kill them, remember such
a being would be able to weild Tremendious power, both political and
physical.
Hummm this could make a campaign in its own right, but I see it as more
a side treck and problems to dodge, you might not let them realize why
they keep having problems, They are close to the "secret" and are being
warned off, but knowing players they would just go deeper into the
puzzle... ;-)

This could keep them happy for years... <eg>...

No Jim I Am NOT thinking of using this in our game! ( I wouldn't do
that... Would I?
Heh heh <eg>
Then again you might have already crossed paths with such and never
known it...
Who knows... I don't... Yet.

Just an Idea, Ya know it's hard to pass ideas on when one of your
players/Dm's also reads the list... :-)


I've gotten T4!!! went to Gamescape, San Francisco. got the last one they had
at the time, ( I hope that they got more ).
I must say that I am impressed with the quality of the book, I have found a 
few typo's, most, I am sure have been mentined, but Jim hadn't noticed one 
Take a look at the Patrol Cruiser, if you realize that it is a 400 ton design,
things start to make sense, however the structure type is also incorrect as a
type 14 is a Sphere U 800 tons...

I was trying to design a ship... and was trying to work around the missing chart
Oh well, I guess I'll just have to get a web connection now... ;-)

All in all this is a much better than I expected, especially given the time
to sale of the finished product!
This is to say YEAH, I am right pleased, and I can only say keep up the good work
guys!
A very good and slick effort indeed!
 
I have just created a couple of charcters, I notice that everything is laid
out so it is easy to find. I do have a couple of further comments tho...

I noticed in the text under Mustering out Benifits, it says that there are 
only two types of ship aviable for mustering out - the Scout and the free trader
then in the chart for Noble is the Yacht, and under Scholer is the venreable
Lab ship...
I know that these inconsistancies will creep in and since my group is happy in the 
the Domain, in 1124? Yeah I think that is it - Jim?
We will probably keep these optins.
Here is another, under Psionics there is no Special...
But I can see reasons for its being left out, as a special should be so rare
that the GM should have control over it, and the charcter might not even know 
that he/she has it...
Oh HAPPY game hooks!

I do not wish to seem to be bashing what I feel is the best Trav. thing to come
allong in a very long time I am giving some fo the inconsistancies that have 
caught my eye so that they can be straightned out or expanded upon in the 
future that looks bright for this Traveller.

Thanks all!


See you
JIm


- -- 
Remember: no matter where you go...
There you are...
B. Banzi

James M. Kelleher
kelleher@holonet.net


------------------------------

From: Chad Cicconi <racerx@nauticom.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 00:52:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: re:dudley do-right

Boyd asked about straight-laced, above board characters.  Well, that is more
difficult than it sounds.  I have been playing CT off and on for about eight
years, and have been playing a scout captain named Alexander Hood.  Despite
his best efforts and desires to remain above board and straight laced, his
colleagues in the PC group nearly always outvoted him and hatched some
hairbrained, illegal, violent, dangerous scheme.  I fail to see how any
single PC could remain entirely straight laced and above board unless the
entire PC group was of the same mindset.  Rob Flammang (our gm, also known
as the "high-guard" guy) can attest to the truth of my opinion (I hope).

                                Chad "isn't that illegal" Cicconi
                                
aka Captain Alexander Hood.  Chairman, Founder and C.E.O. :Society for the
Preservation of the Focaline tree rat.


------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 00:28:54 -0500
Subject: TL maintanence

One thing to consider is that if there is no incentive to increase TL,
chances are that it will decline.  Above a certain level (TL 3 or 4?), I
doubt status quo would be the case.  

It may sound cynical, but I suspect one significant justification for a
dependance of TL on pop is the fact that a lot of tech advancement is
the result of competition between political entities, particularly
military competition.

Another thought: a 'doomsday' attitude could result in a loss of hope
and drive necessary to maintain TL.  Alternatively, the masses could go
into tech decline while some tech knowledge is maintained, possibly
without comprehension, by some special group similar to the middle ages
monestaries.

Just random thoughts :-)


	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 13:49:45 +1300
Subject: Re: T4 availability

> 
> So T4 is very nearly sold out? Good news for IG and well done. But, just for the
> record, has _anyone_ in Britain seen the damn thing yet? I know I haven't. Andy
> Lily? Any reported sightings?
> 
> Imperium Games? When's Print Run II? From the sound of things, there's a lot of
> folk still waiting - and most copies have gone to cognescenti, not new blood.
> The game needs new players to survive!
> 
> HWF
> 
> ------------------------------

I am puzzled also. Surely when one says copies of T4 are almost sold one 
means the limited edition hardbound copies. Imperium Games would not be 
doing good business if they have almost depleted a first run at this 
stage, when neither (apparently) the UK nor Australasia have even seen 
the product. 

What is the true story?


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 21:10:06 PST
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie

In mail you write:

> On 13 Sep 96 at 12:49, Earl Wajenberg spewed:
>
>> I think this was "death by thought-experiment" -- just "subtracting"
>> the people from consideration would be all that was required.
>
> Reality is usually a lot messier than theories...
>
> And I suspect that the loss of raw materials from the 3rd world would 
> probably affect the US Economy (and therefore technology), more than 
> we'd like to think...

But consider that the people producing those raw materials, and the
people supporting them, are a rather small fraction of the poipulation
of those countries.

If aliens were to abduct all the people in the third world, we'd have
production restored rather quickly (and likely with *fewer* people).
All it'd take would be enough people to run the equipment, and provide
support services for them. And I daresay that the equipment would
*quickly* get upgraded to reduce the number of people needed.

That's what it's going to be like on a typical colony world. They'll
have folks mining the minerals, and R&R facilities (aka "mining town")
nearby. They'll be linked to the rest of the planet by some sort of
transport net, be it sub-orbital shuttles, or seagoing ships.

Most of the people will be in the agricultural and industrial areas.
And the population required for a given tech level will be a lot lower
than you seem to think.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #410
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Traveller-digest        Saturday, 14 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 411

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Bring Back Michael Vilardi
         2. Re: Aslan stuff
         3. Re: Reality bites Fiction again!
         4. Deck Plans
         5. Re: T4 availability
         6. Re: sustainable technologie
         7. Re: Aslan stuff
         8. Thoughts on Traveller Feudalism
         9. Traveller Software (hopefully) Available
        10. Browser Survey:  Thanks for the responses!
        11. Re: 76 Patrons
        12. Re: Expert Systems
        13. Re: Long night, big empire
        14. Re: AD&D CORE RULES CD-ROM
        15. Re: Traveller Software (hopefully) Available
        16. RE: Imperial Government
        17. RE: Deck Plans
        18. RE: dudley do-right

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Macek <macek@erols.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 08:32:20 -0700
Subject: Bring Back Michael Vilardi

Well, while were on the subject of artists, and Aslan, there's none better than 
Michael Vilardi.  If you've never seen his work in DGP's Solomoni & Aslan you're 
really missing some top notch stuff.

Esign John

- -- 
"Ensign" John Brent Macek, Coast Survey Nautical Cartographer 
"For Strephon's Breast He aim'd his Dart, and watch'd him as he came;
He cry'd and shot him thro' the Heart, Thy Blood shall quench my Flame."
Lines from an old Terran song, circa -2800 Imperial

------------------------------

From: Mark Nordstrand <markn69@mail.idt.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 09:36:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Aslan stuff

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 
> In a previous message, Stewart L. Dollar said:
> 
> >>>Dewclaw is a claw that grows in the middle of the Aslan "hand",
> literally where the palm is on a human.  Like Terran cats, the Aslan
> <snip>
> usual brawling skill.  Control of the dewclaw retraction is
> SEMI-voluntary.  Usually, the Aslan control when it reveals or hides
> in the palm.  Sometimes, during times of great personal stress, they
> lose the ability, and it reveals itself automatically.<<<
> 
> Thanks, Stu; but does this interfere with their use of other
> weapons/devices/equipment (ie. during times of stress?).

Actually, my interpretation can be found by looking at a cat (or dog).
The dewclaw would be roughly below the wrist ('geneered out of vargr btw).
Aslan do _also_ have a apposable thumbs, leaving three fingers.  Hence the
reference to them as "toons."

MAN

------------------------------

From: Mark Nordstrand <markn69@mail.idt.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 10:08:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Reality bites Fiction again!

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> a long quoted article about programming 'going away'

I remember vividly in the late '80's that all programming would be 
replaced by 4gl's by the middle of the next decade, and being told
the same thing in an interview.  A similiar article appeard in 
Newsweek, only about Smalltalk (the author should've been shot for
some of the allegations made, but that's another issue).

Well, funny thing is, it _is_ the middle of the next decade, and while
_I_ am not doing mostly assembler any more, I'm not working with anything
resembling a 4gl.  In fact I know of a few 4gl 'shops' trying to retool 
away from them (and not Smalltalk :)

Anyway, I do agree that we're moving away from traditional programming 
methodologies (OOP being a real example), but don't forget that _someone_ 
has to program this special environment which does the programming (nice
viscious circle, huh?) for new hardware.  I don't doubt something like 
this can happen, but it's probably a _long_ way off (maybe the 57th 
century).

MAN

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 14 Sep 1996 15:55:13 GMT
Subject: Deck Plans

I've managed to get some of my Space: 1889 deckplans on the web.  You can find
them at:

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Space1889/space1889.html

While most of them aren't much use for Traveller (you could use the armed
canal boat and the German legation compound on a low-tech world) they should
give you an idea of how my Traveller deckplans will eventually look.  (Ie. in
colour, for use with 25mm figures, and with small crosses marking the centre
of a square rather than having the squares ruled on the deckplan.)

I've been thinking about how to accomodate the combat system (based on 1.5m
squares) with my existing 25mm designs.  The most obvious solution seems to
be to use a 3/4" grid instead of a 1" grid, while keeping the ship/building
scale the same.  Because these grids are on a separate layer in my original
drawings, I can easily enough produce TNE (2m squares) and T4 (1.5m squares)
versions of the same deckplan.  I could also produce a version without grid
markings.

Any suggestions/comments/advice?

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 09:01:17 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 availability

On 13 Sep 96 at 13:49, Simon John Harding spewed:

> I am puzzled also. Surely when one says copies of T4 are almost sold
> one means the limited edition hardbound copies. Imperium Games would
> not be doing good business if they have almost depleted a first run
> at this stage, when neither (apparently) the UK nor Australasia have
> even seen the product. 
> 
> What is the true story?

I suppose you'd need to talk to them, but here's my take on it.

2 weeks ago, Matt Machtan sent a note to the list saying that they 
anticipated having sold out the 1st printing by the end of the month 
(meaning September).  He said that they expected the 1st run to last 
until the end of the year.  At the time, they hadn't even received 
the hardbounds, so I'm pretty certain he was talking paperbacks...  

Hope this helps...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 09:01:17 -0800
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie

On 13 Sep 96 at 21:10, Leonard Erickson spewed:
> > And I suspect that the loss of raw materials from the 3rd world
> > would probably affect the US Economy (and therefore technology),
> > more than we'd like to think...
> 
> But consider that the people producing those raw materials, and the
> people supporting them, are a rather small fraction of the
> poipulation of those countries.

Granted, but realize that there is a lot BIGGER population for that 
small fraction to be drawn from...

> If aliens were to abduct all the people in the third world, we'd
> have production restored rather quickly (and likely with *fewer*

Not quickly, slowly.  First you'd have a lot of people in this 
country who wound up being economically dislocated (Newspeak for 
unemployed) because Acme Co. was no longer getting its regular 
shipments of Part X, whose main component was hypothetesium, which is 
mined mainly in Lower Slobovia...causing the ENTIRE assembly line to 
shut down.

Then you've got to teach these laid off auto workers, defense 
workers, etc to become hypothetesium miners (this is not going to 
happen overnight).  Of course this is simplifying things.  First of 
all, you've got to convince them that becoming a hypothetesium miner 
is even necessary, then you've got to convince them to move to 
Slobovia, which incidentally, now has no government services, no 
working infrastructure, and no support services.  

Incidentally, there would be ripple effects from the loss of all these precious 
minerals (including the most precious  of all, OIL, I might add) which would 
cause just about anybody with a manufacturing job, or anybody whose business 
serves companies who manufacture, to have to make wholesale layoffs (read that, 
just about everybody).  

And if you think the pizza guy from down the street is going to make 
an adequate miner without training you're joking...chances are you're 
going to have to do a tough sell just to convince him even to do it.  

Think about the previous examples that happened, the Arab oil 
embargoes.  In 1973, the Arabs stopped oil exports for 3 or 4 months, 
and it creates instant chaos.  Long lines and rationing at the gas 
pumps, wholesale layoffs.  The US was in a recession for 2 years as a 
result of that 3 month problem...they even invented a new term for 
it, stagflation... 

Now think about what happens if all of a sudden ARAMCO walked off the 
job, FOREVER...

> people). All it'd take would be enough people to run the equipment,
> and provide support services for them. And I daresay that the
> equipment would *quickly* get upgraded to reduce the number of
> people needed.

Not quickly at all.  All of a sudden tool manufacturing firms are 
going to be asked to produce several times as much of Product Y than 
they're used to producing:  Result: Inflation and backlogged 
orders... So they hire more workers and are now competing for what 
would now be an extremely scarce labor supply.  More inflation.  Yes, 
this problem would be corrected in the log run.  But for the short term, 
again, economic dislocation.

> That's what it's going to be like on a typical colony world. They'll
> have folks mining the minerals, and R&R facilities (aka "mining
> town") nearby. They'll be linked to the rest of the planet by some
> sort of transport net, be it sub-orbital shuttles, or seagoing
> ships.

Doubtful.  This is an oversimplification.  First of all, consider the type 
of people who are going to colonize a typical world:  Ambitious, greedy nobles 
who see an opportunity to squeeze miners into a little kish, and impressed 
labor, because the average factory worker, or teacher, or grav cargo carrier 
from 2 parsecs over isn't going to give up his comfortable, safe job for a 
nasty, brutish short life in a mine on the latest frontier world...

Things are going to be as low tech as possible for a while, possibly 
decades or centuries, simply because support services are going to be 
mainly focused on providing the basics for the mines and the miners.  
Orbital cities, shuttles, etc, aren't going to happen until the 
colony is much more mature than it would be at the beginning.

> Most of the people will be in the agricultural and industrial areas.
> And the population required for a given tech level will be a lot
> lower than you seem to think.

Quite the opposite.  Most of them are going to be in support 
services.  That means running the company store, manning the starport 
facilities, running the bars, restaurants, brothels, etc. that would 
undoubtedly appear in mining towns.  Most vital materials to the 
colony are initially going to be imported, not manufactured locally.  
This would come later.  Since the actual tech level to which such a 
new colony could manufacture would be a lot lower than its needs, 
you're going to see a lot of importing...

In short, your model ignores economics, a foundation of the Traveller 
universe...

However, your model would probably be workable for an established 
mining colony, it just isn't going to start out that way...

"In the long run, we're all dead." -John Maynard Keynes

Stu

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 09:02:56 -0800
Subject: Re: Aslan stuff

On 14 Sep 96 at 9:36, Mark Nordstrand spewed:

> Actually, my interpretation can be found by looking at a cat (or
> dog). The dewclaw would be roughly below the wrist ('geneered out of
> vargr btw). Aslan do _also_ have a apposable thumbs, leaving three
> fingers.  Hence the reference to them as "toons."

Good point.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 09:07:40 -0700
Subject: Thoughts on Traveller Feudalism

After having watched the discussions of Year 0 and the role and nature =
of the nobility in Traveller I took some time to study feudalism as it =
has existed in our own history.  Here follows a few opinions on the =
discussion.

I believe that a monolithic nobility all serving at the pleasure of the =
Emperor is not as strong a realm for adventure and conflict as Traveller =
deserves, especially in Year 0.
The history of feudalism and nobility is filled with divided loyalties, =
subinfeudation and the richness of history that extends from such a =
situation.

1.  An example of subinfeudation and divided loyalties from a current =
campaign set in the post-virus era follows:

Lord Bertrand Charles Worchester is a Baron of the Imperial Court at =
Mora serving without a fief at the bloody edge of the newly reformed =
Imperium in Vland Sector. He is a Baron by the grace of the newly =
proclaimed Emperor (who most recently was simply Regent.) Before the =
Emperor made him a Baron he was a Knight Commander of the Order of =
Imperial Regency and therefore sworn to the Sovereign of the Order (who =
is not the Emperor.) He operates in Vland Sector which is the =
jurisdiction of a Duke sworn to the Archduke of Rylanor. The Duke was =
recently assassinated and if they Duchess, his wife, names him a Count =
and provides Lord Worchester with a fief then he will then be sworn to =
her also.

What do we have? A man sworn to the Sovereign of a Order, the Emperor, =
and soon perhaps, to a Duchess. A situation ripe for intrigue, conflict =
and adventure. Also a situation which mirrors the conflicting loyalties =
of our own western medieval history.

2.  A comment about what this would mean for the fighting forces of the =
Imperium.

Most Traveller materials take for granted a monolithic Imperial Navy and =
Marine.  One of the duties of a feudal lord was to raise and maintain =
troops to serve his liege in times of conflict. If we take the =
historical situation and extend it to the Traveller Universe we would =
then have the naval units and marine forces of the Duchy of Park called =
to service of the emperor. These forces would include the ships and men =
raised by Count Parquad and Baron Nivar all wearing distinctive insignia =
and flying the colors of their liege.

Just some thoughts.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 14 Sep 1996 17:01:35 GMT
Subject: Traveller Software (hopefully) Available

I've just uploaded hqx versions of my Traveller software:

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html


There are three HyperCard stacks and a stand-alone application.

------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:20:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Browser Survey:  Thanks for the responses!

Folks,

I am closing the browser survey 15 Sept 1996 at midnight EST5EDT.  I have
lots of 
responses that I now have to collate and I will be posting the results both
on the web and to these lists..

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:47:18 -0400
Subject: Re: 76 Patrons

Much in the way Lewis (I couldn't find his last name) just posted several
ship designs - If patron entries never saw light of day beyond appearing
here, they'd still get wide (and appreciated!) exposure...  - Bill

>76 patrons was invaluable, especially for diversions from larger campaigns.
>Hopefully, IG will include a dozen such encounters in the back of every
>source book and publish a larger collection.
>
>Maybe we could write such a thing here on the TML.
>
>
>


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 09:33:57 -0700
Subject: Re: Expert Systems

On 13 Sep 1996, My brother wrote:

>> The moral of the story.  Never trust a computer to do a soldier's work.  A
>> M1-A2 may have computers tracking everything but how many dirty letters
>>the driver has got from his girlfriend, but it is still the crew that
picks >>the targets and engages them.

>Ah, now *this* gets into a fascinating area.  The concept Doug's getting 
>at here is "Human in the loop," or HITL in acronymese.  The US armed 
>forces are much, *much* happier when any given weapon system has a human 
>in the primary decision-making role when it comes to firing the weapon -- 
>which only makes sense.  Alas, on the modern battlefield, the time and 
>sensory constraints are becoming tight enough that it's sometimes 
>impractical to put a human in the loop.

But only sometimes.. the essence of 3cI is to put your men in a position
where they have a basic knowledge of what to expect, so that fire control
and discipline is maintained.  This is a basic as "don't shoot until you see
the whites of their eyes".  I'm certain that a Trepida has an excellent fire
control system that includes sensor profiles for all known threat vehicles
and some sort of IFF system, however, the final shoot/no shoot is going to
be the gunner's job.

Something that just occured to me.. in the early days of the Rebellion, how
many battles came to a screeching halt when the fire control programs
announced that that was an Imperial tank/ship/whatever, and couldn't be
engaged... (Imagining the face of some Admiral as the computer tells him
that he's in violation of Navy reg KS3558.635-3(y))

>An excellent example is the Phalanx point-defense system, which is
>intended as a last-ditch counter to cruise missile attacks against naval
>vessels.  If I'm scribbling on this envelope correctly, the interval
>between when a wave-skimming cruise missile comes over the horizon (as
>seen from 40 feet above the waterline) to impact is less than 4 seconds. 
>Given the details of how a Phalanx operates, it better start firing within
>a second after detection to have a good chance of hitting the missile. 
>There's no way a human can have a say in that kind of decision. 

Which is why we spend MCr on point defence fire control for our vehicles.
That is the "turn it loose" type of weapon you are talking about.  Speaking
from experience, an Apache helicopter can hide behind terrain, and give you
less than three seconds exposure and fire *six* AT missles at six different
targets.  In the face of this, the Army is already developing
counter-measures, such as prismatic smoke to defeat the targeting laser.
Having a small chaingun slaved to a low-power radar as a point defence
weapon would be a good idea.  that would be the kind of thing that became
part of the battle drill: "atomic batteries to power, turbines to speed,
point defence active and scanning."

>Even when a human is in the loop, the trend in modern weaponry is clearly
>toward machines identifying, sorting, and prioritizing targets, a human
>picking one from the list, and then the machines engaging the chosen
>target.  This is happening most slowly in ground combat, which is the most
>cluttered, confusing, hard-to-analyze kind.

Tell me about it.  There is progress being made however.  The Army is
testing an outgrowth of the GPS system that allows every vehicle in the unit
to know where his comrades are, and reiceve updated enemy information as
battalion processes contact reports.  This allows for junior commanders to
have a much better picture of what is happening around them.

Most tank combat happens at about 750-1000m, Infantry engages at 50m(!) This
tells you the nature of the two "contact" arms.  Tanks can have all the
bells and whistles they want; I want a good rifle and a deep hole.  Using
Combat/Battledress you could put a transponder/IFF system in, but you don't
want to give an infantryman to much to look at, or he won't see the bad guy
until to late.

>It's progressing much more rapidly in naval and air warfare.  Incidents
like >the Stark (Phalanx turned off, ship trashed by Exocet) and the
Vincennes >(Aegis fire-control system on, designates Iranian airbus as
hostile, humans >rubber-stamp this decision, hundred of civilians die) are
cautionary markers >on a trail which we're nonetheless following.  And as
technology improves, >ground combat *will* follow suit, though probably
always lagging sea, air, >and space combat.

Very true, although when all is said and done, it will still come down to a
bunch of dirty, tired guys with rifles (bolt-action, ACR, Gauss, or plasma..
makes no difference) crawling through the remains of a city.

Infantry-  The Queen of Battle!


+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:57:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Long night, big empire

Woof.  A J2 limit would change things...   Traders might not care (the small
timers referred to in previous postings who use the T4 trade tables to drag
little cargos from port to port) because they're just looking for a port
where they can dump cargo - but J2 would certainly restrict the military's
and diplomatic corps' options when THEY wanted to move!  No more
(relatively) instant reactions... - Bill

>
>BTWm, from looking at the TL tables in MT, no one is likely to have
>anything greater than jump-2 in Year 0, right? The Terrans
>had Jump-3 during the Nth Interstell wars and the rule of man, 
>but that's TL 13 and all gone now... the rediscovery of
>jump-3 will "shrink" the new empire signifigantly...
>
>ANyways, just some thoughts,
>Ethan
>
>
>


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 13:20:19 -0400
Subject: Re: AD&D CORE RULES CD-ROM

<...cut>
>Boy, would I love to see something like this for TRAVELLER! (That's a STRONG
>hint for ya, Imperium Games!) My copy was $49.95. Add up the cover price of
>those five books, and you can quickly see that this was a bargain!
>        Iamgine the basic rules, Central Supply Catalog, Starships, First
>Survey and Mileau 0 all one one CD-ROM, with a sector generator, character
>creation program, shipbuilding program based on QSDS, maybe even a subsector
>map-maker and a program for running trade and commerce on the map, and a
>starship combat assistant. That would be great!
>                                        Allen
>
>
Haven't I seen somewhere in this list's postings comment to the effect that
Imperium/FFE plan to release pre-T4 materials this way, or did I imagine
this?  Anybody remember/remember differently?
- - Bill

------------------------------

From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 12:02:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller Software (hopefully) Available

Rob Prior said:
> I've just uploaded hqx versions of my Traveller software:
> 
> http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html

When I tried to get one of your links:
  http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/Metator.sit.bin

The response was:
404 Not Found

The requested URL /~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/Metator.sit.bin was 
not found on this server. 

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 13:23:51 -0400
Subject: RE: Imperial Government

<...cut>
>>
>>So in those cases, wouuld the bureacracy be in a large building in the
capital 
>>city?  Housed in the starport?  (ie. When the players say, "We're looking for 
>>the Imperial government building," what are they likely to find?)
>>
>>						---Boyd

Sort of like the various Federal Bldgs you find scattered in state capitals
around the USA... 
- - Bill


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 05:57:37 UT
Subject: RE: Deck Plans

<sweet chorus of vioces>  "We LOVE you Rob..."

<gutteral demonic vioces> "wE wAnT dEcKpLaNs Now!!!"

 <grin>

Seriously, I'm looking forward to seeing some of your deckplans.  I remember 
playing Snapshot and my campaign seems to be missing that kind of element.  I 
hope that you will start with all the CT ship designs and then branch out from 
there.  Question:  If I sent you a (paintbrush) sketch of a ship design, plus 
its QSDS stats, how difficult would it be for you to come up with a deckplan?  
Would you be willing to do this?

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 05:45:27 UT
Subject: RE: dudley do-right

Chad "Isn't that illegal" Cicconi said:

>Boyd asked about straight-laced, above board characters.  Well, that is >more 
difficult than it sounds.  I have been playing CT off and on for about >eight 
years, and have been playing a scout captain named Alexander >Hood.  Despite 
his best efforts and desires to remain above board and >straight laced, his 
colleagues in the PC group nearly always outvoted him >and hatched some 
hairbrained, illegal, violent, dangerous scheme.  I fail >to see how any 
single PC could remain entirely straight laced and above >board unless the 
entire PC group was of the same mindset.  

Aaahh, that is where the ref's get much of their enjoymment -- watching a 
diverse group of PCs negotiate their way through the adventure.  Mild conflict 
between PCs heighten that excitement.  ;-)>

>Rob Flammang (our gm, also known as the "high-guard" guy) can attest >to the 
truth of my opinion (I hope).
>
>                               Chad "isn't that illegal" Cicconi
>                                
>aka Captain Alexander Hood.  

Well, IMHO, the ref should provide a few hidden (or not-so-hidden) advantages 
for the straight-laced PC.  Although we are talking about technique, and each 
ref's style is different, it might make for some interesting game play if one 
of the PCs can do some things because of his/her general morality or ethics.

For example, a psionic may approach the PCs and probe them (assuming they are 
not shielded, of course) to see of any are trustworthy.  A psionic will want 
to contact the most morally upright individual and probably aviod contact with 
the others.

Another example may be that the PCs reputation as a goody two-shoes has 
preceeded him/her and certain NPCs would react to the group like this, "If 
Alexander Hood says so, then it is so."   -or-   "I'll lend you my air/raft if 
Captain Hood drives it, I know that he can be trusted..."

Terminally honest people are few and far between, but they stick together as 
well.  The morally upright PC is more likely to have trustworthy NPCs as 
contacts, since there is a mutual trust between them.

	---Boyd "makes us WORK for a +1 sword" Schneider


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #411
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Traveller-digest        Saturday, 14 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 412

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Do you know...
         2. RE: 76 Patrons (Very Long)
         3. Re: Thoughts on Trade
         4. Re: Deck Plans
         5. Re: T4 availability
         6. Re: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs again)
         7. Re: Dudley Do-Right
         8. Re: Expert Systems
         9. How do I contact Rob on list admin issues?
        10. Re: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs
        11. Goody 2 Shoes...
        12. RE: Do you know...
        13. How does your game taste?
        14. Traveller Poster Book

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lan Kelly <CyberWere@ConnectI.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 13:45:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Do you know...

At 14:32 9/13/96 UT, you wrote:
>Does anybody know how much an empty (no cargo) tractor-trailor rig (16 or 18 
>wheeler) weighs?
>
>						---Boyd

Rough, but knowledgable guess.  A 1993 Freightliner (tables I have) tractor
weights around 10,000 lbs empty plus fuel (60 gal), water & oil add another
1000 to 1500 lbs.  A trailer is more iffy, for a 40' van I'd say about 6000
to 8000 lbs.  A sleeper would be another 1000 to 4000 lbs, varies greatly
with design and comfort.  All told empty weight would be in the neighborhood
of 20,000 lbs (9000 kg).  Max weight requirements vary per state and change
almost yearly.  IIRC it's 80,000 lbs (36,000 kg) in Texas, others are from
55,000 to 100,000.

Hope this helps.  
LAN


Lan Kelly       CyberWere@ ConnectI.com      San Antonio, Texas
***********
"Diplomats are just as essential in starting a war as soldiers are in
finishing it."
Will Rogers


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 06:50:27 UT
Subject: RE: 76 Patrons (Very Long)

I always loved 76 Patrons, and I tried to use that format whenever I designed 
patron encounters of my own.    I would be willing to contribute to a patrons 
collection on TML.  

What the heck, I'll just paste one here now for folks to use.  This is one I 
designed after picking up CT again after 7 years of non-play.

This is Copyright Boyd Schneider 1996, free for your use but not for 
publication without my written permission. 
- --------------------------------------------------
"Evidence"  A patron encounter for one player.
Armond Jocoby, an attorney from a local law firm has approached the character 
with an offer that will pay handsomely if the character is successful.  A 
wealthy businessman will be on trial in a few weeks and a valuable piece of 
evidence is necessary to bring about a favorable outcome on behalf of his 
client.

Armond Jacoby - UPP 8769A8 - Age 40	
Liason-4, Vehicle-2, Recruiting-1, Computer-2, (other skills if necessary)

The attorney will produce a contract promising to pay the character and 
reimburse the character's travel expenses in the form of two mid passages upon 
successful delivery of the documents.  The attorney will provide a sealed 
letter of subpoena for notarized copies of the documents in question.

1-2	The attorney's client is the defendant, and the charges brought against 
him are false.  The evidence are signed and dated documents which prove the 
defendant was in another system on the date the defendant allegedly committed 
the crime.  The attorney will pay Cr.15,000 on delivery of the documents.  If 
the character attempts to sell the documents to the opposing attourneys, 
Jacoby's firm will file a law suit against the character.

4	As above, except the attorney's client is the plaintiff, and the documents 
prove that the defendant was at a particular location and is guilty of the 
accusations.  The plaintiff's law firm will offer Cr.15,000 for the documents. 
 The character may attempt to sell the evidence to the defendant's attorney, 
who will cautiously cooperate, for a higher sum.

5	The attourney represents the plaintiff, and the defendant is a member of the 
local organized crime syndicate and the character will be followed to the 
location of the documents.  After the character receives the documents, a thug 
hired by the defendants attorney's will attempt to kill the character and 
steal the documents.  The law firm will offer Cr25,000 for the documents, but 
can be persuaded to pay up to Cr40,000 if the character complains about the 
hazard.

Thug - AA9644 - Age 32
Brawling-2, Pistol-2, Blade-2, Streetwise-2

6	As 1 above, but the defendant is a leader of the local mafia and some time 
after successful delivery of the documents, the leader will summon the 
character to his lavish home to show his appreciation.  The leader will speak 
admirably of the character's ability to "retrieve" things and will offer a job 
running small packages and cash back and forth from this world and the origin 
of the documents.  If the character refuses, the leader will be gracious, but 
will not hassle the character again.  If the character accepts the offer, 
there will be more adventure ahead.
- --------------------------------------------------

						---Boyd

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 14:34:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Trade

>On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> > The most notorious triangle was sugar from the West Indies to New Engla
>> > where it was purchased for the manufacture of rum.
>> 
>> Better check your facts. Rum is made from *molasses*, which is a
>> *byproduct* of sugar production. That's why the rum was generally
>> produced *in* the West Indies!

Leonard, I'm afraid you've stepped onto *my* field of expertise, so get
ready for the lecture. <g>

First, I know that rum is made from molasses and that molasses is made from
sugar.  Molasses is a byproduct of sugar production in the way that diesel
fuel is a byproduct of oil refining.  The reason much of the sugar cane was
partially refined, ie converted into molasses and brown sugar, was because
it travelled better, was more compact, and could be sold at higher prices. 
Not very much was fully refined in the Indies, that was too costly.  And
yes, rum was made in the Indies in some quantities, but that rum was
consumed locally or shipped to Europe.  It didn't really figure into the
Triangle Trade.

Now about the Triangle Trade...

"The first part of the journey was a voyage from colonial seaports to
Africa.  The colonial ships carried rum and finished goods which were
traded on the west coast of Africa for gold and slaves.  On the second part
of the journey, the ships sailed from Africa to the West Indies with a ship
load of slaves.  In the West Indies, the slaves were traded for molasses,
[brown] sugar or money.  The final leg of the triangle was the ships'
journey from the West Indies back to New England.  In the colonies, the
molasses and sugar were sold to distillers and made into rum.  The ships
were ready to fill their holes with rum and repeat the three steps in the
triangular trade."
    -- _America it's People and Values_; Dr Leonard Wood, Dr Ralph
        Gabriel, Mr Edward Biller; 1975; p105.
        
There were many trading cycles, but the one known historically as the
"Triangle Trade" is the one described above.  This trade cycle remained
profitable for independent merchants for well over 100 years.  Normally, a
profitable long-term trading cycle is taken over by big companies, but that
never happened with the "Trade", and the reason why is the same reason it
was *so* notorious...it was illegal from stem to stern!

The West Indies ports the colonial ships stopped at were often French,
Dutch or Spanish.  These ports were off limits to them by both English and
the French/Dutch/Spanish law.  Nobody paid taxes or tariffs on the slaves
sold and the molasses and sugar bought.  The ships did not sail to England
for Doc Stamps, as law required, instead smuggled their cargos into
American ports, where Customs Officers were bribed, intimidated, or
otherwise avoided.

The ships leaving the New England ports sailed directly to, mainly
Portuguese, colonies on the west coast of Africa, not to England, so no Doc
Stamps, no taxes.  Trading with the Portuguese was illegal too, but that
didn't stop the Americans, they sold their loads of rum and goods for a
tidy profit.  They filled their holes with gold, silver, ivory, and slaves
with part of their profits,
pocketing the rest.  Then it was off to the West Indies again to sell the
slaves and buy sugar and molasses for the next cycle.

In the American colonies 'illegal' activities were common.  Trade with the
indian nations was supposedly regulated, but unauthorized expeditions were
common.  Rum, whiskey, and trinkets for fur was profitable and they weren't
going to let laws get in the way.

Land development in the west was, first 'discouraged', then
'regulated', then 'controlled', and finally 'prohibited.' Nobody paid any
attention, they kept moving west and taking the land.  When the colonists
got into trouble they called for help, and if it didn't come or they were
forced to leave their land they grumbled, and complained.  Eventually they
went back this time with their own militias to back them up.

It was illegal to manufacture hats, woolens, ironware and many other
products, but the Americans did it anyway.  First, in small quantities for
local consumption.  Then in larger quantities for trade among themselves. 
Eventually, in quantities too large for the English to miss..or ignore. 

The crack-downs on these 'crimes' were sporadic and usually
ineffective.  Over time they made the Americans more and more
estranged from the "mother country", and as much as anything lead to the
Revolution.

Back to the Trade...

The merchants were taking a big chance on every voyage, on every leg of the
voyage.  They either made a quick killing...or they got killed.  So, they
armed their ships and didn't hesitate to "defend" themselves.  The
successful grew rich and either went 'legit' with more (but usually not
entirely) legal routes, or used their funds to branch into other promising
modes of speculation....

"In times of war, some of them ventured into the profitable business of
privateering, and since the distinction between war and peace was not
always clear in these years, a few of them extended their activities into
piracy."
    -- _The History of the United States_; Dr Charles Warren; 1967;
        p119.

...and banking, land speculation, the fur trade, and manufacturing.

Now the Traveller hook...

If you want to run a Trading Game you can lay out a similar set of
circumstances in your game Universe.  You need several factions, pocket
empires frex, with a large intermixed area of stars on a main.  Throw in
some restrictive laws concerning trade with other factions.  Add loose
enforcement of the trade laws (dump those dang transponders).  And finish
it off with some trade items that you can buy cheaply here and sell dearly
there.  You'll have the conditions that created the "Spanish Main" and the
adventure of the 1650-1800 period.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 15:08:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Deck Plans

On 09/14/96 at 03:55 PM,  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
said:

>I've been thinking about how to accomodate the combat system (based on
>1.5m squares) with my existing 25mm designs.  The most obvious solution
>seems to be to use a 3/4" grid instead of a 1" grid, while keeping the
>ship/building scale the same.  Because these grids are on a separate layer
>in my original drawings, I can easily enough produce TNE (2m squares) and
>T4 (1.5m squares) versions of the same deckplan.  I could also produce a
>version without grid markings.

Whoa!  When did that happen?  

I thought T4 was going to use 2m x 2m squares (like TNE), as opposed to
CT/MT's 1.5m x 1.5m squares..right?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "Matt Lewis" <lewis@griffin.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 22:07:35 +0100
Subject: Re: T4 availability

Simon John Harding wrote:

> Imperium Games would not be
> doing good business if they have almost depleted a first run at this
> stage, when neither (apparently) the UK nor Australasia have even seen
> the product. 

The UK HAS seen the product, BITS were selling it at Euro GenCon, as were 
Caliver Books and Leisure Games. I assume the latter two are now selling 
it mail order.

- -------------------------------------
Matt Lewis mailto:lewis@griffin.co.uk
http://www.griffin.co.uk/users/lewis/

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 13:27:10 -0700
Subject: Re: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs again)

Andy Lilly wrote:
>  
> A quick apology for not having distributed this information earlier, however
> I've been a bit busy getting back to real work...
> 
> I have about half the BITS hardback order which Ken brought over in his hand
> luggage for Euro GEN CON. We did have 4 boxes of softbacks and more
> hardbacks, but all that got sold at EGC. The hardbacks will be posted this
> weekend - some people already know that there will be a delay (that's you
> Colin!) and I haven't got my own copy yet - there's sacrifice for you!
> 
> >> The game needs new players to survive!
> 
> Well, given the response at EGC, we'll get them. I think the use of
> demonstration games to promote it is extremely important though. Ken told us
> the average hit rate of [people at demo table] to [people buying rule books]
> is rarely more than 6:1, i.e. 1 purchase per 6 participants. I reckon we
> were doing much better than that.
> 
> WHAT'S THE ANSWER: GET OUT THERE AND START DEMO'ING TRAVELLER AT YOUR LOCAL
> STORE!!!!

I'm doing that, Andy. Not only is in the Hobby's interests, it's in _mine_ (more players 
means more fun to be had!).

> 
> Ok, you need a bit of organisation - I know Ken's pursuing links with the
> RPGA and things like that. But in order to promote the game, it requires
> experienced gamers like ourselves to actually go out and encourage people
> into buying. After you get a certain momentum, the number of new gamers
> telling their own friends means that you can cut back on the demos...
> 
> If any people in the US would like to help, give IG a ring and tell them
> where you are and which shops you could do - or better still, which
> conventions in your local area you could help with. You can't expect Ken,
> Lester, etc. to attend everything themselves - they'd have no time to
> actually produce the products we're expecting from them.
> 
> If anyone needs any advice, I'm sure there are experienced con-organisers on
> this list - EGC was the first one I'd ever been to - but I can make simple
> suggestions about things you can do, i.e. we had a clear image of BITS
> supporting IG in the UK; we had T-shirts (same picture as our adventure with
> Traveller logo at top and BITS at bottom); we had some poster frame/board
> things which had been scrapped from my workplace, on which I pasted a range
> of Traveller and BITS advertising posters (for which, read Freelance designs
> blown up on a colour photocopier), etc.
> 
> Similarly in the UK - we recruited a lot of BITS members at EGC and we'll be
> trying to liaise with major retailers to do demos, etc. e.g. at Virgin in
> London.
> 
> CHRIS FOSS IS A JOLLY NICE GUY<<deletia>>

> 
> The rise of GW sort of makes me think of the words of Billy Joel's "No Man's
> Land" - if you know the song you'll know what I mean - commercialism is here
> to stay... another reason for needing pretty colour pictures in the new
> Traveller rules! :-)

Great production values don't hurt, but I can remember the days when production values 
didn't really matter. 


> Yup, the industry's dying, but there are still pockets of resistance. Your
> mission, should you choose to accept it, is to keep these people going, by
> ordering mail order.

"Keep the Flame"

> 
> On that note, BITS is always on the look out for reliable traders and shops
> selling Traveller stuff - old or new. So if you've got a shop (in the
> British Isles) which you'd like to see on our list, just send me the details.
> 
> Anyone in the US running a similar list or have you got so many shops it's
> not worthwhile?

Some game distributors (Armory and Wargames West) used to list the phone numbers of 
stores in alphabetic order by state, but these ads offer no warranty as to how good, 
from a gamer point-of-view, the stores really are. Most listed stores are comics shops, 
which usually stock only the best-selling games (WW, T$R, WotC, etc...).

Will your adventure "The Long Way Home" eventually make its way over here? I want a 
copy, Andy!

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 13:08:57 -0700
Subject: Re: Dudley Do-Right

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 
> I was kinda wondering about what kind of PC roles your players have played in
> your campaigns.

My players play fast and loose with the firearms laws of the various worlds they visit 
- -- but then again, so do the NPCs -- but other than assault/manslaughter, my players 
stay away from crime.

In my TNE game, most of the PCs are troopers of some kind -- Marines are favored. 
The Army, Navy and Scouts are represented, but most of the characters are lean, green 
killin' machines.

In my T4 game, _nobles_ dominate the game. This may change as IG comes out with the 
Really Big Guns Book (CSC).

As for the characters I play -- my favorite is an (TNE) ex-Marine Special Ops LtCol with 
a professorial bent (his college degree is in History, specializing in Ancient Solomani 
Military History, which lets him quote everyone from Homer and Sun-Tsu to Guderian and 
Colin Powell). I wanted to play someone who was _not_ a square-jawed WASP, so I made him 
 Sino-Solomani. As a Marine, he could be expected to be an expert in hand-to-hand 
combat, so his other passion became, yes, Unarmed Martial Arts. Thus was born Wu Li, 
callsign Kung Fu, of the Aubani Marines.

As far as criminality is concerned, Li believes in the RC's ideals, but he does the 
thinking and moralizing before and after the mission. He once brought up a fellow PC up 
on charges after a S&G when it was discovered that the other PC killed two civilians in 
a DZ who were fleeing and not a threat. The PC beat the charges (the courts-martial was 
a dramatic highlight of the entire campaign), and Li was pulled from the team ("RAM 
grenades are simply _too_ effective against light BD, and it's too easy to miss with one 
. . . accidents happen, Colonel Li."). The other PC learned from this, and he eventually 
became the conscience of the team.

> 
> I have a player who has yet to break any law (Imperial or otherwise) in about
> 8 months of playing Traveller.  This is almost a record for my games -- since
> nearly everyone wants to get involved with piracy, smuggling, or they at least
> cut corners here and there while adventuring.  It is unusual in that all the
> NPC's I've been running in this adventure are pretty tame: college professors,
> news editors, TAS desk clerks, tour guides, etc.  It has been a unique
> experience in my gaming life.

What, no Yuppies? ;) The NPCs in my T4 game are fellow nobles, retainers, and criminals. 
One of the retainers is a Rogue trying to go straight. Unfortunately, she is what one 
can call a Trouble Magnet. No matter how hard she tries to stay out of hack, trouble 
inevitably finds her. She _never_, and I mean NEVER starts the Trouble, but she has such 
a degree of Unluck that her roguish skills never want for practice.

> 
> So, I was wondering, does anyone else have any strictly above-board,
> straight-laced players?

In a word: not me.


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 13:50:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Expert Systems

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
<<deletia>>
> 
> But only sometimes.. the essence of 3cI is to put your men in a position
> where they have a basic knowledge of what to expect, so that fire control
> and discipline is maintained.  This is a basic as "don't shoot until you see
> the whites of their eyes".  I'm certain that a Trepida has an excellent fire
> control system that includes sensor profiles for all known threat vehicles
> and some sort of IFF system, however, the final shoot/no shoot is going to
> be the gunner's job.
> 
> Something that just occured to me.. in the early days of the Rebellion, how
> many battles came to a screeching halt when the fire control programs
> announced that that was an Imperial tank/ship/whatever, and couldn't be
> engaged... (Imagining the face of some Admiral as the computer tells him
> that he's in violation of Navy reg KS3558.635-3(y))

"Well, PO, override the bastard and FIRE AT WILL!"

"Sir, which one's Will?"
> 

> 
>
> 
> Tell me about it.  There is progress being made however.  The Army is
> testing an outgrowth of the GPS system that allows every vehicle in the unit
> to know where his comrades are, and reiceve updated enemy information as
> battalion processes contact reports.  This allows for junior commanders to
> have a much better picture of what is happening around them.

The American combat vehicles in _Executive Orders_ carry just such as system: the 
Individual Vehicle Information System (IVIS). This system is used to great effect at the 
NTC and on the battlefield in the novel. The original intent of IVIS was to prevent  
friendly-fire incidents like those that killed so many troopers in the Gulf War. The 
next step might be to add datalink point-defense (aka AEGIS) capability to IVIS with 
turret MGs slaved to the system as opposition missiles get smarter.

<<deletia>>
> 
> Very true, although when all is said and done, it will still come down to a
> bunch of dirty, tired guys with rifles (bolt-action, ACR, Gauss, or plasma..
> makes no difference) crawling through the remains of a city.
> 
> Infantry-  The Queen of Battle!

You got it, Doug!

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 19:36:00 -0500
Subject: How do I contact Rob on list admin issues?

  I tried sending to "traveller-request" as has been
  traditional (if I recall correctly); what I got back was a
  response from Majordomo that it didn't understand a damn thing
  I said.

  I was suggesting to Rob that the list buffers for both TML and
  XTML be flushed into a final digest daily at 20:00 - the last
  XTML that came through had messages spanning over a week -
  which to me clearly contributes to the perception that
  there's no activity, prompting the "<knock, knock>  Is this
  thing on?" messages.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Nothing can go wrong now, go wrong, gow rong, grong!

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 17:05:23 -0800
Subject: Re: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs

On 14 Sep 96 at 13:27, somebody stated:

> > Yup, the industry's dying, but there are still pockets of
> > resistance. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to
> > keep these people going, by ordering mail order.

Egad, this is a tired and cobweb covered argument...and I'm not sure 
how accurate it is at the moment.  Go onto any of the rec.games.* 
newsgroups, and you can see this same tired argument from the point 
of view of that particular newsgroup.

No, you're not going to see T4 stocked at your local Sears (as you used to 
with D&D stuff).  Really, the difference between then and now is 
there are more choices.  When I bought my first Traveller books, the 
RPG genre was limited to:  Tunnels and Trolls, En Garde, AD&D, D&D, 
Gamma World, and that was about it.  A few things came out a year or 2 
later, but for a long time, Traveller succeeded because it was first 
(and best) on the shelves in its genre.  I can't tell you how many people 
bought the 1st black boxed set, and never bought anything else for the game.  
I have a neighbor who has 2 of them, who has never bought anything else for 
the game, or even played it.  I doubt even AD&D doesn't have the market share 
it had then.  

T4 is not going to sell this way.  To make the new edition succeed, we 
need to run it at tournaments, run it in stores that offer space for the 
purpose, and be visible at the game stores.  The store that I bought my 
softcover from wound up selling another couple of copies the same day 
because I talked to the person running the shop about it, and I knew 
a little bit about what the new system was like...and other customers 
started asking ME questions about it.  FWIW, we know A LOT more 
about T4 than most of the folks selling it...

As for the generic, XXX is dying comment...  (Fill in XXX with 
wargames, RPG's, miniatures, CCG's, the fringe hobby of your choice)  
I offer the following rebuttal:

In my community, there are more game stores now than there have been 
at any time since I started gaming (as a board gamer, I must admit) 
back in '76.  Two of the ones here are doing such a brisk business that 
they've opened second locations in the last 12-18 months.  The hobby 
is basically in specialty retailers, and not all that present in the hobbyshops 
and certainly not in the mass retailers of a few years ago, but IMHO 
this was all but inevitable.  CCG's have taken a little away from the RPG 
market, but eventually, CCG people are going to realize that strip it down 
to the basics, and they're playing a card game, nothing more and nothing less.  

Nothing in the world quite equals the dynamic storytelling nature of a good RPG, 
where referee and PC's together weave a story.  For this reason, RPG's as a 
hobby will never die.  But IMNSHO, just throwing a good product on 
the shelves, without supporting it, isn't going to work like it has 
in the past.  I've converted 3 new players to Traveller in the last several 
months.  I've got a couple of other people I plan to work in during 
the next few months...  Far from dying, I am beginning to think they 
may be about to undergo a renaissance...

> "Keep the Flame"

Damn straight... :-)

> Will your adventure "The Long Way Home" eventually make its way over
> here? I want a copy, Andy!

I'm an interested prospective customer as well on this 1.  Good job 
on the European support, Andy.

Nice comments, Rich.
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 17:13:18 -0800
Subject: Goody 2 Shoes...

Generally speaking, players in my games have a hard time staying out 
of trouble with the law.  I tend to play up the strange cultural 
aspects of alien worlds in my campaigns.

Quite often, PC's violate laws in my campaign they might never have 
known existed.  

My players tend to play somewhat strait-laced with most things, but 
often find themselves put in positions, where the best answer IS to 
break the law...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 12:32:24 UT
Subject: RE: Do you know...

Lan Kelly gave me a "rough but knowledgable" answer to my question on tractor 
trailor weights.

Thanks Lan.

						---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 12:53:23 UT
Subject: How does your game taste?

Answers to my question about types of characters prompted me to ask another 
question.  I provide multiple choice answers to facilitate discussion.  
Hopefully you will elaborate beyond the mere answer provided.  Please give 
anecdotes, I think I'm speaking for many of us when I say that I enjoy hearing 
tales of your characters/adventures!  :-)>

1)  What "style" or "flavor" of Traveller play do you participate in?

a) FREE-WHEELING: A campaign where PCs wander about in search of adventure, 
often setting their own goals and objectives in spite of various rumors and 
encounters by the referee.

b) STORY-TELLING:  A campaign where PCs participate in a story, pretty-much 
narrated/controlled by the referee.

c) ONE SHOT ADVENTURES:  A series of individual adventures, where PCs may or 
may not be the same every time, but otherwise unrelated to one another as they 
would be in a campaign.

d) OTHER:  Another style that doesn't fit in the above.

			---Boyd						

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 20:47:09 -0500
Subject: Traveller Poster Book

Hey, I was in my FNGS today and I got to look at one of "THE GAME
DISTRIBUTORS ORDER BOOKS."   I saw something in there that I had never heard
of before.  Can anyone here (or preferbly at Imperium Games) tell me what a
"Traveller Poster Book" is.  Also IG, how about an update of the product
page with some of the books listed in the distributors book like the "Guns
of the Imperium Book" or the "Handbook for the School of Psionics" or even
"Anomolies."  I for one would be very interested in seeing the product
writeup info you have on this stuff.

PS - IG you might fill us in a bit about the comic book coming out in the
next few weeks.

Thanks guys!  :)


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #412
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Traveller-digest         Sunday, 15 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 413

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: How does your game taste?
         2. Re: Re: Traveller Software (hopefully) Available
         3. Re: Re: Deck Plans
         4. Psionics as a career
         5. Re: How does your game taste?
         6. Re: Deck Plans
         7. Contra/Anti Grav @ TL8?
         8. Traveller Software
         9. Re: 3rd Imperium,s Raj Complex
        10. Re: How does your game taste?
        11. Re: Deck Plans
        12. RE: Re: Deck Plans
        13. RE: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs
        14. RE: How does your game taste?
        15. RE: How does your game taste?
        16. Re: Imperial Representation 
        17. Re: sustainable technologie

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 19:56:42 -0800
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

>1)  What "style" or "flavor" of Traveller play do you participate in?

My reply also applies to every RPG I play\GM in.

>a) FREE-WHEELING: A campaign where PCs wander about in search of adventure, 
>often setting their own goals and objectives in spite of various rumors and 
>encounters by the referee.

I wish!  :)  As a GM I really wish my players were like this, and I have
tried to gently push them in that direction, but...well, PCs will be PCs.

>b) STORY-TELLING:  A campaign where PCs participate in a story, pretty-much 
>narrated/controlled by the referee.

This is basically the game style I play.  Without a sense of direction in an
adventure, my PCs won't do much really.  I have to give them not-so subtle
clues, or some sort of reward to 'gently' get them going.  I wish it were
different, but I hope they're changing.

Thanks,

Peter Miller
		
   _									       _
  \ /
\ /
  |*| Peter Miller --> PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com -->
www.dragonfire.net/~pm/|*|
  |*|-----------------------------------------------------------------------
- --|*|
  |*| "What a time to be alive...." - Dave Goldin, NASA Administrator
(8/6/96)|*|
  /_\ 									      /_\
    


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 15 Sep 1996 03:48:47 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Traveller Software (hopefully) Available

>When I tried to get one of your links:
>  http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/Metator.sit.bin

That should have been:

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/Metator.sit.hqx


Thought I'd uploaded the change.  I'll log in later tonight and fix it.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 15 Sep 1996 03:55:22 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Deck Plans

> <gutteral demonic vioces> "wE wAnT dEcKpLaNs Now!!!"

You'll have to wait for two reasons:

1) My only active game right now is Space: 1889, and I need to finish an
ether flyer for the next adventure.

2) My night school job starts this week, and my continuing ed course next
month (this in addition to a 50-60 hour day job).  This leaves very little
time for laundry, let alone gaming.  Now, if someone were to offer to mark 35
2000-word essays I could be persuaded to draw some deck plans :-)


Of course, if you remove the solar boiler the Space: 1889 vessels don't look
much more out of place than the colour illos in T4 :-)  Take a look at the
Harbringer when I post it next week...

------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 23:37:43 -0400
Subject: Psionics as a career

I've just finished the Psionics chapter of T4 and am a tad confused about
one thing.  How does one pursue a career (4 year stint, as noted in para 3,
col 2, p123, and detailed in the career description on p128?  

As I understand it, one does so by finding a pop 9+ planet with a branch of
the institute and then applying to be examined.  After examination, if one
is able to unlock one's potential (all in col 1, p123), one can pursue a
Psionicist career.  

Is the implication that the referee pulls the character out of an ongoing
career for 4 years to do so?  This would seem to be v. disruptive of all but
the longest campaigns...

Alternately, is the implication that characters who are pursuing careers
(pregame) can or should check to find branchs of the Psionics Institute, and
on finding same, may be examined and admitted?

I've worked this solution:  Between each 4 year term of pregame career, one
can check to see whether one served on a Pop 9+ world (1/12 chance) and if
so, make an attempt to find a branch of the Psionics Inst. as noted in col
1, p123.  If one locates a branch, one may test (if one has the money or
makes the requisite charity roll) and, if one wants to enter the institute,
one may change careers to attend school (again, assuming adequate funds or
charity).  Requiring the character to make a continuance roll in the prior
career gives a chance that, say, in the military, the character was not
released.  If the character elects to go to Psi school anyway, they incur
later adventure seeds as the police, military, disgruntled former
associates, etc., try to track them down and bring them to justice (or
whatever passes for...)  I suppose, if a characters from a Pop 9+ world, one
could check for a branch of the institute before pursuing ANY careers -
Making a Staggering INT roll without any modifiers would, of course, be
problematic, but not impossible...

The preceding works, tho it's inelegant.  I'm curious, however, as to what
the designers' intent was...  Comments?

- - Bill


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 23:47:10 -0400
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

<...cut>
>a) FREE-WHEELING: A campaign where PCs wander about in search of adventure, 
>often setting their own goals and objectives in spite of various rumors and 
>encounters by the referee.
>

This is what I'D like my players to be...  Typically, one in the group wants
to think, do things, gain power, etc., and the others, filled with paranoia
(from cops AND robbers), take the timid, do-nothing route...  

<...cut>
>b) STORY-TELLING:  A campaign where PCs participate in a story, pretty-much 
>narrated/controlled by the referee.
>

This is what generally happens.  If I cannot draw the players along with
enticements, I prod them along with hostile police, nasty gangsters, etc.
(maybe this is why some of them get to be paranoid?)

<...cut>
>c) ONE SHOT ADVENTURES:  A series of individual adventures, where PCs may or 
>may not be the same every time, but otherwise unrelated to one another as they 
>would be in a campaign.
>

Rare... most players in our group prefer continuity and the chance to build
on what's gone before...

- - Bill


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 23:57:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Deck Plans

<...cut>
>I thought T4 was going to use 2m x 2m squares (like TNE), as opposed to
>CT/MT's 1.5m x 1.5m squares..right?
>

Col 1, p52 (Movement) of T4 gives an outdoor scale of a range
band/hex/square of 15m and an indoor scale of 1.5m...  

- - Bill


------------------------------

From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 23:07:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Contra/Anti Grav @ TL8?

Did anyone notice that Contrgrav devices are now available at TL8? I'm
assuming that IG has slightly redefined the tech levels again?

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 22:47:49 -0500
Subject: Traveller Software

Douglas Berry spoke thus...

>There is also a wonderful program out there that does entire star
>systems for you.  Extended System Generator 1.1 builds the physical
>system from the star on out, leaving the details of population and
>culture to you.  DOS only, I can't remember which Traveller page it
>is on.  (Sorry, coffee hasn't kicked in yet..)

Doug has the coffee kicked in yet?  I'd really like to know where to find
Extended System Generator 1.1, and DOS only is fine with me.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 19:04:42 +1300
Subject: Re: 3rd Imperium,s Raj Complex

> 
> Two, the background, while still sparse, has got me excited. From
> the early days of the first publication of Supplement 3, "The
> Spinward Marches," many people have complained about CT's lack of
> opportunity for exploration and about the 3rd Imperium's
> omnipresence. MT tried to address this problem by shattering the
> Imperium. I think that the present solution --- adventuring "in the
> past" --- is a more satisfying one. It allows for exploration and
> war in a growing society, rather than a decaying one. All the decay
> following the Rebellion was just too depressing for me to want to
> adventure there.

I agree. What was always needed, and to some extent it was at the referees discretion, was an opportunity to 
adventure in an environment like the early years of the Dutch and English East India Companies at the 
forefront of an expending empire, operating in regions where "life was wild and, on the whole, tax free". An 
environment where one trading company could trade a Nutmeg rich island with another trading company for an 
island that would later become the largest city in the world. An environment where trading companies had 
imperial charters to establish trading links that would both return wealth to the home world but would also 
further the reaches of the empire. An environment where the nobility largely stayed home with their parlour 
games while the merchant/trader class with their attached Imperial troops and mercanaries took on their rivals 
in an enormous land and resource grab. That was the type of environment in which I always ran my CT campaign 
despite the growing wealth of background material which tended to describe an environment more like the later 
years of the great adventuring trading Companies, where power was shifting from the hands of the 
merchant/traders into those of the colonial civil service(the Raj).


------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 21:34:26 -0800
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

>>a) FREE-WHEELING: A campaign where PCs wander about in search of adventure, 
>>often setting their own goals and objectives in spite of various rumors and 
>>encounters by the referee.
>>
>
>This is what I'D like my players to be...  Typically, one in the group wants
>to think, do things, gain power, etc., and the others, filled with paranoia
>(from cops AND robbers), take the timid, do-nothing route...  

Same here.  I have only two players (unfortunately) and one is a very
go-getter, his characters seek out adventure, and he seems to understand the
idea behind roleplaying games.  The second player is a complete opposite.
Unless I'm dealing directly with him (hard since he does nothing) he's
rolling dice, looking at things in the gaming area, or eating\drinking.

><...cut>
>>b) STORY-TELLING:  A campaign where PCs participate in a story, pretty-much 
>>narrated/controlled by the referee.
>>
>
>This is what generally happens.  If I cannot draw the players along with
>enticements, I prod them along with hostile police, nasty gangsters, etc.
>(maybe this is why some of them get to be paranoid?)

Same here.  Angry\corrupt law enforcement is my favourite approach :)

><...cut>
>>c) ONE SHOT ADVENTURES:  A series of individual adventures, where PCs may or 
>>may not be the same every time, but otherwise unrelated to one another as
they 
>>would be in a campaign.
>>
>
>Rare... most players in our group prefer continuity and the chance to build
>on what's gone before...

Again, same here.  I suggested, in a long running AD&D campaign (characters
at 9th level) that we begin anew and I was almost lynched.  Needless to say,
we continued (the campaign ended on a messy note quite soon after with the
characters being ripped apart by gargoyles - this was a coincendence!)

Thanks,

Peter
		
   _									       _
  \ /
\ /
  |*| Peter Miller --> PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com -->
www.dragonfire.net/~pm/|*|
  |*|-----------------------------------------------------------------------
- --|*|
  |*| "What a time to be alive...." - Dave Goldin, NASA Administrator
(8/6/96)|*|
  /_\ 									      /_\
    


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 23:44:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Deck Plans

On 09/14/96 at 11:57 PM,  Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com> said:

>>I thought T4 was going to use 2m x 2m squares (like TNE), as opposed to
>>CT/MT's 1.5m x 1.5m squares..right?
>>

>Col 1, p52 (Movement) of T4 gives an outdoor scale of a range
>band/hex/square of 15m and an indoor scale of 1.5m...  

Well shoot, it does say that!  I *know* this is a change from what we heard
here this summer.

So, are we back to displacement tons being a pair of 1.5 squares? (1.5^2 x
1.5^2 x 3.1m) is approximately 14^m.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 17:22:14 UT
Subject: RE: Re: Deck Plans

In a previous message from Rob Prior:

>> <gutteral demonic vioces> "wE wAnT dEcKpLaNs Now!!!"
>
>You'll have to wait for two reasons:
>
<snip> <snip>

<chorus of lovely voices>  "That's okay, Rob, we still LOVE youuuu...."

<gutteral demonic voices> "DiE, rOb, DiE!!!"

					;-)>
					---Boyd


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 17:28:22 UT
Subject: RE: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs

Amongst lots of other, rather, self-important sounding words <grin>, Stuart L. 
Dollar said:

	>Gamma World

Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah!

<Boyd goes into an embarrassing fit of extacy>

:-)>

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 96 18:01:19 UT
Subject: RE: How does your game taste?

It is interesting to note that both Peter Miller and Bill Rutherford's 
experience is identical to mine.  What I try to do is provide a free-wheeling 
game environment allowing my players to assume an alter ego and "live that 
character's life" which is what I would do if I was playing and not ref'ing.  
Alas, most players don't "jack-in" to the game that way.

I am sad to say that my best player is going off to the Marines.  This guy 
would just roll up a PC and he would start playing.  He needed no 
introduction, he wouldn't be distracted by reading rulebooks, magazines, trips 
to the kitchen, he wouldn't talk incessantly about other games/books/movies 
during play.  He would pay attention to what was going on, so he would 
actually pick up on any idiosynchrasies thrown in as clues...  <sigh>

If only there was a college course for teaching good role players.

						---Boyd




------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 02:58:08 -0400
Subject: RE: How does your game taste?

<...cut>
>I am sad to say that my best player is going off to the Marines.  This guy 
>would just roll up a PC and he would start playing.  He needed no 
>introduction, he wouldn't be distracted by reading rulebooks, magazines, trips 
>to the kitchen, he wouldn't talk incessantly about other games/books/movies 
>during play.  He would pay attention to what was going on, so he would 
>actually pick up on any idiosynchrasies thrown in as clues...  <sigh>

Funny - My most enjoyable players were USMC - you don't suppose there's
something about being trained to jump off the ramps of LVTPs that makes for
good roleplayers?... - Bill


------------------------------

From: CardSharks@aol.com
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 05:53:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Imperial Representation 

In a message dated 96-09-11 17:56:15 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Concerning the whereabouts of the Imperial representation, I think 
 you would find it near the centers of government, rather than at 
 the spaceport (unless you found it at both).  I am thinking of 
 historical precedents.  Judging by Pontius Pilate, Rome's represen-
 tatives stayed in the local capitals, not the seaports.  Ditto, I 
 think, for the representatives of the British Empire.
  >>

I think the canon of Traveller is that there is no "rule" for where Imperial
representation would be. On a lo-pop world, it might be at the starport; on a
thriving industrial world, it might be near the centers of industry.
Virtually any position on this that is logical will find its expression
somewhere in the Traveller universe (and I suppose some positions that are
illogical as well).

Marc Miller
 

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 02:37:17 PST
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie

In mail you write:

> On 13 Sep 96 at 21:10, Leonard Erickson spewed:
>> > And I suspect that the loss of raw materials from the 3rd world
>> > would probably affect the US Economy (and therefore technology),
>> > more than we'd like to think...
>> 
>> But consider that the people producing those raw materials, and the
>> people supporting them, are a rather small fraction of the
>> poipulation of those countries.
>
> Granted, but realize that there is a lot BIGGER population for that 
> small fraction to be drawn from...
>
>> If aliens were to abduct all the people in the third world, we'd
>> have production restored rather quickly (and likely with *fewer*
>
> Not quickly, slowly.  First you'd have a lot of people in this 
> country who wound up being economically dislocated (Newspeak for 
> unemployed) because Acme Co. was no longer getting its regular 
> shipments of Part X, whose main component was hypothetesium, which is 
> mined mainly in Lower Slobovia...causing the ENTIRE assembly line to 
> shut down.
>
> Then you've got to teach these laid off auto workers, defense 
> workers, etc to become hypothetesium miners (this is not going to 
> happen overnight).  Of course this is simplifying things.  First of 
> all, you've got to convince them that becoming a hypothetesium miner 
> is even necessary, then you've got to convince them to move to 
> Slobovia, which incidentally, now has no government services, no 
> working infrastructure, and no support services.  

There aren't a lot of "critical" materials that are being produced
using shaft mining. Open pit mines are a lot easier to teach people to
work. And *much* easier to automate.

> And if you think the pizza guy from down the street is going to make 
> an adequate miner without training you're joking...chances are you're 
> going to have to do a tough sell just to convince him even to do it.  

Two comments:
1. Draft them (admittedly a last resort)
2. check the unemployment rate for members of the United Mine Workers.
   There are a lot of *trained* people available who aren't working.

> Think about the previous examples that happened, the Arab oil 
> embargoes.  In 1973, the Arabs stopped oil exports for 3 or 4 months, 
> and it creates instant chaos.  Long lines and rationing at the gas 
> pumps, wholesale layoffs.  The US was in a recession for 2 years as a 
> result of that 3 month problem...they even invented a new term for 
> it, stagflation... 

> Now think about what happens if all of a sudden ARAMCO walked off the 
> job, FOREVER...

Simple, the unemployed oil workers (most of whom roamed from field to
field as the work shifted) in places like Texas, Oklahoma, and even
Alaska could be recruited in a matter of days, and then shipped over to
the Gulf area, along with some national guard units to run the
kitchens, laundries etc until we could recruit civilians to fill the
jobs.

During the embargo, much of the trouble was caused by the way things
were done here, *long* before the supplies got scarce. And in any case,
there you had people who would have actively opposed any attempt by us
to take over the fields.

>> people). All it'd take would be enough people to run the equipment,
>> and provide support services for them. And I daresay that the
>> equipment would *quickly* get upgraded to reduce the number of
>> people needed.
>
> Not quickly at all.  All of a sudden tool manufacturing firms are 
> going to be asked to produce several times as much of Product Y than 
> they're used to producing:  Result: Inflation and backlogged 
> orders... 

Why? Where do you think the equipment comes from *now*? The upgrades
would be subject to limits on how fast we can produce things, but in
most cases these upgrades would consist of things like conveyer belts
and bulldozers (standard sand & gravel pit gear) replacing shovels and
human bucket chains. The specialized stuff takes longer, but is done on
a "special order" basis anyway. 

> So they hire more workers and are now competing for what 
> would now be an extremely scarce labor supply.  More inflation.  Yes, 
> this problem would be corrected in the log run.  But for the short term, 
> again, economic dislocation.

Since we *only* need to run the mines, ports, and some support
structures, that labor shortage isn't likely to be as bad as you think.
Also, much of the labor needed will be *exactly* the type where folks
in the US have become "technologically unemployed".

>> That's what it's going to be like on a typical colony world. They'll
>> have folks mining the minerals, and R&R facilities (aka "mining
>> town") nearby. They'll be linked to the rest of the planet by some
>> sort of transport net, be it sub-orbital shuttles, or seagoing
>> ships.
>
> Doubtful.  This is an oversimplification.  First of all, consider the
> type of people who are going to colonize a typical world:  Ambitious,
> greedy nobles who see an opportunity to squeeze miners into a little
> kish, and impressed labor, because the average factory worker, or
> teacher, or grav cargo carrier from 2 parsecs over isn't going to
> give up his comfortable, safe job for a nasty, brutish short life in
> a mine on the latest frontier world...

Better study history. The Belgian Congo was handled the way you
describe, but not much else.

As for teachers, factory workers, etc, consider everything from the
1849 Gold Rush, to the Alaska Oil Boom. The guy at the local McDonalds
is quite likely to be *very* willing to go to this frontier planet a
couple parsecs away because he can do the exact same kind of work and
get paid ten times what he's earning now. Sure, the accomodations are
kinda crude, and there's not much to do on your days off. But with
labor being scarce, rates are high and folks get treated halfway
decently. They'll have to work *hard*, but they'll get paid for it.

> Things are going to be as low tech as possible for a while, possibly 
> decades or centuries, simply because support services are going to be 
> mainly focused on providing the basics for the mines and the miners.  

Try again. You'll have low tech were low tech both does the job, and
doesn't use too many people. You'll have high tech where it is *needed*
and where it lets you use fewer people. Support costs for *people* are
one of your major expenses. So given a choice between a "low tech"
method that uses 20 people, and a high tech one that costs 10 times as
much, but only uses 2 people, the high tech approach is what's likely
to happen, unless spare parts are a problem (they usually aren't, it's
repairmen that are a problem!).

> Orbital cities, shuttles, etc, aren't going to happen until the 
> colony is much more mature than it would be at the beginning.

Orbital cities, yes and no. An orbital station and a small satellitie
network are *always* a good investment. It's a lot easier to have ships
unload stuff in orbit than on the ground. On the ground it usually
needs more protection! In orbit, all it needs is a tether and a "sun
screen". You shuttle it down when needed.

Satellites give you weather info (*damned* important), as well as cheap
communications and a way to keep an eye out for smugglers (if that's a
problem). They also provide a search and rescue network. Even if you
don't care about the people the *equipment* is worth money.

You *need* shuttles, both to handle the ground to space traffic (orbit
to orbit haulers are a *lot* cheaper!) and for some of the point to
point traffic *on* the planet. The colony *will* spread out, as the
best areas for living and producing food are unlikely to be near the
major mineral deposits. So you need to be able to move people and light
cargo *quickly* (emergency equipment breakdowns, medical emergencies,
etc) which requires craft that might as well be shuttles. You also need
slower "buses" and "trucks" for hauling large amounts of people or cargo.

Given the various possibilities, I'm pretty sure that a
"semi-ballistic" shuttle is probably one of the better options
available under the vehicle rules, if you want something capable of
making "intercontinental" trips quickly but cheaply. And any such
vehicle is so close to being ground to orbit capable, that at even year
0 tech levels, you might as well do so. 

The options for "slow cargo" require more thought.

>> Most of the people will be in the agricultural and industrial areas.
>> And the population required for a given tech level will be a lot
>> lower than you seem to think.
>
> Quite the opposite.  Most of them are going to be in support 
> services.  That means running the company store, manning the starport 
> facilities, running the bars, restaurants, brothels, etc. that would 
> undoubtedly appear in mining towns.

By "areas" I meant *regions*. To restate it: most of the people are
going to be *located* in the regions where most of the food is produced
and where industrial production takes place. 

Most of these people will be working "support" jobs. But their
*physical location* will be near where the production jobs are, whether
it be food production, raw material extraction, or some sort of light
industry.

> Most vital materials to the colony are initially going to be
> imported, not manufactured locally.  This would come later.  Since
> the actual tech level to which such a new colony could manufacture
> would be a lot lower than its needs, you're going to see a lot of
> importing...

Don't confuse "industry" and "heavy industry".

It's unlikely that they will be producing spaceships or grav vehicles.
Or even stoves. But they *will* be producing housing materials locally
quite early. And the same goes for food. They'll import a lot of stuff
people are "used to", but local foods will be exploited, simply because
it's *cheaper*. Hunting/fishing at first, as well as gathering any
"wild" vegetation that is edible. 

Stuff like concrete and lumber will get produced locally from very
early on, and more advanced building materials will follow. The
decision here is between paying shipping (and living with the snafus
involved) and importing some "simple" equipment to produce the
materials locally.

Lumber and cement win this one hands down. A sawmill is easy to
transport, easy to set up, and much of it can be operated at any of a
variety of tech levels. Blades need to be imported (at least at first),
but even so, they last a fair while (and when they wear out, the high
quality steel scrap is worth good money!)

Concrete basicly requires a few rather common kinds of rock (common on
any planet that humans would *want* to live on) some rock crushing
gear, and the like. You need the rock crusher for gravel, and for
mining, so it's pretty much a given. You also need an "oven" to roast
the cement in. Again, pretty simple, and if you are starting low tech,
you can build it *very* low tech.

Plastics and structural steel are a somewhat different matter. You'll
need more gear hauled in to start up, but not as much as you might
think. 

There are a *lot* of "high tech" items that can be produced using
mostly *low* tech, with only a few "high tech" items. For example, you
can produce modern steel alloys with a steel plant out of the 1800s,
just by adding some modern instruments to monitor some steps of the
process. 

> In short, your model ignores economics, a foundation of the Traveller 
> universe...

No. I'm aware of economics. Including the fact that in a colony type
situation, *people* are going to be the expensive resource. "Slave
labor" doesn't cut it, especially if you need then to do anything
"technical". 

If you are going to use the "transportee" colony model (like parts of
Australia), then you either commit to shipping in *lots* of food, or
you make self-sufficincy for staple food products your number one
priority. And that *includes* being able to maintain whatever "tech" is
involved without large, steady imports of parts/fuel/whatever.

> However, your model would probably be workable for an established 
> mining colony, it just isn't going to start out that way...

A colony that isn't "established" is an unstable situation. And any
*imtelligent* planner is going to try to minimize the instabilities by
trying to find local alternatives to imports.

I still maintain that if the infrastructure is present, then your TL <=
PL rule is wrong. Once the population hits the millions, the potential
is there to support *any* tech level.And there will be a tech level
(higher than ours :-) at which the number of people required to
*maintain* the tech level starts going *down*. 

Mind you, if you knock out huge chunks of the technological
infrastructure, then the situation is quite different, because you may
be in the situation of having to rebuild something from the ground up. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Sunday, 15 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 414

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Expert Systems
         2. Re: TL maintanence
         3. Re: How does your game taste?
         4. RE: 76 Patrons (Very Long)
         5. RE: How does your game taste?
         6. Re: 76 Patrons (Very Long)
         7. Re: Dudley Do-Right
         8. Re: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs
         9. Lawful, upright characters
        10. Re: Bwaps
        11. Two things
        12. Re: sustainable technologie

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 04:13:32 PST
Subject: Re: Expert Systems

In mail you write:

> Something that just occured to me.. in the early days of the Rebellion, how
> many battles came to a screeching halt when the fire control programs
> announced that that was an Imperial tank/ship/whatever, and couldn't be
> engaged... (Imagining the face of some Admiral as the computer tells him
> that he's in violation of Navy reg KS3558.635-3(y))

Already happened, except in reverse. Falklands war. One of the several
reasons that the HMS Sheffield got plastered (and that it was so easy
to plaster the Admiral Belgrano) was that the *defensive* systems
looked at the incoming missile and basicly said "Oh, that's one of
ours, ignore it...")

Needless to say more modern gear is supposed to be designed with the
assumption that you might just be fighting your "allies" some day.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 03:47:13 PST
Subject: Re: TL maintanence

In mail you write:

> One thing to consider is that if there is no incentive to increase TL,
> chances are that it will decline.  Above a certain level (TL 3 or 4?), I
> doubt status quo would be the case.  
>
> It may sound cynical, but I suspect one significant justification for a
> dependance of TL on pop is the fact that a lot of tech advancement is
> the result of competition between political entities, particularly
> military competition.
>
> Another thought: a 'doomsday' attitude could result in a loss of hope
> and drive necessary to maintain TL.  Alternatively, the masses could go
> into tech decline while some tech knowledge is maintained, possibly
> without comprehension, by some special group similar to the middle ages
> monestaries.

Actually, this involves a *major* problem with the traveller TL system.
It doesn't distiunguish between knowledge and infrastructure. 

For example, if I could speak the language and had local money, I could
build any number of "high tech" items in cultures as low tech as
Assyria or Egypt.

In fact, nothing from before the 1850s is too "high tech" to build
essentially from scratch. That's when we start getting precision
machining, which can be a pre-requisite for many items. And as far as
"hardware" type technology goes, you get up to WWII before you run into
stuff that'd be a bitch to build even as a "one off". 

Harry Harrison's story "The Ethical Engineer" (published in book form
as "Deathworld 2" goes into a lot of this.

But as an example, if I got stranded on this Egyptian/Roman level
planet during a survey mission, I could build a *radio* to signal for
help and do so from native materials. I could also produce some nasty
chemical weapons to convince the local warlord that I was someone he
wanted to keep... :-)

So we actually need to seperate "knowledge" (theory) and "tooling".

As I said, the tooling required for *anything* before the mid 19th
century was stuff that a knowledgeable person could build from scratch
with some help. Much later than that and you start to get into the
"tools to build the tools to build..." problem.

As an example, building a lathe or milling machine is *easy* IF you
already have one! If you only have one left after the war, then you'd
better treat it *very* gently and make the creation of parts to build a
second one your primary concern!

So there are two ways to lose tech levels. Lose the equipment operators
(and the books!) or lose enough equipment that you not only can't
replace it easily, but you may not be able to build the "layers" of
pre-requisite tools in time to stave off problems.

History of tech has been an interest of mine for a long time. And so
has the "problem" of how to get from "nothing" to a given item.

What with folks trying to colonize, I rather expect that by Year 0 (if
not sooner!) there will exist "books" (more likely *rugged* AI based
portable libraries) that will essentially let you tell them what tools
you have, and what item/tool you need, and they'll offer you the choice
of the "fastest" way to get there, or of taking a but longer but
producing more generalized tools along the way, so that next time you
need something you'll have a broader "industrial base".

These may well be the basis of the "Imperial standard technology
packets" that folks have talked about from time to time.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 08:09:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

On Sat, 14 Sep 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

> 1)  What "style" or "flavor" of Traveller play do you participate in?
> 
> a) FREE-WHEELING: A campaign where PCs wander about in search of adventure, 
> often setting their own goals and objectives in spite of various rumors and 
> encounters by the referee.

My style is like this, except for the "in spite of various rumors and 
encounters by the referee" part.  The initial adventure is usually 
something pre-planned to some extent - I decide the what the hook will 
be, and map out a few highlights of the plot before-hand.  Once the 
characters muster out and "find" eachother somehow, something will happen 
that sets them on the course to that first adventure.  

Thereafter, I try to provide what the players want.  I determine this by 
listening to what they say, paying attention to what their characters say 
and do, etc.  Usually, that first adventure provides hooks all by itself 
(in a sense) that allow the players to go in the direction they want to go.

It's difficult to explain, really.  I guess you could say it is a 
cooperative free-wheeling style.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: daniel_t@gate.net (Daniel T.)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 09:22:33 -0400
Subject: RE: 76 Patrons (Very Long)

Earlier, I posted an offer to collect Patron encounters from TML and
publish them on a web page. If you have any patrons you would like me to
add, then send them to me <daniel_t@gate.net> and I will be happy to add
them to the page.

The page will be available at the end of the month.



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 08:26:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: How does your game taste?

On Sat, 14 Sep 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

> I am sad to say that my best player is going off to the Marines.  This guy 
> would just roll up a PC and he would start playing.  He needed no 
> introduction, he wouldn't be distracted by reading rulebooks, magazines, trips 
> to the kitchen, he wouldn't talk incessantly about other games/books/movies 
> during play.  He would pay attention to what was going on, so he would 
> actually pick up on any idiosynchrasies thrown in as clues...  <sigh>
> 
> If only there was a college course for teaching good role players.

Role-playing /is/ a skill, and it takes time to develop it, like any 
skill.  I didn't fully understand that until I moved here to IL and tried 
to get my wife involved in RPGs.  She was interested in doing so, but 
unsure of her ability.  I figured it would be no problem.  I knew I could 
get her interested in a story line, and if I could do that, the rest 
would flow easily.

After teaching her a bit about the game, she rolled up a character and we 
started our first session.  I used my usual free-wheeling style...and it 
was a disaster.

Free-wheeling role-play requires that the players act as mini-GMs in a 
sense.  They have to make a /lot/ of decisions, and give the referee 
hints as much as the referee gives them hints.  

New players, I've discovered, aren't ready for that.  The pre-planned 
adventures are like training wheels.  And they need those training 
wheels.  You can wean them off as they gain skill, but it takes time, 
experience, and a lot of coaching.

The first few adventures were very frustrating for both Carole and I, 
because I was expecting her to play like my old players back in CA, who 
had years and years of experience.  Once I realized what I was doing 
wrong, thouhg, things got better.

Eventually, Carole and I played several pre-planned adventures in CT, and 
the last we did was pretty darned fun for both of us.  It's been about a 
year since we've played (we've been busy with other things), but we're 
both excited about playing T4 once a few more supplements come out.  She 
still needs for me to pre-plan things, but she is coming along and has 
her own thoughts on where the adventure should go from time to time.  

Perhaps by the time the next Gen-Con comes around she will be confident 
enough to play in a couple games there.  Until then, we'll keep the 
training wheels on to one degree or another.

Oh, and one more caveat: I realize that not everyone wants to spend the 
time to become that skilled of a role-player.  There are definite levels 
of role-play, and different people are comfortable with different 
levels.  

Yet, in the back of my mind, the notion remains that if everyone could 
experience the thrill of the highest level of role-play, they wouldn't be 
satisfied with the lesser levels.
 

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 06:50:16 PST
Subject: Re: 76 Patrons (Very Long)

In mail you write:

> This is Copyright Boyd Schneider 1996, free for your use but not for 
> publication without my written permission. 
> --------------------------------------------------
> "Evidence"  A patron encounter for one player.

<snip>

> 1-2     The attorney's client is the defendant, and the charges brought

<snip>

> 4       As above, except the attorney's client is the plaintiff, and the

<snip>

> 5       The attourney represents the plaintiff, and the defendant is a member

<snip>

> 6       As 1 above, but the defendant is a leader of the local mafia and

Do you have something against 3?

:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 07:02:27 PST
Subject: Re: Dudley Do-Right

In mail you write:

> One of the retainers is a Rogue trying to go straight. Unfortunately,
> she is what one can call a Trouble Magnet. No matter how hard she
> tries to stay out of hack, trouble inevitably finds her. She _never_,
> and I mean NEVER starts the Trouble, but she has such a degree of
> Unluck that her roguish skills never want for practice.

Let me guess. She's either named Kei or Yuri.... 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 06:58:48 PST
Subject: Re: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs

In mail you write:

> Amongst lots of other, rather, self-important sounding words <grin>, Stuart 
> L. 
> Dollar said:
>
>         >Gamma World
>
> Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah!

Which of the *three* different editions are you so in love with? And
how do you feel about Metamorphosis: Alpha?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 11:18:57 -0400
Subject: Lawful, upright characters

For the amusement of the list, I offer up this little gem from 
yesterday's session.  Please note that it was only the _third_ game of 
the campaign, no less!

Background:  Players have been hired on as crew of a 200mt Frontier 
Trader (an older vessel recently upgraded to Jump-3, TL 12 with cramped 
accommodations being run by a non-spacer bank executive concerned with 
getting it from Strouden/Lunion to Regina as quickly as possible for 
delivery to new owner while cutting costs to the bone, largely in the 
form of minimal salaries).

Every single one of the characters save one promptly decide that the 
best way to come out of this ahead is to steal the vessel and head for 
the Darrian Confederation, and hence to a life of piracy and mayhem.  
All save one.  This one, upstanding Imperial Navy retiree, an engineer 
with two decades' experience, multiple decoration, and a personality 
best described as 'sensible' is obviously not going to go along.

While plotting just how to convert him, two of the other characters 
(pilot and navigator, no less) convince him to overpower the 1G thrust 
plates by one hundred per cent in order to make a flashy (? at 2G who's 
going to be impressed, anyways?) burn into Lanth.  Upon doing so, this 
exceptionally competent fellow promptly botches in the worst possible 
way.  Not wishing to doom them or anything, but feeling obliged to make 
their lives miserable as a result of this engineering abuse, I ruled 
that a power converter that feeds the thrusters has burned out.  No 
thrust, 210 minutes from burning up in Lanth's atmosphere, and an 
inventive technician.  No problem.  I figured they's borrow/modify a 
part or two from the jump drive (it _must_ have power converters, no 
matter if they're of a different sort. . .).

I must say, I have never seen so many rolls failed quite so badly.  In 
the end, the ship burns up in the atmosphere with the engineer still 
trying to right things while everyone else evacuated, to be picked up 
by a passing patrol cruiser.

Our game's resident statistician calculated the odds of such a thing 
happening as being about 6/1000.

[sigh]

You just cannot keep players out of trouble. . .

------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 01:20:07 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: Bwaps

Dear Folks -

Loren posted a question about the location of the Lentuli subsector a while
ago. Here is our discussion since:

>From me:
>> I haven't completed a link to it yet, but the Bwaps page is at:
>>        http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw/libdata/B/bwaps.htm
>>
>>They are said to be an "Intelligent minor race native to Marhaban
> ( Lentuli/Empty Quarter 0426)".
>>
>> Does this help in the quest?

Loren's reply:
>Not especially. Can you tell me if the web page gives anything that is not
>contained in the JTAS #11 article?
>
>  Loren Wiseman
>         GDW Emeritus

The specific location details are *not* in the JTAS article! (the article
just says that Bwaps come from "the Lentuli subsector", and gives a vague
direction). This may mean that I took the Bwaps details from the original
HIWG disks I received from Clay Bush (3 years ago now!). These are probably
the same ones available at Peter Berghold's site.

Peter, can you confirm this? If the location data IS there, where did it
come from?

BTW, the link to Bwaps *IS* now available from my _Traveller Library Data_
page. You can get to it from my link page at:
        http://pcug.org.au/~davidjw

I have now put "A" and "B" library data on-site. Sorry: cross-references are
yet to be added to the pages, and I haven't yet converted the many index
pages (eg. Bestiary, Archdukes, The Emperor's List, etc), but it's a start!
________________________________________________________________________
Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson)                         davidjw@pcug.org.au
http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"


------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 14:39:00 GMT 
Subject: Two things

Joe Walsh

> This brings up a question I've wondered ever since I discovered how
> difficult some CT items were to find, and how easy it was to find other
> things:  What was the typical _first_ print run of a new product?


Anywhere from 10K to 50K. Average new run was about 20K. The theory
was to sell enough in the initial glut to distributors th leave you
with no more than one year's inventory (keep stuff more than one year
=  pay taxes on it in two separate fiscal years = _bad_ thing).

On another topic:

The discussion of the Aslan dewclaw gives me the opportunity to
correct something that went astray years ago. Bill Keith and I
intended for the dewclaw to be on the _end_ of the thumb, not the
palm, and Bill's original drawings showed this. Unfortunately, one of
his drawings was less than clear on the subject, and it was _this_
drawing that was used by Steve Venters when he did the art for the
Aslan module (Murphy strikes again). DGP took their inspiration from
the Venters art, and the error was propogated.

It is a minor point, but I'm trying to get IG to go back to what I feel
is the correct configuration, the one Bill and I intended. (BTW, with
the single exception of the incorrect dewclaw, Vilardi's Aslan comes
the closest to what Bill and I had in mind.) Just imagine Alsan having
a switchblade instead of the last bone in their thumb.

Loren Wiseman
      GDW Emeritus
       class of 1973-1996


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 08:39:20 -0800
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie

On 15 Sep 96 at 2:37, Leonard Erickson spewed:

You said, and this was pretty much the premise of your whole 
discussion...

> >> If aliens were to abduct all the people in the third world, we'd
> >> have production restored rather quickly (and likely with *fewer*

> There aren't a lot of "critical" materials that are being produced
> using shaft mining. Open pit mines are a lot easier to teach people
> to work. And *much* easier to automate.

Yes, but many of these operations aren't automated right now.  And 
machine tool companies aren't going to be able to build the equipment 
overnight.  You're talking about a tenfold increase in orders for 
most of these companies...

And you've totally ignored your own premise.  We are talking about 
mining (both pit & shaft), oil, specialty agriculture (cocoa, coffee, 
bananas, and others just don't grow all that well in Nebraska).  And 
if you're going to tell me that open pit copper mining, and working 
on an oil derrick don't require some specialized skills, I'd like to 
introduce you to a few of my uncles and cousins, who do exactly that 
sort of thing for a living...

> > And if you think the pizza guy from down the street is going to
> > make an adequate miner without training you're joking...chances
> > are you're going to have to do a tough sell just to convince him
> > even to do it.  
> 
> Two comments:
> 1. Draft them (admittedly a last resort)

Uh, last I knew, this was a democracy, and you can't draft people 
into civilian jobs.  Now admittedly, you can raise wages for such 
jobs to the point where it would be more attractive, and this is what 
would happen long term, but you don't draft people to work for 
Anaconda...

> 2. check the unemployment rate for members of the United Mine
> Workers.
>    There are a lot of *trained* people available who aren't working.

I will concede this point.  But remember a lot of the UMW folks have 
other jobs at this point...  Most of them have been out of work long 
enough that they'd have a hard time finding their union cards...

> > Now think about what happens if all of a sudden ARAMCO walked off
> > the job, FOREVER...
> 
> Simple, the unemployed oil workers (most of whom roamed from field
> to field as the work shifted) in places like Texas, Oklahoma, and
> even Alaska could be recruited in a matter of days, and then shipped
> over to the Gulf area, along with some national guard units to run
> the kitchens, laundries etc until we could recruit civilians to fill
> the jobs.

Weeks, or months maybe, not days...

I'm sure the governor of your state is going to love shipping the 
National Guard to Slobovia to peel potatoes...  Get real.  Total 
ignorance of economics here.  The governor of North Carolina is going 
to especially love it right now cleaning up after a hurricane...

> During the embargo, much of the trouble was caused by the way things
> were done here, *long* before the supplies got scarce. And in any
> case, there you had people who would have actively opposed any
> attempt by us to take over the fields.

Yeah, well the same WOULD be said if we lost access to large amounts 
of any other imported raw material.  And incidentally, the US is MORE 
dependent on foreign oil now than it was then, so we really didn't 
learn anything, did we???

> >> people). All it'd take would be enough people to run the
> >> equipment, and provide support services for them. And I daresay
> >> that the equipment would *quickly* get upgraded to reduce the
> >> number of people needed.
> >
> > Not quickly at all.  All of a sudden tool manufacturing firms are
> > going to be asked to produce several times as much of Product Y
> > than they're used to producing:  Result: Inflation and backlogged
> > orders... 
> 
> Why? Where do you think the equipment comes from *now*? The upgrades
> would be subject to limits on how fast we can produce things, but in
> most cases these upgrades would consist of things like conveyer
> belts and bulldozers (standard sand & gravel pit gear) replacing
> shovels and human bucket chains. The specialized stuff takes longer,
> but is done on a "special order" basis anyway. 

Yeah, but you're asking plants to produce several times as much stuff 
as they would now...  Even if you run three shifts (which you aren't 
now), you're looking at hiring a lot of people, and would be directly 
competing for the same blue collar guys who are being "drafted" to 
work in the mines...

> Since we *only* need to run the mines, ports, and some support
> structures, that labor shortage isn't likely to be as bad as you
> think. Also, much of the labor needed will be *exactly* the type
> where folks in the US have become "technologically unemployed".

What are you smoking????  Man I want to live in your world...  There 
are about 260 million people in the US.  There are 5 BILLION people 
in the rest of the world.  Unemployment is currently running at 4.5%. 
 There aren't that many people who are free to ship off to take ALL 
those jobs in the rest of the world...at least not without having to 
be replaced at home...  And incidentally, you're going to need MORE 
of them to do the same jobs that are done over here, due to lack of 
automation, support services...

> >> That's what it's going to be like on a typical colony world.
> >> They'll have folks mining the minerals, and R&R facilities (aka
> >> "mining town") nearby. They'll be linked to the rest of the
> >> planet by some sort of transport net, be it sub-orbital shuttles,
> >> or seagoing ships.
> >
> > Doubtful.  This is an oversimplification.  First of all, consider
> > the type of people who are going to colonize a typical world: 
> > Ambitious, greedy nobles who see an opportunity to squeeze miners
> > into a little kish, and impressed labor, because the average
> > factory worker, or teacher, or grav cargo carrier from 2 parsecs
> > over isn't going to give up his comfortable, safe job for a nasty,
> > brutish short life in a mine on the latest frontier world...
> 
> Better study history. The Belgian Congo was handled the way you
> describe, but not much else.

Yeah, I remember all those Model T's they used to crank out in the 
Congo...and there are more Belgians in the Congo than Belgium too...  
Yes, a lot of people went to the Congo, etc. but nowhere near as many as 
there were natives in most of those places...

> 1849 Gold Rush, to the Alaska Oil Boom. The guy at the local
> McDonalds is quite likely to be *very* willing to go to this
> frontier planet a couple parsecs away because he can do the exact
> same kind of work and get paid ten times what he's earning now.

Wow, Leonard we agree on something...  They're going to be paying 
these guys 10 times as much, and guess what, inflation...increased 
raw materials costs, layoffs as the result of lagging sales...

> Try again. You'll have low tech were low tech both does the job, and
> doesn't use too many people. You'll have high tech where it is

First of all, I sald they'd be importing technology, if you'd taken 
the time to read the rest of my response, but they aren't going to 
have the manpower to devote to manufacturing it locally, at least not 
early on.  They are going to have to import it.

> You *need* shuttles, both to handle the ground to space traffic
> (orbit to orbit haulers are a *lot* cheaper!) and for some of the

Utter nonsense.  We've been mining and shipping ore for 5000 years.  
All you need is the mines, and a flat space of rock for ships to land 
on...and some sort of vehicle/animal power to carry it from the mines 
to the ships.  Heck, even low tech, you could simplify things.  Just 
put the starport next to the mine...

> point to point traffic *on* the planet. The colony *will* spread
> out, as the best areas for living and producing food are unlikely to
> be near the major mineral deposits. So you need to be able to move
> people and light cargo *quickly* (emergency equipment breakdowns,
> medical emergencies, etc) which requires craft that might as well be
> shuttles. You also need slower "buses" and "trucks" for hauling
> large amounts of people or cargo.

Yes, but remember, the Imperial model doesn't work AT ALL like this.  
There are definitely low tech mining colonies, and for the most part, 
you don't need weather satellites, shuttles, et al.  Especially if 
your mining operations are concentrated in 1 small corner of the 
world, which is most likely going to be what happens in the 
beginning...

> Given the various possibilities, I'm pretty sure that a
> The options for "slow cargo" require more thought.

Irrelevant to the main argument...

> By "areas" I meant *regions*. To restate it: most of the people are
> going to be *located* in the regions where most of the food is
> produced and where industrial production takes place. 

On a new mining colony, there aren't going to be a whole lot of areas 
where there is agriculture or industrial production.  Take a look at 
mining towns in the US.  Most of them are mines, homes for the 
workers, and restaurants, markets, bars, etc. to service the 
miners...that's about all...  

I know what I'm speaking about here.  I have a pair of uncles who 
live (and work) in mining towns to this day...

> Most of these people will be working "support" jobs. But their

I will grant you this, as long as you broadly define the definition 
of  "support"

> > Most vital materials to the colony are initially going to be
> > imported, not manufactured locally.  This would come later.  Since
> > the actual tech level to which such a new colony could manufacture
> > would be a lot lower than its needs, you're going to see a lot of
> > importing...
> 
> Don't confuse "industry" and "heavy industry".

I'm not...as a matter of fact, I was clarifying it, if anything...

> It's unlikely that they will be producing spaceships or grav
> vehicles. Or even stoves. But they *will* be producing housing
> materials locally quite early. And the same goes for food. They'll
> import a lot of stuff people are "used to", but local foods will be
> exploited, simply because it's *cheaper*. Hunting/fishing at first,
> as well as gathering any "wild" vegetation that is edible. 

If there are housing materials and food to produce...  Not too much lumber on 
them vacuum worlds...  You could use the local rock, but you'd still 
need materials to hold it together...would the planet have lime?  As 
for agriculture, I would agree, but again, not as much as you think 
early on in either sector and maybe none at all if the world doesn't 
have them...

> Stuff like concrete and lumber will get produced locally from very
> early on, and more advanced building materials will follow. The
> decision here is between paying shipping (and living with the snafus
> involved) and importing some "simple" equipment to produce the
> materials locally.

See above argument...

> Lumber and cement win this one hands down. A sawmill is easy to
> transport, easy to set up, and much of it can be operated at any of

Again, if there are any to produce...

> Concrete basicly requires a few rather common kinds of rock (common
> on any planet that humans would *want* to live on) some rock
> crushing gear, and the like. You need the rock crusher for gravel,
> and for mining, so it's pretty much a given. You also need an "oven"
> to roast the cement in. Again, pretty simple, and if you are
> starting low tech, you can build it *very* low tech.

There are a lot of worlds in the Traveller universe that humans 
wouldn't *want* to live on...

> Plastics and structural steel are a somewhat different matter.
> You'll need more gear hauled in to start up, but not as much as you
> might think. 

Wait a minute.  This is a mining colony...the analogy is a mining 
town, not Detroit...  They aren't going to be able to produce 
everything early on, their main focus is to mine those rare elements 
for the developed industrial world which is Jump-2 away, not to build 
their own industry...

> There are a *lot* of "high tech" items that can be produced using
> mostly *low* tech, with only a few "high tech" items. For example,
> you can produce modern steel alloys with a steel plant out of the
> 1800s, just by adding some modern instruments to monitor some steps
> of the process. 

Irrelevant...

> No. I'm aware of economics. Including the fact that in a colony type
> situation, *people* are going to be the expensive resource. "Slave
> labor" doesn't cut it, especially if you need then to do anything
> "technical". 

No, you're argument is full of economic holes.  I do agree with you 
on people being the expensive resource.  But remember, a while ago 
you were telling me we were going to be drafting miners...kind of 
going against your own argument...

> If you are going to use the "transportee" colony model (like parts
> of Australia), then you either commit to shipping in *lots* of food,
> or you make self-sufficincy for staple food products your number one
> priority. And that *includes* being able to maintain whatever "tech"
> is involved without large, steady imports of parts/fuel/whatever.

This would depend on the hospitality of the world.  The reason I 
suggest it would be lower tech is because it would be cheaper to 
sustain the technology locally, without increasing imports beyond 
already high levels...

> > However, your model would probably be workable for an established
> > mining colony, it just isn't going to start out that way...
> 
> A colony that isn't "established" is an unstable situation. And any

Perhaps, I had a poor choice of words.  Should have used mature, 
instead of established...  By mature, I mean, most of the original 
mines are played out, new ones have been established, infrastructure 
is thoroughly established, manufacturing and other industries have 
been established for some time, population is relatively stable, 
etc...

> I still maintain that if the infrastructure is present, then your TL
> <= PL rule is wrong. Once the population hits the millions, the
> potential is there to support *any* tech level.And there will be a
> tech level (higher than ours :-) at which the number of people
> required to *maintain* the tech level starts going *down*. 

Not any tech level.  Some maybe.  It is not a coincidence that the 
industrial revolution occurred only after the population was closing 
in on 2 billion people.  

> Mind you, if you knock out huge chunks of the technological
> infrastructure, then the situation is quite different, because you
> may be in the situation of having to rebuild something from the
> ground up. 

True...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #414
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Traveller-digest         Sunday, 15 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 415

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: T4 availability
         2. Re: Lawful, upright characters
         3. RE: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs
         4. RE: 76 Patrons (Very Long)
         5. Re: Lawful, upright characters
         6. Re: Bring Back Michael Vilardi
         7. Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #412
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #412
        10. Re: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)
        11. RE: Bring Back Michael Vilardi 
        12. RE: Two things 
        13. Re: Dudley Do-Right
        14. Re: How does your game taste?
        15. RE: How does your game taste?
        16. Re: Expert Systems
        17. Re: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)
        18. Re: How does your game taste?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 17:49:49 +0200
Subject: Re: T4 availability

Matt Lewis wrote:
> 
> Simon John Harding wrote:
> 
> > Imperium Games would not be
> > doing good business if they have almost depleted a first run at this
> > stage, when neither (apparently) the UK nor Australasia have even seen
> > the product.
> 
> The UK HAS seen the product, BITS were selling it at Euro GenCon, as were
> Caliver Books and Leisure Games. I assume the latter two are now selling
> it mail order.
> 
> -------------------------------------
> Matt Lewis mailto:lewis@griffin.co.uk
> http://www.griffin.co.uk/users/lewis/

Even we in Norway has recieved a small shiping of paperbacks.
I got one over three weeks ago. And its seems that they are selling 
like hot cookies. :-)

- -- 
Tommy Grav 
Email: tommyg@ifi.uio.no
WWW-Page: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html
"Sooner or later the worst set of circumstances are bound to occur."

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 11:59:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Lawful, upright characters

A very good example of when a referee should NOT necessarily listen to the
dice.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 05:31:13 UT
Subject: RE: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs

Shadow asked:

>Which of the *three* different editions are you so in love with? And
>how do you feel about Metamorphosis: Alpha?
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

Remember the color box illustration with the three(?) guys in jumpsuits 
outside ruins of a city?  If memory serves, one guy is holding a laser rifle, 
and one is holding a hand-held device of some kind.  

I guess that was the first edition.  I was in sixth grade and the only other 
RPG I played was (of course) D&D.  In addition to a friend from down the 
street, I actually played Gamma World with a MY DAD (who was ref)!  My dad was 
a traditional wargamer before, but he influenced my role playing style ever 
since.  He designed different levels of maps, and had a hand-drawn 
illustration for nearly every encounter.  By the time we eventually quit 
playing, my friend and I both had notebooks with a pictorial "storyline" of 
our adventure.  We could flip through the folder and discuss what we did at 
each scene.  

I would look at Metamorphosis Alpha many times at Toys By Roy (remember Toy 
Stores selling RPGs?)  But I never bought it, probably because I was buying 
lots of D&D products at the time.

Of course, it was around the time that we quit playing Gamma World, when I 
noticed a guy in my orchestra class with three plain black books, and a very 
compelling radio message from Free Trader Beowulf on the back...

:-)>

				---Boyd
				aka Spider

BTW, I was wondering if anyone else ever role-played with their Dad (or Mom)?

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 05:06:05 UT
Subject: RE: 76 Patrons (Very Long)

In a previous message Leonard Erickson says:

>Do you have something against 3?
>
>:-)
>

Awww, leave me alone, Shadow!

					---Boyd 
					(aka Spider)

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 11:59:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Lawful, upright characters

A very good example of when a referee should NOT necessarily listen to the
dice.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:28:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Bring Back Michael Vilardi

John Macek wrote:
> 
>Well, while were on the subject of artists, and Aslan, there's none 
>better than Michael Vilardi.  If you've never seen his work in DGP's 
>Solomoni & Aslan you're really missing some top notch stuff.

Was he the guy who signed his stuff with that odd symbol?

    ____
   /   _| 
  /_/\_\

That's pretty much what it looked like.  He was great.  Really awsome 
drawings.  I'd look though my stuff but it's all in boxes as I prepare to 
move...  8)

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 13:31:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)

On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:

> A very good example of when a referee should NOT necessarily listen to the
> dice.

Hmmm. Speaking of lawful, upright characters: I /really/ want to respond 
to this, but I also fear it could easily degenerate into a flame war.  
Since I'm not feeling extremely lawful and upgright today (grin), I'll go 
ahead and speak my peace. :)

What you say is true:  referees should not be contrained to the results 
dictated by dice throws.  However, I've learned that going with the dice 
throws, even when the consequence is death for a player character or 
major NPC, can provide wonderful role-playing experiences.

I'm not advocating letting the dice rule the game.  I'm just saying that 
throwing out every dice throw that leads to major negative consequences 
for the PCs is not a perfect policy.  Some great experiences can be 
missed that way.

Example:  One PC, Scardin, was enamored of a housekeeper (named "Babe," 
after a schoolmate of mine).  They met when she cleaned his room the 
first time.  She was new to the job, and sort of barged in without 
checking whether the room was empty.  Babe was very apologetic, so Scardin 
let her go about her tasks while he did his own "housekeeping" - cleaning 
his guns, etc.  
	She got into trouble with the vacuum cleaner, sucking up some 
stray bits of equipment that had been left on the floor.  When the 
machine screetched its complaint at these foreign objects, she panicked 
and got herself into more of a mess.  Scardin helped clear up the 
problem, more from wanting this interruption to be over with than out of 
genuine friendliness.  
	Once she finished vacuuming, she went to clean the bathroom.  As 
Scardin finished up his own task, he noticed a particularly noxius smell 
drifting into the room.  Babe had mixed some cleaning products that were
not meant to be mixed, and had passed out in the bathroom.
	To make a long story short, Scardin found he liked this 
accident-prone woman, and they began seeing eachother socially.  After 
time, they became lovers.
	That was, of course, just a sub-plot.  The main story involved 
Scardin's enforcement activities for one of the local organized crime 
outfits.  I decided it was time to "turn the screw" a little tighter on 
Scardin's life, so I had a rival gang attempt a "hit" on him.  I didn't 
want the character to die...I just wanted him to be shaken up and wonder 
which rival syndicate was after him.
	So, one night while Scardin was out "at work," I had a hit man 
make a rather messy attempt on him.  The hit man stopped by Scardin's 
room, opened the door, crept into the darkened room, and let go with a 
shotgun - he emptied it into the bed.
	Now, I figured this would be effective.  Scardin comes home, 
finds his bed turned into little pieces of cloth and fluff, and thinks 
about how easily that could have been the end of his life.
	Unfortunately, Scardin left the house for his next job at the end 
of one session, and the hit happened at the beginning of the next.  I 
didn't take proper notes, so I forgot that, earlier the same evening the 
hit occurred, he had gone out with Babe.  She'd gotten a bit drunk, and 
he'd left her at his place, passed out on his bed.
	The player brought up this fact when Scardin came home to the 
ruined bed.  "Where's Babe?"  
	I thought...oh, God!  Invent something really lame: "She was in 
the bathroom at the time," or go with what should have really 
happened: she was out cold, and never even woke up.  All that is left of 
her body is a bunch of bloody pieces.
	I went with what made sense, even though it filled me with 
dread.  The relationship had been developing very nicely, and it was a 
fun sub-plot to explore.  Now it was over.
	And you know what?  That was one of the most effective pieces of 
plotting I ever did - even though I never intended to.  It was a defining 
moment of Scardin's life, and changed the game-play dramatically, 
affecting it in ways too numerous to go into now.
	For the player and I, it was a role-playing session we will 
never forget.  This scenario was played a dozen years ago, yet 
the feeling and memories are as vivid as if it had really happened.  Not 
many role-playing experiences have that sort of impact.

Now, this wasn't a case of listening to the dice.  However, if a 
character attempts something very risky, and the dice tell you the worst 
happens, think about it before you make your decision.  Or, if logic tells 
you something terrible is at least very likely to happen as a consequence 
of some other action, perhaps it will be best to let that thing happen.  If 
not overdone, you can lead yourself and your players down some new paths 
that can be very memorable indeed.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 19:40 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #412

In-Reply-To: <9609150155.AA07455@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Subject: How does your game taste?

1)  What "style" or "flavor" of Traveller play do you participate in?

a) FREE-WHEELING: A campaign where PCs wander about in search of 
adventure, often setting their own goals and objectives in spite of 
various rumors and encounters by the referee.

b) STORY-TELLING:  A campaign where PCs participate in a story, 
pretty-much narrated/controlled by the referee.

c) ONE SHOT ADVENTURES:  A series of individual adventures, where PCs 
may or may not be the same every time, but otherwise unrelated to one 
another as they would be in a campaign.

d) OTHER:  Another style that doesn't fit in the above. >>

Basically, I think my campaign falls into (a), although I slot scenarios 
(sometimes published, sometimes home-made) into it. Most of the time, 
they're *supposed* to be doing a scenario, but they usually end up 
wandering off and leaving the plot behind. About 5 years ago, the PCs 
were recruited by SolSec, which added a bit of structure to the 
campaign.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 19:40 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #412

In-Reply-To: <9609150155.AA07455@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Subject: How does your game taste?

1)  What "style" or "flavor" of Traveller play do you participate in?

a) FREE-WHEELING: A campaign where PCs wander about in search of 
adventure, often setting their own goals and objectives in spite of 
various rumors and encounters by the referee.

b) STORY-TELLING:  A campaign where PCs participate in a story, 
pretty-much narrated/controlled by the referee.

c) ONE SHOT ADVENTURES:  A series of individual adventures, where PCs 
may or may not be the same every time, but otherwise unrelated to one 
another as they would be in a campaign.

d) OTHER:  Another style that doesn't fit in the above. >>

Basically, I think my campaign falls into (a), although I slot scenarios 
(sometimes published, sometimes home-made) into it. Most of the time, 
they're *supposed* to be doing a scenario, but they usually end up 
wandering off and leaving the plot behind. About 5 years ago, the PCs 
were recruited by SolSec, which added a bit of structure to the 
campaign.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 14:59:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)

I won't quote Joe's long response, but I will point out that almost all
the game books I have (Traveller and many many others ) state somewhere in
them that the Ref *should* ignore dice rolls when it is in the best
interests of the campaign. I don't throw away every disagreeable roll, not
by a long shot, but I have and will.

Nuff said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 15:24:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Bring Back Michael Vilardi 

In Reply to Your Message of Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10: 28:37 PDT
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 15:24:05 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: John Macek wrote:
: > 
: >Well, while were on the subject of artists, and Aslan, there's none 
: >better than Michael Vilardi.  If you've never seen his work in DGP's 
: >Solomoni & Aslan you're really missing some top notch stuff.
: 
: Was he the guy who signed his stuff with that odd symbol?
: 
:     ____
:    /   _| 
:   /_/\_\
: 
: That's pretty much what it looked like.  He was great.  Really awsome 
: drawings.  I'd look though my stuff but it's all in boxes as I prepare to 
: move...  8)

That wasn't Michael Vilardi, that was Rob Caswell.  I would honestly
have to say that Mike, Rob, Blair, and Dave (Deitrich) did much to help
shape my image of the Traveller universe.  There was something great
about their art.

Just so you know, you can catch Vilardi's work all over the Star Wars
RPG.  Rob Caswell and Dave Deitrich freelance, but their work can also
be seen in various SW RPG products as well.

Now, I'm not busting on Foss or Elmore, I happen to like what they've
done as well (just not as much as the aforementioned).

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 15:29:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Two things 

In Reply to Your Message of Sun, 15 Sep 1996 14: 39:00 GMT
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 15:29:37 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: The discussion of the Aslan dewclaw gives me the opportunity to
: correct something that went astray years ago. Bill Keith and I
: intended for the dewclaw to be on the _end_ of the thumb, not the
: palm, and Bill's original drawings showed this. Unfortunately, one of
: his drawings was less than clear on the subject, and it was _this_
: drawing that was used by Steve Venters when he did the art for the
: Aslan module (Murphy strikes again). DGP took their inspiration from
: the Venters art, and the error was propogated.

Just to play devil's advocate.  Why was DGP allowed to propogate this
error?  I thought that GDW had some form of editorial control over what
they released.  Also, we did the Bill Keith keep on drawing them that
way all through TD 17?  Why didn't you change it back in TNE?

Not like it really matters.  In the grand scheme of things, this is
very, very minor.  I'm just curious.

: It is a minor point, but I'm trying to get IG to go back to what I feel
: is the correct configuration, the one Bill and I intended. (BTW, with
: the single exception of the incorrect dewclaw, Vilardi's Aslan comes
: the closest to what Bill and I had in mind.) Just imagine Alsan having
: a switchblade instead of the last bone in their thumb.

Does this mean that we may be start seeing the Wiseman name on Traveller
products once again?  8)

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 12:04:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Dudley Do-Right

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > One of the retainers is a Rogue trying to go straight. Unfortunately,
> > she is what one can call a Trouble Magnet. No matter how hard she
> > tries to stay out of hack, trouble inevitably finds her. She _never_,
> > and I mean NEVER starts the Trouble, but she has such a degree of
> > Unluck that her roguish skills never want for practice.
> 
> Let me guess. She's either named Kei or Yuri....

Nope, Lenord. Her name is Gwen. Nice guess, though.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 09:23:31 -0700
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

At 08:09 AM 9/15/96 -0500, you wrote:

> 1)  What "style" or "flavor" of Traveller play do you participate in?
> 
> a) FREE-WHEELING: A campaign where PCs wander about in search of adventure, 
> often setting their own goals and objectives in spite of various rumors and 
> encounters by the referee.

This is the only way I have ever been able to run Traveller.  I will go a 
step further and say that I have great difficulty running any game with a 
critical mass of less than three people.  This is true of any game I run, 
but seems to be especially true when I run Traveller.  I much prefer the 
players to have their own goals and look on my job as creating the 
atmosphere and frontier feel of the game.  I have never been able to 
tolerate the story telling type of game as a player, and view it as too 
constraining for them.  If a game master wants to write a book, as I have 
often found from game masters running story telling games, then they can 
leave me out of it.  Just my humble opinion.

Regards,

Matthew Mactyre
mmactyre@concentric.net
http://www.cris.com/~mmactyre/
PGP public key available on request


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 15:28:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: How does your game taste?

On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, Bill Rutherford wrote:
> 
> Funny - My most enjoyable players were USMC - you don't suppose there's
> something about being trained to jump off the ramps of LVTPs that makes for
> good roleplayers?... - Bill

  Probably just good old fashioned discipline.

  A friend of mine who joined the Canadian Army Engineers a few months ago
tells me his buddies are useless at gaming - they all generate "super
marine" killing machines and get off on blowing the entire adventure up.
It's turned him off gaming entirely until he gets regular leaves with his
old gaming buddies.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 15:36:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Expert Systems

On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Already happened, except in reverse. Falklands war. One of the several
> reasons that the HMS Sheffield got plastered (and that it was so easy
> to plaster the Admiral Belgrano) was that the *defensive* systems
> looked at the incoming missile and basicly said "Oh, that's one of
> ours, ignore it...")

  Not true. In fact, the Sheffield did not detect the Exocet at all until
just before impact. It isn't really known for sure _why_ they didn't
detect it, but another ship in the line *did* see it, but for some reason
did not warn the Sheffield. A combination of factors (ie, one big
clusterfuck) resulted in the loss of the Sheffield - IFF wasn't one of
them.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:54:16 GMT
Subject: Re: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)

On Sun, 15 Sep 1996 14:59:54 -0400 (EDT), Tom Ellis wrote:

> I won't quote Joe's long response, but I will point out that almost all
> the game books I have (Traveller and many many others ) state somewhere in
> them that the Ref *should* ignore dice rolls when it is in the best
> interests of the campaign. I don't throw away every disagreeable roll, not
> by a long shot, but I have and will.

Exactly.  The trick then becomes "don't let your player's begin to think
that you (as a referee) would ever let BLANK happen to one of their
players, no matter what the die roll."  This can lead to players repeatedly
"pushing the envelope" as they try to get away with dangerous events--
knowing that you will not let anything bad happen to them.



------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:54:27 GMT
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

On Sun, 15 Sep 1996 08:26:13 -0500 (CDT), Joe Walsh wrote:

> Role-playing /is/ a skill, and it takes time to develop it, like any 
> skill.  I didn't fully understand that until I moved here to IL and tried...

This is an important thing for a referee to remember.  Since different
players have different skill levels when it comes to role-playing, care
must be given that the skilled players do not dominate the game due to
their familiarity with both the system and role-playing in general.  The
reverse is rarely the case, although some seasoned gamers might grow a bit
irritated at the lack of participation and subsequent hand-holding required
of a new player (kind of like how we all feel when stuck behind a student
driver).  Role-playing is a group experience and there will always be
different levels of skill since the game does not specifically demand it
(contrary to professional sports or driving the Indy circuit, where the
goal is to be *better* than your opponents).
 
> After teaching her a bit about the game, she rolled up a character and we 
> started our first session.  I used my usual free-wheeling style...and it 
> was a disaster.

Introducing a player that has never role-played before and watching his/her
response to the situation can be priceless.  The event can become even
greater when that player decides to play again next session.  The hardest
part I fond is explaining to new players how the campaign world is
different than our own REAL LIFE.  Referees keep a lot of info stored in
their brains about how their world operates; sometimes one forgets what the
players have been told and what they have not.

> Free-wheeling role-play requires that the players act as mini-GMs in a 
> sense.  They have to make a /lot/ of decisions, and give the referee 
> hints as much as the referee gives them hints.  

Campaigns I have run (and have participated in) generally revolve around a
l-o-n-g campaign thread which can become dominant at some points in the
campaign while nearly disappearing at other times.  During *these* times,
players have been known to start serious relationships with NPCs (and even
other PCs), open businesses, join therapy groups, tour, make new friends &
contacts, and even play other games (within the role-playing game itself,
complete with their own rules).

Our current Shadowrun campaign began with a shootout inside a Kwiky Mart
(would you like a Squishy?) where a gang of thugs tried to get protection
money from the store owner.  Our seven PCs met for the first time during
that gunfight, and we later became known as the KMS (Kwiky Mart Seven).  A
lot of things have happened since then (you know-- save the city a few
times and such) but we are still known as the KMS.  Each PC is involved in
events that don't necessarily involve the rest of the players.  We even
have our own franchise to act as our clubhouse (something for the "bad
guys" to blow up, of course).

> New players, I've discovered, aren't ready for that.  The pre-planned 
> adventures are like training wheels.  And they need those training 
> wheels.  You can wean them off as they gain skill, but it takes time, 
> experience, and a lot of coaching.

The trick is knowing when to wean them off... too soon and they might
become disappointed in their character's performance; too late and they
might not be ready to finally suffer the consequences when their character
makes a critical OOPS!

> The first few adventures were very frustrating for both Carole and I, 
> because I was expecting her to play like my old players back in CA, who 
> had years and years of experience.  Once I realized what I was doing 
> wrong, thouhg, things got better.

Joe Walsh's RPG School (with franchises opening up soon near you)!

> Eventually, Carole and I played several pre-planned adventures in CT, and 
> the last we did was pretty darned fun for both of us.  It's been about a 
> year since we've played (we've been busy with other things), but we're 
> both excited about playing T4 once a few more supplements come out.  She 
> still needs for me to pre-plan things, but she is coming along and has 
> her own thoughts on where the adventure should go from time to time.  

One thing I find that helps out a lot is for the players to create a
written background for their characters (one page minimum).  Traveller
covers a lot of this during character creation but only covers things on a
year-by-year basis (and pretty much ignores a character's pre Collage or
University years).  The more in depth the background is, the better.  It's
like the difference between a movie *with* character developement and those
with little or none.  It might even be possible for the referee to subtly
interweave his/her campaign plot into the character's background without
them even knowing it!

> Perhaps by the time the next Gen-Con comes around she will be confident 
> enough to play in a couple games there.  Until then, we'll keep the 
> training wheels on to one degree or another.

I just had a vision of Carole on a *teeny* pink bicycle and wearing a white
safety helmet-- her tongue firmly in cheek as she tries to concentrate over
Joe's cheers of encouragement.  Right behind her is Joe, running along side
with one hand on the back of the banana seat as he watches her progress,
the little multi-coloured streamers on the handle bars fluttering in the
wind as she approaches 0.1c  :-)

> Oh, and one more caveat: I realize that not everyone wants to spend the 
> time to become that skilled of a role-player.  There are definite levels 
> of role-play, and different people are comfortable with different 
> levels.  

And as long as a referee doesn't favour one player over another because of
their role-playing skills (or lack thereof), everyone should be happy.  No
one should feel left out just because their role-playing skills aren't as
strong as everyone else's.  The object of the experience is for everyone to
have fun... not determine who is the best role-player.

> Yet, in the back of my mind, the notion remains that if everyone could 
> experience the thrill of the highest level of role-play, they wouldn't be 
> satisfied with the lesser levels.

True.


James W. Lindsay    Vancouver, British Columbia

"Ack! Icky plptht TAZ grunga yeek... PLPTHT!!!"
                             -Tasmanian Devil

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #415
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Traveller-digest         Sunday, 15 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 416

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Two things
         2. Re: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs
         3. Re: RE: Re: Deck Plans
         4. Re: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)
         5. RE: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)
         6. Re: How does your game taste?
         7. Freelance Traveller - REAL SOON NOW
         8. Core subsector.
         9. Re: sustainable technologie (answers)
        10. Re: sustainable technologie (questions)
        11. RE: How does your game taste?
        12. RE: Listening to Dice
        13. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #415
        14. sector viewer
        15. Role-Playing with Mom & Dad/Metamorphosis Alpha
        16. About the core subsector.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 13:05:35 -0800
Subject: Re: Two things

On 15 Sep 96 at 14:39, gdw.support@genie.com spewed:

> On another topic:
> 
> The discussion of the Aslan dewclaw gives me the opportunity to
> correct something that went astray years ago. Bill Keith and I
> intended for the dewclaw to be on the _end_ of the thumb, not the
> palm, and Bill's original drawings showed this. Unfortunately, one
> of his drawings was less than clear on the subject, and it was
> _this_ drawing that was used by Steve Venters when he did the art
> for the Aslan module (Murphy strikes again). DGP took their
> inspiration from the Venters art, and the error was propogated.

Egad, 10 years of "canon" invalidated, by the revelation of a 
misinterpretation of a semi-ambiguous drawing...

Is nothing sacred???  ;-P

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 13:05:35 -0800
Subject: Re: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs

On 15 Sep 96 at 6:58, Leonard Erickson spewed:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Amongst lots of other, rather, self-important sounding words
> > <grin>, Stuart L. Dollar said:

:-)

> >         >Gamma World

> Which of the *three* different editions are you so in love with? And
> how do you feel about Metamorphosis: Alpha?

Actually, I played Gamma World 1 time.  1st edition as I recall...  
FWIW, I mainly recounted it just to show that there wasn't a whole 
lot out there when Traveller was 1st released...

Don't recall Metamorphosis: Alpha, but its been about 17-18 years 
since I played GW...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: chriscox@ix.netcom.com (Chris Cox)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 13:36:28 -0700
Subject: Re: RE: Re: Deck Plans

Boyd,

    I you want you could alway send your deck plan sketches my way and when
I get a chance I'll try to create some deck plan similar to the plans for
the Landers on my Traveller page (the Draconis Cluster,
"http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm"). I would like it though if you
would design ship with a level of detail similar to those Lewis Roberts
posted not too long ago.  Those designs have T4 and FF&S stats along with a
nice description of the ship.

Chris Cox
Falcon watching on Wall Street in New York City
(chriscox@ix.netcom.com)
The Draconis Cluster Traveller page
(http://users.aol.com/yanbeck/trav.htm)


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 15:39:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)

On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:

> I won't quote Joe's long response, but I will point out that almost all
> the game books I have (Traveller and many many others ) state somewhere in
> them that the Ref *should* ignore dice rolls when it is in the best
> interests of the campaign. I don't throw away every disagreeable roll, not
> by a long shot, but I have and will.
> 
> Nuff said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I don't think we will have to.  As I said in my long response, don't 
throw away every die roll...just consider it before you do so.
Which is exactly what you said you do.
So, there is no disagreement. :)


- -joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 10:00:12 UT
Subject: RE: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)

>> I won't quote Joe's long response, but I will point out that almost all
>> the game books I have (Traveller and many many others ) state >somewhere in
>> them that the Ref *should* ignore dice rolls when it is in the best
>> interests of the campaign. I don't throw away every disagreeable roll, >not
>> by a long shot, but I have and will.
>
>Exactly.  The trick then becomes "don't let your player's begin to think
>that you (as a referee) would ever let BLANK happen to one of their
>players, no matter what the die roll."  This can lead to players repeatedly
>"pushing the envelope" as they try to get away with dangerous events--
>knowing that you will not let anything bad happen to them.
>
This is one of the things I've been giving alot of thought to recently.  
Because I mostly play with either one or two players, I have avoided allowing 
a scenario to culminate in the death of one of the PCs (thinking that I will 
allow the PC to die if the player does something REALLY stupid).  I've been 
thinking that I will abandon that practice, becuase it does set up a bad 
precedent, ie. if you "preserved" my PC last time, why not this time, or every 
time?

If death of PCs occur more often, then it won't be so bad.  But allowing a 
player to get "attached" to his PC believing death to be impossible, is a bad 
way to go.  After a player loses a few PCs, on the other hand, it will just 
become part of the game.  But I agree with someone in a previous email who 
said that he prefers games with more than 3 players.  With that many or more 
players involved, individual deaths become less "significant" and the actual 
adventure itself becomes what is important.  I have heard of a game in which 
PCs were killed so often that the players all finished the adventure with 
different PCs than they started; except one -- each PC dropping out and 
"handing off" the ongoing storyline to another slightly different group.  The 
moral being that the "story" or adventure is what is important -- and not any 
pasrticular PC or PCs.

This runs counter to what I am used to, since my campaigns tend to center 
around the characters rather than any particular outcome.  But it is food for 
thought.

					---Boyd



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 17:22:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, James Lindsay wrote:

> Introducing a player that has never role-played before and watching his/her
> response to the situation can be priceless.  The event can become even
> greater when that player decides to play again next session.  The hardest
> part I fond is explaining to new players how the campaign world is
> different than our own REAL LIFE.  

Yikes!  You're kidding, right?  Or am I misunderstanding you?  You seem 
to be saying that new players tend not to know the difference between 
fantasy an reality.  I must be sloooooooow today....that can't be right. 


> Campaigns I have run (and have participated in) generally revolve around a
> l-o-n-g campaign thread which can become dominant at some points in the
> campaign while nearly disappearing at other times.  During *these* times,
> players have been known to start serious relationships with NPCs (and even
> other PCs), open businesses, join therapy groups, tour, make new friends &
> contacts, and even play other games (within the role-playing game itself,
> complete with their own rules).

Neat. :)  I've never done the game-within-a-game, but it is a neat idea.

And the idea of "down time" is interesting as well.  The most down time 
my players' characters get is typically no more than a week or so.  Not 
long enough to open a business or take a tour. :)
Perhaps I should give that a try sometime.


> Joe Walsh's RPG School (with franchises opening up soon near you)!

ROFL.


> One thing I find that helps out a lot is for the players to create a
> written background for their characters (one page minimum).  Traveller
> covers a lot of this during character creation but only covers things on a
> year-by-year basis (and pretty much ignores a character's pre Collage or
> University years).  The more in depth the background is, the better.  It's
> like the difference between a movie *with* character developement and those
> with little or none.  It might even be possible for the referee to subtly
> interweave his/her campaign plot into the character's background without
> them even knowing it!

This worked with my old group, and it is generally a good idea.  But, 
some new players have trouble doing even this much. :(  They need lots o' 
hand-holding.


> I just had a vision of Carole on a *teeny* pink bicycle and wearing a white
> safety helmet-- her tongue firmly in cheek as she tries to concentrate over
> Joe's cheers of encouragement.  Right behind her is Joe, running along side
> with one hand on the back of the banana seat as he watches her progress,
> the little multi-coloured streamers on the handle bars fluttering in the
> wind as she approaches 0.1c  :-)

:)  This even funnier when you consider the fact that Carole is 15 years 
my senior. ;)


> And as long as a referee doesn't favour one player over another because of
> their role-playing skills (or lack thereof), everyone should be happy.  No
> one should feel left out just because their role-playing skills aren't as
> strong as everyone else's.  The object of the experience is for everyone to
> have fun... not determine who is the best role-player.

Yup.  Just like with any other management task.  That's a dry way of 
putting it, I know, but the similarity is there.  You should treat 
everyone equally.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 18:45:00 -0500
Subject: Freelance Traveller - REAL SOON NOW

  It's now just a matter of beating some articles into shape.
  The Provider has approved; Freelance Traveller is set to go,
  pending the articles.

  Now, that doesn't mean that I'm entirely happy with the
  _quantity_ of what I've got; I must say that the quality isn't
  bad, not at all - but I expected that, given the people (TML
  members all) who wrote them...

  It's NOT too late!  I would be grateful for additional
  articles to publish in Freelance Traveller.

  For now, let's keep them all raw text; in the not-too-distant
  future, there will be a way to handle documents from popular
  word processors, and other things.  If there are pictures
  associated with the article, such that the article really
  doesn't work without them, write to me, and we'll work
  something out.  Really.

  Send your articles to jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com - not to
  the address in my .sig.  The address in my .sig gets over 100
  messages per day from lots of sources (including the TML), and
  it would be very easy to loose an article in there.

  Also, watch for my announcement of the publication; that will
  have the URL to point your browser at.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ The mugger gave me *his* wallet when he saw my .357


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:06:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Core subsector.

Hi.  Has anyone transcribed the Core Subsector data from T4 into into
ASCII yet?  I'm specifically looking for something formatted for Jim
Vassilakos's sector viewer/generator (The Galactican's Guide), but other
ASCII formats would also make my life easier.  Please reply to me
personally as I haven't had time lately to read through the Trav Digests. 

I would also like to ask about sources of canon regarding this subsector
and the sector it is contained in. Was teh sector ever mapped anywhere?

Thanks,
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 20:13:37 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie (answers)

Hy folks,

	this mail sums up several answer about my theory that a
	tech level needs an equal or higher population code to
	sustain autonomous (without trade). That they need
	n% of their maintaince from imports, where n is the
	tl-pc diff, because of increasing diversity per tech
	level.

Moin Earl Wajenberg,

> I think this was "death by thought-experiment" -- just "subtracting"
> the people from consideration would be all that was required.

	I just hope so. Even if Leonard sounds different ;-(
	We are here speaking about thougth experiments, I'm
	just making formulars for colapse and trade effects.

Moin Stuart L. Dollar,

> Not quickly, slowly.  First you'd have a lot of people in this 
> country who wound up being economically dislocated (Newspeak for 
> unemployed) because Acme Co. was no longer getting its regular 
> shipments of Part X, whose main component was hypothetesium, which is 
> mined mainly in Lower Slobovia...causing the ENTIRE assembly line to 
> shut down.

	My model just now has this direction, as an addition to
	the branches in the World Tamers Handbook, my model includes
	services (producing nothing material, get payed twice)
	and wellfare (producing nothing get payed half).

	Population relocation always touches this wellfare sector.

Moin Leonard Erickson,

> Now consider that you can kill *everyone* in China, the CIS, India, and
> large portions of Africa, Latin America, and it would have *no* effect
> on our tech level, because none of those places contributes anything
> *necessary* for maintaining our tech level.

	We are at tech level 8 and have a population code of
	9 and a modifier of 5 so you can slay 98% of our 
	population if you want to stay at tl 8 ;-(

	But killing 98% of the world would decrease our standart
	of living dramastically. As the standart of living is
	reduced by the terms of trade in the so called 3rd world
	countrys we can increase our standart of living by the
	same amount.

> A colony will start out at a given tech level, and only drop to very
> low tech levels when they get *forced* to. And if it's a true *colony*
> as opposed to some sort of outpost, at least the basics for becoming
> self-sufficient are going to be a priority.

	A colony is intendet to have trade (to export raw material,
	and import industrials, while sustaining at agricultural
	and construction) I'm currently working on comparing my
	theory to real data (btw what do you thing would be the
	rate of exchange for $ to Cr) to have imports exports
	look rigth.

> Heck, what tech level does South Africa maintain (a good examnple
> since they *export* raw material, that much of the rest of the world
> has to import). 
	
	They maintain a high tech level but they dont sustain at
	this techlevel. They have to import/export !

> Try again. You'll have low tech were low tech both does the job, and
> doesn't use too many people. You'll have high tech where it is *needed*
> and where it lets you use fewer people. Support costs for *people* are
> one of your major expenses. So given a choice between a "low tech"
> method that uses 20 people, and a high tech one that costs 10 times as
> much, but only uses 2 people, the high tech approach is what's likely
> to happen, unless spare parts are a problem (they usually aren't, it's
> repairmen that are a problem!).

	In my theory you need to import (tl-pc)/10-pm/100 spare parts.

> Orbital cities, yes and no. An orbital station and a small satellitie
> network are *always* a good investment. It's a lot easier to have ships
> unload stuff in orbit than on the ground. On the ground it usually
> needs more protection! In orbit, all it needs is a tether and a "sun
> screen". You shuttle it down when needed.

	Do you know how many money maintaining a starport compared
	to a downport mean. A colony would start with an class D
	downport.

> I still maintain that if the infrastructure is present, then your TL <=
> PL rule is wrong. Once the population hits the millions, the potential
> is there to support *any* tech level.And there will be a tech level
> (higher than ours :-) at which the number of people required to
> *maintain* the tech level starts going *down*. 

	IMHO its an illusion that computers reduce labor, they
	increase them. I think that my asumptions (that diversity
	increased by tech level) are rigth for tl<9. Its a question
	of cannon if there is a tech level where the diversity
	decreases.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 21:20:16 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie (questions)

Hy Folks,

	I was talking about my theories with an economy scientist
	yesterday, and for building a better model than the one
	in would tamers handbook several questions arise :

	- do you think there will be a techlevel where the
	  diversity of things to maintain this techlevel
	  decreases ? (e.g. you need less people to sustain
	  tl 15 than to sustain tl 14)
	- what would be the rate of exchange between US$
	  and the imperial credit.
	- would you agree to the following credit per
	  displacement table :

		Agricultural   :  3000
		Ligth Industry : 16000
		Heavy Industry : 12000
		Constructions  :  8000
		Raw Material   :  4000

	  I always felt wrong that a ton of food cost as much
	  as a ton computers, and used the "C64 Elite Game"
	  trade tables for mastering, for my formulars I need
	  some more general tables, and want to ask for cannon.

	  E.G a 30000 people tl 12 planet wants to import :

	  	agricultural   :  10.8 kCr 	   3.5
	  	ligth industry :   2.5 mCr       156
	  	heavy industry :   1.2 mCr       100
	  	const.industry : 490.8 kCr        62
	  	raw materials  : 389.5 kCr        97
	  	                             -------
						 318 disp tons

	I hope they monthly frigther comes, because 1.4 mCr
	of ligth indutrial items where orderd from the industry
	to maintain their equipment.

By Michael

PS : I hav'nt finished my ideas yet and the numbers change daily.
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 16:57:19 -0800
Subject: RE: How does your game taste?

1)  What "style" or "flavor" of Traveller play do you participate in? =
answer--FREE-WHEELING/STORYLINE

One of our three refs plays a closer storyline type game, one a truly =
(perhaps too) free-wheeling game, and the other designs next weeks story =
based upon this weeks reactions.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:13:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: Listening to Dice

On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

> This is one of the things I've been giving alot of thought to recently.  
> Because I mostly play with either one or two players, I have avoided allowing 
> a scenario to culminate in the death of one of the PCs (thinking that I will 
> allow the PC to die if the player does something REALLY stupid).  I've been 
> thinking that I will abandon that practice, becuase it does set up a bad 
> precedent, ie. if you "preserved" my PC last time, why not this time, or every 
> time?

You are so right, Boyd.  Early on in my gaming experience (back in the days 
when I thought D&D was the only role-playing game worth spending time 
on[G]), I sort of forced our group to deal with this issue.  

Since we were all around 12 or so, none of us was mature enough to deal 
with the death of a character.  Fortunately, neither I nor the other 
person acting as DM ever killed a PC.  At worst, it was a "...and you 
barely survive" situation.

Well, one session my magic-user character was being threatened by a big 
baddie in a dungeon.  He was taunting my character, telling me how he was 
going to kill me, etc. etc.  My character was completely helpless in the 
situation.

I reacted completely immaturely to that, of course. :)  I "broke the 
fourth wall" to a degree and had my m/u talking directly to the DM, 
saying essentially, "You aren't going to kill me, because you CAN'T kill 
a PC.  So just make this guy shut up and let me go!"

Unfortunately, the DM didn't react any better than I did.  He backed 
down, and followed our unspoken agreement that no PC would be killed.  

The exchange could have caused our group to mature, but the DM and I 
didn't handle it right. :(  It wasn't until a couple of years later, with 
the death of Babe, that we finally changed that policy.


> If death of PCs occur more often, then it won't be so bad.  But allowing a 
> player to get "attached" to his PC believing death to be impossible, is a bad 
> way to go.  After a player loses a few PCs, on the other hand, it will just 
> become part of the game.  

It's a fine line to walk.  You want the players to be "attached" to their 
characters, to a degree.  You want them to care about what happens to 
their characters.  Heck, you want them to /be/ their characters during 
the play session, just as a good actor becomes his character.

But, as you point out, you don't want them to become so attached to their 
character that they won't accept its death. 

Our group called it "maturity," but that probably isn't the right term.


> But I agree with someone in a previous email who 
> said that he prefers games with more than 3 players.  With that many or more 
> players involved, individual deaths become less "significant" and the actual 
> adventure itself becomes what is important.  I have heard of a game in which 

For us, the /experience/ became the most important aspect.  The feelings, 
thoughts, and images that the characters and situations evoked were of 
paramount importance.  That opened up new avenues for us.


> PCs were killed so often that the players all finished the adventure with 
> different PCs than they started; except one -- each PC dropping out and 
> "handing off" the ongoing storyline to another slightly different group.  The 
> moral being that the "story" or adventure is what is important -- and not any 
> pasrticular PC or PCs.

I've never taken it to this extreme.  PC deaths were rare, but they 
happened.  Make them too often, and they have no emotional impact.  Since 
we were most interested in experiences, this was not a route that was 
explored.  It just wouldn't have been effective /for us/.

> This runs counter to what I am used to, since my campaigns tend to center 
> around the characters rather than any particular outcome.  But it is food for 
> thought.

You're right, it is.  Something to think about.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 21:11:23 -0400
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #415

>A very good example of when a referee should NOT necessarily listen to the
>dice.

I disagree on this one.  (Of course I do, I was the ref!)  Sometimes 
you _have_ to let the dice take their course; otherwise players fall 
into a safety-net mentality, which also leads to abuse.  If a player 
does something really stupid and is not punished for it, he will either 
repeat mistakes or develop a 'what does it matter it'll be OK anyways' 
mentality.

If the event in question would have damaged the campaign I wouldn't 
have allowed it.  Instead, it simply takes things in a radical new 
direction while denying the players one or two potentially easy (if 
also sleazy) methods of getting ahead of the game. . .

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 02:05:25 +0000 ()
Subject: sector viewer

Hy Folks,

	for people in europe I've placed the 35 DGP sectors
	together withh E'Henrys Java Sector Viewer on my home
	page :

	http://deceased.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin/traveller

	This would make access for people in europe (exspecialy
	in german DFN) to second survey data much faster.

	BTW does anybody have the stellar data for Reaver's Deep.
	E Henrys script will break on these sectors.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 18:29:05 -0700
Subject: Role-Playing with Mom & Dad/Metamorphosis Alpha

On Sun, 15 Sep 96, "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com> wrote

>Shadow asked:

>>Which of the *three* different editions are you so in love with? And
>>how do you feel about Metamorphosis: Alpha?

Loved it!  Greatest "bad" game in history, especially the way Craig and I
played it.

>BTW, I was wondering if anyone else ever role-played with their Dad (or >Mom)?

Ummm..  I had to make some hard Evasion rolls to go to Rocky Horror a few
times, not to mention many, many Fast Talk tasks...  does that count?


+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 21:29:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: About the core subsector.

Hi all.  

I have a problem with the map of the core subsector in T4.  Actually I
have several problems with it, including a number of typos, but the most
important difficulty is that the map does not seem to fit canon. 
According to my trusty font of Traveller dogma, the Imperial
Encyclopedia, the Sylean Federation had been around several centuries
before Cleon declared the 3rd Imperium into existence, and it was supposed
to comprise a whole sector at that time.  So why are there "unexplored"
planets on the map?  Is this a map from before the Syleans took over the
rest of the sector?  In that case, it is not from year 0, as some seem to
have assumed (including myself) but from at least -500.  Thoughts? 

Charles

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #416
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Traveller-digest         Monday, 16 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 417

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: Aslan stuff
         2. Gm looking for players . . .
         3. Re: About the core subsector.
         4. RPSC: Postponed
         5. RE: Listening to Dice
         6. PC Deaths
         7. Aslan dewclaw
         8. Re: 210 minutes in a steel games room.
         9. Re: PC Deaths
        10. RE: Role-Playing with Mom & Dad/Metamorphosis Alpha
        11. RE: Listening to Dice
        12. RE: PC Deaths
        13. Re: Nobles per Goffin
        14. Dudley Do-Right
        15. Traveller Suite
        16. legal PCs
        17. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #415
        18. Re: PC Deaths
        19. Re: Gotta find a new devil , Bob

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 01:38:23 GMT
Subject: RE: Aslan stuff

On Sep 13, 1996 08:44:58, '"Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>' wrote: 
 
>Do the Aslan manufacture their tems to compensate for this?  I figure
combat  
>is a pretty stressful time, so wouldn't their firearms have a  
>hole/receptical/other for their dewclaw?  And I imagine the controls on
their  
>ships would have to have something like it as well ("What?  We lost
another  
>ship?  Grrrr, I wonder what could be happening?") 
 
 
I remember one discussion where the Aslan used the 
dewclaw for a safety on their weapons. 
 
They couldn't fire *unless* the dewclaw was pressing 
into a notch on the weapon. 
 
It wasn't published anywhere, just a concept people  
were bouncing around. 
 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

From: "Scott E. Spieker" <scspieker@ncweb.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 21:51:10 -0400
Subject: Gm looking for players . . .

I am lookng for players to play in a traveller campaign.  I libe 
in the greater Cleveland area, and I would have no trouble travelling to 
play my favorite RPG ( or my form of it.)  If anyone is interested 
please E-mail me with a name, Voice number, and any other applicable 
information regarding location(s) and what not.

		I can be reached at: (216)-255-3914  :)

				Thank you,
				Scott Spieker (Pronounced "speaker")
				scspieker@ncweb.com

------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 20:02:40 -0800
Subject: Re: About the core subsector.

>I have a problem with the map of the core subsector in T4.  Actually I
>have several problems with it, including a number of typos, but the most
>important difficulty is that the map does not seem to fit canon. 
>According to my trusty font of Traveller dogma, the Imperial
>Encyclopedia, the Sylean Federation had been around several centuries
>before Cleon declared the 3rd Imperium into existence, and it was supposed
>to comprise a whole sector at that time.  So why are there "unexplored"
>planets on the map?  Is this a map from before the Syleans took over the
>rest of the sector?  In that case, it is not from year 0, as some seem to
>have assumed (including myself) but from at least -500.  Thoughts? 

I think of it as this.  The Syleans may have occupied the sector for a
while, but who's to say they were interested in planets without people.
Now, I don't have T4 to look at the map, but if you think about it, Humans
were on this planet for a lot longer than 500 years, with the ability to
explore the whole Earth, but didn't do it.  

Perhaps fear and superstitions built up over the Long Night about certain
places even may have played into this, or maybe the Syleans wer eonly
interested in planets that would prove economically viable.  Like any
government would they support a scouting expedition that wouldn't prove to
be rewarding?  The answer is no.

Thanks,

Peter

>Charles
>
><0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
><0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
><0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
><0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
><0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>
>
>

    /-\                                                           /-\
    |$| Peter John Miller ---> Oakville, Ontario, Canada          |$|
    |$|----------------------------------|------------------------|$|
    |$| Sorry, my homepage on Dragonfire.net is down right now but|$|
    |$| watch the .sig to see when it starts up again, and visit! |$|
    |$|----------------------------------|------------------------|$|
    |$| YoungMerlin - best grapics prices|"What a time to be alive|$|
    |$| on the Web!!!!!!!!               | - Dave Goldin, NASA    |$|
    (_)                                                           (_) 


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 22:35:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RPSC: Postponed

I'm sorry to have to say this, but the release of RPSC is being postponed 
to sometime later this week.  All of us involved with the project want it 
to be the best it can be the first time you see it, and that isn't where 
it is at right now.  

My wife Carole needs to spend more time on the formatting and layout.  
Wildstar and I need to get his amazingly great ship damage effects 
system in there (this was a last-minute addition).  Since we all have 
other responsibilities (little things like keeping our employers 
happy[G]), these items will have to wait.

As I said, I plan to have it all done at some point this week.  When that 
will be depends on how much time we're able to devote to it.  

I'll keep you all updated as things progress.

With regrets,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: daniel_t@gate.net (Daniel T.)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 23:44:14 -0400
Subject: RE: Listening to Dice

I guess most of you would hate playing in one of my games... I was GMing
Universe with 3 players. The mission had to do with finding something on a
space ship (something like a cruse ship), it had to be found before the
ship got to its destination (about 3 weeks). At one point early in the game
I rolled a "Major Accident". In Universe a major accident is a life
threatening incident that bears no relationship to the plot. The player
gets a saving throw (something around 20%), if he fails he takes LOTS of
damage.

The rules said this accident was to occur sometime in the next 8 game
hours... Well earlier in the game, the randomly chosen character, who was
to receive the accident result, was being pestered by a small child on one
of the observation decks, so while he was walking up a spiral staircase
sneaking around the ship, I had him slip on some stray marbles left by the
kid. He fell down the stairs and ended up out for several hours.

The major accidnet was a 1% chance but I let it stand even though it had no
bearing on the plot, could not be avoided through careful playing by the
player and had the potential (with only 3 players) of ruining their chances
of succeeding in the scenario. I think most GMs would have dumped the
result or re-rolled.

Once the other PCs found the hurt PC, the players spent the next several
(real) hours trying to devise a plan to sneak their fallen comrade back to
his cabin and get him the medical attention he needed. They couldn't allow
anyone else on the ship to know why they were sneaking around that part of
the ship you see.

The entire sub-plot and all of the complications involved with his
recuperation (he knew things about the ship but couldn't get out of bed to
act on his knowledge) would have been lost if I had dumped a die-roll
simply because I was afraid of the result.

In my game, if you are driving down the road in a car, you could have an
accident and be killed. Even if you are chasing the big bad guy and are
trying to save millions of innocent lives! :-)

I find that the dice make the game more unpredictable. For me as GM, an
unpredictable game is a fun game. Throw away dice results, and you throw
away the fun.



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 22:41:29 -0500
Subject: PC Deaths

On 09/15/96 at 07:13 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>I reacted completely immaturely to that, of course. :)  I "broke the 
>fourth wall" to a degree and had my m/u talking directly to the DM, 
>saying essentially, "You aren't going to kill me, because you CAN'T kill 
>a PC.  So just make this guy shut up and let me go!"

>Unfortunately, the DM didn't react any better than I did.  He backed 
>down, and followed our unspoken agreement that no PC would be killed.  

>The exchange could have caused our group to mature, but the DM and I 
>didn't handle it right. :(  It wasn't until a couple of years later, with 
>the death of Babe, that we finally changed that policy.

I've got a slightly different set of questions to pose...

Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?  

Have you ever done it yourself?  

As a GM would you let it happen, and how would you handle the
aftermath?  Divine retribution? <g>


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 23:00:09 -0500
Subject: Aslan dewclaw

Well I reckon none of ya'll grew up on a farm or around a lot of animals. 
<g> I've been knowing what a dewclaw was from way before Traveller came
out, and I *knew* the pictures were screwed up. Claws don't come out of
palms, they come out of fingers..they are nails after all. <g>

- --Webster's Dictionary--

dewclaw.  1) a functionless digit on the foot of some animals, as on the
inner side of a dog's hind leg.  2) the claw or hoof at the end of such a
digit.

Here's the way I picture it.  The Aslan have 5 digits, with the outer two
being opposable thumbs.  One of those thumbs, I've always pictured it being
the outer but the inner would work too, is a small nub that has no real
function in modern Aslan other than to house a long dewclaw.  During a
fight the Aslan clench their fists and the claw extends beyond their hands
like a short dagger.  With the hand open the extended dewclaw doesn't
usually get in the way, and they can keep it retracted anyway.  

If you want to humanize it, clinch your fist and extend your little
finger..that's where and the length the dewclaw would be, IMO.  <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:12:14 +1300
Subject: Re: 210 minutes in a steel games room.

> 
> For the amusement of the list, I offer up this little gem from
> yesterday's session.  Please note that it was only the _third_ game of
> the campaign, no less!
> 
> Background:  Players have been hired on as crew of a 200mt Frontier
> Trader (an older vessel recently upgraded to Jump-3, TL 12 with cramped
> accommodations being run by a non-spacer bank executive concerned with
> getting it from Strouden/Lunion to Regina as quickly as possible for
> delivery to new owner while cutting costs to the bone, largely in the
> form of minimal salaries).
> 
> Every single one of the characters save one promptly decide that the
> best way to come out of this ahead is to steal the vessel and head for
> the Darrian Confederation, and hence to a life of piracy and mayhem.

What a surprise! And, of course, the bank executive being a particularly 
clever bank executive expected that to happen, because it more often 
than not does, and used his good reputation and that of his associates 
to insure the vessals non-existant cargo for a very large sum. yes?

> All save one.  This one, upstanding Imperial Navy retiree, an engineer
> with two decades' experience, multiple decoration, and a personality
> best described as 'sensible' is obviously not going to go along.
> 
> While plotting just how to convert him, two of the other characters
> (pilot and navigator, no less) convince him to overpower the 1G thrust
> plates by one hundred per cent in order to make a flashy (? at 2G who's
> going to be impressed, anyways?) burn into Lanth.  Upon doing so, this
> exceptionally competent fellow promptly botches in the worst possible
> way.  Not wishing to doom them or anything, but feeling obliged to make
> their lives miserable as a result of this engineering abuse, I ruled
> that a power converter that feeds the thrusters has burned out.  No
> thrust, 210 minutes from burning up in Lanth's atmosphere, and an
> inventive technician.  No problem.  I figured they's borrow/modify a
> part or two from the jump drive (it _must_ have power converters, no
> matter if they're of a different sort. . .).

Players have faced a similar situation in one of my campaigns but they 
solved it by rigging up high-pressure oxygen jets which they ran at 
very high pressure till the ships supply was depleted. This controlled 
vent altered their course enough for them to be catapulted past the 
planet. The whole thing depended, of course, on the terminal velocity of 
the ship when its thrust died. 
Another trick as a last resort (this was kept as plan B by my players)is 
to by-pass the integrity controls on an outer airlock hatch and 
explosively decompress a section of the ship, preferably a section of 
the ship with a large airlockway (say cargo) and few obstacles to the 
rapid escape of the atmosphere bubble.
The weakness of plan B is the short duration and uncontrolled nature of 
the vent. The ship could begin to roll,yaw and pitch and oxygen jets 
might need to be used to right that.

> 
> I must say, I have never seen so many rolls failed quite so badly.  In
> the end, the ship burns up in the atmosphere with the engineer still
> trying to right things while everyone else evacuated, to be picked up
> by a passing patrol cruiser.
> 
> Our game's resident statistician calculated the odds of such a thing
> happening as being about 6/1000.
> 
> [sigh]
> 
> You just cannot keep players out of trouble. . .
>


------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 01:58:51 -0400
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

At 11:41 PM -0400 9/15/96, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?

Yes.  More than once.

>Have you ever done it yourself?

Yes.  We had crashed on this low-tech world, and while we were waiting for
friendly forces to find us, one of the PCs got bored and persisted in going
out of his way to antagonize the locals (shot up a couple of cars, stole
some cattle, shot the sheriff when he came out to protest).  When he
kidnapped the daughter of the local priest-queen, I busted in on them in
his stateroom before he could make matters even worse for us (the locals
expressed their displeasure by bracketing our crippled ship with a warning
artillery barrage) and executed him with a pistol shot to the back of the
head.  It took a lot of talking (and agreeing to do a drop into a rival
temple and liberate an artifact) before she let us off the hook.

Yes, we had some tl 13 weaponry and equipment, but the 12 surviving guys in
our company could only hold out so long against a (very angry) tl 7 force.

The other player was plenty pissed about it, but my character *had* warned
him that I wasn't going to let him get my team killed.  I even got
acquitted at the court martial.

>As a GM would you let it happen, and how would you handle the
>aftermath?  Divine retribution? <g>

I had a similar situation occur in a game I was running, and I let one PC
whack another PC who was acting stupid (guy was playing a pyromaniac with
demo-4, which would have been no problem if he hadn't had a hobby of
blowing up police cruisers).  I had to keep the deader from exacting
vengeance with his new character, though.

One of the players had been with our group long enough that it was
impractical to try and boot him, and the other guy was the roommate of the
guy whose dorm we gamed in.

If the situation came up again, I'd do what I always do - make sure there
is an in-character reason for the action, try to talk them out of it, and
very probably let it happen.  I very probably wouldn't let a player who's
only sitting in for one session kill a long time pc, but I can't see not
allowing it if there is a really good in-character reason.

Conflict is central to adventure after all.


Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

"To see tomorrow's PC, look at today's Macintosh." -- BYTE, October 1995



------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 18:27:14 UT
Subject: RE: Role-Playing with Mom & Dad/Metamorphosis Alpha

In a previous message, Douglas E. Berry answered my question:

>>BTW, I was wondering if anyone else ever role-played with their Dad (or 
>>Mom)?
>
>Ummm..  I had to make some hard Evasion rolls to go to Rocky Horror a >few
>times, not to mention many, many Fast Talk tasks...  does that count?

ROFL!

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 18:23:32 UT
Subject: RE: Listening to Dice

In a previous message, Joe Walsh said:

>Our group called it "maturity," but that probably isn't the right term.

Oh, no, that is an excellent term.  I debated about using it in my previous 
post...  but I didn't want to sound snooty...<g>

I think it is one of the reasons my initial gaming group died out.  Our games 
began to take on a sameness about them and no one developed their role-playing 
skills to the degree that death is an accepted, though undesireable, 
possibility within the game.  Not the only reason the group died out, but when 
the risk is low, the excitement seems to lessen to a degree also.

					---Boyd



------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 18:51:58 UT
Subject: RE: PC Deaths

Eris Reddoch said: Deaths
>
>I've got a slightly different set of questions to pose...
>
>Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?  

No, but I have had entire adventures spoiled by disputes between players.
>
>Have you ever done it yourself?  

I have thought about it many times <grin>.

>As a GM would you let it happen, and how would you handle the
>aftermath?  Divine retribution? <g>

Now, I would encourage the players _grow up_ and role play the entire 
scenario, death and all.  Disputes are fine, but hopefully the players will be 
mature enough to role-play their dispute as well -- making an interesting game 
all around.

BTW:  Good question, Eris!
					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 01:06:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Nobles per Goffin

From: Sam Draper <S.Draper@worldnet.att.net>

>I think the best evidence that the Imperial nobles were not a bunch of
>corrupt fools is the fact that the Imperium worked for so long, many times

Who said anything about fools?  

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 01:09:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dudley Do-Right

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>

>I was kinda wondering about what kind of PC roles your players have

>I have a player who has yet to break any law (Imperial or otherwise) in
>about 8 months of playing Traveller.  This is almost a record for my games

If you can't seduce your straight-laced players into illegal activity,
you're not doing your job as a referee.  You might read a few spy novels
- -- or true spy stories -- for some ideas. 

One approach is for a patron to offer fair compensation for work that is
legitimate here on planet A -- but the work is to be done on planet B. 
When the PCs do the work on planet B, they're subject to whatever problems
with local laws you want them to experience.  Planet B should of course be
a place that they have to visit regularly for campaign reasons.  Now every
time they go there they have to evade the law, which is a crime in itself. 
Within a short time, you should have them willing to summon Mephistopheles
and sell their souls to get out -- er, wrong game -- but you get the idea. 

You do need to exercise a little sublety.  "Would you take this cargo of
perfectly legal concealable firearms to the law level 7 planet on your
next trip?" won't do it.  "Would you please spend an hour with my elderly
aunt in the nursing home while you're on planet B, and tell her that
you've seen me and that I send my love," might. 

I think that I would tend to rise to this challenge, but it's never
occurred.  Eight months?  Maybe the player is a criminal in real life, and
is looking for an escape. 

- --Glenn

------------------------------

From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 16 Sep 96  9:55:16 EDT
Subject: Traveller Suite

TRAVELLER SUITE - A collection of on-line utilities for Traveller
    For EuroGenCon-96 I produced a demo version of a concept
for a Traveller Suite, similar in market positioning to the
recently released TSR CD-ROM. The features of the demo included:
    * On-line rules
    * On-line library data
    * Star maps of the imperium allowing viewing from sector
down to system level.
    * Character and NPC design and generation
    * Starship construction
    * Animal Encounter generation
    * Ship Deckplan Design
    * Planetary Map Editing
    * Language Handout Editing
    * Trade Account Management
    * A dice roller (including 1/2 d6 support)

   The demo elicited a very positive reaction from both players and
distributors and I received a large number of requests to make
this demonstration publicly available.
    Additionally Imperium Games have given us the go-ahead to take
this to the level of a potential product. We are currently in
discussions with them about licensing considerations and market
positioning.
    Although no one actually managed to crash the software while on
display (although many tried!) it is still only an alpha test
version. Its main purpose is to solicit feedback on what a final
product should look like and include.
    In order to best gather this response I would like to set up
a web site containing a number of pages:
    * A release page for ease of access
    * A user feedback page where people can add their comments and
suggestions
    * A Known Bugs and Workaround page where users can track problems
in the alpha version and how to live with them.
    Due to access problems I cannot maintain these pages from my
current account. I would be highly appreciative of any volunteers
from out there who can set this up for me!

    The development manager of this software is Jo Grant who can be
reached at jo_grant@crd.lotus.com. The project manager is Andy Lilly
who can be reached at A.S.Lilly@nortel.co.uk. This product is brought
to you by the CORE Traveller development group, in association with
Imperium Games, and is intended to compliment our range of upcoming
Traveller supplements.

------------------------------

From: tc@library.solent.ac.uk (Timothy Collinson)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 10:42:31 GMT
Subject: legal PCs

~EXTERNALFROM  : tc@library.solent.ac.uk
TO       : traveller@mpgn.com
SUBJECT  : legal PCs
DATE     :  Mon Sep 16 10:34:48 GMT 1996
ADDRESS  : Mountbatten Library, Southampton Institute,
         : East Park Terrace, Southampton, SO14 OYN
         : UK
TELEPHONE: 01703 319248

Message is as follows:

HomeBoyd asked about legal PCs etc and FWIW, in a mini
adventure I ran for the lady who drives me to work each day,
(one way to pass a hour's car journey each way I guess!), she
played a police 'agent' (from the High Passage no. 1 character
generation) who was never (it seemed) going to break the law
despite all the provocation given her.

Of course, with no other PCs to sway her morals it wasn't
that surprising.  Still, I was gratified at her comment when
she finished that she could "see what the attraction was"
(she'd only asked to 'play' to find out what on earth I went
on about all the time!).

Anyone else want to contribute to the "Odd places to play
Traveller" list?

tc
"Hi Boyd  :-)"


PS No I can't help with the weight of the unloaded rig.

------------------------------

From: Roger Sen Montero <rogersm@tau.uab.es>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 12:37:51 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #415

On Sun, 15 Sep 1996 owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM wrote:

> > > Imperium Games would not be
> > > doing good business if they have almost depleted a first run at this
> > > stage, when neither (apparently) the UK nor Australasia have even seen
> > > the product.
> > 
> > The UK HAS seen the product, BITS were selling it at Euro GenCon, as were
> > Caliver Books and Leisure Games. I assume the latter two are now selling
> > it mail order.
>
> Even we in Norway has recieved a small shiping of paperbacks.
> I got one over three weeks ago. And its seems that they are selling 
> like hot cookies. :-)

 Even in Spain we got some paperbacks (from Advance Comics, of course) 


 Regards,
Roger Sen Montero


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 07:22:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

I've had to kill PC's as a GM , and on one or more occaisions have had
other PC's kill each other (one was a "friendly fire" incident).

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:46:41 +1300
Subject: Re: Gotta find a new devil , Bob

- --------

> > Now consider that you can kill *everyone* in China, the CIS, India, and
> > large portions of Africa, Latin America, and it would have *no* effect
> > on our tech level, because none of those places contributes anything
> > *necessary* for maintaining our tech level.

As a matter of some substantial and undeniable fact the people of China, 
the former Soviet Union, India, parts of Africa and Latin America have 
indirectly contributed a great deal to the maintenance of "your" tech 
level through one simple process in many forms. FEAR. Fear of so many 
supposed enemies has driven the arms race and military research and 
development. The military has been the largest source of scientific and 
technological research and development in the last 50 years. The biggest 
irony is that Japan now has a startegic corner on the semi-conductor 
market to such an extent that the US Government had to set up its own 
semi-conductor factory so as not to compromise its strategic military 
pieces by reliance on Japanese supplied semi-conductors. That particular 
factory has now been closed down because it was so uneconomic.

Don't kid "yourself" chuck.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #417
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Traveller-digest         Monday, 16 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 418

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: PC Deaths
         2. T4 thoughts...
         3. Re: PC Deaths
         4. Re: PC Deaths
         5. One last thought. . .
         6. Re: Role-Playing with Mom & Dad/Metamorphosis Alpha
         7. Re: Metator
         8. Re: Expert Systems
         9. Re: Metator Questions
        10. Re: PC Deaths
        11. Re: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs
        12. Re: How does your game taste?
        13. Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright 
        14. Re: PC Deaths
        15. Re: PC Deaths
        16. Re: Listening to dice/dead PCs
        17. Re: Traveller Software (hopefully) Available
        18. RE: PC Deaths
        19. Re:About the core subsector (kinda long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 06:50:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I've got a slightly different set of questions to pose...
> 
> Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?  

Yes, but that was only early on.  Our group was fairly boring in that 
respect. :)

> Have you ever done it yourself?  

Nah.  When I played, I threatened to kill a couple of PC's if they didn't 
quit being idiots, but that was about it.

> As a GM would you let it happen, and how would you handle the
> aftermath?  Divine retribution? <g>

Sure I'd let it happen, so long as it made sense for the character to do 
the killing.  If, on the other hand, the player was just angry at the 
other player and decided to kill his character, I'd probably talk to the 
players in question first.  If they couldn't resolve their dispute 
without disrupting the game, I'd have to ask them not to play anymore.

I think I'd be able to do that.  I've never had to kick someone out of a 
game, though.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: mab@sdc1.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Mystic Musk Ox)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:00:28 GMT
Subject: T4 thoughts...

Hi all.

I ran a short, impromptu T4 game last night. A few questions arose partly
as a result, and partly from reading of the rulebook:


Tasks
=====

One character, having had much more beer than was good for him, (or anyone
else), attempted to drive the PC's van down the road. I thought: Ok, normally
an Easy skill, but he is completely out of his tree, lets make it Staggering
(3.5D). This character has a Dex of 10 and a drive of 1. So his target is
11. Well the average of 3.5D is 12.5, so the chances of him succeeding are
around 50%, which seems way too high...ok, I could have made it Impossible
(4D, average 14), or given minuses to the Dex or target number. In fact of
course I fudged it to make it interesting...but given that an average PC
can expect an attribute of 7-8, and a skill of 2-3, then Impossible tasks
don't exactly seem too impossible. ("The thing about million to one chances
is that they come up nine times out of ten").


Vehicles and Robots in Combat (p59)
===================================
   This section talks about damage to superstructure, power plant, locomotion
   or mounted devices. However, the vehicles given in the rules have no
   rating for any of these values, although they do have an armour rating.

   Is the comment about damage left over from MT? I seem to remember very
   similar wording. The Armour rating would also presumably protect against
   damage to the superstructure, power plant etc,etc, as above.

Laser Pistol (p74/p80)
======================
   In the text, it says that the Laser Pistol has a damage rating of 6.
   In the weapons table it says 4. I guess 4 is the correct number...


   Also, the Range column in the weapons table. Is this referring to the
   maximum ranges for these weapons? The discussion of combat (p55/p56)
   seems to imply that the only use for these range ratings is as a modifier
   for aimed attacks. But then why not just give the modifier, rather than
   the range which then has to be converted to a number on the range table?

Standard Military Laser Batteries (p110)
========================================
   TL 11 with 10 Wpns. Should the USP be: 12-9-5-3 (?)

Space Combat (p117)
===================
   Step 1: Task Force Assembly. What is the reason for dividing your ships
   into Task Forces? It doesn't seem to have any further effect in the rules,
   and in the case of determining Range, how does this work? You cannot easily
   keep track of ranges for seperate Task Groups. Or are all Task forces
   assumed to be at the same range?

   Step 3: Range. "If an entire Task Force consists of ships under 50 tons, it
   can close to Very Short Range and all ships in the Task Force may use point
   defence weapons. This is known as fighter strafing". Does the closing happen
   in 1 turn? (Presumably). How is using point defence weapons any different
   from using ships weapons normally?


Any thoughts?

cheers,

Mark Buckley   

------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 16 Sep 96 08:30:46 EDT
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

I once(whilst playing T.2000)  was playing a on-and-off-again PC (as an NPC
really, since I was running the session). The party had picked up a couple of
civvies to question, an old man and a teenage male. The group's Walking Weapons
Shack was conducting the interrogation. I chose to give the teen some attitude,
and the WWS chose to give the teen a 9mm slug in the back of the head. My
PC/NPC/ME went completely 'gut' and knocked the WWS down with 3 shots from a
SPAS-12. The Teen was dead, the WWS recovered, The Group was touchy for a
while, and eventually the WWS-player bailed out of the group to have children
and a life. 

Wow...that was  a long time ago...

------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 16 Sep 96 08:33:27 EDT
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

Really great questions, though! There oughta be a book of "Things Gone Bad"!
;->

------------------------------

From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 08:38:07 -0500
Subject: One last thought. . .

I've been following the dice-killing-characters thread, and I have one 
more bit of input (read, lousy cr.02 worth) to add.

In my experience, at least with the group I am privileged to play with 
now, everyone (including the fallen engineer) do a tremendous amount of 
work on their characters, identify with them, flesh them out etc.  
Definitely get attached to them, in short.

That said, I think every single one of them would have been disappointed 
with me had things gone differently.  While no one _wants_ to lose a 
treasured character, it cheapens their acievements if a player even 
_suspects_ that you're fudging things.

I'm not saying "NEVER IGNORE THE ALMIGHTY DICE", but rather "MAKE DAMN 
CERTAIN THY PLAYERS DON'T KNOW WHEN YOU'RE DOING SO!"

Players aren't idiots (much to my continual amazement. . . grin), and can 
tell when there's cheating going on.  If you aren't punishing their 
failures when richly deserved, how can they accept your rewarding their 
accomplishments?  It's two sides of the same coin.


//rant mode OFF.

------------------------------

From: Scott Ripley <abiscott@pop.erols.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:26:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Role-Playing with Mom & Dad/Metamorphosis Alpha

At 06:29 PM 9/15/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>BTW, I was wondering if anyone else ever role-played with their Dad (or >Mom)?
>
>

My teenage son has...he was one of the more interesting Vampire players our
group had..

And I RESENT MET:Alpha being rated BAD....it was just...er...more dependent
on an excellent game Master.


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Sep 1996 14:18:28 GMT
Subject: Re: Metator

Joe Heck, commenting on Metator:

>Metator is _really_ well done! Congrats!
>
>My only question is how do I get that data out of Metator - I noticed the
>preferences spoke of HTML exports... Is there any way I can have it generate
>some HTML files complete with graphics for me?

I will be adding an option to export a set of HTML files - haven't yet
decided is one HTML file per planet or one HTML file per system is the way to
go.  Suggestions?

Graphics will be harder.  I am using cicns, which means that the usual 'write
to a PICT and convert to GIF' won't work.  Advice from Mac programmers
welcomed.

Also, I need a UNIX script written: I want a report detailing who was logged
on to a particular workstation when (like a daily schedule).  I'm running
IRIX 5.3 on some Indy workstations.  Help greatly appreciated.

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:37:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Expert Systems

Mssr. Berry Said;
>Infantry-  The Queen of Battle!

I dare you to say that to an infantryman.

Pete




------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 Sep 1996 14:32:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Metator Questions

>1) Do you have any documentation available for Metator?  

Not yet.  Working on it.

>In particular, I need to be able to save the reports and data as text files

This is coming.

> Is there any way to change the font? 

Not yet.  Working on it.

>2) Do you have a list of codes used by Metator? 

Standard MT codes.

>Selecting "Classic Traveller Rules" or "Marc Miller's
>Traveller" in the Preferences dialog does not make these codes go away.

This doesn't work yet.

>3) What does "TPPG" mean?

>From MT.  Travele zone, Population multplier, Planetoid belts, Gas giants.

>4) What installations and base codes are acceptable?

The standard MT ones.

>5) Is it possible to edit the master lists of Local Customs? (Fun and
>useful ideas, BTW - are these yours?) It would be nice to be able to add my
>own extensive culture-generator texts to these.

If you use ResEdit you can.  These are from World Builders Handbook.

>6) What's the difference between "Generate System" and "Expand System"?

Generate rerolls the mainworld stats, Expand leaves the mainworld stats
untouched.  Thought this was explained in balloon help.

>7) The system Chart and Schematic are both far, far too large to view
>conveniently on my screen, and they're also too big to print out - page
>after page of black backgrounds would deplete my printer toner real quick.
>Can these be reduced? or saved in a format readable by a graphics program?
>(Preferably .TIFF or .GIF?)

Yup.  Choose Black & White under view.  This is actually a misnomer, because
you will still get colour icons but on a white background, so you can print
them.  Reduction is possibly but not on my list yet.  Saving is possible but
I will need some help (with copying cicn bitmaps).

>8) What is "Extensiveness"?

>From World Builders Handbook.

>9) What are the single-letter codes that appear after City populations? Are
>they continents?

Starport/spaceport codes.

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 07:05:48 -0700
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> On 09/15/96 at 07:13 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:
> 
>>I reacted completely immaturely to that, of course. :)  I "broke the
>>fourth wall" to a degree and had my m/u talking directly to the DM,
>>saying essentially, "You aren't going to kill me, because you CAN'T 
>>kill a PC.  So just make this guy shut up and let me go!"
> 
>>Unfortunately, the DM didn't react any better than I did.  He backed
>>down, and followed our unspoken agreement that no PC would be killed.
> 
>>The exchange could have caused our group to mature, but the DM and I
>>didn't handle it right. :(  It wasn't until a couple of years later, 
>>with the death of Babe, that we finally changed that policy.

The same thing happened when a much beloved NPC in a Fantasy game I was 
ref'ing was killed.  Debryndd of Rhyanedd, she'd been around for years, 
like everyone's little sister, they'd saved her life in the first part so 
there was an immediate bond.  No one ever stepped over the line with her. 
 She got trapped on an upper balcony with a particularly fearsome 
Orbaalese warrior, the PC's were fighting below and they had to watch her 
die.  It' was pretty horrible because they couldn't get up there and save 
her.
 
>I've got a slightly different set of questions to pose...
> 
>Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?

Yes, I was the first PC who killed another.  It was pretty devestating.
 
>Have you ever done it yourself?

We all decided there was no way I could know what had transpired twenty 
seconds before as he ran down the hall.  We were in RCES body sleaves, he 
had gone towards the exit of this sewer system we were in while I waited 
behind to see who was following us.  I got into a fire fight and he came 
running back, on the was back he "pulled his tabs".  For those of you who 
don't know RCES body sleaves have autoinjectors which pump you full of 
pain killers and stimulants, which for ten minutes reduce all injuries to 
nil and wake you right up.

Anyways' the fight goes on and he gets knocked out.  I drag him around a 
corner and immediately pull his tabs again to wake him up, unaware he's 
already done this.  Grumble (Sean) fails his endurance roll and his heart 
explodes when the extra batch of stimulants burst into his system.  I 
dragged his body out of the sewers and across a ten kilometer wide 
no man's land on my belly.  I felt just awful, and my character has since 
this gone slightly loopy.  Unable to preform any kind of spiritual 
cleansing ritual, Voodoo is Spiri, this whole incident has weighed 
greatly upon our soul.  Of course the fact the the GM delights in rubbing 
it in doesn't help much.
 
>As a GM would you let it happen, and how would you handle the
>aftermath?  Divine retribution? <g>

As a GM of course I'd let it happen.  Personally Voodoo has stepped out 
and gotten extremely blotto in an attempt to purge the sins...

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 15:09:01 +0100
Subject: Re: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs

Stuart L. Dollar writes:
> No, you're not going to see T4 stocked at your local Sears (as you used to 
> with D&D stuff).  Really, the difference between then and now is 
> there are more choices.

>From personal experience I'd disagree.  The difference between now and
them is there are less shops selling fewer games.

When I moved to Bristol about nine years ago, there were five stores
that sold role-playing games, two model shops, a "Virgin Games Store",
a "Games Workshop" (who had about a stand and a half of other peoples
games), and a comic shop that also did games.  The model shops stopped
doing games about seven years ago, just slightly after "Games Workshop"
stopped doing other peoples games.  The comic store reduced their
range about five years ago to the point where they just seemed to be
selling off old stock, and Virgin have since changed their policy to a
central ordering scheme where only head office orders games, and those
are all AD&D or WW.

I now live in Coventry, we have a Virgin store and a Games Workshop.
The only real game shop I know in the West Midlands area is in
Birmingham (Dungeons & Starships), nowhere else seems to do games any
more.

			Chris.


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 07:39:34 -0800
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

1On 14 Sep 96 at 12:53, Boyd Schneider spewed:

OK, I'll bite...

> 1)  What "style" or "flavor" of Traveller play do you participate
> in?
> 
> a) FREE-WHEELING: A campaign where PCs wander about in search of
> adventure, often setting their own goals and objectives in spite of
> various rumors and encounters by the referee.
> 
> b) STORY-TELLING:  A campaign where PCs participate in a story,
> pretty-much narrated/controlled by the referee.
> 
> c) ONE SHOT ADVENTURES:  A series of individual adventures, where
> PCs may or may not be the same every time, but otherwise unrelated
> to one another as they would be in a campaign.

Probably a combination of the 3 above, although my latest group has a 
tendency to want to keep the same characters going...  I tend to 
write things as a b) but they often wind up as an a)

Stu

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:44:12 -0400
Subject: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright 

There was a situation that happened while I was ref-ing a game in
college, with several of my friends and my girlfriend (who now happens
to be my wife). I wanted to start a campaign in a totally different setting (I
computer-generated a sector of data and wrote up a short history), but I
used the old CT adventure, *The Chamax Plague*, to get the campaign
started. I have always loved this adventure: it is the perfect "starter"
adventure, action-packed, but with several hooks to get a group started. 

Anyway, if anyone recalls the details to the adventure, the group is called
to investigate why the mining corporation in the system has lost contact
with a scientific expedition it sent to the only habitable planet in the
system (called Chamax). To make a long story short, the players arrive on
the planet to find it a desolate wasteland. They find the expedition's ship,
but there are no people aboard, and the place seems deserted,
UNTIL...the acid-spitting, spider-like Chamax awake, and begin attacking
the players. One of the characters, who was extremely full of himself
because of his good looks (that's the way he wanted to play the
character), and who was hitting on my wife's character (another reason
for me, as the Ref, to be evil), got pinned down by one of these Chamax,
and was having acid spit on him for several rounds while he tried to fight
it off. My wife's character tried to come to his rescue, by shooting the
beast with her laser carbine (even though I warned her of the possible
consequences). The laser ripped through the beast's acid sac, bathing
the other character in acid.  The dice said that the character should die,
but I let him come within an inch of his life. The group promptly delivered
him to the nearest hospital facilities, where he underwent reconstructive
and bionic surgery, with physical therapy lasting for over a year.
Needless to say, they were unable to restore the character's good looks,
and throughout the rest of the game, that player never ceased to abuse
my wife for "saving" his character's life.

Rich Sezov, Programmer/Analyst--Networks
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:53:55 -0400
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

"Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?"

No, but we once had one PC beat up another.  The victim was new.  We had
encountered him in a dangerous place full of baddies, and we had (as 
characters) no reason to believe he was benevolent.  He gave cute, 
cagey answers to questions.  When our main tank-like PC lost patience 
andslapped him around, the player got incenced because he felt it was 
a universal (and, unfortunately for him, unstated) rule that PCs never 
attack one another.  The players negotiated for a while, but he left 
the game and we didn't miss him.

"Have you ever done it yourself?"

No.

"As a GM would you let it happen, and how would you handle the
 aftermath?  Divine retribution?"

I would let the consequences play themselves out in the game.  If, as 
GM, I strongly disapproved of the slaying, I might very well let the 
consequences be highly unpleasant, maybe even terminal, but it would be 
(say) arrest, trial, and execution, not bolts from the blue or sudden 
fatal accident.

Earl Wajenberg





------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 07:53:56 -0800
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

On 15 Sep 96 at 22:41, Eris Reddoch spewed:

> I've got a slightly different set of questions to pose...
> 
> Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?  

Oh yeah...  As a matter of fact, I once wrote a short campaign that 
created a dynamic where everybody wanted to kill each other.

At the beginning of the campaign, I told the players that they were 
wanted by Imperial authorities for a particularly heinous act of 
piracy the subject of which had been a local Duke, which had devolved 
into cold blooded murder...

Prior to the game, I setup 1 of the players as a "ringer", an 
Imperial agent in disguise who had orders to setup the group as 
targets for assassination...  Index cards were used to communicate 
with me and each other back and forth throughout the game...

The campaign ended with the group shooting it out amongst themselves 
in the cramped hallways of the corsair they owned...  A couple of the 
characters had figured out was going on, and wound up taking sides 
with the agent...  

> Have you ever done it yourself?  

In D&D, never in Traveller, but I haven't played in too many 
Traveller games...just run a whole lot.  I've definitely had NPC's 
kill off PC's who were doing exceptionally dumb or reckless things.  
OTOH, I've occasionally ignored the odd dice roll if I thought it 
would further the campaign to do so...

> As a GM would you let it happen, and how would you handle the
> aftermath?  Divine retribution? <g>

Key point is to remove hard feelings on the part of the player whose 
character got sacrificed.  We used to have a player in our group who 
used to be rather sadistic.  His characters always had a mean streak. 
 There were times when the other PC's would try to kill his PC, there were 
times character would watch him start a fight, and then back away 
into the crowd, acting like they had no idea who he was...  He 
finally left our group as a mutual agreement...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:35:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Listening to dice/dead PCs

Well, on the topic of killing off PCs...

If you want to get a group used to the concept of
killing off their precious characters, pick
up Call of Cuthulu.

The group I was in played "Shadows of Nyarlarothep" (sp?)
a campaign module, and I went through (I think)
8 chatacters. Runner up had 7. The most careful player
had 4 I believe. Not all of them died, mind you.
At least one was arrested and (of course) one went insane.
The joy of it all was trying to come up
with a decent explanation as to why my new character
had suddenly joined up with the group and how
to keep information flowing from one generation to another
(one guy sent everything he found to his uncle/brother/priest/
lawyer/etc, so the new characters always knew some part
of what the hell was going on).

Anyways, in some campaigns, the death of a PC can be very
traumatic. In others, it's a good excuse to do more silly
role-playing! (Not that I would want to run a Trav campaign
like a COC campaign, but that's not my point).

Ethan


------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:47:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller Software (hopefully) Available

Guys,
	I have a hqx file, but I don't know how to decode it!!  Does anyone 
know where I can find a net utility to decode this file type?  I ran UUDecode 
with no luck.  Thanks!

Matt

------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:10:34 -0700
Subject: RE: PC Deaths

My opinion is that if there's nothing to loose then there's no reason to =
invest real thought into the situation. The possibility of a PC dying =
must be real. Even arbitrary, senseless death, as of a bystander, should =
be a possibility.

Of course these things should happen very rarely.

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 12:11:27 -0400
Subject: Re:About the core subsector (kinda long)

>I have a problem with the map of the core subsector in T4.  Actually I
>have several problems with it, including a number of typos, but the most
>important difficulty is that the map does not seem to fit canon. 
>According to my trusty font of Traveller dogma, the Imperial
>Encyclopedia, the Sylean Federation had been around several centuries
>before Cleon declared the 3rd Imperium into existence, and it was supposed
>to comprise a whole sector at that time.  So why are there "unexplored"
>planets on the map?  Is this a map from before the Syleans took over the
>rest of the sector?  In that case, it is not from year 0, as some seem to
>have assumed (including myself) but from at least -500.  Thoughts? 

To quote Firesign Theatre, "Everything you know is wrong!"
        
Well, not everything. I sent Imperium Games an e-mail questioning whether
there had been an error in the subsector map. Apparently, when compared to
the old Core Sector in the Atlas of the Imperium, the new Core Subsector
actually looks like the subsector right above it on the old map. The reply I
got was (although this is not an exact quote) "We published what Marc Miller
sent us." It then went on to say that the sector data files, and presumably
other information created by the old DGP, was now considered unofficial.
        Before anyone has a coronary, remember you were warned. It was
stated that, with the new way that the maps were going to be done for First
Survey, only the worlds known to the Sylean Federation were going to be
mapped in any detail. It makes sense to change the map as well; otherwise
players could whip out the old Atlas and have at least an idea of what is
out there.
        Another reason for this as identified by Derek Wildstar over on the
GDW-BETA list, is that the old sector maps, with the exception of the
Spinward Marches and the Solomani Rim, were generated "randomly" by
computer. The sector data done by DGP was also generated randomly. The
problem apparently lies in the random number generator; it ain't. Thus,
weird results occured. So, MM is apparently re-doing the areas that were
originally done automatically.
        I LIKE THIS! It makes everything new again, but doesn't have to
change the broad sweep of Imperial history AT ALL. We are all discovering
the Imperium for the first time again, just as our characters will. (I
expect no major changes to the Spinward Marches or Solomani Rim sectors,
though.) I also get VERY tired of this "canon" nonsense. This is a GAME, not
a religious text! The title on the book says "Marc Miller's TRAVELLER"; that
should tell you all you need to know.
        Finally, it's your campaign! If you don't like it, use the old maps!
IG doesn't have the time or the interest to hunt you down and FORCE you to
use the new maps. If "Rubicon Cross" is any indication, adventures are going
to be written to drop into any suitable planet, not for specific ones
(except maybe Sylea). No problem!
        Sorry about this being so long.
                                                Allen


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #418
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Traveller-digest         Monday, 16 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 419

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Law-abiding PCs (Td V96#417)
         2. Re: How does your game taste?
         3. Re: Traveller Software (hopefully) Available
         4. RE: PC Deaths
         5. Frontier Wars Convention
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #417
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #417
         8. Re: Metamorphosis Alpha
         9. RE: PC's killing other PC's
        10. Re: Traveller Software (hopefully) Available
        11. Re: Expert systems
        12. PCcide
        13. Playing w/Dad
        14. Re: Traveller Software (hopefully) Available
        15. Freelance Traveller - REAL SOON NOW
        16. Idea & T4
        17. Re: PC Deaths

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 12:17:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Law-abiding PCs (Td V96#417)

"Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com> wrote:
> From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
> >I have a player who has yet to break any law (Imperial or otherwise) in
> >about 8 months of playing Traveller.  This is almost a record for my games
> 
> If you can't seduce your straight-laced players into illegal activity,
> you're not doing your job as a referee. 

That all depends.  I once ran a campaign that was squeeky-clean.  No PC
comitted any illegal actions for the duration of the campaign.  If the
referee can't keep things exciting and interesting without forcing the
characters to break laws, then the referee isn't doing his job.

There are plenty of exciting things that can happen _to_ PCs, even if the
PCs are paying attention not to break any laws themselves.  Examples of
campaigns of this type include ones where the PCs are active-duty military,
or are law-enforcement types.

As a player, I find it an interesting challenge to pick PC "unusual" PC
traits and go with them.  For example, a character who is a doctor and
refuses to carry a sidearm.  Another character who specalized in non-lethal
weapons (he was an awfully good shot with the tranquilizer dart gun, and had
a wide variety of other things in his bag of tricks).


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:24:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

On Sat, 14 Sep 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

> 1)  What "style" or "flavor" of Traveller play do you participate in?
> 
> a) FREE-WHEELING: A campaign where PCs wander about in search of adventure, 
> often setting their own goals and objectives in spite of various rumors and 
> encounters by the referee.
> 
> b) STORY-TELLING:  A campaign where PCs participate in a story, pretty-much 
> narrated/controlled by the referee.
> 
I'm actually running two campaigns, which is working quite well to my
suprise.  The "Primary" campaign is set at Glisten/Glisten and is "Type
b".  The background is rich and detailed (and, so far, limited to Glisten
and other planets and habitats in the system).  The story line complex and
well laid out in advance.  The players are being (to my suprise)
cooperative in running down the leads I give them and following the plot
quite nicely.


> c) ONE SHOT ADVENTURES:  A series of individual adventures, where PCs may or 
> may not be the same every time, but otherwise unrelated to one another as they 
> would be in a campaign.
> 
the second adventure, which we started because we found the five players
of the primary campaign could only meet monthly at best, uses published
and internet published material with pre-generated (by me) characters
adapted for the setting (Spinward Marches, near Regina).

We have used the King Richard (from Action Aboard by FASA, circa 1983 or
so) as the first adventure, which proved quite adequate.  I prepare very
little (which leads to some improvisation) and pretty much run the
adventure out of the book. 



> d) OTHER:  Another style that doesn't fit in
the above.
> 

The adventure we used to play was a long, self-directed adventure where
the players managed to steal an Ahanti High Lightnin and started rampaging
around the Trojan Reach sector, preceding  all their incursions with a
particle accelorator beam.   Classic Monty Haul in Space.  It was fun for
a while.

The classic example was when (trying to test the moral limits of the
characters) a full busload of Nuns got on the wrong end of a FGMP while
two kittens, a puppy and a woman pushing a baby carriage crossed the
street in front of it.

Those were the days!

Pete 


------------------------------

From: Guy Wilson <ccguy@showme.missouri.edu>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:45:00 +0000
Subject: Re: Traveller Software (hopefully) Available

Do you have a recent version of Stuffit Expander? That should do it.

Guy Wilson

mchildre@pcshs.com wrote:
> 
> Guys,
>         I have a hqx file, but I don't know how to decode it!!  Does anyone
> know where I can find a net utility to decode this file type?  I ran UUDecode
> with no luck.  Thanks!
> 
> Matt

------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:51:26 -0700
Subject: RE: PC Deaths

Not in Traveller.  We did in a AD&D game though.  We had just ended a "mega" 
campaign with high level characters retireing and starting a brand new 
"world".  Unfortunatly, there were still all of the old grudges and rivalries 
from before.  We all had nothing to lose with begining characters and before 
the night was over either the PC's or monsters had killed the entire party.  
This was maybe 15 years ago & I still remember it.  

Matt C

------------------------------

From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 12:03:50 +0000
Subject: Frontier Wars Convention

is it permissable to post information on a convention with Traveller 
events?

The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html

------------------------------

From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 13:14:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #417

>Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?  
>
>Have you ever done it yourself?  
>
>As a GM would you let it happen, and how would you handle the
>aftermath?  Divine retribution? <g>

Well, for starters, my PCs are usually in danger of killing one another 
every ten minutes or so, it seems. . .  [grin]

But seriously, yes, it has happened, in more than one game, though it's 
hardly commonplace.

As far as how I would handle it as a GM, it depends entirely on the 
paradigm of the game involved.  In D&D, for example, it is assumed that 
the characters are 'good', or at least 'neutral' the cast majority of the 
time.  The game has a certain morality built into it.

In such a game, ominous things might develop as part of the plot.  In 
Vampire, on the other hand, it isn't so much a matter of the game 
condoning or not condoning an action, but rather everyone (character 
doing the killing especially)'s reactions to it.

In a game like Traveller, with a Law-Level system and more amoral (as 
opposed to immoral!) background, it would depend more on the reactions of 
those who found out, and potential legal problems.

But under no circumstances would I _EVER_ kill a character as mere divine 
retribution.  That is a serious abuse.  Players are (of course) 
tremendously undergunned vs. the referee.  if the game ever degenerates 
into an "us vs. him" mentality, everyone loses as the game becomes 
unstable and likely unenjoyable, and of course the players can't win that 
fight in any event which will lead to bad feelings outside the game to 
boot!


My cr.02

------------------------------

From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 13:20:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #417

>What a surprise! And, of course, the bank executive being a particularly 
>clever bank executive expected that to happen, because it more often 
>than not does, and used his good reputation and that of his associates 
>to insure the vessals non-existant cargo for a very large sum. yes?

Actually, said bank executive was prepared for such an eventuality by 
including two gunners aboard the ship, ostensibly to ward off piracy.  
Well, in fact to ward off pirates. . . [g] One gunner in particular was 
an EVIL ex-marine, and could have easily held off the entire crew of PCs, 
had they done anything but accidentally burn the ship. . .

>Players have faced a similar situation in one of my campaigns but they 
>solved it by rigging up high-pressure oxygen jets which they ran at 
>very high pressure till the ships supply was depleted. This controlled 
>vent altered their course enough for them to be catapulted past the 
>planet. The whole thing depended, of course, on the terminal velocity of 
>the ship when its thrust died. 

Problem here was that they had decided to hot-dog things, and so delayed 
decelerating (from awfully fast) until it would be _necessary_ to do so 
at double thrust.  Why?  I have _no_ idea!

>Another trick as a last resort (this was kept as plan B by my players)is 
>to by-pass the integrity controls on an outer airlock hatch and 
>explosively decompress a section of the ship, preferably a section of 
>the ship with a large airlockway (say cargo) and few obstacles to the 
>rapid escape of the atmosphere bubble.

Actually, the mian problem with that one (as I understand it from reading 
this list) is that decompression simply isn't that powerful a force, 
compared to the vessel's mass and momentum.

Which goes to prove that PCs are by FAR the most devious, inventive bunch 
of idiots the galaxy has ever seen!


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:28:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Metamorphosis Alpha

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 18:29:05 -0700
> 
> >>Which of the *three* different editions are you so in love with? And
> >>how do you feel about Metamorphosis: Alpha?
> 
> Loved it!  Greatest "bad" game in history, especially the way Craig and I
> played it.

Doug:  Umm, how come I never noticed this giant flashing pillar two
       kilometers from my home village?

Craig: Ah, well, you see, ah, er, your people have a taboo against looking
       that direction.  Yeah, that's it.

Doug:  Well, then, why am I looking at it now without any problem?

Craig: Er....the shock of leaving home wiped the taboo from your mind.

Doug:  The shock of walking 1500 meters from my front door *wiped* --

Craig: Drop it or I'll hit you with a level 4 radiation blast.

Doug:  Gotcha.  OK, so I look at this very large, obvious, flashing
       pillar, glancing longingly over my shoulder at my Mom, standing
       in the doorway of my old hut, averting her eyes from this
       direction --

Craig: [Grabbing dice] OK, you asked for it!

Ah, the joys of 14-year-old roleplaying (or 10, in Doug's case).

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Author of Orb: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/orbinfo.html
   |    Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:52:15 MST7
Subject: RE: PC's killing other PC's

In one game (ADnD, as it happened) the GM's wife had been making a 
nuisance of her PC (we were then wanted by several towns for crimes she 
had committed...she liked to dress up in all her finery, and use her 
high charisma to seduce rich nobles and merchants...then rob them 
blind after she'd drugged them) and based on the "the GM doesn't want 
to sleep on the couch, does he?" principle, the GM hadn't done 
anything about it.

	Well, we were sitting around a table after a particularly harrowing 
adventure (old dragons are not a nice thing to piss off!) when the 
three separate plots to kill her came about...two PC's had poisoned 
her, another three stabbed her, and my character, on his own, had 
decided to shoot her with a crossbow for dessert.

	The GM's wife took this with a little less than gracefully, but soon 
realized that we all loved her as a person, it was just that her 
characters tended to be, well, a little obnoxious.

	She had a pixie in another campaign who had 'D.S.' branded into his 
forhead by another PC...something about a fireball, the rest of the 
party, a small enclosed space...

	Finally, in another game, we had the entire party break down into 
fighting with each other as 100 orcs were hunting for us.  No one got 
out of that one.

	Somehow in any of the Traveller games I've played, we've never had 
anything like that happen...we've always managed to kill ourselves in 
other fashions first.

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:36:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller Software (hopefully) Available

Nope.  Never heard of it.  Is it available out on the net?  If so, pls include 
the site address & I'll download.  Thanks!

Matt C
<---- Begin Included Message ---->
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:45:00 +0000
From: Guy Wilson <ccguy@showme.missouri.edu>
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Sender: owner-traveller@NS.MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Traveller Software (hopefully) Available
To: traveller@MPGN.COM

Do you have a recent version of Stuffit Expander? That should do it.

Guy Wilson

mchildre@pcshs.com wrote:
> 
> Guys,
>         I have a hqx file, but I don't know how to decode it!!  Does anyone
> know where I can find a net utility to decode this file type?  I ran 
UUDecode
> with no luck.  Thanks!
> 
> Matt



<---- End Included Message ---->


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:56:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Expert systems

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 09:33:57 -0700

[re: Human-in-the-loop fire control]
> >Alas, on the modern battlefield, the time and 
> >sensory constraints are becoming tight enough that it's sometimes 
> >impractical to put a human in the loop.
> 
> But only sometimes.. the essence of 3cI is to put your men in a position
> where they have a basic knowledge of what to expect, so that fire control
> and discipline is maintained.  This is a basic as "don't shoot until you see
> the whites of their eyes".  I'm certain that a Trepida has an excellent fire
> control system that includes sensor profiles for all known threat vehicles
> and some sort of IFF system, however, the final shoot/no shoot is going to
> be the gunner's job.

Here's our point of contention:  My assertion is that, as tech levels 
advance, the gunner's job is going to become increasingly *advisory*, 
with the actual shoot/no shoot split-second decisions left to the FC 
system, simply because human reaction times will be too slow to be 
left in that loop as the pace of battle increases.  The gunner's role 
will be selecting targeting priorities, rates of fire, and so forth, as 
well as having override control should it happen that a "manual" shot is 
necessary.

And this may well be the case even for individual infantrymen.  Vernor
Vinge, in "Across Realtime", describes a gun which uses autotargeting to
fire only at human size/shape targets in an area.  You turn it on, then
sweep it over the desired field of fire...each time it finds itself aimed
at a human, it lobs a projectile.  The effect is like a machine gun on
full auto, but with no wasted ammo.  Needless to say, you can set it for
"real" full-auto as well; but in most cases, you let the weapon FC system
do its job.  *This* is the direction I see for infantry weapons, and
tactics.  Smarter weapons, doing more of the work, leaving soldiers free
to think on a slightly higher level, about tactics, without worrying so
much about identifying targets, aiming at them, and pulling the trigger. 

> Something that just occured to me.. in the early days of the Rebellion, how
> many battles came to a screeching halt when the fire control programs
> announced that that was an Imperial tank/ship/whatever, and couldn't be
> engaged... (Imagining the face of some Admiral as the computer tells him
> that he's in violation of Navy reg KS3558.635-3(y))

Even more fun...imagine the Chips in the IFF transponders deciding they'd 
just as soon not get turned to glowing plasma, and busily spoofing one 
another to keep the forces from engaging. :)

[Re: Phalanx, point-defense automation]
> Which is why we spend MCr on point defence fire control for our vehicles.
> That is the "turn it loose" type of weapon you are talking about.  Speaking
> from experience, an Apache helicopter can hide behind terrain, and give you
> less than three seconds exposure and fire *six* AT missles at six different
> targets.  In the face of this, the Army is already developing
> counter-measures, such as prismatic smoke to defeat the targeting laser.
> Having a small chaingun slaved to a low-power radar as a point defence
> weapon would be a good idea.  that would be the kind of thing that became
> part of the battle drill: "atomic batteries to power, turbines to speed,
> point defence active and scanning."

My point is that, as tech improves, more and more of warfare is going to 
look like short-window, point-defense combat.  In an environment filled 
with autoengaging defense systems, any vehicle or soldier who breaks 
cover is going to be pasted very quickly indeed.  This in turn demands 
that, like modern attack helicopters, vehicles *and soldiers* will need 
to fire in "pop-up" mode...break cover, fire a number of very accurate 
shots *very* quickly, then get the hell back under cover.  And this 
demands fire-control automation, because the human eye, brain, and hand 
aren't wired to do this quickly enough.  Nerve impulses travelling at 
about 216 miles per hour ain't gonna beat fiber-optic logic going at 
186,000 miles per *second*.

> >Even when a human is in the loop, the trend in modern weaponry is clearly
> >toward machines identifying, sorting, and prioritizing targets, a human
> >picking one from the list, and then the machines engaging the chosen
> >target.  This is happening most slowly in ground combat, which is the most
> >cluttered, confusing, hard-to-analyze kind.
> 
> Tell me about it.  There is progress being made however.  The Army is
> testing an outgrowth of the GPS system that allows every vehicle in the unit
> to know where his comrades are, and reiceve updated enemy information as
> battalion processes contact reports.  This allows for junior commanders to
> have a much better picture of what is happening around them.

This is what I'm talking about in my point about "thinking tactics," 
above.  Rather than thinking about details of weapon handling, soldiers
will think about how and where to apply them.  This continues a trend
that's been going on for centuries; musketeers needed to think a *lot*
about the details of loading and firing their weapons, WW1 and II riflemen
less so, and users of modern light MGs, SMGs, and assault rifles even
less. 

> Most tank combat happens at about 750-1000m, Infantry engages at 50m(!) This
> tells you the nature of the two "contact" arms.  Tanks can have all the
> bells and whistles they want; I want a good rifle and a deep hole.  Using
> Combat/Battledress you could put a transponder/IFF system in, but you don't
> want to give an infantryman to much to look at, or he won't see the bad guy
> until to late.

You'll certainly want to be able to turn *off* most of the HUD info on
demand...but other times, I think you'll want to see it.  Options are the
key. 

> >It's progressing much more rapidly in naval and air warfare.  Incidents
> like >the Stark (Phalanx turned off, ship trashed by Exocet) and the
> Vincennes >(Aegis fire-control system on, designates Iranian airbus as
> hostile, humans >rubber-stamp this decision, hundred of civilians die) are
> cautionary markers >on a trail which we're nonetheless following.  And as
> technology improves, >ground combat *will* follow suit, though probably
> always lagging sea, air, >and space combat.
> 
> Very true, although when all is said and done, it will still come down to a
> bunch of dirty, tired guys with rifles (bolt-action, ACR, Gauss, or plasma..
> makes no difference) crawling through the remains of a city.

Yeah, but as time goes on, they'll have a far better idea of where they 
are, where they're going, who's nearby, and what to expect next.  And the 
first indication of a baddie may well be their own rifle firing itself.

> Infantry-  The Queen of Battle!

Hmmmmm...thought that was artillery. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Author of Orb: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/orbinfo.html
   |    Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 16 Sep 96 10:58:03 MS
Subject: PCcide

Eris Reddoch wrote:
>Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?  
>
>Have you ever done it yourself?  
>
>As a GM would you let it happen, and how would you handle the
>aftermath?  Divine retribution? <g>

Yep, a couple of times.  Fortunately, it has nearly always been "death by 
accident" or "death as a consequence of foolishness/fate."  In one case, two 
PCs were clearing a house during a rescue attempt.  One team of PCs had secured 
the first floor and found the hostage; these two were detailed to clear the top 
floor to make sure the party didn't take fire on the way out.  Instead of 
sticking together, the PCs split up and began combat-clearing the rooms by 
lobbing a grenade in each room, entering and spraying, and then moving on.  I 
handled the two players in separate physical rooms so they would not know where 
the other was.  Sure enough, one PC heard somebody moving in a second room, 
misidentified his location on the radio to the other PC, and then proceeded to 
kick in the door and throw a grenade in.  A Combat Environment Suit is great, 
but a TL12 HEAP grenade a close range kind of vaporizes the hands and face not 
covered by the suit (as well as perforating the "protected" bits).

Another time, a group of PCs decided to "remove" an illegal MegaCorp research 
center by sabotaging its power plant for an explosion.   All well and good, but 
the guy in charge decided (for reasons I still have not clearly understood) 
that the explosion needed to be very large and dramatic, and set up a fairly 
large fission/fusion bomb (2+ megatons), with a 30-MINUTE timer.  Since it then 
took the party 15 minutes to fight their way out to the air raft (which was 
damaded; half speed), you can imagine what happened to them when the blast hit.

As for "intentional" killing of a PC by another PC, I've never had that in 
Traveller.  I have had this happen once or twice in Harnmaster, but that tends 
to be a much different mindset for both players and GM.  I would be opposed to 
a PC killing another PC in Traveller, unless there was a _damned_ good reason 
for it.  I have had PCs beat each other up or drug each other, and I've had a 
PC turn in other PCs for piracy, but no killings yet.

I would certainly follow through with such a PC killing, though; all of the 
consequences.  Other PCs would be expected to react appropriately, and the 
legal repercussions would still be there (most of my PCs, sad to say, have done 
some form of time, or at least shown up on wanted posters on various worlds of 
the Spinward Marches)

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 15:38:21 -0400
Subject: Playing w/Dad

Boyd wrote:
>BTW, I was wondering if anyone else ever role-played with their Dad (or Mom)?

I started playing D&D in the 6th grade way back in 1981. I ran out and
bought the basic D&D set and my Dad got interested in it also. He was
the one who bought the Players Handbook and DM's Guide. We played quite
a few games, even got my sister playing for a bit.  That year for
Christmas I got the Traveller book, and we played that also, never
really had a campaign, just random adventures.  A few years ago my Dad
saw an ad for a new game, called Magic so he bought me two packs for
Christmas. He plays that now, he works for Pratt &Whitney and he plays
it at lunch with his intern, and with the guys in the Boy Scout troop
he is scout leader for.  My Dad's always been into games of any sort
from chess to cribbidge.  I guess I picked up that from him also, I'll
play any sort of game.

Lewis Roberts
PS I remember going into the Hobby store to look at the D&D stuff, when
I saw the Traveller Book, I'd flip through it, what really got my
attention was all the pictures of rifles, laser carbines, blades,
cutlasses etc.  Pretty silly  reason to buy a game, but I was only 12.

------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 15:41:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller Software (hopefully) Available

At 10:36 AM 9/16/96 -0700, mchildre@pcshs.com wrote:
>Nope.  Never heard of it.  Is it available out on the net?  If so, pls include 
>the site address & I'll download.  Thanks!

>Do you have a recent version of Stuffit Expander? That should do it.

<http://www.tucows.com> has version 4.0.1

  James Garriss          |  Counter Genocide
  jpg@langley.mitre.org  |  A Traveller Story in Progress
                         |  http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss/


------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 15:52:31 -0400
Subject: Freelance Traveller - REAL SOON NOW

Hi,
I had a question for Jeff Zeitlin, about his Freelance Traveller.  I
like writing up ships, Npcs, world write ups and the like, but I
usually send them straight to the TML, from there I hope someone puts
it in their web page, or saves it to disk.   I was just wondering what
relationship you saw between your Freelance Traveller and stuff put on
the TML.  Hmmm that doensn't quite say what I am thinking....  I guess
what I am wondering is why I should send it to you and not the TML. 
That sounds much harsher than it should, but I can't figure out a
better way to say it  right now.  Guess I am not feeling very literate today. :)

Lewis Roberts

------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:15:05 GMT
Subject: Idea & T4

>From: "James M. Kelleher" <kelleher@holonet.net> 
 
>Immortals: 
 
>Well yes we have been here for Milinnia... 
 
>We have been living amonst you, keeping a "Masquerade". 
 
>Have your players accidently find out one immortal's True status... 
>What will he/she do? 
 
In my limited-run games, one of the PCs *is* an immortal-- 
Hi-Powered Psi with Awareness at "Immortality" levels, plus 
at various times he's had the cash for long-term anigathics 
use.  And then there was the couple thousand years in cold 
sleep on the ESA slowboats going to the Islands cluster... 
And it all started because of a sabotaged J-drive that resulted 
in a *temporal* misjump. 
 
>Kinda depends on what kind of project he/she has going, and how 
>convenient it is for him/her to "die" and go underground again. 
 
Which reminds me: the PC mentioned above recently awoke from a deep- 
space accident to find himself a prisoner of a noble clan of a TL 1 
(anomalous) Theocratic Matriarchy, of extreme law level, dwelling in a 
subterranean arcology... place called Menzoberranzan. 
 
(Had to convert everyone to GURPS rules to cover this one, but such a 
beautifully detailed society!  Such potential for fun... ;-) 
 
>He/She could just try to discredit them or Kill them, remember such 
>a being would be able to weild Tremendious power, both political and 
>physical. 
 
Or co-opt them... <evil grin>   (Readers of the _Phule's Company_ 
novels will get my drift). 
 
                               --Cynthia 
 
- -- 
"Alt.gothic - sort of like going out for coffee with 3000 of 
 your weird friends."                         -- Eric Oehler 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---NRA---- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 15:31:40 -0500
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

Well, I have been relatively quiet in the past about RPG experiences
because, as some of you already know, I am somewhat "green"  having only
played or reffed a handful of games.  However, this is one subject that I
can speak out on, because I had characters experience near death injury.

We were on our starship and my characters (yes we each played two) were in
their quarters.  The ship was attacked and we were boarded.  The ref had
designed special weapons for our main character and secretly designed a
defect into each one.  My guy got the laser pistol he had been given.  This
pistol had a knob on it where the user could adjust the power of the charge
delivered from one to 6.  I set it to 6, and it started glowing.  The ref
had made the defect in my weapon made it explode when the power was set at 6.

To make a long story short, my character threw the gun at the guy in the
door but the gun hit the door and fell to the ground in the cabin and blew
up.  The little bed in my characters' stateroom was no where near enough to
shield them from the blast.  Rather than kill them, the ref put them in the
hospital for about three months with third degree burns covering most of
their bodies (only because the ship had an emergency lo berth).  We rolled
up some temporary characters for me to use while the others healed.


Eris said:
>I've got a slightly different set of questions to pose...
>
>Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?  

We had one character in the same group that was a bully, he always wanted to
pick a fight, so often we would let him and he would get beat up, but we
never had the characters fight each other.

The same group I played with played RoleMaster and one of the guys played a
Kinder that was always irritating the other characters.  We often wanted to
kill him, but there was always one uf us that was levelheaded. :)

>As a GM would you let it happen, and how would you handle the
>aftermath?  Divine retribution? <g>

This would depend on the situation.  If it is in character, then I would
allow it to happen.  As to divine retribution, I don't know that it would
have to be devine, most worlds have laws about killing people, and the
Character would have to face that law if he couldn't hide.


Paul  {tiger}
http://www.datasync.com/~tiger


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #419
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Traveller-digest         Monday, 16 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 420

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. two questions
         2. What REALLY happened to the Orichalum.
         3. re: PC's Killing PC's
         4. Re: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)
         5. Re: Role-Playing with Mom & Dad/Metamorphosis Alpha
         6. Re: How does your game taste?
         7. Re: PC Deaths
         8. Re: legal PCs
         9. Re: PC Deaths
        10. PCs killing PCs
        11. Re: Expert Systems
        12. TO IMPERIUM GAMES
        13. Re: How does your game taste?
        14. Re: PC Deaths
        15. Re: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)
        16. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #418

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 17:06:25 -0500
Subject: two questions

Has anyone recieved the T4 Hardcover yet?

Anyword on the Starships book that was scheduled for a September release?


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love."
 - Turkish Proverb   		http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: "RODERICK DARROCH ELLIOTT" <elliot_r@LSA.Lan.McGill.CA>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 17:13:51 EST
Subject: What REALLY happened to the Orichalum.

     Yes, to confirm what Ross Coburn has been telling you, we really 
did manage to blow out the maneuver drive and crash (well, burn up) 
the ship, losing the engineer in the process, within three gaming 
sessions.  Contrary to whatever slander he's probably been spreading, 
IT WAS NOT OUR FAULT.  It may have been extremely cool & funky, but 
we had no intention whatsoever to blow up a 40Mcr ship; it just kinda 
happened... one minute the flight crew (composed of a totally 
depraved drug-addicted nutbar of a pilot [who snores] and the totally 
blameless and all-around-nice-guy navigator [ahem]) is there ragging 
on the engineer to overload the thrusters so that they can pull a 
really studly orbital insertion, and then boom, a critical component 
burns out, multiple emergency repair attempts failed, and the 
(heroic, and almost spotless) navigator winds up talking a prolonged 
emergency EVA tethered to a distraught (but nevertheless cute) 
banker.

     It was one of the more entertaining sessions we've had, too.  
And ironically, all PC's behaved very well: despite plans ranging 
from stealing the ship and heading for the Darrian Confederation to 
selling the bank rep and her bodyguard off for organ transplants once 
we got to Lanth to holding a wildcat strike three parsecs out in the 
middle of nowhere to just starting to slit throats just then and 
there and to hell with the consequences, we actually managed to save 
said bank rep's butt (well, my PC did, but he had ulterior motives
 that aren't suitable for a family mailing list that had to do with 
said portions of the bank rep's anatomy), make the 6:00 
Holovid news on Lanth, and take some time off to go hang out on the 
beach.

     And, the hilarious thing is, is that none of it was our fault, 
and even if it were, the evidence is all gone, so we're off scot free 
(despite the fact that we didn't actually do anything to begin with)

     So, we're out of a tiny, old, cramped 200ton freighter where the 
longsuffering navigator had to hot-bunk it with a short-tempered
 paranoid junkie pilot with poor hygiene who slept with a knife 
under his pillow, and, apparently into a 400 Ton yacht with a better
 maneuver drive, bigger lasers, and much better accomodation to boot, 
far better suited to a comfortable life of bloodthirsty pira..., er,
gentlemanly adventuring on the spacelanes.

     Just to help us not get shortchanged by Ross, does anyone have a 
good idea of how much ransom a Count would fetch?
*-----------------------------------------------*
| R.D. Elliott... ...elliot_r@lsa.lan.mcgill.ca |
*-----------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

From: Tom Opgenorth <topgenor@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 15:34:52 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: re: PC's Killing PC's

I Gm'd on game of Twilight:2000, where the Officer in Command was a bit 
of a overbearing jerk.  So, one night while they were carrying out a raid 
on a village, the party changed the fire-plan for the FN-MAG's to sweep 
the area that the O.C. would be assaulting, without informing the O.C.  Plus 
the non-machinegunner characters experienced problems getting off the start 
line, so the O.C. ending up going in alone.  The MG's chewed him up to 
within a inch of his life, and the local denizens finished him off in a 
most brutal fashion.

I didn't do anything about it, because it seemed like a perfectly natural 
thing to do to an officer, especially a crazy, aristocratic, twit.  Lord 
knows I haved wanted to do it on several occasions.  Besides, the rest of 
the party went to great efforts to conceal their plan, so that the player 
in question would think that it was a screw-up, not a plan.

===========================================================================
Tom Opgenorth                               topgenor@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Edmonton, Alberta,Canada                 http://www.worldgate.com/~topgenor
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manubay's Laws For Programmers:
  1.  If a programmer's modification of an existing program works, it's
      probably not what the users want.
  2.  User don't know what they really want, but they know for certain what 
      they don't want.
===========================================================================


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 12:36:24 -0700
Subject: Re: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)

Tom Ellis wrote:
> 
> I won't quote Joe's long response, but I will point out that almost all
> the game books I have (Traveller and many many others ) state somewhere in
> them that the Ref *should* ignore dice rolls when it is in the best
> interests of the campaign. I don't throw away every disagreeable roll, not
> by a long shot, but I have and will.

My view on this is that my mission, as a GM, is to _entertain_. If I am not entertaining 
the players, they will go elsewhere to have fun. If I'm not having fun, I'll go do 
something else that is fun. To quote McCarthy from David Gerrold's _War with the Cthorr_ 
cycle: "I know fun. I've had fun. This isn't fun."

My criterion for listening to the dice is: what's the most fun and best for the game? 
I take the individual players in my games into account: If the _player's_ gaming style 
is amenable to storytelling, then I listen to the dice less; if the player is a 
by-the-book/rules-are-rules wargamer, then I let the Eculdian solids fall where they 
may. Most of my players tend toward the latter, so I spend a lot of time listening to my 
dice. The players seem to be well-entertained, as am I.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 12:53:34 -0700
Subject: Re: Role-Playing with Mom & Dad/Metamorphosis Alpha

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> 
> Loved it!  Greatest "bad" game in history, especially the way Craig and I
> played it.

I've always thought the greatest 'bad game' in history was AD&D ;)  Or maybe it was the 
"classic" Space Gamer turkeys _A Fistful of Turkeys_ . . . .Wait, what about _Banana 
Quest_ . . . or _Kung Fu CB Mammas on Wheels vs. The Motorcycle Aztec Wrestling Nuns_? . 
. . <author laughs maniacally>

> 
> >BTW, I was wondering if anyone else ever role-played with their Dad (or >Mom)?
> 
> Ummm..  I had to make some hard Evasion rolls to go to Rocky Horror a few
> times, not to mention many, many Fast Talk tasks...  does that count?

My parental and sibling units think roleplaying is an Evil Mind Control Cult(tm) or a 
College Thing(tm) I never outgrew. I have to keep making those Resist Temptation to Beat 
Crap Out Of Brother rolls every time he brings up the topic of gaming. 

I say: Fuggemifdeycanttakeajoke!


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:30:22 -0700
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

In my RC game, my style was "mission-oriented." The players, being new to TNE, wanted 
some kind of guidence to see just what they were 'supposed' to do in TNE (Each RPG has 
this problem. In Werewolf, PCs 'are supposed to' fight the evil Wyrm. In AD&D, they 
'arer supposed to' delve into Dungeons and kill Dragons for their pile of GPs. And so 
on.) When I told them what the RCES does, the PCs agreed to sign up as a mission team. 
They went so far as to _enlist_, not to work as Lancers. 

Well, they asked for it . . . and I delivered.

The mission-oriented game gave me a lot of control over where to send the PCs in pursuit 
of their careers as Star Vikings. If the CO says "Go," you Go! I could (and did) use 
LOTS of published scenarios: _Smash & Grab_ (the raid on the PDM site), _Challenge_ (The 
Hiver scenario as well as the hijack of the pirate ship from #75), _Striker ][ (My PCs 
dropped into Cleft Begvoot), and _Vampire Fleets_ (the whole Promise campaign, with a 
side adventure involving a mad genius and 20-meter tall(!) FF&S-designed 
Virus-controlled Death Robots armed with lasers, particle beams, rocket packs, machine 
guns and HUGE kinetic Gauss cannons that looked for all the worlds like _BattleTech_ 
'Mechs. Who, ME??). 

> 
> The adventure we used to play was a long, self-directed adventure where
> the players managed to steal an Ahanti High Lightnin and started rampaging
> around the Trojan Reach sector, preceding  all their incursions with a
> particle accelorator beam.   Classic Monty Haul in Space.  It was fun for
> a while.

I _like_ that! My first CT team did something like this; gradually turning their Free 
Trader into a casino/bordello in space. I'll never forget when they installed hidden 
cameras in the staterooms to record the various ongoing amatory gymnastics for sale on 
the black markets of morally-straitlaced worlds like Brigham (self-generated subsector). 
. . .

> 
> The classic example was when (trying to test the moral limits of the
> characters) a full busload of Nuns got on the wrong end of a FGMP while
> two kittens, a puppy and a woman pushing a baby carriage crossed the
> street in front of it.

Okay, did they toast 'em or not? ;)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:28:56 -0700
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> 
> I've got a slightly different set of questions to pose...
> 
> Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?

If you mean 'murder' and 'not by accident,' then yes! This happened in a game where the 
fast-talking businessguy tried to rip off the knuckle-dragging gun-bunnies. The latter 
exhibited a few more IQ points than the former expected to see, found out that the Suit 
was going to rip them, and the gunbunnies wired his office with a quarter-ton of 
plastique . . . instant shredded suit. As GM, I gave the victim a chance to spot the 
trap, and he blew every die roll. I took both the character's basic personality 
- -- paranoia and overconficence -- into consideration when deciding the outcome of this. 
The player of the dead PC took his anger out on the other players, in other games, but 
not on me (I didn't play in his game, being it was Hampire: The Masked Ace Raid, and I 
_hated_ WW's 'system.'  I do _like_ the World of Darkness background, tho').

> 
> Have you ever done it yourself?

In my first D&D game, I killed a PC, as Johnny Cash said in _Folsom Prison Blues_, just 
to watch him die. I spent my turn under the sword, too ;)
> 
> As a GM would you let it happen, and how would you handle the
> aftermath?  Divine retribution? <g>

Damned right I would! And as a matter of fact, it's _karmic_ retribution, and I'm not 
joking.

How do I explain this?

As a matter of religious conviction, Eris, I believe in Reincarnation and Karmic 
Justice. I hold the the effects of one's deeds on other people echo through and beyond 
the lifetime in which they were done. In meta-game terms, the players are the 'eternal 
souls' of the characters they play, the part of each that breathes 'life' into those dry 
numbers and tries to make those quantified values _real_, in a human sense. As GM, I 
play the role of "The Rest of Reality and Meta-reality," including Karma, in my game 
universe. 

I make it clear to the players that everything they do has consequences that go beyond 
the immediate, that every time the PCs decide to hurt somebody, _it had better be for 
the right reasons_. My players wind up righting a lot of wrongs; and I take the 
resulting Good Karma into account when adjudicating situations not covered by the 
rulebook. If a violent conflict arises between PCs, I take their individual acts into 
account as I adjudicate the struggle. When one dies, I tell the group, "Karmic Justice 
is a pitiless _bitch_," and let them figure it out. The dead PC often "reincarnates" as
what I call an Iago (from Iago Montoya in _The Princess Bride_ :"My name is Iago 
Montoya. You have killed my Father -- Prepare to die!") . . . . The resulting cycle is 
No Bloody Fun and is thus self-limiting.


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:41:20 -0700
Subject: Re: legal PCs

Timothy Collinson wrote:
> 

> Message is as follows:
> 
> HomeBoyd asked about legal PCs etc and FWIW, in a mini
> adventure I ran for the lady who drives me to work each day,
> (one way to pass a hour's car journey each way I guess!), she
> played a police 'agent' (from the High Passage no. 1 character
> generation) who was never (it seemed) going to break the law
> despite all the provocation given her.

I've noted this in the one-player games I've run: PCs seem to feel more likely to commit 
crimes if they are either experienced or in a group. Is this a kind of "mob mentality," 
seeking the lowest common moral denominator?

> 
> Of course, with no other PCs to sway her morals it wasn't
> that surprising.  Still, I was gratified at her comment when
> she finished that she could "see what the attraction was"
> (she'd only asked to 'play' to find out what on earth I went
> on about all the time!).

Good on You!

> 
> Anyone else want to contribute to the "Odd places to play
> Traveller" list?

How 'bout the dining room of a Carl's Jr resturant or a transmission-repair shop? I've 
run games in both kinds of places, the latter because it had a barge table and it was 
after hours, the former because it had a AYCD beverage bar.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Sam Draper <S.Draper@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:43:33 +0000
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

At 03:41 AM 9/16/96 +0000, eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) wrote:

>Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?  

I had someone threaten to kill my PC one time.  I had borrowed an expensive
piece of equipment from her character, and it had been destroyed.  The
following week, as the session started, she told me to pay up or die.  Her
husband was the referee and they had the whole week to work out my untimely
death.  Her character was much tuffer than mine, so I talked fast and got
her to back down, much to the chagrin of her husband.  A short while later,
I noticed that my character had suddenly become very unlucky.

So I paid her off.

When I first started playing Traveller, we had one of the players threaten
to kill the referee.  That problem was not as easy to solve.

Traveller is different than most RPGs, inasmuch as a PC death does not
automatically result in the person starting over again with a weak
character.  In fact, how much adventuring you have done has little relation
to the character's abilities.


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 17:10:43 -0500
Subject: PCs killing PCs

I didn't post answers to my own questions originally, because I wanted
everyone to have a chance to tell their "killing PC stories" unencumbered.
<g>

As a GM, I've had quite a few PCs die, and from the player's viewport I
*killed* them, but I don't look at it that way.  I'd say their lack of
caution, stupidity, or bad luck killed them. <g>

As a player, I've only attempted it once, and it would have been
cold-blooded murder.  It was a PBEM StarTrek game, and I was playing the
Ship's Captain, a semi-pirate..Ok, we were full-blooded pirates. <g>  The
character in question had endangered my ship several times, attempted to
hijack it, and then insulted me in front of the crew..unarmed..with 3 men
holding phasers on him!  It was a deathwish, no other way to explain it.
<g>

I agonized about it for a day before I let my character do what he had to
do..put a phaser into the guy's chest and pull the trigger.  

Then the GM stepped in and arranged for my shot to miss and for him to get
away!  <Aaaargh!> Of course, he claimed it was all fair rolls on the dice,
but with a PBEM...<g>

The PC in question escaped to his own ship, where he ended up being spaced
by his own crew.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:22:50 -0700
Subject: Re: Expert Systems

On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu> said:
 
>Mssr. Berry Said;
>>Infantry-  The Queen of Battle!

>I dare you to say that to an infantryman.

I *am* an infantryman.  The Infantry is Queen, Artillery is King, and
Cavalry cleans up after the horses.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 19:56:53 -0400
Subject: TO IMPERIUM GAMES

        Could we on the TML have some clarification from someone connected
with IG what the "officialness" of materials published in the past is? This
seems to be of some concern (although I myself do not care), and there is
much confusion, wailing and gnashing of teeth, and so forth going on here. I
unfortunatley deleted the e-mail I got from you on the subject, so I can't
confirm directly what was said.
                                        Allen

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:48:02 GMT
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

On Sun, 15 Sep 1996 17:22:52 -0500 (CDT), Joe Walsh wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, James Lindsay wrote:
> 
> > Introducing a player that has never role-played before and watching his/her
> > response to the situation can be priceless.  The event can become even
> > greater when that player decides to play again next session.  The hardest
> > part I found is explaining to new players how the campaign world is
> > different than our own REAL LIFE.  
> 
> Yikes!  You're kidding, right?  Or am I misunderstanding you?  You seem 
> to be saying that new players tend not to know the difference between 
> fantasy an reality.  I must be sloooooooow today....that can't be right. 

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear  :-)  While yes, there are players such
as you (mis)interpreted out there, my thoughts were more along the lines of
customs, morals, ethics, laws, physics, etc.  Maybe I should have phrased
it as "...different than (as well as similar to) our own REAL LIFE".  Most
people will freely admit that they know the difference between fantasy and
reality... it just isn't evident in their role-playing, sometimes (ie: the
murder of a "bunch of statistics representing an NPC" is rarely handled
with as much vigour as that of a "real life human being", nor are the
consequences leading up to the actual act of murder).

Many think of fantasy RPGs such as AD&D as being sooo far detached from
modern day REAL LIFE that they *automatically* assume that different
moral/ethical customs preside.  The idea of picking up a gun or a sword and
actually using it in a lethal manner is foreign to most of us, yet some
newbies seem to think that this is the "core" of what role-playing is
(probably due to the "hack & slash" mentality begun by TSR so many years
ago-- they have since grown up and have produced some thoroughly
intellectual adventures since then).  It all depends on the system and how
it is presented by the referee: Harnmaster (most notably, Lionheart) could
be considered rather "low on the fantastic" but highly accurate to
historical fantasy, while AD&D might be thought of more like an
action-packed four-colour comicbook where gold seems to be more common than
toilet paper.

> And the idea of "down time" is interesting as well.  The most down time 
> my players' characters get is typically no more than a week or so.  Not 
> long enough to open a business or take a tour. :)
> Perhaps I should give that a try sometime.

When you play a traditional Traveller campaign you are usually moving
around too much (minimum distance: 1 parsec) to set up a business (you
could tour, though  :-)  In a game system where you are more-or-less
confined to a single city, it becomes quite easy (a week here, a week
there... pretty soon you'll be serving up Squishies of your own!

As for another idea from out little gaming group, try appointing one member
to keep a written chronicle of the events that happen during the campaign.
This works really well if you are using a bunch of mini-adventures linked
together with a grand scheme entwining them all.  What happened during
session#3 might have significant relevance during session #11 and this
gives the players a way of looking back and picking up these earlier pieces
of the puzzle.  Our last Shadowrun campaign lasted nearly two years of real
time and the chronicle is now over 1 Mb long!  The guy responsible for
writing it basically took notes during the gaming sessions and has begun
compiling them into an actual work of fiction!  Now that's how to remember
your campaign.


James W. Lindsay    Vancouver, British Columbia

"Ack! Icky plptht TAZ grunga yeek... PLPTHT!!!"
                             -Tasmanian Devil

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:48:00 GMT
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

On Sun, 15 Sep 96 22:41:29 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> I've got a slightly different set of questions to pose...
> 
> Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?

Couple of times.  The most memorable one actually happened to me, and to
the current day I don't know why.  The other PCs claimed that they weren't
*directly* responsible for my character's death but I'll let you decide
:-)

We were playing Call of Cthulhu and my character (the legendary Jimmy
Molson-- teenage photographer for the Daily Planetary) had been stricken
blind earlier in the gaming session.  Yours truly was in the bathroom (err,
taking care of business) when the PCs (consisting of Clark Ment, Lois Mane,
& Perry Mite) thought that it was in the best interest of the party for a
*blind* individual to take point while they decended the main staircase of
an old haunted house.  When I returned to the gaming table, it was to the
chorus of... "make the most important roll in your character's life!"
Naturally, I failed, and little Jimmy Molson proceeded to:

	a) become the target of spontaneous human combustion,
	    causing him to...
	b) trip & fall down the stairs, while...
	c) continuing to spontaneously combust, during which time...
	d) his ammunition begin to explode, which naturally...
	e) set off the dynamite and molotovs he was carrying, which...
	f) proceeded to scatter burning bits of him everywhere, which...
	g) started a major fire in the lobby, resulting in...
	h) the whole house burning to the ground!

Another gaming group told me a story of a player in their TW2000 campaign
that was a bit of a pain in the ass.  They decided to lock him away inside
the group's APC while the rest of them talked to the locals about trading
for some supplies.  Our character, locked away inside the APC, decided he
didn't *like* being locked up and proceeded to try and blast his way out
using an Armbrust (ie: disposable anti-tank weapon)....

Stop laughing.

> Have you ever done it yourself?  

I've wanted to, but somebody else beat me to it!

> As a GM would you let it happen, and how would you handle the
> aftermath?  Divine retribution? <g>

Our players don't have a problem with character death, as long as it fits
into one or more of the following criteria:

	-it is the result of a player "just asking for it"
	-it benefits the plot (ie: it fits into the grand scheme of things)
	-all applicable rules are used to allow for survival
	-the death sequence is "glorious" (see Jimmy Molson above)
	-the referee isn't a sadist and has the trust if his/her players

For example, a character that roleplayed a trip to the corner store to buy
some milk and was killed by a guy running a red light (due to an encounter
table or other randomly determined event) would be a pointless waste of
both the character & the time that went into his/her creation.  OTOH, if
the driver of the car was hired by someone to kill the character and make
it look like an accident, and the PC was given all of the necessary chances
for survival as listed in the rules (perception, damage, etc.), I would
find nothing wrong with it.  Of course, the referee better have a *pretty
good* reason for it and allow the character's teammates some chance at
trying to figure out what happened (and possibly exact revenge).

The ongoing story is what is really important when running a campaign
designed with some sort of grand scheme linking the gaming sessions
together (and not just a bunch of adventures that have little bearing on
each other).  However, a player should NEVER feel that his/her character
isn't contributing, be it while the character is alive or in his/her death.
The only thing worse than a pointless death is a pointless life (ie: the
character fails or is prevented from participating in the plot of the
campaign).


James W. Lindsay    Vancouver, British Columbia

"Ack! Icky plptht TAZ grunga yeek... PLPTHT!!!"
                             -Tasmanian Devil

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:47:59 GMT
Subject: Re: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)

On Sun, 15 Sep 96 10:00:12 UT, Boyd Schneider wrote:

> ...I have heard of a game in which 
> PCs were killed so often that the players all finished the adventure with 
> different PCs than they started; except one -- each PC dropping out and 
> "handing off" the ongoing storyline to another slightly different group.  The 
> moral being that the "story" or adventure is what is important -- and not any 
> pasrticular PC or PCs.

Ah, this sounds like Call of Cthulhu.  According to our ref, it is not
uncommon to come across a line in a publisized adventure that states
something to the effect of "by this time, XX players should have been
killed off...".  It just so happens that in this particular campaign, only
one player *did* manage to survive to the end... and only because he played
in only half the gaming sessions.  Sigh.

------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:01:01 +1300
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #418

> > Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC? 
Sure. When you are young you are such rubber people and the 
concept of mortality hasn't been fully grasped so this becomes apparent 
in the cartoon way characters in RPGs are played. I had players pull a 
few Black Spy vs White Spy type gags in the early years of playing. One 
sees the same kind of thing in the DOOM type computer games with the 
option to play deathmatch (a well used option I am sure).
These days though my players are very aware of their own mortality and 
plays their characters that way. They don't do things now that they 
would have before and don't carry petty disagreements from reality into 
the travellerspace. Travellerspace is a more rational place because of 
that and I feel sometimes that the game has lost something because of 
that (fun perhaps?).

> > Have you ever done it yourself?

Not consciously, though I still have players who believe to this day 
that I engineered circumstances deliberately or fudged dice roles 
against them. I turn I believe some players cheated with critical dice 
roles in my group in the past. It is funny how they can consciously 
teamcheat by sitting there watching a critical dice role then back up 
the person who returns a cheat call. Maybe I am just paranoid or maybe I 
 have been in enough teamcheat situations as a player to be suspicious.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #420
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Traveller-digest         Tuesday, 17 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 421

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: How does your game taste?
         2. Re: PC Deaths
         3. Killing PC's
         4. More Deck Plans
         5. Re: PC Deaths
         6. RE: How does your game taste?
         7. RE: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)
         8. RE: Killing PC's
         9. Re: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)
        10. Re: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs
        11. RE: PC's killing other PC's
        12. Weird places to game...
        13. What is official by Imperium Games
        14. Re: Death, lots of it
        15. Greetings and thanks
        16. Re: Traveller Suite
        17. History and Money
        18. Re: Traveller Library Data.
        19. Re: History and Money
        20. Re: Re: Deck Plans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 02:12:55 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

Hy folks,

	First of all refreeing Traveller tastes different than
	refreeing other RPGs.

	- In "Midgard" we have a group of heros travelling to the
	  lands slaying dragons, and they have a clear distinction
	  between good and evil. 
	- In "Deutschland in den Schatten" we have the "big city
	  fealing" high tech, low life. I realy enjoy that a campain
	  can be started and you have an other set of players every
	  session. I also like the events of calling a decker by
	  phone.
	- In Traceller we have the "we are all in the same boot"
	  fealing wich makes this game exiting.

	So how does my game taste ?

	I'm preparing all npc characters on board, and try to find
	a place for the players by a first talk in the kitchen.

	Next I know an event line, every flight has some events, e.g.

	  - a noble passenger is going mad
	  - the ship is crossing a bunch of asteroids
	  - they get a message from star port that they
	    should wait for jumping because an important
	    mail has to be deliverd (together with the noble
	    who is coming on board, and there is no free
	    staterroom ;-)

	Now the came starts the players interact. The clock
	now has an important role, normaly I'm asking "next
	day" every hour, while the players talk and I try to
	make my part refreeing the npcs. When an event occur
	I'll switch to real time, this is ok as I now can
	calculate in turns. Realtime and the uncertain of
	sensors makes an interesting thrill for the game !

> In my RC game, my style was "mission-oriented."

	I always travell in the wilds. I dislike the "you get
	order to ..." scenarios, I also thing that my group
	(Knigth Takeda *Daibei D* - piloting, astrogation,
	 Nadine Xerxes Gamma 17 - marketing, navigation,
	 computer, Howl *Vrag* - security, Galileo *fibre
	 optics* - astrogation, sensors and fire controll,
	 Nasti *standart* - technic) will fit well in a
	RC campain - I think they wont let they in.

	I more like the "you have trouble" scenarios so
	I've tried to refree the Midu-Agasham fleet, with
	them, but they managed a spilt of the fleet before
	the first jump, because they decided to offer their
	trader to one of the empires, Nadine, Galileo, and
	Nasti moved to the Merc, while the rest of the playes
	moved to Mother. Nadine gave Kaneda a "kill him"
	chip written by Calilo some scenarios ago. Principal
	died, the group was questioned about their ship.
	They decidet to poker and told that they dont thing
	the fleet will make an additional jump as their
	AI's are now controlling the Merc and the Empire.

	They got rigth ;-)

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 02:32:47 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

Moin Eris Reddoch,

> Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?  

	thats very common, i think that more characters died
	in the hand of players than in other ways. The first
	was a dispute in D&D where a priestres of Mamon asks
	for a high payment for healing a mage. Its usual in
	my group to try to kill new characters in Shadowrun.
	And even in Traveller "we are all sitting in a boat"
	our medicine killed a character.

> Have you ever done it yourself?  

	I've done it several times. Of course some characters
	would imagine to kill others, but others tell strait.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:48:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Killing PC's

Traveller, No.

I did have this happen to me in both Space(d) Opera and AD&D.

In SO, it was a Rauwoof (canine) chasing the Mekpurr (feline) character
around with a grav platform.

In AD&D, a high-level mage and a high-level cleric had a long-running feud
(the two players hated each other). This conflict escalated until (to make
a long story short) the mage polymorphed into a pool of water and the
Cleric unknowingly killed him by casting purify water on him - he'd had a
bad experience with a water wierd. ;)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 17 Sep 1996 04:48:14 GMT
Subject: More Deck Plans

I have uploaded and verified three more deck plans:

Dr. Grant's Ether Flyer
Harbringer
Tin Juggernaut

Thay can be reached at:

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Space1889/space1889.html


Enjoy.  Send money or sleep (taught 08h45 to 22h00 today).

PS. These are Space 1889, but you might still be able to use them in a
Traveller game.  Besides, I'm proud of the Harbringer.

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 23:42:08 -0500
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

On 09/16/96 at 01:28 PM,  Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com> said:

>As a matter of religious conviction, Eris, I believe in Reincarnation and
>Karmic  Justice. I hold the the effects of one's deeds on other people
>echo through and beyond  the lifetime in which they were done. In
>meta-game terms, the players are the 'eternal  souls' of the characters
>they play, the part of each that breathes 'life' into those dry  numbers
>and tries to make those quantified values _real_, in a human sense. As GM,
>I  play the role of "The Rest of Reality and Meta-reality," including
>Karma, in my game  universe. 

Whoa! It's getting *deep* in here. <g>

I don't believe in reincarnation or karma.  I'm monotheist and in the games
I GM guess who's Ghod?  Think old testement!  <g> Miracles *do* happen and
so does divine retribution, and the universe is *not* random..it just seems
that way.  Ramdomizers are useful, but they shouldn't *determine* the game.

...but I *never* tell the players that, just let them figure it out like
real life. ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 96 04:54:50 UT
Subject: RE: How does your game taste?

Peter  H. Brenton said:
>>>The classic example was when (trying to test the moral limits of the
characters) a full busload of Nuns got on the wrong end of a FGMP while
two kittens, a puppy and a woman pushing a baby carriage crossed the
street in front of it.

Those were the days!<<<

ROFL!

					---Boyd


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 96 05:14:30 UT
Subject: RE: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)

James Lindsey said:

>On Sun, 15 Sep 96 10:00:12 UT, Boyd Schneider wrote:
>
>> ...I have heard of a game in which 
>> PCs were killed so often that the players all finished the adventure with 
>> different PCs than they started; except one -- each PC dropping out and 
>> "handing off" the ongoing storyline to another slightly different group.  
>The 
>> moral being that the "story" or adventure is what is important -- and not 
>>any particular PC or PCs.
>
>Ah, this sounds like Call of Cthulhu.  According to our ref, it is not

Nope, it was...    Ars Magica or something like that -- I didn't participate 
in it, only heard about it post facto.

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 96 05:22:03 UT
Subject: RE: Killing PC's

I must say that this has been the most amusing thread I have seen since I have 
been on the TML (or Xboat for that matter).

Bravo, everyone, bravo!!

:-)>

			---Boyd

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 06:12:19 GMT
Subject: Re: Listening to Dice [Long] (Was: re: Lawful, Upright Characters)

On Tue, 17 Sep 96 05:14:30 UT, Boyd Schneider wrote:

> Nope, it was...    Ars Magica or something like that -- I didn't participate 
> in it, only heard about it post facto.

Hmmm... we generated characters once but we never got around to actually
playing it so I can't reply.  I can't really see any reason why somebody
would think that Ars Magica was more prone to the "PC revolving door"
syndrome than any other RPG, however.  Must have been the ref.

In Ars Magica, players control two PCs; one, a mage, and one, a mundane
(ie: non-magically inclined individual).  You were supposed to alternate
between the two characters depending on the mission the group undertook....


James W. Lindsay    Vancouver, British Columbia

"Ack! Icky plptht TAZ grunga yeek... PLPTHT!!!"
                             -Tasmanian Devil

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:32:34 -0800
Subject: Re: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs

On 16 Sep 96 at 15:09, Chris Lloyd spewed:

> Stuart L. Dollar writes:
> > No, you're not going to see T4 stocked at your local Sears (as you
> > used to with D&D stuff).  Really, the difference between then and
> > now is there are more choices.
> 
> From personal experience I'd disagree.  The difference between now
> and them is there are less shops selling fewer games.

Well, I can't relate to what's going on in the UK, I can only relate 
to what's happening here.  Then again, GW hasn't opened shops here 
yet...  And from what I've heard about them, I'd firebomb them if 
they did... :-)

The local gaming convention which has been around for 6 years had a 
record number of attendees.

By comparison in 1980: 1 Game Store, 2-3 hobby shops that carried 
some gaming materials, but not as much...

Present:  7 Game Stores, no hobby shops..., several of the comic book 
shops here carried RPG stuff...including TNE...  I'd say its about 
as healthy as it was 10 years ago, here.  Its not fair to compare it to the 
late 70's, early 80's at the height of the craze, but I feel its 
pretty healthy...

The games are stuck in specialty retailers for the most part, but 
these specialty retailers seem to be doing a good business...

<comments about UK gaming snipped>

I'm sorry to hear the hobby is in such sorry shape over there...  I 
hope that things rebound at some point...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:43:35 -0800
Subject: RE: PC's killing other PC's

On 16 Sep 96 at 10:52, Bruce Johnson spewed:

>  Well, we were sitting around a table after a particularly harrowing
>  
> adventure (old dragons are not a nice thing to piss off!) when the
> three separate plots to kill her came about...two PC's had poisoned
> her, another three stabbed her, and my character, on his own, had
> decided to shoot her with a crossbow for dessert.

Egad...

Rasputin lives...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:47:05 -0800
Subject: Weird places to game...

Weird places to game over the years...

1:  A friends' dads auto parts business...

2:  A tent on a camping trip in high school...  (By Coleman lantern, 
no less)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: ImperiumGames@ImperiumGames.com
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 01:59:17 -0500
Subject: What is official by Imperium Games

The universe is an ever changing place.  IG does not make appsolutes or
"cannon".  As we have stated before, what we create are guidlines for
Referees to base interesting stories on.  If we create contradicting
information from older Traveller materials, then play what you want.  Of
course, if you want to follow our updated version of Traveller, you are
gaurenteed that we will support it.

Thanx
ken Whitman
President of IG



------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 03:57:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Death, lots of it

RE: Death of PCs: One of the things I've always admired about the Traveller
system is that it can be so deadly; one bullet to an unarmored head and you
could be wookie-meat, pal. Doesn't matter how long your character has been
around, how many skills you've acquired, or how many decorations dot your
chest. Guns kill, and they don't discriminate. This is realistic. Unlike,
say, the time in my AD&D campaign when a theif failed a climbing roll and
fell 120" down a well, into 10" of water, taking 12 dice damage...and
*survived*. Ludicrous.

As for PCs killing each other: oh yeah. Again, in my AD&D game: a party
made the mistake of leaving a cleric behind in a dungeon room with a
Chaotic Evil assassin; the latter decided he'd be appropriately Chaotic
and, well, Evil. Meeting up again with the rest of the party, he innocently
asked, "Where's the cleric?" "Wasn't he with you?" As they'd been out of
the room, nobody suspected that he'd killed the cleric, taken everything he
could carry, and hidden the body. 

Unsurprisingly, the guy playing the cleric was not amused. Fortunately, by
this point in the campaign, everybody belonged to one or another secret
society, many of them rivals (Heh heh. I'd been reading a lot of Robert
Anton Wilson :). The cleric had recently been initiated into an
"inner-circle" cult within his Temple; they could bring valued members back
from the dead under certain circumstances. It was a priceless moment when,
weeks later, the cleric re-appeared amongst the party - just quietly took
his place beside the fire, claiming he'd been "called away" by his Temple.
The assassin was completely spooked, sure the jig was up. But the cleric
followed instructions from his cult and didn't hold a grudge: he was an
Evil cleric, after all. He understood. And he now had a nice threat to hold
over the assassin's head: nobody else at that point in the game knew what
had really happened in the dungeon...

Heck, my old group (back in my home town, London, Ontario), actually
thrived on rivalry between PCs - though usually it was covert and sneaky.
Our PCs would literally carry out bloody feuds, rob each others houses,
desecrate Temples, put salt in the cement of another character's
fortifications... all clandestinely, rarely interfering with the group's
adventuring. One guy (hmm, the assassin, come to think of it) used a
*catapult* to throw bushels of rotting fish onto another PC's wedding! Just
as a gag, mind you. Then there was the Anti-Paladin who, through
disinformation and provocateurs, orchestrated a vicious war between the
Elves and Dwarves, pitting some PCs against each other. Nasty stuff, but
entirely within character.

PCs killing PCs in Traveller, though? Hmmmm... Oh yeah: I played in three
incredible convention games, involving a near-future scenario based on
Harlan Ellison's short story "Silent in Gehenna". In each game, three
separate groups of young radical insurgents would infiltrate a real
Canadian or American university campus on the same night, each group having
a different objective. The cool thing: the groups had no knowledge of each
other's plans, movements, or existence - they were revolutionary cells,
right? The main GM was in a corridor, connected by a *closed-circuit phone
system* to the three sub-GMs, each in a separate room with one of the PC
groups. You can't imagine the chaos... Group 1 leader says: "Okay, we're
dodging across the Quad to the ROTC building." Meanwhile, in the next room,
the sub-GM tells Group 2, "You see six armed men dodging across the quad,
towards your position." Of course Group 2 assumes these to be Security
troops, and opens fire...

God, but "Silence in Gehenna" was a scream. Somebody would be seizing the
campus radio station, while another party kidnapped the Rector, or tried to
rescue the captive student radicals from the Psychology Dept's dungeons.
"Suddenly, for no obvious reason, the ROTC building explodes." "As you
scuttle across the football field, the grass starts to scorch and flame
around you - pulse lasers on top of the dormitory towers." If you completed
your objective and escaped alive, it was a miracle. Since this was just a
convention scenario, and not part of an on-going campaign, the GMs made a
serious attempt to kill off every single PC before the end. By sheer luck I
survived two of these games, but finally bought it in the third. (The
Security team knew we were in the elevator, and we knew they were waiting
for us; "Ding"; the doors opened; everyone fired at once...)

Not that I favour hack-n-slash over real role-playing. Certainly not. It's
just that this thread is calling to mind some fond memories of...uh...
wonderful, mindless mayhem. <sigh>

Glenn (Number Two)
"Violins are, at last, an incomplete centrifuge." -- Tristan Tzarasimov.

- ---------------------------------------------------------
                        Glenn Grant  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
- ---------------------------------------------------------
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."



------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 03:57:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Greetings and thanks

Hello, all,

My name's Glenn (as I've already mentioned on X-boat) and I've been away
from role-playing for over ten years; but I've just been dragged back into
it by some improv-comedian friends who want me to run Traveller again. I've
missed out on MT and TNE; but then again I always thought CT was a truly
great game system - I first played it in '79 and began GMing in '82 with
the Traveller Book.

Don't know if anyone's replied to my query on X-Boat, re: radio CETI in
Traveller, because I'm subscribed to the digest; there hasn't been one in
over a week. What gives?

Thanks muchly to Rob Prior for saving my life (or a good portion of it)
with his Metator software - I was getting desperate at the prospect of
generating all the systems I'll need for my new (non-Imperium) milieu; was
actually considering using DOSware on a PC at work, or sullying my Mac with
SoftAT! <shudder>. Thanks also for answering all my dumb questions - I
guess I'll have to hunt down an old copy of MT now! (RE: bubble help: DOH!
I'm always forgetting to try that.)

While I'm at it: hello to fellow Montrealer Charles Collin; looks like you
work just a few blocks from where I live! (You gotta love a street named
after a guy who poked the brains of conscious people to find out what would
happen! I live on Summerhill.) Perhaps we've run across each other at
Nebula Books? or at ConCept?

Looking forward to gabbling with you all,

Glenn (a different one)
"Refulgence is the fast luge of the inviolate." -- Iclick AsImove
"Competence unlanced is the sin of the violet refugee." -- Isaac S. Burroughs.

- ---------------------------------------------------------
                        Glenn Grant  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
- ---------------------------------------------------------
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."



------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:03:58 +1000
Subject: Re: Traveller Suite

uOn 16 Sep 1996, Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus wrote:

>     The development manager of this software is Jo Grant who can be
> reached at jo_grant@crd.lotus.com. The project manager is Andy Lilly
> who can be reached at A.S.Lilly@nortel.co.uk. This product is brought
> to you by the CORE Traveller development group, in association with
> Imperium Games, and is intended to compliment our range of upcoming
> Traveller supplements.
> 

If you want , I can set up the web pages here in Australia (ar.com.au).
I could also mirror it at Dave Goldens page, as I have been racking my 
brains about what I can do there :-> (that is of cause if Dave gives the OK.

It is great to hear thet Traveller is keeping up with the infomation 
revolution.


>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: Pete Blake <peteb@digicon-egr.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:34:21 +0100
Subject: History and Money

Hi Guys,

A couple of questions:

1) Is there anywhere I can look to get a concise but useful history of
the (traveller) galaxy?  Does anyone have a web page with this on?
I am hoping to start a T4 Mileau 0 campaign soon but a bit of background
history (well I guess that'll be *future* :-) would be useful.

2) A question that has been bugging me - I dont know if this thread has
been covered before, if so can someone point me at the relavant digests.
How do you use money in a traveller campaign.  Does cash exist?  Does
everyone use credit cards? - if so do people walk around with personal
credit card readers?  Is there an imperial currency (i.e. credits?) or
does each planet have their own currency?  Are there both?  What about
exchange rates etc?

Thanks for any help,

Pete "Where the H*** is my T4 hardback?" Blake.

------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 00:08:11 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: Traveller Library Data.

Dear Folks -

Mike Harker asked:
>Do you have this data contained within a single .txt or .doc file ?

Sorry, no. I originally entered it onto the Amiga a few years ago, for use
with the _Hyperbook_ program. To get it to fit in memory, I created each
entry (page) as a new file. In fact, because the program did not have
scrolling text boxes, some long entries ended up being multiple pages... ie.
multiple files.

I copied the files from the Amy to the PC using _Diskmaster_ and the "ms1:"
drive substitution program. Next, I viewed a couple of pages using
_FileViewer_ and check out how _Hyperbook_ encoded its formatting commands.
These I substituted using a Word macro, which also adds all the nice HTML
headings and so on. Now I can just copy over a file, run the macro, and *hey
presto!* a new Library Data file!

If you want another source of data, ask Clay Bush or perhaps look at Peter
L. Berghold's site, where it is available as text files, one per letter of
the alphabet. When I originally loaded my Library Data, I got much of the
text from HIWG disks supplied by Clay. I combed through this text, comparing
it to the original sources (shown abbreviated in brackets at the bottom of
each page; no, I haven't created the Reference page yet!), adding sections,
correcting spelling, and so on. Each current entry should pretty much be
complete now!
________________________________________________________________________
Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson)                         davidjw@pcug.org.au
http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 09:11:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: History and Money

On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Pete Blake wrote:

> 2) A question that has been bugging me - I dont know if this thread has
> been covered before, if so can someone point me at the relavant digests.
> How do you use money in a traveller campaign.  Does cash exist?  Does
> everyone use credit cards? - if so do people walk around with personal
> credit card readers?  Is there an imperial currency (i.e. credits?) or
> does each planet have their own currency?  Are there both?  What about
> exchange rates etc?

The answer to this is covered quite nicely in T4.  Once you get the 
rulebook, you should have the answer to your questions. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 17 Sep 1996 15:35:46 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Deck Plans

>Whoa!  When did that happen?  
>
>I thought T4 was going to use 2m x 2m squares (like TNE), as opposed to
>CT/MT's 1.5m x 1.5m squares..right?

As far as I know, no official decision has been made.  But my copy of T4 has
range bands given in 1.5m increments, not 2m, so I was making the assumption.

Personally, I'm going to stick with 2m, but then I'll also be using my own
_very_ simplified varient of TNE combat rules (for those few times I run a
combat).  I was trying to figure out a way that the rest of you could use my
2m plans with a 1.5m range band system, and just reprinting the grid seemed
the easiest decision.

So, my deck plans will be done to 2m squares.  If enough demand warrants I
will reprint them with a 1.5m grid, by the simple expedient of changing the
grid size.  Anyone who doesn't like this is invited to draw their own plans
:-)

I have virtually finished the complex from the CT adventure "Shadows" (just
the lower level left, which my players never reached).  I did this one in
sections, so the referee could lay it out a room at a time - hereby
preserving the feel of exploration.   Is there any interest in seein these
plans?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #421
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Traveller-digest         Tuesday, 17 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 422

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Contra/Anti Grav @ TL8?
         2. Role-Playing Relatives
         3. Re: How does your game taste?
         4. Re: Listening to Dice
         5. Re: How does your game taste?
         6. RPG Training
         7. Re: Law-abiding PCs (Td V96#417)
         8. Re: Dudley Do-Right
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #414
        10. Re: How does your game taste? 
        11. RE: Re: Deck Plans
        12. RE: Law-abiding PCs (Td V96#417)
        13. Re: Weird places to game...
        14. More T4 newbie questions, somebody please answer!
        15. Seventy patrons short...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:02:22 -0800
Subject: Re: Contra/Anti Grav @ TL8?

On 14 Sep 96 at 23:07, Joseph Heck spewed:

> Did anyone notice that Contrgrav devices are now available at TL8?
> I'm assuming that IG has slightly redefined the tech levels again?

I do remember them saying they were going to tweak tech levels.  
We've already seen it in some places...  No thrust plates until TL 
12, etc...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 17 Sep 1996 15:48:05 GMT
Subject: Role-Playing Relatives

>BTW, I was wondering if anyone else ever role-played with their Dad (or Mom)?

Nope.  But I did play with my grandfather.  

And my students get a kick out of gaming with me.  THAT'S the way to get good
gamers: catch 'em when they're young and give them a game to remember.  When
I was in high school an Anglican priest ran a D&D game for us that he'd
developed in seminary.  Really detailed descriptions, no moralizing over
combat and killing, just clear orders from the Baron to bring back prisoners
so they could have a fair trial and be hung!  Our games were never the same.

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:04:01 -0800
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

On 16 Sep 96 at 11:24, Peter  H. Brenton spewed:

> The classic example was when (trying to test the moral limits of the
> characters) a full busload of Nuns got on the wrong end of a FGMP
> while two kittens, a puppy and a woman pushing a baby carriage
> crossed the street in front of it.

You're a sick man, Pete... :-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 17 Sep 1996 15:53:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Listening to Dice

>Exactly.  The trick then becomes "don't let your player's begin to think
>that you (as a referee) would ever let BLANK happen to one of their
>players, no matter what the die roll."  This can lead to players repeatedly
>"pushing the envelope" as they try to get away with dangerous events--
>knowing that you will not let anything bad happen to them.

Exactly.  I played in a D&D game where the referee did just that - threw lots
of nasties at us, then had a powerful NPC bail us out.  When it was his
miscalculation it was OK, but after a while we realized we were bulletproof,
and the game lost its interest.

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:02:22 -0800
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

On 14 Sep 96 at 21:34, Peter Miller spewed:

> understand the idea behind roleplaying games.  The second player is
> a complete opposite. Unless I'm dealing directly with him (hard
> since he does nothing) he's rolling dice, looking at things in the
> gaming area, or eating\drinking.

How long has this player been playing?  I have 4 people involved in 
our game, only 1 of which has a whole lot of prior experience with 
Traveller in any form, and 1 who had no RPG experience at all... (The 
wife of 1 of the others)...  She tends to have the same problem...

I found 1 trick to almost forced her to get involved.  In our last game 
session, I turned a molehill into a mountain, and abducted 
about 2/3 of the party, forcing the other third to find out where 
they were...including the newbie.  She caught on real quick...  

Sometimes putting them in situations, where they're forced to become 
involved can help...as long as they don't seem completely 
contrived...

> >>b) STORY-TELLING:  A campaign where PCs participate in a story,
> >>pretty-much narrated/controlled by the referee.
> >>
> >
> >This is what generally happens.  If I cannot draw the players along
> >with enticements, I prod them along with hostile police, nasty
> >gangsters, etc. (maybe this is why some of them get to be
> >paranoid?)
> 
> Same here.  Angry\corrupt law enforcement is my favourite approach
> :)

I tend to do things with corporate rivalries, renegade corporate 
officers, rogue Imperial nobles or military, etc...

> Again, same here.  I suggested, in a long running AD&D campaign
> (characters at 9th level) that we begin anew and I was almost
> lynched.  Needless to say, we continued (the campaign ended on a
> messy note quite soon after with the characters being ripped apart
> by gargoyles - this was a coincendence!)

Frankly, I tend to introduce new players with 1 shot things, then 
move on to bigger and better...  I find that once they get used to 
the system a little bit, they think about the sort of character they 
really want to run, and I usually develop a feel for what sort of 
campaign would intrigue them most...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 17 Sep 1996 15:56:37 GMT
Subject: RPG Training

>And as long as a referee doesn't favour one player over another because of
>their role-playing skills (or lack thereof), everyone should be happy.  No
>one should feel left out just because their role-playing skills aren't as
>strong as everyone else's.  The object of the experience is for everyone to
>have fun... not determine who is the best role-player.

Amen.

I my games at school, I insist on the kids play-acting critical scenes. 
Seeing as I am already making a fool of myself doing sily voices, they don't
seem to mind.  We've even done combat this way ("stand up and show me what
your character is doing") when things get confusing.  Lotsa fun!

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:09:56 -0800
Subject: Re: Law-abiding PCs (Td V96#417)

On 16 Sep 96 at 12:17, Derek Wildstar spewed:

Glenn Goffin said:
> > If you can't seduce your straight-laced players into illegal
> > activity, you're not doing your job as a referee. 

Bad generalization.  Sometimes its fun to play the man in the white 
hat, and find legal means to solve a sticky situation...

> That all depends.  I once ran a campaign that was squeeky-clean.  No
> PC comitted any illegal actions for the duration of the campaign. 
> If the referee can't keep things exciting and interesting without
> forcing the characters to break laws, then the referee isn't doing
> his job.

Also a bad generalization...  Sometimes its fun to place a squeaky 
clean character in a situation where a minor wrong must be done to 
create a big right...and watch him/her squirm...

> There are plenty of exciting things that can happen _to_ PCs, even
> if the PCs are paying attention not to break any laws themselves. 
> Examples of campaigns of this type include ones where the PCs are
> active-duty military, or are law-enforcement types.

Definitely true...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 17 Sep 1996 16:09:21 GMT
Subject: Re: Dudley Do-Right

>If you can't seduce your straight-laced players into illegal activity,
>you're not doing your job as a referee.  You might read a few spy novels
>- -- or true spy stories -- for some ideas. 

Actually, I've had several really enjoyable games in which the players abided
by the law, even the pesky local laws.  The physicist in the group (playing
Albert the Commando Accountant: have spreadsheet, will travel) delighted in
finding loopholes for them to slip through.

Personally, I prefer games in which the players are the good guys.  Breaking
speeding limits, yes, murder and mayhem, no.

------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 02:12:24 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #414

Dear Folks -

1.	DROYNE

Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com> asked why the Droyne are not noted as a
major race. My guess is that the fledgling Third Imperium did not know that
the scattered Droyne were, in fact, one race. This knowledge came later.

2.	76 PATRONS

Ensign John said:
>Are you familiar with CT?  If so, pull out that old copy of 76 patrons!
It's full of great adventure leads.

_Lee's Guide to Interstellar Adventure_ is another classic. In fact, the
hunting scenario lead into our Tavonni campaign...

Nice to have 76 adventures (x 3, minimum). Problem is, many of them put the
PC's on the wrong side of the law as an expected matter of course. I believe
that Marc himself made this complaint...

Now, depending on how your players view this, it may or may not be a
problem. However, if you have PC's attempting to be "squeaky clean" in order
to obtain a Letter of Marque, merc company licence, and bounty hunter
permit, they may view this as unproductive. ;-) With some tinkering (such as
putting the players on the side HUNTING the people that the original
storyline was for), it is still possible to use the majority of the scenarios.

...As long as you don't make them misjump EVERY week...

3.	TRADING ROUTES

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>But the prize for a Free Trader is finding a *three* cornered run.

See the Heroni/Fosey/Byret run in Mora subsector, Spinward Marches. It goes
Hi-In/Na-Ni-Po/Ag-Ni-Ri.

4.	SONGWRITING (aka "SO MUCH FOR HUMOUR")

With all this Bzrk talk, the Imperium's going to the dogs...

Anyway, Les Howie said:
>The song has a good beat, can actually be sung by untrained mail chorus with
>beer accompanyment and cries for use as an adventure tie in

I guess you work at the post office, Les?

Rich Ostorero asked:
>I wonder if anyone's ever done a filk about playing Traveller?

You must have missed the one from Steve Bonneville about the Nth
Interstellar War:

I'm Eneri the Eighth, I am,
Eneri the Eighth, I am, I am.
I've been fighting the Terrans next door,
We've been beaten seven times before.
And ev'ry time 'twas an Eneri  (Eneri!)
Never wouldn't do an Enli or a Gam.  (No sir!)
I'm the eighth from Vland that was Eneri,
Eneri the Eighth I am.

...and John Kovalic's offering about the new Aslan pic:

"Miiiiiid-night,
Not a sound from the Aslan,
Just the humming of starships,
Life was beautiful then...."
________________________________________________________________________
Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson)                         davidjw@pcug.org.au
http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:26:01 -0400
Subject: Re: How does your game taste? 

Our game has been running for years, blending SF and fantasy, with 
something like "Dr. Who?" for glue, and has been consistently mission-
based.  The PCs are rescuers.  Very often, they save worlds of 
various sizes (all of human-related history through all the continua
of hyperspace being the largest so far; our first was just one space 
station).  Sometimes, they are called on to get their friends' bacon
out of various fires.  The PCs always answer the call; they sometimes 
grumble, but they always answer.

Recently, they were called in to unsnarl a vast and dangerous political 
machination in the fantasy-steam-punk world of "Castle Falkenstein."
Actually, they were spellnapped, conjured, like djinn from lamps.  My 
PC in particular was very annoyed.  He agreed to help Save the World
(again) but made noises about how he might as well hang out a shingle, 
and, at a later meeting with the conjuror, bargained for some more 
information in return for renouncing claims on the conjuror's liver.
He also asked, once the main mission was completed, if the conjuror 
didn't think his world was big enough and old enough to look after 
itself now.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 96 17:05:37 UT
Subject: RE: Re: Deck Plans

Rob Prior said:

>I have virtually finished the complex from the CT adventure "Shadows" (just
>the lower level left, which my players never reached).  I did this one in
>sections, so the referee could lay it out a room at a time - hereby
>preserving the feel of exploration.   Is there any interest in seein these
>plans?

What I can't get enough of is various building and city layout plans.  I 
thought about trying to make some on templates that could be laid out in any 
orientation and the door would match up, etc.  But I haven't had the time for 
this.  Other than Windows Paint, I dont have any nifty drawing programs.

						---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 96 16:52:28 UT
Subject: RE: Law-abiding PCs (Td V96#417)

Stuart L. Dollar said:

>On 16 Sep 96 at 12:17, Derek Wildstar spewed:
>
>Glenn Goffin said:
>> > If you can't seduce your straight-laced players into illegal
>> > activity, you're not doing your job as a referee. 
>
>Bad generalization.  Sometimes its fun to play the man in the white 
>hat, and find legal means to solve a sticky situation...
>
>> That all depends.  I once ran a campaign that was squeeky-clean.  No
>> PC comitted any illegal actions for the duration of the campaign. 
>> If the referee can't keep things exciting and interesting without
>> forcing the characters to break laws, then the referee isn't doing
>> his job.
>
>Also a bad generalization...  Sometimes its fun to place a squeaky 
>clean character in a situation where a minor wrong must be done to 
>create a big right...and watch him/her squirm...
>
>> There are plenty of exciting things that can happen _to_ PCs, even
>> if the PCs are paying attention not to break any laws themselves. 
>> Examples of campaigns of this type include ones where the PCs are
>> active-duty military, or are law-enforcement types.
>
>Definitely true...

As a referee, it was refreshing for me to watch a player attempt to accomplish 
his goals without stealing a starship, or breaking and entering.  Most of the 
time in my experience, players break laws for convienience sake, but rarely do 
I see any of the well executed plans that are so fun to watch in the movies.

In other words, the breaking of laws is for convieniece only -- to take a 
shortcut to reach a goal.  It's these kind of law-breakers that get caught 
(either by the authorities or by other bad guys).  Now what would really 
entertain me is to see some PCs design an elaborate scheme -- breaking laws or 
not.  

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Matt Lewis" <lewis@griffin.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:14:20 +0100
Subject: Re: Weird places to game...

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> Weird places to game over the years...
> 
> 1:  A friends' dads auto parts business...
> 
> 2:  A tent on a camping trip in high school...  (By Coleman lantern, 
> no less)
 
The weirdest place I've ever gamed is the Natural History Museum in London. 
Those dinosaur skeletons are spooky.

- -------------------------------------
Matt Lewis mailto:lewis@griffin.co.uk
http://www.griffin.co.uk/users/lewis/

------------------------------

From: "Matt Lewis" <lewis@griffin.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:14:20 +0100
Subject: More T4 newbie questions, somebody please answer!

A few more questions...

When changing careers, can a character apply to one he has already served 
in, and can he apply to one he has been previously turned down from at an 
earlier date?

When mustering out, do all terms served count, or only those served in the 
current career?

When mustering out benefits include the yacht or lab ship, does the 
character have to pay for them, like the free trader, or does he get it 
free, like the scout?

All help appreciated.

- -------------------------------------
Matt Lewis mailto:lewis@griffin.co.uk
http://www.griffin.co.uk/users/lewis/


------------------------------

From: brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 17:57:41 +0000
Subject: Seventy patrons short...

Here's my first post in months (first time in months I've actually 
caught up with the discussion on the TML). I won't say 'I'm back'
because I may quickly disappear under the avalanche of posts again.

I don't have the original 76 patrons, so for all I know some of these 
ideas have been done before. Also, the format might not be an exact 
copy of the original, the equipment/skills required are tricky as I 
can think of so many ways to resolve most of these situations.

No statistics, as I'm still waiting for Traveller4 to get to 
Virgin Megastores in the UK.  

This stuff has not been proof-read or reality-checked...
- -----------
Ecologist

For any number of players.
Required skills: Hunting/survival skills
Required equipment: none

Players=92 information:
While on a planet with indigenous life and a large population, the
players are approached by a short thin man wearing a safari vest. The
man identifies himself as a member of an ecological protection group.
He explains that pressures from the increasing population of the world
have severely damaged some habitats, threatening many of the less
adaptable species native to those habitats. The numbers of some
species have declined to the point where they are threatened with
extinction, the patron explains, and his group is attempting to set up
a captive breeding program for the 'spiny rat=92. He offers a reward of
Cr10,000 for each specimen that the players manage to collect
undamaged.

Referee=92s information
1. The situation is as presented above. The spiny rat is a small
squirrel like creature, covered in inch long spines. It moves
extremely quickly, and tracking and capturing the creature will be
difficult, perhaps requiring a local guide to assist the players.
Trying to catch one will be made more difficult by the creatures=92
metabolism, which renders tranquillisers ineffective. 

2. The situation is as presented above, however in this case, the
=91rat=92 is closer in size to a large dog, and is a formidable predator.
Tracking the creature down may be easier, but it will be far more
dangerous to capture and return to the ecologist. The players may
discover that the local name for the rat translates as =91sleep spine=92,
for the spines of this version of the =91rat=92 are capable of injecting a
powerful, perhaps fatal paralysing agent.

3. The creature is one of the two alternatives above,  but the
ecologist, while sincere in his intent, has not got permission from
the government to engage in a captive breeding program. Once the
creature has been recovered, the ecologist will offer the players a
further Cr10,000 for assistance in smuggling the animal off planet.

4. The =91ecologist=92 is actually a hunter trying to recruit assistance
in hunting down the animal, which has been discovered by a
pharmaceuticals megacorporation to contain a powerful concentrated
natural anagathic. The actual value of each specimen is closer to
Cr250,000. Furthermore, because the animal is endangered, the hunting
is strictly illegal.

5. The =91ecologist=92 is actually a smuggler, trying to obtain animals to
sell as pets on other worlds. This trade in the animals is the reason
for their rarity, rather than any major habitat disruption. The trade
is illegal, and the local law enforcement will not take kindly to the
players getting involved. A real ecologist might offer money to rescue
the animals.

6. The creature is protected by a law banning forestry in areas where
it is found. A logging operation owning an area of the =91rat=92 habitat
has been deliberately eliminating the rats so that it can continue
logging. The players may encounter the hunters of the rat while they
themselves are tracking it, or agents of the company might try to stop
the players returning with the specimen. 

- ---------------
Businessman

For any number of players
Required skills:demolitions
Required equipment:none
Players=92 information:
A businessman approaches the characters while they are in a seedy area
of the spaceport. He explains that he is a representative of an
entertainment company which was once extremely successful on the
world, but has since been stifled by a larger firm, which has
developed a virtual monopoly through aggressive marketing. The
businessman offers the players Cr100,000 to destroy several warehouses
containing stockpiles of the company=92s games, the disruption in supply
allowing other companies back into the picture.

Referee=92s information
1. The situation is as presented above. The warehouses are on the edge
of town and have only a couple of night watchmen protecting them.

2. The warehouses are heavily guarded. A dozen security men with laser
pistols and light intensifiers patrol at night.

3. The warehouse is in the middle of a densely populated area, which
would make incendiaries and explosives likely to cause severe civilian
casualties. An alternative means to destroy the stock must be employed
(unless the players don=92t believe in bad karma), eg. water pipes used
to flood the warehouse, or EM pulses to damage electronic media,
depending on the world=92s TL.

4. The warehouses actually contain vital medical supplies, the
=91businessman=92 is an agent of an anti-government group. The players
once they find out may be left trying to leave quickly, or to
apprehend the agent.

5. The =91businessman=92 actually works for the monopoly, and is setting
the players up.  When captured they will incriminate a small but
growing rival company. Court damages to the monopoly would put the
rival out of business.

- ------------------------
Government Official

Suitable for any number of players
Required skills: Scientific/research
Required equipment : none

Players=92 information
As the players are walking through a city the tree next to the bursts
spontaneously into flames, with no discernible cause. The fire
presents no great hazard, but this is just another example of the
weirdness of this town. The papers have been full of other
strangeness, fountains freezing, objects levitating, even a woman
appearing from nowhere in the middle of a shop, with no knowledge of
how she got there. The government contacts the players and offers a
reward of Cr35,000 for an explanation of the strange happenings.

Referee=92s information
1. A new city reservoir has recently opened in a forest some distance
from town. A small flower growing on the bank of the reservoir has
been releasing pollen into the water. This pollen acts as an extremely
powerful psionic drug. The strange happenings are a result of latent
psionics in the population being temporarily activated by the pollen.
People have no conscious control of these powers, and the pollen in
fact causes trained psionics to loose control of their power also.

2. A pro-psionic group has drugged the water supply in some small
areas with a chemical which has a similar affect to the pollen in 1.
above. They intend to demonstrate the psionic potential which is
present in a significant minority of the population in hopes of
increasing acceptance.

3. The strange happenings are hallucinations, induced by spores
released from a microscopic fungus which has begun to colonise the
city, having been unknowingly eradicated decades/centuries ago from
the city by the construction work involved in setting up the city,
which brought in raw materials which had not been contaminated with
the fungus.

4. A prankster equipped with an advanced holographic projector has
been creating the illusion of the strangeness which has been
occurring.

- ---------------------------
Mercenary commander

Suitable for any number of players
Skills required: medical
Equipment required: none

Players=92 information
While on a mercenary tour of duty the players notice an increasing
number of friendly troops have been hospitalised by a fever, which is
beginning to cause fatalities despite the medical care available. The
mercenary commander offers the players a Cr10,000 bonus to investigate
the cause of the illness, afraid that it will spread from the local
troops to the mercenary unit. The commander explains that he suspects
that the enemy has released some kind of biological weapon.

Referee=92s information
1. The situation is as presented above. The players will need to
infiltrate the enemy base. An antidote is available.

2. The enemy know nothing of the biological weapon. The weapon was in
reality released by the command of the friendly forces, hoping that by
appalling the civilian supporters of the enemy they could force the
enemy to cease their attack.

3. The enemy are also suffering from the same illness, which has been
released by a third faction, not involved in the fighting and just
wanting to end the conflict before it spills over into their
territory.

4. The troops fighting for the same side as the players are doing so
with some guilt, as the regime they are defending is both extremely
cruel and inept. The illness was produced by a staff doctor working
for the friendly forces, who was a research student before
conscription. It is contracted willingly by troops who don=92t want to
fight. The =91fatalities=92 are actually defections covered up by the
medical staff.

- -----------
Chef

Suitable for any number of players
Skills required: Observation, steward, weapons
Equipment required: Light weaponry

Player=92s information:
The players are offered work as bodyguards protecting a celebrity chef
at a major cooking competition. The competition attracts competitors
from worlds all along the main, the final contest being held in the
starport at the subsector capital. The tables and kitchens are a riot
of colour and scent, but the players may quickly find out that it is
better not to know what is in some of the food. The players are
offered Cr10,000 for the work

1. As the first judge tastes the food prepared by the patron he cries
out in pain, falling over unconscious in front of a crowd of suddenly
silent onlookers before being rushed to hospital where he remains ill
for several days. The food has been poisoned by a rival chef.  The
players need to clear the chef of any blame.

2. As in 1. above, but the chef, although claiming that he has been
framed, is actually an assassin sent to kill a government figure who
was one of the judges. His victim dies in hospital shortly afterwards
unless the players manage to unravel the assassin=92s cover and find the
antitoxin extremely quickly.

3. As in 1 above, but the actual cause of the illness was an allergy.
Accusations and counter accusations will still be made.

4. An incompatibility in body chemistry leads to the judge becoming
psychotic when he tastes the food. This situation can be made more
interesting with an Aslan judge and a ban on weapons in the contest
hall.

5. The freighter carrying the ingredients required by the chef fails
to arrive. The chef gives the players responsibility for tracking down
the ingredients, or convincing substitutes with only hours before the
contest.

6. The chef falls ill before the contest. As the competition is a
matter of great planetary pride for his people he gives the players
his recipe book and tells them that the player with most steward
experience must compete in his place. 

- ----------------
Journalist

For any number of players
Skills required: none
Equipment required: image recorder

The players are approached by a journalist working for one of the
major news publications on the planet. He offers Cr30,000 for pictures
of a particular sports celebrity on holiday. The celebrity is on
holiday on the moon of the mainworld.

1. The situation is as presented above. The players may get chased by
hotel security, who will attempt to get the camera, but this should
not degenerate into a seriously dangerous situation.

2. Contrary to his public image, the celebrity is actually vicious and
paranoid. He will have personal security guards who are likely to be
extremely brutal in protecting his privacy.

3. The hotel complex is very close to a restricted military
installation. The =91journalist=92 is actually an intelligence agent who
is more interested in images of this installation which are captured
in the background of the photos. Military guards may notice the
players and get involved.

4. As in 1., 2. or 3. above, but the players are being used as a
diversion, while the real photographers take the photos. This will
increase the chance of encountering guards as the true photographers
will tip off security.

I reserve rights on this, but if people want to use this 
on their web pages, then sure, go ahead. In a couple of weeks I'll 
probably get round to putting up pages of my own which will 
have this and a lot of other adventure material. 

- --
Brendan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #422
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Traveller-digest         Tuesday, 17 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 423

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Weird places to game...
         2. Re: RPG Training
         3. The Marvelous Mutating Core Subsector
         4. Re: Re: Deck Plans -Reply
         5. RE: History and Money
         6. RE: More T4 newbie questions, somebody please answer!
         7. [Fwd: Re: Deck Plans Rights]
         8. Re: What is official by Imperium Games
         9. Re: How does your game taste?
        10. Re: Seventy patrons short...
        11. Re: Weird places to game...
        12. Re: PC's Killing PC's
        13. Re: PC Deaths
        14. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #414
        15. Re: PCcide
        16. RPG training
        17. 4-Sale..Odds & Ends..
        18. More TRAVELLER Songs
        19. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #422
        20. Re:  Traveller-digest V1996 #422

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:21:17 GMT
Subject: Re: Weird places to game...

On Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:47:05 -0800, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> Weird places to game over the years...

On a car trip from Vancouver to the McDonald's in Squamish (about 40
minutes north of town) along the winding sea-to-sky highway on a dark and
stormy night while chasing a lightning storm (we were sitting at home in
Vancouver and said, "cool storm, let's follow it and maybe grab some Big
Macs an' stuff").  Had to use the dome light to roll dice and my character
functioned more like an NPC due to the fact that I was driving at the time.


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:28:11 GMT
Subject: Re: RPG Training

On 17 Sep 1996 15:56:37 GMT, Rob Prior wrote:

> >And as long as a referee doesn't favour one player over another because of
> >their role-playing skills (or lack thereof), everyone should be happy.  No
> >one should feel left out just because their role-playing skills aren't as
> >strong as everyone else's.  The object of the experience is for everyone to
> >have fun... not determine who is the best role-player.
> 
> Amen.
> 
> I my games at school, I insist on the kids play-acting critical scenes. 
> Seeing as I am already making a fool of myself doing sily voices, they don't
> seem to mind.  We've even done combat this way ("stand up and show me what
> your character is doing") when things get confusing.  Lotsa fun!
> 
Just make sure that the 'acting skill' of the people involved doesn't play
a big part in determining their chances for success (or failure)...
otherwise, I'd hate to role-play with the likes of Marlin Brando or Robert
DeNiro  :-)



------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 17 Sep 96 10:28:35 MS
Subject: The Marvelous Mutating Core Subsector

So, I'm looking at my Atlas of the Imperium credits page, and sure enough, 
right here is the name Marc Miller.  And DGP is nowhere to be found.

I'm glad Marc is back, and I'm pleased with pretty much everything I've seen 
thus far (excepting Range Bands and a poor Aslan picture).  However, I have a 
VERY uncomfortable feeling about this.  This is NOT support for previous 
versions of Traveller.  A cynic would describe this as a specific effort to 
force people to discard a wealth of _GDW_ created background and buy a NEW 
Atlas of the Imperium (with a $15-$20 pricetag).    Invalidating the 
DGP-generated sectors makes sense to me, but arbitrarily moving around actual 
stars does not.

As for Canon - I honestly don't give a rat's ass about it.  I do care about the 
sizable investment in OFFICIAL GDW TRAVELLER MATERIAL that I have, which I 
would prefer not be lightly brushed aside.  Invalidating background material 
from second-source publishers like DGP might be slightly annoying, but overall 
is not a bad thing.  A new system for vehicles and starships is not a bad 
thing.  A new character generation system (very reminiscent of a previous one, 
in fact) is also not a bad thing.  Rewriting the historical premises would be a 
bad thing, and Marc Miller & Co have very carefully not done that.  However, 
just tossing out the stuff that was done by GDW under Marc Miller's masthead 
and direction is a BAD THING.  It is just opening the door to the same sort of 
frustrations that forced the TML to split into two lists.

Now, before I am accused of being "Joe Inflexible," I want to remind everyone 
that I was around here when TNE came out, and I was one of the ones that LIKED 
it.  While GDW had changed several key premises, I felt they had taken a game I 
loved (CT) and added some very real improvements to it.  They did not just 
randomly change important historical contexts like the name of the Emperor in 
1101 or the Imperial symbol or THE LOCATIONS OF STARS.  I am very flexible when 
it comes to changes in game mechanics, and I'm very happy with tthe potential 
of some of these cool new Mileus.  I just feel that this particular issue is 
not an attempt to fix something, but an attempt to sell something.  I'm more 
than willing to pour plenty of consumer dollars into the Imperium Games coffer, 
but I want to do that by buying NEW material, not a needless rework of 
something that was just fine as it was.  We're not talking about statistical 
goofiness in UPPs here; we talking about a map showing WHERE THE STARS ARE.

Yes, I realize I can use the old maps.  Hell, I can even make up my own maps.  
This is fine, but the problem is that it should not be necessary.  To 
paraphrase a movie I once saw, "Are you saying stars migrate?"

Peevishly Yours
Steven Charlton
President, Imperial Stellar Migration Society

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:39:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: Deck Plans -Reply

>I have virtually finished the complex from the CT adventure "Shadows"
>(just the lower level left, which my players never reached).  I did this
>one in sections, so the referee could lay it out a room at a time - hereby
>preserving the feel of exploration.   Is there any interest in seein these
>plans?

Yes!!


Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:37:52 -0700
Subject: RE: History and Money

Pete asked

2) A question that has been bugging me - I dont know if this thread has
been covered before, if so can someone point me at the relavant digests.
How do you use money in a traveller campaign.  Does cash exist?  Does
everyone use credit cards? - if so do people walk around with personal
credit card readers?  Is there an imperial currency (i.e. credits?) or
does each planet have their own currency?  Are there both?  What about
exchange rates etc?

Joe responded

The answer to this is covered quite nicely in T4.  Once you get the=20
rulebook, you should have the answer to your questions.

Mark continues

I don't think the subject is covered "quite nicely in T4."
T4 offers a better examination of the subject than other versions of =
Traveller, true, but I do not think that any "canon" exists for money in =
Traveller.

Every campaign I have participated in or ran has handled that symbolic =
store of value called money differently. Each region of space, world and =
sometimes subplanetary government handles these things differently in my =
current campaign.

Pete (or others) if you want to discuss specific possibilities I'm game.

------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:42:54 -0700
Subject: RE: More T4 newbie questions, somebody please answer!

Matt asks

When changing careers, can a character apply to one he has already served in?
[YES]
and can he apply to one he has been previously turned down from at an 
earlier date?
[YES]
When mustering out, do all terms served count, or only those served in the 
current career?
[MUSTER FROM EACH AS YOU GO]
When mustering out benefits include the yacht or lab ship, does the 
character have to pay for them, like the free trader, or does he get it 
free, like the scout?
[ONLY THE SCOUT SHIP IS SPECIALLY TREATED]


------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:43:03 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Deck Plans Rights]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- --------------775355B1D10
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Hi, all!

A week or two back, I posted a question asking about posting deckplans
for ships previously published by GDW on the web.  Someone (sorry, I
forget who :-/ ) very sensibly suggested that I contact IG.  I emailed
IG and got a response from MM, which I post here with his permission.

My request:
> Subject: 
>             Deckplan Copyrights
>        Date: 
>             Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:54:50 -0500
>        From: 
>             "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
> Organization: 
>             University of Missouri-Rolla
>          To: 
>             ImperiumGames@ImperiumGames.com
> 
> 
> Is it possible to get permission to post deckplans based on those from
> GDW publications (such as CT Supplements and Adventures) on my web page?
> 
> Full recognition will of course be given.
> 
> Thanks,
>         Matt McL




CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> If you use a deck plan (scanned from a book or whatever), you should
> acknowledge the source of the plan, the copyright, and the trademark,
> something like this:
> 
> Type S Scout originally appeared in Traders & Gunboats, GDW, 198X. Some of
> the materials on this page are copyright 198X-1996 Far Future Enterprises.
> Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises.
> 
> The purpose is to protect the property (so no one can later come back and say
> that FFE acknowledged it was in the public domain because we did not pursue
> those who didn't acknowledge the copyright, trademark, etc).
> 
> I would think that putting a deck plan in a web page comes under "Fair Use."
> As opposed to selling things, or copying rules verbatim and handing them out
> free.
> 
> Marc Miller

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From: CardSharks@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 05:53:33 -0400
Message-ID: <960912055331_476990195@emout15.mail.aol.com>
To: mkm@umr.edu
Subject: Re: Deck Plans Rights

If you use a deck plan (scanned from a book or whatever), you should
acknowledge the source of the plan, the copyright, and the trademark,
something like this:

Type S Scout originally appeared in Traders & Gunboats, GDW, 198X. Some of
the materials on this page are copyright 198X-1996 Far Future Enterprises.
Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises.

The purpose is to protect the property (so no one can later come back and say
that FFE acknowledged it was in the public domain because we did not pursue
those who didn't acknowledge the copyright, trademark, etc).

I would think that putting a deck plan in a web page comes under "Fair Use."
As opposed to selling things, or copying rules verbatim and handing them out
free.

Marc Miller


- --------------775355B1D10--


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:54:01 -0500
Subject: Re: What is official by Imperium Games

ImperiumGames@ImperiumGames.com spake the following:
>
>The universe is an ever changing place.  IG does not make appsolutes or
>"cannon".  As we have stated before, what we create are guidlines for
>Referees to base interesting stories on.  If we create contradicting
>information from older Traveller materials, then play what you want.  Of
>course, if you want to follow our updated version of Traveller, you are
>gaurenteed that we will support it.
>
>Thanx
>ken Whitman
>President of IG
>

No, Ken, thank you for keeping us up to date and answering as many questions
as you are able.  We (Traveller Fans) are not known for our leniency towards
those who produce the game, but so far I think you guys have done a
Mahvelous Job.

Thanks for "Keeping the Flame!"


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:54:04 -0500
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

Here's what "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> had to say:
>
>On 16 Sep 96 at 11:24, Peter  H. Brenton spewed:
>
>> The classic example was when (trying to test the moral limits of the
>> characters) a full busload of Nuns got on the wrong end of a FGMP
>> while two kittens, a puppy and a woman pushing a baby carriage
>> crossed the street in front of it.
>
>You're a sick man, Pete... :-)
>
>Stu

Pete, don't feel bad, in reality, Stu's probably just trying to figure out
how he could get away with this in one of his games.  :)


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:54:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Seventy patrons short...

brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk added to our discussion thusly:
>
>Here's my first post in months (first time in months I've actually 
>caught up with the discussion on the TML). I won't say 'I'm back'
>because I may quickly disappear under the avalanche of posts again.
>
>I don't have the original 76 patrons, so for all I know some of these 
>ideas have been done before. Also, the format might not be an exact 
>copy of the original, the equipment/skills required are tricky as I 
>can think of so many ways to resolve most of these situations.
>

I don't have the original 76 partons either, but I realy like this format.
Does anyone know where I could get a copy of the original?


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:53:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Weird places to game...

Thus spake "Matt Lewis" <lewis@griffin.co.uk>:
>
>Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
>
>> Weird places to game over the years...
>> 
>> 1:  A friends' dads auto parts business...
>> 
>> 2:  A tent on a camping trip in high school...  (By Coleman lantern, 
>> no less)
> 
>The weirdest place I've ever gamed is the Natural History Museum in London. 
>Those dinosaur skeletons are spooky.

When I first got out of college, the first job I got was as a night manager
a BK Resteraunt.  I ran one of the TNE main book campaign's (Gerrard) after
work with some of my crew and one of the other managers.  This setting was
actually ideal, because I was able to sit in a booth with all my books and
papers scattered aroung me and everyone else was at tables too far away to
see.  :)


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:56:08 -0700
Subject: Re: PC's Killing PC's

Tom Opgenorth wrote:
> 
> I Gm'd on game of Twilight:2000, where the Officer in Command was a bit
> of a overbearing jerk.  So, one night while they were carrying out a raid
> on a village, the party changed the fire-plan for the FN-MAG's to sweep
> the area that the O.C. would be assaulting, without informing the O.C.  Plus
> the non-machinegunner characters experienced problems getting off the start
> line, so the O.C. ending up going in alone.  The MG's chewed him up to
> within a inch of his life, and the local denizens finished him off in a
> most brutal fashion.

Nice bit of planning, and far more elegant than the standard Vietnam-era American 
approach to the problem: rolling a frag grenade into the officer's bedroom. They called 
it "fragging."

> 
> I didn't do anything about it, because it seemed like a perfectly natural
> thing to do to an officer, especially a crazy, aristocratic, twit.  Lord
> knows I haved wanted to do it on several occasions.  Besides, the rest of
> the party went to great efforts to conceal their plan, so that the player
> in question would think that it was a screw-up, not a plan.

I congradulate the party's elegance on dealing with this guy.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:13:03 -0700
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> 
> Whoa! It's getting *deep* in here. <g>

Hmmm . . . A magazine title is coming to mind: "Deep Traveller: The Journal for 
Spiritually-Aware Citizens of the Imperium"  ;)
> 
> I don't believe in reincarnation or karma.  I'm monotheist and in the games
> I GM guess who's Ghod?  Think old testement!  <g> Miracles *do* happen and
> so does divine retribution, and the universe is *not* random..it just seems
> that way.  Ramdomizers are useful, but they shouldn't *determine* the game.

{Guru Voice}: There are a plethora of paths . . . Your model is another good one. Now 
wait a minute, what's the Ghod doing with those D6s . . . okay, it's only a game :)

> 
> ...but I *never* tell the players that, just let them figure it out like
> real life. ;->

Spiritual development is _never_ complete:)
> --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:24:38 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #414

David Jaques-Watson wrote:
<<deletia>>
> 
> 4.      SONGWRITING (aka "SO MUCH FOR HUMOUR")
> 
> With all this Bzrk talk, the Imperium's going to the dogs...

Isn't His Grace's Bzrk worse than his bite?

> 
> Anyway, Les Howie said:
> >The song has a good beat, can actually be sung by untrained mail chorus with
> >beer accompanyment and cries for use as an adventure tie in
> 
> I guess you work at the post office, Les?
> 
> Rich Ostorero asked:
> >I wonder if anyone's ever done a filk about playing Traveller?
> 
> You must have missed the one from Steve Bonneville about the Nth
> Interstellar War:
> 
> I'm Eneri the Eighth, I am,
> Eneri the Eighth, I am, I am.
> I've been fighting the Terrans next door,
> We've been beaten seven times before.
> And ev'ry time 'twas an Eneri  (Eneri!)
> Never wouldn't do an Enli or a Gam.  (No sir!)
> I'm the eighth from Vland that was Eneri,
> Eneri the Eighth I am.
> 
> ...and John Kovalic's offering about the new Aslan pic:
> 
> "Miiiiiid-night,
> Not a sound from the Aslan,
> Just the humming of starships,
> Life was beautiful then...."

ROFLMAO!!!  Thanks for the lyrics!

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:05:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: PCcide

> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> >Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?  
> >
> >Have you ever done it yourself?  
> >
> >As a GM would you let it happen, and how would you handle the
> >aftermath?  Divine retribution? <g>

One campaign had two players whose friendship had degenerated over time
into serious anger.  There were others involve, almost all of whom were
also players. 

It became a contest to see how long I could *keep* them from killing each
other off.  Finally one of the characters (who had missed a few sanity
rolls previously) walked into the missile magazine with a FGMP and let
loose.

At least they both went. 

Of course, they were right at each other when we started a D&D campaign a
week later.
  

Never let players who hate each other play in the same game, especially if
that hatred is smouldering just under expressed levels.

Pete


------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 17:24:18 -0500
Subject: RPG training

>I my games at school, I insist on the kids play-acting critical scenes. 
>Seeing as I am already making a fool of myself doing sily voices, they don't
>seem to mind.  We've even done combat this way ("stand up and show me what
>your character is doing") when things get confusing.  Lotsa fun!

  Tons-o-fun doing this with my group!  We got a couple of kenpoists, a SCA
heavy list fighter, two sabre fencers, multiple mil-history buffs, and
military brats with reasonable firearm experince.

  Sometimes the ref has to tone things down a bit. :-) "Yes, I know that
*you* know that, but let me see that character sheet...Your character has
no brawling skill.  Please stand still while the other fellow pummels you."

  Another time was figuring out how much cover you get from a prone body.
"Ok Charles, go over there about 20 meters and lie down.  Jim, go just past
him and lie down prone next to him.  See!  The guy in back would get
partial cover!"


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love."
 - Turkish Proverb   		http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Sanders  <kalyn@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:58:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: 4-Sale..Odds & Ends..

I've a few things for sale. Thought I would list them here first before I 
post them to usenet.

Azhanti High Lightning - $12
(Punched, missing one counter (out of 240). Also missing Supplement #5.)

The Traveller Adventure - $3
(Some slight water damage to cover.)

Solomani: Alien Module #6 - $10
(Near mint condotion.)

MegaTraveller Rebellion Sourcebook - $7
(Good condition.)

Group One:

Sapies - $2
Marinagua - $2
Lomodo IV - $2
Geptorem - $2


Judges Guild:

Waspwinter - $2


Postage is $3 for first item, .50 for each additiional item.

Paul
kalyn@netcom.com


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:07:08 -0400
Subject: More TRAVELLER Songs

Rich Ostorero asked:
>I wonder if anyone's ever done a filk about playing Traveller?

How about this?

THE HIVER TECHNICAL ACADEMY FIGHT SONG  By David Nelson and Allen Shock

Hiver Technical Academy
We manipulate our way to victory
Hiver Technical Academy
We fumigate out larvae reg'larly
When the game is on the line
And the clock is ticking 'way
The Ithklur fight and the Hivers might
If they're far enough away
Hiver Technical Academy
We manipulate our way to VICTORY!

This actually has music, too, but I don't know how to comunicate that over
the list!
(it would probably work with any typical college fight song march)
It's amazing how silly some people can get while playing TRAVELLER...

                                Allen


------------------------------

From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:54:49 -0400
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #422

>In other words, the breaking of laws is for convieniece only -- to take a 
>shortcut to reach a goal.  It's these kind of law-breakers that get caught 
>(either by the authorities or by other bad guys).  Now what would really 
>entertain me is to see some PCs design an elaborate scheme -- breaking 
>laws or 
>not.  

Boyd, _PLEASE_ refrain from asking things like this, because you only 
serve to encourage at least one of my players who lurks on this list.  
It's bad enough when they're winging it; elaborate plans send me 
running for Tylenol (preferably the almond-flavoured variety. . .).

------------------------------

From: kstclair@cie-2.uoregon.edu (Kelly St. Clair)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 96 16:24:25 PDT
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1996 #422

>Rich Ostorero asked:
>>I wonder if anyone's ever done a filk about playing Traveller?
>
>You must have missed the one from Steve Bonneville about the Nth
>Interstellar War:

["Eneri the Eighth" mercifully snipped]

I think we had this character in the TML PBeM, years ago... as I recall,
  he was put out of OUR misery early on when his player went inactive.
  That wouldn't have been you, Steve?

Then there's the filk I came up with shortly after TNE came out:

"Deyo!  Deyyyyo...
 Virus come and it wrecka my home
 Deyo!  Deyyyyo...
 Virus come and it wrecka my home.

 Lucan an Strephon and Dulinor, ho!
 Virus come and it wrecka my home
 Civil war 'cross the Imperium, ho!
 Virus come and it wrecka my home.

 Hey, Mister Hiver mon,
 Tell me what to do now
 Virus come and it wrecka my home
 ..."

 and so on.

Another idea I've had recently, though not exactly a filk, is a
  video montage of the Rebellion set to "Land of Confusion" by
  Phil Collins/Genesis:

"I must have dreamed a thousand dreams
 Been haunted by a million screams
 But I can hear the marching feet
 They're moving into the street

 Now did you hear the news today?
 They say the danger's gone away
 But I can see the fires still alight
 They're burnin' into the night..."


- ------------------------
Kelly St.Clair
kstclair@cie-2.uoregon.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #423
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Traveller-digest         Tuesday, 17 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 424

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: How does your game taste?
         2. Re: More T4 newbie questions, somebody please answer!
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #419
         4. Con Scenario
         5. T4 Scouts
         6. USING BRILLIANT LANCES with T4
         7. Re: Ship Illustrations (was Bring Back Blair!)
         8. CANON should be a 4 letter word...(LONG)
         9. Economics in T4...
        10. Re: T4 Scouts
        11. Re: RPG Training
        12. Proper Address
        13. Proper Address
        14. Re: Weird places to game...
        15. Re: Traveller Filks
        16. Traveller Filk
        17. Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word...(LONG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:32:08 -0800
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

On 17 Sep 96 at 15:54, Paul Walker spewed:

> Pete, don't feel bad, in reality, Stu's probably just trying to
> figure out how he could get away with this in one of his games.  :)

Naw...just wishing he'd thought of it first...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:41:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: More T4 newbie questions, somebody please answer!

On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Matt Lewis wrote:

> When mustering out benefits include the yacht or lab ship, does the 
> character have to pay for them, like the free trader, or does he get it 
> free, like the scout?

Here's my thought on this one:

The Scout is "free" because the ship remains the property of the 
Imperium, and the ship as well as the character can be called back into 
service when needed.  This is "canon."

The Free Trader isn't free, because the character actually owns the ship 
(well, he owns the mortgage anyway[G]).  

So, the other two should be like the Free Trader, as I assume they are 
owned by the characters who receive them.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 07:44:00 +1300
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #419

> >Another trick as a last resort (this was kept as plan B by my players)is
> >to by-pass the integrity controls on an outer airlock hatch and
> >explosively decompress a section of the ship, preferably a section of
> >the ship with a large airlockway (say cargo) and few obstacles to the
> >rapid escape of the atmosphere bubble.
> 
> Actually, the mian problem with that one (as I understand it from reading
> this list) is that decompression simply isn't that powerful a force,
> compared to the vessel's mass and momentum.
>

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:36:59 +0000 ()
Subject: Con Scenario

Hy Folks,

	today I got a guy on phone who wanted a refree for a local
	Con next saturday. Now I'm thinking about what to play ;-)

	Ok I can strip one of my TNE scenarios that it fit into
	4-6 hours, but perhaps dose somebody here knew a more
	"modern" M0 scenario to master (I dont have the rules,
	but shurly I can produce the fealing)

	So if anybody has a !SHORT! scenario for inexperinced
	travellers (but experienced RPGers) suitable for a
	game Com featuring M3, ready on disk, mail it to me ;-)

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Lan Kelly <CyberWere@ConnectI.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:33:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4 Scouts

I finally was able to get my hands on a paperback T4. Yeah!  Although I've
not gone throught is completely I really like what I see.
But as I start to create my first character I notice that the Imperium must
really have it in for scouts, my favorite career BTW.  It seems that they
are not rewarded for long service and even the Traveller Aid Society has
forsaken them.  That is unless I'm missing something, wouldn't be the first
time :-)   I'm not too sure that an extra skill a term is balanced by no
pension.  Does anyone know the historical background and or reasoning for
not giving the IISS retirees a pension?
Also troubling is fact that a scout cannot be rewarded a TAS membership.
The premiss is that the TAS awards membership based upon heroism or
extraordinary service. You would think that heroism or extraordinary service
difines the Scout Service and the TAS would want people experienced in
exploration and survey.  Any thought on this subject?
LAN

Lan Kelly       CyberWere@ ConnectI.com      San Antonio, Texas
***********
"Diplomats are just as essential in starting a war as soldiers are in
finishing it."
Will Rogers


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:08:02 -0400
Subject: USING BRILLIANT LANCES with T4

Here's some ideas I came up with to allow the use of the BRILLIANT LANCES
boardgame with the new task system from T4.

NPC STATS       ATTRIBUTES      SKILL LEVELS
Elite                   9               4+
Veteran                 8               3
Experienced             7               2
Novice                  7 or less       1

T4 TASKS        TNE TASKS       RANGE
Easy            Easy            
Average         Average         Short
Difficult       Difficult       Medium
Formidable      Formidable      Long
Staggering      Impossible      Extreme
Impossible      Impossible

The only way to get an Impossible difficulty level using the T4 task system
is through Diff Mods.

BL CREW QUALITY         TARGET NUMBER
Crack                        13
Line                         11
Trained                       9
Green                         7

Substitute the T4 rules for Spectacular Success for the BL rules on
Outstanding Success. Spectacular Failures have no effect.

You still need to use the d10 and d20 for damage rolls and the like.
(if anyone has a suggestion on how to alter these to 2 or 3d6 rolls, please
share it!)

I plan on trying this out this weekend. I'll let you know how it works...

                                Allen          


------------------------------

From: John Macek <macek@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 20:51:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Ship Illustrations (was Bring Back Blair!)

Mark Cook wrote:

{some snippage action here...}

> I was doing OK on my first pass through
> the new T4 book until I got to the pages containing illustrations of
> the space and starships.  *GAAGH*!!  I want my Beowolf-class free trader
> back!  and the far trader!  and the subsidized merchant!  and, and...
> well, you get the idea.  Frankly, seeing those new illustrations is a
> bit like walking into a chruch and discovering that the standard design
> for a crucifix had been re-do: Christ now is always seen wearing a
> leisure suit. :^/
> 

Mark my good fellow, instead of walking into a church, imagine yourself walking into a 
shipyard - 1100 years ago.  Don't expect the ship designs from Year 0 to look the same 
as ships in 1104.  For that matter, I wouldn't expect the ships from Diaspora to 
look toooo much like ships from the Spinward Marches.  Unless, of course, they come 
from the same manufacturer....

> 
> In my dream version of Traveller, we'd have all the artists that DGP used
> for their Alien Modules (_Cogs_n_Dogs_ and _Cats_n_Rats_), we'd have an
> Imperium the runs up to around the end of the 5th Frontier War, and I
> don't really *care* what rules set we use, as long as it has one of the
> better task resolution systems and a decent model for vehicle/ship design.
> 

Aaaahh, for the Glory Years....  
I too prefer the early 1100's for my campaigns.  It's the era my players and I grew up 
with.  But, as a "historian" I have to admit I am intrigued by the year 0 setting.  
With luck, the friendly game gurus of IG won't leave the 1100s crowd out in the cold.
Hmmm, maybe it's time to sharpen my pencil and write that between the wars (4th 
and 5th Frontier, that is) campaign guide.

Ensign John 

_______________________________________
"Ensign" John Brent Macek, Coast Survey Nautical Cartographer 
"For Strephon's Breast He aim'd his Dart, and watch'd him as he came;
He cry'd and shot him thro' the Heart, Thy Blood shall quench my Flame."
Lines from an old Terran song, circa -2800 Imperial


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 17:58:40 -0800
Subject: CANON should be a 4 letter word...(LONG)

My Cr 10 worth (adjusted for inflation from Cr .02) on that 5 letter 
word, CANON & Migrating Stars...

<Rant Mode ON>

Consider that canon, and players inflexibility about the same to some 
extent, helped KILL Traveller the first go around with GDW...

Think about it...

There were inconsistencies galore when only CT was around.  Judges 
Guild produced 4 sectors, that were IMHO, good (if not great) 
products.  Judges Guild goes belly up, and sometime later, GDW 
decides to invalidate the old sectors, but even uses 3 of the same 
sector names...  They replace them with maps in Atlas of the 
Imperium...

What led to this decision?  Maybe Loren or Marc can enlighten me (and 
I guess I need enlightening).  GDW never redid the sectors, beyond 
the sparse maps in Atlas of the Imperium...  Ditto Paranoia Press' 
Vanguard Reaches & The Beyond...  So even in CT days, we have 
inconsistencies in 6 sectors of known space, and DGP hasn't even 
entered the picture yet...  I won't even talk about the 
inconsistencies created by various world writeups in JTAS & 
Challenge, which are well documented...  Not to mention that at least 
1 minor alien race has been transplanted an entire sector by GDW since 
it was 1st written up...

Then comes DGP.  They generate all those nifty sectors that now sit 
in GEnie's archives, as well as numerous ftp sites.  But in many 
cases, they had errors, in even more cases, they conflicted with 
Atlas of the Imperium...  (I've been slowly plugging them into Jim 
V's Gal2.1 program, so I know what I'm talking about here)...  

Then GDW takes back total control of their game.  1 of their last acts of MT, 
before scrapping it for TNE, is to generate a sector booklet for the 
Diaspora sector set in the Hard Times era...ironically enough, the 
source data for the pre-Hard Times era numbers is...you guessed it, 
the DGP sector data...

TNE based its Collapse/TNE era data for both the RC and Regency stuff 
on the DGP stuff as well so...DGP's supporting a whole lot of the 
foundation...  I'm not so sure you can chuck DGP...any easier than you can 
chuck GDW's stuff...especially since this leaves you with: Spinward 
Marches, Solomani Rim, Diaspora, Gvurrdon Sector, Massilia, and a 
tiny bit of Old Expanses...  

If you really want to nitpick, Massilia, written by DGP staff for GDW's 
Knightfall, as well as Diaspora (based on DGP's stats) should probably be 
chucked as well, which kills the RC setting from TNE, which kills 
everything including the Regency sourcebook from TNE which was based 
on DGP's Domain of Deneb sector data printed in the MTJ to...Shall I 
continue...

Then on top of all this, there's all the stuff out there from 3rd 
party licensees...Group 1, Seeker, FASA, Sword of the Knight's more 
recent stuff...

What am I saying here?  I guess what I'm saying is what does it 
matter...  Recent astronomical discoveries suggest that Traveller got 
it wrong when they mapped a lot of known space, so the biggest CANON 
of all, REALITY, doesn't fit the CANON that we all know, cherish, and 
border on zealotry about at times...

I'm going to be disappointed if a lot of my players walk into the Spinward 
Marches, shortly after year 0, and its the same Spinward Marches of 1100 
years later...  Yes, the population government, and tech level won't be the 
same, but beyond that, the sector's been done to death.  About all you'd have 
to do is take all those world maps and writeups from GDW's stuff, remove 
the demarcations for cities, delete the references to the people, and you have 
the same tired sector that I've run WAY TOO MANY people through campaigns 
in for years...  Year Zero is about 1st contacts...exploring new and alien 
worlds, recontacting and rediscovering lost cultures...not about 
exploring the same tired systems with a few less colonists...  I say 
keep canon where convenient and absolutely necessary, but I refuse to 
have a meltdown because stuff doesn't match a lot of previous 
offerings...as a matter of fact, I'll be happier if it doesn't to 
some extent.  

And just how much do we know about Core sector, 
anyways...  1 set of articles in a TD (IIRC, I never had it), a few 
thin references from TNS articles in Challenge, mainly from the 
Rebellion era, a set of mediocre UWP for the sector on an FTP site 
from a company that hasn't published materials of ANY kind for 
Traveller for 4 years, the UWP for Core(Sylea) itself...(and there 
are previous inconsistencies in the UWP from GDW's era as well)  Heck, for 
those of us who don't have the particular TD (which is undoubtedly, 
the majority) it was written up in, we have more information on the 
1 page in the T4 rulebook, than in all previous sources combined...

Bottom line:  
As with any RPG, there is a trade off between fan-created, and 
published material...  Use too much fan-created material, and you're 
going to wind up not being able to use published material verbatim in 
your campaigns.  Use only published material, and frankly, you lose 
at least some of the fun of the game for a GM, which is designing a 
world that works down to the last rock and ice cap, and having the 
fun of watching players try to figure it out...  As usual, we're 
going to have to decide how much we use, and how much we toss...

And for those of us hung up on CANON...who can't fathom the HORROR of 
not being consistent with the previously published universe, believe it or not, 
you're probably already doing that...  I doubt there are a dozen people on this 
list that owns every word written about the game.  Remember, that includes all 
those 3rd party licensees (even the ones that lasted shorter than a baseball 
season), all those quaint articles, adventures and world writeups in 
places like The Space Gamer, Dragon, and others.  All 24 of those 
JTAS's, all 53 Challenge's...all the articles from the indies...et 
al...

Then there are the contradictions...  There is a list of some 50+ 
worlds that moved over the years on 1 of the ftp sites...  Whole alien 
races have been forcibly transplanted some 30-40 parsecs for the sake of 
canon...  GDW actually snuffed a bunch of minor races in Glimmerdrift 
Reaches out of existence when they invalidated the old Judges Guild 
stuff...  I'm surprised the Imperial Ministry of Justice didn't bring up 
Wiseman, Chadwick, Miller, et al, up on charges of genocide... :-)

You use what you have or create your own, because you don't have all 
this...which means you're not following the...egad, CANON...because 
you had to, heaven forbid, improvise or create.  If you view the previously 
published material as a bible, then imagine the Bible, if you tore out a few of the 
Psalms, a couple of the Prophets, maybe that whole Jonah & the Whale thingy, 
and tried to pass it off as the Bible...then imagine if 1 of the 
books of the prophets told you that all of the previous stuff in the 
old testament was wrong...GRR!

I could care less whether the DGP stuff is matched 100%.  Heck, they 
can take a few liberties with the old GDW stuff if they want (and you 
could probably make a case for this with Solomani Rim in light of 
more recent astronomical discoveries)...  Give me ideas.  Give me stuff I can use.  
Give me broad historical backdrops...  I'd prefer to fill in the details myself...

And take those old hangups about CANON, stuff 'em in a CANNON with a 
powder charge, and pull the lanyard...  You'll feel a lot better...

<Rant Mode OFF>

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:01:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Economics in T4...

Hello Fellow Travellers,
  I was discussing some stuff with a few of my players - regarding the
setting up of a colony, and setting the law levels and social levels and
all of that fun stuff <grin>.  What I am currently using is World Tamers
Handbook in the hopes that it can provide a lot of information on how to
set up colonies, and how to run them.  As it turns out, it opens a whole
pandora's box of questions as wells as answering a few questions (yeah,
you have been there right?!!!).
  WTH gives the basics about how to start a colony, as well as assigning a
rough tonnage required to ship any of the "capital investments".  It also
inplies that a certain amount of what the colony produces must be shipped
out - if only to get the credit required for importing luxeries and other
well needed equipment...

  So here is the mainthrust question I have for you people on this list...

In Striker, they give a formula for calculating the Gross Planetary
Output.  They then state that a set percentage is required to be set aside
for military spending and such.  Likewise, in Trillion Credit Squadron,
they state that a set amount of money is available per
planet/subsector/sector based upon the population ratings, the civilian
government rating, and whether the planet/subsector/sector is at war or
peace.
  Now what I am getting at is a logical extension of all that information,
and am trying to determine what kind of tonnage is required to keep the
trade routes flowing.  While the random charts for passengers and cargo
and freight is fine with regards to the general day to day affairs of
tramp freighters, it isn't ok when attempting to do a simulation of the
Empire's trade.
  You might wonder to yourself "why bother with all that work" and you
would probably be right.  But attention to details such as what I am
proposing might make the Imperium seem a little more alive and rational.
For instance: suppose you have an agricultural world at tech 9.  It is a
veritable garden world and is literally capable of being the breadbasket
of the sector.  As part of that subsector, are two vacuum worlds, a
overpopulated world, as well as some marginal worlds.  Suddenly, food has
a lot more value than what the "trade formulas" would indicate.  In fact,
it leads into something which the Classic Traveller never really went into
with regards to character background generation (ie High Guard).  What
reasons are there for characters to have backgrounds in raids, police
actions, and so forth?  What planets are the targets of such raids?  Where
were the wars that took place for players to earn their purple hearts,
MCUF, and the whole plethora of other medals awarded during wartime
actions?  If we examine the scenario I mentioned above, with all those
worlds short on food, and the one world with food, how long will it be
before the game of politics rears it's ugly head and plays games with the
policies of the other worlds?
  Another thing to occurs to me to wonder about... What is the overall
government rating of the imperium?  What are the limitations that the
Imperium places upon worlds, and citizens of the Imperium?  In short, I
would like to see more of the big picture before starting to work on the
small picture...

  Besides, in order to have unbridled ambition for your NPC's and PC's,
there has to be something for them to aspire towards - something bigger
than what they have now...

Hal


------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:07:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Scouts

I was kinda surprised myself when it came to that.  I have a question to
add to the "thread"...

  How does the Imperium reward those who find a habitable world?  Does the
chief scout get to name the world?  Does he get to "sell" the world to the
Imperium?  In short, what are the rewards that are granted to the scouts?
Should it be that they get more cash benefits?  What should be the result?

Hal


------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:30:06 -0800
Subject: Re: RPG Training

>Amen.
>
>I my games at school, I insist on the kids play-acting critical scenes. 
>Seeing as I am already making a fool of myself doing sily voices, they don't
>seem to mind.  We've even done combat this way ("stand up and show me what
>your character is doing") when things get confusing.  Lotsa fun!

Gee Rob, I wish they had that course at my high school :)  Tell me, what
course is it that you teach, and use roleplaying games in?  I've always
thought that both english and drama would be appropriate.  However, I can
just see 'roleplaying 101'

    /-\                                                           /-\
    |$| Peter John Miller ---> Oakville, Ontario, Canada          |$|
    |$|----------------------------------|------------------------|$|
    |$| Sorry, my homepage on Dragonfire.net is down right now but|$|
    |$| watch the .sig to see when it starts up again, and visit! |$|
    |$|----------------------------------|------------------------|$|
    |$| YoungMerlin - best grapics prices|"What a time to be alive|$|
    |$| on the Web!!!!!!!!               | - Dave Goldin, NASA    |$|
    (_)                                                           (_) 


------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:30:13 -0800
Subject: Proper Address

Hi,

Is TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM or

TRAVELLER@NS.MPGN.COM

the proper address?

Peter

    /-\                                                           /-\
    |$| Peter John Miller ---> Oakville, Ontario, Canada          |$|
    |$|----------------------------------|------------------------|$|
    |$| Sorry, my homepage on Dragonfire.net is down right now but|$|
    |$| watch the .sig to see when it starts up again, and visit! |$|
    |$|----------------------------------|------------------------|$|
    |$| YoungMerlin - best grapics prices|"What a time to be alive|$|
    |$| on the Web!!!!!!!!               | - Dave Goldin, NASA    |$|
    (_)                                                           (_) 


------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:30:13 -0800
Subject: Proper Address

Hi,

Is TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM or

TRAVELLER@NS.MPGN.COM

the proper address?

Peter

    /-\                                                           /-\
    |$| Peter John Miller ---> Oakville, Ontario, Canada          |$|
    |$|----------------------------------|------------------------|$|
    |$| Sorry, my homepage on Dragonfire.net is down right now but|$|
    |$| watch the .sig to see when it starts up again, and visit! |$|
    |$|----------------------------------|------------------------|$|
    |$| YoungMerlin - best grapics prices|"What a time to be alive|$|
    |$| on the Web!!!!!!!!               | - Dave Goldin, NASA    |$|
    (_)                                                           (_) 


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:35:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Weird places to game...

On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>

>Weird places to game over the years...

>1:  A friends' dads auto parts business...

>2:  A tent on a camping trip in high school...  (By Coleman lantern, 
>no less)

3:  In a stairwell during Army Basic Training at Ft. Benning, Ga.

4:  The back of a station wagon at an all-weekend Grateful Dead concert...

5:  In the same room as two women having sex.

The weirdest trip I've ever taken to game was in 1985.. our GM had been
transferred tp Germany, leaving us players at the very climax of the game!
so we took Military Airlift Command flights to Germany every week for a
month to finish the campaign.  $10 and 12 hours each way.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:24:19 +0000
Subject: Re: Traveller Filks

My usual traveller group has always had a rather mercenary bent to it 
and some of our favorites are already published

Co Dominium Line Marines from "West of Honor"
Jaques Cretien from the Dorsai Books

heres part of one from an ancient Space Gamer or something

Fighter Pilot of the Empire
thats who the hell I am
No Braver, meaner Specialist
does more than what I can
I fly my little Spaceship
into many battle Scenes
or walk into a sordid bar
and kick a big Marine

The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:35:37 -0700
Subject: Traveller Filk

I actually wrote a few of those a few years ago.. the most notable being the
"Ballad of the Free Trader Beowulf", to the tune of the Beach Boys' "Sloop
John B."  I'm looking for the complete song, but the chorus went like this:

"As turret two fires on,
Turret one won't respond,
The pirates just blew the main drive away
The hull has been holed,
We're all getting cold,
Can you hear us?
We're calling Mayday"

I have some ideas for others.. suggestions accepted..

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:46:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word...(LONG)

Let me put something right up front, before I dive into the nuances of 
the discussion:

You're right, Stu.

Okay, now that that's out of the way, those disinterested in hearing more 
ranting along the same lines as Stu's can just skip the rest of this 
message. [G]


On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> Consider that canon, and players inflexibility about the same to some 
> extent, helped KILL Traveller the first go around with GDW...
> 
> Think about it...

I hadn't thought of that.  But it is true.

Still, each person has a point at which she feels that a product with the 
"Traveller" name on it is, in fact, no longer "Traveller."  If IG bought 
the rights to Universe, and just did a search-and-replace of the word 
"Universe" with "Traveller," would that be "Traveller?"  Not to me.

But that's an easy one.  

It becomes more difficult when you talk about a product like MT, TNE, or 
T4.  They're all recognizably Traveller to one degree or another, when 
looked at objectively.  But subjectively, I'll bet each one of those 
sacrifices one or more elements of "canon" which makes it become 
something other than Traveller to at least one person on this very list.

Reasonably, we should all look at this objectively.  First of all, 
whenever you buy ANY game, you are buying a set of guidelines.  These 
guidelines include rules and setting.  Both can be changed by individual 
GMs to suit their style and tastes.  Example 1:  When we bought 
Shadowrun, my gaming group immediately disliked the amount of money a 
character got for taking the highest level of wealth in character 
generation.  So, we halved the amounts on the table.  Example 2:  We 
didn't like the "official" setting of Gamma World, so we modified the 
h*ll out of it, changing the maps, the technology available, the beings 
in existance, and a whole slew of other things.

These sorts of things can be done with Traveller as well.  You can use 
stuff from previous editions.  You can use your own stuff.  You can use 
IG's new stuff.  You can mix-and-match to your heart's content.

However, I'm a purist in the sense that I dislike mixing game systems.  I 
will not be using CT-era stuff with T4, no matter how much I happen to 
dislike any aspect of the T4 game.  Weird, huh?  Further, I feel no 
qualms about putting home-grown rules into T4.  Kind of a dichotomy, but 
that's just how I am.

So, I can relate to those who want T4 to be a reincarnation (to one 
degree or another) of their favorite Traveller system.  However, it seems 
clear that there ARE ways to make T4 into whatever system one wants it to 
be. 

Anyway.  Some specific replies:

[snip]
> I'm going to be disappointed if a lot of my players walk into the Spinward 
> Marches, shortly after year 0, and its the same Spinward Marches of 1100 
> years later...  Yes, the population government, and tech level won't be the 
> same, but beyond that, the sector's been done to death.  About all you'd have 
> to do is take all those world maps and writeups from GDW's stuff, remove 
> the demarcations for cities, delete the references to the people, and you have 
> the same tired sector that I've run WAY TOO MANY people through campaigns 
> in for years...  Year Zero is about 1st contacts...exploring new and alien 
> worlds, recontacting and rediscovering lost cultures...not about 
> exploring the same tired systems with a few less colonists...  I say 
> keep canon where convenient and absolutely necessary, but I refuse to 
> have a meltdown because stuff doesn't match a lot of previous 
> offerings...as a matter of fact, I'll be happier if it doesn't to 
> some extent.  

Personally, I would be happiest if all the maps change - for all eras.  
I've "done" CT's Spinward Marches and Solomani Rim /way/ too much to want 
a simple rehash.  Move some stuff around.  Change the governmental 
structures.  Change the X-boat routes.  In short, keep the "frontier" 
feel the Spinward Marches are supposed to have, but change just about 
anything else.  That will make the Marches fun in 1100 again.

'Course the folks who want nothing to be changed might say "Well, if that 
is what you want, follow your own advice and make it yourself.  Leave the 
official material alone!"

That is true, except for the fact that when I buy a product from IG, I 
expect it to be NEW product.  If it is simply a repackaged CT-era 
product, I'll be mighty disappointed.  I already have all that stuff.  
Give me something NEW.

[snip]
> As with any RPG, there is a trade off between fan-created, and 
> published material...  Use too much fan-created material, and you're 
> going to wind up not being able to use published material verbatim in 
> your campaigns.  Use only published material, and frankly, you lose 
> at least some of the fun of the game for a GM, which is designing a 
> world that works down to the last rock and ice cap, and having the 
> fun of watching players try to figure it out...  As usual, we're 
> going to have to decide how much we use, and how much we toss...

Right.  Nothing new there.

[snip]
> I could care less whether the DGP stuff is matched 100%.  Heck, they 
> can take a few liberties with the old GDW stuff if they want (and you 
> could probably make a case for this with Solomani Rim in light of 
> more recent astronomical discoveries)...  Give me ideas.  Give me stuff I can use.  
> Give me broad historical backdrops...  I'd prefer to fill in the details myself...

Yes!  That is what I want as well.  Keep it the same in a broad sense, 
give me new nuances, and let me fill in the rest.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest        Wednesday, 18 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 425

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Deck Plans
         2. A few house rules
         3. Looking for Scott Kellogg
         4. Dewclaw
         5. [Noise] *Inago* Montoya, not "Iago"
         6. I made a mistake! (first time for everything... :) )
         7. Re: Dewclaw
         8. re: Traveller Suite
         9. Stu's Rant
        10. Re: A few house rules
        11. Re: Economics in T4...
        12. A new filk
        13. RE: Re: Deck Plans
        14. Canon, Migrating Stars, Core Subsector...
        15. RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #422
        16. RE: Stu's Rant
        17. Arena Combat
        18. Re: Weird places to game...
        19. Re: Moving stars

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:50:51 -0700
Subject: Re: Deck Plans

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 
> Rob Prior said:
> 
>>I have virtually finished the complex from the CT adventure "Shadows" 
>>(just the lower level left, which my players never reached).  I did 
>>this one in sections, so the referee could lay it out a room at a time 
>>- herebypreserving the feel of exploration.   Is there any interest in 
>>seein these plans?

I'd love to see the plans Rob.

>What I can't get enough of is various building and city layout plans.  I
>thought about trying to make some on templates that could be laid out in 
>any orientation and the door would match up, etc.  But I haven't had the 
>time for this.  Other than Windows Paint, I dont have any nifty drawing 
>programs.

You want to know how to get lots of floor plans for buildings.  When a 
new condo goes up take a tour, most of these guys give out free floor 
plans for a dozen different appartments.  FREE!!!  FREE!!!  FREE!!!

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 23:39:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: A few house rules

In testing out T4, I've come up with a few house rules to cover apparent
gaps. These may be covered in MT or TNE, but I never read either of those.

According to T4, page 58: Under normal gravity, a character can leap up, or
standing broad jump, a distance of: (Strength+Athletics) x 10cm. (Actually
the authors don't include brackets, which makes this a bit unclear, but I
assume this is the correct formula). Also, under 1G, a character can do a
running broad jump of (Str + Ath) x 0.5 meters. 

The text claims that jumping in variant gravities is "defined in Chapter
11: World Generation" - which is actually Chapter 12, where in fact it
isn't covered. So here's my stab at it:

House Rule:
Leaping/Jumping in Variant Gravities:
Simply divide the normal distance by the G rating of the planet.

Example: a PC with Str. of 9 and Athletics-1 can leap up, or standing-jump,
a distance of 1m under 1G, or 2m under 0.5G, 10m under 0.1G, 100m under
0.01G(!),  only 50cm under 2G, and so on. Technically, one could jump
farther under some circumstances, but this would require a task roll,
usually involving Combat Environment skill or similar. Under 3G, jumping
any distance over a 30cm becomes an Athletics test.

The same PC can do a running jump of 5m under 1G, 50m under 0.1G, 25m under
0.5, 2.5m under 2G, and 1.75m under 3G. Any such jump is going to require a
task roll against an applicable skill.

- --
I defy anyone to remain standing when a grenade goes off two meters away,
or they get hit by a Magnum bullet. Therefore...

House Rule:
Stopping Power:
A hit from any weapon (except lasers) rated at 4D damage (before armor
subtractions) automatically knocks a character prone. When hit by weapons
rated at 2D-3D damage, a PC must roll vs. Dexterity to remain standing. 1D
weapons: only roll vs. Dex if the PC is very fatigued, wounded, or drunk.

Getting knocked down when hit might incur a further point of damage, at the
referee's discretion. If a character is braced in some way, against a wall
or doorframe, they might get a DM+4 on their roll to remain standing; and a
4D hit might not automatically blow them over.

This rule gets interesting when the PCs or NPCs are on a rooftop, balcony,
staircase, etc. Yiii!
- --

Two other, more serious, gaps I've noticed in T4: there's no Armor table,
and no Tech Level table. So of course I've written my own. But it's time
consuming, covering over the holes in the system. I'm having fun, all the
same...

Glenn

- ---------------------------------------------------------
                        Glenn Grant  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
- ---------------------------------------------------------
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."



------------------------------

From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 20:49:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Looking for Scott Kellogg

Greetings, sophonts. As the "subject line" suggests, I'm wondering
if anybody knows whether or not Scott "2G" Kellogg is still on the net.
He used to be a member of the Traveller Mailing List once upon a time,
and back in September of 1992 of thereabouts, he got into a discussion
w/ Frank Chadwick regarding GDW's copyright policy. I'm sort of
poking around in my personal archives, trying to find out exactly
what was said, so as to possibly include the material in a small
compilation covering the history of GDW's/IG's/FFE's copyright policy.
If anybody knows Scott's email address and/or miraculously still has
a copy of this ancient discussion, please let me know.

Although this compilation is still in a half-baked state, I have managed
to collect together a number of interesting articles, and in reviewing
this old material, I have to admit that I'm somewhat gratified that
Marc Miller seems to be much more net-friendly than GDW ever was. If
anyone would like to see the material I've gathered so far, drop me an
email, as I don't want to waste list-bandwidth with this stuff.

jimv@empirenet.com


------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 01:00:00 GMT 
Subject: Dewclaw

Stu

> Egad, 10 years of "canon" invalidated, by the revelation of a
> misinterpretation of a semi-ambiguous drawing...
>
> Is nothing sacred???  ;-P

Don't tell me this discovery invalidates all of your subsector maps,
UWPs, and starship designs?
 : )


 Bill Keith's drawings in the original JTAS article explained things in
perfect clarity. It's just that Venters picked the single ambiguous sketch
in the bunch to take his inspiration from.

By the way...have I mentioned the third eye all Vilani have on a phosphor-
escent tendril in the middle of their forehead?

Just kidding! :)

    LKW

------------------------------

From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 23:55:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Noise] *Inago* Montoya, not "Iago"

*set geek_mode = true

In a previous TML digest, someone made reference to the character "Iago
[sic] Montoya" from the movie "The Princess Bride".  The character's name
is "Inago", not "Iago".  

FWIW, the name "Iago" belongs to the villain in Bill Shakespeare's "Othello,
Moor of Venic".  

*set geek_mode = false

Franklin W. Cain


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 00:29:37 -0400
Subject: I made a mistake! (first time for everything... :) )

        I made an error awhile back which has caused some confusion. I
designed a T4 facsimile of a ship called the Iron Fist class Corsair, and
said it was based on a ship published in FAR TRAVELLER. Right church, wrong
pew. It was published in FASA's OTHER magazine, High Passage (at least, I
presume FASA was involved in it-one of these magazines replaced the other,
but I don't know which one.)
                                                Allen

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 00:19:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Dewclaw

On Wed, 18 Sep 1996 gdw.support@genie.com wrote:

> Stu
> 
> > Egad, 10 years of "canon" invalidated, by the revelation of a
> > misinterpretation of a semi-ambiguous drawing...
> >
> > Is nothing sacred???  ;-P
> 
> Don't tell me this discovery invalidates all of your subsector maps,
> UWPs, and starship designs?
>  : )
> 
> 
>  Bill Keith's drawings in the original JTAS article explained things in
> perfect clarity. It's just that Venters picked the single ambiguous sketch
> in the bunch to take his inspiration from.
> 
> By the way...have I mentioned the third eye all Vilani have on a phosphor-
> escent tendril in the middle of their forehead?


Ahhh, I see! Is that related to the third ear on top of the skull of all
Darrians? Did Grandfather have some sort of plan Loren? ;)



> 
> Just kidding! :)
> 
>     LKW
> 


------------------------------

From: BRuadh@aol.com
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 00:27:56 -0400
Subject: re: Traveller Suite

Previously on TML:

>TRAVELLER SUITE - A collection of on-line utilities for Traveller
>    For EuroGenCon-96 I produced a demo version of a concept 
>for a Traveller Suite, similar in market positioning to the
>recently released TSR CD-ROM.
>

Snippage

>   The demo elicited a very positive reaction from both players and
>distributors and I received a large number of requests to make
>this demonstration publicly available.

Snippage.

>    The development manager of this software is Jo Grant who can be
>reached at jo_grant@crd.lotus.com. The project manager is Andy Lilly
>who can be reached at A.S.Lilly@nortel.co.uk. This product is brought
>to you by the CORE Traveller development group, in association with
>Imperium Games, and is intended to compliment our range of upcoming
>Traveller supplements.

To which this humble but dedicated Traveller fan replies:

With saliva drifting from my frothing mouth, arms outreached, and hands
grasping involuntarily.....GIMME, GIMME, GIMME.....

Brian Howard

------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:00:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Stu's Rant

Hello List members,
  To second Stu's commentary on Cannon - use the Cannon (or is it canon?
<grin>) only with respect to technology and stuff of that nature.  I can
agree wholeheartedly that I don't have all of the stuff put out on the
Traveller Multi-universe (or is that multi-dimensional).  That means that
if I don't have the stuff required for the adventure I have in mind, then
walla, new sector/subsector map springs into being, and a new chapter of
history for my universe springs into being.  I suspect that there is an
official TROJAN REACHES section somewhere, but I don't have it, and I
don't much care one way or another.  I just wanted to be  able to use
spinward marches, along with the Aslan communities located in Trojan
reaches for an interesting exploration scenario.

  So, to Stu, I will buy you a Pan-Galactic Gargleblaster at the first
Spaceport bar we both walk into...

  By the way, anyone ever do a list of Bar names on different worlds???

Hal


------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:20:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: A few house rules

<snipped due to agreement with rules...>

> I defy anyone to remain standing when a grenade goes off two
meters away,
> or they get hit by a Magnum bullet. Therefore...
> 

The difference between the two forms of attacks is that of kinetic versus
stored energy.  THe grenade's explosion is the chemical release of energy,
and is disproportionate to the energy required to loft the grenade.
Standing next to the shockwave would in most likelyhood, knock you down
(to put it mildly).  On the other hand, Newton's law "for every action,
there is an equal and opposite reaction" is the governing law with regards
to bullets.  If the bullet leaving the gun does not "knock" down the
person firing the gun, then it should not be automatically knocking down
the target - assuming that the target and the firing person are of
approximately similar masses.  Therefor, remove the automatic rule of the
4d6, and change it to a difficulty task versus Dex based upon the
impacting damage - that I might go along with.  What knocks a person down
per se is the off-balance nature that comes of trying to balance upon two
points (ie feet) when gravity is doing it's level best to bring you down
to the ground AND the unexpected impact of a weapon.  This of course does
nothing to explain how the body reacts to sudden injury.  There are too
many instances where wounded men were totally unaware they were wounded!

> House Rule:
> Stopping Power:
> A hit from any weapon (except lasers) rated at 4D damage (before armor
> subtractions) automatically knocks a character prone. When hit by weapons
> rated at 2D-3D damage, a PC must roll vs. Dexterity to remain standing. 1D
> weapons: only roll vs. Dex if the PC is very fatigued, wounded, or drunk.
> 
> Getting knocked down when hit might incur a further point of damage, at the
> referee's discretion. If a character is braced in some way, against a wall
> or doorframe, they might get a DM+4 on their roll to remain standing; and a
> 4D hit might not automatically blow them over.
> 
> This rule gets interesting when the PCs or NPCs are on a rooftop, balcony,
> staircase, etc. Yiii!
> --

Hal


------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:32:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Economics in T4...

At 10:01 PM -0400 9/17/96, Hal Carmer wrote:
>  Now what I am getting at is a logical extension of all that information,
>and am trying to determine what kind of tonnage is required to keep the
>trade routes flowing.  While the random charts for passengers and cargo
>and freight is fine with regards to the general day to day affairs of
>tramp freighters, it isn't ok when attempting to do a simulation of the
>Empire's trade.

Right after TCS came out, some friends and I did some (very crude) work on
shipping.  The idea was that player empires could boost their military
budget by licensing privateers, with the added bonus of hurting the
opponents budget for the next year.  Basically, each planet had to have X
cargo tons transit through it's starports to support its GNP, which made
for some interesting situations at some neutral worlds - a couple of times,
several empires had treaties regulating the amount of their naval tonnage
they'd allow at a world (generally about 200Ktons per empire "to protect
neutral shipping interests" of course), without consulting the world.

We also came up with some rules for having the navy run black programs and
have them generate TL increase.  We had split up TL into many different
areas (J-Drive, M-Drive, Powerplants, Med, etc etc) and had a rule of not
allowing more than a 3 TL spread for a world.

My idea was to run a couple of centuries of TCS to generate the history of
my campaign universe, and then run some pcs through the "interesting"
years.  This worked out rather well.

Alas, my notes for this campaign were lost (along with all my CT stuff) in
Hurricane Andrew a few years back, so I can't really be more specific.

There were a couple of interesting historical events like the fortification
of Clarke's Moon - A major (more than 40% of the empire's total naval
tonnage) naval task force jumped in with several million tons of cargo
ships, used the task force's spinal meson guns to excavate 30 thousand
craters suitable for the prefab units (100 Ton meson bay, powerplant,
computer, fiber optic links to neighboring bunkers) they'd brought along in
the supply train.  Dropped the units with specially designed combat
engineer ships, and buried them.  Then they spent several months using the
moon (sole moon of the one gas giant in the crucially located asteroid
belt) as target practice with the intention of "making it smooth as a
$%#$%! billiard ball" so that the enemy couldn't be sure where the meson
guns were buried.  It cost him several years budget, but it cut the other
empire in half since it was the only J-2 connection between the two
subsectors.

Then there was the guy who decided to build half-million ton dispersed
structure carriers that carried 5,000 Flea-class fighters.  The carrier
groups also had several 200Kton tenders that provided extra maintenance
facilities.  A battle group with a couple of these would jump into a system
and pretty effectively bar it from enemy activity.  The expression on the
guy who first got hit was priceless when Mark said "I launch 5,000
fighters. <pause for comprehension>  And what the hell, the Boyington will
launch 5K fighters as well.  I believe you were bragging about the 800
fighters in your screen?"

On falling rocks - all the PCs thought of them, seperately, built them, and
then  came to seperate agreements not to use them (typically, they'd get
into a treaty negotiation and whip out the big stick, only to have it
countered, panic and agree not to use them against each other) or even to
mutually disarm.  Unsurprisingly, they always held back a couple or three
"just in case."


Joseph Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

Incoming fire always has the right of way.

PGP 2048bit-Fingerprint: F8 A2 A5 15 56 42 9B 16  3F BD 57 0F 8A ED E3 21



------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:44:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: A new filk

Doug's "Sloop John B." chorus inspired me.  Presenting...

      "Solomani Girls"

Well Aslan girls are mean,
I really dig that fur they wear;
And the Vargr girls, with the way they shoot,
They chased me out when I went there,
Vilani nobles' daughters have a lot of things to steal,
And Zhodani girls, it's a funny thing, they seem to know just how I feel.

  I wish they all could be Solomani girls...

The Rim is hot on fashion,
Everybody's dressed to kill
And if you say the wrong thing in the wrong startown bar
You can be damn sure they will.
The Virus trashed my favorite worlds,
And there's not a lot to save,
So I'm gonna stick with my Terran chick
And we'll surf the Empress Wave!

  I wish they all could be Solomani girls...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Author of Orb: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/orbinfo.html
   |    Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:52:00 -0400
Subject: RE: Re: Deck Plans

At 1:05 PM -0400 9/17/96, Boyd Schneider wrote:
>What I can't get enough of is various building and city layout plans.  I
>thought about trying to make some on templates that could be laid out in any
>orientation and the door would match up, etc.  But I haven't had the time for
>this.  Other than Windows Paint, I dont have any nifty drawing programs.

I go through the real estate section of the paper and rip out the
house/condo floor plans.  I also got a bunch of stadium plans when
ticketmaster recently put an insert in one of the free weekly papers.


Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

"Big Brother is not a member of the traditional American family."
 - Nadine Strossen



------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 02:31:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Canon, Migrating Stars, Core Subsector...

Hi all.

Well, I'm not sure, but I think I may have pissed off a bunch of people
with my little complaint about the Core subsector in T4.  

Let me first say that I do agree with those who say "Well, you don't have
to follow canon, so what are you worried about?".  I'm not a big stickler
for "official" background stuff generally.

But now here's my problem:  I'm trying to come up with a background set in
Year 0.  I would like it to fit as much as possible with the stuff that IG
has/is/will be published (I know I don't _have_ to, but I _want_ to,
okay?). So I want to fit the Core subsector as published into my version
of the nascent 3rd Imperium. 

According to the information I have from the Imperial Encylcopedia, Sylea
controlled an entire sector in Year 0.  This sector presumably included
the Core subsector and about 15 other subsectors around it.  Furthermore,
by Year 0 they had controlled this area of space for at least several
decades if not several centuries.  Now all of a sudden there's the T4 Core
subsector whose rimward half is unexplored.  In fact it is stated on the
map that these worlds with no UPPs listed have not been contacted in
centuries.

So my question is:  If this is the Core subsector from Year 0, why have
the Syleans (apparently) only expanded coreward? Why have they not even
sent basic scouting missions to the rest of the systems in their vicinity
when they've expanded several subsectors in every other direction?  Should
I modify the background I'm designing to fit this subsector in?  Or will
it turn out to be the Core subsector from -500 Imperial?  If that's the
case, then I've wasted some effort if I try to shoehorn it into my
background. If it turns out to be the core subsector from Year 0, then I
need some explanation as to it's layout which seems to violate either
Traveller's history or common sense. 

Any help on this issue would be appreciated,
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 06:00:09 UT
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #422

Ross Coburn said:
>>In other words, the breaking of laws is for convieniece only -- to take a 
>>shortcut to reach a goal.  It's these kind  of law-breakers that get caught 
>>(either by the authorities or by other bad guys).  Now what would really 
>>entertain me is to see some PCs design an elaborate scheme -- breaking 
>>laws or not.  
>
>Boyd, _PLEASE_ refrain from asking things like this, because you only 
>serve to encourage at least one of my players who lurks on this list.  
>It's bad enough when they're winging it; elaborate plans send me 
>running for Tylenol (preferably the almond-flavoured variety. . .).

"Stump the Judge!" That's what I always say!!!      :-)>
	
					---Boyd




------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 06:29:21 UT
Subject: RE: Stu's Rant

Hal Carmer said (among other things):
>
> By the way, anyone ever do a list of Bar names on different worlds???
>

No, but do you realize that bar hopping is probably the one common thread that 
liks ALL role-playing games together?  I've played with guys who wouldn't be 
caught dead in a real bar, but their characters go into bars every time they 
leave their ship.  Of course, depending on the genre, they will go into a 
drinking establishment whenever they get into town.

I thought I would make a random bar encounter table since PCs spend so much 
time there, we might as well streamline that part of the adventure.

hmmm...
Random Bar Encounter Table (1d6)
1. player gets drunk.
2. player gets drunk and passes out.
3. player gets drunk, pukes, and passes out.
4. player gets drunk, passes out, and player's wallet gets swiped.
5. player gets lucky
6. player gets drunk and lucky.

;-)>
					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: Pete Blake <peteb@digicon-egr.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:27:55 +0100
Subject: Arena Combat

Hi Glen and all,

Your description of playing out an adventure in a 'real world location'
with multiple groups (Silent in Gehenna) struck a great cord with me.

When I was younger we played Trav regularly.  We had a great on going
camapign and that was brilliant.  However, someone got it into their
head to run a sort of Gladatorial Arena in an AD&D game we played and
the idea really appealed to the guys playing Trav.  Now we all lived
around a school which we used as a huge playground.  We played all sorts
of games there and knew the place really well - when we were younger we
even used to go climbing all over the roof of the buildings - so we knew
every inch of the school.  Also, right adjacent to the school was a
large park with lakes and trees and bushes.  Being the outdoor
adventurous sorts we knew every blade of grass in the park too.  The net
result?  A huge arena!

So I got a group of players together at home and split them up into 2
groups of 2.  One pair sat in my room, one in the spare room.  I then
started each pair off in a different location in the park or school
grounds.  Each player had a noddy character with a UPP of 777777 and a
choice of any weapon - RAM grenade launchers and FGMP-15s were the most
popular :-) 

Their mission?  Kill the other pair.  As all 5 of us knew the grounds
inside out I had no need to describe the layout - everyone knew exactly
what each bush looked like.  I just flitted back and forth between the
two pairs, giving them equal time slots. Sometimes I'd throw in a few
NPCs running around, sometimes not.

These were some of the best games we ever had.

Thanks for bringing back such fond memories :-)

Pete.

------------------------------

From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:43:26 +0300
Subject: Re: Weird places to game...

> Weird places to game over the years...
> 1:  A friends' dads auto parts business...
> 2:  A tent on a camping trip in high school...

        1: Inside an army ambulance, hidden in a vehicle dug-in and
        concealed by winter camo-net. It was -28 Celsius outside and
        heavy snow fall. We were in sleeping bags on stretches, and
        played RuneQuest all night. (After the camo-net was cvered by
        snow, it was not too cold.)

        2: I a forward field hospital during guerilla actions camp in
        summer -92. We spend the idle time playing hybrid RQ/Traveller.
        I almost lost my dices when the fox-circle sentry gave us warning
        of approaching anti-guerilla patrol, and we had to pack up the
        FFH and leave before the patrol hits the mines. (The whole
        forward field hospital fits inside two large pack-frames, and
        it is VERY tightly packed.)

        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :


------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 04:53:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Moving stars

[with some snippage, Steve Charlton said:]
>  They did not just 
>randomly change important historical contexts like the name of the Emperor in 
>1101 or the Imperial symbol or THE LOCATIONS OF STARS. 
> We're not talking about statistical 
>goofiness in UPPs here; we talking about a map showing WHERE THE STARS ARE.
>
>Yes, I realize I can use the old maps.  Hell, I can even make up my own maps.  
>This is fine, but the problem is that it should not be necessary.  To 
>paraphrase a movie I once saw, "Are you saying stars migrate?"
>
>Peevishly Yours
>Steven Charlton
>President, Imperial Stellar Migration Society

They do indeed migrate, Steve. And faster than you might realize, in all
sorts of crazy directions at once.

Right now the Solar System is migrating at about 20km/second, roughly in
the direction Vega. This doesn't seem terribly fast - I believe it works
out to about 0.0003 lightyears every 1000 years (I just happen to have been
working out these figures yesterday). That seems awfully slow. But
remember, all the other stars are also migrating, along different vectors.
The relative speeds can be surprising: Barnard's Star (IIRC) is moving much
faster than any of the others in the local group, for instance. (Does
anyone have the figure for Barnard's?)

Go back in time about 10,000 years and the constellations would be hard to
recognize due to stellar drift. Most of these stars are a heck of a long
way away, so they must be moving awfully fast relative to each other, and
to us, to exibit this kind of obvious drift.

Does this mean that the stars in the Core Subsector could have reshuffled
themselves over a period of just 1000 years? Well.... only if we assume
that they're moving at much greater relative velocities than the stars in
our local group. Which might not be impossible. I don't own any maps of the
Core sector from the Third Imperium era, so I can't take a stab at what
those velocities might be - anyone care to guess?

An amazing coincidence: I was just last weekend discussing this very topic
with a fellow Canadian SF writer who is an astronomer (actually, he's got
degrees in Physics, Astronomy, AND the History and Philosophy of Science!).
I was saying that I felt that border maintenance would be difficult in a
long-lived galactic empire, partly because colonies would be slowly
wandering off into other parts of the galaxy, while alien colony worlds
blundered into "our" territory. He agreed and said it would take only a few
thousand years in some cases.

Stars, however, are not known to be carried off by African or European
swallows. Gripped by the husk or otherwise.

Glenn

- ---------------------------------------------------------
                        Glenn Grant  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
- ---------------------------------------------------------
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #425
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Traveller-digest        Wednesday, 18 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 426

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Star Maps
         2. Re: The Marvelous Mutating Core Subsector
         3. Bar Encounters...
         4. Solomani Girls Filk.
         5. Water in the desert...
         6. Re: Proper Address
         7. 4-Sale..Odds & Ends.. -Reply
         8. Re: PC Deaths
         9. Re: Traveller Software (hopefully) Available
        10. Re: sustainable technologie
        11. Re: sustainable technologie (questions)
        12. Re: sustainable technologie (answers)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 04:53:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Star Maps

If you're an obsessive hard-science data freak like me, constantly on the
prowl for decent maps of the real Orion Arm, then you'll want to check this
out:

An astronomer at RICE university has a web-page devoted (in part) to the
LISM, or Local InterStellar Medium, with detailed, beautiful, color .jpg
maps of our region of space, seen flat-on, looking 'down' from Galactic
North. One map is 500 parsecs across; the other is 120 pc. And both are
paired with color paintings of the same regions, plus a painting of the
whole galaxy (~25,000pc across). The maps show (with some guesswork I
suspect), the warmer/thinner areas of the LISM, and the cooler/denser areas
surrounding them, various nebulae and dark clouds, several agglomerations
of O & B type stars, and a large number of bright stars are labeled. The
huge gaseous structures of the Local Bubble, The Wall, The Local Fluff, and
Loops I through III are shown, and also the Pleiades, Polaris, T Tauri, the
"Aquila Rift" and so on. The big gaseous loops aren't nebulae, just denser
regions of "vacuum", probably being blown outward by the remnant heat of
ancient supernovae, making the bubbles. It's amazing - at this scale, space
looks like the froth on top of a milkshake.

Compare the 500pc map to the Traveller Imperium map for some surprises: the
Imperium seems... well, rather *puny*. This vast empire covers only about
10% of the map. Out beyond the Zhodani consulate is the Aquila Rift, over
180pc long. The Solomani Sphere is, coincidentally, just about
circumscribed by the gaseous wall of the Local Bubble, beyond which (to
Rimward) are the Pleiades, T Tauri, the Taurus Dark Cloud, the Medusa
Nebula, and further huge, unidentified loops of cool gas. Too bad there's
no nebula where the Dark Nebula sector would be. The "inner edge" of the
Orion Arm would be some ways off of the Coreward (top) side of the  map,
and the centre of the Galaxy at least four meters away! At the same scale
(about 20pc to the cm), a map of the entire galaxy would be 12.5m across...

Look for it at:

<http://spacsun/rice.edu/~twg/lism.html>

If you know of any similar downloadable maps, I'd be very interested. (And
yes, I know about the 3-D Star Map website with the Gliese program).

Glenn

- ---------------------------------------------------------
                        Glenn Grant  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
- ---------------------------------------------------------
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."



------------------------------

From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:57:44 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Re: The Marvelous Mutating Core Subsector

> I'm glad Marc is back, and I'm pleased with pretty much everything I've seen 
> thus far (excepting Range Bands and a poor Aslan picture).  However, I have a 
> VERY uncomfortable feeling about this.  This is NOT support for previous 
> versions of Traveller.  A cynic would describe this as a specific effort to 
> force people to discard a wealth of _GDW_ created background and buy a NEW 
> Atlas of the Imperium (with a $15-$20 pricetag).    Invalidating the 
> DGP-generated sectors makes sense to me, but arbitrarily moving around actual 
> stars does not.

  IMHO it is an expression of the same sentiment GDW expressed when they
back in 92 said that 'There's so much written for Traveller that nobody
can keep it all straight, that's why we are starting over with TNE', not
any money-making scheme.
 
> Steven Charlton

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 05:36:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Bar Encounters...

Hi All.

======Boyd Said:=======

hmmm...
Random Bar Encounter Table (1d6)
1. player gets drunk.
2. player gets drunk and passes out.
3. player gets drunk, pukes, and passes out.
4. player gets drunk, passes out, and player's wallet gets swiped.
5. player gets lucky
6. player gets drunk and lucky.

;-)>
                                        ---Boyd
==================

Wait, you mean you can get lucky in a bar _without_ getting drunk?  That's
not very realistic!  :-)

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 05:39:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Solomani Girls Filk.

Craig Berry:  Thank you, I needed that.  That was the _best_!  I was
completely laughing my ass off!  Someone _must_ do that at a convention,
preferably with full costumes and the whole bit. Hilarious! 

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 10:28:34 UT
Subject: Water in the desert...

I've been working on some trade routes in the Lunion subsector and noticed 
that seven systems have a zero hydrographics percentage.  I figured with that 
high demand, drinking water transport must be a fairly big business, 
especially in the Lunion subsector.  My question is, what sort of factors 
would come into play when shipping drinking water to a dry world?

Here is what I've got so far:

1 gallon of water = 3.8 liters
1 gallon of water = 9 pounds = 4.05 kilograms
246 gallons = 935 liters = 1 metric ton (approximately)
base price for 1 ton of cargo is Cr.5,000 (T4, pg 166).

Using Ianic as an example:  Rich (+1000), Desert(+1000), E- Starport (+3000) 
the price of one ton of water shipped in would be 10,000 credits per ton! 
I ignored the TL modifier since water on a high TL world is the same as on a 
low TL world.

So...
Cr.10,000/246=40.65 credits per gallon or Cr.10,000/935=10.7 credits per liter

A captain of a subsidized merchant could clear an easy 2 million credits per 
trip!  All he would need is to run a fire hose from a hanger in Derchon or 
Lunion and fill his specially fitted cargo bay to capacity and viola!  His 
ship could be paid off in no time...

Unless Ianic can locate water from an alternate source, or it is provided via 
another method, it seems like water transport is a gold mine for characters!

What other factors should I take in consideration to balance out this seeming 
inequity in things.  Ianic has a population in the millions!  How could they 
supply their TL 5 society with enough drinking water every day for their 
people, livestock, agriculture?  (not to mention coolant for their vehicles, 
wet-cell batteries, bathing, cooking, manufacturing, etc.)  It seems to me 
that every day must be a crisis for these people unless the planetiod belt is 
full o' icey chunks. 

Comments anyone?
						---Boyd

------------------------------

From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 22:06:40 
Subject: Re: Proper Address

Hello Peter, on Sep 17 you wrote:

> Is TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM or
> TRAVELLER@NS.MPGN.COM
> the proper address?
>
Well, traveller@MPGN.COM is the original and correct address. It is the one
I use. The NS one is just a recent alias for it. As both work you can use
either, but using both gives all of us double vision. :-)

BTW: One to avoid is sending your message to owner-traveller@MPGN.COM. If you do
this your message gets through, but apparently the system cries bounce and shuts
your subscription down for a week. Nasty!

James Dempsey
- ---------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd



------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:24:36 -0400
Subject: 4-Sale..Odds & Ends.. -Reply

>The Traveller Adventure - $3
>(Some slight water damage to cover.)

If you haven't received any other offers for the above item, I'm interested.


Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:28:49 PST
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

In mail you write:

> I've had to kill PC's as a GM , and on one or more occaisions have had
> other PC's kill each other (one was a "friendly fire" incident).

I've been part of a group who killed themselves....

If somehow is making a divebombing run on you in a vehicle using
aerodynamic lift, you do *not* want to merely kill the pilot. At least
not while he is in the dive.

Why? Because if you do, and haven't otherwise damaged the vehicle,
instead of just the bomb, you have the *entire* vehicle, with all its
fuel and weapons load impacting fairly close to the aim point for the
bomb.

Oops! That *hurts*. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 02:12:43 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller Software (hopefully) Available

In mail you write:

> Guys,
>         I have a hqx file, but I don't know how to decode it!!  Does anyone 
> know where I can find a net utility to decode this file type?  I ran 
> UUDecode 
> with no luck.  Thanks!

It requires Binhex. It's also probably a Macintosh file.

All the ones I have encountered start with a line that says something
like "this file requires BinHex 4.0 to decode", and that line is
*required* for the decoder to recognize the file.

On a PC the latest version is PCBinHex 1.3, which is available at
Uminn.edu and the Simtel mirrors.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 23:15:51 PST
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie

In mail you write:

>> > And if you think the pizza guy from down the street is going to
>> > make an adequate miner without training you're joking...chances
>> > are you're going to have to do a tough sell just to convince him
>> > even to do it.  
>> 
>> Two comments:
>> 1. Draft them (admittedly a last resort)
>
> Uh, last I knew, this was a democracy, and you can't draft people 
> into civilian jobs.  Now admittedly, you can raise wages for such 
> jobs to the point where it would be more attractive, and this is what 
> would happen long term, but you don't draft people to work for 
> Anaconda...

In case you hadn't noticed, this sort of situation *would* qualify as a
major emergency. And given both the Depression and WWII as precedents,
you'd better believe that in time of "national emergency" the
government *can* "draft" you into civilian jobs.

> I'm sure the governor of your state is going to love shipping the 
> National Guard to Slobovia to peel potatoes...  Get real.  Total 
> ignorance of economics here.  The governor of North Carolina is going 
> to especially love it right now cleaning up after a hurricane...

Funny, I don't recall ever seeing guard units called up for duty
outside a state that was suffering from a major disaster. I do notice
lots of them getting called from states that *aren't* in such a state.

Please allow for the use of some common sense.

> What are you smoking????  Man I want to live in your world...  There 
> are about 260 million people in the US.  There are 5 BILLION people 
> in the rest of the world.  Unemployment is currently running at 4.5%. 

Ahem. What have *you* been smoking? The "unemployment rate" in the US
has been a fiction since the 60s.

*Official* unemployment rates may be running that low. In case you
weren't aware of it, they quit counting you as unemployed if you are no
longer "officially" looking for work. There are quite likely *more*
people who aren't working but aren't counted as "unemployed" than there
are who are *officially* unemployed.

And that's not counting all the "under employed". Folks working at
minimum wage, but with the skills to do a lot better.

>  There aren't that many people who are free to ship off to take ALL 
> those jobs in the rest of the world...at least not without having to 
> be replaced at home...  And incidentally, you're going to need MORE 
> of them to do the same jobs that are done over here, due to lack of 
> automation, support services...

I suggest that you take a *good* look at the *real* employment
situation. 

In any case, you don't need to get *everything* going, and you can
prioritize things. First priority are the easy to restart things (like
oil fields) and the things that *have* to get restarted no matter how
difficult.

>> >> That's what it's going to be like on a typical colony world.
>> >> They'll have folks mining the minerals, and R&R facilities (aka
>> >> "mining town") nearby. They'll be linked to the rest of the
>> >> planet by some sort of transport net, be it sub-orbital shuttles,
>> >> or seagoing ships.
>> >
>> > Doubtful.  This is an oversimplification.  First of all, consider
>> > the type of people who are going to colonize a typical world: 
>> > Ambitious, greedy nobles who see an opportunity to squeeze miners
>> > into a little kish, and impressed labor, because the average
>> > factory worker, or teacher, or grav cargo carrier from 2 parsecs
>> > over isn't going to give up his comfortable, safe job for a nasty,
>> > brutish short life in a mine on the latest frontier world...
>> 
>> Better study history. The Belgian Congo was handled the way you
>> describe, but not much else.
>
> Yeah, I remember all those Model T's they used to crank out in the 
> Congo...and there are more Belgians in the Congo than Belgium too...  
> Yes, a lot of people went to the Congo, etc. but nowhere near as many as 
> there were natives in most of those places...

You *totally* misunderstood my reference to the Congo. It was the prime
example of the "robber baron" model of colonization during the late
19th & early 20th century. It fits *your* description quite well, and
as you note, it wasn't much good for *anything*. Thus, neither would
colonies run your way.

>> 1849 Gold Rush, to the Alaska Oil Boom. The guy at the local
>> McDonalds is quite likely to be *very* willing to go to this
>> frontier planet a couple parsecs away because he can do the exact
>> same kind of work and get paid ten times what he's earning now.
>
> Wow, Leonard we agree on something...  They're going to be paying 
> these guys 10 times as much, and guess what, inflation...increased 
> raw materials costs, layoffs as the result of lagging sales...

We seem to be able to learn. The Alaska boom didn't cause near the
trouble that the 1849 rush did. Of course, the fact that what was being
produced had *real* value, not just "artificial" value (gold is *not*
worth what gets paid for it, oil is)

>> Try again. You'll have low tech were low tech both does the job, and
>> doesn't use too many people. You'll have high tech where it is
>
> First of all, I sald they'd be importing technology, if you'd taken 
> the time to read the rest of my response, but they aren't going to 
> have the manpower to devote to manufacturing it locally, at least not 
> early on.  They are going to have to import it.

And I'll through your "economics" arguement right back at you. Given a
chgoice between high tech import, and low-tech locally produced, guess
which wins if both are adequate for the job? 

>> You *need* shuttles, both to handle the ground to space traffic
>> (orbit to orbit haulers are a *lot* cheaper!) and for some of the
>
> Utter nonsense.  We've been mining and shipping ore for 5000 years.  
> All you need is the mines, and a flat space of rock for ships to land 
> on...and some sort of vehicle/animal power to carry it from the mines 
> to the ships.  Heck, even low tech, you could simplify things.  Just 
> put the starport next to the mine...

And I'll "utter nonsense" right back at you. That may be what you do if
you are *exporting* the output of the mine. But there are going to be
mines producing material for *local* use. And it makes *no* economic
sense to waste a starship on hauling stuff point to point on the
planet. A "shuttle" type vehicle is a different matter.

And don't forget, it makes more sense to "refine" ore on-planet, and
ship anything "ingots" or the like than to ship raw ore.

And that puts you one step from starting to make things from the metal.

>> point to point traffic *on* the planet. The colony *will* spread
>> out, as the best areas for living and producing food are unlikely to
>> be near the major mineral deposits. So you need to be able to move
>> people and light cargo *quickly* (emergency equipment breakdowns,
>> medical emergencies, etc) which requires craft that might as well be
>> shuttles. You also need slower "buses" and "trucks" for hauling
>> large amounts of people or cargo.
>
> Yes, but remember, the Imperial model doesn't work AT ALL like this.  
> There are definitely low tech mining colonies, and for the most part, 
> you don't need weather satellites, shuttles, et al.  Especially if 
> your mining operations are concentrated in 1 small corner of the 
> world, which is most likely going to be what happens in the 
> beginning...

Only problem is, that won't be for things like metal production.
There's no way a low tech mine can compete with a high tech fusion
setup. Especially if they are shipping *ore* rather than *metal*.

If they are mining something like gemstones, that's different, but the
odds against anyone finding a gem deposit without having a *lot* of
people crawling around on the ground are pretty slim.

So the mines would be on planets that were being colonized for some
*other* reason. 

>> By "areas" I meant *regions*. To restate it: most of the people are
>> going to be *located* in the regions where most of the food is
>> produced and where industrial production takes place. 
>
> On a new mining colony, there aren't going to be a whole lot of areas 
> where there is agriculture or industrial production.  Take a look at 
> mining towns in the US.  Most of them are mines, homes for the 
> workers, and restaurants, markets, bars, etc. to service the 
> miners...that's about all...  

And there aren't going to *be* mining colonies of that sort. Please
tell me *what* they are mining with low tech means that is worth the
trouble? And how did they locate the deposit in the first place?

> I know what I'm speaking about here.  I have a pair of uncles who 
> live (and work) in mining towns to this day...

And would the town be there if someone hadn't found the deposit by
tramping over the ground? Even with advanced sensors, *damn* few
deposits are going to located via remote sensing. And the ones that are
are going to be stuff that is rather *large* (iron, copper..) that is
gonna be stuff that's not worth dealing with except via a high tech
mine *or* for *local* use.

>> It's unlikely that they will be producing spaceships or grav
>> vehicles. Or even stoves. But they *will* be producing housing
>> materials locally quite early. And the same goes for food. They'll
>> import a lot of stuff people are "used to", but local foods will be
>> exploited, simply because it's *cheaper*. Hunting/fishing at first,
>> as well as gathering any "wild" vegetation that is edible. 
>
> If there are housing materials and food to produce...  Not too much
> lumber on them vacuum worlds...  You could use the local rock, but
> you'd still need materials to hold it together...would the planet
> have lime? 

Vacuum worlds also require a rather high minimum tech level just to
survive. And the most likely building materials are going to be iron,
aluminum, and fused silica, all of which as *easily* extracted from
"random" chunks of rock (you can extract magnetite from the regolith
with a magnet!). Given a fusion raector and a few other things,
building materials are *easy*.

But you won't *have* mining colonies on vacuum worlds. They lack the
geophysical forces (mostly water) that create ore bodies.

> As for agriculture, I would agree, but again, not as much as you
> think early on in either sector and maybe none at all if the world
> doesn't have them...

If the world isn't suitable for normal agriculture, then you'll have
aeroponics and hydroponics as a *required* part of the life support
system! 

>> Concrete basicly requires a few rather common kinds of rock (common
>> on any planet that humans would *want* to live on) some rock
>> crushing gear, and the like. You need the rock crusher for gravel,
>> and for mining, so it's pretty much a given. You also need an "oven"
>> to roast the cement in. Again, pretty simple, and if you are
>> starting low tech, you can build it *very* low tech.
>
> There are a lot of worlds in the Traveller universe that humans 
> wouldn't *want* to live on...

And they require special reasons for people to live on them. As well as
a *much* higher tech level, just to *live*.

>> Plastics and structural steel are a somewhat different matter.
>> You'll need more gear hauled in to start up, but not as much as you
>> might think. 
>
> Wait a minute.  This is a mining colony...the analogy is a mining 
> town, not Detroit...  They aren't going to be able to produce 
> everything early on, their main focus is to mine those rare elements 
> for the developed industrial world which is Jump-2 away, not to build 
> their own industry...

*You* are assuming "mining colony". I am assuming a colony that is
mining as a way to pay for imports. A *much* different situation. And a
*lot* more justifiable than a "mining colony".

>> There are a *lot* of "high tech" items that can be produced using
>> mostly *low* tech, with only a few "high tech" items. For example,
>> you can produce modern steel alloys with a steel plant out of the
>> 1800s, just by adding some modern instruments to monitor some steps
>> of the process. 
>
> Irrelevant...

Not really. If they are mining some metal ore, it takes very little
extra to produce metal ingots. And very little beyond *that* to add the
ability to fabricate some things from the metal. 

>> No. I'm aware of economics. Including the fact that in a colony type
>> situation, *people* are going to be the expensive resource. "Slave
>> labor" doesn't cut it, especially if you need then to do anything
>> "technical". 
>
> No, you're argument is full of economic holes.  I do agree with you 
> on people being the expensive resource.  But remember, a while ago 
> you were telling me we were going to be drafting miners...kind of 
> going against your own argument...

That was in a *highly* artifical example. 

>> If you are going to use the "transportee" colony model (like parts
>> of Australia), then you either commit to shipping in *lots* of food,
>> or you make self-sufficincy for staple food products your number one
>> priority. And that *includes* being able to maintain whatever "tech"
>> is involved without large, steady imports of parts/fuel/whatever.
>
> This would depend on the hospitality of the world.  The reason I 
> suggest it would be lower tech is because it would be cheaper to 
> sustain the technology locally, without increasing imports beyond 
> already high levels...

You don't send transportees to inhospitable worlds unless you have no
alternative or you are willing to pay the *high* support costs. Unless,
that is, you are using it as a thinly disguised death sentence.

>> I still maintain that if the infrastructure is present, then your TL
>> <= PL rule is wrong. Once the population hits the millions, the
>> potential is there to support *any* tech level.And there will be a
>> tech level (higher than ours :-) at which the number of people
>> required to *maintain* the tech level starts going *down*. 
>
> Not any tech level.  Some maybe.  It is not a coincidence that the 
> industrial revolution occurred only after the population was closing 
> in on 2 billion people.  

Excuse me? The industrial revolution occured in the 1800s! And it only
involved *millions* of people. The only people outside of Europe
"required" were the folks raising cotton in India (which is what fed
the cotton mills).

I think you need to put aside your economics texts and look at some
history of technology. The "Connections" series is pretty good, even if
there are errors.

What is needed is a certain amount of infrastructure, not some specific
population.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:54:55 PST
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie (questions)

In mail you write:

> Hy Folks,
>
>         I was talking about my theories with an economy scientist
>         yesterday, and for building a better model than the one
>         in would tamers handbook several questions arise :
>
>         - do you think there will be a techlevel where the
>           diversity of things to maintain this techlevel
>           decreases ? (e.g. you need less people to sustain
>           tl 15 than to sustain tl 14)

Sure. As soon as you get "general purpose" robots, you don't need
*people* to build and maintain things, just the robots.

For that matter, look at *low* tech levels. It takes more people
working together to sustain an agricultural society (say ancient
Assyria) than it does to support a hunter gatherer culture.

But as you add in technology, you are decreasing the percentage of the
population devoted to raising food, and ditto for most other tasks. You
do increase the number of tasks, and often the resources. 

But as an example, you *cannot* maintain a Assyrian level culture with
less that 10,000 or so people! It takes that many to keep the
irrigation systems working! (along with the food storage and
distribution).

Yet 10,000 people in an area with the right resources can maintain a
late medieval early renaisance tech level too. Possibly later,
depending on what resources are available.

This sort of thing tends to be *cyclic*. Any given technology (and
agriculture *is* a technology) starts out as something that only a few
people do. Then as it improves, it takes more people to keep the
improved (but crude) technology working. Finally, when it matures, you
are back to needing very few people.

>         - what would be the rate of exchange between US$
>           and the imperial credit.

When? That is *which* "US$" and *which* Imperial credit? The 1850 US$
is not worth the same as the 1950 US$, and neither is worth the same as
the 1990 US$.

>         - would you agree to the following credit per
>           displacement table :
>
>                 Agricultural   :  3000
>                 Ligth Industry : 16000
>                 Heavy Industry : 12000
>                 Constructions  :  8000
>                 Raw Material   :  4000
>
>           I always felt wrong that a ton of food cost as much
>           as a ton computers, and used the "C64 Elite Game"
>           trade tables for mastering, for my formulars I need
>           some more general tables, and want to ask for cannon.

A ton of food could be a ton of wheat or rice (cheap) or a ton of
saffron (hideously expensive at around $5 per *gram*).

Same sort of argument goes for other things. And we also need to worry
about the difference between "bulk" (displacement ton) and mass (metric
ton). The ship has limited *volume* for cargo *and* limits on the mass
it can carry.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:44:55 PST
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie (answers)

In mail you write:

>> Orbital cities, yes and no. An orbital station and a small satellitie
>> network are *always* a good investment. It's a lot easier to have ships
>> unload stuff in orbit than on the ground. On the ground it usually
>> needs more protection! In orbit, all it needs is a tether and a "sun
>> screen". You shuttle it down when needed.
>
>         Do you know how many money maintaining a starport compared
>         to a downport mean. A colony would start with an class D
>         downport.

Where did I sauy "high port"? An orbital station suitable for a colony
is little more than a ship with no drive, and some extra living and
cargo space. Parking cargo in orbit requires a sunshade (cheap,
reusable foil) and a tether (cheap space grade cable). Or you can skip
the tether and use a 50 cent radar corner to make it stand out on radar.

>> I still maintain that if the infrastructure is present, then your TL <=
>> PL rule is wrong. Once the population hits the millions, the potential
>> is there to support *any* tech level.And there will be a tech level
>> (higher than ours :-) at which the number of people required to
>> *maintain* the tech level starts going *down*. 
>
>         IMHO its an illusion that computers reduce labor, they
>         increase them. I think that my asumptions (that diversity
>         increased by tech level) are rigth for tl<9. Its a question
>         of cannon if there is a tech level where the diversity
>         decreases.

Not computers. Automation. It takes *fewer* people to run an automated
production line than to run a non-automated one, for the same output.

Worst case example, once you reach the tech level that allows robots,
you can have robots producing robots and producing everything else. All
you need people for is supervisory stuff, and design work.

As long as you have a cvouple of robot production plants and the
robotic mines to supply materials, you are fine. Knock out the plants
producing the robotsm and people are in big trouble.

Also, note that in this scenario they are *maintaining* a technology,
not advancing. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #426
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Traveller-digest        Wednesday, 18 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 427

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs
         2. Re: PC Deaths
         3. Re: PC Deaths
         4. Unsubscribe hbill@primenet.com
         5. unsubscribe traveller-digest hbill@primenet.com 
         6. Big Scams
         7. Re: Re: RPG Trainging
         8. Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word...(LONG)
         9. [none]
        10. Re: Traveller Suite
        11. Re: Disppearing Games Shops
        12. Re: T4 Scouts
        13. CANON should be a 4 letter word
        14. Re: Disppearing Games Shops
        15. RE: Weird places to game...
        16. Re: [Noise] *Inago* Montoya, not "Iago"
        17. Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word...(LONG) -Reply
        18. Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word
        19. Dangerous Journeys?
        20. Random Bar Tables

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:58:53 PST
Subject: Re: Disppearing Games Shops (and I think I'm receiving TMLs

In mail you write:

> On 15 Sep 96 at 6:58, Leonard Erickson spewed:
>
>> how do you feel about Metamorphosis: Alpha?
>
> Don't recall Metamorphosis: Alpha, but its been about 17-18 years 
> since I played GW...

Metamorphosis: Alpha was GW's direct ancestor. It was A bit more
D&Dish, and it was set aboard a *huge* generation ship that'd had an
accident. I rather suspect that it owed a lot to the short lived 70's
SF program "The Starlost".

While you'd have to do a MAJOR rewrite, I think it'd be an interesting
thing to do to some players. They find this ship that is an ellipsiod
about 20x30x5 *kilometers*. "Decks" are hundreds of meters tall, and
mimic natural environments. But the surviving animals and passengers
(sometimes hard to tell which is whic) have been affected by exposure
to high radiation of some unknown type. Areas of the ship are still
contaminated, and there's all this tech that nobody knows how to fix,
but a few know how to run...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:19:07 PST
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

In mail you write:

> As a GM would you let it happen, and how would you handle the
> aftermath?  Divine retribution? <g>

I'd let it happen. And unless there were some sort of oaths involved,
I'd leave any retribution to the players.

I spent *far* too many years gaming with a group that *forbade* PCs to
attack each other, regardless of the justifucation.

Remember the bit with the idiot insulting the Samurai? The same player
(if not the same *character* was *continually* doing stupid things.
Like when attacked by some ochre jelly, and realizing that fire is one
of the effective attacks, he fireballs them. Never mind that he and the
rest of the party will all be *inside* the fireball (narrow corridor).
Half the party died, many of the rest took damage. He saved. 

In real life, he'd have had an "unfortunate accident" not long after,
if he wasn't slain out of hand. Instead, the DM told us we were *not*
allowed to try killing him, then or later...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:05:01 PST
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

In mail you write:

> Eris Reddoch said: Deaths
>>
>>I've got a slightly different set of questions to pose...
>>
>>Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?  

I alnost had one of my PCs kill another. My character was a Samurai,
and didn't approve of the way the party was going to torture a prisoner
for info. He couldn't talk them out of it, so he volunteered himself
for guard duty so he wouldn't be watching. That made one of the other
players get paranoid. He accused my character of planning to desert
them, or let in enemies or some such.

My character drew himself up and said "I have given my word as a
Samurai to act as part of the party."

The other character started to make a comment that *everyone* knew was
going to be "I'm not sure that's good enough". Everyone (except the
idiot playing him) was also aware that about the time he finished
saying hit, my character would have drawn sword and decapitated him for
the insult. And then taken my chances with the rest of the party.

The idiot got as far as "I'm.." before he was *forcibly* silenced by
other characters who figured that we didn't need a war just then. :-)

I've also had a character who essentially committed suicide (by
attacking a demon prince on his own turf) to "atone" for having had to
bug out on a party. It worked. It saved the party. He died, but hey, he
did what he had to.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: hbill@primenet.com (bill hutchinson)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 06:12:13 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Unsubscribe hbill@primenet.com

unsubscribe hbill@primenet.com

------------------------------

From: hbill@primenet.com (bill hutchinson)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 06:20:52 -0700 (MST)
Subject: unsubscribe traveller-digest hbill@primenet.com 

unsubscribe traveller-digest hbill@primenet.com

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 18 Sep 1996 14:32:46 GMT
Subject: Big Scams

> Now what would really 
>entertain me is to see some PCs design an elaborate scheme -- breaking laws
or 
>not.  

Back in high school I had the pleasure of refereeing two big scams.

In the first, the players decided to be thieves - stealing from the rich and
giving to the poor (the latter was their insurance policy: they figured that
if they were caught they'd be able to plead for leniency because of all the
hospital's they'd built).  As a cover, they decided on a music band that was
reviving the ancient Terran style of 'stone music' - so, appropriately
enough, began the "Crime of the Century" tour.  Thefts always took place
during the concert, so they could cover for each other (hard to tell who was
who under the costumes and makeup), and were timed for the song "Crime of the
Century" if possible.  Great fun.

In the second, one of the players decided that he would have more fun
stealing from PCs, so he conned them out of their starship.  They got mad,
stole another starship, chased and caught him intending to space him, and he
conned them out of the starship while they had a gun to his head in the
airlock!  After the game they couldn't quite remember why they let him do it,
except that it seemed a good idea at the time.  (If any of you have met Gary
Gregor, you'll understand how he did it.)

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 18 Sep 1996 14:44:38 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: RPG Trainging

>Just make sure that the 'acting skill' of the people involved doesn't play
>a big part in determining their chances for success (or failure)...
>otherwise, I'd hate to role-play with the likes of Marlin Brando or Robert
>DeNiro  :-)

No problem.  I still use their character's skills, I just insist that they
role-play the character.  I don't care if they can _do_ a German accent, but
they have to try.  (And I still get laughs when I say "mad Russian", as the
remember my attempts to do a slurred Russian accent!)

Then there was the T2k game we did (Castle by the Sea).  Eddie Kim was on
point, loaded for a small war and sneaking through the caverns in the dark. 
I told him to close his eyes and mime how he was moving so I understood what
his characetr was doing. (Standard technique I use, BTW.)  While he was doing
this I snuck up behind him and clutched his pant leg.  He jumped a mile,
whirled around and leveled his 'rifle', then cracked up - I was on my knees,
sucking my thumb, playing a scared 3-year-old boy!  So there's Eddie, hunting
through his grenades, ammo, spare guns, knives, and C4 for a candy to make
the boy feel better (so he doesn't scream).  Then the whole group of
rough-tough warriors had to role-play convincing a small child to 'play
soldier' and keep quiet (Eddie wouldn't let anyone hurt 'his' boy).  One of
the best games we ever had.

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:05:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word...(LONG)

On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

{BIG Rant snip - some good points here}

> If you view the previously 
> published material as a bible, then imagine the Bible, if you tore out a few of the 
> Psalms, a couple of the Prophets, maybe that whole Jonah & the Whale thingy, 
> and tried to pass it off as the Bible...then imagine if 1 of the 
> books of the prophets told you that all of the previous stuff in the 
> old testament was wrong...GRR!

The Bible analogy is ironic.  Those who study the bible academically (of
which my wife was one for a short time) tend to argue not only about which
books of "The Bible" are valid or came first, but how those books are
interpreted and translated, and what else was probably included as part of
what we call "The Bible" that was excised in the course of history for its
"sacreligous" content by the powers that were.  

"Canon" (which is a term referring originally to religious works) for the
bible nowadays depends very much on which religon you belong to.  Jewish
Canon includes the Torah (old testament I believe) plus a tremendous
number of works dating from long ago/at the time the Bible was written
(i.e. the Dead Sea Scrolls for example) up through relatively recent works
of exceptionally wise people.  Catholic Canon also includes a tremendous
amount of older material, plus the New Testament.  Islam adds to (not
replaces) the Canon with the Koran.

At one point some smart aleck on this list made a reference comparing the
three (at the time) versions of Traveller to the three Biblical religious
groups;

CT= Old Testament
MT= New Testament
TNE = The Koran

So; 

CT Players = Jews
MT Players = Christians
TNE Players = Moslem

Does that make all of us T4 Players "Jews for Jesus"?

Pete
Who can't help pointing out irony when he sees it.



------------------------------

From: tc@library.solent.ac.uk (Timothy Collinson)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 15:19:22 GMT
Subject: [none]

Page 1
~EXTERNALREPLIED : traveller@MPGN.COM

- ------------------------------
Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com> wrote:

>> (she'd only asked to 'play' to find out what on earth I
>> went on about all the time!).

>Good on You!

I must admit, a mother of two teenagers working as a social
worker who assesses the elderly and their 'care' needs and
frantically busy youth leader of a church, doesn't strike me
as the 'average' Traveller player that leaps to my mind.  But
why not?

Considering her job involves visiting elderly care patients
who may have died in the height of summer and not been found
for 10 days, (yes, this really did happen), a bit of
'escapism' probably doesn't go amiss.


>> "odd places"

>How 'bout the dining room of a Carl's Jr resturant or a transmission-repair shop? I've
>run games in both kinds of places, the latter because it had a barge table and it was

Sounds good, but what is a 'barge' table?  Come to think of
it, I played a game once sitting on the boundary of a cricket
pitch watching Mike Gatting and friends.  For the
non-UK/Commonwealth/ex-Commonwealth folk
here, this is ideal because a) the average cricket match is
several hours (even days) and b) in between each ball bowled
is a lot of sitting around waiting for the next ball to be
bowled.


>after hours, the former because it had a AYCD beverage bar.

I'm guessing this means All You Can Drink

If so, do you *really* have such places???

Timothy

------------------------------

From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 10:33:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller Suite

I agree wholeheartedly with the "GIMME NOW!!!, I'LL EVEN TAKE THE RADICAL 
STEP OF PAYING FOR IT!!!" response to the idea of the suite, with one 
reservation:

You _WILL_ release a macintosh version, right?  RIGHT??!??


Ross Coburn
ross@odyssee.net

------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:50:26 -0700
Subject: Re: Disppearing Games Shops

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> CCG's have taken a little away from the RPG
> market, but eventually, CCG people are going to realize that strip it down
> to the basics, and they're playing a card game, nothing more and nothing less.

<Flame Retardant Suit On>
At the risk of starting a flame war, I must take exception to the above 
comment. I have been playing Traveller since the days of the little black 
box, as well as other RPG's, but CCG's have captured my imagination like 
nothing else since those early Traveller days.

<Rant Mode On>
It isn't *just* a card game. When one plays Bridge, Cribbage, Poker or 
any other card game, you are playing with abstract little clubs, 
diamonds, hearts and spades and the *same* 52 cards.

With CCG's, you construct your own deck, and as you play it, that deck 
develops its own personality. Sometimes its personality is different from 
that you intended when you first built it!

But I've always found, no matter which game I play, that there is a story 
developing. Each game has its setting and characters, and in each game 
the players struggle for supremacy, or mere survival. Sure, it's even 
more abstract than most RPG's, and there is no verbal narrative (unless 
someone watching or playing supplies it :-) but the narrative is played 
out during the game and in the minds of the competitors.

I challenge any one to say the same about Bridge! (The great mage 
Ckhron-thos bids 2 Spades, steeling himself for his opponents 
rebuttal...)

<Rant Mode Off>

> Nothing in the world quite equals the dynamic storytelling nature of a good RPG,
> where referee and PC's together weave a story.  For this reason, RPG's as a
> hobby will never die.  But IMNSHO, just throwing a good product on
> the shelves, without supporting it, isn't going to work like it has
> in the past.  I've converted 3 new players to Traveller in the last several
> months.  I've got a couple of other people I plan to work in during
> the next few months...  Far from dying, I am beginning to think they
> may be about to undergo a renaissance...

Ah, this is where we agree.

RPG's will never die. Neither will other forms of Role-playing, be they 
the Society for Creative Anachronism, Improvisational Theatre or a host 
of others... But just as reading a fantasy novel is a more abstract and 
less free-form way of role-playing, so too is playing a CCG. (Although I 
would say a CCG is even more free-form than RPG's, as well as more 
abstract than a novel)

<Flame Retardant Suit Off>

- --Glenn Hoppe
"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana." -- Groucho Marx

------------------------------

From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 18 Sep 96 15:58:52 EDT
Subject: Re: T4 Scouts

Lan writes:
>Does anyone know the historical background and or reasoning for
>not giving the IISS retirees a pension?
  In my campaign it is easy: You Never Leave The Scouts, you just
go on detached duty. Since, technically, you are still a scout (you can
be called up and) you have access to free fuel and facilities at any
Scout base. That can often be worth a lot more than any pension.

>The premiss is that the TAS awards membership based upon heroism or
>extraordinary service.
  No, no, you have it the wrong way around. TAS does not award membership
for _anything_. They are not a public service, just a private club. When you
get a "TAS Membership" benefit it is because your chosen career has
bought it from TAS on your behalf.

    Cheers,
       Jo

------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:15:23 -0700
Subject: CANON should be a 4 letter word

Joe and Stu expressed some thoughts about the meaning of CANON

Here then is my not so humble contribution.
[After all, I am a Traveller referee and player since 1978 :)]

CANON is useful in forums like this wherein many people from many =
locations and many gaming backgrounds discuss, mull over, debate, argue, =
praise and worship the science fiction role-playing system which will =
certainly have been attributed, by the historians of the year 11 of the =
Third Imperium, to be the crowning achievement of mankind in orbit =
around that most precious orb, Sol, before their discovery of the jump =
drive.

My point, CANON is nice to have but who really uses it outside of forums =
like this. Can't be many of us. Look at all the house rules we come up =
with.

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:16:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Disppearing Games Shops

Glenn, you should have kept that flame retardant suit on, if you are going
to imply that card games of ANY kind are role playing.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:19:54 -0700
Subject: RE: Weird places to game...

Someone said "one of" the weird places they gamed was

5:  In the same room as two women having sex.

I could understand role-playing or playing games but not gaming.


------------------------------

From: athol-brose <cinnamon@one.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:29:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [Noise] *Inago* Montoya, not "Iago"

> *set geek_mode = true
> In a previous TML digest, someone made reference to the character "Iago
> [sic] Montoya" from the movie "The Princess Bride".  The character's name
> is "Inago", not "Iago".  
[...]
> *set geek_mode = false

<GEEK CLASS="FURTHER">

The name is properly spelt "Inigo".

</GEEK>

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:32:16 -0400
Subject: Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word...(LONG) -Reply

>"Canon" (which is a term referring originally to religious works) for the
>bible nowadays depends very much on which religon you belong to. 
>Jewish
>Canon includes the Torah (old testament I believe) plus a tremendous
>number of works dating from long ago/at the time the Bible was written
>(i.e. the Dead Sea Scrolls for example) up through relatively recent 
Actually, the Dead Sea Scrolls are some of the oldest copies we have of
some of the Old Testament books. They refute some of the arguments
brought forth by "liberal" scholars, who would argue, for example, that
there were two Isaiahs that were edited centuries later by the Rabbis into
one book. The copy of Isaiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls predates any copy
we had before, and it is all one book. 

End of interlude, back to Traveller!

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:37:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word

The only CANON I am sure to always use it the big nasty laser that is
pointed at my players right about now...ooops, they don't know that ;)

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:44:33 -0500
Subject: Dangerous Journeys?

Hey.  I was wondering if anyone here had Dangerous Journeys.  I have found a
copy and thought of picking it up, but I was wanting some input first! :)

Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:46:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Random Bar Tables

On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

> Hal Carmer said (among other things):
> >
> > By the way, anyone ever do a list of Bar names on different worlds???
> >
> 
> No, but do you realize that bar hopping is probably the one common thread that 
> liks ALL role-playing games together?  I've played with guys who wouldn't be 
> caught dead in a real bar, but their characters go into bars every time they 
> leave their ship.  Of course, depending on the genre, they will go into a 
> drinking establishment whenever they get into town.
> 
> I thought I would make a random bar encounter table since PCs spend so much 
> time there, we might as well streamline that part of the adventure.
> 
> hmmm...
> Random Bar Encounter Table (1d6)
> 1. player gets drunk.
> 2. player gets drunk and passes out.
> 3. player gets drunk, pukes, and passes out.
> 4. player gets drunk, passes out, and player's wallet gets swiped.
> 5. player gets lucky
> 6. player gets drunk and lucky.
> 

Come now, we can do better than that!

Random Bar Encounter Tables; 

Table 1 Drunkeness (assumes active intake)
By the end/middle of the evening the character is (2d6)
2. Passed out under a table, +8 on the Getting Lucky Table
3. Really Drunk plus has other intoxicants (appropriate to character and
location) in her/his system.  Actions are very uncontrolled. +6 on Getting
Lucky Table.  50% chance of forcible emptying of stomach contents
4. "Quite Drunk", other intoxicants optional (25% chance).  +4 on Getting
Lucky table. 10% chance of forced stomach content ejection.  Actions
uncontrolled.
5. "Toasted", +2 on Getting Lucky Table, Actions are poorly controlled. 
6. "Buzzing", +2 on Getting Lucky table, Judgement is very impaired.
7. Tipsy, Judgement impaired, +1 on "getting Lucky" Table  
8. "High", Euphorics are primary intoxicants, judgement impaired, +2 on
getting lucky table.  Happy feeling with 5% chance of a paranoid event.
9. "Flying", Euphorics, Judgement truly unreliable, +3 on getting lucky
table.  20% chance of a paranoid event.  
10. "Wicked High", Truly stratoshperic, Occasional belief in ability to
fly without a grav belt, Judgement nonexistant.  50% chance of a paranoid
event, +4 on the getting lucky table.
11. "Crashing", A bit overdone, rather than wanting to fly, this person
wants to die.  Paranoid events are 100% likely, 50% chance of mixed
substances which could lead to stomach ejection (25%) which will probably 
make this person feel better anyway.  +6 on get lucky table.
12. "Doing the Belushi", Get this poor sod medical treatment.  State:
Comatose, definite mixed substances present.  


2. The Get lucky table
Bars are often a place where people go to get picked up.  However, they
are not often a good place to go to get picked up.  Reroll results which
do not make any sense for the setting.

2A. How Lucky
Apply the get lucky DM from the drunkeness table.

2. Character goes home with the most attractive being (of their
preference) in the place (which is not always saying much).  They have a
beautiful experience together.  Subsequent events to be decided by the GM.

3. Character goes home with an attractive being (add 4 to partner type
roll.  The experience is excellent.
 
4-6. Character Goes home with someone.  add 2 to partner type roll, The
experience is rated on a d10 roll, "10" being excellent, "1" being
impotent.  Use positive DM from drunkeness table as a negative DM on the
experiance rating.  If the character did not imbibe at all, add 3.

7-9. Character is rejected.  They may roll again at the very end of the
night with a +4 "desperateness" penalty.

10. Character goes home with someone, anyone, out of desperation or
intoxication. Use the same method of rating the experience as in 4-6, but
with a -2 DM.  Generally a cheap encounter.  no modification to the
partner type table.

11. Character sleeps with "something that moves".  50% chance that they
have sex in a restroom or phone booth (or other appropriate setting).
Always a cheap experience.  Apply a -2 to the partner type roll.  Apply a
- -4 to the experience rating roll.
 
12. "I remember Going home with this person, but not what happened when
we got there."  Character blanks or blacks out when at the scene of the
encounter.  Apply a -5 to the experience roll (for the other participant,
the character remembers nothing).  If not intoxicated, the character is
"slipped a mickey" by their potential partner.

13. "Oh my god, who is this next to me and where am I"  The character
remembers nothing after entering the bar the night before.  Partner roll
is at -3 (effectively random).  just roll a d6 for the experience rating.  

14. "Oh my god, *WHAT* is this next to me and where am I"  Apply a -5 to
the partner roll.  If human, This partner is quite scary and potentially
(50%) dangerous (per the GM, one suggestion : Obsessive directed at the
character).    
 
2B. Partner Type (2d6)
Use this table to determine whether the characters lover is male, female
or alien (if alien, roll without modifications, if another alien results,
this creature is from an alien race without the usual two sexes, GM should
make something interesting up).

Example, A (generally) heterosexual human male rolls a 5 on this table,
lover is a human male
 
2 or 3 "My Alien Lover" 
4 to 6  Contrary to Usual preferences 
7 to 12 Usual Preference

(Note: Characters should determine their level of homophobia/heterophobia
or xenophobia and react as is appropriate to such an encounter)

Optional Modifiers;

If you use charisma, A character with a high charisma should get a -1 for
every point above 8 on the Getting Lucky table.

If chasing a specific person, events should be decided by the GM.

The getting Lucky table assumes the character is actively seeking a sexual
encounter.  If they are not, but are "quite drunk" or "flying" or worse,
roll anyway.  If they still aren't rolling, there is a 50% chance
(modified by +5% for each charisma point over 8, -5% for each charisma
point below 6, and 5% for each SS point over 9) they will be hit apon by
someone else.  use the drunkeness and partner type tables to determine the
state of the potential lover.

Certain people seem to always be able to find just the lover they want on
any place, at any time, no matter what their state.  This often goes along
with a high charisma as well.  If the GM decides a PC or (more likely) NPC
leads such  "blessed" life, give them a -3 to -8 modifier on the get lucky
table, as appropriate.

If a character expresses no sexual preference (or rather, expresses that
they prefer one sex no more than the other) use the Lover type table to
determine only whether the lover is alien, then roll gender randomly
(50-50).

Cheap Slut Bonus. (aka "Rob's DM").  Someone with a reputation for
"sleeping around" has a higher likelyhood of getting the cheap end of the
encounter table, and of getting any at all.  apply the -4 desperation
modifier to anyone who fits this category, and allow them to make a second
roll if they are rejected at the same DM.

Persuasion, Act/Bluff, etc.  Certain skills can modify the rolls on this
table.  Depending on the version of traveller you use, apply the skill
level (not asset) for persuasion skill as a dm to the getting lucky table
(subtract the skill level from the roll) and to the partner type table
(add the skill to the roll).  All modifiers are additive by the way.
Other skills should be treated the same way if the GM decides they are
applicable.

See, I told you we could do better!

Pete 


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #427
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Traveller-digest        Wednesday, 18 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 428

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Star Maps
         2. Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word
         3. *Inigo* Montoya, not "Inago"
         4. RC Cults
         5. Re: Water in the desert...
         6. Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word...(LONG) 
         7. Re: Disppearing Games Shops
         8. Re: Disppearing Games Shops
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #426
        10. Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word -Reply
        11. Re: Star Maps 
        12. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #422
        13. Re: Bar Names
        14. Calling Glenn Grant...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:56:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Star Maps

Glenn Grant <pawn@CAM.ORG> writes:

> An astronomer at RICE university has a web-page devoted (in part) to the
> LISM, or Local InterStellar Medium, with detailed, beautiful, color .jpg
> maps of our region of space, seen flat-on, looking 'down' from Galactic
> North...
        ...
> Look for it at:
> 
> <http://spacsun/rice.edu/~twg/lism.html>

Glenn, could you please verify this URL?  My copy of NetScape indicates
that it is invalid (specifically, that "spacsun" isn't a recognized
site name.)

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.  
   When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
                                 - Barry Asmus

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:03:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word

On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Mark Ayers wrote:

> Joe and Stu expressed some thoughts about the meaning of CANON
> 
> Here then is my not so humble contribution.
> [After all, I am a Traveller referee and player since 1978 :)]

Arrgh.  Out-ranked again. :P


> CANON is useful in forums like this wherein many people from many 
> locations and many gaming backgrounds discuss, mull over, debate, argue, 
> praise and worship the science fiction role-playing system which will 
> certainly have been attributed, by the historians of the year 11 of the 
> Third Imperium, to be the crowning achievement of mankind in orbit around 
> that most precious orb, Sol, before their discovery of the jump drive.

True, we all need a common frame of reference when discussing 
Traveller... as with any other topic.  So there /is/ a reason to have 
"canon."  But, how much of the material should be "canon?"

I think I have a solution.  Let's mandate that everyone here buy every 
single Traveller item produced by IG, use ONLY those items, and never 
have any house rules or third-party rules whatsoever.  If you're not 
willing to do this, then you don't belong on TML.  [Stern Glare]

Yeah, that'd work. :)


> My point, CANON is nice to have but who really uses it outside of 
> forums like this. Can't be many of us. Look at all the house rules we 
> come up with.

Yup.  I think the #1 favorite activity of TML participants is rules 
tinkering.  :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:06:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: *Inigo* Montoya, not "Inago"

> From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 23:55:09 -0400 (EDT)

geek_mode++;

> In a previous TML digest, someone made reference to the character "Iago
> [sic] Montoya" from the movie "The Princess Bride".  The character's name
> is "Inago", not "Iago".  

Nope.  "Inigo" -- tilde on the 'n'.  Pronounced something like 
"in-YEE-goh".  "My name is Inigo Montoya.  You killed my father.  Prepare 
to die."  "Stop *saying* that!" :)

And by the way, PB was a book long before it was a movie.  Should be 
required reading, too.

> FWIW, the name "Iago" belongs to the villain in Bill Shakespeare's "Othello,
> Moor of Venic".  

That would be Venic, the outer moon of Mora/Mora/SM?

geek_mode--;

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Author of Orb: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/orbinfo.html
   |    Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 12:09:01 -0400
Subject: RC Cults

Hi,
In the RC setting, the planet Lucifer is a haven for crackpots mystics
and all sorts of wackos.  I figured all those wackos needed some wacko
groups to join, so I made up a few.  I tried to write them from the
perspective of the group, so when I say Blipdooppop destroyed the
Ancients, this is what her followers think. I am not changing Traveller
Canon.  These are just quick sketches of the groups, feel free to
add/subtract/ and mutilate for your own purposes.  Or if you have a
wacko group of your, I'd love to see it.
Lewis Roberts

Phos/Skotos: Phos is is the god of light and good, his counterpart is 
Skotos, the god of darkness and evil.  Phos promises that the virtuous 
will reside in paradise for eternity.  Skotos promises power in the 
material world and in the hereafter for those who will help him in
his foul plans. The Vampires serve him, and the Virus was his handiwork.
    Divine Journey Enterprises goes out into the Wilds and trades the
natives high tech equipment. They also preach the gospel of Phos
while they are there.  They resell the native goods back in the RC,
using the proceeds to finance more missions into the Wilds.  The 
company has two far traders, Divine Guidance and Phos' Will.  The 
church is fairly wide spread, and has upwards of 5000 members on
Lucifer and a sprinkling in the Wilds.  
							
Natural Philosophy Society: The Society is less a religion, and more,
as its name suggests, a group dedicated to espousing a philosophy.
They believe that magic is real, and they can cast spells.  They 
try to cast spells that will help the RC overcome its problems.
They have seven small chapter-houses across Lucifer, and a major
house in the capital.  The local members gather at their house every
seventh day. Each chapter-house gathers on a different day of the week,
so that one of the chapter-house is always active.  At their meetings
members teach each other the magic principals that they know, and 
decide which spells the Chapter-house will work on casting.  Most spells
take many weeks of preparations, and involved gathering many different
exotic substances.  Finally when a spell is to be cast, the group
travels to the Motherhouse, and casts it there.  The Motherhouse is
centered on the intersection of several powerful Ley Lines, so any
spells cast there are much more effective.  Individual group members
may cast spells on their own, but they are much more effective as a 
group.  The group is rather benign and seeks to help Lucifer and the
rest of the RC.  It has over a thousand members on Lucifer, and not many
elsewhere.

Blipdooppop-Blipdooppop is an Elder God. She existed long before the
Ancients, and will exist long after humanity has ceased to be.  
She is awesomely powerful, and demands that all intelligent beings
worship her.  The Ancients refused, and she destroyed them.  Before
they died though they were able to use some arcane technology to 
lock Blipdooppop in another dimension where she is unable to help
her followers.  Her believers are split into two camps, those who 
seek to free her and those which seek to prevent this.  Those who
wish to free her, believe that she will grant them eternal life,
and domain over the rest of the humans, when she conquers the universe.
The others also believe that she will destined to conquer the universe,
but wish to prolong it to a time when they are long dead.  
    The two groups do agree that the Hivers are her most dedicated
servants.  This causes the Hivers a great deal of confusion, when
strange humans come up and ask how they can help serve the Great
One. The Hivers act very confused by this, but the followers of 
Blipdooppop assume it is all a very carefully crafted plan of the
devious Hivers.  Both groups have about 2000 members.

Cult of the Star: The Cult believes that their guru, Seala Borgun, is 
the avatar of the Divine Spirit.  As such her word is law, and 
they follow here every wish and command.  Unfortunately for her
followers Seala is quite mad.  She has them do absurd things, which
they happily do.  She once had a hundred of her followers dress
in animal costumes and dance up and down the main thoroughfare.

Anelimism-Anelimism is not an organized religion that believes in
a divine being that must be worshiped, rather it is a philosophy,
that guides its followers through life.  Anelimism says spirits inhabit
all objects. Objects are represented both on the material
plane and on the spirit plane.  The followers of Anelimism respect 
those spirits and always ask their permission before destroying
an object. The destruction of an object also destroys the spirit.
The followers are saddened by any destruction, and take great joy
in the creation of new objects.  All objects have a spirit part, even
crude objects such as roads, buildings, and vehicles.  The Anelimists
treasure skills such as painting, sculpture, woodworking, 
   Anelimists occasionally will ask favors of the spirits, such as
asking the spirit of a car to continue working until the supplicant
is home safely.  The supplicant will then later make an offering to the
spirit.

Church of Stellar Divinity-The Church of Stellar Divinity is wide
spread throughout the Imperium, it believes that Stars are divine
beings and need to be worshiped.  If a believer is faithful, after
his death, his spirit will merge with the stars.  On Parvid a 
heretical branch of the church sprang up. This branch believes that
the stars are at war with each other, and that people from other planets
are followers of another star, and must be destroyed.  The branch of
the church that existed on Luhtala, took this heresy one step farther
and believes that it is the duty of all believers to help fight the
war against the other stars. 
     Before the Collapse, the group was actively seeking to locate
a working copy of the mythical star trigger. (See Darrians)  With
such a device, they could destroy entire stars, and help Lutala's
star, Amicron, win supremacy.  
	One possible plot is for the Church to fly in to an enemy star
system and fire canisters of radioactive waste in to a star.  They
realize this won't destroy the star, but feel that it might weaken
the star enough so Amicron might take advantage of its momentary
weakness.  
	The Church also wants to make a device in which they could
actually enter the atmosphere of the star and commune directly with
Amicron.  For a possible design see the book Sundiver by David Brin.
	
Angar-The Angar worship a pantheon of gods. They believe
that nature is a mirror of the Gods. Reality reflects the nature
of the gods.  If one of the Gods was to die or be changed, reality
would also be changed.  Many of the faithful believe that such
that Tulko, god of Voyages, died and this caused the collapse.
Now that the RC is rebuilding society, they believe a new god
has emerged and is helping restart voyages among the stars.  This
new god's image, shows a sixfold symmetry, much like a hiver does.
(I haven't created a full pantheon of gods, I was going to take
a list of gods from the Finnish gods, in the AD&D book, Dieties and
Demigods Cyclopedia, change the names and appearence and eliminate
a few inapproriate gods.  Any other pantheon would work as well.)

Academy of the Mind- The Academy believes that they can teach 
anyone to be a psychic.  They detest the term psion, saying
that it reeks of Imperial propaganda.  They use many crystals,
pyramids, and weird herbs in their lessons.  They don't try
to teach telekinitic arts, or others that have a definite impact
on the material world, rather they teach empathy, fortune telling
and the use of mental powers to offset illness.  (ie. things that
can't be proven not to have worked)  The Academy is 130 years old.
The Imperials, carefully investigated the group, and determined that 
they were frauds, and harmless. The Academy claimed to have used
mind control on the Imperial Inquisitors.

Church of the Ancients- The Church of the Ancients believes that the
Ancients took humanity from ancient Terra and scattered them among the
stars for a reason.  The Ancients were fighting a war against an 
powerful enemy, when they forced the Enemy to flee to another dimension.
The Ancients decided to follow the Enemy and make sure of his destruction.
Before they left they spread humanity across many different star systems
so that they would be assured of at least some of the humanity	
							   

Church of the Ancients-The Church believes that the Ancients were 
wise and benevolent creatures, who took humanity from its homeworld,
of Terra in order to teach it a better way.  Before the Ancients 
could enlightenment humanity, they evolved onto a higher plane.  
The Church seeks to continue the enlightenment of humanity.  
They try to figure out the process in which the Ancients evolved
onto a higher plane, by examining whatever Ancient artifacts that
they can get their hands on.  These artifacts are extremely rare,
and the Church guards them carefully.  Many members have been 
conned into buying clever forgeries.  
	The Church recognizes that the Ancients also took and genetically
engineered Terran wolves, into Vargr.  The Church honors and accepts
the Vargr as fellow sapiens on the path towards enlightenment.  Droyne
were also known to be servants to the Ancients, and the Church 
accepts them also.  
	Church members seek to enlighten themselves through meditation.
They often use replicas of Ancient artifacts in their meditations.
The Church is favorably disposed to the RC, and believes that it
can help enlighten the rest of humanity.  The Church often sponsors
missions to recover known and suspected Ancient artifacts.

I also thought that the Disciples of the Bright Way, as recently
presented by Michael Barry, made an excelent addition to this list.  
I added the feature that looking at Jump space made people mentally
unbalanced people, just so I could use those wackos.
 

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:09:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Water in the desert...

On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

> I've been working on some trade routes in the Lunion subsector and noticed 
> that seven systems have a zero hydrographics percentage.  I figured with that 
> high demand, drinking water transport must be a fairly big business, 
> especially in the Lunion subsector.  My question is, what sort of factors 
> would come into play when shipping drinking water to a dry world?

<snip snip>
> 
> A captain of a subsidized merchant could clear an easy 2 million credits per 
> trip!  All he would need is to run a fire hose from a hanger in Derchon or 
> Lunion and fill his specially fitted cargo bay to capacity and viola!  His 
> ship could be paid off in no time...
> 
> Unless Ianic can locate water from an alternate source, or it is provided via 
> another method, it seems like water transport is a gold mine for characters!
> 
> What other factors should I take in consideration to balance out this seeming 
> inequity in things.  Ianic has a population in the millions!  How could they 
> supply their TL 5 society with enough drinking water every day for their 
> people, livestock, agriculture?  (not to mention coolant for their vehicles, 
> wet-cell batteries, bathing, cooking, manufacturing, etc.)  It seems to me 
> that every day must be a crisis for these people unless the planetiod belt is 
> full o' icey chunks. 
> 

Coupla Possibilities and clarifications;

A world with a hydrographics rating of zero does *not* necessarily have no
water.  The range is for zero to 9% (I think) of the *surface* of the
planet.  This would (If I recall correctly again) include water trapped in
ice caps.

The amount of drinkable water on Earth which is art of our hydro rating is
probably less than 1%.  Most of our water is in unpotable oceans (and a
significant part of the remainder in being poisoned by industry - but
that's another story).  We have immense underground reserves of clean h2o
available for drinking, washing, etc.

So the rating may not reflect the actual availability of water, only the
percentage of surface area which is water.

Another possibility is that they have much less water available, but still
plenty for the population's drinking needs.  This culture would substitute
other products for water whenever possible in industry, and in daily life.
Dune's culture would make a good example of this.

A third possibility is that they have found some new and interesting way
of making or gathering water on an otherwise waterless world.  Some may be
trapped in subterrainian ice around the poles (which, being subterrainian,
wouldn't show up on the Hydro rating) suspended in the air (and
collectable) or perhaps there are large available hydrogen and oxygen
supplies (in the form of hydrochloric acid seas and iron oxide mines)
ahich allow the domestic production of water (albiet expensively - but not
as expensively as shipping it in).

Yet another possibility for high tech societies is that the population is
orbital (or primarily orbital) and water is perfectly or near perfectly
conserved in the closed artificial ecosystem.  Occasional injections (due
to unavoidable regular loss) of new material can be provided by mining icy
bodies in the system (or gasses on/in planets).

Or, finally, you may be right and they may be importing water in huge
quantities from out-of-system.  I find this last possibility economically
very unlikely.  What is it that brought people to this system in spite of
the enormously high cost of just living?  Why so many people?  Perhaps
some enormous disaster eliminated all the water without killing all the
people and now they are in the midst of a relief effort?

Also, could water be better shipped as compressed gasses to be combined at
the destination?  Water (If I remember right) does not compress well in
its liquid form.  But I bet there is a better way to transport it than in
that form.

Pete   


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:11:50 -0400
Subject: Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word...(LONG) 

Apologies for something that has nothing to do with Traveller, but
for general information I would like to offer some corrections to 
Peter Brenton's remarks about Biblical canon.

>"Canon" (which is a term referring originally to religious works) for the
>bible nowadays depends very much on which religon you belong to.  Jewish
>Canon includes the Torah (old testament I believe) plus a tremendous
>number of works dating from long ago/at the time the Bible was written
>(i.e. the Dead Sea Scrolls for example) up through relatively recent works
>of exceptionally wise people.

The Jewish canon is identical to the Old Testament as found in Protestant
Bibles, though the material is organized somewhat differently.  It does 
not include the Dead Sea Scrolls.  These were written after the last 
of the Jewish scriptures were written; however, the Dead Sea Scrolls 
include some of the oldest copies of some of the books of the Jewish canon.

The Torah (= "the Law") is the premier *part* of the canon, the first five 
books -- Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, also called 
the Pentateuch.

The "relatively recent works" are probably the Talmud and the Mishnah.
These are commentaries ON the canon, and have a lot of authority in 
Judaism, but not as much as the canon itself.

>Catholic Canon also includes a tremendous
>amount of older material, plus the New Testament.  Islam adds to (not
>replaces) the Canon with the Koran.

The Catholic canon contains a *small* amount of additional material, called 
the Apocrypha by Protestants.  These are a handful of short books and 
additions to books, all placed in the Old Testament.

Islam regards the Jewish and Christian scriptures as corrupted and no 
longer accurate, and therefore as NOT canonical, or certainly as nowhere 
near as authoritative as the Koran.

There.  Sorry.  Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Earl Wajenberg



------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:24:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Disppearing Games Shops

On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

> Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> > CCG's have taken a little away from the RPG
> > market, but eventually, CCG people are going to realize that strip it down
> > to the basics, and they're playing a card game, nothing more and nothing less.
> 
> <Flame Retardant Suit On>
> At the risk of starting a flame war, I must take exception to the above 
> comment. I have been playing Traveller since the days of the little black 
> box, as well as other RPG's, but CCG's have captured my imagination like 
> nothing else since those early Traveller days.
> 
> <Rant Mode On>
> It isn't *just* a card game. When one plays Bridge, Cribbage, Poker or 
> any other card game, you are playing with abstract little clubs, 
> diamonds, hearts and spades and the *same* 52 cards.
> 

(SNIP)

> I challenge any one to say the same about Bridge! (The great mage 
> Ckhron-thos bids 2 Spades, steeling himself for his opponents 
> rebuttal...)
> 
> <Rant Mode Off>
> 

First off, I agree with much of your post.  There is nothing wrong with
CCGs, having played Magic and NetRunner I prefer the latter, but;

Bridge is one of the most exciting games I have ever played.

Now, don't snicker.  Bridge among those who know how to play approaches
Chess in its mathmatical strategic precision, poker in its blankfaced
bluffing, and rpgs in its edge of your seat tension and cliffhangers.  I
have never had as much adrenalin flowing as when I'm waiting for my
partner to lay down his hand (as dummy) after bidding up to 6 No Trump in
a fierce bidding war, hoping I interpreted his bids correctly.  Or waiting
to see if the 12th club will fall, making my 5 of clubs the thirteenth,
and therefore the winning trick.

Bridge is awesome.  I assume that my lack of enthusiasm for CCGs (I enjoy
them, but frankly can't understand their popularity) is due to a lack of
experience with ardent players.  Please realize your opinion of bridge is
similar.

Pete

P.S. The most dramatic Bridge players I met were A woman in her late 60's
and her partner, who was also her mother.  I learned not to mess with
them!




------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:18:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Disppearing Games Shops

I think the intent was to say that CCG's just another kind of gaming, NOT that 
it's a RPG in any way.  Haveing never played one, I don't have a personal 
opinion on how GOOD they are...  Although, they might be OK to kill time that 
you can't really do with a full blown RPG.

Matt C

------------------------------

From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 12:29:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #426

Well, I suspect that, should Ianic (for example) not have a ready water 
source in-system, the Forces of Economics (TM) would kick in:

People need a LOT of water, and cr10/liter is a little steep.  It is also 
a constant need.  Ergo, once a week or omth or whatever, the 
Megacorporate Megalith With Thrusters drops by (read: bulk carrier for 
you straights) and unloads a rediculous amount of the stuff for a saner 
sum, but still awfully profitable.

So there. . .  Problem solved (and PC fortunes evaporated!)


Ross
ross@odyssee.net

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:54:23 -0400
Subject: Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word -Reply

>The only CANON I am sure to always use it the big nasty laser that is
>pointed at my players right about now...ooops, they don't know that ;)

WHAT??????!!!!!!

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:12:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Star Maps 

I found a typo in the Web address.  It's really:

	http://spacsun.rice.edu/~twg/lism.html
not
	http://spacsun/rice.edu/~twg/lism.html

(There's a period, rather than a slash, after "spacsun".)

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: "RODERICK DARROCH ELLIOTT" <elliot_r@LSA.Lan.McGill.CA>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:13:46 EST
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #422

Ross Coburn wrote:

> >In other words, the breaking of laws is for convieniece only -- to take a 
> >shortcut to reach a goal.  It's these kind of law-breakers that get caught 
> >(either by the authorities or by other bad guys).  Now what would really 
> >entertain me is to see some PCs design an elaborate scheme -- breaking 
> >laws or 
> >not.  
> 
> Boyd, _PLEASE_ refrain from asking things like this, because you only 
> serve to encourage at least one of my players who lurks on this list.  
> It's bad enough when they're winging it; elaborate plans send me 
> running for Tylenol (preferably the almond-flavoured variety. . .).
> 

     Better start reaaching for that Extra-Extra-Extra Strength 
Excedrin, Ross... Since we blew up the ship this particular plan is 
now moot, but I think that it's funky enough to share with the list.

     For those of you who aren't in on what went on, here's the 
background: crew was hired for a delivery run at vastly below fair 
rates without being told that the route taken would involve three 
triple jumps into deep space.  Crew decides to get even, but the bank 
rep who set it up has two nasty bodyguards along.  So here is 
what I came up with to solve the problem:

1) Arrive on Lanth.
     a) acquire a contraband weapon

2) Find a member of the local underworld.  Propose to pay him 50% in 
advance to do the following:
     a) hire a gang of toughs and act as go-between/blind for my character
     b) get a hideout and inform my character of its location
     c) plan gang's kidnapping of the bank rep and inform my character of it.  The 
         plan is to include suitable roughing up of my character, who is to 
              i) be present
              ii) be left behind as the gang make their getaway
     d) plan is also to include expecting and  firing blank or non-lethal rounds at 
         the eventual rescuers, the crew, following which gang is to 
         make a safe getaway, which rescuers will allow them to do.
             i) alternatively, have some gang members firing lethal 
                munitions at the bodyguards
     e) whacking of bodyguards during kidnapping  is an optional 
         bonus, if feasible

3) Once go-between has reported that the kidnapping has been 
accomplished, whack him and drop him off a pier

4) Knowing the location of the hideout, have my character, during 
period before the ransom demand is delivered, spot one of the 
kidnappers.
     a) Mug said kidnapper (coincidentally having a crewmember along 
         as muscle) and extract the information from him. In order to 
         alleviate risk of having him spill the beans, make sure the fellow 
         crew-member is the paranoid junkie pilot, who'd go along with it in a 
         flash. Once interrogation is finished, drop the body off a pier.
     b) plan rescue raid with fellow crew-members, who are to be kept 
         in dark as to the non-lethal nature of the opposition.

5) Execute rescue mission, going in loaded for bear; whack all 
members of the gang.  Use the contraband firearm (see 1) a), supra) 
to whack bodyguards during the raid.  Plant the weapon on one of the 
dead gang members

6) Comfort the no-doubt hysterically relieved bank rep.

7) Ask for a raise.

     The fun thing is that this could possibly be accomplished 
without any other crewmembers being involved.  If successful, the 
PC's would look like heroes, probably get raises, and have the coast 
cleared somewhat if they eventually decide to hoist the black flag 
and start slitting throats :).
*-----------------------------------------------*
| R.D. Elliott... ...elliot_r@lsa.lan.mcgill.ca |
*-----------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 18 Sep 1996 18:11:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Bar Names

>  By the way, anyone ever do a list of Bar names on different worlds???

I had a noble character who frequented the Quilted Giraffe on Regeina.  Can't
remember the city name (guess that shows where he did most of his business). 
Actaully, that was an interesting campaign - he led a team of self-appointed
troubleshooters around the Spinward Marches, tracking down and destroying
stray munitions from the Fifth Frontier War, especially weapons of mass
destruction.  The Quilted Giraffe was our meeting spot for briefings and new
missions.

------------------------------

From: "RODERICK DARROCH ELLIOTT" <elliot_r@LSA.Lan.McGill.CA>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:21:07 EST
Subject: Calling Glenn Grant...

     Hey Glenn, did you at one time happen to room with the infamous 
Dr. Enigma, creator of Reptilian Super-Science, and dispenser of the 
Bio-Electric Blast that fried Ross Coburn's old PC?

    The rest of you:  never mind.  You're better off not knowing.
*-----------------------------------------------*
| R.D. Elliott... ...elliot_r@lsa.lan.mcgill.ca |
*-----------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #428
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Traveller-digest        Wednesday, 18 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 429

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #425
         2. Core Subsector
         3. Re: Dangerous Journeys?
         4. Bar Table
         5. Re: Star Maps
         6. Re: Disppearing Games Shops
         7. Re: Disppearing Games Shops
         8. HELP!!!
         9. Re: How does your game taste? 
        10. Re: Core Subsector
        11. Re: Canon, Migrating Stars, Core Subsector...
        12. Re: Stu's Rant
        13. Copyright Question for IG
        14. More T4 newbie questions, somebody please answer!
        15. Re: Core Subsector
        16. RE: Bar Encounters...
        17. RE: Random Bar Tables
        18. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #419
        19. Re: Weird places to game...
        20. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #427
        21. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #427
        22. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #417
        23. Announcement: Imperium Games is Moving

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:31:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #425

>
>Doug's "Sloop John B." chorus inspired me.  Presenting...
>
>      "Solomani Girls"
        This one hurt.

        Is anyone compiling this stuff? We could do a net.book of TRAVELLER
filk songs.
        I'll bet SPACE MASTER doesn't have cool songs like this...
                                        Allen


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:59:52 -0400
Subject: Core Subsector

>So my question is:  If this is the Core subsector from Year 0, why have
>the Syleans (apparently) only expanded coreward? Why have they not even
>sent basic scouting missions to the rest of the systems in their vicinity
>when they've expanded several subsectors in every other direction?  Should
>I modify the background I'm designing to fit this subsector in?  Or will
>it turn out to be the Core subsector from -500 Imperial?  If that's the
>case, then I've wasted some effort if I try to shoehorn it into my
>background. If it turns out to be the core subsector from Year 0, then I
>need some explanation as to it's layout which seems to violate either
>Traveller's history or common sense.

First of all, remember who wrote the Imperial Encyclopedia-it was the guys
from DGP who largely wrote it. If the Sylean Federation had controlled an
entire sector in Year O, there would be no need to explore or map the
sector! And exploration and discovery is what this is all about. My
suggestion is: either wait for the Mileau 0 book to come out in December, or
assume that this is all there is of the Federation (although there may be
more member worlds coreward in the next subsector). One sector, if properly
explored, will keep a group busy for some time. I would pretty much assume
that everything DGP wrote about the Core sector is null and void.
        Another option is to assume that an AREA of the sector hasn't been
explored for some reason, but the rest has.

Allen


------------------------------

From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:42:28 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Dangerous Journeys?

On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> Hey.  I was wondering if anyone here had Dangerous Journeys.  I have found a
> copy and thought of picking it up, but I was wanting some input first! :)

Be warned:
	1.	This is NOT Traveller
	2.	The advanced rules are BAD.  We're talking Gygax first ed 
ADD bad.
	3>	Because of 3, The advanced rules need to be rewritten by 
the Dm.



Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 14:05:14 -0400
Subject: Bar Table

>Random Bar Encounter Table (1d6)
>1. player gets drunk.
>2. player gets drunk and passes out.
>3. player gets drunk, pukes, and passes out.
>4. player gets drunk, passes out, and player's wallet gets swiped.
>5. player gets lucky
>6. player gets drunk and lucky.

Excuse me, shouldn't that be "CHARACTER gets drunk..."?


------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:06:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Star Maps

Mark Cook wrote:
> 
> Glenn Grant <pawn@CAM.ORG> writes:
> 
> > An astronomer at RICE university has a web-page devoted (in part) to the
> > LISM, or Local InterStellar Medium, with detailed, beautiful, color .jpg
> > maps of our region of space, seen flat-on, looking 'down' from Galactic
> > North...
>         ...
> > Look for it at:
> >
> > <http://spacsun/rice.edu/~twg/lism.html>
> 
> Glenn, could you please verify this URL?  My copy of NetScape indicates
> that it is invalid (specifically, that "spacsun" isn't a recognized
> site name.)
> 
>         - Mark C.

the correct URL is : <http://spacsun.rice.edu/~twg/lism.html>

(Replace the "Slash" with a "Dot")

	-- YA-Glenn

------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:12:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Disppearing Games Shops

Peter H. Brenton wrote:
<SNIPPY-POO>
> Bridge is awesome.  I assume that my lack of enthusiasm for CCGs (I enjoy
> them, but frankly can't understand their popularity) is due to a lack of
> experience with ardent players.  Please realize your opinion of bridge is
> similar.

I had no intention of slamming Bridge at all. My tounge was firmly in cheek 
:-Q

I have played Bridge and I love it, too (though my experience is lacking, 
an obscure Central-canadian card game called Kaiser is my forte') I was 
just using Bridge as an example of a standard, abstract card game.

	--Glenn Hoppe

"  Do I contradict myself?
   Very well, then, I contradict myself;
   (I am large--I contain multitudes.)"
		-- Walt Whitman

------------------------------

From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:12:30 -0700
Subject: Re: Disppearing Games Shops

Tom Ellis wrote:
> Glenn, you should have kept that flame retardant suit on, if you are going
> to imply that card games of ANY kind are role playing.

I *did not* imply that CCG's *are a kind of* RPG's in any way shape or form 
(at least I didn't intend to ;-) What I was trying to say is that CCGs are a 
valid expression of Fantasy or Science fiction story-telling, and an 
enjoyable game using a Fantasy/SF setting (IMHO of course, to each his/her 
own). i.e. they are not just simply "a card game".

In the CCGs case, it's more random than RPGs (Like rolling on encounter 
tables to see what critters and equipment appear) but events that occur to 
the characters represented by cards are still controlled by the players. 
CCG's are more similar to Miniatures war games and some computer strategy 
games (eg. Chaos Overlords) than they are to RPGs--Therefore I contend that 
CCGs are _similar to_  but _absolutely not in the same category as_ RPGs.

Hope this clears up the muddification.

	--Glenn Hoppe

"  Do I contradict myself?
   Very well, then, I contradict myself;
   (I am large--I contain multitudes.)"
		-- Walt Whitman

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 14:51:54 -0400
Subject: HELP!!!

        I'm going to be running two sessions of TRAVELLER at a con in Ann
Arbor, MI on the 26th and 27th of October. I am strapped for ideas! It has
to be a four hour session for up to six characters. I'd like it to really
show off the new TRAVELLER to it's best advantage (although I'll be using
the RPSC system and not the one in the rulebook). If any of you highly
creative individuals could help me out here, I'd appreciate it. The
adventure has to be either generic or set in Year 0, and should involve
exploration as per Scouts or an independant team of explorers. To prevent
anyone who is going to U-Con from seeing the ideas, send them to me not the
list; we can post 'em after U-Con is over.
        U-Con, by the way, is being held at the University of Michigan
Student Union October 25-27. Steve Winter of TSR is one of the guests of
honor, and Richard Garfield, creator of Magic the Gathering (of all
Disposable Income) will be there, running an "official" tournament. Let's
have a good TRAVELLER turnout and beat back the evil darkness of CCG's!
(Just kidding, guys.)
                                Allen

------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:54:36 -0500
Subject: Re: How does your game taste? 

> ------------------------------
> 
> From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:26:01 -0400
> Subject: Re: How does your game taste? 
> 
> Our game has been running for years, blending SF and fantasy, with 
> something like "Dr. Who?" for glue, and has been consistently mission-
> based.  The PCs are rescuers.  Very often, they save worlds of 
> various sizes (all of human-related history through all the continua
> of hyperspace being the largest so far; our first was just one space 
> station).  Sometimes, they are called on to get their friends' bacon
> out of various fires.  The PCs always answer the call; they sometimes 
> grumble, but they always answer.
> 

[snip a hilarious account!]

Ellen (my wife) was reading this over my shoulder and out of nowhere
says something like 'What would be really neat would be to have them
called in somewhere where they think they're saving the world, only they
were called by the evil group, and see if they could figure it out.
<chuckle>'.

I don't know if I want to play in this lady's games when she gets enough
experience to start refereeing ...

	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: athol-brose <cinnamon@one.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:01:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Core Subsector

My general question about all this is: if Sylea is in the upper left hand
corner of the subsector map -- well, what about those subsectors in that
direction? It wouldn't make much sense to have exploration flowing in only
one direction...

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 07:12:19 -0800
Subject: Re: Canon, Migrating Stars, Core Subsector...

On 18 Sep 96 at 2:31, Charles Collin spewed:

> Hi all.
> 
> Well, I'm not sure, but I think I may have pissed off a bunch of
> people with my little complaint about the Core subsector in T4.  

Actually, you didn't piss me off...  3 or 4 people in a row, 
complaining on exactly the same topic kind of did...  But I'm not 
really mad at anyone.  I just think that the list sometimes shows 
signs of suicide by canon...

> But now here's my problem:  I'm trying to come up with a background
> set in Year 0.  I would like it to fit as much as possible with the
> stuff that IG has/is/will be published (I know I don't _have_ to,
> but I _want_ to, okay?). So I want to fit the Core subsector as
> published into my version of the nascent 3rd Imperium. 

Frankly, I don't know that we're going to know a whole lot until 1st 
Survey gets published.  I'm pretty much holding off on running any 
kind of a year zero campaign until we see what comes down the pike 
from IG...

But I definitely understand your dilemma...

> According to the information I have from the Imperial Encylcopedia,
> Sylea controlled an entire sector in Year 0.  This sector presumably
> included the Core subsector and about 15 other subsectors around it.

Here's 1 of those inconsistencies.  Somewhere else, DGP's write up on 
Core sector showed only about a dozen worlds possessed by Sylea...

Good questions...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 07:12:19 -0800
Subject: Re: Stu's Rant

On 18 Sep 96 at 1:00, Hal Carmer spewed:

>   By the way, anyone ever do a list of Bar names on different
>   worlds???

Actually, the names of bars in my games tend to be kind of a long 
running joke, examples of black humor...

A selection of names from over the years:

The Severed Limb
The Blasted Planet
Wasted Space

There are others that I can't remember off the top of my head, but 
they're definitely a long running gag (cliche?).  It's on another posting, 
but I like the RANDOM bar encounters table...  

Anybody get the feeling that most Traveller PC's die at about 50 from 
cirrhosis of the liver???  If the nasty rogue Imperial agents don't 
get 'em, the rotgut whiskey will...  :-)

BTW, just to make things different, I'm often want to run a couple of 
sessions where the players important NPC meetings occur places other 
than a bar...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:21:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Copyright Question for IG

Here's another copyright question for the powers that be at IG.
Since I put out the latest version of the Galactic Sector Viewer
last month, several people have contacted me telling me that they
are manually entering more sector data, and some of them expressed
an interest in having their work appear in the program's next
release.

The folks who contacted me are:
Dakin Burdick (burdickd@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu): Magyar Sector
Stu Dollar (sdollar@goodnet.com): Dk. Nebula, Diaspora, Dagudashaag
J.D. Burdick (JD.Burdick@t-online.de): Fornast
Michel Boucher (alsandor@netcom.ca): Beyond, Vanguard Reaches

(As an aside, Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca) has
also been of immense help in enabling the program's sector
generator to include the option to use alien names files for naming
worlds in randomly generated alien sectors.)

Now, many of the aforementioned sectors are being created using
sector data and/or world names that were gleaned from official
Traveller supplements (or, in Mike's case, Paranoia Press Traveller
supplements). What I'm wondering is, am I allowed to include these
sectors, seeing as not all the data came from DGP's GEnie archive?
I would really like to include these seven sectors with the next
release of the program, but I don't want to step on anyone's toes.
Of course, the program will be distributed free-of-charge, and I'll
be happy to make all the appropriate disclaimers just so people
know that I'm not trying to usurp anyone's copyright or trademarks.
In short, is this okay?

jimv@empirenet.com

PS: Gal 2.1 is available at http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv


------------------------------

From: Matt McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 14:18:45 -0500
Subject: More T4 newbie questions, somebody please answer!

> From: "Matt Lewis" <lewis@griffin.co.uk>
> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:14:20 +0100
> Subject: More T4 newbie questions, somebody please answer!
> 
> A few more questions...
> 
> When changing careers, can a character apply to one he has already served 
> in, and can he apply to one he has been previously turned down from at an 
> earlier date?

I would generally say no, unless your campaign had a good reason for
allowing it, and then only after a term or two elsewhere.   Of course,
the easy way would be just to add an additional -DM to the roll.

> 
> When mustering out, do all terms served count, or only those served in the 
> current career?

Definitely all full terms.  You may wish distribute mustering rolls
among the tables of the services according to the number of terms served
in each service.

> 
> When mustering out benefits include the yacht or lab ship, does the 
> character have to pay for them, like the free trader, or does he get it 
> free, like the scout?
> 

In CT Supp 4, the lab ship is supplied by a scientific foundation and
not disposable by the character, similar to a scout ship.  All it says
about the yacht is 'as described in book 1'.  Since I found no yacht in
book 1, I have no idea.  There is a 200t yacht (base price 51 MCr) in
book 2, but no reference to it as a benefit.  I'd probably say use the
merchant ship payment guidelines.  Give that young noble a reason to be
out and about ;-)

> All help appreciated.

Hope this helps!

Matt McL

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:16:41 -0800
Subject: Re: Core Subsector

On 18 Sep 96 at 13:59, Susan M. Shock spewed:

> First of all, remember who wrote the Imperial Encyclopedia-it was
> the guys from DGP who largely wrote it. If the Sylean Federation had
> controlled an entire sector in Year O, there would be no need to
> explore or map the sector! And exploration and discovery is what

First of all...  Not strictly true...  Most of Imperial Encyclopedia 
was a collation of Library Data from previous works.  Supplements 8 & 
11 of CT, various adventures, supplements, et al from the various 
supplements and adventures.  Not a whole lot of it was DGP's 
directly...

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 19:21:40 UT
Subject: RE: Bar Encounters...

Charles Collin spewed...

>Wait, you mean you can get lucky in a bar _without_ getting drunk?  That's
>not very realistic!  :-)

This is a science FICTION RPG...   (my only defense)
;-)>
						---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 19:41:56 UT
Subject: RE: Random Bar Tables

Peter  H. Brenton said:

> <alot>
>
>See, I told you we could do better!
>
>Pete 

Somehow, I can tell that your'e a TNE ref/player*.

					---Boyd

*(this is a reference to the, IMO, unnecesarily complex/over-complete TNE 
rules)      ;-)>

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 16:23:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #419

 Lewis Roberts asks...

 ::>I had a question for Jeff Zeitlin, about his Freelance Traveller.  I
 ::>like writing up ships, Npcs, world write ups and the like, but I
 ::>usually send them straight to the TML, from there I hope someone puts
 ::>it in their web page, or saves it to disk.   I was just wondering what
 ::>relationship you saw between your Freelance Traveller and stuff put on
 ::>the TML.  Hmmm that doensn't quite say what I am thinking....  I guess
 ::>what I am wondering is why I should send it to you and not the TML.
 ::>That sounds much harsher than it should, but I can't figure out a
 ::>better way to say it  right now.  Guess I am not feeling very literate today.
 ::>:)

 Why not send your work to _both_?  Freelance Traveller is
 designed to be a strictly electronic "Magazine" for Traveller,
 and a resource of high-quality material, just as JTAS is for
 printed material.  Freelance Traveller doesn't require
 exclusivity (both because of my personal philosophy and because
 I'm not allowed to pay for submissions, or charge for the
 magazine), and will provide an easy-to-remember source to point
 your browser at (how does
 http://www.dragonfire.net/~FreelanceTraveller/ sound?).  In a
 way, FT can act as one of several "core" support sites for
 Traveller, as Sunbane and GEnie did in the past.  The fact that
 Sunbane had a lot of stuff didn't prevent material from showing
 up on other's ftp sites or web pages; neither should FT.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ We are the MILITIAS....Our Government is the MALICIOUS.

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:36:32 GMT
Subject: Re: Weird places to game...

On Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:35:33 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
> 
> >Weird places to game over the years...
> 
> >1:  A friends' dads auto parts business...
> 
> >2:  A tent on a camping trip in high school...  (By Coleman lantern, 
> >no less)
> 
> 3:  In a stairwell during Army Basic Training at Ft. Benning, Ga.
> 
> 4:  The back of a station wagon at an all-weekend Grateful Dead concert...
> 
> 5:  In the same room as two women having sex.

Err... could you reiterate on #5?

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 16:41:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #427

>
>Hey.  I was wondering if anyone here had Dangerous Journeys.  I have found a
>copy and thought of picking it up, but I was wanting some input first! :)

AVOID IT LIKE THE PLAGUE!
                                        Allen


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 16:03:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #427

>From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
>Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:46:00 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Random Bar Tables
>
>Come now, we can do better than that!
>
>Random Bar Encounter Tables; 
>
<<<...snippage...>>>
>
>See, I told you we could do better!
>
>Pete 

ROTFLOLOLOL!!!!


Pete, I think you should publish these!  I say the "Sex Rules" for D&D
somewhere, maybe you could come up with those for Traveller too and sell the
two in a single product, the TTTC (Totally Tastless Traveller Companion)


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 18:17 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #417

In-Reply-To: <9609161150.AA10088@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< I've got a slightly different set of questions to pose...

Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC? >>

Yes, both accidentally and intentionally. In a very early Traveller 
game, a Vargr went psycho and blew away about half the group, and 
there've been more recent occurrences in Trav (unsuccessful) and 
Cyberpunk (most successful).

<< Have you ever done it yourself?  >>

No, but i've had it done to me!

<< As a GM would you let it happen, and how would you handle the
aftermath?  Divine retribution? <g> >>

I try to change the Player's mind, but if he's determined there's not 
much I can do to stop him. Nasty things tend to happen to the PC later, 
though...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 16:43:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Announcement: Imperium Games is Moving

I just got off the phone with Ken Whitman, who said that IG is moving 
to a new location, about 10 miles from their current address.  This will 
put them inside the town of Lake Geneva (they are currently just outside 
the town).  

Their phone number, as published in T4, will work for the next six months 
or so.  Their new phone number, when it becomes available, will be on 
their web site.

They will be doing the move the rest of this week and this weekend.  So 
if you aren't able to get through to them during that time, it's probably 
just because they're going through the madness that accompanies moving! :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest        Wednesday, 18 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 430

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Inigo & Venice...[Noise]
         2. Bar names
         3. Re: More TRAVELLER Songs
         4. Re: 
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #422
         6. Startown Bars: The Common Denominator
         7. T4
         8. I have seen the Hardback
         9. PBeM-What is it?
        10. More stuff for sale...
        11. Traveller-digest mailing list
        12. Dangerous Journeys
        13. Re: Dangerous Journeys?
        14. Re: Bar Encounters...
        15. Re: Water in the desert...
        16. Re: Con Scenario
        17. Dawn and Established History
        18. I'll Drink Another Have, Bartender...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:58:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Inigo & Venice...[Noise]

(Sigh)...Try to do a public service...  :-)

Franklin


------------------------------

From: "David A. Nelson" <34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 18:07:41 EDT
Subject: Bar names

In my simi-campain RCES type on Trybec hang out in the god forsake palce in the
 deseart north of the starport call: "Ponch's Happy Bottom Riding Club".  This
place has a number of triditions.  The RCES crew who has gone furthest out into
 the wilds getts a free steak dinner.  Also the picture of every RCES crewmembe
r who died out in the wilds has his picture on the wall.
                                     David Nelson
                                It's ok were staff

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:23:48 -0700
Subject: Re: More TRAVELLER Songs

Susan M. Shock wrote:

> 
> How about this?
> 
> THE HIVER TECHNICAL ACADEMY FIGHT SONG  By David Nelson and Allen Shock
> 
> Hiver Technical Academy
> We manipulate our way to victory
> Hiver Technical Academy
> We fumigate out larvae reg'larly
> When the game is on the line
> And the clock is ticking 'way
> The Ithklur fight and the Hivers might
> If they're far enough away
> Hiver Technical Academy
> We manipulate our way to VICTORY!
> 
> This actually has music, too, but I don't know how to comunicate that over
> the list!
> (it would probably work with any typical college fight song march)
> It's amazing how silly some people can get while playing TRAVELLER...
> 
>                                 Allen

Thank you, Allen!!!

Now, just do _Hivers_ sing the song?  :)

Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:41:29 -0700
Subject: Re: 

Timothy Collinson wrote:
> 
> Page 1
> ~EXTERNALREPLIED : traveller@MPGN.COM
> 
> ------------------------------
> Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com> wrote:
> 
> >> (she'd only asked to 'play' to find out what on earth I
> >> went on about all the time!).
> 
> >Good on You!
> 
> I must admit, a mother of two teenagers working as a social
> worker who assesses the elderly and their 'care' needs and
> frantically busy youth leader of a church, doesn't strike me
> as the 'average' Traveller player that leaps to my mind.  But
> why not?
> 
> Considering her job involves visiting elderly care patients
> who may have died in the height of summer and not been found
> for 10 days, (yes, this really did happen), a bit of
> 'escapism' probably doesn't go amiss.

Can't hurt . . .
> 
> >> "odd places"
> 
> >How 'bout the dining room of a Carl's Jr resturant or a transmission-repair shop? I've
> >run games in both kinds of places, the latter because it had a barge table and it was
> 
> Sounds good, but what is a 'barge' table?  Come to think of
> it, I played a game once sitting on the boundary of a cricket
> pitch watching Mike Gatting and friends.  For the
> non-UK/Commonwealth/ex-Commonwealth folk
> here, this is ideal because a) the average cricket match is
> several hours (even days) and b) in between each ball bowled
> is a lot of sitting around waiting for the next ball to be
> bowled.

The word should have been "Large." A _large_ table . . . .
> 
> >after hours, the former because it had a AYCD beverage bar.
> 
> I'm guessing this means All You Can Drink
> 
> If so, do you *really* have such places???

Yep. I go to that one all the time ;)
> 
> Timothy

Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:21:38 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #422

Kelly St. Clair wrote:
<<snipperoo>>
> 
> I think we had this character in the TML PBeM, years ago... as I recall,
>   he was put out of OUR misery early on when his player went inactive.
>   That wouldn't have been you, Steve?
> 
> Then there's the filk I came up with shortly after TNE came out:
> 
> "Deyo!  Deyyyyo...
>  Virus come and it wrecka my home
>  Deyo!  Deyyyyo...
>  Virus come and it wrecka my home.
> 
>  Lucan an Strephon and Dulinor, ho!
>  Virus come and it wrecka my home
>  Civil war 'cross the Imperium, ho!
>  Virus come and it wrecka my home.
> 
>  Hey, Mister Hiver mon,
>  Tell me what to do now
>  Virus come and it wrecka my home
>  ..."

NICE!!! Given that the Virus and the Deyo circuits are related, this has a nice ironic 
ring to it.
> 
>  and so on.
> 
> Another idea I've had recently, though not exactly a filk, is a
>   video montage of the Rebellion set to "Land of Confusion" by
>   Phil Collins/Genesis:
> 
> "I must have dreamed a thousand dreams
>  Been haunted by a million screams
>  But I can hear the marching feet
>  They're moving into the street
> 
>  Now did you hear the news today?
>  They say the danger's gone away
>  But I can see the fires still alight
>  They're burnin' into the night..."

Thanks, Kelly!

Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 18 Sep 96 15:08:14 MS
Subject: Startown Bars: The Common Denominator

Lots of traffic today.  Everybody decide to hit the Mountain Dew bottle at the 
same time?  Well, I'm glad to see the list has finally managed to slam right 
into the lowest possible common denominator for Traveller players and refs; the 
Starport Bar.

>By the way, anyone ever do a list of Bar names on different worlds???

Here's ten of the odder ones from my notebook (I make these things up during 
the game session, write them down, and maybe use them again later):

1.  The Humble Vargr (destroyed by one of my players' Vargr PC w/ stolen 
FGMP-15)
2.  The Gaseous Anomaly (VERY high-class, hidden in a large hologram of a 
nebula)
3.  The Drop Capsule (first drink free for Marine drop troopers)
4.  The Lifeboat 
5.  The RockDropper (guess what inspired _this_one)
6.  Jump Sickness (unsettling animated holosign out front)
7.  Commando's Leg (with a preserved severed leg of a Zhodani commando out 
front)
8.  Norris' Nostril (This one was in Vargr space, built in a huge (20 meter 
tall) bust of Duke Norris' head.  The entrance was up some stairs and through 
the nostrils.)
9.  The Tender (huge club inside a retired X-Tender at Glisten)
10. Cafe Terra (a chain of bars all over the Imperium, with robots dressed as 
Solomani/Terran historical figures.  Very BAD historical research; party was 
served by Albert Einstein dressed in a WWII German Officer's uniform with 
american insignia, for example)

Some notes on bars that I use for "quickie bar generation" for a Startown bar.
Classes of Bar:
1.  Nightclub - Ultra-swanky place; where the elite meet to eat.  Starport 
needs to be Class A or B, and world needs to be High population, Rich or a 
sector/subsector capital.
2.  Inn - A very nice club, frequented by semi-rich and upper middle class 
types.   Any starport of type A, B or C will have one, if the UPP population 
digit of the world is 4 or higher.
3.  Tavern - Your typical blue-collar establishment.  Holoscreens with local 
sports, pool tables and GravBall Simulators.  Every starport has at least one 
of these (I usually have at least 1 per UPP population digit).
4.  Dive - Similar to a Tavern, but about 50 years older and 75 years dirtier.  
The clientele tend toward the seedier ends of the spectrum, with occasional 
slumming forays by the rich and famous.  You know; the usual place for the 
party to unwind.  Every starport has at least one of these (I usually have at 
least 1 per UPP population digit).

Size and Sundry Details
Determine the number of tables, the number of people at the bar, the presence 
of games,  the presence of live entertainment and the presence of "working 
girls" (guys/sophots.etc).
Tables = UPP Population Digit x 1d6 (1d6-6 tables are open at any given 15 
minute period)
Patrons at Bar = UPP Population Digit x 1d6 (there are 2d6 -6 spots open at the 
bar)
Games = Different tyes of games = 2d6 - UPP Law Level.  Live gambling or gaming 
machines present if  2d6 - UPP Law Level > 0
Live Entertainment = Present if UPP Population Digit - 1d6 > 0
Working Girls = Present if  2d6 - UPP Law Level > 0
Fight (non-PC initiated) = Check once per hour for UPP Population Digit - 3d6 > 
0


------------------------------

From: Ronald Urwiller <urwilron@ptw.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 16:16:25 -0700
Subject: T4

"Alright men, spread out, its got to be around here somewhere . . . "

Hello, I've greatly anticipated the arrival of T4 unfortunatly I can't seem
to find it anywhere.  Anyone have any Ideas.  My local Starport is in
Lancaster, Ca.
If you can help I'd appreciate it.  For those of you that do have T4
already, do you mind letting me know what it has in common with FFS.  I've
heard it replicates a version of ship and vehicle construction.  Yet, does
it allow construction of other items like
weapons, or other thinks.  Thanks

Brad Urwiller 
urwilron@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:23:31 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: I have seen the Hardback

My Local Game Store got in three copies of the Hardback T4 today.  They 
look really nice.  Anyone know why the hardbacks are going to game stores 
(I've emailed Imperium Games to ask, but I wasn't sure if they would be 
able to reply what with them moving and all)?

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/



------------------------------

From: Ronald Urwiller <urwilron@ptw.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 16:40:04 -0700
Subject: PBeM-What is it?

Hello,  I've played Traveller (TNE, CT) for a while.  However, I've never
heard or participated in a PBeM.  Anyone mind explaining what it is or how
it works.  Since their are few players in my area this could be a last
resort.  Thanks

Brad Urwiller
urwilron@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:03:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: More stuff for sale...

I have added some new stuff to my for sale list, including another *mint*
copy of AHL! Check my web-page for deatils...

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)


------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:24:06 +1300
Subject: Traveller-digest mailing list

Hey I just discovered that I am the only New Zealander registered to 
this mailing list. Just thought I would share that.

------------------------------

From: tubs@globalnet.co.uk (Craig Vaughton)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 01:17:39 +0100
Subject: Dangerous Journeys

Wednesday 19 September 1996 01:05 BST

Hi,

In Traveller Digest #427

Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> wrote

>Hey.  I was wondering if anyone here had Dangerous Journeys.  I have found a
>copy and thought of picking it up, but I was wanting some input first! :)

I had a copy of Dangerous Journeys, along with a number of the supplements
for quite a while...it never got played !

After wading through the first part of the book, trying character generation
etc, you soon realise how complicated it is. It's also very detailed. 
What made life worse was the choice of typeface, necessarily small to cram
as much into a single volume as possible I suppose.
The magic system, brushed over in the basic book but available later as a
supplement, (with more pages than the basic rules book !) probably had more
spells than all the AD&D tomes put together.
The system had a lot going for it; intriguing background, Ancient Egypt;
well produced, dedicated magazine
- -- Journeys (imagination failure here I think !); quick appearance of a
number of supplements; loads of depth.

But, ultimately, too complicated for what's basically another fantasy RPG.
Good for grabbing ideas from though.

My copy was traded in along with some other stuff before I moved house this
year. Otherwise it would still be gathering dust in the attic !



BTW, anybody thinking of fitting a Cyrix/IBM P+ series CPU to their PC's,
make sure you fit a higher throughput fan and bigger heatsink, with plenty
of heat conductive paste. These things run HOT !!!


Craig


Happiness is Vectored Thrust....Fly Harrier


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:23:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Dangerous Journeys?

Unless you like reading several million pages of miniscule text
regurgitating AD&D in a reprocessed form, DON'T!

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)

On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> Hey.  I was wondering if anyone here had Dangerous Journeys.  I have found a
> copy and thought of picking it up, but I was wanting some input first! :)
> 
> 
> Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger
> 
> AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
>        Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
>        Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
>        Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM
> 


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:08:56 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Bar Encounters...

Moin Charles Collin,

> Random Bar Encounter Table (1d6)
> 1. player gets drunk.
> 2. player gets drunk and passes out.
> 3. player gets drunk, pukes, and passes out.
> 4. player gets drunk, passes out, and player's wallet gets swiped.
> 5. player gets lucky
> 6. player gets drunk and lucky.

	oh what a stupid bar, I think its one in the "Hinter Worlds".

	So here is my Bar in Gushemege 1170, the center of whats
	left from the imperium ;-)

	1. player gets drunk nothing happen
	2. player gets invited in a dart game, as this is played
	   for money, perhaps a dart is hitting the winner
	3. a nice woman talks to the player, offering Mariuana
	   and a nice place to sleep
	4. a nice woman talks to the player, putting some O in
	   his beer, and he wake up naked in the street.
	5. A bunch of PR317 come in searching for drugs.
	6. A boy came in talking to the keeper, he switched the
	   musik, some people leave, next 5
	7. a trader came in, telling that he had birthday 3 days
	   ago, all get drunk and stoned for free.
	8. you see some Cr and a small packet changing owners
	9. the player is talking to some people (6 than 5) and
	   the PR317 found a chip on the players table containing
	   a puppetiers egg.
	10.the player got the hint with the musik and also leave
 	   the bar. They joined the guy to his room, and he offer
 	   a very cheap ...

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 16:34:31 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Water in the desert...

Moin Boyd Schneider,

> Unless Ianic can locate water from an alternate source, or it is provided via 
> another method, it seems like water transport is a gold mine for characters!

	Shure, but Ianic has 

		Ianic         1924 E360697-5    Ni Ri De           924 Im
		                   C360797-8

	has made a tech level change between 1104 and 1202

> What other factors should I take in consideration to balance out this seeming 
> inequity in things.  Ianic has a population in the millions!  How could they 
> supply their TL 5 society with enough drinking water every day for their 
> people, livestock, agriculture?

	The people there are Jonkeerin's, geenereed humans. Jonkeer's
	live at Spinwards 2215, 1924, 3123, 0533, 1736, 1836, Deneb
	0701, 2717, 1524, and 1433. Main Jonkeer rebellions in 1083
	and 1101.

> (not to mention coolant for their vehicles, 
> wet-cell batteries, bathing, cooking, manufacturing, etc.)  It seems to me 
> that every day must be a crisis for these people unless the planetiod belt is 
> full o' icey chunks. 

	You mentioned it. They have a company selling water with some
	mod-cutters for transporting it down. Unlinke the Imperial
	"Mininstery of Colonialisation" who created the Jonkeer's
	and tested them in deserts, the Regency "Ministery of the
	Interior" concentrates on existing humans.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 01:53:07 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Con Scenario

Moin Michael Koehne,

> 	So if anybody has a !SHORT! scenario for inexperinced
> 	travellers (but experienced RPGers) suitable for a
> 	game Com featuring M3, ready on disk, mail it to me ;-)

	Just funny to quote yourself, but after a nigth of thinking
	I got a scenario. A green captain hoping for big bussines
	at Ianic (SM 1924) selling water, unfortuntely its 1083
	and the first Jonkeereer rebellion when the ship arived.
	A ex-prisoner, ex-corsair hired as a chief, and a young
	Medicine school absolvent for steward making the crew.
	A bounty hunter thinks that something is going wrong
	(hey they hired a known corsair) and a *discipline of
	the rigth way* fellower are the first passengers, oh
	not to forget an Ine Givar symatisant who is blind
	passenger and hopes to get to Ianic before the trouble
	starts. And the explosive ferilisers, of cause are
	weapons in reality ;-)

	You see, a short trip through this list makes a scenario.
	I hope to translate them to english next week, to put
	them on my home page.

	Sorry that its not T4. But I neither have T4 rules nor
	one of the starter scenarios some people mentioned here.

	As I have to master a second group on sunday, a T4 scenario
	will still be nice.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:29:01 -0500
Subject: Dawn and Established History

Amnuss@aol.com wrote quite a while back:

>Getting ready for my campain I noticed that the Core Subsector given in the
>back of the T4 rules is not the same subsector shown in The Traveller's
>Digest #8.  Went to the Atlas of the Imperium and the TTD8 Core subsector
>matched it (subsector G).  I matched the subsector in T4 rules to subsector
>K.

Interesting...I was expecting that it wouldn't be matchable.  Of course, the
blunder can be salvaged if Imperium Games claims that it was only an example
of a subsector map, here's the real one, and replace it with the original 
subsector G in the sourcebook...we'll see if they do....  Of course, another
radical option would be to go 3D, but that's probably not going to happen,
for many good reasons.

I haven't had a chance to look through the Big Black Book much yet, but I have
put together some notes about the era around Dawn from old published sources.
No, I didn't say the "C" word.  :)

  * Apparently, sometime between -1776 and -1526, probably closer to -1526 
    than not, a government claiming to be the RoM moved to Sylea (Core 2118).  
    By the end of Twilight in -1526, they no longer are making this claim.
  * The Sylean Federation was founded in -650.
  * According to the MT Referee's Companion, they had tech-12 by -150 or so.
    Tech-13 should be widespread by 300; I did see that the Big Black Book
    says Imperial-issue body pistols are already tech-13 at Dawn, so I think
    we can expect Sylea to achieve that tech level well before 300.  These
    dates are known to be very iffy.
  * Twelve Sylean worlds signed the Shudusham Concords in -110.  At that 
    time, Shudusham/Core (Core 2214) was neutral.
  * _Atlas_ apparently defines twenty-five worlds as Sylean Home Worlds,
    which are directly ruled by the Office of the Emperor in the 1100s; all
    are in Core and Kaskii subsectors (G and H, respectively).
  * Cleon's campaign started in -30, when he was only 27.
  * At Dawn, when he is elected hereditary emperor for life, he is 57.
    I remember a quote from somewhere that he was President of the Grand
    Senate of the Sylean Federation before that, but can't find it.
  * The founding of the Imperium was on January 19, AD 4521, according to
    GDW's _Solomani_.  Later MT materials retconned the year to 4518, but
    it appears that the Big Black Book is back to 4521 again.  
  * Cleon II Zhunastu, his son, is not yet born at Dawn.  I guess that
    Cleon was too busy to have children before until then....
  * Artemsus Lentuli, who will become chancellor of the Imperium, and then
    emperor, is 17 years old at Dawn.
  * The Imperial Sunburst has a standard color -- G2V gold on a black field
    -- and is instituted with the calendar and the Imperium.  The star of Sylea 
    is a G2V.  The standard color is abolished in 247.
  * _Atlas_ apparently defines twenty-five worlds as Sylean Home Worlds,
    which are directly ruled by the Office of the Emperor in the 1100s; all
    are in Core and Kaskii subsectors (G and H, respectively).
  * It isn't entirely clear just how much territory the Syleans controlled
    at Dawn.  One source claims that they had control of the Core sector;
    another implies that they started with a handful of worlds; a third
    notes that the Imperium's reach extended 100 subsectors by Cleon's 
    death.  Any could happen, I suppose, but the Imperium must be large
    enough to end ships into the Spinward Marches by 60, and for the
    Pacification Campaigns to make sense.
  * The following megacorporations appear to exist in some form at Dawn:
      Tukera Lines.  It can be assumed that the Tukera family are directly
                     involved with the founding.
      Zirunkarish.   The same can be said for the Shiishuginsa family.
      Ling-Standard. They will found Mora in 60, so they must be big.  They
                     may be involved with the foundation of the industrial
                     complex at Deneb before that.
      GSbAG.         They exist.  Marc Miller's article on Luna in Dragon #87
                     indicates that GSbAG may date back to the First 
                     Interstellar War.  No proof that they're at the Core in 
                     this time period, but no contrary proof either.
    The other megacorps all have establishment dates known to be later,
    except the three that will join with Vland.  These four give Cleon
    transport, finance, colonial development, and starship construction,
    respectively, if all are at Core and are major.

DGP printed more data in Travellers Digest #9 and #10:

  * Stats for Sylea (TD9)
    7652 km  0.69G  2.2atm  20d32'5" tilt  24h4m1s day  365d year
    (day/year period seems too convenient, could be argued away if Capital
    is manipulated by Ancients)  Admittedly, Sylea should be a very nice
    world for humans, worthy of being the showpiece of Man in later years.
  * World map for Sylea (TD10)
    Places capital city, Cleon, at about 37 degrees south latitude, in
    clear terrain, on the west coast of the major continent, south of a 
    tropical rain forest.  WBH claims average temperature in the capital 
    is 295K (22 deg. C) with a winter nighttime low of 279K (6 deg. C) and 
    a summer daytime high of 306K (32 deg. C).  Cleon is probably built on 
    a savanna.  The later existance of the Summer Palace on Umgadin/Core may 
    be explained by the tropical summer heat.
  * An illo of the Grand Palace of Cleon is in TD #9.  It's a collection
    of pyramidal structures clustered within what appears to be an earthen 
    berm of some sort.  The text suggests that they're built as a defensive 
    fortress against possible drop-troop assault.  (From whom?)  It also
    seems to sit on a grassy plain, with hills in the distance, supporting 
    the savanna theory.
  * Cleon established the Sylean Guard regiment as household troops
    at Dawn.  The Marine Escort Force (company-sized) and IISS Imperial 
    Protection Detail (a number of 12-man bodyguard details) were probably 
    also established at this time.
  * Two interstellar governments are mentioned in the issues.  One, the
    "Interstellar Confederacy", is supposedly defunct by Dawn.  The other,
    the Chanestin Kingdom, is centered on Keshi/Dunea (Core 1938) and 
    controlled 25 worlds within 5 pc of Keshi in -107.  Apparently they 
    were still at war with Sylea at Dawn.  [Both could be scrapped at no 
    great loss, since even the old-timers haven't heard of them; and 
    maybe they should be.]
	 
What else do we know?

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
  

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 18 Sep 96 16:54:50 MS
Subject: I'll Drink Another Have, Bartender...

34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Allen. Shock) said:
>>Random Bar Encounter Table (1d6)
>>1. player gets drunk.
>>2. player gets drunk and passes out.
>>3. player gets drunk, pukes, and passes out.
>>4. player gets drunk, passes out, and player's wallet gets swiped.
>>5. player gets lucky
>>6. player gets drunk and lucky.
>
>Excuse me, shouldn't that be "CHARACTER gets drunk..."?

Maybe not; LARP is becoming popular for some reason, and has all sorts of 
dangers associated with it:

"Dammit, man!  This is roleplaying!  Now shut up and drink another fifth, then 
tell me what your character does then..."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #430
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Traveller-digest        Wednesday, 18 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 431

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: T4 Scouts
         2. Re: two sheckles for that?
         3. Re: Dangerous Journeys
         4. Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word...(LONG)
         5. Re: Re: Traveller Suite
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #421
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #429
         8. Re: Dangerous Journeys
         9. Re: Star Maps
        10. Dangerous Journeys
        11. Oh no a Kiwi!
        12. Re: sustainable technologie (questions)
        13. Re: PC Deaths
        14. Re: Traveller Suite
        15. Re: Water in the desert...
        16. Re: Bar Table

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lan Kelly <CyberWere@ConnectI.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:39:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Scouts

At 15:58 9/18/96 EDT, you wrote:
>Lan writes:
>>Does anyone know the historical background and or reasoning for
>>not giving the IISS retirees a pension?
>  In my campaign it is easy: You Never Leave The Scouts, you just
>go on detached duty. Since, technically, you are still a scout (you can
>be called up and) you have access to free fuel and facilities at any
>Scout base. That can often be worth a lot more than any pension.
>
>>The premiss is that the TAS awards membership based upon heroism or
>>extraordinary service.
>  No, no, you have it the wrong way around. TAS does not award membership
>for _anything_. They are not a public service, just a private club. When you
>get a "TAS Membership" benefit it is because your chosen career has
>bought it from TAS on your behalf.
>
>    Cheers,
>       Jo

Uh you might want to take a look at the description in T4, page 24.  I quote:
" ... The receipt of membership upon mustering out may be construed as a
reward for heroism or extraordinary service to the Society, rather than an
official benefit of the service."

Silly me, I read this "reward" as coming directly from TAS and not from the
service, just the opposite of you description.  :-)


My question still stands.  Why are the Scout,  of all the military space
services, ignored?  The Marines, Navy both have a chance to be "rewarded" as
do Agents, Entertainers, Rogues and even Nobles (of all people).

 
LAN


Lan Kelly       CyberWere@ ConnectI.com      San Antonio, Texas
***********
"Diplomats are just as essential in starting a war as soldiers are in
finishing it."
Will Rogers


------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:37:47 +1300
Subject: Re: two sheckles for that?

> How do you use money in a traveller campaign.  Does cash exist?  Does
> everyone use credit cards? - if so do people walk around with personal
> credit card readers?  Is there an imperial currency (i.e. credits?) or
> does each planet have their own currency?  Are there both?  What about
> exchange rates etc?
> I like this one because I have always felt this need clarifying also and 
have resorted to giving players in my campaign various explanations over 
the years. I am still not totally convinced as to how it would work.The 
whole issue compares very well with that of Imperial time but I won't go 
into that again because last time I did on this list I confused even 
myself. 
The way I like to think of it is; there exists an Imperial time against 
which Imperial activity is coordinated, against which hyperspace jumps 
are coordinated, and against which Imperial history is observed and 
recorded. This time is determined universally by reference to movement 
relative to the most distant point/set of points in the universe, that 
way minimising the effects of relativity because every point in the 
Imperium is within a reasonable bound of accuracy to be equidistant from 
the reference point/pattern. In the same way that every point on the 
earth is more or less the same distance from the sun or some distant 
star. Though on individual worlds different time observance may be in 
effect depending on the length of their own days, seasons etc, on those 
worlds that have been contacted by the Imperium, Imperial Time has a 
presence.
In a similar fashion, Imperial Credits (and I am speaking without the 
luxury of reference to what may have been said in T4) have a presence on 
contacted worlds but to varying degrees. I would expect that in order to 
maintain the value of the Imperial credit unit a tight control would be 
kept on its generation. Local worlds would be required to hold reserves 
of Imperial credits in their banking systems and their currencys would 
be traded at exchange rates with reference to Imperial credits and only 
currencys that have been granted special Imperial charters would be able 
to be redeemed for Imperial credits. The Imperial Credit would be like 
the European Monetary Unit to which all European Community currencies 
will eventually be tied. 

I think this subject is worth discussing more.

------------------------------

From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:12:55 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Dangerous Journeys

On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Craig Vaughton wrote:

> 
> Wednesday 19 September 1996 01:05 BST
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> In Traveller Digest #427
> 
> Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> wrote
> 
> >Hey.  I was wondering if anyone here had Dangerous Journeys.  I have found a
> >copy and thought of picking it up, but I was wanting some input first! :)
> 
> I had a copy of Dangerous Journeys, along with a number of the supplements
> for quite a while...it never got played !
> 
> After wading through the first part of the book, trying character generation
> etc, you soon realise how complicated it is. It's also very detailed. 

	The basic rules (which were reprinted as Mythus Prime) were, IMO, 
one of the best written and simplest fantasy systems around.

> What made life worse was the choice of typeface, necessarily small to cram
> as much into a single volume as possible I suppose.

	this is a fun thing.  I don't think it was the font size that 
made it a pain, I think it was that damn stupid fake parchment background 
they used on all the pages.  One of my players was visually impaired, and 
thought we were pulling a joke on him with blank pages...

	The advanced rules were awlful thought, completely overwritten 
and totally contradictory.  For Example:  THere are seperate combat 
systems for: Unarmed NOn-Leathal attacks, Unarmed Lethal Attacks, Armed Lethal 
Attacks, Rnaged Attacks,Spiritual Attacks, Mental Attacks, and Magical 
Attacks (note: Mental and Spriritual Attacks can only be done Magicaly).  
Each of these systems is almost Identical to the others.  Plus there is a 
need to reference a LOT of charts to do anything (all of which can be 
thrown away without losing any flavor).  My favorite part of the combat 
system (75+ pages) was the less than 1/2 a page on healing, which boiled 
down to one rule: Use magic.

	The writing on the basic rules is clean, crisp and Minimal.  The 
writing on the advanced rules is obsfuse and way to wordy (there is a 
seven page essay (in the fine type) on why Social Class  - the only 
completely random thing in character generation - is the most important 
aspect of the charcter. 

> The magic system, brushed over in the basic book but available later as a
> supplement, (with more pages than the basic rules book !) probably had more
> spells than all the AD&D tomes put together.

	Confusing contradictory rules, incoherent writing   :)

	Plus there was a huge chunk of conversion rules for the Horror 
game that was going to be released later (and never was).  I think they 
could have put the real rules for this (Psychic Powers, BTW) into the 
book in the same number of pages (50+ if memory serves).

> The system had a lot going for it; 

	I really liked the basic rules.  I thought that they could have 
been the new major system, but the advanced rules were unplayable...

	The 3 stats I thought were the best thought out part of it.  I 
just wish there was an intermediate level of complexity in the rules 
before you get to the advanced rules 27 (mostly meaninless after char 
gen) stats.

>intriguing background, Ancient Egypt;

	I thought it was a bit much, attempting to fit all the major time 
periods and cultures of the world (plus atlantis, Lemuria, and Mu) into 
one book was just plain overkill (Did I use the word Incoherent yet?).

> well produced, dedicated magazine
> -- Journeys (imagination failure here I think !); quick appearance of a
> number of supplements; loads of depth.

It was a nice magazine.  Lots of coverage of all the differnet 
multi-genre games.  Shame that there were only 2 (if I recall correctly) 
Mythus articles not written by Gygax under some psuedonym or another.

> But, ultimately, too complicated for what's basically another fantasy RPG.
> Good for grabbing ideas from though.

	I reiterate - the basic rules are a well designed, well thought 
out set of SKILL-based mechanics.  The Task Difficulty system works 
beautiffully (I wish they had used it for the combat system).  Mythus 
Prime is as good as a Fantasy Game you'll find on the market.

> My copy was traded in along with some other stuff before I moved house this
> year. Otherwise it would still be gathering dust in the attic !

	That sounds like my copies.


	Of course, I maintain that the basic system was not designed by 
EGG.   It is too well thought out and totally without character 
stereotyping replacing characterization.  There is a very workable Skill 
system and the rules are minimal (Yes, I am only talking about Basic 
Mythus here).  Totally and completely the opposite of the thought 
processes that Gygax has shown over the years.

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/


------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:33:45 -0400
Subject: Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word...(LONG)

At 10:05 AM -0400 9/18/96, Peter  H. Brenton wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
>CT= Old Testament
>MT= New Testament
>TNE = The Koran
>
>So;
>
>CT Players = Jews
>MT Players = Christians
>TNE Players = Moslem
>
>Does that make all of us T4 Players "Jews for Jesus"?

CT = Orthodox Jews
T4 = Reform Jews


Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

"An ancient eastern proverb says: I complained because I had no shoes;
then I met a man who had no feet. For the 90's: I complained because I
had no PowerMac; then I met a man who used Windows."--Cloyce Sutton



------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:18:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: Traveller Suite

rc> From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 10:33:29
rc> -0500 Subject: Re: Traveller Suite
rc>
rc> I agree wholeheartedly with the "GIMME NOW!!!, I'LL EVEN TAKE THE
rc> RADICAL STEP OF PAYING FOR IT!!!" response to the idea of the
rc> suite, with one reservation:
rc>
rc> You _WILL_ release a macintosh version, right? RIGHT??!??
rc>
rc> Ross Coburn ross@odyssee.net

Hear HEAR!  I know of many Macintosh 'travellers'...  Heck, I might even
buy two copies!

Chuck

___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/




------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:17:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #421

>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
>Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:47:05 -0800
>Subject: Weird places to game...
>
>Weird places to game over the years...
>
>1:  A friends' dads auto parts business...
>
>2:  A tent on a camping trip in high school...  (By Coleman lantern,
>no less)

Let's see...

A)	Playing Wizard/Melee on a backpack frame during a Thunderstorm in a
lean-to on Isle Royale (largest island in Lake Superior) during Labor Day
weekend.  GREAT GAME(s) BTW...  Wish someone would revive it...

B)	Playing Trav on the sidewalk waiting in line for the first showing
of "The Empire Strikes Back" the day it premered (a self-declared Senior
Skip Day for some of the participants).  GREAT GAME BTW...  Glad someone
_DID_ revive it...

C)	An all night session of Civilization in a church that catered to
the Gay community in Champaign-Urbana the weekend of the WinterWar
Convention about 10 years ago...  "Yeah, mom. We got down here ok.  We're
playing Civ, and staying at the Gay Church.  Bye! <click>"

D)	Squad Leader in a van snowbound on a closed Interstate during a
blizzard (lots of drifting out on the plains...).

I think those are the most unusual.

Chuck

___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/




------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:27:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #429

>> First of all, remember who wrote the Imperial Encyclopedia-it was
>> the guys from DGP who largely wrote it. If the Sylean Federation had
>> controlled an entire sector in Year O, there would be no need to
>> explore or map the sector! And exploration and discovery is what
>
>First of all...  Not strictly true...  Most of Imperial Encyclopedia 
>was a collation of Library Data from previous works.  Supplements 8 & 
>11 of CT, various adventures, supplements, et al from the various 
>supplements and adventures.  Not a whole lot of it was DGP's 
>directly...

I apologize for the inaccuracy. However, I will quote from the credits to
the Imperial Encyclopedia, which I have recently gained a copy of:

"Additional Design...........Frank Chadwick,
                             Joe D. Fugate Sr.,  
                             Gary L. Thomas
Editing.....................Gary L. Thomas
                        and Joe D. Fugate Sr."

A friend of mine who owns the Library Data books reports that there are
differences (usually in the form of additions) to much of the data in the
Imperial Encyclopedia.
Also, editors can have quite an impact on a published work.
        It was also pointed out earlier that DGP themselves were
inconsistent about the size of the Sylean Federation.

                                Allen    


------------------------------

From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:33:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Dangerous Journeys

Craig Vaughton wrote:
> 
> Wednesday 19 September 1996 01:05 BST
> 
> Hi,
> 
> In Traveller Digest #427
> 
> Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> wrote
> 
> >Hey.  I was wondering if anyone here had Dangerous Journeys.  I have found a
> >copy and thought of picking it up, but I was wanting some input first! :)
> 
> I had a copy of Dangerous Journeys, along with a number of the supplements
> for quite a while...it never got played !
> 
> After wading through the first part of the book, trying character generation
> etc, you soon realise how complicated it is. It's also very detailed.
> What made life worse was the choice of typeface, necessarily small to cram
> as much into a single volume as possible I suppose.
> The magic system, brushed over in the basic book but available later as a
> supplement, (with more pages than the basic rules book !) probably had more
> spells than all the AD&D tomes put together.
> The system had a lot going for it; intriguing background, Ancient Egypt;
> well produced, dedicated magazine
> -- Journeys (imagination failure here I think !); quick appearance of a
> number of supplements; loads of depth.
> 
> But, ultimately, too complicated for what's basically another fantasy RPG.
> Good for grabbing ideas from though.
> 
> My copy was traded in along with some other stuff before I moved house this
> year. Otherwise it would still be gathering dust in the attic !
> 
>I actually got it (and a few of the other books too!) but my friends will tell 
you I am a crazy game collector.  It was never played and I don't think anyone
will ever attempt to play it.

What was truly offensive about it was the fact that Gygax must have thought we
were all morons or something.  Instead of building with the knowledge of his players
he attempted to reinvent the wheel.

It is pathetically funny to read how he renames 'experience' 'PC' (the last ones he
calls 'heroic personaes'),characteristics etc.  Even if it can be funny for a while, 
it gets boring and then offensive a little while later.  It almost feels like Gygax
wanted to convince TSR that the product he has designed had not been designed while
he had been working for them (according to the intellectual property law, if the 
system had been designed while he was at TSR, there is a reasonnable argument for
TSR to own the rights to the game)

It is like an auto company who would build a car, pretend it is revolutionnary and 
then call it 'HSMV' (Heavy Self Moving Vehicles) and would then proceed to call the 
wheels LRT (little Round Things).  A driver would become HWP (He Who Pilots), etc.
You get my point.

I don't understand why GDW diverted so much energy to another house system while they
were attempting to boost Twiligth and Dark Conspiracy.  It might not have been the
best system in the world, but you don't shoot in all directions at the same time.

My recommendation: if you are a collector, get it.  Do not expect to use it ever and
don't expect to find it easy reading.

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:51:10 -0800
Subject: Re: Star Maps

>Look for it at:
>
><http://spacsun/rice.edu/~twg/lism.html>

Just correcint a typo Glenn has made here (I managed to find the site)...the
proper URL should be:

http://spacsun.rice.edu/~twg/lism.html

Thanks,

Peter

    /-\                                                           /-\
    |$| Peter John Miller ---> Oakville, Ontario, Canada          |$|
    |$|----------------------------------|------------------------|$|
    |$| Sorry, my homepage on Dragonfire.net is down right now but|$|
    |$| watch the .sig to see when it starts up again, and visit! |$|
    |$|----------------------------------|------------------------|$|
    |$| YoungMerlin - best grapics prices|"What a time to be alive|$|
    |$| on the Web!!!!!!!!               | - Dave Goldin, NASA    |$|
    (_)                                                           (_) 


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:00:15 -0500
Subject: Dangerous Journeys

Well, I guess I'll just let that last copy sit on that shelf and collect
dust! :)

Thanks for all the responces.


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:00:12 -0500
Subject: Oh no a Kiwi!

>From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
>Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:24:06 +1300
>Subject: Traveller-digest mailing list
>
>Hey I just discovered that I am the only New Zealander registered to 
>this mailing list. Just thought I would share that.

Oh no, just what the TML needs, a Kiwi!!!!  :)

Well, I guess if you promise not to talk about Crickett or some other fool
thing like that, I guess we will let you stay. :)

Seriously though, good to have you here.


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 04:55:34 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie (questions)

Moin Leonard Erickson,

> Sure. As soon as you get "general purpose" robots, you don't need
> *people* to build and maintain things, just the robots.

	hm general purpose doesnt mean Int 1, single skill, low data
	robots that we see at tl 8. I would place tl 12 as a margin.
	A low autonomous robots having 5 skills could shurely replace
	a worker (and dosnt ask for money as long as he's not self
	aware ;-)

> But as you add in technology, you are decreasing the percentage of the
> population devoted to raising food, and ditto for most other tasks. You
> do increase the number of tasks, and often the resources. 

	Thats my idea any tech level increase also increases the
	number of task to sustain this technology by 10. A call
	this diversity increase.

	So at TL 12 you need a population code of 11
	      TL 13                               10
	      TL 14                                9
	      TL 15                                8

	I'm not talking about overall production capability but
	that increasing tech level increase the diversity of
	technic logarithmical. So this decline of minimum pop
	per tech level would mean that you have 10 robots per
	human at tl 12, 1000 at tl 13, 100000 at tl 14 and
	10000000 at tl 15.

	I think only a puppetier would like the last ;-)

	But there only two way's to replace a human, a Tl12-15
	AI-Virus, or a Tl17-19 synaptic AI.

> This sort of thing tends to be *cyclic*. Any given technology (and
> agriculture *is* a technology) starts out as something that only a few
> people do. Then as it improves, it takes more people to keep the
> improved (but crude) technology working. Finally, when it matures, you
> are back to needing very few people.

	No. In history every technology offers the posibility to
	to offer work to more people and to feed them. Often new
	techologies where invented when there are no other posibility
	to survive than a new (agricultur) technology. One of
	the most comprehensive book I recently read about this
	subject was "von kanibalen und koenigen, grenzen des
	wachstums antiker hochkulturen" unfortuntely I dont know
	the english title.

	The cycle normaly is :

	- living is easy many childs
	- standart of living (food) drops down to bare survival
	- when new technology is invented continue a level higher

	This book explains very nice why north americans natives
	managed to survie at tl0, south americans figth their
	flower wars and eating each other, indians have holy
	cows they never slauter, china had many dinasties as
	any intruder will become a chinese soon.

	The last capitel about the industrial revolution ended
	with the sentence that "it we try to feed anybody on
	the the world with beef like that produced the US,
	the oil will be empty in 10 years"

> >         - what would be the rate of exchange between US$
> >           and the imperial credit.
> 
> When? That is *which* "US$" and *which* Imperial credit? The 1850 US$
> is not worth the same as the 1950 US$, and neither is worth the same as
> the 1990 US$.

	Lets asume US$ at tl7-1995 and Imperial credit at tl15-1100.

> A ton of food could be a ton of wheat or rice (cheap) or a ton of
> saffron (hideously expensive at around $5 per *gram*).

	Such a thing is more a novellity than food.

> Same sort of argument goes for other things. And we also need to worry
> about the difference between "bulk" (displacement ton) and mass (metric
> ton). The ship has limited *volume* for cargo *and* limits on the mass
> it can carry.

	of course I'm talking about disp.ton. thats normal when talking
	about freight. You count the countainers.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:19:15 -0600
Subject: Re: PC Deaths

At 10:41 pm 9/15/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?  

        Yep.

>Have you ever done it yourself?  

        Yep.

>As a GM would you let it happen, and how would you handle the
>aftermath?  Divine retribution? <g>

        "Handle it?" "Retribution?" -- it was a perfect example of
ROLEPLAYING! The players involved had created consistent personalities for
their characters which were DIFFERENT from their own. Staying consistent
with the characters and the events that had gone before almost REQUIRED that
the PCs get into a fight. I had one experience early on with some munchkin
player who almost wept because a couple of the player characters got into a
fight; that's exactly the kind of person I refuse to play with.

        We "handled" it by having a good laugh over beer'n'chips in front of
the idiot box later on that night, and one player generating a new
character. No worry about the new character wanting retribution, no hard
feelings, and it wasn't a case of the PLAYER trying to get back at the other
player for something. I really miss that gaming group. Half the fun was the
interactions WITHIN the player characters.

        Then there was the time playing "Chamax Plague" when a newbie player
successfully accidentally shot me in the back with a laser carbine ...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:19:28 -0600
Subject: Re: Traveller Suite

At 09:55 am 9/16/96 EDT, you wrote:
>    Due to access problems I cannot maintain these pages from my
>current account. I would be highly appreciative of any volunteers
>from out there who can set this up for me!

        I'm highly time-limited right now, but if you create the pages, I'd
be more than happy to upload them to a fine home (mine).
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:43:43 -0600
Subject: Re: Water in the desert...

At 10:28 am 9/18/96 UT, you wrote:
>I've been working on some trade routes in the Lunion subsector and noticed 
>that seven systems have a zero hydrographics percentage.  I figured with that 
>high demand, drinking water transport must be a fairly big business, 
>especially in the Lunion subsector.  My question is, what sort of factors 
>would come into play when shipping drinking water to a dry world?
>
>Here is what I've got so far:
>
>1 gallon of water = 3.8 liters
>1 gallon of water = 9 pounds = 4.05 kilograms

        Ummm ... around here a gallon of water weighs 8 pounds ("a pint's a
pound the world around"). Unless we're talking different gallons. A gallon
of water then equals 3.6 liters (1 kilogram of water weighs 2.2 pounds and
displaces one liter).
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:43:45 -0600
Subject: Re: Bar Table

At 02:05 pm 9/18/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>Random Bar Encounter Table (1d6)
>>1. player gets drunk.
>>2. player gets drunk and passes out.
>>3. player gets drunk, pukes, and passes out.
>>4. player gets drunk, passes out, and player's wallet gets swiped.
>>5. player gets lucky
>>6. player gets drunk and lucky.
>
>Excuse me, shouldn't that be "CHARACTER gets drunk..."?

        No ...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #431
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Traveller-digest        Thursday, 19 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 432

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Re: Traveller Suite
         2. Re: Dawn and Established History
         3. Re: Traveller Suite
         4. Hiver tech fight song notes
         5. Re: Bar Names
         6. Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word...(LONG)
         7. Traveller Drinking Game (was: Re: Bar Table)
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #425
         9. Re: Stu's Rant
        10. Re: Oh no a Kiwi!
        11. Re: bars
        12. Re: Just give me the pink slip!
        13. Re: Frontierthink
        14. Mega-Corporations
        15. A gallon of water
        16. RE: Water in the desert...
        17. Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word...(LONG)
        18. Re: House Rules
        19. Building plans aplenty
        20. Re: Mega-Corporations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 23:44:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: Traveller Suite

At 9:18 PM -0400 9/18/96, Chuck Maddox wrote:
>rc> From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 10:33:29
>rc> -0500 Subject: Re: Traveller Suite
>rc>
>rc> I agree wholeheartedly with the "GIMME NOW!!!, I'LL EVEN TAKE THE
>rc> RADICAL STEP OF PAYING FOR IT!!!" response to the idea of the
>rc> suite, with one reservation:
>rc>
>rc> You _WILL_ release a macintosh version, right? RIGHT??!??
>rc>
>rc> Ross Coburn ross@odyssee.net
>
>Hear HEAR!  I know of many Macintosh 'travellers'...  Heck, I might even
>buy two copies!

I'm a Mac user and would love a reference CD

In the interest of ease of porting, I suggest HTML format - browsers exist
for all platforms, and the CD could be burned in 9660 format (readable on
Mac/Unix/Windows) for minimal hassle.

Various shareware & freeware utilities for the various platforms could be
included on the CD as well, space permitting.


Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

A friend is someone you can call to help you move.  A best friend is
someone you can call to help you move a body.



------------------------------

From: Sam Draper <S.Draper@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:56:37 +0000
Subject: Re: Dawn and Established History

At 12:29 AM 9/19/96 +0000, Steve Bonneville wrote:

>      GSbAG.         They exist.  Marc Miller's article on Luna in Dragon #87
>                     indicates that GSbAG may date back to the First 
>                     Interstellar War.  No proof that they're at the Core in 
>                     this time period, but no contrary proof either.

GSbAG had a contract with the Sylean Federation Navy in -334, so it was present.

>    The other megacorps all have establishment dates known to be later,
>    except the three that will join with Vland.

When was Sternmetal Horizons formed?


------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:07:29 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller Suite

At 21:19 18/09/96 -0600, you wrote:
>At 09:55 am 9/16/96 EDT, you wrote:
>>    Due to access problems I cannot maintain these pages from my
>>current account. I would be highly appreciative of any volunteers
>>from out there who can set this up for me!
>
>        I'm highly time-limited right now, but if you create the pages, I'd
>be more than happy to upload them to a fine home (mine).

If you need someone to actually create the pages, I'd be more than happy to
do that.  Just provide some info, and graphics (if you have any) and I'll
get to work.

Peter

    /-\                                                           /-\
    |$| Peter John Miller ---> Oakville, Ontario, Canada          |$|
    |$|----------------------------------|------------------------|$|
    |$| Sorry, my homepage on Dragonfire.net is down right now but|$|
    |$| watch the .sig to see when it starts up again, and visit! |$|
    |$|----------------------------------|------------------------|$|
    |$| YoungMerlin - best grapics prices|"What a time to be alive|$|
    |$| on the Web!!!!!!!!               | - Dave Goldin, NASA    |$|
    (_)                                                           (_) 


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:14:37 -0400
Subject: Hiver tech fight song notes

> 
>> THE HIVER TECHNICAL ACADEMY FIGHT SONG  By David Nelson and Allen Shock
>
(annoying poetry mercifully omitted)
>Thank you, Allen!!!
>
>Now, just do _Hivers_ sing the song?  :)

No, they do the "Macarena" to it. Hivers can't sing. :)

I envision this as having been made up by some drunk RCES folks on leave...
                                
                                                Allen


------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 04:22:18 GMT
Subject: Re: Bar Names

 
>>  By the way, anyone ever do a list of Bar names on different worlds??? 
 
When my players came into port, they'd joke along with 
the cliche (and Douglas Adams) and say "OK, we go 
to a seedy space-ranger bar." 
 
At some point, I turned this into "The Seedy Space- 
Ranger Bar, LIC", a franchise operation that goes for that 
"rowdy spaceport bar" ambiance, hires some out-of-work 
actors to look mean and say "ARRR!!", and such. 
 
Of course, on some worlds it's all an act, but on others... 
 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 04:22:29 GMT
Subject: Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word...(LONG)

On Sep 17, 1996 17:58:40, '"Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>' wrote:

 
 
>TNE based its Collapse/TNE era data for both the RC and Regency stuff  
>on the DGP stuff as well so...DGP's supporting a whole lot of the  
>foundation...  I'm not so sure you can chuck DGP...any easier than you can
 
>chuck GDW's stuff...especially since this leaves you with: Spinward  
>Marches, Solomani Rim, Diaspora, Gvurrdon Sector, Massilia, and a  
>tiny bit of Old Expanses... 
 
(I agree with large parts of Stu's rant, but just to nit: 
 
Old Expanses was old FASA material, not DGP. 
 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 04:22:23 GMT
Subject: Traveller Drinking Game (was: Re: Bar Table)

 
[someone said:] 
>>Random Bar Encounter Table (1d6) 
>>1. player gets drunk. 
>>2. player gets drunk and passes out. 
>>3. player gets drunk, pukes, and passes out. 
>>4. player gets drunk, passes out, and player's wallet gets swiped. 
>>5. player gets lucky 
>>6. player gets drunk and lucky. 
> 
 
So on Sep 18, 1996 14:05:14, '34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)'
wrote: 
 
>Excuse me, shouldn't that be "CHARACTER gets drunk..."? 
 
Not if they're playing the TRAVELLER DRINKING GAME! 
 
Character uses an air/raft: one drink 
Aslan challenges character to a duel: one drink 
Character tries to circumvent law-level weaopns' limits: one drink 
Character obeys weapons laws: three drinks 
Character meets a robot: two drinks 
Character meets an alien: one drink 
Character meets an alien who isn't 
  from one of the Major Races: two drinks 
Character goes into a starport bar: one drink 
Character dies during generation: three drinks 
 
etc. etc. etc. 
 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:25:02 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #425

Susan M. Shock wrote:
> 
> >
> >Doug's "Sloop John B." chorus inspired me.  Presenting...
> >
> >      "Solomani Girls"
>         This one hurt.
> 
>   Is anyone compiling this stuff? We could do a net.book of TRAVELLER
>filk songs.
>   I'll bet SPACE MASTER doesn't have cool songs like this...
>                                         Allen

The one that we made goes to the UBC engineer's song.

OOOOOOOHHHHHHH!!!!!
I'M A RAMBLIN' WRECK
FROM HIVER TEC,
AND A HELL OF AN ENGINEER!

There was a whole song there once but I can't remember any more of it.

My GM's in Japan till January so there's little point in asking him.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:33:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Stu's Rant

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> 
> On 18 Sep 96 at 1:00, Hal Carmer spewed:
> 
>>  By the way, anyone ever do a list of Bar names on different
>>  worlds???

In the orbital shipyards of StoneHaven I had a Night Club known as 
"Hanger 15."  This was in TNE and there was an overhead travel lift that 
was infected with Virus.  Someone had hooked up strobes and flashing 
lights the the lift and the whole thing moved back and forth flashing 
lights and such.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 01:02:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Oh no a Kiwi!

Hello Travellers,
  After seeing the phrase above, I had to slap myself to avoid reading
into the meaning "kiwi" what I originally knew it to be.  I assume "kiwi"
is a national word, much like Yank, Kraut, Limey, Frog, etc... mean.  

  What I know "kiwi" to mean is that of the phrase "kiwi enema".  A phrase
that meant getting a boot polished with a brand of boot polish strangely
enough called "kiwi", shoved up one's rear...

Hal


------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:53:31 +1300
Subject: Re: bars

> > >
> > > By the way, anyone ever do a list of Bar names on different worlds???
> > >
> >
> > No, but do you realize that bar hopping is probably the one common thread that
> > liks ALL role-playing games together?  I've played with guys who wouldn't be
> > caught dead in a real bar, but their characters go into bars every time they
> > leave their ship.  Of course, depending on the genre, they will go into a
> > drinking establishment whenever they get into town.
> >

Funny, my characters wouldn't be seen in a bar simply because they have 
always meant trouble. Many of our games are played in a bar however. I 
am not sure if that qualifies as a weird place to play, I rather doubt 
it is.
Re; encounters. I can't think of the last time an adventure thread was 
picked up in a bar, especially in the games I referee. I prefer to have 
my players contacted at techno raves in abandoned underground chambers 
(bit of a Cyberpunk hangover I'm afraid). Bar situations seem to proceed 
like this:
"..get that down ya"
"cheers....ah, that one didn't touch the sides.."
"hey,check out that chick in the corner...looks a bit suspicious.."
"lets start a brawl..."
"oh ...not again.."
"...what do think you are looking at mate..."
"..see this jimmie.."


------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:55:31 +1300
Subject: Re: Just give me the pink slip!

> 
> The Scout is "free" because the ship remains the property of the
> Imperium, and the ship as well as the character can be called back into
> service when needed.  This is "canon."
> 

Of course, the Imperium has to be able to find 'em first.

> The Free Trader isn't free, because the character actually owns the ship
> (well, he owns the mortgage anyway[G]). 

Once again, just watch them try and collect the payments. Call it 
organic adventure material. In the words of Lenny Bruce: "Screw 'em. 
They can afford it!"



------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:39:46 +1300
Subject: Re: Frontierthink

> 
> Hello Fellow Travellers,
>   I was discussing some stuff with a few of my players - regarding the
> setting up of a colony, and setting the law levels and social levels and
> all of that fun stuff <grin>.  What I am currently using is World Tamers
> Handbook in the hopes that it can provide a lot of information on how to
> set up colonies, and how to run them.  As it turns out, it opens a whole
> pandora's box of questions as wells as answering a few questions (yeah,
> you have been there right?!!!).
>   WTH gives the basics about how to start a colony, as well as assigning a
> rough tonnage required to ship any of the "capital investments".  It also
> inplies that a certain amount of what the colony produces must be shipped
> out - if only to get the credit required for importing luxeries and other
> well needed equipment...

There are a lot of things implied by rules simply because it can't cover 
everything. The referee really has to decide; What type of world am I 
dealing with given the raw profile I have roled. While the earning of 
Imperial Credits may be important, it is really up to the referee to 
make decisions about the state of the credit rating (in terms of trade 
finance, development finance, and other devices that enable spending 
beyond the colony's immediate productive capacity) of the colony, the 
colonies neighbours, and most importantly the colony's owners. The rules 
have a very Mercantilist slight to them. I have often said that 
Traveller is very comparable to the days of the great trading and 
adventuring companies in earth's history (because of the Frontierthink 
attitudes and the communication time delay) but that shouldn't be 
extended to "gold-hoarding" mentality that prevailed then. 
> 
>   So here is the mainthrust question I have for you people on this list...
> 
> In Striker, they give a formula for calculating the Gross Planetary
> Output.  They then state that a set percentage is required to be set aside
> for military spending and such.  Likewise, in Trillion Credit Squadron,
> they state that a set amount of money is available per
> planet/subsector/sector based upon the population ratings, the civilian
> government rating, and whether the planet/subsector/sector is at war or
> peace.
>   Now what I am getting at is a logical extension of all that information,
> and am trying to determine what kind of tonnage is required to keep the
> trade routes flowing.  While the random charts for passengers and cargo
> and freight is fine with regards to the general day to day affairs of
> tramp freighters, it isn't ok when attempting to do a simulation of the
> Empire's trade.
>   You might wonder to yourself "why bother with all that work" and you
> would probably be right.  But attention to details such as what I am
> proposing might make the Imperium seem a little more alive and rational.
> For instance: suppose you have an agricultural world at tech 9.  It is a
> veritable garden world and is literally capable of being the breadbasket
> of the sector.  As part of that subsector, are two vacuum worlds, a
> overpopulated world, as well as some marginal worlds.  Suddenly, food has
> a lot more value than what the "trade formulas" would indicate.  In fact,
> it leads into something which the Classic Traveller never really went into
> with regards to character background generation (ie High Guard).  What
> reasons are there for characters to have backgrounds in raids, police
> actions, and so forth?  What planets are the targets of such raids?  Where
> were the wars that took place for players to earn their purple hearts,
> MCUF, and the whole plethora of other medals awarded during wartime
> actions?  If we examine the scenario I mentioned above, with all those
> worlds short on food, and the one world with food, how long will it be
> before the game of politics rears it's ugly head and plays games with the
> policies of the other worlds?
>   Another thing to occurs to me to wonder about... What is the overall
> government rating of the imperium?  What are the limitations that the
> Imperium places upon worlds, and citizens of the Imperium?  In short, I
> would like to see more of the big picture before starting to work on the
> small picture...
> 

Unfortunately the big picture doesn't do the small picture any justice 
at all because you end up thinking all the worlds comply with the same 
simple rules - which is basically the problem with working to closely to 
the World Tamers Guide. It is only a guide after all.
Feel free to alter the trade formulas if you think they don't make 
sense.

>   Besides, in order to have unbridled ambition for your NPC's and PC's,
> there has to be something for them to aspire towards - something bigger
> than what they have now...

Now you have hit on one of the big failings of Traveller as a 
role-playing game - what, no experience points? 

Ambition? - welcome to the Imperium - if you don't have an Imperial 
charter you are little people - keep moving - follow the frontier - 
think Frontier always - live fast, die wide!



------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 01:15:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Mega-Corporations

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone here who can "cite" the different
metacorporations (mega corporations in multiple subsectors) that exist,
and when they came about?  My campaign is set with Sternmetal being the
employer of Burke Riseling.  I figure, that they would not notice a "slush
fund" to the tune of 750 Mcr.  Essentially what I have happening is that
if Sternmetal ever finds out about Riseling's colony, they will let it run
for a while, and then terminate both him and his experiment if there is a
major publicity problem.
  By the way, the players are looking at setting up a situation similar to
what happened to Bosten during the sunset years of the age of piracy.  The
players are looking to create a starport to handle the needs of battle
scars without asking who produced the scars, or why.  That attitude will
also apply to cargoes.  They hope to set up a low law level, but with a
high law enforcement only with regards to shipping contraband cargoes.
WIth the confiscation they intend to enforce, along with the ability to
sell all arms on the planet - they figure to have it made rather soon.  In
fact, some of the players are thinking about claiming some land on the
colony, and bringing in their own factories from off planet (read that as
imports), and then reap the profits from that...

  Is there anything that I might have missed with regards to how the
Imperium would react to a colony being set up outside legal imperial
borders?  I already intend to plant some "secret agents" from different
organizations.  Heck, one of the players is a member of the Imperial
Security, sort of an FBI organization for the Imperium...

Hal


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 04:47:35 UT
Subject: A gallon of water

David J. Golden said:

>        Ummm ... around here a gallon of water weighs 8 pounds ("a pint's a
>pound the world around"). Unless we're talking different gallons. A gallon
>of water then equals 3.6 liters (1 kilogram of water weighs 2.2 pounds and
>displaces one liter).

Well, that's what I remembered, but I thought I would try it...  Dang that 
pesky scale!!!     		;-)
Thanks for the correction.  Besides my faulty standards, do you have any input 
to my question?  It would be appreciated.

						---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 04:43:43 UT
Subject: RE: Water in the desert...

Michael Koehne kindly offered:

>
>	Shure, but Ianic has 
>
>		Ianic         1924 E360697-5    Ni Ri De           924 Im
>		                   C360797-8
>
>	has made a tech level change between 1104 and 1202

I don't doubt it, there is just too much going on in that part of the 
subsector for them to stay down.  But my timeline isn't there yet, in fact, 
I'm more interested in historical Ianic (since the last Survey) than the next 
one hundred years.

>
>
>	The people there are Jonkeerin's, geenereed humans. Jonkeer's
>	live at Spinwards 2215, 1924, 3123, 0533, 1736, 1836, Deneb
>	0701, 2717, 1524, and 1433. Main Jonkeer rebellions in 1083
>	and 1101.

Duh, what's a Jonkereen?

>	You mentioned it. They have a company selling water with some
>	mod-cutters for transporting it down. Unlinke the Imperial
>	"Mininstery of Colonialisation" who created the Jonkeer's
>	and tested them in deserts, the Regency "Ministery of the
>	Interior" concentrates on existing humans.
>

Duh, what's "the Regency?"   ;-)

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 23:27:02 -0800
Subject: Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word...(LONG)

On 19 Sep 96 at 4:22, John H Bogan Jr spewed:

> On Sep 17, 1996 17:58:40, '"Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>'
> wrote:

> (I agree with large parts of Stu's rant, but just to nit: 
> 
> Old Expanses was old FASA material, not DGP. 

Don't have a lot of the old FASA stuff, so I was not aware of this... 

True...  I guess I based my assumption, that it, like all the other 
Imperial sectors, was also posted by DGP on GEnie, and copied to the 
net...

And I was actually speaking of the portions of Old Expanses 
republished as the RC by GDW

Thanks for the clarification, though.  :-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 02:31:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: House Rules

 Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>, he say....

> If the bullet leaving the gun does not "knock" down the
>person firing the gun, then it should not be automatically knocking down
>the target - assuming that the target and the firing person are of
>approximately similar masses.  Therefor, remove the automatic rule of the
>4d6, and change it to a difficulty task versus Dex based upon the
>impacting damage - that I might go along with.  

Good point, and thanks for the comments. I'll be the first to admit that my
knowledge of real-world ballistic physics wouldn't fill a fullerene...

Thanks,

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."



------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 02:31:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Building plans aplenty

Rob Prior goes, like:

>What I can't get enough of is various building and city layout plans.  I
>thought about trying to make some on templates that could be laid out in 
>any orientation and the door would match up, etc.  But I haven't had the 
>time for this.  Other than Windows Paint, I dont have any nifty drawing 
>programs.

I've been thinking of doing just this, using Illustrator and Photoshop.
(Windows Paint? What the heck is that?) But I've got a thousand other ideas
for my campaign, so it's going to have to wait.

It's absolutely essential to have lots of floor plans and maps available
when you're GMing - I hate having to improvise a Tech-12 Gravliner Port
while the game is in progress. This time out, I'm going to utterly
prepared; no matter what the situation is, I want to have a map ready for
the job. Fortunately, I dearly love to design weird architectural plans.
It's time consuming, though...

In the meantime, do what I do: haunt the Architecture section of your local
library - preferably at a University with an Architecture department. Lots
of plans there; sadly they tend to be reproduced at itsy bitsy scales, but
an enlarging photocopier will deal with that.

For futuristic floor plans, look for the really out-there, visionary,
futurismo designers. I recently copied a *primo* pre-molded
capsule-apartment plan from _Archigram_, a book about the technofreak
plug-in-city designers of the '60s. 

Paolo Soleri is useless for floor plans, but perfect if you want incredibly
farfetched megastructure cities of an almost Fossian scale - check out his
book _Arcology_ (probably in the Oversized Books section, which happens to
be a good place to look for floor plans; any publisher who is serious about
showing off an architect's work is going to go for an oversized format).

In a book on Japanese architecture (forget the name), I found floor plans
for a small floating city, with six decks and a expo/conference facility.
And this thing was actually built! ("Aquapolis" by Kiyonori Kikutake.)
Perfect because it could easily be a space station, or an sub-oceanic
research facility, or whatever. Japanese architecture books are great: as a
society, the Japanese are far more technophilic than us Westerners; they
actually *built* those Archigram tower/geodesics and modular plastic
apartment racks.

Other names to look out for: Dodiaxis, Moishe Safdie (more nifty modular
housing schemes), Antonio Gaudi, and magazines such as _Domus_.

Have fun,

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."



------------------------------

From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 23:56:09 -0700
Subject: Re: Mega-Corporations

Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net> writes:

> Just out of curiosity, is there anyone here who can "cite" the different
> metacorporations (mega corporations in multiple subsectors) that exist,
> and when they came about? 


Of the MegaCorps that existed in 1100, these were founded

before year 0:

  GSbAG                   -334 (earliest concrete evidence - company 
                          claims -2438)
  Makhidkaran             pre-dates Third Imperium
  Naasirka                pre-dates Sylean Federation
  Sharurshid              First Imperium
  Tukera Lines            Sylean Federation (oldest record - company 
                          claims several centuries earlier)
  Zirunkariish            -425


after year 0:

  Delgado Trading         997
  General Products        620-622
  Hortalez et Cie         221
  Instellarms             626
  SuSAG                   252


no reference:

  Ling Standard Products  ?
  Sternmetal Horizons     ?


(sources: Library Data A-M, Merchant Prince)


   The four Vilani companies (Makhidkaran, Naasirka, Sharurshid, 
Zirunkariish) are based out of Vland Sector rather than Core, and it  
may not be obvious that GSbAG and Tukera Lines are destined to be 
MegaCorps.  I couldn't find any reference to Sternmetal's founding 
date.



- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@mindlink.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #432
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Traveller-digest        Thursday, 19 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 433

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. none
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #425
         3. (no subject)
         4. other places...
         5. Frontier Wars Convention
         6. Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
         7. Highly off topic.  Credit Card Databases for sale.
         8. Re: Moving stars
         9. Re: sustainable technologie
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #429
        11. Re: none
        12. Re: other places...
        13. Size of Sylean Fed/3rd Imp at Year 0
        14. Re: RC Cults

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 05:11:00 GMT 
Subject: none

Rich Ostorero

(responding to Tom Opgenorth)

> Nice bit of planning, and far more elegant than the standard
> Vietnam-era American approach to the problem: rolling a frag
> grenade into the officer's bedroom. They called it "fragging."

ALso great fun was to fill a beer can with sand, and toss _that_ into
the offending officer's hootch (sleeping quarters). It is amazing how
many ways there are to get out of a building...: )


Stuart L. Dollar
Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word

> There were inconsistencies galore when only CT was around.  Judges
> Guild produced 4 sectors, that were IMHO, good (if not great)
> products.  Judges Guild goes belly up, and sometime later, GDW
> decides to invalidate the old sectors, but even uses 3 of the same
> sector names...  They replace them with maps in Atlas of the
> Imperium...
>
> What led to this decision?  Maybe Loren or Marc can enlighten me

To be completely honest, I don't remember. It was just too friggin'
long ago. Maybe Marc remembers...

< material deleted >

> Then comes DGP.  They generate all those nifty sectors that now sit
> in GEnie's archives, as well as numerous ftp sites.  But in many
> cases, they had errors

I like Dave Nilsen's description of "the sound of a computer with
its needle stuck in the same groove


         Loren Wiseman




------------------------------

From: rogersm@tau.uab.es (Roger Sen Montero)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 00:04:55
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #425

In <9609180857.AA13927@NS.MPGN.COM>, on 09/18/96 
   at 04:57 AM, Boyd Schneider said:

>> By the way, anyone ever do a list of Bar names on different worlds???
>I thought I would make a random bar encounter table since PCs spend so
>much  time there, we might as well streamline that part of the adventure.

>hmmm...
>Random Bar Encounter Table (1d6)
>1. player gets drunk.
>2. player gets drunk and passes out.
>3. player gets drunk, pukes, and passes out.
>4. player gets drunk, passes out, and player's wallet gets swiped. 5.
>player gets lucky
>6. player gets drunk and lucky.


 In the Digest (The Travellers' Digest) #14 there's a funny article 'Scout
Brew' by Chester Cox and Nancy Parker.

 Some interesting tables. <g>

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
rogersm@tau.uab.es (Roger Sen Montero)
- -----------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Timothy Collinson <tc@library.solent.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 11:24:59 -0700
Subject: (no subject)

>BTW, just to make things different, I'm often want to run a couple of
>sessions where the players important NPC meetings occur places other
>than a bar...

>Stu

How about the local library...?  ;-)

An interesting write up in a newspaper suggested that the Royal 
Geographical Society library (where I worked previously) was a good place 
for women to meet young men.  The kind of dashing young adventurers that 
we had who'd come to read up on where they were off to.

(Of course we had our fair share of the fuddy-duddy types too!)


tc
- -- 
"Entropy applies to more than just the universe, you know."
     - Cataloguer before she got her brain into gear




------------------------------

From: Timothy Collinson <tc@library.solent.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 11:31:15 -0700
Subject: other places...

>BTW, just to make things different, I'm often want to run a couple of
>sessions where the players important NPC meetings occur places other
>than a bar...

>Stu

Try the local library....  ;-)   - assuming its not a high-tech world


Strangely enough a newspaper reported that the Royal Geographical Society 
Library (where I worked previously) was a good place for ladies to 'run 
into' dashing young men of the adventuresome bent.  I was never quite 
sure if this was a 'good thing' or a 'bad thing'!

Of course, we had our fair share of 'fuddy-duddy' types too!

Timothy
- -- 
"Entroply applies to more than just the universe, you know."
     - Cataloguer, yesterday, before her brain switched in.




------------------------------

From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:37:27 +0000
Subject: Frontier Wars Convention

October 25th and 26th
at the Miller Park Pavilion 
Bloomington Illinois, 61701

Events Include:
Traveller
Shadowrun
Earthdawn
BattleTech
Robo Rally
High Guard Fleet Action
a lot of assorted minatures games

a large scale Rub Out game with the judges dressed as gangsters
[this is a large scale board game, not live action]

We are always looking for more games 
there will be 5 dealers also.

for more information contact me.
The Cat of Knights and Shadows
Keeper of the Alt.Callahans WWW archives
Wargamer, Weird Herald, ADHD Advocate
http://www.ice.net/~kwalsh/callahan.html

------------------------------

From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 09:04:21 -0500
Subject: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

OK folks, it looks like we're in danger of missing out on this Traveller 
suite.  Therefore, all Mac users on this list _please_ make yourselves 
known, along with the number of non-list Mac users you know.  If we can 
get enough out there, we may be able to convince Jo to get it coded for 
us!

Alternately, is there a Mac coding god out there who would be willing to 
convert it?  I'm a CodeWarrior newbie myself.

By the way, I can speak for six myself, and know that both Glenn Grant 
and Charles Collin and Darroch Elliott (and who knows who else, I'm just 
pointing fingers here) should also have something to say on the matter.

Ross Coburn
for Prometheus Design
ross@odyssee.net

------------------------------

From: Erik Yocum <ecy@umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:23:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Highly off topic.  Credit Card Databases for sale.

Sorry about this, but I thought people would want to know.

I already called them, and they're taking only faxed or written requests
to have information removed.

_____________________________________________________________________
Erik Yocum						ecy@umich.edu

Medical Center Information Technology		       Tel:  936-4906
Taubman Center B1165, Box 0308			       Fax:  763-6231

Remember:  With paradigms, Shift Happens


     
     
==========================================================================
     
Your name, social security number, current address, previous addresses, 
mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal information
are now available to anyone with a credit card through a new Lexis 
database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this information 
could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow someone else 
to use your identity.
     
You can have your name and information removed from this list by making 
a telephone request. Call (800) 543-6862, select option 4 and then 
option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering 
that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may 
also send a fax to (513) 865-7360, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / 
P.O. Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to 
confirm your name has been removed is always a good idea.
     
As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, 
Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special 
set of operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh 
(rhymes with "Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and 
is the person to whom complaints about the service could be directed. 
He can be reached at the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. 
According to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 
1364.
     
I called this morning and had my name removed. The representative 
will need your name and social security number to remove you from 
the list. I suggest that we inundate these people with requests to 
remove our info from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone we 
know.
     
==========================================================================
     
     
- -
     
     



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:54:26 -0800
Subject: Re: Moving stars

On 18 Sep 96 at 4:53, Glenn Grant spewed:

> Stars, however, are not known to be carried off by African or
> European swallows. Gripped by the husk or otherwise.

Maybe two at a time in tandem???  :-)

Great post, BTW...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:54:26 -0800
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie

On 17 Sep 96 at 23:15, Leonard Erickson spewed:

> In mail you write:
> 
> >> Two comments:
> >> 1. Draft them (admittedly a last resort)
> >
> > Uh, last I knew, this was a democracy, and you can't draft people
> > into civilian jobs.  Now admittedly, you can raise wages for such
> > jobs to the point where it would be more attractive, and this is
> > what would happen long term, but you don't draft people to work
> > for Anaconda...
> 
> In case you hadn't noticed, this sort of situation *would* qualify
> as a major emergency. And given both the Depression and WWII as
> precedents, you'd better believe that in time of "national
> emergency" the government *can* "draft" you into civilian jobs.

You're just being contrary here.  In both cases, the government 
didn't "draft" people to face these crises.  In the case of the 
Depression, FDR established jobs programs to employ the masses, 
included the largest of all jobs programs, rearmament.  There was not 
a "draft."  The folks involved could have stayed on the dole, and 
lived in Hoovervilles, but given the choice between unemployment and 
working for the TVA, or WPA, most were going to take the latter.

In the case of WW2, essential defense jobs had a tendency to lower 
1's draft status, making them more attractive than working for the 
corner market...  It's admittedly trivia, but most historians believe 
that WW2 had more to do with pulling the US out of the depression 
than the New Deal...  We drafted people into the military, but nobody 
was jailed because they failed to help make tanks...nobody fled to 
Canada to avoid having to work for Boeing making B-17's.

> Please allow for the use of some common sense.

I was...and would be more than willing to if you were using some.  

> Ahem. What have *you* been smoking? The "unemployment rate" in the
> US has been a fiction since the 60s.

OK, for arguments sake, lets assume that the "real" unemployment rate 
is 15%.  That's 39 million to replace 5 billion...  Ain't gonna 
happen...

> *Official* unemployment rates may be running that low. In case you
> weren't aware of it, they quit counting you as unemployed if you are
> no longer "officially" looking for work. There are quite likely

You forgot to mention that you are counted as employed if in the 
military, and you aren't counted if you've been out of work for a 
year or more...whether you're "actively looking" or not...

I will concede the fiction of the unemployment rate...  My main point 
still stands...

> >  There aren't that many people who are free to ship off to take
> >  ALL 
> > those jobs in the rest of the world...at least not without having
> > to be replaced at home...  And incidentally, you're going to need
> > MORE of them to do the same jobs that are done over here, due to
> > lack of automation, support services...
> 

> In any case, you don't need to get *everything* going, and you can
> prioritize things. First priority are the easy to restart things
> (like oil fields) and the things that *have* to get restarted no
> matter how difficult.

By prioritizing things, you are conceding that some things aren't 
going to happen immediately, which is my point all along.  Ripple 
effects.  Well, we can only keep half of those South African platinum 
mines going, so half of the industries that use that material have 
higher prices or maybe even no supply at all, lower sales, leading to layoffs...etc...

> >> > Doubtful.  This is an oversimplification.  First of all,
> >> > consider the type of people who are going to colonize a typical
> >> > world: Ambitious, greedy nobles who see an opportunity to
> >> > squeeze miners into a little kish, and impressed labor, because
> >> > the average factory worker, or teacher, or grav cargo carrier
> >> > from 2 parsecs over isn't going to give up his comfortable,
> >> > safe job for a nasty, brutish short life in a mine on the
> >> > latest frontier world...
> >> 

Actually, it is pretty much a conclusion that the majority of 19th 
century colonies were financial losers for the nations involved, the 
prime exception being India.  Most of the European countries wound up 
investing more money in the colonies than they ever took out...

Probably most of the colonization examples from Earth aren't really 
going to work...

It sounds to some extent like we're splitting hairs on this 1, so 
we'll have to agree to disagree... 

> >> 1849 Gold Rush, to the Alaska Oil Boom. The guy at the local
> >> McDonalds is quite likely to be *very* willing to go to this
> >> frontier planet a couple parsecs away because he can do the exact
> >> same kind of work and get paid ten times what he's earning now.
> >
> > Wow, Leonard we agree on something...  They're going to be paying
> > these guys 10 times as much, and guess what, inflation...increased
> > raw materials costs, layoffs as the result of lagging sales...
> 
> We seem to be able to learn. The Alaska boom didn't cause near the

We seem to be a bit arrogant...

Re: real vs. artificial value:

Worth is in the eye of the beholder, and changes over time. 
 200 years ago, no one even knew what oil was...  200 years from now, 
it probably won't be used for all that much...other than plastics.

In any case, your flawed argument about real vs. artificial value doesn't 
stop inflation, or higher costs of living though.  Ever lived in Alaska?  
I've got a couple of relatives who have...  Yes, the jobs pay well, but the 
cost of living is ridiculous...  

> And I'll through your "economics" arguement right back at you. Given
> a chgoice between high tech import, and low-tech locally produced,
> guess which wins if both are adequate for the job? 

Obviously the low tech stuff, but in the early stages, you aren't 
going to have the people to produce even all the low tech stuff you 
need.  In the long run, you are absolutely correct.  

> And I'll "utter nonsense" right back at you. That may be what you do
> if you are *exporting* the output of the mine. But there are going
> to be mines producing material for *local* use. And it makes *no*
> economic sense to waste a starship on hauling stuff point to point
> on the planet. A "shuttle" type vehicle is a different matter.

Who was talking about using a starship to haul stuff point to point.  
If you're original colony is near the mine, you won't be doing point 
to point hauling...

You are "exporting" the output of the mine.  Otherwise, why did you 
set up a new mining colony in the 1st place?  Maybe later, when the 
colony has developed, then you're going to undoubtedly see industry, 
commerce, etc. grow up around the mines...but in the beginning, you 
have the mines, and direct support to the mining and export 
operations...

As far as the orbital shuttle, this would be of course based on the 
assumption that you are operating in widely seperated locations.  In 
a sense there are times when we could both be right...

> And don't forget, it makes more sense to "refine" ore on-planet, and
> ship anything "ingots" or the like than to ship raw ore.

I will concede this point, it would be another strain on local 
technology though, at first...

> And that puts you one step from starting to make things from the
> metal.

True, but the leap from 1 to the other will be a gradual process.  
Remember, the mining colony was undoubtedly initially established to 
provide raw material to another world, whether in or out of system.  
The economics are going to make them the biggest customer for your 
ingots in the beginning.  Later on, perhaps not...

> So the mines would be on planets that were being colonized for some
> *other* reason. 

Wouldn't have to be...  There are only a finite number of resources 
on any 1 world...  If the resources that 1 world are low on happen to 
be in abundance by mining  them on another, you bet they would think 
about establishing a mining colony...  If the industrial world had enough 
resources, why would they bother to establish a colony of any sort?

> And there aren't going to *be* mining colonies of that sort. Please
> tell me *what* they are mining with low tech means that is worth the
> trouble? And how did they locate the deposit in the first place?

OK, assume that they're mining with high tech means, which is my 
original argument.  In terms of locating it, it would be easier then, 
than it is now.  The same sensor technology that goes into 
densitometers and the like would definitely be useful for locating 
likely deposits...

Most likely though, the final hunting is going to be done on the 
ground...but its not going to take a large group of folks if you've 
narrowed the possibilities from orbit first, and we can already do 
that to some extent, now...  

Re: no mining colonies on vacuum worlds:

Change vacuum to exotic atmosphere worlds then...  

I agree with the rest of your points though...

> > As for agriculture, I would agree, but again, not as much as you
> > think early on in either sector and maybe none at all if the world
> > doesn't have them...
> 
> If the world isn't suitable for normal agriculture, then you'll have
> aeroponics and hydroponics as a *required* part of the life support
> system! 

Can't argue here...
 
> > There are a lot of worlds in the Traveller universe that humans
> > wouldn't *want* to live on...
> 
> And they require special reasons for people to live on them. As well
> as a *much* higher tech level, just to *live*.
> 
> >> Plastics and structural steel are a somewhat different matter.
> >> You'll need more gear hauled in to start up, but not as much as
> >> you might think. 
> >
> > Wait a minute.  This is a mining colony...the analogy is a mining
> > town, not Detroit...  They aren't going to be able to produce
> > everything early on, their main focus is to mine those rare
> > elements for the developed industrial world which is Jump-2 away,
> > not to build their own industry...
> 
> *You* are assuming "mining colony". I am assuming a colony that is
> mining as a way to pay for imports. A *much* different situation.
> And a *lot* more justifiable than a "mining colony".

Actually, we're splitting hairs here.  This, in essence is what I'm 
envisioning.  Obviously, if the mine doesn't export more that it 
imports in terms of value, it isn't going to last long...

And you never refuted my main argument, which is that the un-mining 
colony is not going to be able to produce everything it needs (you 
concede that in your argument).

> Not really. If they are mining some metal ore, it takes very little
> extra to produce metal ingots. And very little beyond *that* to add
> the ability to fabricate some things from the metal. 

OK, I can see your train of thought, but making things from metal 
isn't high tech.  The Sumerians did that...  The US, which is high tech, seems 
to be letting other countries make things from metal, to a large extent...

> >> No. I'm aware of economics. Including the fact that in a colony
> >> type situation, *people* are going to be the expensive resource.
> >> "Slave labor" doesn't cut it, especially if you need then to do
> >> anything "technical". 

Heck...remember slave labor could mean a lot of things.  Entice them 
over to the new planet with the thrill of a job that pays a lot more 
money...then they discover they have to buy from the company store 
that charges 5 times as much...and the bars that charge too much, and 
the housing that the company provides is expensive, and there's that 
little clause in the contract that says you can't leave until you 
pay off your debts...

Call it indentured servitude, or being Shanghaied if you wish...  I 
don't care to bandy semantics...

> That was in a *highly* artifical example. 

True...   We really have 2 different lines of discussion going 
here...

> You don't send transportees to inhospitable worlds unless you have
> no alternative or you are willing to pay the *high* support costs.
> Unless, that is, you are using it as a thinly disguised death
> sentence.

OK...we're in agreement here...

> Excuse me? The industrial revolution occured in the 1800s! And it
> only involved *millions* of people. The only people outside of
> Europe "required" were the folks raising cotton in India (which is
> what fed the cotton mills).

And raising cotton in the southern US, and Egypt, and a few other 
places.  Don't forget all those guys in the Caribbean growing sugar, 
tea growers in China and India, and several others...

Actually, my feeling is that the Traveller system gets it right.  
Population is only 1 modifier...  Technology doesn't really develop 
unless there is a compelling need for it...  In the case of the 
industrial revolution, it was the byproduct of a population boom 
brought on by improving public health systems in Britain, later in 
Continental Europe and North America...  It is quite possible that a 
fairly high population world is going to be relatively low tech, it 
is also quite possible that a low population research station is 
going to be very high tech within its narrow specialization. 

I do think a certain minimum amount of population is going to be 
necessary to achieve high levels of technology in every endeavor.  We 
obviously disagree on what that minimum number is...  So be it...

> What is needed is a certain amount of infrastructure, not some
> specific population.

Infrastructure, of course, is nothing but a fancy, late 20th century, 
new age term for a certain level of economic activity, which would 
support technological achievement, within a chosen field or fields... 
 There are always compelling, economic reasons for technological 
development.  Maybe not for pure research, although this could be 
debated as well, but technology isn't pure research.  It's applied research, 
based on the discoveries of pure research.

In an interstellar society, remember that the economy is not 1 world, 
but rather a group of worlds.  So the compelling reason for research 
on 1 world may not have originated there...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:02:52 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #429

On 18 Sep 96 at 22:27, Susan M. Shock spewed:

> I apologize for the inaccuracy. However, I will quote from the
> credits to the Imperial Encyclopedia, which I have recently gained a
> copy of:

No doubt, DGP did update the Library data at that time, and they did 
add/update a number of entries.  

> A friend of mine who owns the Library Data books reports that there
> are differences (usually in the form of additions) to much of the
> data in the Imperial Encyclopedia. Also, editors can have quite an
> impact on a published work.

True...a number of the entries were slightly updated with additions.  
Many (indeed, most) of them were lifted verbatim...

Good point about editing though...

>         It was also pointed out earlier that DGP themselves were
> inconsistent about the size of the Sylean Federation.

Yeah, I noticed that 1 too, and pointed it out earlier...  

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:02:52 -0800
Subject: Re: none

On 19 Sep 96 at 5:11, gdw.support@genie.com spewed:

> > Then comes DGP.  They generate all those nifty sectors that now
> > sit in GEnie's archives, as well as numerous ftp sites.  But in
> > many cases, they had errors
> 
> I like Dave Nilsen's description of "the sound of a computer with
> its needle stuck in the same groove
> 

This is an interesting, and apt description...  :-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:05:40 -0800
Subject: Re: other places...

On 19 Sep 96 at 11:31, Timothy Collinson spewed:

> 
> >BTW, just to make things different, I'm often want to run a couple
> >of sessions where the players important NPC meetings occur places
> >other than a bar...

> Try the local library....  ;-)   - assuming its not a high-tech
> world

I've used the libraries, a meeting at a local grav ball tournament, 
meetings in parks, any number of places.  Let's face it the starport 
bar, local tavern, etc where you meet PC's is the single BIGGEST 
cliche in RPG's...  

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:13:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Size of Sylean Fed/3rd Imp at Year 0

Hi all.

======Steve Bonneville said:======
* It isn't entirely clear just how much territory the Syleans controlled
    at Dawn.  One source claims that they had control of the Core sector;
    another implies that they started with a handful of worlds; a third
    notes that the Imperium's reach extended 100 subsectors by Cleon's
    death.  Any could happen, I suppose, but the Imperium must be large
    enough to end ships into the Spinward Marches by 60, and for the
    Pacification Campaigns to make sense.
==================================

My interpretation, based on what I've read in the CT Library Data
supplements and Imperial Encyclopedia, is that the Sylean Federation
controlled a handful of worlds around -650 and expanded to control a
sector by about -30.  This was about as big as they could get with the
form of government they had.  Then came Cleon.  He figured on expanding
into new territories but realized that a different form of government
would be necessary.  So, using the fact that one of the RoM governments
had had its seat on Sylea as justification, he declared the 3rd Imp into
existence around year 0 (though I think the "Year 0" thing actually came
afterwards as a retroactive calendar change). Rapid expansion followed.

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:12:16 -0700
Subject: Re: RC Cults

lewis@chara.gsu.edu wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> In the RC setting, the planet Lucifer is a haven for crackpots mystics
> and all sorts of wackos.  I figured all those wackos needed some wacko
> groups to join, so I made up a few.  I tried to write them from the
> perspective of the group, so when I say Blipdooppop destroyed the
> Ancients, this is what her followers think. I am not changing Traveller
> Canon.  These are just quick sketches of the groups, feel free to
> add/subtract/ and mutilate for your own purposes.  Or if you have a
> wacko group of your, I'd love to see it.
> Lewis Roberts

This is an interesting take on the Lutalan's.  I always just thought of 
them as a bunch of ganga smoking anarchistic rastafarians.  Dedicated to 
the ideals of personal freedoms and government with little authority or 
control of the populace.  To this end I thought that they'd be more like 
a bunch of dope smoking painters wandering in and out of bordello's 
writing poetry and trying to understand the nature of the universe.  
Perhaps under that last one there is room for a great deal of religious 
varity and freedom.  

It's quite an interesting bent, Southern Baptist Minsters of Lucifer 
preaching on the ways of the Ancients and their amusment park down in 
Okepanokie that everyone should visit and spent lots of money at.

It was always my opinion that if anyone in the RC should have a weird 
almost incomprehnsible guardian spirit kind of religion it would be the 
Spiri.  The kind of society where karma and such were such an integral 
part of their everyday life that others were often confused with what was 
occuring.  Examples from religion and history would be used as often as 
possible, meditation and trance like states to clense the soul would be  
common and the idea of opening your mind to the possibilities around you 
would be paramont.

It's early in the morning so perhaps I'm just rambling.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #433
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Traveller-digest        Thursday, 19 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 434

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Highly off topic.  Credit Card Databases for sale.
         2. Re: Disppearing Games Shops
         3. Server Crash (again)
         4. Re: Moving stars
         5. Free Lance Traveller
         6. RE: Random Bar Tables
         7. Re: none
         8. Re: Re: T4 Scouts
         9. Megacorps
        10. Re: other places...
        11. Re: Traveller Songs
        12. CD-ROM Burning
        13. Re: I'll Drink Another Have, Bartender...
        14. Re: Thanks for the info...
        15. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #429
        16. Re: Frontierthink
        17. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #432
        18. Size of Sylean Fed/3rd Imp at Year 0
        19. Re: RC Cults
        20. Re: Traveller Songs
        21. Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word...
        22. Re: sustainable technologie

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Erik Yocum <ecy@umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:23:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Highly off topic.  Credit Card Databases for sale.

Sorry about this, but I thought people would want to know.

I already called them, and they're taking only faxed or written requests
to have information removed.

_____________________________________________________________________
Erik Yocum						ecy@umich.edu

Medical Center Information Technology		       Tel:  936-4906
Taubman Center B1165, Box 0308			       Fax:  763-6231

Remember:  With paradigms, Shift Happens


     
     
==========================================================================
     
Your name, social security number, current address, previous addresses, 
mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal information
are now available to anyone with a credit card through a new Lexis 
database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this information 
could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow someone else 
to use your identity.
     
You can have your name and information removed from this list by making 
a telephone request. Call (800) 543-6862, select option 4 and then 
option 3 ("all other questions") and tell the representative answering 
that you wish to remove your name from the P-trax database. You may 
also send a fax to (513) 865-7360, or physical mail to LEXIS-NEXIS / 
P.O. Box 933 / Dayton, Ohio 45401-0933. Sending physical mail to 
confirm your name has been removed is always a good idea.
     
As word of the existence of this database has spread on the net, 
Lexis-Nexis has been inundated with calls, and has set up a special 
set of operators to handle the volume. In addition, Andrew Bleh 
(rhymes with "Play") is a manager responsible for this product, and 
is the person to whom complaints about the service could be directed. 
He can be reached at the above 800 number. Ask for extension 3385. 
According to Lexis, the manager responsible is Bill Fister at extension 
1364.
     
I called this morning and had my name removed. The representative 
will need your name and social security number to remove you from 
the list. I suggest that we inundate these people with requests to 
remove our info from the list and forward this e-mail to everyone we 
know.
     
==========================================================================
     
     
- -
     
     



------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:33:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Disppearing Games Shops

On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

> Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> <SNIPPY-POO>
> > Bridge is awesome.  I assume that my lack of enthusiasm for CCGs (I enjoy
> 
> I had no intention of slamming Bridge at all. My tounge was firmly in cheek 
> :-Q
> 

I probably knew that (had I thought about it),  my reply was supposed to
be in the same tone (lighthearted), but may have come across wrong, so for
the recod; :)  

I'm so glad this mailing list is not on usenet.

Pete

P.S. I asked this before, but has anyone gotten ideas on using The
Netrunner CCG in traveller?  Maybe I should be asking on a cyberpunk list,
no?

I am planning on hashing something out in this vein with the primary
player involved in the next few weeks, so let me know 1). ideas, and 2).
if anyone else is interested in the results.

and also if anyone wants to know what the heck I'm talking about.




------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 19 Sep 1996 15:35:11 GMT
Subject: Server Crash (again)

Last night our server crashed again.  I find this encouraging, given that I
will be responsible for maintaining one of the same type in a few months :-/

If anyone sent me information since last Friday, you'll have to send it
again.

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:54:26 -0800
Subject: Re: Moving stars

On 18 Sep 96 at 4:53, Glenn Grant spewed:

> Stars, however, are not known to be carried off by African or
> European swallows. Gripped by the husk or otherwise.

Maybe two at a time in tandem???  :-)

Great post, BTW...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 10:45:45 -0400
Subject: Free Lance Traveller

I asked Jeff Zeitlin about his Freelance Traveller web page and he replied.

> Why not send your work to _both_?  Freelance Traveller is
> designed to be a strictly electronic "Magazine" for Traveller,
> and a resource of high-quality material, just as JTAS is for
> printed material.  Freelance Traveller doesn't require
> exclusivity (both because of my personal philosophy and because
> I'm not allowed to pay for submissions, or charge for the

Okay, cool, I guess I misunderstood what you were trying to accomplish.
 Well I guess I'll send you some files. 
Lewis Roberts

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:54:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: Random Bar Tables

On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

> Peter  H. Brenton said:
> 
> > <alot>
> >
> >See, I told you we could do better!
> >
> >Pete 
> 
> Somehow, I can tell that your'e a TNE ref/player*.
> 
> 					---Boyd
> 
> *(this is a reference to the, IMO, unnecesarily complex/over-complete TNE 
> rules)      ;-)>
> 
Actually, I use CT, when I need any rules at all, and am experimenting
with T4.

This was an excercise in fun (and getting carried away), I wouldn't use a
random encounter generator, only a "random" NPC (with "random"
personality, i.e. made up on the spot, not rolled on a table) and behave
appropriately (i.e. roleplay).  Getting lucky would depend a lot more on
the judged actions of the characters and their skills/attributes than
anything else.

On the other hand, I had fun going through Greg Porter's Macho Women with
Guns (characters have skills like "Shooting Things", "Hitting things with
Other Things", and "Do Technical Stuff") and think the possibilities of
tongue-in-cheek tables (rampant in that work) are great.

Pete

Who used the rules twice in the entire last gaming session.


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:02:52 -0800
Subject: Re: none

On 19 Sep 96 at 5:11, gdw.support@genie.com spewed:

> > Then comes DGP.  They generate all those nifty sectors that now
> > sit in GEnie's archives, as well as numerous ftp sites.  But in
> > many cases, they had errors
> 
> I like Dave Nilsen's description of "the sound of a computer with
> its needle stuck in the same groove
> 

This is an interesting, and apt description...  :-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 19 Sep 1996 15:56:08 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: T4 Scouts

>My question still stands.  Why are the Scout,  of all the military space
>services, ignored?  The Marines, Navy both have a chance to be "rewarded" as
>do Agents, Entertainers, Rogues and even Nobles (of all people).

Are scouts military?  I've never played them that way.  In fact, my scouts
are aggressively non-military, none of this silly saluting business for them!

As to TAS membership, if scouts are, at this stage in the empire, occupied
with scouting new worlds rather than communicating with explored ones, then
possibly they rarely encounter enopugh members of TAS to have a reasonable
chance of doing a heroic deed - or maybe the spit-n-polish, gleaming-uniform
types steal the credit :-)

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 11:12:42 -0400
Subject: Megacorps

Hi,
People have been talking about Megacorps a bit, and I thought I'd throw
out a question that has been in the back of my mind for a while.  
In several of the T4 documents I have seen they talk about Cleon
Industry. (I think that is the name) the compnay which makes Fusion+,
and is owned by Cleon.  What happens to this company by 1100.  Has it
been absorbed into another Megacorp, or is it one of the oher
megacorps, but with a new name?

Lewis Roberts

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:05:40 -0800
Subject: Re: other places...

On 19 Sep 96 at 11:31, Timothy Collinson spewed:

> 
> >BTW, just to make things different, I'm often want to run a couple
> >of sessions where the players important NPC meetings occur places
> >other than a bar...

> Try the local library....  ;-)   - assuming its not a high-tech
> world

I've used the libraries, a meeting at a local grav ball tournament, 
meetings in parks, any number of places.  Let's face it the starport 
bar, local tavern, etc where you meet PC's is the single BIGGEST 
cliche in RPG's...  

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 19 Sep 1996 16:13:42 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller Songs

>OOOOOOOHHHHHHH!!!!!
>I'M A RAMBLIN' WRECK
>FROM HIVER TEC,
>AND A HELL OF AN ENGINEER!
>
>There was a whole song there once but I can't remember any more of it.

That's because you have to get as drunk as you were when you first sang it! 
Go to Bernoulli's Pub, have 40 beer, and it'll come back :-)

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 19 Sep 1996 16:10:58 GMT
Subject: CD-ROM Burning

>In the interest of ease of porting, I suggest HTML format - browsers exist
>for all platforms, and the CD could be burned in 9660 format (readable on
>Mac/Unix/Windows) for minimal hassle.

I have a student who can do this (and is looking for a client for his coop
project).  Of course, there's a _lot_ of copyright issues that would need
dealing with first.  

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:25:58 -0800
Subject: Re: I'll Drink Another Have, Bartender...

On 18 Sep 96 at 16:54, Steve Charlton/Avalon Softwar spewed:

> Maybe not; LARP is becoming popular for some reason, and has all
> sorts of dangers associated with it:
> 
> "Dammit, man!  This is roleplaying!  Now shut up and drink another
> fifth, then tell me what your character does then..."

ROFL...  :-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: hal@buffnet.net
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:48:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Thanks for the info...

Hello Edward,
  Thanks for the information on the Metacorps.  Oddly enough, they don't
have Sternmetals <grin>.  
  Now if I could only discover what happened to my copy of MERCHANT PRINCE...

Hal


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:02:52 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #429

On 18 Sep 96 at 22:27, Susan M. Shock spewed:

> I apologize for the inaccuracy. However, I will quote from the
> credits to the Imperial Encyclopedia, which I have recently gained a
> copy of:

No doubt, DGP did update the Library data at that time, and they did 
add/update a number of entries.  

> A friend of mine who owns the Library Data books reports that there
> are differences (usually in the form of additions) to much of the
> data in the Imperial Encyclopedia. Also, editors can have quite an
> impact on a published work.

True...a number of the entries were slightly updated with additions.  
Many (indeed, most) of them were lifted verbatim...

Good point about editing though...

>         It was also pointed out earlier that DGP themselves were
> inconsistent about the size of the Sylean Federation.

Yeah, I noticed that 1 too, and pointed it out earlier...  

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 19 Sep 1996 16:21:52 GMT
Subject: Re: Frontierthink

>Now you have hit on one of the big failings of Traveller as a 
>role-playing game - what, no experience points? 

Not necesarily.  I liked that when I started playing, because experience
points tend to limit many players to just those actions that are rewarded. 
My CT solution was to give players skill rolls at the same rate as in
character generation, with the table chosen being based on their activities
during the last four years.

> live fast, die wide!

So what you want is a sprinting sumo wrestler?  :-)

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 19 Sep 1996 16:18:03 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #432

>Of course, the Imperium has to be able to find 'em first.

I required my players to keep the Scout Service apprised of their location. 
If they didn't, well, the Navy got involved.  No 'hue and cry', just a lot of
blokes looking out for them.  Sooner or later they would be caught.

Same applied for banks, except they employed a system of rewards for
skip-tracers.  (Was a JTAS article about this years ago.)  Again, sooner or
later it would be time to pay the piper.  Sometimes years later.

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:13:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Size of Sylean Fed/3rd Imp at Year 0

Hi all.

======Steve Bonneville said:======
* It isn't entirely clear just how much territory the Syleans controlled
    at Dawn.  One source claims that they had control of the Core sector;
    another implies that they started with a handful of worlds; a third
    notes that the Imperium's reach extended 100 subsectors by Cleon's
    death.  Any could happen, I suppose, but the Imperium must be large
    enough to end ships into the Spinward Marches by 60, and for the
    Pacification Campaigns to make sense.
==================================

My interpretation, based on what I've read in the CT Library Data
supplements and Imperial Encyclopedia, is that the Sylean Federation
controlled a handful of worlds around -650 and expanded to control a
sector by about -30.  This was about as big as they could get with the
form of government they had.  Then came Cleon.  He figured on expanding
into new territories but realized that a different form of government
would be necessary.  So, using the fact that one of the RoM governments
had had its seat on Sylea as justification, he declared the 3rd Imp into
existence around year 0 (though I think the "Year 0" thing actually came
afterwards as a retroactive calendar change). Rapid expansion followed.

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:12:16 -0700
Subject: Re: RC Cults

lewis@chara.gsu.edu wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> In the RC setting, the planet Lucifer is a haven for crackpots mystics
> and all sorts of wackos.  I figured all those wackos needed some wacko
> groups to join, so I made up a few.  I tried to write them from the
> perspective of the group, so when I say Blipdooppop destroyed the
> Ancients, this is what her followers think. I am not changing Traveller
> Canon.  These are just quick sketches of the groups, feel free to
> add/subtract/ and mutilate for your own purposes.  Or if you have a
> wacko group of your, I'd love to see it.
> Lewis Roberts

This is an interesting take on the Lutalan's.  I always just thought of 
them as a bunch of ganga smoking anarchistic rastafarians.  Dedicated to 
the ideals of personal freedoms and government with little authority or 
control of the populace.  To this end I thought that they'd be more like 
a bunch of dope smoking painters wandering in and out of bordello's 
writing poetry and trying to understand the nature of the universe.  
Perhaps under that last one there is room for a great deal of religious 
varity and freedom.  

It's quite an interesting bent, Southern Baptist Minsters of Lucifer 
preaching on the ways of the Ancients and their amusment park down in 
Okepanokie that everyone should visit and spent lots of money at.

It was always my opinion that if anyone in the RC should have a weird 
almost incomprehnsible guardian spirit kind of religion it would be the 
Spiri.  The kind of society where karma and such were such an integral 
part of their everyday life that others were often confused with what was 
occuring.  Examples from religion and history would be used as often as 
possible, meditation and trance like states to clense the soul would be  
common and the idea of opening your mind to the possibilities around you 
would be paramont.

It's early in the morning so perhaps I'm just rambling.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:53:24 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller Songs

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> >OOOOOOOHHHHHHH!!!!!
> >I'M A RAMBLIN' WRECK
> >FROM HIVER TEC,
> >AND A HELL OF AN ENGINEER!
> >
> >There was a whole song there once but I can't remember any more of it.
> 
>That's because you have to get as drunk as you were when you first sang 
>it! Go to Bernoulli's Pub, have 40 beer, and it'll come back :-)

Thats what missing, perhaps if I just hold a pint I'll be coherent 
enought to write it all down.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:03:38 -0700
Subject: Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word...

On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org> said:

>At 10:05 AM -0400 9/18/96, Peter  H. Brenton wrote:
>>On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
>>CT= Old Testament
>>MT= New Testament
>>TNE = The Koran
>>
>>So;
>>
>>CT Players = Jews
>>MT Players = Christians
>>TNE Players = Moslem
>>
>>Does that make all of us T4 Players "Jews for Jesus"?
>
>CT = Orthodox Jews
>T4 = Reform Jews

Think about it for a moment:  The system keeps dying, only to be reborn in a
new, better form, striving to overcome its previous faults.  The end goal?
The ultimate Traveller.

It's obvious - this is the Buddhist roleplaying game.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:54:26 -0800
Subject: Re: sustainable technologie

On 17 Sep 96 at 23:15, Leonard Erickson spewed:

> In mail you write:
> 
> >> Two comments:
> >> 1. Draft them (admittedly a last resort)
> >
> > Uh, last I knew, this was a democracy, and you can't draft people
> > into civilian jobs.  Now admittedly, you can raise wages for such
> > jobs to the point where it would be more attractive, and this is
> > what would happen long term, but you don't draft people to work
> > for Anaconda...
> 
> In case you hadn't noticed, this sort of situation *would* qualify
> as a major emergency. And given both the Depression and WWII as
> precedents, you'd better believe that in time of "national
> emergency" the government *can* "draft" you into civilian jobs.

You're just being contrary here.  In both cases, the government 
didn't "draft" people to face these crises.  In the case of the 
Depression, FDR established jobs programs to employ the masses, 
included the largest of all jobs programs, rearmament.  There was not 
a "draft."  The folks involved could have stayed on the dole, and 
lived in Hoovervilles, but given the choice between unemployment and 
working for the TVA, or WPA, most were going to take the latter.

In the case of WW2, essential defense jobs had a tendency to lower 
1's draft status, making them more attractive than working for the 
corner market...  It's admittedly trivia, but most historians believe 
that WW2 had more to do with pulling the US out of the depression 
than the New Deal...  We drafted people into the military, but nobody 
was jailed because they failed to help make tanks...nobody fled to 
Canada to avoid having to work for Boeing making B-17's.

> Please allow for the use of some common sense.

I was...and would be more than willing to if you were using some.  

> Ahem. What have *you* been smoking? The "unemployment rate" in the
> US has been a fiction since the 60s.

OK, for arguments sake, lets assume that the "real" unemployment rate 
is 15%.  That's 39 million to replace 5 billion...  Ain't gonna 
happen...

> *Official* unemployment rates may be running that low. In case you
> weren't aware of it, they quit counting you as unemployed if you are
> no longer "officially" looking for work. There are quite likely

You forgot to mention that you are counted as employed if in the 
military, and you aren't counted if you've been out of work for a 
year or more...whether you're "actively looking" or not...

I will concede the fiction of the unemployment rate...  My main point 
still stands...

> >  There aren't that many people who are free to ship off to take
> >  ALL 
> > those jobs in the rest of the world...at least not without having
> > to be replaced at home...  And incidentally, you're going to need
> > MORE of them to do the same jobs that are done over here, due to
> > lack of automation, support services...
> 

> In any case, you don't need to get *everything* going, and you can
> prioritize things. First priority are the easy to restart things
> (like oil fields) and the things that *have* to get restarted no
> matter how difficult.

By prioritizing things, you are conceding that some things aren't 
going to happen immediately, which is my point all along.  Ripple 
effects.  Well, we can only keep half of those South African platinum 
mines going, so half of the industries that use that material have 
higher prices or maybe even no supply at all, lower sales, leading to layoffs...etc...

> >> > Doubtful.  This is an oversimplification.  First of all,
> >> > consider the type of people who are going to colonize a typical
> >> > world: Ambitious, greedy nobles who see an opportunity to
> >> > squeeze miners into a little kish, and impressed labor, because
> >> > the average factory worker, or teacher, or grav cargo carrier
> >> > from 2 parsecs over isn't going to give up his comfortable,
> >> > safe job for a nasty, brutish short life in a mine on the
> >> > latest frontier world...
> >> 

Actually, it is pretty much a conclusion that the majority of 19th 
century colonies were financial losers for the nations involved, the 
prime exception being India.  Most of the European countries wound up 
investing more money in the colonies than they ever took out...

Probably most of the colonization examples from Earth aren't really 
going to work...

It sounds to some extent like we're splitting hairs on this 1, so 
we'll have to agree to disagree... 

> >> 1849 Gold Rush, to the Alaska Oil Boom. The guy at the local
> >> McDonalds is quite likely to be *very* willing to go to this
> >> frontier planet a couple parsecs away because he can do the exact
> >> same kind of work and get paid ten times what he's earning now.
> >
> > Wow, Leonard we agree on something...  They're going to be paying
> > these guys 10 times as much, and guess what, inflation...increased
> > raw materials costs, layoffs as the result of lagging sales...
> 
> We seem to be able to learn. The Alaska boom didn't cause near the

We seem to be a bit arrogant...

Re: real vs. artificial value:

Worth is in the eye of the beholder, and changes over time. 
 200 years ago, no one even knew what oil was...  200 years from now, 
it probably won't be used for all that much...other than plastics.

In any case, your flawed argument about real vs. artificial value doesn't 
stop inflation, or higher costs of living though.  Ever lived in Alaska?  
I've got a couple of relatives who have...  Yes, the jobs pay well, but the 
cost of living is ridiculous...  

> And I'll through your "economics" arguement right back at you. Given
> a chgoice between high tech import, and low-tech locally produced,
> guess which wins if both are adequate for the job? 

Obviously the low tech stuff, but in the early stages, you aren't 
going to have the people to produce even all the low tech stuff you 
need.  In the long run, you are absolutely correct.  

> And I'll "utter nonsense" right back at you. That may be what you do
> if you are *exporting* the output of the mine. But there are going
> to be mines producing material for *local* use. And it makes *no*
> economic sense to waste a starship on hauling stuff point to point
> on the planet. A "shuttle" type vehicle is a different matter.

Who was talking about using a starship to haul stuff point to point.  
If you're original colony is near the mine, you won't be doing point 
to point hauling...

You are "exporting" the output of the mine.  Otherwise, why did you 
set up a new mining colony in the 1st place?  Maybe later, when the 
colony has developed, then you're going to undoubtedly see industry, 
commerce, etc. grow up around the mines...but in the beginning, you 
have the mines, and direct support to the mining and export 
operations...

As far as the orbital shuttle, this would be of course based on the 
assumption that you are operating in widely seperated locations.  In 
a sense there are times when we could both be right...

> And don't forget, it makes more sense to "refine" ore on-planet, and
> ship anything "ingots" or the like than to ship raw ore.

I will concede this point, it would be another strain on local 
technology though, at first...

> And that puts you one step from starting to make things from the
> metal.

True, but the leap from 1 to the other will be a gradual process.  
Remember, the mining colony was undoubtedly initially established to 
provide raw material to another world, whether in or out of system.  
The economics are going to make them the biggest customer for your 
ingots in the beginning.  Later on, perhaps not...

> So the mines would be on planets that were being colonized for some
> *other* reason. 

Wouldn't have to be...  There are only a finite number of resources 
on any 1 world...  If the resources that 1 world are low on happen to 
be in abundance by mining  them on another, you bet they would think 
about establishing a mining colony...  If the industrial world had enough 
resources, why would they bother to establish a colony of any sort?

> And there aren't going to *be* mining colonies of that sort. Please
> tell me *what* they are mining with low tech means that is worth the
> trouble? And how did they locate the deposit in the first place?

OK, assume that they're mining with high tech means, which is my 
original argument.  In terms of locating it, it would be easier then, 
than it is now.  The same sensor technology that goes into 
densitometers and the like would definitely be useful for locating 
likely deposits...

Most likely though, the final hunting is going to be done on the 
ground...but its not going to take a large group of folks if you've 
narrowed the possibilities from orbit first, and we can already do 
that to some extent, now...  

Re: no mining colonies on vacuum worlds:

Change vacuum to exotic atmosphere worlds then...  

I agree with the rest of your points though...

> > As for agriculture, I would agree, but again, not as much as you
> > think early on in either sector and maybe none at all if the world
> > doesn't have them...
> 
> If the world isn't suitable for normal agriculture, then you'll have
> aeroponics and hydroponics as a *required* part of the life support
> system! 

Can't argue here...
 
> > There are a lot of worlds in the Traveller universe that humans
> > wouldn't *want* to live on...
> 
> And they require special reasons for people to live on them. As well
> as a *much* higher tech level, just to *live*.
> 
> >> Plastics and structural steel are a somewhat different matter.
> >> You'll need more gear hauled in to start up, but not as much as
> >> you might think. 
> >
> > Wait a minute.  This is a mining colony...the analogy is a mining
> > town, not Detroit...  They aren't going to be able to produce
> > everything early on, their main focus is to mine those rare
> > elements for the developed industrial world which is Jump-2 away,
> > not to build their own industry...
> 
> *You* are assuming "mining colony". I am assuming a colony that is
> mining as a way to pay for imports. A *much* different situation.
> And a *lot* more justifiable than a "mining colony".

Actually, we're splitting hairs here.  This, in essence is what I'm 
envisioning.  Obviously, if the mine doesn't export more that it 
imports in terms of value, it isn't going to last long...

And you never refuted my main argument, which is that the un-mining 
colony is not going to be able to produce everything it needs (you 
concede that in your argument).

> Not really. If they are mining some metal ore, it takes very little
> extra to produce metal ingots. And very little beyond *that* to add
> the ability to fabricate some things from the metal. 

OK, I can see your train of thought, but making things from metal 
isn't high tech.  The Sumerians did that...  The US, which is high tech, seems 
to be letting other countries make things from metal, to a large extent...

> >> No. I'm aware of economics. Including the fact that in a colony
> >> type situation, *people* are going to be the expensive resource.
> >> "Slave labor" doesn't cut it, especially if you need then to do
> >> anything "technical". 

Heck...remember slave labor could mean a lot of things.  Entice them 
over to the new planet with the thrill of a job that pays a lot more 
money...then they discover they have to buy from the company store 
that charges 5 times as much...and the bars that charge too much, and 
the housing that the company provides is expensive, and there's that 
little clause in the contract that says you can't leave until you 
pay off your debts...

Call it indentured servitude, or being Shanghaied if you wish...  I 
don't care to bandy semantics...

> That was in a *highly* artifical example. 

True...   We really have 2 different lines of discussion going 
here...

> You don't send transportees to inhospitable worlds unless you have
> no alternative or you are willing to pay the *high* support costs.
> Unless, that is, you are using it as a thinly disguised death
> sentence.

OK...we're in agreement here...

> Excuse me? The industrial revolution occured in the 1800s! And it
> only involved *millions* of people. The only people outside of
> Europe "required" were the folks raising cotton in India (which is
> what fed the cotton mills).

And raising cotton in the southern US, and Egypt, and a few other 
places.  Don't forget all those guys in the Caribbean growing sugar, 
tea growers in China and India, and several others...

Actually, my feeling is that the Traveller system gets it right.  
Population is only 1 modifier...  Technology doesn't really develop 
unless there is a compelling need for it...  In the case of the 
industrial revolution, it was the byproduct of a population boom 
brought on by improving public health systems in Britain, later in 
Continental Europe and North America...  It is quite possible that a 
fairly high population world is going to be relatively low tech, it 
is also quite possible that a low population research station is 
going to be very high tech within its narrow specialization. 

I do think a certain minimum amount of population is going to be 
necessary to achieve high levels of technology in every endeavor.  We 
obviously disagree on what that minimum number is...  So be it...

> What is needed is a certain amount of infrastructure, not some
> specific population.

Infrastructure, of course, is nothing but a fancy, late 20th century, 
new age term for a certain level of economic activity, which would 
support technological achievement, within a chosen field or fields... 
 There are always compelling, economic reasons for technological 
development.  Maybe not for pure research, although this could be 
debated as well, but technology isn't pure research.  It's applied research, 
based on the discoveries of pure research.

In an interstellar society, remember that the economy is not 1 world, 
but rather a group of worlds.  So the compelling reason for research 
on 1 world may not have originated there...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #434
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Traveller-digest        Thursday, 19 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 435

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re:PC killing PC
         2. Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #421
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #422
         5. a pINT'S A POUND ETC.
         6. Anti-grav at TL8
         7. Re: a pINT'S A POUND ETC.
         8. Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
         9. HTML
        10. Re: Bar Encounters...
        11. SERIOUSLY OFF TOPIC!!!!
        12. Re: Hiver tech fight song notes
        13. Re: I have seen the Hardback
        14. Re: Traveller Drinking Game (was: Re: Bar Table)
        15. Re: Bar names
        16. Re: Dawn and Established History
        17. Re: Oh no a Kiwi!
        18. Re: Water in the desert...
        19. Re: a gallon of water
        20. Re: A gallon of water
        21. RE: Highly off topic
        22. Re: [T96#427] Traveller as Religion?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JENSM@scc.se (Johan Emanuelsson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 18:05:04 +0000
Subject: Re:PC killing PC

Story about PC:s killing PC:s

In one of our first sessions of RPG (it was D&D, more than ten years 
ago) a quite funny incident happend:

One of the players had two characters - a thief and a fighter. The 
thief was very greedy and the player let him try to pick-pocket the 
fighter.

The thief failed his skill-roles and ... yes ... got killed by the 
fighter!

Johan Emanuelson, Malmo, Sweden
jensm@scc.se

------------------------------

From: Will Richards <richarwt@jtasc.acom.mil>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:56:01 -0400
Subject: Re: CANON should be a 4 letter word

Canons should be spiked ;)

Once I came up with a neat idea on the list only to have a canon toting
individual shoot me down by quoting chapter and verse explaining that it was
not "CANON". It was very irritating, and trivial.

Rant mode off.

Will
Ron Phillips
Phone:(757) 686-7969
Fax : (757) 686-7836 
U.S. Atlantic Command
Joint Training, Analysis and Simulation Center


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 18:04 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #421

In-Reply-To: <9609171446.AA12536@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:47:05 -0800
Subject: Weird places to game...

Weird places to game over the years...

1:  A friends' dads auto parts business...

2:  A tent on a camping trip in high school...  (By Coleman lantern, 
no less) >>

On a bus, coming home from a shopping trip with my then girlfriend. The 
expression on the face of the passenger sitting opposite was amazing!

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 18:04 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #422

In-Reply-To: <9609171739.AA13132@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:04:01 -0800
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

On 16 Sep 96 at 11:24, Peter  H. Brenton spewed:

> The classic example was when (trying to test the moral limits of the
> characters) a full busload of Nuns got on the wrong end of a FGMP
> while two kittens, a puppy and a woman pushing a baby carriage
> crossed the street in front of it.

You're a sick man, Pete... :-) >>

Been there, done that. In a Shadowrun game I was in, we stormed a 
building full of Bad Guys(tm). Unfortunately, between our recon and the 
attack, someone had moved a bunch of nuns and a few dozen orphans into 
the building. Most've them were greasy stains by the time we'd 
discovered they weren't illusions, robots, or disguised villains...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: "Nick Meredith" <nickm@discover.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 18:20:04 +0001
Subject: a pINT'S A POUND ETC.

Boyd Said

>David J. Golden said:
>
>>        Ummm ... around here a gallon of water weighs 8 pounds ("a pint's a
>>pound the world around"). Unless we're talking different gallons. A gallon
>>of water then equals 3.6 liters (1 kilogram of water weighs 2.2 pounds and
>>displaces one liter).
>
>Well, that's what I remembered, but I thought I would try it...  Dang that 
>pesky scale!!!     		;-)
>Thanks for the correction.  Besides my faulty standards, do you have any input 
>to my question?  It would be appreciated.
>
>---Boyd

"Unless we're talking different gallons."
An Imperial gallon (British Empire) is still used in the UK and in 
some of Europe. In Imperial measure 8 pints make a gallon. A gallon 
is approx 4.5 litres. So a gallon weighs almost 10 lbs.

 


- ------------------------------
======================================================================
Cheers
Nick Meredith - nickm@discover.co.uk - Coventry, UK

------------------------------

From: brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:59:00 +0000
Subject: Anti-grav at TL8

Perhaps Imperium Games knew something we didn't when they moved 
antigrav tech...
Today's issue of New Scientist has an interesting article which 
claims that a Russian scientist may have developed a prototype 
anti-gravity machine. The machine apparently negates 2% of the weight 
of any object placed over it. It consists of a magnetically suspended 
ring of superconducting ceramic spinning at 5000 rpm. The expert 
commentators suggest that the effect may have something to do with 
gravitomagnetism, but from reading this article it would appear 
nobody can really explain it.
Because of this, and because of the withdrawal of the paper relating 
to the machine, which was going to be published in the Journal of 
Physics D:Applied Physics (apparently because of pressure from 
unnamed funding agencies, pending patent), I am very sceptical 
about this (it a bit like cold fusion all over again), still it's not April 1st, 
so who knows...

- --
Brendan

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:24:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: a pINT'S A POUND ETC.

A gallon is just over 8 lbs., now enough of this off topicness AND LOOK IT
UP IT YOU DON"T BELIEVE IT. ;)

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:26:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

At 09:04 AM 9/19/96 -0500, you wrote:
>OK folks, it looks like we're in danger of missing out on this Traveller 
>suite.  Therefore, all Mac users on this list _please_ make yourselves 
>known, along with the number of non-list Mac users you know.  If we can 
>get enough out there, we may be able to convince Jo to get it coded for 
>us!
>
>Alternately, is there a Mac coding god out there who would be willing to 
>convert it?  I'm a CodeWarrior newbie myself.
>
>By the way, I can speak for six myself, and know that both Glenn Grant 
>and Charles Collin and Darroch Elliott (and who knows who else, I'm just 
>pointing fingers here) should also have something to say on the matter.

Hmm... Should us DOS/Windows/Windows 95 people speak up to defend ourselves?
<grin>

Matthew Mactyre
mmactyre@concentric.net
http://www.cris.com/~mmactyre/
PGP public key available on request


------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 14:40:05 -0400
Subject: HTML

Hi,
I was wondering if any of you know of a good book on HTML.
I was looking for a book, that has value as a reference guide after
I've read it once.  Also one that doesn't treat me as an idiot and
wastes two chapters explaining what the Web is.  
Or is there an online reference that does the same.  

I have written several web pages, but they were done by cutting and
pasting from existing web pages.
THanks for any suggestions.
Lewis Roberts

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:59:41 -0800
Subject: Re: Bar Encounters...

On 18 Sep 96 at 5:36, Charles Collin spewed:

> Wait, you mean you can get lucky in a bar _without_ getting drunk? 
> That's not very realistic!  :-)

Yes...  Remember, the idea is to get the other person drunk...  
Helps your chances...

Stu

"No one is ugly at last call for alcohol." -Stuart Dollar, 1984

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:12:15 -0500
Subject: SERIOUSLY OFF TOPIC!!!!

A friend shared this with me and I thought you guys would appreciate it. :)

>IF OPERATING SYSTEMS WERE AIRLINES 
>
>DOS Air: Passengers walk out onto the runway, grab hold of the plane,
>push it until it begins to fly & and then hop on.
>Before the plane crashes from technical problems . . .
>the passengers quickly jump on the ground, grab the plane again . . .
>and push it back into the air.
>hop on, jump off . . . 
>
>Mac Airways: The cashiers, flight attendants, and pilots
>all look the same, talk the same, and act the same.
>When you ask them questions about the flight,
>they reply that you don't want to know, don't need to know,
>and would you please return to your seat to watch the movie. 
>
>Windows Airlines: The terminal is neat and clean,
>the attendants are courteous and the pilots capable.
>The fleet of Lear jets that Windows operates is immense.
>Your jet takes off without a hitch,
>pushes above the clouds,
>and at 20,000 feet, explodes without warning. 
>
>Unix Express: Passengers bring a piece of the airplane
>and a box of tools with them to the airport. They gather on the 
>tarmac, arguing about what kind of plane they want to build.
>The passengers split into groups and build several different aircraft,
>but give them all the same name.
>Only some passengers reach their destinations . . .
>but all of them believe that they've arrived.
>


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:36:29 -0700
Subject: Re: Hiver tech fight song notes

Susan M. Shock wrote:
> 
> >
> >> THE HIVER TECHNICAL ACADEMY FIGHT SONG  By David Nelson and Allen Shock
> >
> (annoying poetry mercifully omitted)
> >Thank you, Allen!!!
> >
> >Now, just do _Hivers_ sing the song?  :)
> 
> No, they do the "Macarena" to it. Hivers can't sing. :)

Thought so . . . . That damned 'dance' is _everywhen_!
> 
> I envision this as having been made up by some drunk RCES folks on leave...

Very drunk, Allen. _Very_ drunk!

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:26:13 -0700
Subject: Re: I have seen the Hardback

P. ENGEBOS wrote:
> 
> My Local Game Store got in three copies of the Hardback T4 today.  They
> look really nice.  Anyone know why the hardbacks are going to game stores
> (I've emailed Imperium Games to ask, but I wasn't sure if they would be
> able to reply what with them moving and all)?
> 
> Peter Engebos                           <pengebos@nmsu.edu>
> T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth                 <tsarith@io.com>
>                 http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

My FLGS is getting me one; he told me that that HBs would be available.
 
BTW, the URL is: http://www.cgrapevine.com

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:42:02 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller Drinking Game (was: Re: Bar Table)

John H Bogan Jr wrote:

> 
> Not if they're playing the TRAVELLER DRINKING GAME!
> 
> Character uses an air/raft: one drink
> Aslan challenges character to a duel: one drink
> Character tries to circumvent law-level weaopns' limits: one drink
> Character obeys weapons laws: three drinks
> Character meets a robot: two drinks
> Character meets an alien: one drink
> Character meets an alien who isn't
>   from one of the Major Races: two drinks
> Character goes into a starport bar: one drink
> Character dies during generation: three drinks
> 
> etc. etc. etc.

This makes a good thread for everyone to chime into:

BTW, with TNE and T4, characters don't die during generation. I'd change it to 
"Character gets injured during generation."

Player makes a Monty Python or Star Wars reference during game: one drink
Character starts bar fight: four drinks.

Just my Cr.02 worth

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:22:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Bar names

David A. Nelson wrote:
> 
> In my simi-campain RCES type on Trybec hang out in the god forsake palce in the
>  deseart north of the starport call: "Ponch's Happy Bottom Riding Club".  This
> place has a number of triditions.  The RCES crew who has gone furthest out into
>  the wilds getts a free steak dinner.  Also the picture of every RCES crewmembe
> r who died out in the wilds has his picture on the wall.
>                                      David Nelson
>                                 It's ok were staff

In my RC game, there was a chain of bars, called (name of world/port/town) Joe's. This 
chain was started back in the days of the Imperial Civil War (Barracks Emperor era, 7th 
Century IE) as a franchise, which grew like a wild weed. 

In the New Era, Joe's are the seediest, sleaziest, most low-life taverns this side of 
the Mos Eisley(sp) Cantina(tm), which they resemble in most respects. On some worlds, 
Joe's is the _only_ tavern. It's a place made for rumor-mongering, heavy drinking, and, 
of course, bar fights.

Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 20:15:10 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Dawn and Established History

Moin Sam Draper,

> When was Sternmetal Horizons formed?

	Sternmetal sounds so f*cking german, that it has to dated
	back to the Solomanies.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:06:31 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Oh no a Kiwi!

Moin Hal Carmer,

>   After seeing the phrase above, I had to slap myself to avoid reading
> into the meaning "kiwi" what I originally knew it to be.  I assume "kiwi"
> is a national word, much like Yank, Kraut, Limey, Frog, etc... mean.  

	Kiwi is a national word. Its first the name of Newzeelands
	nativs, and more known a name of the Kiwi fruit.

	BTW did you know that the DDR was sold for 100 DM, a Banana
	and a Kiwi ;-)

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:47:21 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Water in the desert...

Moin Boyd Schneider,

> I don't doubt it, there is just too much going on in that part of the 
> subsector for them to stay down.  But my timeline isn't there yet, in fact, 
> I'm more interested in historical Ianic (since the last Survey) than the next 
> one hundred years.

	the first colume (tech level 5) was second survey data.

> >	The people there are Jonkeerin's, geenereed humans. Jonkeer's
> >	live at Spinwards 2215, 1924, 3123, 0533, 1736, 1836, Deneb
> >	0701, 2717, 1524, and 1433. Main Jonkeer rebellions in 1083
> >	and 1101.
> 
> Duh, what's a Jonkereen?

	To quote GDW :

	" Deneb 1324 Jonkeer : The inhabitants of the world, the
	  Jonkeereen are geneered humans, created by Imperial
	  Ministery of colonialisation of desert environments.

	  Jonkereen are tall, thin and dark skinned, with protective
	  membrans shielding thier eys and ears. More important than
	  these cosmetic differences are sophisticated changes to
	  their metabolism that allow them to survive in the temperatur
	  extremes of the dry desert environment"

	To make it short Jonkeereen survive at atmos >= 3 and hydro + 0.
	Experiments with Jonkeereen on worlds with atmos = 2 died with
	the release of virus.

	I dont know why these worlds (containing Jonkeer) are not declared
	Amber. Imho it was forbidden to trade anything with Tl>5 to a 
	Jonkeereen world.

> >	You mentioned it. They have a company selling water with some
> >	mod-cutters for transporting it down. Unlinke the Imperial
> >	"Mininstery of Colonialisation" who created the Jonkeer's
> >	and tested them in deserts, the Regency "Ministery of the
> >	Interior" concentrates on existing humans.
> Duh, what's "the Regency?"   ;-)

	Never heard about TNE ? The Regency are the surviving "keepers
	of the flame" located in the Marches and Deneb. The Regency
	was proclaimed at 1132.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:15:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: a gallon of water

>David J. Golden said:
>        Ummm ... around here a gallon of water weighs 8 pounds ("a pint's a
>pound the world around"). Unless we're talking different gallons. A gallon
>of water then equals 3.6 liters (1 kilogram of water weighs 2.2 pounds and
>displaces one liter).

You may indeed be talking different gallons. There's the U.S. Customary
Gallon, at 231 cubic inches, and the British Imperial Gallon, at 277.42
cubic inches. Hence the confusion, perhaps.

The Table of Conversion in my Houghton Mifflin says 1 gallon = 4.546
litres. But it doesn't specify which "gallon" it's referring to.

Glenn G.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."



------------------------------

From: Guy Wilson <ccguy@showme.missouri.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:28:03 +0000
Subject: Re: A gallon of water

I believe an Imperial (British) Gallon is slighly larger and heavier,
about 10lbs/gal. 

Guy Wilson

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 
> David J. Golden said:
> 
> >        Ummm ... around here a gallon of water weighs 8 pounds ("a pint's a
> >pound the world around"). Unless we're talking different gallons. A gallon
> >of water then equals 3.6 liters (1 kilogram of water weighs 2.2 pounds and
> >displaces one liter).
> 
> Well, that's what I remembered, but I thought I would try it...  Dang that
> pesky scale!!!                  ;-)
> Thanks for the correction.  Besides my faulty standards, do you have any input
> to my question?  It would be appreciated.
> 
>                                                 ---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:36:48 MST7
Subject: RE: Highly off topic

Eric Yocum (without researching it first...) passed on:

>Your name, social security number, current address, previous addresses, 
>mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal information
>are now available to anyone with a credit card through a new Lexis 
>database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this information 
>could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow someone else 
>to use your identity.

SNIPOLA

Actually, Lexis-Nexis only provides limited information.  This direct 
from the weasel's mouth:

(http://www.lexis-nexis.com/lncc/p-trak/p-trak.html)

"Incorrect information is being distributed on Internet newsgroups
regarding the data displayed in LEXIS-NEXIS' P-TRAK file. P-TRAK is
like an electronic "white pages." The only information displayed is
the name of the individual, current address and up to two previous
addresses and telephone number. In some cases, the individual's maiden
name may appear and as well as the month and year of birth. That is
the ONLY information displayed in the P-TRAK file.

Contrary to some messages that have been posted to some Internet
discussion and news groups, the P-TRAK file does not contain any
credit histories, bank account information, personal financial data,
mother's maiden name or medical histories. This misinformation has
been posted over and over again to various news groups. An example of
a record appears below:

Name:  DOE, JOHN  E
Current Address:  1066 Anywhere Drive, Dayton, OH   95454
Previous Addresses:  106 Somewhere Drive
                        Dayton, OH 92454
Birthdate:  9/1965
Telephone number:  555-1212
On file since:  6/1/1994"

	They go on to mealy-mouth about only 'highly professional users' 
like lawyers, cops, pi's and skiptracers get to see this data.

	Without going into a flamewar over that one,  You would have to 
wonder at the original post.  People are willing to believe that a 
company would open itself up by providing ALL the information needed 
to commit credit fraud to anyone dialing in.  I don't know about you 
or me, but Mastercard, Visa and American Express have lawyers that 
would hop on that like nobodies business; it opens them up to 
billions in lost revenue and losses.

	It's fun watching how fast Urban Legends get spread these days...

	Still, I'm getting my name taken off of it...


Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 17:19:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#427] Traveller as Religion?

T::>At one point some smart aleck on this list made a reference comparing the
 ::>three (at the time) versions of Traveller to the three Biblical religious
 ::>groups;

T::>CT= Old Testament
 ::>MT= New Testament
 ::>TNE = The Koran

T::>So;

T::>CT Players = Jews
 ::>MT Players = Christians
 ::>TNE Players = Moslem

T::>Does that make all of us T4 Players "Jews for Jesus"?

 No, No, No!  J4J would be playing MT and trying to convince us
 that it's really CT!  Since T4 partakes of elements of all of
 the above, but feels most like CT, I'd say that T4 players
 would have to be Jewish Unitarians.    :)

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Where I come from, size shape or color makes no differenc


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #435
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Traveller-digest        Thursday, 19 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 436

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: other places...
         2. Re: HTML
         3. Re: Dawn and Established History
         4. Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
         5. Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #427
         7. RE: CANON should be a 4 letter word
         8. RE: CANON should be a 4 letter word
         9. Re: Water in the desert...
        10. Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
        11. RE: More T4 newbie questions, somebody please answer!
        12. Re: HTML
        13. Re: HTML
        14. Re: Kiwi
        15. Re: little hairy fruit
        16. Re: sprinting sumo wrestler
        17. Re: Highly off topic.  Credit Card Databases for sale.
        18. Assorted
        19. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #433
        20. Re: CD-ROM Burning
        21. a book for gear-heads
        22. Re: HTML
        23. Re: HTML

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 20:08:11 UT
Subject: RE: other places...

Stuart L. Dollar said:

>I've used the libraries, a meeting at a local grav ball tournament, 
>meetings in parks, any number of places.  Let's face it the starport 
>bar, local tavern, etc where you meet PC's is the single BIGGEST 
>cliche in RPG's...  
>
>Stu

That's what I meant by calling them "the lowest common denominator" in RPGs.  
(Almost) EVERYONE tries to meet NPCs in drinking establishments.  

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: Guy Wilson <ccguy@showme.missouri.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:48:53 +0000
Subject: Re: HTML

There are a lot of very good online works. We maintain a list of them at
http://www.missouri.edu/~muwww/authors/. As a reference, check out both
the Bare Bones Guide to HTML and the Sandia materials - both linked from
said URL. 

Guy Wilson
MU Campus Computing

Lewis Roberts wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> I was wondering if any of you know of a good book on HTML.
> I was looking for a book, that has value as a reference guide after
> I've read it once.  Also one that doesn't treat me as an idiot and
> wastes two chapters explaining what the Web is.
> Or is there an online reference that does the same.
> 
> I have written several web pages, but they were done by cutting and
> pasting from existing web pages.
> THanks for any suggestions.
> Lewis Roberts

------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:56:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Dawn and Established History

On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Michael Koehne wrote:

> Moin Sam Draper,
> 
> > When was Sternmetal Horizons formed?
> 
> 	Sternmetal sounds so f*cking german, that it has to dated
> 	back to the Solomanies.
> 
> By Michael

Much as I hate to say this, but it almost sounds like you have a brother
named Chekov who constantly stated that <insert item here> was invented in
Russia, or that <insert quote here> was coined in Russia, or that <insert
famous inventor> was born in Russia.  Of course, this could be something
that happens in Scotland as well, for was it not the famous Engineer
Scotty who once said "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on
me"?   <grin>

Hal


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 22:12:55 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

Moin Matthew Mactyre,

> Hmm... Should us DOS/Windows/Windows 95 people speak up to defend ourselves?

	I dont have a Mac, but I know the WingDogs delemma. I'm a
	programer of a german book importer, and as its imposible
	to handle such a complex area with dogs, we are using a
	SunOS/Linux network. Unfortunately most CD-ROM blibliographies 
	come with a ms-dogs program for accessing the data.

	I would realy like if a traveller suite will be portable,
	e.g. implemented in HTML/Java, Tcl/Tk or Phyton. These 3
	languages are slow but they provide cross platform
	development.

	I would realy dislike if this Traveller Suite will be MS-Only.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:15:52 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

I have a mac.  A few, actually.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: rogersm@tau.uab.es (Roger Sen Montero)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 00:12:23
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #427

In <9609181548.AA15180@NS.MPGN.COM>, on 09/18/96 
   at 11:48 AM, athol-brose said:

>> *set geek_mode = true
>> In a previous TML digest, someone made reference to the character "Iago
>> [sic] Montoya" from the movie "The Princess Bride".  The character's name
>> is "Inago", not "Iago".  
>[...]
>> *set geek_mode = false

><GEEK CLASS="FURTHER">

>The name is properly spelt "Inigo".

></GEEK>

 [Spanish mode on]

 The name is "Iqigo". With the cute tilde over the n. But you'll probably 
see a strange character instead of the q.

 Try it with your browser:

 I&ntilde;igo

 [Spanish mode off]


- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
rogersm@tau.uab.es (Roger Sen Montero)
- -----------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 22:52:06 UT
Subject: RE: CANON should be a 4 letter word

Will Richards said:

>Once I came up with a neat idea on the list only to have a canon toting
>individual shoot me down by quoting chapter and verse explaining that it >was
>not "CANON". It was very irritating, and trivial.

Same here.  This is nothing other than good old fashioned DOGMATISM rearing 
its ugly head.  Dogmatism (whether religious, political, cultural, etc.) tends 
to foster cynicism, eliminate proactivity,  stifle creativity, silence the 
voices of less bold individuals, and spoil things.  Let's not sink to that 
level.

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:23:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: CANON should be a 4 letter word

Fortunatly its a minority (albeit vocal at times) on this list who insist
on dogmatic, even judgemental, adhearance to a canon that doesn't really
exist. Most of us, and all of the more productive list members, see it for
what it is, a framework that facilitates our conversation here.

The next time I get my hands on a canon toting player in one of my games
(I am fortunate to have some high calibre players right now so its not an
issue) I am going to rename Strephon to Strephina and make jump torps
standard issue on all craft, completely replacing the X-Boat network };>


_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:48:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Water in the desert...

On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, David J. Golden wrote:
> At 10:28 am 9/18/96 UT, you wrote:
> >Here is what I've got so far:
> >
> >1 gallon of water = 3.8 liters
> >1 gallon of water = 9 pounds = 4.05 kilograms
> 
>         Ummm ... around here a gallon of water weighs 8 pounds ("a pint's a
> pound the world around"). Unless we're talking different gallons. A gallon
> of water then equals 3.6 liters (1 kilogram of water weighs 2.2 pounds and
> displaces one liter).

  8 lbs is an approximation.

1 US gallon = 3.8l 
1 CDN gallon = 4.55l

1 US gallon = 3.8x2.2 = 8.36 lbs 
1 CDN gallon = 4.55x2.2 = 10 lbs

  I used to think a US gallon was 4 liters, but the back of one of my
  texts in college had the actual values.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 20 Sep 1996 00:45:50 GMT
Subject: Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

Well, I'm an amateur programmer now (love not money), and I'm certain my
standard isn't up to Jo's, but I've been trying to do my bit.  Don't tell me
that Metator and my other apps disappeared - that's be a totaly different
system.

I know that Metator is just at alpha release, but check out

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/Traveller/software.html

------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:05:06 -0700
Subject: RE: More T4 newbie questions, somebody please answer!

Matt M. replied to Matt L.

> When mustering out, do all terms served count, or only those served in =
the=20
> current career?

Definitely all full terms.  You may wish distribute mustering rolls
among the tables of the services according to the number of terms served
in each service.

I prefer to muster 'em out at the career change. That way attribute =
modifiers are in place, and especially the player can have all the =
details as they work-up their autobiographical narrative. [TAS, Starship =
Ownership, etc.]

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:21:10 -0700
Subject: Re: HTML

On Thu, 19 Sep 96, lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts) said:

>Hi,
>I was wondering if any of you know of a good book on HTML.
>I was looking for a book, that has value as a reference guide after
>I've read it once.  Also one that doesn't treat me as an idiot and
>wastes two chapters explaining what the Web is.  
>Or is there an online reference that does the same. 

Well, might I recommend  "Creating Web Pages for Dummies" and "HTML for
Dummies"?  These are the best gut-level resources.. and "WPfD" comes with a
CD chock-full of nifty tools.

(Even for you heathen Macolytes)

>From IDG Books, natch, publishers of "Feudal Technocracy for Dummies"





+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 18:54:06 -0600
Subject: Re: HTML

At 02:40 pm 9/19/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi,
>I was wondering if any of you know of a good book on HTML.
>I was looking for a book, that has value as a reference guide after
>I've read it once.  Also one that doesn't treat me as an idiot and
>wastes two chapters explaining what the Web is.  
>Or is there an online reference that does the same.  

Creating Net Sites
        http://www.netscape.com/assist/net_sites/index.html

Composing Good HTML
        http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tilt/cgh/

Sandia Labs (a reference work, not a tutorial)
        http://www.sandia.gov/sci_compute/html_ref.html
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:29:16 +1300
Subject: Re: Kiwi

> >
> >Hey I just discovered that I am the only New Zealander registered to
> >this mailing list. Just thought I would share that.
> 
> Oh no, just what the TML needs, a Kiwi!!!!  :)
> 
> Well, I guess if you promise not to talk about Crickett or some other fool
> thing like that, I guess we will let you stay. :)
> 
> Seriously though, good to have you here.
>  

Thanks Paul. Pleasure to be able to join you. I feel I've been blind and 
can finally see. You may find some of my thoughts on Traveller reflect 
the games development in relative isolation.

I notice there are a few Australians on the list so I won't mention 
Cricket.



------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:43:45 +1300
Subject: Re: little hairy fruit

> In the orbital shipyards of StoneHaven I had a Night Club known as
> "Hanger 15."  This was in TNE and there was an overhead travel lift that
> was infected with Virus.  Someone had hooked up strobes and flashing
> lights the the lift and the whole thing moved back and forth flashing
> lights and such.
> 
> Derek Stanley
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 01:02:54 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: Oh no a Kiwi!
> 
> Hello Travellers,
>   After seeing the phrase above, I had to slap myself to avoid reading
> into the meaning "kiwi" what I originally knew it to be.  I assume "kiwi"
> is a national word, much like Yank, Kraut, Limey, Frog, etc... mean.
> 
>   What I know "kiwi" to mean is that of the phrase "kiwi enema".  A phrase
> that meant getting a boot polished with a brand of boot polish strangely
> enough called "kiwi", shoved up one's rear...
> 
> Hal
> 

Kiwi is a common term used for the people of New Zealand of all races 
and place of origin since New Zealand is basically a nation of 
immigrants. The term comes from a native bird called a Kiwi by the NZ 
Maori people. An image of the Kiwi appears on the Australian boot polish 
called Kiwi boot polish that appeared before WW1 (I think). I also 
understand the New Zealand Kiwifruit Marketing Board chose the name 
Kiwifruit for what is traditionally known in NZ as a Chinese Goosberry 
in order to market the fruit in places like the United States. Most 
Americans probably think of a little hairy fruit when they hear the word 
Kiwi. 
Strangely enough in the Vlaahurg tongue the word Kiwi is the most 
vicious of insults imaginable and has been the cause of more horrible 
and bloody interstellar wars than anything else in the history of 
creation.


------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:06:54 +1300
Subject: Re: sprinting sumo wrestler

> 
> >Now you have hit on one of the big failings of Traveller as a
> >role-playing game - what, no experience points?
> 
> Not necesarily.  I liked that when I started playing, because experience
> points tend to limit many players to just those actions that are rewarded.
> My CT solution was to give players skill rolls at the same rate as in
> character generation, with the table chosen being based on their activities
> during the last four years.

That sounds like a fine idea. Take your point about experience 
generating activities attracting players attention more than others.
> 
> > live fast, die wide!
> 
> So what you want is a sprinting sumo wrestler?  :-)
> muy classy. I like that post.

> 
> >Of course, the Imperium has to be able to find 'em first.
> 
> I required my players to keep the Scout Service apprised of their location.
> If they didn't, well, the Navy got involved.  No 'hue and cry', just a lot of
> blokes looking out for them.  Sooner or later they would be caught.
> 
> Same applied for banks, except they employed a system of rewards for
> skip-tracers.  (Was a JTAS article about this years ago.)  Again, sooner or
> later it would be time to pay the piper.  Sometimes years later.
> 

Of course, that makes for a lot of ongoing material for a referee to 
work with when it comes to those players. They will always be watching 
their backs. 
My players are like the people of Cloud City, "..they have no love for 
the Empire, I can tell you that."  Me, on the other hand, I love the 
Imperium (I used to always play the German in the Colditz boardgame 
too).



------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 20:26:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Highly off topic.  Credit Card Databases for sale.

>From: Erik Yocum <ecy@umich.edu>
>Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:23:57 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Highly off topic.  Credit Card Databases for sale.
>
>Sorry about this, but I thought people would want to know.
>
>I already called them, and they're taking only faxed or written requests
>to have information removed.
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>==========================================================================
>
>Your name, social security number, current address, previous addresses,
>mother's maiden name, birth date and other personal information
>are now available to anyone with a credit card through a new Lexis
>database called P-Trax. As I am sure you are aware, this information
>could be used to commit credit card fraud or otherwise allow someone else
>to use your identity.

I heard on the radio today that this is a hoax (it seemed to be one to me
when I first ran across this).  According to the report that I heard Lexis
never contained much of the information listed.  Apparently at one time it
_did_ have the Soc Sec Number but it has since been removed.

Chuck

___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/




------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 23:58:00 GMT 
Subject: Assorted

Peter Engebos

> Of course, I maintain that the basic system was not designed by
> EGG.   It is too well thought out and totally without character
> stereotyping replacing characterization.  There is a very workable Skill
> system and the rules are minimal (Yes, I am only talking about Basic
> Mythus here).  Totally and completely the opposite of the thought
> processes that Gygax has shown over the years.

Gary Gygax himself designed the system. I was there (for part of it,
anyway) The horror rules came first, actually. It was the other
partners in the deal that wanted the fantasy stuff published first.

- ------------------------------
Glenn Grant

> Windows Paint? What the heck is that?

Its something like polka-dot paint...or striped toothpaste. : )

(I forget who said this):

>Now you have hit on one of the big failings of Traveller as a
>role-playing game - what, no experience points?

An early reviewer of Traveller said that in Traveller, you gained
experience not in points, but in knowledge of the universe...he found
it a very attractie concept.

         Loren Wiseman


------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 20:30:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #433

>From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net>
>Subject: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
>
>OK folks, it looks like we're in danger of missing out on this Traveller
>suite.  Therefore, all Mac users on this list _please_ make yourselves
>known, along with the number of non-list Mac users you know.  If we can
>get enough out there, we may be able to convince Jo to get it coded for
>us!
>
>Alternately, is there a Mac coding god out there who would be willing to
>convert it?  I'm a CodeWarrior newbie myself.
>
>By the way, I can speak for six myself, and know that both Glenn Grant
>and Charles Collin and Darroch Elliott (and who knows who else, I'm just
>pointing fingers here) should also have something to say on the matter.
>
>Ross Coburn
>for Prometheus Design
>ross@odyssee.net
>
>------------------------------

Whell,  I would _not_ consider myself a coding god, however I might be able
to fairly easily convert some of the data.  I run a 8500/150 with a 12" PC
card, scanner, Rom-Burner, etc...  I also know a couple of people who are
not on this list who would be interested in a Macintosh version of this...

Chuck

___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/




------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 20:43:39 -0500
Subject: Re: CD-ROM Burning

>From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
>Date: 19 Sep 1996 16:10:58 GMT
>Subject: CD-ROM Burning
>
>>In the interest of ease of porting, I suggest HTML format - browsers exist
>>for all platforms, and the CD could be burned in 9660 format (readable on
>>Mac/Unix/Windows) for minimal hassle.
>
rp>I have a student who can do this (and is looking for a client for his coop
rp>project).  Of course, there's a _lot_ of copyright issues that would need
rp>dealing with first.

cm> From a message I just posted...
cm>
cm> Whell, I would _not_ consider myself a coding god, however I might
cm> be able to fairly easily convert some of the data. I run a 8500/150
cm> with a 12" PC card, scanner, Rom-Burner,  etc...  I also know a
cm> couple of people who are not on this list who would be interested
cm> in a Macintosh version of this...

Yah,  There _are_ a _lot_ of copyright issues that would have to be settled
before any Rom's are burned.  I didn't mean to make it sound like I didn't
respect copyright, 'cuz I do...

Chuck

___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/




------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:43:50 -0400
Subject: a book for gear-heads

A few weeks back, I picked up a book that will tickle the fancy of
Traveller gear-heads.  It's called "The Millennial Project:  Colonizing the
Galaxy in Eight Easy Step", by Marshall T. Savage.

The Introduction is by Arthur C. Clarke.  A quote from the introduction on
the cover reads, "I am completely awed, and I don't awe easy, by the
author's command of a dozen engineering disciplines..."

The project includes mass drivers built inside mountains for space launch
(assisted by laser boost), and floating cites to provide power and capital.
 I just read a good description of a tailored vacc suit.

It has an extensive bibliography and footnotes.

So far it looks a like a good reference for those who like science in there
SF games.


- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
               http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
Been there.  Done that.  Bought the t-shirt. Wore it home.  Wore it out.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: galliand@juno.com (Scott M Galliand)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 22:03:51 EDT
Subject: Re: HTML

I would recommend the HTML book put out by O'Reilly and Associates.   For
$27.95, you can't beat it.  When they had the excellent chapter on frames
displayed on their web site, I was able to quickly learn 'em with ease. 

In fact, I'd recommend any of the O'Reilly books.  You can see their web
site at http://www.ora.com/

Scott Galliand

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 02:29:05 GMT
Subject: Re: HTML

On Thu, 19 Sep 96 14:40:05 -0400, Lewis Roberts wrote:

> I was wondering if any of you know of a good book on HTML.
> I was looking for a book, that has value as a reference guide after
> I've read it once.  Also one that doesn't treat me as an idiot and
> wastes two chapters explaining what the Web is.  

Try "Teach Yourself Web Publishing With HTML 3.2 In 14 Days" by Laura Lemay
from sams.net publishing (www.mcp.com/samsnet/books/tyhtml).  Yes, it does
include *one* chapter on describing the WWW, but most HTML books do.  It
also covers setting up a server, frames, CGI, Java, Javascript, plug-ins,
ActiveX, etc.  It's also really BIG and useful and useful in self defense
:-)

You can try using some advanced books but if your only experience with HTML
is cutting and pasting from other pages, they might be too advanced (?).

> Or is there an online reference that does the same.  

Try "HTML Reference Library" at http://subnet.virtual-pc.com/~le387818/.
It's not really an "on-line" reference... more of a Help file for Win '95.

> I have written several web pages, but they were done by cutting and
> pasting from existing web pages.

See above.





------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #436
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Traveller-digest         Friday, 20 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 437

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Assorted
         2. Re: SERIOUSLY OFF TOPIC!!!!
         3. Gravity
         4. More Assorted
         5. Re: Re: Oh no a Kiwi!
         6. Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
         7. Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
         8. Re: Traveller for Macs, Windows, OS/2, Unix & other!
         9. Re: A gallon of water
        10. The little hairy fruit, bird & shoe polish
        11. Birth of a Colony...
        12. Re:  Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
        13. Re: RPG training
        14. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #422
        15. Re: Traveller Filks
        16. Re: A few house rules
        17. Re: More T4 newbie questions, somebody please answer!
        18. Re: [Noise] *Inago* Montoya, not "Iago"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:28:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Assorted

On Thu, 19 Sep 1996 gdw.support@genie.com wrote:

> >Now you have hit on one of the big failings of Traveller as a
> >role-playing game - what, no experience points?
> 
> An early reviewer of Traveller said that in Traveller, you gained
> experience not in points, but in knowledge of the universe...he found
> it a very attractie concept.

As do I, Loren, as do I.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 02:29:03 GMT
Subject: Re: SERIOUSLY OFF TOPIC!!!!

Oh yeah?  Take this...

       WHAT DRIVING TO THE STORE WOULD BE LIKE
          IF OPERATING SYSTEMS RAN YOUR CAR
     -------------------------------------------

MS-DOS:  You get in the car and try to remember where
you put your keys.

Windows:  You get in the car and drive to the store
very slowly, because attached to the back of the car
is a freight train.

Macintosh System 7:  You get in the car to go to the
store, and the car drives you to church.

UNIX:  You get in the car and type GREP STORE.  After
reaching speeds of 200 miles per hour en route, you
arrive at the barber shop.

Windows NT:  You get in the car and write a letter
that says, "go to the store."  Then you get out of
the car and mail the letter to your dashboard.

Taligent/Pink:  You walk to the store with Ricardo
Montalban, who tells you how wonderful it will be
when he can fly you to the store in his Learjet.

OS/2:  After fueling up with 6000 gallons of gas,
you get in the car and drive to the store with a
motorcycle escort and a marching band in procession.
Halfway there, the car blows up, killing everybody
in town.

S/36 SSP [mainframe, obv.]:  You get in the car and
drive to the store. Halfway there you run out of gas.
While walking the rest of the way, you are run over
by kids on mopeds.

OS/400:  An attendant locks you into the car and
then drives you to the store, where you get to watch
everybody else buy filet mignons.

------------------------------

From: Ronald Urwiller <urwilron@ptw.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:47:45 -0700
Subject: Gravity

Gravity and Anti-Grav seem to come up frequently on this list (I don't mind,
its good reading).  To send a few more monkey wrenches into the gears I
wanted to bring your attention to another theory.  A guy named Stephen
Goodfellow wrote an interesting paper about the effects of
plasma/magneticfields on gravity.
(www.oceonline.com/~sgoodf/nature/cgbi/index.html#4r)

To put it succinctly he shows that A great amount of gravity can be created
without the corresponig amount of mass.  Using his theory (probably better
if you read it) many possibilities pop up for G drives or even deep space
stations.  Also for those interested in T-plates this theory could help
explain how they function (I think). FYI.
More later.

Brad Urwiller
urwilron@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 01:36:00 GMT 
Subject: More Assorted

Michael Koehne:

>> When was Sternmetal Horizons formed?
>
>	Sternmetal sounds so f*cking german, that it has to dated
>	back to the Solomanies.

Sternmetal Horizons sounds German?

GSbAG stands for Geschichtkreis Sternshiffbau AG (German speakers
forgive my spelling). Anyone notice a resemblence?

    LKW


------------------------------

From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:12:09 +1200
Subject: Re: Re: Oh no a Kiwi!

>From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
>Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:24:06 +1300
>Subject: Traveller-digest mailing list
>
>Hey I just discovered that I am the only New Zealander registered to
>this mailing list. Just thought I would share that.

I don't think so Simon... But there aint that many of us.


>From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
>Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:06:31 +0000 ()
>Subject: Re: Oh no a Kiwi!
>
>Moin Hal Carmer,
>
>>   After seeing the phrase above, I had to slap myself to avoid reading
>> into the meaning "kiwi" what I originally knew it to be.  I assume "kiwi"
>> is a national word, much like Yank, Kraut, Limey, Frog, etc... mean.
>
>        Kiwi is a national word. Its first the name of Newzeelands
>        nativs, and more known a name of the Kiwi fruit.

That is true. We here in "God's Own" do tend to refer to ourselves as
Kiwi's (after our small flightless native bird). Our small country here in
the South West Pacific gained some fame by our NO NUCLEAR stand toward the
Americans and French and for our ALL BLACK Rugby team (the best in the
world!!!)

BTW, New Zealand is the country, the Maori discovered the land before the
Eurpoeans (but tend not to refer to them as natives), and we generally
allow any NZ citizen to call themselves a Kiwi.

Well, this is off topic for the TML, but hey, it's my moment to shine
before retiring and resume lurking....



------------------------------

From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:33:59 +1200
Subject: Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

Hi there. I'm a Mac user (have ben for 4 years) and am proud to say I'll
support any movement you may start to oust the dominance of the PC's. After
all, was'nt it a Mac that saved the world in ID4! I saw no mentions of PC's
in the film at all :-)

>From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net>
>Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 09:04:21 -0500
>Subject: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
>
>OK folks, it looks like we're in danger of missing out on this Traveller
>suite.  Therefore, all Mac users on this list _please_ make yourselves
>known, along with the number of non-list Mac users you know.  If we can
>get enough out there, we may be able to convince Jo to get it coded for
>us!

>Alternately, is there a Mac coding god out there who would be willing to
>convert it?  I'm a CodeWarrior newbie myself.
(I wish.....)

>By the way, I can speak for six myself, and know that both Glenn Grant
>and Charles Collin and Darroch Elliott (and who knows who else, I'm just
>pointing fingers here) should also have something to say on the matter.

I know of a few more (non-list members, but we can't hold that against
them) that I could point fingers at if it would help.


Thanks in advance,


 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Blair Lynch-Blosse, BSc (MSc student)         lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz
  Earth Sciences Department
  University of Waikato
  Private Bag 3105
  Hamilton                                            175.19'E 37.47'S
  NEW ZEALAND                "Trust No One. Deny Everything" - X-Files
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:27:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

Gee, why not "Travellers with ANY computer unite" and write this stuff in
java? I don't mind macs at all, but I'm not going to go buy one just to
run traveller software. We have enough crusading here with Relativistic
Rock Lovers vs. Users of the Jump Torpedo, must we drag OS preferences and
the attendant meaningless wars with them?

Just a thought,

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 22:33:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller for Macs, Windows, OS/2, Unix & other!

On 09/19/96 at 11:26 AM,  Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net> said:

>At 09:04 AM 9/19/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>OK folks, it looks like we're in danger of missing out on this Traveller 
>>suite.  Therefore, all Mac users on this list _please_ make yourselves 
>>known,

>Hmm... Should us DOS/Windows/Windows 95 people speak up to defend
>ourselves? <grin>

And I'm speaking up for the OS/2 people.  <g> We can read all your DOS/Win
stuff already so we don't say much.  I'm in favor of
something generic that we all can use.  Let's not leave any of us out.

HTML and the Acrobat formata are available across most platforms out here. 
Acrobat has a number of advantages, but the readers are large and the price
of the software to create the documents is kind of high.  HTML isn't as
flexible and the browsers we'd use to read it aren't all that hot yet, but
it's essentually free both to create and to read.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 23:00:12 -0500
Subject: Re: A gallon of water

On 09/19/96 at 03:28 PM,  Guy Wilson <ccguy@showme.missouri.edu> said:

>I believe an Imperial (British) Gallon is slighly larger and heavier,
>about 10lbs/gal. 

Ok, let's clear this up!
- -- 

2 gills  =  1 pint   =  28.875 c"  =  0.4732 liters
2 pints  =  1 quart  =  57.75  c"  =  0.9463 liters
4 quarts =  1 gallon = 231.0   c"  =  3.7853 liters

1 British Imperial gallon = 277.42 c" = 4.546 liters

1 liter of water = 1 kilogram = 2.2046 pounds

So...1 gallon of water weighs 8.35 lb, and 1 Imperial gallon of
water weighs 10.02 lb.

Everybody happy? <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 23:31:04 -0500
Subject: The little hairy fruit, bird & shoe polish

On 09/20/96 at 12:43 PM,  Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz> said:

>Kiwi is a common term used for the people of New Zealand of all races  and
>place of origin since New Zealand is basically a nation of  immigrants.
>The term comes from a native bird called a Kiwi by the NZ  Maori people.
>An image of the Kiwi appears on the Australian boot polish  called Kiwi
>boot polish that appeared before WW1 (I think). 

Before WWI?  I'm not that old!  <g> I polished my good shoes with Kiwi
brand shoe polish every Sunday morning while I was growing up.

Wait...yep, here's an old Kiwi can with the picture of the hairy little
bird.  <G> Kiwi Brown, made by The Kiwi Polish Company, USA, Pottstown, PA!

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 01:09:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Birth of a Colony...

Hello Folks,
  I just finished setting up the basic parameters for my gaming group to
build a viable colony.  I have been using the WORLD TAMERS HANDBOOK and
came across and interesting anomalty...

  The PC's were granted the use of 750 million Credits towards their
colony purchases.  The world they are coming from is a Tech 13 world.
They have access to a Colonizer class transport carrying 24,200 or so low
berth passengers, along with quite a bit of tonnage for the cargo hold
(ship has yet to be built - if not possible, then two or more will be
built).  Each "colonist" was granted 3,000 credits towards the equipment
needed for the colony. 
  What the PC's intend to do is set up equipment that is roughly tech 10
and build up the economy with the Tech 10 stuff.  This will only employ a
specific percentage of population (a small one to be sure).  The remainder
will be sent to the outback and colonize at tech level 3 (since this tech
needs little or no capital to set up).  Essentially, this planet will be a
tech level 10/3 world.  If one assumes that 80% of the pop is at tech 3,
while the other 20% is at tech 10, how would you go about handling it in
the trade classification?  How would you handle the trader that shows up
in port with Tech level 3 equipment and stuff?  After all, 80% of the
colony wants what it can get it's hands on.  On the other hand, if this
colony devotes it's entire tech 10 output towards exports, how would the
recieving world handle the trade classification?  More importantly, it
might be possible to have a tech classification that is considered to be
"colonial" which takes anything at par, regardless of the tech level of
the manufacturing planet.  Myself, I intend to handle it as a split level
and trade as would be done were "I" really there on the colony.  This
means that all cargos from tech 3+ will be dealt with on the colony as if
it were a population rating of 4.  Tech level 10+ stuff will be treated as
a population 3 world (5,000 people at tech 10, with 20,000 at tech 3).
Ultimately, the colony advisors (PC's) will bring the world up to tech
level 10 standards...

Any comments?  Just wondered if this would be considered a waste of
bandwidth, or if people are interested in the contrast that a colony world
presents.  Imagine: a world were the city folk use contra-grav vehicles
and modern science while in the outback, people are using animal
transportation as well as animal farm equipment (ie plow animals, cart
animals, etc).  A man could ride up a ceramic paved road with a horse
wearing rubber horseshoes.  Piles of horse manure dot the roads as high
velocity grav vehicles race overhead.  Classrooms away from the city tune
into the broadcast lectures presented by the teachers in the city courtesy
of the satelites overhead.  As time goes on, rancher kids head into the
city to get better paying jobs at the factories, or to learn how to use
the high tech food production equipment, and maybe buy some for the home
ranch.
  In the meantime, this planet still has problems with discovering new and
dangerous things.  As time goes on, people begin to see "new" and
"dangerous" as being synonomous with each other...

Damn I like the picture this presents!  It's almost Heinleinish!!!

Come to think of it, "Methusalah's Children" could be those who have been
genetically "genered" to naturally producing the effect of Anagathics and
Lazurus Long (a character from Heinlein's TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE,
METHUSALAH'S CHILDREN, THE CAT WHO COULD WALK THROUGH WALLS, and so on)
could really exist!

Hot diggity!

Hal



------------------------------

From: spritch@cinternet.net (Steven Pritchard)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 01:25:15 -0400
Subject: Re:  Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

Ok...I'm a diehard Traveller player/ref from way back in '78, and I'm a Mac
User.  THERE'D BETTER BE A MAC RELEASE FOR THE TRAVELLER SUITE!!!

If there can be an Amiga re-release of MegaTraveller2, I think somebody
could work on coding a version of the suite for us.

spritch@cinternet.net
http://www.cinternet.net/~mpritch



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:43:26 PST
Subject: Re: RPG training

In mail you write:

>>I my games at school, I insist on the kids play-acting critical scenes. 
>>Seeing as I am already making a fool of myself doing sily voices, they don't
>>seem to mind.  We've even done combat this way ("stand up and show me what
>>your character is doing") when things get confusing.  Lotsa fun!
>
>   Tons-o-fun doing this with my group!  We got a couple of kenpoists, a SCA
> heavy list fighter, two sabre fencers, multiple mil-history buffs, and
> military brats with reasonable firearm experince.
>
>   Sometimes the ref has to tone things down a bit. :-) "Yes, I know that
> *you* know that, but let me see that character sheet...Your character has
> no brawling skill.  Please stand still while the other fellow pummels you."
>
>   Another time was figuring out how much cover you get from a prone body.
> "Ok Charles, go over there about 20 meters and lie down.  Jim, go just past
> him and lie down prone next to him.  See!  The guy in back would get
> partial cover!"

Living in an SCA household made D&D GMing *much* easier. When some
clueless player said "we're marching down the 10 foot corridor 5
abreast" I was able to grab him and some others, stick them in the 10
foot wide archway between the living room and dining room, then hand
them each a sword and shield. Then I asked them to *try* to swing the
swords (rattan tourney swords, I didn't want any dead players).

After bashing each other for a while they got the point. 

Ditto for the idiot who wanted to haul a 15 foot pole arm around in the
dungeon. 

BTW, as for the difference between what a player knows and what a
character knows, while it can be fun, I advise *against* running a game
where the characters are "themselves". There are lots of ways to set it
up, but the usual result is that the ref finds out his players are
experts at the *strangest* things, and often can use this against him.


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:30:07 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #422

In mail you write:

> 1) Arrive on Lanth.
>      a) acquire a contraband weapon
>
> 2) Find a member of the local underworld.  Propose to pay him 50% in 
> advance to do the following:
<snip>
> 3) Once go-between has reported that the kidnapping has been 
> accomplished, whack him and drop him off a pier
<snip>
> 4) Knowing the location of the hideout, have my character, during 
> period before the ransom demand is delivered, spot one of the 
> kidnappers.
>      a) Mug said kidnapper (coincidentally having a crewmember along 
>          as muscle) and extract the information from him. In order to 
>          alleviate risk of having him spill the beans, make sure the
>          fellow crew-member is the paranoid junkie pilot, who'd go
>          along with it in a flash. Once interrogation is finished,
>	   drop the body off a pier.
<snip>
> 5) Execute rescue mission, going in loaded for bear; whack all 
> members of the gang.  Use the contraband firearm (see 1) a), supra) 
> to whack bodyguards during the raid.  Plant the weapon on one of the 
> dead gang members
<snip>
>      The fun thing is that this could possibly be accomplished 
> without any other crewmembers being involved.  If successful, the 
> PC's would look like heroes, probably get raises, and have the coast 
> cleared somewhat if they eventually decide to hoist the black flag 
> and start slitting throats :).

Be glad you don't game with me. Underworld folks are *not* stupid. They
*will* have someone who knows about the deal, but who won't be around
for you to whack. 

Assuming that they don't get suspicious when the go-between gets it in
3, or when another guy gets it in 4, they'll know for *certain* after
5. This means that you'll be on a better dead list, and depending on
their connections, it may be a very widespread list.

And if you turn pirate, that means you'll *have* to deal with the Guild
or whatever sort of organization(s) are behind the scenes in
interstellar crime. And if they've heard about this little incident,
your trust rating will be negative. Which makes for a *real* short
career.

I spent about six months living with an ex-con as a roomie. Pros don't
*like* people who are unpredictable, it makes them nervous. They
*really* dislike folks who pull the sort of double-cross you describe
above. 

Whacking the bodyguards? No problem. Killing the folks you made the
deal with. *Big* problem.

ps. while the ex-con hadn't been convicted of anything violent, he had
lots of stories about folks who had been. I've found his stories
*quite* useful when dealing with "criminals" as a player and as a ref.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:01:18 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller Filks

In mail you write:

> Co Dominium Line Marines from "West of Honor"

The tune for that one is interesting.

> Jaques Cretien from the Dorsai Books

I've got it on an (out of print) tape titled "Songs of the Dorsai".
They did a damn good job as they start out with a single voice with
more and more joining in, just like in that "incident" on St. Marie.
It'll run chills up and down your spine!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:06:02 PST
Subject: Re: A few house rules

In mail you write:

> In testing out T4, I've come up with a few house rules to cover apparent
> gaps. These may be covered in MT or TNE, but I never read either of those.
>
> According to T4, page 58: Under normal gravity, a character can leap up, or
> standing broad jump, a distance of: (Strength+Athletics) x 10cm. (Actually
> the authors don't include brackets, which makes this a bit unclear, but I
> assume this is the correct formula). Also, under 1G, a character can do a
> running broad jump of (Str + Ath) x 0.5 meters. 
>
> The text claims that jumping in variant gravities is "defined in Chapter
> 11: World Generation" - which is actually Chapter 12, where in fact it
> isn't covered. So here's my stab at it:
>
> House Rule:
> Leaping/Jumping in Variant Gravities:
> Simply divide the normal distance by the G rating of the planet.

Probably won't work right. There have been debates about this sort of
thing for over 50 years, and we won't *know* until we get a large
enough "shirt sleeve" environment on the moon.

> Example: a PC with Str. of 9 and Athletics-1 can leap up, or standing-jump,
> a distance of 1m under 1G, or 2m under 0.5G, 10m under 0.1G, 100m under
> 0.01G(!),  only 50cm under 2G, and so on. Technically, one could jump
> farther under some circumstances, but this would require a task roll,
> usually involving Combat Environment skill or similar. Under 3G, jumping
> any distance over a 30cm becomes an Athletics test.

A standing *high* jump is the one jump everybody agrees on. And what
they agree is that the distance you raise the *center of mass* is the
critical figure. 

So trying to grab that ledge with your finger tips works like this. If
in 1 g you can jump high enough to touch an 8 foot ledge, that *doesn't
mean that you can jump high enough to touch a 48 foot ledge in 1/6th g.

Instead: you are 6 feet tall. Your arms reach 18 inches above that. So
all you *really* jumped was 6 inches. Time 6 for 1/6th g gives 36
inches. Add 7'6" to that and you get 10'6". So you can grab a ledge at
10'6" at 1/6th g as easily as an 8' one at one g. 

Jumping *over* something (or up onto something) it's how high your feet
go. And that's a combo of the center of mass change and how far up you
can pull your feet. 

Standing *broad* jump *probably* depend on velocity, so it lumps in
with runing jumps.

> The same PC can do a running jump of 5m under 1G, 50m under 0.1G, 25m under
> 0.5, 2.5m under 2G, and 1.75m under 3G. Any such jump is going to require a
> task roll against an applicable skill.

Broad jumps depend on the takeoff velocity and angle. Period. Assuming
the angle is the same, and that you can get up to the same velocity
(more on that below) then the distance goes like this with the gravity
change. You have a horizontal and vertical velocity.  The vertical
velocity determines how long between when you leave the ground and when
you land again, as well as how high you get. The horizontal velocity
*multiplied by* the time in the air is how far you move horizontally.

So, vertical velocity divided by acceleration equals the time to peak
of trajectory. Double it to give the total time in air. Horizontal
velocity times this time is your distance.

Now for the gotchas. First, for a broad jump, the minimum takeoff angle
is governed by your ability to swivel your body from launching to
landing position *without* bashing your feet into the ground. Since
lower gravity gives more time in the air, you have more time for this,
and may be able to get by with a shallower launch angle. This changes
the split of your starting velocity between horizontal and vertical.
Higher gravity works in the opposite direction. And the relation isn't
linear. 

Worse, at very low gravities you get to throw most of this out the
window as you are noving at a sufficiently high fraction of orbital
velocity that you can't treat the path as a parabola. At a certain
(low) gravity, the height you can jump becomes infinite. That is, your
vertical velocity from the jump exceeds escape velocity. And long
before that the heights start getting really ridiculous.

And if you can run fast enough, you'll go into at least partial orbit. 

For vertical jumps at really low g, figure the *velocity* required to
jump that high at one g. Next figure escape velocity for the body you
are on. Subtract your jump velocity from that, and then figure at what
altitude that velocity matches escape velocity. That's how high you'll
go. 

Running is going to be affected by differing gravities in weird ways.
There are equally plausible arguments for running speed *increasing*
with gravity (pendulumn effect) and *descreasing* (other effects). We
really don't know. Maybe some of the sports medicine types have learned
enough about how the body moves to get some better data. 

Then there's traction. At high gee you have *lots* of traction, at low
gee you have very little.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:53:51 PST
Subject: Re: More T4 newbie questions, somebody please answer!

In mail you write:

> On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Matt Lewis wrote:
>
>> When mustering out benefits include the yacht or lab ship, does the 
>> character have to pay for them, like the free trader, or does he get it 
>> free, like the scout?
>
> Here's my thought on this one:
>
> The Scout is "free" because the ship remains the property of the 
> Imperium, and the ship as well as the character can be called back into 
> service when needed.  This is "canon."
>
> The Free Trader isn't free, because the character actually owns the ship 
> (well, he owns the mortgage anyway[G]).  
>
> So, the other two should be like the Free Trader, as I assume they are 
> owned by the characters who receive them.  

The yacht *might* be some sort of reward. So it might be paid for.

And the lab ship is likely to be paid for, simply because any career
that gets one is likely to be the sort of thing where some "scientific"
group figured that it was worth it to provide you with a ship. Consider
Jacques Cousteau and the Calypso. He "bought" and refitted the ship ( a
surplus WWII minesweeper!) mostly through a lot of hard work and
convincing research groups to fund him.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:09:54 PST
Subject: Re: [Noise] *Inago* Montoya, not "Iago"

In mail you write:

>> *set geek_mode = true
>> In a previous TML digest, someone made reference to the character "Iago
>> [sic] Montoya" from the movie "The Princess Bride".  The character's name
>> is "Inago", not "Iago".  
> [...]
>> *set geek_mode = false
>
> <GEEK CLASS="FURTHER">
>
> The name is properly spelt "Inigo".
>
> </GEEK>
<Geek class="Extreme">
The name comes from the *book*...

(whassamatta, don't nobody *read* no more?)
</geek>
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #437
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Traveller-digest         Friday, 20 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 438

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Moving stars
         2. Re: Just give me the pink slip!
         3. Re: Random Bar Tables
         4. Re:..
         5. Re: Stu's Rant
         6. Re: Stu's Rant
         7. Re: Water in the desert...
         8. Re: Economics in T4...
         9. Re: Water in the desert...
        10. RE: Random Bar Tables
        11. I tried to post these, but ... (fwd)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:59:57 PST
Subject: Re: Moving stars

In mail you write:

> Does this mean that the stars in the Core Subsector could have reshuffled
> themselves over a period of just 1000 years? Well.... only if we assume
> that they're moving at much greater relative velocities than the stars in
> our local group. Which might not be impossible. I don't own any maps of the
> Core sector from the Third Imperium era, so I can't take a stab at what
> those velocities might be - anyone care to guess?

Well, I'd like to request that once Marc gets "hand generated" sectors
to replace the messed up ones, that he plan on *never* changing the
stellar locations again (except possibly for the sort of drif you are
talking about. Ditto for stellar type. Only changes should be over
*large periods of time.

This will make the stuff that is *easily* detectable from a distance a
"known constant" and keep the heartburn among refs trying to work
around official releases down to a mamageable level.

It's a lot easier to tie new system data to an existing map position
than it is to re-arranging xboat routes and the like.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 20:26:16 PST
Subject: Re: Just give me the pink slip!

In mail you write:

>> The Free Trader isn't free, because the character actually owns the ship
>> (well, he owns the mortgage anyway[G]). 
>
> Once again, just watch them try and collect the payments. Call it 
> organic adventure material. In the words of Lenny Bruce: "Screw 'em. 
> They can afford it!"

If you can skip, they can send a Repo Man (or *team*) after you. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:14:36 PST
Subject: Re: Random Bar Tables

In mail you write:

>
> Random Bar Encounter Tables; 
>
> Table 1 Drunkeness (assumes active intake)
> By the end/middle of the evening the character is (2d6)
> 2. Passed out under a table, +8 on the Getting Lucky Table

Roll a difficult task against Con, critical failure indicates
incipient alcohol poisoning. If not treated daeth may result.

> 13. "Oh my god, who is this next to me and where am I"  The character
> remembers nothing after entering the bar the night before.  Partner roll
> is at -3 (effectively random).  just roll a d6 for the experience rating.  
>
> 14. "Oh my god, *WHAT* is this next to me and where am I"  Apply a -5 to
> the partner roll.  If human, This partner is quite scary and potentially
> (50%) dangerous (per the GM, one suggestion : Obsessive directed at the
> character).    

Ever hear the definition of "coyote ugly"? That's when you wake up next
to someone and you'd rather gnaw off your arm than risk waking them up
by tryingh to get it out from under them. ("coyote" reference is to
their escaping from traps by gnawing off foor caught in trap).

Sounds like it might fit a 14 result. :-)

ps. I just had a vision of a human using the phrase, then having to
explain it to his (now slightly irritated at the possible slur) Vargr
companion. I figure the Vargr will react one of three ways:

1. thinks it's hilarious
2. gets the reference but doesn't understand why it's funny
3. "humans are *weird*" reaction

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 19:02:19 PST
Subject: Re:..

In mail you write:

>>after hours, the former because it had a AYCD beverage bar.
>
> I'm guessing this means All You Can Drink
>
> If so, do you *really* have such places???

Sure. But before you get your hopes up, that's *non-alcoholic*
beverage. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:33:25 PST
Subject: Re: Stu's Rant

In mail you write:

> I thought I would make a random bar encounter table since PCs spend so much 
> time there, we might as well streamline that part of the adventure.
>
> hmmm...
> Random Bar Encounter Table (1d6)
> 1. player gets drunk.
> 2. player gets drunk and passes out.
> 3. player gets drunk, pukes, and passes out.
> 4. player gets drunk, passes out, and player's wallet gets swiped.
> 5. player gets lucky
> 6. player gets drunk and lucky.

7. player gets lucky *and* gets new kind of VD
8. player gets drunk, and wakes up with a partner that he's not
   even sure of the *species* of, much less the sex.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:35:54 PST
Subject: Re: Stu's Rant

In mail you write:

> BTW, just to make things different, I'm often want to run a couple of 
> sessions where the players important NPC meetings occur places other 
> than a bar...

Hey, check out book 5 of the Mageworlds series "The long Hunt" by Debra
Doyle & James McDonald. Our heroes decide to go sight seeing, and after
buying some trinkets, they want some refreshments. Just to keep up his
rep for culture, one insists on a tea & pastries shop. 

I won't spoil it for you by detailing what happens next. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 18:02:27 PST
Subject: Re: Water in the desert...

In mail you write:

> A third possibility is that they have found some new and interesting way
> of making or gathering water on an otherwise waterless world.  Some may be
> trapped in subterrainian ice around the poles (which, being subterrainian,
> wouldn't show up on the Hydro rating) suspended in the air (and
> collectable) or perhaps there are large available hydrogen and oxygen
> supplies (in the form of hydrochloric acid seas and iron oxide mines)
> ahich allow the domestic production of water (albiet expensively - but not
> as expensively as shipping it in).

The hydrochloric acid seas count as "hydro". :-)

> Yet another possibility for high tech societies is that the population is
> orbital (or primarily orbital) and water is perfectly or near perfectly
> conserved in the closed artificial ecosystem.  Occasional injections (due
> to unavoidable regular loss) of new material can be provided by mining icy
> bodies in the system (or gasses on/in planets).

And as my message pointed out, it's possible for fairly low tech
societies to conserve and recycle water. Roman level tech could even do
a decent job, given some tips. 

> Also, could water be better shipped as compressed gasses to be combined at
> the destination?  Water (If I remember right) does not compress well in
> its liquid form.  But I bet there is a better way to transport it than in
> that form.

Nope. It takes a *lot* of work to compress gases to the (rather high)
density of water. Add in the weight of the tanks, and liquid wins. 

If I was hauling large amounts of water (whether for drinking or just
as a convenient way to haul hydrogen and oxygen), I'd build a
specialized ship. Build it like an asteroid hull, but out of *ice*. Use
a "netting" type hull grid like one of the *old* cargo tug designs in
CT. 

If you can find a copy, "Gallagher's Glacier" gives a good description
of a ship like this. Except here the owner is operating it as a
freighter! 

Sure, the equipment slowly melts it's way thru the ice towards the
"down" side of the ship (Gallagher used spin gravity, so it migrated
towards the outside). This is from "pressure melting" of the ice.  This
means every time it gets inconvient enough, you melt away the floor
until the equipment is conveniently accessible again. Pump the melt
water to the outside of the hull in an appropriate place and let it
refreeze. 

Sure, the configuration of rooms isn't fixed. But that can be a plus.
Gallagher smuggled a lot of stuff without the customs men realizing
that he could have cargo holds that weren't connected to anything. When
he needed to get to them, he'd melt a new tunnel.

While such a ship isn't going to like more than a g or so of
uncompensated acceleration, It's going to handle some types of attack
*very* well. For example, lasers and particle beams are practically
useless. Furst they have to raise the ice to melting temp. Then they
have to melt it. Then they have to raise it to boiling, then they have
to boil it. Each step takes a remarkable anout of energy.

Also, since you would have *designed* the thing with fuel purifiers,
the entire ship is "fuel". 

Regardless, the concept is quite workable, if a bit odd. Build it into
a *big* chunk of ice, fly the ice to market, calve off as much as you
want to sell, head back out and find more ice, which you cam "weld"
onto the ship easily.

Repeat as needed. If you need to hide out for a while, burrow the
hardware into a *big* ice chunk. You may not be able to jump, but you
can still use your manuever drive, so what if it's only 1/1000 of a g?
How long will it take the bad guys to blast through a few km of ice if
they happen to notice you? :-)

Hmmm. I just had a thought. If the bad guys do spot you, rig missile
warheads as an Orion drive setup. You get a boost away from the
baddies, they eat hot plasma. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:19:23 PST
Subject: Re: Economics in T4...

In mail you write:

> There were a couple of interesting historical events like the fortification
> of Clarke's Moon - A major (more than 40% of the empire's total naval
> tonnage) naval task force jumped in with several million tons of cargo
> ships, used the task force's spinal meson guns to excavate 30 thousand
> craters suitable for the prefab units (100 Ton meson bay, powerplant,
> computer, fiber optic links to neighboring bunkers) they'd brought along in
> the supply train.  Dropped the units with specially designed combat
> engineer ships, and buried them.  Then they spent several months using the
> moon (sole moon of the one gas giant in the crucially located asteroid
> belt) as target practice with the intention of "making it smooth as a
> $%#$%! billiard ball" so that the enemy couldn't be sure where the meson
> guns were buried.  It cost him several years budget, but it cut the other
> empire in half since it was the only J-2 connection between the two
> subsectors.

Meat. Though I *do* have to mention that even Earth's moon is far
*smoother* than a billiard ball (check the diameter against the highest
and lowest points if you don't believe ne)

Frankly, I think blasting the surface into house sized chunks for a
depth of a km or so would be a good start. Then blast the top layers of
that into smaller chunks, and the top layers on that into even smaller
ones. Repeat until the smallest size is gravel, and the gravel has been
"shaken down" to fill the gaps between the bigger pieces (but still
leaving a solid layer of gravel on top.

This has several advantages. First, it makes the thermal and acoustic
conductivity of the surface damn close to *nil*. So no IR pinpointing.
And shock waves from surface impacts will damp out fast. 

It also has interesting effects with regards to other sensors and other
attack methods.

> Then there was the guy who decided to build half-million ton dispersed
> structure carriers that carried 5,000 Flea-class fighters.  The carrier
> groups also had several 200Kton tenders that provided extra maintenance
> facilities.  A battle group with a couple of these would jump into a system
> and pretty effectively bar it from enemy activity.  The expression on the
> guy who first got hit was priceless when Mark said "I launch 5,000
> fighters. <pause for comprehension>  And what the hell, the Boyington will
> launch 5K fighters as well.  I believe you were bragging about the 800
> fighters in your screen?"

I can see the sensor ops now. 

"Target echo has become *extremely* diffuse and is spreading at a
steady rate..."

"Explosion?"

"No sir, it's too slow and too even for that... Shit!"

"What?"

"Sir, sensors report target has launched multiple thousands, repeat,
thousands of fighter sized craft."

> On falling rocks - all the PCs thought of them, seperately, built them, and
> then  came to seperate agreements not to use them (typically, they'd get
> into a treaty negotiation and whip out the big stick, only to have it
> countered, panic and agree not to use them against each other) or even to
> mutually disarm.  Unsurprisingly, they always held back a couple or three
> "just in case."

Sounds about right to me. And it sounds like the real world too. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:30:03 PST
Subject: Re: Water in the desert...

In mail you write:

> I've been working on some trade routes in the Lunion subsector and
> noticed that seven systems have a zero hydrographics percentage.  I
> figured with that high demand, drinking water transport must be a
> fairly big business, especially in the Lunion subsector.  My question
> is, what sort of factors would come into play when shipping drinking
> water to a dry world?

> Here is what I've got so far:
>
> 1 gallon of water = 3.8 liters
> 1 gallon of water = 9 pounds = 4.05 kilograms
> 246 gallons = 935 liters = 1 metric ton (approximately)
> base price for 1 ton of cargo is Cr.5,000 (T4, pg 166).

1 liter of water = 1 kg (original definition of kg!)
1 kiloliter (aka 1 cubic meter) of water = 1 metric ton).

The unit definitions have changed over the years, but 1000 liters = 1
metric ton is *still* correct to within less than 1% error. 

Also, the US gallon is *defined* as 231 cubic inches. That's 3785 cc
per gal. That gives 264 gallons per kiloliter. 

Also, at 3785 cc per gal, that gives 3785 grams per gallon (or 3.8 kg
per gal). Divide by 28.35 grams per ounce (another defined relation)
gives about 134 ounces, divide by 16 ounces per pound gives 8.3 pounds
per gallon.

Looks like your pounds per gallon figure was hosed.

But as you can see, it really pays to keep the fact that the metric
system is *based* on water in mind.

> Unless Ianic can locate water from an alternate source, or it is
> provided via another method, it seems like water transport is a gold
> mine for characters!

There *is* an alternate source. It's called "conservation". All they
neede is enough water to make up for the losses in their recycling. And
when you consider that the basic animal energy equation (carbohydrates
+ oxygen yields water + carbon dioxide + energy) produces *large*
amounts of water, they get a bonus there from every single visitor.

> What other factors should I take in consideration to balance out this
> seeming inequity in things.  Ianic has a population in the millions!
> How could they supply their TL 5 society with enough drinking water
> every day for their people, livestock, agriculture?  (not to mention
> coolant for their vehicles, wet-cell batteries, bathing, cooking,
> manufacturing, etc.)  It seems to me that every day must be a crisis
> for these people unless the planetiod belt is full o' icey chunks.

Recycling water is *easy*. And given the massive shortage, the way they
likely do it is that *all* "waste liquid" from whatever source is
collected and recycled. Also, major efforts will be taken to not
contaminate water. Polluting a water supply will be a capital offense.
*That* will encourage industry to clean up their act. They'll also use
processes that either keep the water in a closed loop, or that use
little or no water.

Read Dune (the book!). It'll give you some ideas. 

Agriculture will not be out in the open. And livestock will tend to be
smaller animals as well as water efficent animals. For example, sheep,
goats and rabbits rather than cattle and pigs. Greenhouses will be used
for growing plants, so that you won't lose the water that evaporates. 

Solar stills will recover a lot of water from various wastes. Wind
traps amd other tricks can recover significant amounts of water from
"dry" air. 

Dwellings will be constructed to minimize water loss. This is possible
at quite low tech levels once you know how. For instance,
counter-current heat exchangers can be modified to not only manage heat
transfer, but also *moisture* transfer. Our noses do this...

You can do it with something as simple as narrow, convoluted passages
limed with moisture absorbent material.

Also, low hydrographics is not the same as lacking water. It just means
that there isn't much *surface* water. 

The planet could be one big sand dune, but with a massive water table
100 or so meters down. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Steven Ward <Steven.Ward@brunel.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:15:51 BST
Subject: RE: Random Bar Tables

I'm sorry if this has appeared on the list already but I have only just 
subscribed.

If I recall, there was a group of tables published in an old issue of Space 
Gamer that enabled you to create a random bar.  
I certainly got my fun out of them...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen? It's been 15 hours. We are gonna grow old and die in here. 
Stephen? Stephen, there's a Martian war machine parked outside. 
They'd like to have a word with you about the common cold." 
- -- Vance Hendricks to Dr. Franklin in Babylon 5:"Infection"

Steven Ward
E-Mail: Steven.Ward@Brunel.ac.uk 
World wide web: http://www.wlihe.ac.uk/~ward/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------






------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:36:14 +1000
Subject: I tried to post these, but ... (fwd)

  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

- ------=_NextPart_000_01BBA600.33884500
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1

A friend, Phil McGregor, tried to post to the TML without sucess. I
have repost his forwarded message from me to the TML. All reply mail 
should be sent via aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au


>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au

"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:57:27 +1000
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
To: dtadams@ar.com.au
Subject: I tried to post these, but ...

These are the posts I *tried* REPEATEDLY to make - at least 3-4 times
*each* message.

Needless to say, none got through!

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel
- ------=_NextPart_000_01BBA600.33884500
Content-Type: MESSAGE/RFC822
Content-ID: <Pine.3.89.9609201810.B6062@ar.ar.com.au>

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Subject: High Tech Warfare
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:51:50 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1085
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Marine Officers
> Date: Saturday, 7 September 1996 2:10
> 
> On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca> said:
> 
> >On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> >> 
> >> I draw the line at giving a Naval Ground Force Lt. the keys to any
nuclear
> >> aresenal, the are inventive enough on their own.
> 
> >  Take a look at the Imperial Marine APC. As early as Striker (the
> >original, not II) or even book 4 - the APC has *one* main weapon (a
> >rapid-pulse fusion gun) and several *nuclear* tac missiles.
> 
> Yes, and I used 3G3 to design some very nasty conventional missles for
MT
> Marines.  The Fusion Y gun was a directed weapon.  Nukes are nasty,
dirty
> and affect an area for decades.  You want to nuke a site?  do it from
orbit.
> You want to go in, level the Ine Givar base, and drag the cell leader
out in
> his pajamas?  Send a platoon of Marines.

You know where the Ine Givar base is? You don't really want that Ine Givar
leader? Drop a few tons of ceramic Smartpellets onto the area from orbit
and you have one collapsed base and a lot of hamburger. Who needs
Marines?

> Sending in ground troops, even in Battledress and fusion guns, means you
> aren't just going for mass destruction, you have an objective.  Using
nukes
> is a clumsy excuse for real military skill.

 And the beauty of orbital smartweapons is that you don't *need* nukes!

Phil McGregor
(Please excuse if this appears more than once - problems maybe at this
end!)
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel
- ------=_NextPart_000_01BBA600.33884500
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From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Subject: Advanced Tech Warfare
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:50:57 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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> Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> In mail you write:

> Slight problem here. Say they are in an area like the Balkans. The
> Serbs will sneak into a Croat area to attack, and get the hell out of
> there. That way it's the Croats who get nailed. This sort of thing
> happens in real life. Heck, even the more "dedicated" guerilla types
> will attack in areas they don't live so as to increase the number of
> people with a reason to hate the invaders.

How badly do you want to teach these guerillas/bandits an "object lesson"?
If they have nothing that you really want, and are upsetting the things
that you *do* want, well, just dump a load of ceramic smartrubble on the
several square kays that they are passing through (from orbit, of course).
Everything - and I mean *everything* - in the region affected no longer
exists! Do this a few times and there aren't any more guerillas/bandits.
Do you care if the (few) survivors hate your guts as long as they do
nothing about it? Why would the imperium care if these sorts of actions
got the results they wanted?

> Sabotaging fuel is harder too. Bbut I can think of a couple of
> possibilities. A device that when slipped into an LH2 tank sits there
> until the fuel level gets *way* down. Then it ignites a charge of the
> material they use in things like "SolidOx" torches (basicly a solid
> that releases an *enormous* amount of oxygen when ignited). Use the
> Hydrogen to cool the gas so it can mix well (not that hard to set up).
> Then, once the tank is full of the right mixture of oxygen and
> hydrogen, supply a spark. The resulting blast should *easily* rival a
> truck bomb. And it'll likely destroy or at least incapacitate even an
> AFV.

Of course, this assumes that the locals have enough tech to even suspect
how the invaders tech works. Why would a Croat or Serb or Bosnian peasant
who probably never got more than an Elementary School education and for
whom the most complicated piece of tech he knows anything about is his
AK-47 clone know anything about Fusion power systems? How would he even
have a clue as to how to jigger the input lines so as to introduce O2 into
the tanks?

Phil McGregor
(PS - I've tried to post this twice, and after a wait of several days, it
hasn't appeared on the list - maybe its something wrong this end; so if it
eventually appears more than once, please accept my apologies)
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel
- ------=_NextPart_000_01BBA600.33884500
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From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Subject: Advanced TL Warfare
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:49:17 +1000
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>  Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au> wrote
> On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> > In mail you write:
> > 
> > > The disparity of which you speak _was_ addressed in _Striker_ and
> > > _Striker II_. Low-tech armies get ground into sausage against
> > > high-tech armies in combat. The challenge for the low-tech guys is
to
> > > find a way to win -- to deny the enemy the means to wage war -- that
> > > does not involve human-wave assaults, etc.
> > 
> > Anyone who thinks that high-tech vs low-tech means an automatic win
for
> > the high tech folks is either assuming overwhelming numerical
> > superiority. or *really* dumb low-techs.

It depends on what you're fighting over and how bad you want to win.
Actually, I suspect that I'm the guy Darryl was commenting about in his
initial remarks. Let's look at the problem of resisting a high tech
attacker again --

Say I'm a TL15 Marine Officer and I have a mission to take and hold a
particular planet and certain installations and cities on its surface
(and, probably, above it - if it's of a high enough TL). The Planetary
Army (and any armed civilians) are, understandably, not enamoured of these
ideas and decide to resisrt. Say that they are TL7.

OK. What do I do? Well, first of all, I check my intelligence and
determine the site of all major (and minor) military bases through
intelligence assets - humint or techint ... and the latter is going to be
so sophisticated that the defenders probably won't even know its being
done. Then, well, I *have* space superiority (maybe they can put up a few
Shuttle equivalents with chemical rockets, and a few Killersats with nukes
or primitive lasers ... but I brush them aside with my TL/15 Close Escorts
or Destrotyers).

So, what can I do -- well, under Striker (or Striker II), Mercenary, or
any iteration of Traveller, I have to go in and refight WW2 with tanks and
APCs. Sure, they have fusion weapons and tacnuke missiles, but it *still*
leaves open the *remote* possibility that I might take casualties from a
sufficiently ingenious enemy ... probably more by bad luck than anything
else. But why should I have to?

The defenders *have* to mass their forces, because of their relatively
shitty tech, in order to mass the firepower to have any chance of
resistance. Great! From orbit, a couple of bundles of smart "crowbars" ...
aerodynamically shaped chunks of ceramics or, perhaps, even steel or
tungsten ... are targetted against point targets as small as enemy
armoured vehicles, trucks, heavy weapon and artillery positions, not to
mention the pitiful ICBM equivalents that could be retargeted (in theory)
against my spacecraft. Within minutes a time on target bombardment
destroys them all ... the enemy has no ECM that can degrade my sensors
and, if I choose, I can use TL14 (or even TL13, even TL12) "mature"
technology to ensure reliability rather than relatively "unreliable" but
"cutting edge" TL15 tech. He probably doesn't even have any warning. To
take care of the troops, well, equally "smart" clouds of ceramic "rubble"
are targetted against their deployment areas and, to put it bluntly,
pulverise everything within their area of effect down to several meters.
No-one and nothing within these areas survive.

Having destroyed all the *regular* forces, I *could* move in and -
perhaps, barely - take losses from enraged civilians. OK, so what do I do
then? Well, I take out certain key power distribution nodes (not the
generators, just the transmission lines and the like) and leave all the
major towns and cities in the dark. Transport choke points such as
bridges, mountain passes, highway overpasses and the like are also
destroyed or "neutralised". All this could well happen simultaneously with
the initial strike. This would be a *major* inconvenience for the
defenders civilians - do they really want to starve and freeze/swelter in
the dark? I could ensure that they do without ever setting foot on the
planetary surface!

At this point, I simply demand their surrender. What can they do to
resist? Damn all.

Do I need to garrison the planetary surface? Nope. Simply designate a
government down there to be in charge and let *them* do my dirty work. If
things get too dicey for them to control, further salutary measures
against the civilian population can be taken as needed - all causing
minimal *direct* casualties - but threatening to blow them back to the
stone age if they don't co-operate.

And this assumes that there is something down there that I *really* need.
If there isn't, well, all bets are off!

> My point was that the force ratio between TL is the facter, technolagy 
> was the reason. 1 person with a TL15 Battle dress is still going to be 
> overwealmed by 100,000 spear wealders. The TL15 would just kill a high 
> proportion of the attacker , equivelent to a TL10 Company size unit.

Actually, the guy in Battle Dress would kill hundreds, if not thousands,
with available ammo and then simply retreat, using the Grav Belt built
into his augmented BD! He could keep doing this again and again as long as
ammo resupply could be arranged. The guys with the spears simply couldn't
touch him. Sure, he'd be one tired bugger by the time he'd killed them all
(assuming they didn't break and run first - which they would), but, with
even minimal sense (and a lot of ammo) there's nothing they could do!

> > Against *intelligent* low-techs, the high-tech had better be *very*
> > good, or else they'll get handed their heads on a platter.

And against *intelligent* and *ruthless* high techs, theres damn all the
low techs can do except to say "yes sir, yes sir, three bags full sir".
 
> Also, many high tech governments (take America) , but not all, would not

> be willing to take a smaller ratio of losses , than say an army in the 
> Feudla Japan or Crusader period.

But the high tech Marines don't *need* to take on the low techs in any way
that requires them to take casualties.

Phil McGregor

(PS - I've tried to post this twice already, but, with a wait of several
days each time it hasn't come through on the list - perhaps its something
wrong at my end. If it eventually appears more than once, please accept my
apologies).

- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel

- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer, Will Travel
- ------=_NextPart_000_01BBA600.33884500--

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Friday, 20 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 439

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
         2. Re: Dangerous Journeys
         3. Re: Dangerous Journeys
         4. Re: Dangerous Journeys?
         5. Re: Dawn and Established History
         6. Tom Ellis re:Platform Wars
         7. HTML for Traveller suite
         8. Re: Traveller for Macs, Windows, OS/2, Unix & other!
         9. Re: Tom Ellis re:Platform Wars
        10. Why the Vilani Imperium Fell
        11. Re: Why the Vilani Imperium Fell
        12. Re: Dawn and Established History
        13. Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
        14. Re:Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
Re: Travller Macs
        15. Traveller Suite Availability on Different Platforms
        16. An irreverent look at Bar Encounters
        17. Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
        18. Re:Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
        19. Re: Why the Vilani Imperium Fell
        20. Re: a book for gear-heads

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:42:52 +1000
Subject: Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Ross Coburn wrote:

> Alternately, is there a Mac coding god out there who would be willing to 
> convert it?  I'm a CodeWarrior newbie myself.
> 
> By the way, I can speak for six myself, and know that both Glenn Grant 
> and Charles Collin and Darroch Elliott (and who knows who else, I'm just 
> pointing fingers here) should also have something to say on the matter.

The other option is to do it as JAVA/HTML , so it is hardware independant 
(except for the CDrom)

I have heard some reviews from T$R's attempt. It sucked the big one. No 
hypertext at all, just some one typing out the rules into a wp program.

If JAVA/Opendoc/HTML is used (Since Jo is working at Lotus, she will be 
up to date on the stuff that Big Blue / Lotus / Apple are churning out in 
this reguard), we can have a full blown product that is fully hypertexted 
(all relevent terms hyperlinked, ie you press a planet name and see its 
system stats and stellar map.), with JAVA/Opendoc character 
generation/ship construction/planet design, that can be run on OS/2, 
Apple, Unix (most flavors via netscape) Win3.1, WinNT, Win95, Dos (i think)
whatever.

> 
> Ross Coburn
> for Prometheus Design
> ross@odyssee.net
> 

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:52:27 +0200
Subject: Re: Dangerous Journeys

On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, P. ENGEBOS wrote:
> 	The basic rules (which were reprinted as Mythus Prime) were, IMO, 
> one of the best written and simplest fantasy systems around.

Agreed.

> Plus there is a 
> need to reference a LOT of charts to do anything (all of which can be 
> thrown away without losing any flavor). 

This is absolutely wrong.  For combat use basically need _one_ table 
(which is printed on each character sheet and lists the individual armor 
pieces).  If you don't write down stats for NPCs, ok, you'll need to 
refer to some tables (I'd guess about two: the simplified armor table and
the weapon statistics table). 

Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:48:11 +0200
Subject: Re: Dangerous Journeys

On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Daniel Poulin wrote:
> What was truly offensive about it was the fact that Gygax must have thought we
> were all morons or something.  Instead of building with the knowledge of his players
> he attempted to reinvent the wheel.

Actually (as far as I know) this was done to prevent legal problems with 
TSR.  Also the new names are not really difficult to learn (take a look 
at the Immortal rpg... that's a good example for a truly stupid way of 
re-inventing the wheel).  I'm a native German and I didn't have any 
problems memorizing the names while reading the rules.  The one confusing 
part might be the attribute names and even they are logical if one thinks 
about them.

Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:41:29 +0200
Subject: Re: Dangerous Journeys?

On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, P. ENGEBOS wrote:

Ok, although this is becoming off-topic I'll nonetheless comment it.

> On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
> > Hey.  I was wondering if anyone here had Dangerous Journeys.  I have found a
> > copy and thought of picking it up, but I was wanting some input first! :)
> Be warned:
> 	1.	This is NOT Traveller

True.

> 	2.	The advanced rules are BAD.  We're talking Gygax first ed 
>               ADD bad.

This is your opinion and IMHO simply stupid.  The editing is not very 
good, yes.  The advanced rules are actually extremely simple (except for 
toying with armors but you can choose several simpler options and for 
spells but that's also _very_ easy to fix).

Once you manage to read the manual and actually try the rules, you'll 
find that they are very easy to memorize, much simpler to handler than 
GURPS with all its special cases, much faster in combat than HERO, 
Advanced GURPS combat, Rolemaster, ... with as much (or nearly as much) 
detail and generally very user-friendly.  The editing is pretty bad, though.

Back to the topic: are the signed T4 hardcovers already being send out?  Did 
anyone in Germany already order and receive one (I really would like to 
have mine :-).

Greetings from Germany,

				Thomas Biskup.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:33:22 +0300
Subject: Re: Dawn and Established History

>> When was Sternmetal Horizons formed?
> 
>       Sternmetal sounds so f*cking german, that it has to dated
> 	back to the Solomanies.

        Probably, but still it could be later. In Solomani Rim
        sector there is a few worlds colonized by distinct ethnic
        groups during Rule of Man, where the old Terrain languages
        and cultures have remained unchanged. It is possible that
        all major Terrain languages as still used somewhere.

        Fo example, according to "Languages in Traveller" (The Best
        of the Journal, volume IV, 1983), Thorwald is pure ethnic
        planet inhabited by German speakers.

        I once saw an old Swedish RPG magazine that had an Traveller
        article (it was some kind of espionage/shy-hunt adventure,
        but I could not understand Swedish well enough). There was
        two illustrations of a Solomani patrol cruiser, and one of
        these illustrations showed a name plate set on hull:

        "FPC-400C Far Patrol Cruiser,
         Rheinmetal Yards, Saxe/Capella/Solomani Rim"

        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :


------------------------------

From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 08:14:31 -0500
Subject: Tom Ellis re:Platform Wars

Tom, this isn't a jyhad (at least not for me).  I simply don't have, nor 
do I have any desire to own, a PC, and so approached the designers of the 
Traveller suite concerning the possibility of getting a Mac version done. 
 I was told that they would be interested in doing so if they knew the 
user base was large enough.

Ergo, we are making ourselves known.  No more, no less.  You'd do the 
same if a bit of software wasn't coming out for your platform. . .

------------------------------

From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 08:16:01 -0500
Subject: HTML for Traveller suite

Eris, I'm not entirely certain here, but I think what the Traveller suite 
is is a collection of applications, not simply documents to be read.  If 
this is the case, Acrobat et al are pretty useless.

Mr cr.02,
Ross

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:33:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller for Macs, Windows, OS/2, Unix & other!

Hear hear! I am running the Merlin (OS/2 4.0) beta myself, and would love
to see some generic cross platform stuff, that's why I suggested java, it
comes as part of the OS with Merlin.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:46:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Tom Ellis re:Platform Wars

On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Ross Coburn wrote:

> Tom, this isn't a jyhad (at least not for me).  I simply don't have, nor 
> do I have any desire to own, a PC, and so approached the designers of the 
> Traveller suite concerning the possibility of getting a Mac version done. 
>  I was told that they would be interested in doing so if they knew the 
> user base was large enough.
> 
> Ergo, we are making ourselves known.  No more, no less.  You'd do the 
> same if a bit of software wasn't coming out for your platform. . .
> 

It isn't, I run OS/2. I happen to be able to run some other platforms on
this more flaxible than any other OS, but nobody is breaking down doors
with OS/2 Traveller software. And I was a bit tongue in cheek, it was the
name of the thread that got me going.

As for traveller tools, I like this talk of html/java based tools, then
just about ANYONE could run the exact same tools.

(humor mode on)
Maybe the Linux, Mac, and OS/2 users on the list should band together and
toss the Windoze crowd out the airlock?
(humor mode off).


Tom, powered by OS/2 Warp Merlin, screenshot at

http://www.lm.com/~tellis/


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 20 Sep 1996 13:58:30 GMT
Subject: Why the Vilani Imperium Fell

>A gallon is just over 8 lbs., now enough of this off topicness AND LOOK IT
>UP IT YOU DON"T BELIEVE IT. ;)

Tom Ellis is obviously a Vilani.  Notice the appeal to written authority.   A
_true_ Solomani would have weighed a gallon of water and reported the
results.   :-)

I will note that the Imperial gallon is nearly 20% larger than the American
gallon, so that a gallon weighs nearly 10lbs in those Commonwealth countries
that still use Imperial, not metric measures.

Parenthetically, historically there have been many different sizes of gallon,
depending on what was being measured.  The American gallon was actually a
standard British wine gallon, adopted during the American Rebellion. 
Opinions differ on whether this was because they had more wine measures in
the colonies, or because the colonial merchants could make more money (rather
like the cereal company slightly shrinking the weight of a package of corn
flakes).

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:42:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Why the Vilani Imperium Fell

On 20 Sep 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> >A gallon is just over 8 lbs., now enough of this off topicness AND LOOK IT
> >UP IT YOU DON"T BELIEVE IT. ;)
> 
> Tom Ellis is obviously a Vilani.  Notice the appeal to written authority.   A
> _true_ Solomani would have weighed a gallon of water and reported the
> results.   :-)


How dare you! (waves his FGMP-15 threatingingly). I'll have you know that
the name Ellis in my case dates back to the Solomani Middle Eastern name
"Elias", and was first changed when an ancestor of mine landed on an
island in what was the United States, and island also named Ellis. 

Vilani!*spit* I'll give you Vilani, why I outta..... ;)



> 
> I will note that the Imperial gallon is nearly 20% larger than the American
> gallon, so that a gallon weighs nearly 10lbs in those Commonwealth countries
> that still use Imperial, not metric measures.
> 
> Parenthetically, historically there have been many different sizes of gallon,
> depending on what was being measured.  The American gallon was actually a
> standard British wine gallon, adopted during the American Rebellion. 
> Opinions differ on whether this was because they had more wine measures in
> the colonies, or because the colonial merchants could make more money (rather
> like the cereal company slightly shrinking the weight of a package of corn
> flakes).
> 


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 01:51:29 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Dawn and Established History

Moin Hal Carmer,

> Much as I hate to say this, but it almost sounds like you have a brother
> named Chekov who constantly stated that <insert item here> was invented in
> Russia, or that <insert quote here> was coined in Russia, or that <insert
> famous inventor> was born in Russia.  Of course, this could be something
> that happens in Scotland as well, for was it not the famous Engineer
> Scotty who once said "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on
> me"?   <grin>

	I dont think that this is cannon, the first solomanies had
	different languages. Now 1202 Galanglic, which is based on
	Solomany American English, is the only Solomany language
	spoken in the charted space. (Ok there are the islands in
	the riff, where french, russian, and german is still spoken
	on some worlds ;-)

	So I would always, think that names who sound solomany
	are very likely to have solomany origin. And exspecialy
	that names who sound solomany, but not Galanglic should
	be dated back to the first solomany expansion.

	BTW does anybody have an english Kinunir, and can tell
	me if "Allgemeine Raumschiffwerfen" is the original name
	or a !BAD! translation ?

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Guy Wilson <ccguy@showme.missouri.edu>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:55:19 +0000
Subject: Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

Amen.  I have Macs at home and at work, but really do feel that this
should be a cross-platform issue. HTML/Java is a great solution.

Guy Wilson

Michael Koehne wrote:
> 

> 
>         I would realy like if a traveller suite will be portable,
>         e.g. implemented in HTML/Java, Tcl/Tk or Phyton. These 3
>         languages are slow but they provide cross platform
>         development.
> 
>         I would realy dislike if this Traveller Suite will be MS-Only.
>

------------------------------

From: Amnuss@aol.com
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:08:28 -0400
Subject: Re:Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
Re: Travller Macs

I'm a Mac user and Proud Of It.  Bought my first on in 1987.  Currently have
a PowerMac 7500/100.  I use and have worked on IBM's and its clones.  Windows
is just a Mac wanabe.

As an airline employee I liked the "If OS's were Airlines" post.

Alan

------------------------------

From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 20 Sep 96 15:16:06 EDT
Subject: Traveller Suite Availability on Different Platforms

Greetings to Mac, Linux, Unix, Atari, Amiga, Sinclair Spectrum, and
of course, Windows users...
      Andy is heading off imminently for a week so I get to do
these Policy Statement things for now. This is our official policy
as far as platform availability for Traveller Suite:

      "Project Dulinor" is the code name of the effort being conducted
to bring a Suite of software for support of Traveller-4 referees and
players to market.
      The project started with a Alpha/Concept Prototype that was presented
to Ken Whitman and English distributors at EuroGenCon. This Prototype will
be made publicly available early next week over the web at a number of
mirror sites for ease of access. The software will be free but unsupported
and we can't guarantee upward compatabilty. The main reason for this release
is to garner user feedback to drive our development and release cycle.
It contains a number of modules similar to ones that may appear in the final
version. 
      Dulinor will be released, itself, over the course of three major 
milestones.
The first milestone's major features will be character creation and maintenance,
an astrogator, and a planetary map editor. The target release date is at
OrkCon on the 1st of November. For the other milestones we have tentative
feature lists and project schedules for these releases but they are not firm
enough  to release. Instead we are releasing the Alpha, which contains
representations of most of the final feature set, for free and based on your
feedback we will adjust our development plans.
      Due to market demands the Traveller Suite of software is being
developed with Windows 3.1, 3.11, NT and 95 as the primary release
platform.  We are happy to produce this code on any platform for which there is
demand. Upon completion and release of the first milestone we will
begin looking at what is required to port that over while work progresses
on the second and third milestones.

      That's the official statement.
      Speaking as the "technical lead" I understand everyone's desires for
cross platform executability. In my day job I work with designing and developing
cross platform tools for Lotus. I've used a number of cross platform development
environments. (My personal preference is for IBM's Open Class, and I'm _not_
just saying that because I work for them!)
      However, any one of these strategies that I have used have one thing in
common: overhead. It takes much longer (2-3 times we've found) to develop
for cross platform use. Yes, in the long run, you save time. But the decision 
that
was made for this project was that "time to market" rated a higher priority than
"available platforms".
      Still, having said that, with the right people using the right tools in 
the right
environments my hopes are high that we will be able to produce additional
platforms with a three month lag time. If you want to volunteer come back to me
in November. In the mean time grab the Alpha when it is available and produce
commentary on that...
         Cheers,
              Jo

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:16:46 -0500
Subject: An irreverent look at Bar Encounters

I've been thinking about the Random Bar Encounter and I think it would be
unfair to each of the incarnations if any were left out, so...

CT (Classic Traveller) (Books 1-3 Version)

The referee should determine the results of the Bar Encounter.


CT (Classic Traveller) (Advanced Version)

Roll 1D6. On 4+ character gets drunk.


MT (MegaTraveller)

Rndom ar Enounte Tabl (1d6
 1. chracer ets dunk.
    3. character ges druk, pukes, ad poses ot.
4. charter gts drnk, psses ut, ad karcktr's waletgets wiped
   caraktr getslucky
        6. chrcer get druk and luky.
7. caraer gets lucy *and gets ew kind of VD
   8.  cacter gts drunk, nd akes up wth a portner that his not
evenof the *spesies* of, muck les sex.

(DM +2 if scond Br Encunter, D+4 f activily seking sexx)


TNE (Traveller The New Era) (Main Book)

Random Alcohol Establishment Encounter House Table (2d6-2)
 0. character is severly injured in brawl. (See combat section for brawl)
 1. character gets drunk.
 2. character gets drunk and passes out.
 3. character gets drunk, pukes, and passes out.
 4. character gets drunk, passes out, and player becomes a Hiver expirement.
 5. character gets lucky
 6. character gets drunk and lucky.
 7. character gets lucky *and* gets infected with Virus (See Virus Rules)
 8. character gets drunk, and wakes up with a Hiver partner
 9+ Virus infects character and bar and kills everyone


TNE (Traveller The New Era) (Main Book+FFS)

Random Alcohol Establishment Encounter House Table (2d6-2)
 0. character is severly injured in brawl. (See combat section pg 120 for brawl)
 1. character gets drunk. (See Table pg 12 for further results)
 2. character gets drunk and passes out.(See Table pg 24 for further results)
 3. character gets drunk, pukes, and passes out.(See Table pg 32 for further
    results)
 4. character gets drunk, passes out, and player becomes a Hiver
expirement.(See 
    Table pg 64 for further results)
 5. character gets lucky(See Table pg 41 for further results)
 6. character gets drunk and lucky.(See Table pg 99 for further results)
 7. character gets lucky *and* gets infected with Virus (See Virus Rules Table 
    pg 111)
 8. character gets drunk, and wakes up with a Hiver partner(See Table pg 87 for 
    further results)
 9+ Virus infects character and bar and kills everyone(See Table pg 75 for 
    further results)


T4 (Mark Miller's Traveller)

Roll 1.5 D6. On 5+ character gets drunk. (DM+2 if second encounter)

Alternatively the referee should determine the results of the Bar Encounter.


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:23:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

sp> From: spritch@cinternet.net (Steven Pritchard)
sp> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 01:25:15 -0400
sp> Subject: Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
sp>
sp> Ok...I'm a diehard Traveller player/ref from way back in '78, and
sp> I'm a Mac User. THERE'D BETTER BE A MAC RELEASE FOR THE TRAVELLER
sp> SUITE!!!
sp>
sp> If there can be an Amiga re-release of MegaTraveller2, I think
sp> somebody could work on coding a version of the suite for us.

Who has information about the folks that are working on the Traveller
CD-ROM Suite?  Perhaps we should forward them all the postings indicating
interest in a Macintosh version.  This would show them the additional
potential sales that have a Hybrid multiplatform version of the suite on
CD-ROM.

Chuck


___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/




------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:37:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re:Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 Amnuss@aol.com wrote:

> I'm a Mac user and Proud Of It.  Bought my first on in 1987.  Currently have
> a PowerMac 7500/100.  I use and have worked on IBM's and its clones.  Windows
> is just a Mac wanabe.


Windoze is also not the only choice on Intel hardware. There are far
better choices, OS/2 and Linux to name two. Oh yes...choice was that word
they left out of the Macintosh specs ;)


> 
> As an airline employee I liked the "If OS's were Airlines" post.
> 
> Alan
> 


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:44:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Why the Vilani Imperium Fell

Besides...are you QUESTIONING the reference that the Party published
listing various weights and measures? (takes notes for SolSec as he
talks...)

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:03:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: a book for gear-heads

ISBN? Publisher? Cost?

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)

On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Mark Urbin wrote:

> A few weeks back, I picked up a book that will tickle the fancy of
> Traveller gear-heads.  It's called "The Millennial Project:  Colonizing the
> Galaxy in Eight Easy Step", by Marshall T. Savage.
> 
> The Introduction is by Arthur C. Clarke.  A quote from the introduction on
> the cover reads, "I am completely awed, and I don't awe easy, by the
> author's command of a dozen engineering disciplines..."
> 
> The project includes mass drivers built inside mountains for space launch
> (assisted by laser boost), and floating cites to provide power and capital.
>  I just read a good description of a tailored vacc suit.
> 
> It has an extensive bibliography and footnotes.
> 
> So far it looks a like a good reference for those who like science in there
> SF games.
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
>                http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
> Been there.  Done that.  Bought the t-shirt. Wore it home.  Wore it out.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #439
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Traveller-digest         Friday, 20 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 440

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller for Macs, Windows, OS/2, Unix & other!
         2. Re: Tom Ellis re:Platform Wars
         3. Re: Stu's Rant
         4. Re: Just give me the pink slip!
         5. Re: An irreverent look at Bar Encounters 
         6. TAS Membership for Scouts
         7. unsubscribe
         8. QSDS problems...
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #422
        10. Re: Gravity
        11. Re: a book for gear-heads
        12. Re: Traveller with Macs
        13. Re: High Tech Warfare (LONG!)
        14. RE: Kiwis
        15. Traveller Songs
        16. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #429
        17. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #430

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:12:04 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller for Macs, Windows, OS/2, Unix & other!

At 10:33 PM 9/19/96 -0500, you wrote:

>And I'm speaking up for the OS/2 people.  <g> We can read all your DOS/Win
>stuff already so we don't say much.  I'm in favor of
>something generic that we all can use.  Let's not leave any of us out.
>
>HTML and the Acrobat formata are available across most platforms out here. 
>Acrobat has a number of advantages, but the readers are large and the price
>of the software to create the documents is kind of high.  HTML isn't as
>flexible and the browsers we'd use to read it aren't all that hot yet, but
>it's essentually free both to create and to read.

Actually, I couldn't agree with you more.  If it wasn't for the fact I have so 
much invested in Windows products I would be using OS/2 now.  Heck, we have 
even trained are dogs to bark when they hear Bill Gates or the word 
Micosoft.  I just couldn't pass up the chance to tease the Macintosh people. 
<Grin>

Maybe, I missed the point of this CD.  I thought it was going to be a 
collection of software.  Heck, if they want it in Acrobat format they can 
send it to me at I will convert it.

Regards,

Matthew Mactyre
mmactyre@concentric.net
http://www.cris.com/~mmactyre/
PGP public key available on request


------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:25:34 -0700
Subject: Re: Tom Ellis re:Platform Wars

At 08:46 AM 9/20/96 -0400, you wrote:

>> Tom, this isn't a jyhad (at least not for me).  I simply don't have, nor 
>> do I have any desire to own, a PC, and so approached the designers of the 
>> Traveller suite concerning the possibility of getting a Mac version done. 
>>  I was told that they would be interested in doing so if they knew the 
>> user base was large enough.
>> 
>> Ergo, we are making ourselves known.  No more, no less.  You'd do the 
>> same if a bit of software wasn't coming out for your platform. . .

>(humor mode on)
>Maybe the Linux, Mac, and OS/2 users on the list should band together and
>toss the Windoze crowd out the airlock?
>(humor mode off).

Actually, I never intended it to turn into an argument.  I started out as a
Mac user, and my wife wants to counted among the Macintosh users.

Matthew Mactyre
mmactyre@concentric.net
http://www.cris.com/~mmactyre/
PGP public key available on request


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:26:45 -0800
Subject: Re: Stu's Rant

On 19 Sep 96 at 15:33, Leonard Erickson spewed:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > I thought I would make a random bar encounter table since PCs
> > spend so much time there, we might as well streamline that part of
> > the adventure.
> >
> > hmmm...
> > Random Bar Encounter Table (1d6)
> > 1. player gets drunk.
> > 2. player gets drunk and passes out.
> > 3. player gets drunk, pukes, and passes out.
> > 4. player gets drunk, passes out, and player's wallet gets swiped.
> > 5. player gets lucky 6. player gets drunk and lucky.
> 
> 7. player gets lucky *and* gets new kind of VD
> 8. player gets drunk, and wakes up with a partner that he's not
>    even sure of the *species* of, much less the sex.

:-)

ROFL on this 1, Leonard...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:38:28 -0700
Subject: Re: Just give me the pink slip!

On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)said:

>In mail you write:
>
>>> The Free Trader isn't free, because the character actually owns the ship
>>> (well, he owns the mortgage anyway[G]). 
>>
>> Once again, just watch them try and collect the payments. Call it 
>> organic adventure material. In the words of Lenny Bruce: "Screw 'em. 
>> They can afford it!"
>
>If you can skip, they can send a Repo Man (or *team*) after you.

In the TNE game I'm currently in, we are the Repo team.  I play Eneri
"Pudding" Goldblum, the team attorney.  (don't laugh.. his contacts and
liason skill have helped out more times than we can count).  We make a very
comfortable living tracking down skiping starships and other valuable items.
Right now, I'm defending a Virus infected free-trader which simply wants to
leave Regency space and get on with its life.. 

Repo teams will find you.  Especially if you steal a Free Trader.. A little
money here, and favor there, and I'll have every downport worker on seven
worlds looking for you.


+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:39:14 -0400
Subject: Re: An irreverent look at Bar Encounters 

In our game's home-grown rule-set, we have a set of skills 
under the heading "Roistering."  These are Drinking/Drugging,
Gambling, and Erotics.  All characters get a small starting 
value in that last, unless they come from asexual species.
So far, however, no one has used them.  It's not that the PCs
are particularly straight-laced, but all we seem to do in bars
(when we visit them) is buy an ale/beer/local-equivalent and 
listen to local rumors.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:45:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: TAS Membership for Scouts

Lan, I think the idea is that the TAS is a kind of "snooty" society which
looks generally for people in what it considers "noble" professions.
(That's what the blackball business is all about: People saying "Oh no, I
don't think they're _our_ kind of people").  

So Navy people, being the hobnobbers that they are, are a shoo-in, as are
the officers of the elite military (notice that "common" military types in
the Army can't get membership).  Agent and Rogues get in as part of a
cover (for those "Debonnaire Rogue" and James Bond types).  

Basically, Scouts don't get in because they very rarely travel in social
circles.  They're always off grubbing around in the dirt of unexplored
planets and doing other such "anti-social" things.

I know what you're thinking, though: Isn't this a club for "Travellers"?
Aren't scouts really good at that sort of thing?  It is true that they
are, but they aren't the kind of travellers who would need assistance most
of the time: they have their own ships and are pretty self-reliant.  The
TAS is for high class Travellers who want to get around without having to
get their feet wet.

This is all, of course IMO.
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>



------------------------------

From: Turhan Herder <herder@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:49:28 -0400
Subject: unsubscribe

traveller unsubscribe herder@ix.netcom.com

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:58:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: QSDS problems...

Hi, it's me again, the High Guard guy.

I posted this message before, but I didn't see it here; so I'm trying
again. Sorry if it got through and I just missed it!

I'm writing in with some more gripes about the QSDS system as it
appeared in T4. These are things about it that I don't really
understand, and I think they are probably errors.

1) In the section on breaking away, on p. 117, the text says that in
order to jump you need twice as many energy points as the jump number of
the jump you're attempting. If you can summon the points in one turn,
you can jump in one turn. If you can summon them in two turns, you can
jump in two turns. If you can't summon them in two turns, then you
"cannot jump at all."

But in the standard designs shown on pp 100-104, we see ships that
cannot jump at all; their power plant rating is smaller than their jump
number! For instance, the Far Trader has a jump of 2 and a power plant
of 1! There is no way can generate 4 energy points in 2 turns.

This needs to be resolved somehow, preferably by increasing the power
plants of the starships.

2) When I try to duplicate the standard ship designs with QSDS, I run
into trouble with the economics. On p. 101 is an armed fighter that
costs (total) MCr 18. Yet when I look at the table of standard laser
batteries, I can't see anything for under MCr 27 for a laser battery
alone! (These weapons are /really/ pricey! Duplicating some of the old
CT adventures is gonna be real tough on the characters' pocketbooks.)

What's the deal here?

Similar problems exist for the gig, free trader, and safari ship.

Well, let me know what you think. I'm eager to hear fixes,
rationalizations, or explanations.

                  -Rob

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:59:34 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #422

On 19 Sep 96 at 18:04, Andrew Boulton spewed:

> Been there, done that. In a Shadowrun game I was in, we stormed a
> building full of Bad Guys(tm). Unfortunately, between our recon and
> the attack, someone had moved a bunch of nuns and a few dozen
> orphans into the building. Most've them were greasy stains by the
> time we'd discovered they weren't illusions, robots, or disguised
> villains...

How did they handle this afterwards?

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:25:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Gravity

Brad Urwiller <urwilron@ptw.com> writes:

> Gravity and Anti-Grav seem to come up frequently on this list (I don't mind,
> its good reading).  To send a few more monkey wrenches into the gears I
> wanted to bring your attention to another theory.  A guy named Stephen
> Goodfellow wrote an interesting paper about the effects of
> plasma/magneticfields on gravity.
>
> (www.oceonline.com/~sgoodf/nature/cgbi/index.html#4r)

Brad, please confirm this URL.  My Netscape says it's invalid.

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.  
   When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
                                 - Barry Asmus

------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:32:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: a book for gear-heads

Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca> writes:

> ISBN? Publisher? Cost?

Title: "The Millennial Project: Colonizing the Galaxy"
Author: Marshall T. Savage
Subject: Astronomy/Space Exploration
Publisher: Little Brown & Co.
ISBN: Unknown
Cost: $16.95 (trade paperback)

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.  
   When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
                                 - Barry Asmus

------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:51:32 MST7
Subject: Re: Traveller with Macs

2 here, too. Plus an old Apple II+ if that counts for anything other 
than being an inveterate packrat who won't throw anything out ;-)

	I vote for a cross-platform version, too.  But since it's going to 
be a compilation of all the stuff floating around, just stuff 
everything on there...after all, 670 Mb is a <lot> of space!

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:49:32 -0700
Subject: Re: High Tech Warfare (LONG!)

 "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au> said:

[On the use of Imperial Marines]

>You know where the Ine Givar base is? You don't really want that Ine Givar
>leader? Drop a few tons of ceramic Smartpellets onto the area from orbit
>and you have one collapsed base and a lot of hamburger. Who needs
>Marines?

Well, if you want to interrogate anyone, to try and shut down the local Ine
Givar, you really need to take prisoners and collect intellegence material.
Also, what if the Ine Givar leader slipped of to the corner store for a
six-pack before the impact?  While you try to figure out who was killed
through DNA testing, he's out there rallying the troops *and* cranking up
the press release about the heartless Imperial Navy, killing innocent civilans!

If you want to take prisoners, give the Marines flash/bang grenades and the
TL-15 equivilant of tear gas.  Have the grav APC hovering overhead using
passive sensors to track movement inside the base, and then hit them hard
and fast.  The sight of men in battledress, spraying the room with tranq
rounds from Gauss rifles, combined with the effects of the stun grenades and
gas, will take the fight out of anyone.  You now have prisoners who can
stand trial, an entire base for the kids at Naval Intellegence to take apart
in loving detail for hints about other Ine Givar activity, and since you did
this with mostly non-lethal weapons, good press for the Imperium.

If this is a decapitation raid, then the Marines carry plasma weapons and
Gauss rifles.  You still want the intel from this base intact, so the only
major difference is the substitution of lethal force for the more restrained
capture option.

[On handleing guerilla situations]

>How badly do you want to teach these guerillas/bandits an "object lesson"?
>If they have nothing that you really want, and are upsetting the things
>that you *do* want, well, just dump a load of ceramic smartrubble on the
>several square kays that they are passing through (from orbit, of course).
>Everything - and I mean *everything* - in the region affected no longer
>exists! Do this a few times and there aren't any more guerillas/bandits.
>Do you care if the (few) survivors hate your guts as long as they do
>nothing about it? Why would the imperium care if these sorts of actions
>got the results they wanted?

And if the guerrilas happen to occupy an inhabited area?  Or are operating
in a major city?

Your arguement reminds me of the Army Air Corps claim that it won WWII..
despite evidence that the massive bombings really prolonged the war. Even
today, the Air Force can't guarntee that it will hit a target more than 50%
of the time, and you are proposing striking small guerrila units with
orbital stikes?  the guerillas are *winning*, since they are tying down your
assets, and causing you to have to act in an overbearing manner.

Of course the Imperium gives a damn!  The Imperium isn't the absolute
dictatorship you seem to see it as, it is responsible to the Nobility, and
to its citizens.  I cannot see that many Admirals who would be willing to
carry out orders that amounted to unrestricted warfare against civilans.
(Even in the Rebellion, it took years for the major powers to get that
desperate, and I imagine that quite a few of Lucan's Flag Officers were
executed for refusal to obey those orders.)

[On the need to invade a planet]

>Say I'm a TL15 Marine Officer and I have a mission to take and hold a
>particular planet and certain installations and cities on its surface
>(and, probably, above it - if it's of a high enough TL). The Planetary
>Army (and any armed civilians) are, understandably, not enamoured of these
>ideas and decide to resisrt. Say that they are TL7.

>OK. What do I do? Well, first of all, I check my intelligence and
>determine the site of all major (and minor) military bases through
>intelligence assets - humint or techint ... and the latter is going to be
>so sophisticated that the defenders probably won't even know its being
>done. Then, well, I *have* space superiority (maybe they can put up a few
>Shuttle equivalents with chemical rockets, and a few Killersats with nukes
>or primitive lasers ... but I brush them aside with my TL/15 Close Escorts
>or Destrotyers).

Okay, quick test:  name the four US Navy bases that house ballistic missle
subs.  Hint:  two of them are so secret the President doesn't know where
they are!  We only know that there are four because of a leaked budget
report, and that could have been disinformation.

Your comment about tech superiority makes me smile and remember the parades
we had on Vietnam Victory Day, after our technologicaly superior force, with
almost uncontested air superiority, defeated the Viet Cong and their North
Vietnamese allies..

>So, what can I do -- well, under Striker (or Striker II), Mercenary, or
>any iteration of Traveller, I have to go in and refight WW2 with tanks and
>APCs. Sure, they have fusion weapons and tacnuke missiles, but it *still*
>leaves open the *remote* possibility that I might take casualties from a
>sufficiently ingenious enemy ... probably more by bad luck than anything
>else. But why should I have to?

Because the war isn't over until you *occupy* the enemy's territory.

>The defenders *have* to mass their forces, because of their relatively
>shitty tech, in order to mass the firepower to have any chance of
>resistance. Great! From orbit, a couple of bundles of smart "crowbars" ...
>aerodynamically shaped chunks of ceramics or, perhaps, even steel or
>tungsten ... are targetted against point targets as small as enemy
>armoured vehicles, trucks, heavy weapon and artillery positions, not to
>mention the pitiful ICBM equivalents that could be retargeted (in theory)
>against my spacecraft. Within minutes a time on target bombardment
>destroys them all ... the enemy has no ECM that can degrade my sensors
>and, if I choose, I can use TL14 (or even TL13, even TL12) "mature"
>technology to ensure reliability rather than relatively "unreliable" but
>"cutting edge" TL15 tech. He probably doesn't even have any warning. To
>take care of the troops, well, equally "smart" clouds of ceramic "rubble"
>are targetted against their deployment areas and, to put it bluntly,
>pulverise everything within their area of effect down to several meters.
>No-one and nothing within these areas survive.

No. I, as the defending commander, scatter my forces, hiding everything I
can, put my equivilant of Special Forces into area that are likely to be
landing/occupation zones to organize resistence.  My armies blend into the
civilan population, with orders to wait for the word to come down.

I'm not going to give you much to shoot at.  Except of coure for the vehicle
parks filled with my outdated and shop worn vehicles, EM noise makers that
sound like headquarters radio traffic, and a few token PDM launches.. Yep
we're real helpless down here..

>Having destroyed all the *regular* forces, I *could* move in and -
>perhaps, barely - take losses from enraged civilians. OK, so what do I do
>then? Well, I take out certain key power distribution nodes (not the
>generators, just the transmission lines and the like) and leave all the
>major towns and cities in the dark. Transport choke points such as
>bridges, mountain passes, highway overpasses and the like are also
>destroyed or "neutralised". All this could well happen simultaneously with
>the initial strike. This would be a *major* inconvenience for the
>defenders civilians - do they really want to starve and freeze/swelter in
>the dark? I could ensure that they do without ever setting foot on the
>planetary surface!

And I get on my radio and order my troops out to start repairs.  I have a
planet.  You have a starship.  Let's see who runs out of spare parts first.

I think you underestimate the spirit of the people involved.. my father
survived the Blitz, and he stands a little taller when he talks about how
England came together as one during those days. People are going to get by,
they have in the past, and they will through this.

>At this point, I simply demand their surrender. What can they do to
>resist? Damn all.

Say "Nuts!"  The mission statement you mentioned above says the following:

">I have a mission to take and hold a
>particular planet and certain installations and cities on its surface"

>Do I need to garrison the planetary surface? Nope. Simply designate a
>government down there to be in charge and let *them* do my dirty work. If
>things get too dicey for them to control, further salutary measures
>against the civilian population can be taken as needed - all causing
>minimal *direct* casualties - but threatening to blow them back to the
>stone age if they don't co-operate.

So you've set up you Vichy government, and still there is insurgent
activity.  Your puppets are screaming for help... And you massacre civilans.
Congrats!  You now have government troops defecting to the partisans, and
your own puppets might be looking for a way to backstab you. If you keep
issuing orders from on high without any support, you will be ignored. 

>And this assumes that there is something down there that I *really* need.
>If there isn't, well, all bets are off!

Ah.  Genocide.  Why waste the assets?  Just ignore the world, refuel at the
Gas Giant, and leave.

[On the Battle Dress vs. Horde o' TL-0 spear carriers]

>Actually, the guy in Battle Dress would kill hundreds, if not thousands,
>with available ammo and then simply retreat, using the Grav Belt built
>into his augmented BD! He could keep doing this again and again as long as
>ammo resupply could be arranged. The guys with the spears simply couldn't
>touch him. Sure, he'd be one tired bugger by the time he'd killed them all
>(assuming they didn't break and run first - which they would), but, with
>even minimal sense (and a lot of ammo) there's nothing they could do!

You know, somebody once figured out that for every 250,000 rounds of rifle
and machinegun fire directed at aircraft from the ground in WWII, one plane
was destroyed.  there were a large number of planes shot down by ground fire
during that war.  All it take is *one* spear in the *right* place.. and the
battledress equipped trooper is in trouble.  Or better yet, use longbows..
and get him in the back of the knee, or right in the visor slit, or under
the arm while the arm is raised..  throw a net over the guy, trick him into
chasing you into a trap where you can drop a 16-ton boulder on him.. Lo-tech
does not equate with stupid.  Ask the US Cavalry or the British veterans of
The Boer War about that.

As for the spear carriers breaking and running.. please read the history of
the battles of Saipan, Tarawa, and Okinawa during WWII.

Sorry about the length of this.. I felt it was better to take this all in
one post, rather than several.





+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:09:05 MST7
Subject: RE: Kiwis

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>

>Strangely enough in the Vlaahurg tongue the word Kiwi is the most
>vicious of insults imaginable and has been the cause of more horrible
>and bloody interstellar wars than anything else in the history of
>creation.

	Said wars, of course, fought on the hallowed Crikit field of battle 
;->

New addendum to the Traveller Drinking Game:

Gratuitious reference to any work by Douglas Adams: 2 Drinks 

Request by player that said drinks be Pan-Galactic Gargleblasters : 4
more drinks...maybe if we get 'em blotto enough they'll stop saying
'Don't Panic' in a warm friendly voice.

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 20 Sep 1996 17:47:27 GMT
Subject: Traveller Songs

Because of my server crash, I've lost most of the songs people posted here.

Could some kind soul email me copies, or send me an URL where I can read them
again?

Thanks.

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 18:03 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #429

In-Reply-To: <9609182145.AA16105@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Weird places to game...

> >Weird places to game over the years...
> 
> 5:  In the same room as two women having sex.

Err... could you reiterate on #5? >>

...and can I join your group? :-)

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 18:04 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #430

In-Reply-To: <9609190036.AA16398@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< Thank you, Allen!!!

Now, just do _Hivers_ sing the song?  :) >>

Same way they do everything else: they get someone else to do it for 
them.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #440
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Traveller-digest         Friday, 20 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 441

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #429
         2. Re: TAS Membership for Scouts
         3. Re: Why the Vilani Imperium Fell
         4. Re: Dawn and Established History
         5. News flash
         6. Re: High Tech Warfare (LONG!)
         7. [none]
         8. Re: Traveller suite
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #439
        10. Joke
        11. Re: How does your game taste?
        12. Re: TAS
        13. Re: TAS Membership for Scouts
        14. Some strange ides regarding T4
        15. Re: The Marvelous Mutating Core Subsector
        16. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #432
        17. Re: [T96#430] Filk
        18. Hey, some of this is great stuff!
        19. Re: HTML for Traveller suite
        20. Re: Tom Ellis re:Platform Wars
        21. Re: Traveller for Macs, Windows, OS/2, Unix & other!
        22. Traveller Suite Availability
        23. Re: Traveller for Macs, Windows, OS/2, Unix & other!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 18:03 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #429

In-Reply-To: <9609182145.AA16105@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Weird places to game...

> >Weird places to game over the years...
> 
> 5:  In the same room as two women having sex.

Err... could you reiterate on #5? >>

...and can I join your group? :-)

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:15:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: TAS Membership for Scouts

On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Charles Collin wrote:

> Lan, I think the idea is that the TAS is a kind of "snooty" society which
> looks generally for people in what it considers "noble" professions.
> (That's what the blackball business is all about: People saying "Oh no, I
> don't think they're _our_ kind of people").  
[snip]
> I know what you're thinking, though: Isn't this a club for "Travellers"?
> Aren't scouts really good at that sort of thing?  It is true that they
> are, but they aren't the kind of travellers who would need assistance most
> of the time: they have their own ships and are pretty self-reliant.  The
> TAS is for high class Travellers who want to get around without having to
> get their feet wet.

That all makes sense to me.  It's a good rationalization.  :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Robert Ellis <re2@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:17:24 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: Why the Vilani Imperium Fell

On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:

> 
> On 20 Sep 1996, Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> > >A gallon is just over 8 lbs., now enough of this off topicness AND LOOK IT
> > >UP IT YOU DON"T BELIEVE IT. ;)
> > 
> > Tom Ellis is obviously a Vilani.  Notice the appeal to written authority.   A
> > _true_ Solomani would have weighed a gallon of water and reported the
> > results.   :-)
> 
> 
> How dare you! (waves his FGMP-15 threatingingly). I'll have you know that
> the name Ellis in my case dates back to the Solomani Middle Eastern name
> "Elias", and was first changed when an ancestor of mine landed on an
> island in what was the United States, and island also named Ellis. 
> 
> Vilani!*spit* I'll give you Vilani, why I outta..... ;)
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > I will note that the Imperial gallon is nearly 20% larger than the American
> > gallon, so that a gallon weighs nearly 10lbs in those Commonwealth countries
> > that still use Imperial, not metric measures.
> > 
> > Parenthetically, historically there have been many different sizes of gallon,
> > depending on what was being measured.  The American gallon was actually a
> > standard British wine gallon, adopted during the American Rebellion. 
> > Opinions differ on whether this was because they had more wine measures in
> > the colonies, or because the colonial merchants could make more money (rather
> > like the cereal company slightly shrinking the weight of a package of corn
> > flakes).
> > 
> 
> 
 I think you got the wrong person you're looking for so recheck your 
email adress and stop emailing me thanks!
  re2


------------------------------

From: Robert Ellis <re2@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:20:07 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: Dawn and Established History

On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Michael Koehne wrote:

> Moin Hal Carmer,
> 
> > Much as I hate to say this, but it almost sounds like you have a brother
> > named Chekov who constantly stated that <insert item here> was invented in
> > Russia, or that <insert quote here> was coined in Russia, or that <insert
> > famous inventor> was born in Russia.  Of course, this could be something
> > that happens in Scotland as well, for was it not the famous Engineer
> > Scotty who once said "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on
> > me"?   <grin>
> 
> 	I dont think that this is cannon, the first solomanies had
> 	different languages. Now 1202 Galanglic, which is based on
> 	Solomany American English, is the only Solomany language
> 	spoken in the charted space. (Ok there are the islands in
> 	the riff, where french, russian, and german is still spoken
> 	on some worlds ;-)
> 
> 	So I would always, think that names who sound solomany
> 	are very likely to have solomany origin. And exspecialy
> 	that names who sound solomany, but not Galanglic should
> 	be dated back to the first solomany expansion.
> 
> 	BTW does anybody have an english Kinunir, and can tell
> 	me if "Allgemeine Raumschiffwerfen" is the original name
> 	or a !BAD! translation ?
> 
> By Michael
> -- 
> " ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "
> 
>   Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
>   Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de
> 
 I don't know who you're looking for but I think you have the wrong 
adress so recheck it and stop mailing this information to me, thanks.
 re2


------------------------------

From: Robert Ellis <re2@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:22:26 +0100 (BST)
Subject: News flash

  You are giving my adress as you email receiver box so please work out 
the problem so that I stop receiving all your repliers. thanks
  re2

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:43:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: High Tech Warfare (LONG!)

Douglas E. Berry wrote a long and excellent post on high tech warfare, and
I just wanted to give him a virtual standing ovation right here.

Great post Doug.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 



------------------------------

From: Andrew Whincup <9506636w@student.gla.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 19:22:54 +0000
Subject: [none]

unsibscribe traveller 9506636w@student.gla.ac.uk
Andrew_whincup<9506636w@student.gla.ac.uk

------------------------------

From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:33:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller suite

Hello!
 
	Hey don't forget us Amiga fanatics here!  I've done my share
of Amiga ports/new utilities for Traveller on the Amiga but a new
suite would be nice. :)
 
	One project that might be interesting and feasible with some
cooperation would be a CD-Rom version of the TML archive (all the old
X-boats and everything) in HTML + 9660 format. People on the list
could be assigned a subject, get all the relevant info from the
archives (all the old posts), concatenate/rewrite them into a few
large but complete articles (possibly articles supporting opposing
views) and someone with a master index would create the hypertext
links between all articles.

	Of course nobody would make any money but that's not the
point. :)  *I* would be willing to pay 20$ for up-to-date, edited,
paginated rewrites of the sum of the mailing list. :)


- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
	Independentist: My Canada excludes the federal bureaucracy :)
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)

------------------------------

From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 15:06:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #439

>(humor mode on)
>Maybe the Linux, Mac, and OS/2 users on the list should band together and
>toss the Windoze crowd out the airlock?
>(humor mode off).

Actually, that might be a good idea.  And if we get Darroch working for 
us, he could no doubt find a way to then space the fools using Linux and 
OS/2 right after them!

_Then_ we'd see some fun!

(Oh, and we promise not to space the programmers!  We need them!)

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:05:39 -0400
Subject: Joke

> >  >  > 
> I think you got the wrong person you're looking for so recheck your 
>email adress and stop emailing me thanks!
>  re2

It looks to me like someone might have played some kind of joke on you by
subscribing you to a mailing list. I'm a member of the mailing list you've
been sending messages like the one above to, not an administrator of the
list, so I can't tell for sure. But you've been replying with messages like
the one above all afternoon, so I'm pretty sure all of the messages you've
been receiving are messages posted to the mailing list.

You can unsubscribe from the list by sending mail to
majordomo@mpgn.com and putting these words in the body of the
message:

unsubscribe traveller

Hope this helps!

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:29:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: How does your game taste?

On Sat, 14 Sep 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:
> Answers to my question about types of characters prompted me to ask another 
> question.  I provide multiple choice answers to facilitate discussion.  
> Hopefully you will elaborate beyond the mere answer provided.  Please give 
> anecdotes, I think I'm speaking for many of us when I say that I enjoy hearing 
> tales of your characters/adventures!  :-)>

   I'm a little delayed answering this, but what the heck - better late
than never! =8->

> 1)  What "style" or "flavor" of Traveller play do you participate in?
> 
> a) FREE-WHEELING: A campaign where PCs wander about in search of adventure, 
> often setting their own goals and objectives in spite of various rumors and 
> encounters by the referee.

   Like others here, this is a style I prfer unfortunately the players are
pretty demanding in that they expect the GM to do everything for
them...and, as always, the players NEVER do what you expect them to.

   I tend to write up the general parameters of the scenario, along with
important NPCs (assuming the Players will totally trash any plans I make
for the adventure) and free associate the adventure from there -
frequently free-associating when I get particularly well derailed.

   One of my most memorable adventures _was_ a "story telling" adventure
GMed by a sociologist who was fascinated by RPGs and the people who played
them. He was an s/f writer and fan who knew next to nothing about gaming,
and relied on the players (3 students, and me) to keep him abreast of the
rules.

   I had a character called Saavik (No, I didn't generate or name this
character - the GM was also a Trekkie) who was a "General Systems
Specialist" and I soon parlayed this character into the position of being
the most adaptable and shrewd character in the group. Another character
was a Psionically active feline named (I kid you not) Gar F. Eild. 

  For a short time we also had a military character nick-named "Ironteeth"
that was (among other things) Homophobic and very violent. One time we
went into a "grotty" bar for info and Ironteeth was, err, "accosted" by a
male prostitute. As the GM put it, "At the prostitutes funeral..." ;)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 16:48:04 -0500
Subject: Re: TAS

I kind of look like the TAS as being similar to the Victorian-era 
Geographic Society (which, I believe, exists today as National 
Geographic).

Take from that what you will, it's 5pm Friday and my fingers are tired. . 
.  [grin]

------------------------------

From: Lan Kelly <CyberWere@ConnectI.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:10:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: TAS Membership for Scouts

9/20/96, Charles Collin wrote:
>Lan, I think the idea is that the TAS is a kind of "snooty" society which
>looks generally for people in what it considers "noble" professions.
>(That's what the blackball business is all about: People saying "Oh no, I
>don't think they're _our_ kind of people").  
>
>So Navy people, being the hobnobbers that they are, are a shoo-in, as are
>the officers of the elite military (notice that "common" military types in
>the Army can't get membership).  Agent and Rogues get in as part of a
>cover (for those "Debonnaire Rogue" and James Bond types).  
>
>Basically, Scouts don't get in because they very rarely travel in social
>circles.  They're always off grubbing around in the dirt of unexplored
>planets and doing other such "anti-social" things.
>
>I know what you're thinking, though: Isn't this a club for "Travellers"?
>Aren't scouts really good at that sort of thing?  It is true that they
>are, but they aren't the kind of travellers who would need assistance most
>of the time: they have their own ships and are pretty self-reliant.  The
>TAS is for high class Travellers who want to get around without having to
>get their feet wet.
>
>This is all, of course IMO.
>Charles.

Interesting thoughts.  I guess this is as good a reason as any :-), just
really hadn't though of the TAS as snooty.  Must be a Traveller version of
the "Adventurer's Club".

LAN


Lan Kelly       CyberWere@ ConnectI.com      San Antonio, Texas
***********
"Diplomats are just as essential in starting a war as soldiers are in
finishing it."
Will Rogers


------------------------------

From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:21:21 -0700
Subject: Some strange ides regarding T4

My dear lady, who has a twisted mind, came up with the
following "news release" last night....

[Wisconsin]
The new Traveller game is finally out.  It's called
Marc Miller's Traveller.  Since it's the fourth edition
it's also called T4.  Unfortunately, this means that you 
can't use any of the previous source materials with it
because role playing AIDS attacks T4 cells.  We do have
unconfirmed reports that the new Traveller Suite software
has anti-Virus components.

:)
Douglas

------------------------------

From: bborich@gnn.com ()
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:44:18
Subject: Re: The Marvelous Mutating Core Subsector

    Offhand, the way I see it right now it took GDW to lose the 3rd 
Imperium, but it took Marc Miller to lose the stars    :)

    Personally though, Marc's idea of regressing to the beginning 
was probably a better idea in some respects than the fall by Virus, 
but I see no reason that the star locations at least could have 
been kept the same. And one could always lose stars off the map one 
doesn't like (which has happened now and than by accident).



------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 18:26:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #432

T::>When was Sternmetal Horizons formed?

 Well, one of the companies that participated in the megamerger
 that formed it can be documented to have existed at least as
 far back as Terran Dating AD1995 (predating the Terran
 Confederation), in Mount Vernon, NY, USA, North America - my
 train home every day goes past a building with a large sign
 indicating that it is/was the Stern Metals Co.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Press <CTRL>-<ALT>-<DEL> to continue ...


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 18:26:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#430] Filk

 ::>> Then there's the filk I came up with shortly after TNE came out:
 ::>>
 ::>> "Deyo!  Deyyyyo...
 ::>>  Virus come and it wrecka my home
 ::>>  Deyo!  Deyyyyo...
 ::>>  Virus come and it wrecka my home.
 ::>>
 ::>>  Lucan an Strephon and Dulinor, ho!
 ::>>  Virus come and it wrecka my home
 ::>>  Civil war 'cross the Imperium, ho!
 ::>>  Virus come and it wrecka my home.
 ::>>
 ::>>  Hey, Mister Hiver mon,
 ::>>  Tell me what to do now
 ::>>  Virus come and it wrecka my home
 ::>>  ..."

T::>NICE!!! Given that the Virus and the Deyo circuits are related, this has a nice
 ::>ironic
 ::>ring to it.

 Not to mention that in the sidebar about the Deyo chip, one of
 The Chips, when asked about the significance of "Deyo" _did_
 reply with the next line of the song...

 My coworkers have been wondering why I have been giggling for
 no apparent reason for the past few days...

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ "Positive thinking" ... leads to miscalculation.


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 18:26:00 -0500
Subject: Hey, some of this is great stuff!

  Y'know, I've been sitting here enjoying the TML quite a bit
  more lately - the filk is wonderful, and some of the "skewed"
  topics (bar names, bar activity tables, etc.) are quite
  imaginative.

  C'MON PEOPLE, I _DID_ ASK!

  I don't _want_ to just peel stuff right out of the TML; most
  of it requires some contextual material that is spread over
  several digests, and the authors may not want to see it in
  publication in that form. Not to mention that my digests get
  broken up by my mail-to-BBS system, and I sometimes get them
  in my inbox out of order.

  Please, folks, stick (or should that be "schtick"?) some of
  this stuff into email to me at jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com
  so I can find a place for it in Freelance Traveller.  Really,
  I _will_ manage to find a place. I _like_ this stuff, and _no_
  magazine can expect to be a success without a "lighter side".

  The Freelance Traveller guarantee is that the Editor reads
  every submission personally.  If he likes it, and feels that
  it wouldn't offend a reasonable sophont, he'll find a way to
  publish it.  No exclusivity required.  We acknowledge authors,
  and will include appropriate copyright notices when requested.
  You have nothing to lose, except enough time to write it up,
  and the price of an email stamp.

  Oh, by the way - we _do_ also take serious articles.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Parents like stupid things.


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 17:08:03 -0500
Subject: Re: HTML for Traveller suite

On 09/20/96 at 08:16 AM,  Ross Coburn <ross@odyssee.net> said:

>Eris, I'm not entirely certain here, but I think what the Traveller suite 
>is is a collection of applications, not simply documents to be read.  If 
>this is the case, Acrobat et al are pretty useless.

You could be right, but I thought the suite included on-line
documentation, data files, spreadsheet files, graphics (like deck plans),
as well as programs.  If I'm right a lot of the stuff could be
cross-platform and *new* programs could take multiple platforms into
account.  

You said something about speaking up if software wasn't coming out for your
chosen platform, right?  Well, I use OS/2, others use AmigaOS or some *nix.
I'm just trying to speak up for us.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 17:19:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Tom Ellis re:Platform Wars

On 09/20/96 at 08:46 AM,  Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com> said:

>It isn't, I run OS/2. I happen to be able to run some other platforms on
>this more flaxible than any other OS, but nobody is breaking down doors
>with OS/2 Traveller software.

Well, I'm not breaking down doors, but I *am* working on Traveller software
using the Sybil (the OS/2 Delphi clone) beta.  Sybil claims it will be able
to cross-compile for Win32 and OS/2 when it's
released too.

I'd *really* rather stay with Pascal (Sybil/Delphi), but Java is looking
better and better.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 17:13:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller for Macs, Windows, OS/2, Unix & other!

On 09/20/96 at 08:33 AM,  Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com> said:

>Hear hear! I am running the Merlin (OS/2 4.0) beta myself, and would love
>to see some generic cross platform stuff, that's why I suggested java, it
>comes as part of the OS with Merlin.

Drat you, Tom Ellis!  You got into the Merlin beta program and I didn't!
;->

I'll be putting Merlin on my machines at home as soon as it comes out, and
the Java support is one of the big reasons.  I much prefer Pascal to Java
as a programming language, but for cross-platform development it's probably
the way to go, so I'll have to grab Visual Builder for Java or Latte or
something and start bashing with a new language.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 17:43:04 -0500
Subject: Traveller Suite Availability

On 09/20/96 at 03:16 PM, 
Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com> said:

>Greetings to Mac, Linux, Unix, Atari, Amiga, Sinclair Spectrum, and of
>course, Windows users...

"<Sigh!> Left off the list again.", I say sadly with a tear in my eye. ;->

You work for Lotus and Lotus is owned by IBM, so you should be, at least,
vaguely familar with OS/2.  ;->

>      "Project Dulinor" is the code name of the effort being conducted to
>bring a Suite of software for support of Traveller-4 referees and players
>to market.

So, I was wrong?  You're not talking data files, on-line docs, graphics,
etc?  You're talking about a suite of executables only?

>      Due to market demands the Traveller Suite of software is being
>developed with Windows 3.1, 3.11, NT and 95 as the primary release
>platform.  

As long as it'll run in WinOS2 I'll be satisfied, but I'm afraid our Mac
friends and Amiga buddies won't.  Here's hoping you *are* able to make
versions for us all.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 17:02:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller for Macs, Windows, OS/2, Unix & other!

On 09/20/96 at 08:12 AM,  Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net> said:

>>And I'm speaking up for the OS/2 people.  <g> We can read all your DOS/Win

>Actually, I couldn't agree with you more.  If it wasn't for the fact I
>have so  much invested in Windows products I would be using OS/2 now. 
>Heck, we have  even trained are dogs to bark when they hear Bill Gates or
>the word  Micosoft.  I just couldn't pass up the chance to tease the
>Macintosh people.  <Grin>

I'm pretty comfortable using my Windows products under OS/2.  The startup
is a little slower, but they all run fine.  Of course, the Windows stuff
still gpf's all the time <g>, but at least they *ususlly* don't take the
whole system down.

>Maybe, I missed the point of this CD.  I thought it was going to be a 
>collection of software.  Heck, if they want it in Acrobat format they can 
>send it to me at I will convert it.

Maybe, *I* misunderstood.  I thought Jo was talking about a whole range of
items from data files, to documents, to programs.  If the programs were
already in existance then they wouldn't be
cross-platform..probably, but the rest could be.  

I'll contribute OS/2 and Windows versions of the Traveller Dice Roller
program I've already done if anyone is interested.  Sorry, Mac, Unix, and
Amiga buddies I don't have versions for you..yet. If I had a
Delphi/Sybil/RAD developer that handled JAVA I would though.  <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #441
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Traveller-digest        Saturday, 21 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 442

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
         2. Re: Tom Ellis re:Platform Wars
         3. Re: High Tech Warfare
         4. Re: Traveller for Macs, Windows, OS/2, Unix & other!
         5. Re: Tom Ellis re:Platform Wars
         6. Re: Weird places to game...
         7. Webpage
         8. The Long Night and Technology
         9. RE:  I have seen the Hardback
        10. TAS income
        11. Re: TAS income
        12. Re: QSDS problems (Td V96 #440)
        13. Re: TAS income
        14. Gravity URL 
        15. Re: Webpages Filk and Lightbulb jokes.
        16. Gauss Pistols
        17. Re: Re: Oh no a Kiwi!
        18. Re: Oh no a Kiwi!
        19. Re: TAS Membership for Scouts
        20. Re: TAS Membership for Scouts
        21. Re: Boot polish revisited

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 17:45:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

On 09/20/96 at 06:42 PM,  Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au> said:

>If JAVA/Opendoc/HTML is used (Since Jo is working at Lotus, she will be 
>up to date on the stuff that Big Blue / Lotus / Apple are churning out in 
>this reguard), we can have a full blown product that is fully hypertexted 
>(all relevent terms hyperlinked, ie you press a planet name and see its 
>system stats and stellar map.), with JAVA/Opendoc character 
>generation/ship construction/planet design, that can be run on OS/2, 
>Apple, Unix (most flavors via netscape) Win3.1, WinNT, Win95, Dos (i
>think) whatever.

This was my thought too.  It might be too much to hope for, but what you
are describing is a *killer* product.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 19:33:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Tom Ellis re:Platform Wars

Sadly, while I have the tools and ability, I lack the time to do any
proper OS/2 traveller software. I do have some REXX scripts that I will
look into prettying up some and making available, but they are all CT, no
TNE or T4.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:38:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: High Tech Warfare

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:49:32 -0700
> 
[re: Orbital destruction of guerrilla bases]
> And if the guerrilas happen to occupy an inhabited area?  Or are operating
> in a major city?

That's the key distinction that all these discussions of high-tech 
warfare keep hitting:  There are two major categories of war, limited 
and total.  And their methods are *very* different.

In limited war, you concern yourself with collateral damage to civilans, 
refrain from using weapons of mass destruction, follow international 
conventions regarding treatment of prisoners, and so forth.  Most of 
these considerations are aimed at (a) maintaining the "moral high 
ground," that is, having your cause approved (or at least not actively 
opposed) by the wider community of nations; and (b) not tempting your 
opponent to escalate to use of total war against *you*.

In total war, the aim is absolute destruction of as much enemy 
population, equipment, and resources as possible, with no other 
constraint.

Needless to say, a force with space superiority engaded in total war 
against a planet wins, period.  Exclamation point.  See rock-dropping 
threads for details.

> Your arguement reminds me of the Army Air Corps claim that it won WWII..
> despite evidence that the massive bombings really prolonged the war.

In what sense?  Interesting, but I'd like to see the reasoning behind 
this statement.

> Even
> today, the Air Force can't guarntee that it will hit a target more than 50%
> of the time, and you are proposing striking small guerrila units with
> orbital stikes?  the guerillas are *winning*, since they are tying down your
> assets, and causing you to have to act in an overbearing manner.

As recent Gulf War revelations have shown, targeting isn't what it's
cracked up to be at TL8.  However, the 50% rate depends on the target. 
Ask the Air Force to shut down an airport, and they'll do it, no problem. 
Ask them to to turn a large command post to rubble, ditto.  Ask for a
precise hit on a mobile SCUD launcher the size of a moving van, things get
trickier. 

> [On the need to invade a planet]
> Your comment about tech superiority makes me smile and remember the parades
> we had on Vietnam Victory Day, after our technologicaly superior force, with
> almost uncontested air superiority, defeated the Viet Cong and their North
> Vietnamese allies..

Here was a classic example of one side (the US) waging a (very) limited 
war, while the other side (Viet Cong, NVKD) fought a total war.  If Hanoi 
had found a stray nuke, there's no doubt in my mind they'd have lobbed it 
into Saigon...or Los Angeles, given a delivery system.  Meanwhile, the US 
was hamstrung by massive restraint in type, quantity, and target of force 
applied.  Hence the low-tech win in this case.  If we'd been willing to 
aggressively bomb every factory, supply point, road and rail junction, 
and military camp in the North, we'd have won.  Easily.  Now, as for 
stopping it from all happening again the minute we pulled our troops out, 
that's a *very* different question...

> I think you underestimate the spirit of the people involved.. my father
> survived the Blitz, and he stands a little taller when he talks about how
> England came together as one during those days. People are going to get by,
> they have in the past, and they will through this.

See also the Jews under Roman occupation, the French under German 
occupation during WWII (which Doug alluded to), Plains Indians during the 
19th century, the Afghans during Soviet occupation...

There's a *lot* a low-tech, massively outgunned people can do to make life
utterly miserable for the occupying force.  And the more the occupiers
grind the people down, the more start joining the partisans. 

> >And this assumes that there is something down there that I *really* need.
> >If there isn't, well, all bets are off!
> 
> Ah.  Genocide.  Why waste the assets?  Just ignore the world, refuel at the
> Gas Giant, and leave.

Unless you're waging total war, and you want to deny the world's assets 
to the enemy.  In which case, shove a rock, or three, or a hundred.

> You know, somebody once figured out that for every 250,000 rounds of rifle
> and machinegun fire directed at aircraft from the ground in WWII, one plane
> was destroyed.  there were a large number of planes shot down by ground fire
> during that war.  All it take is *one* spear in the *right* place.. and the
> battledress equipped trooper is in trouble.

The Soviets pioneered a form of air defense called "The Golden BB."  Many 
of their client states had *very* low-tech air defense weapons, from 
badly outdated SAMs all the way down to machine guns.  The Golden BB 
approach involves *filling* the air above the target with bullets, 
missiles, AAA shells, *anything*...not even making much of an attempt to 
aim, just shooting up.  With 15 tuns of junk in the air, odds are that at 
least a few planes will run into some of it.  The Iraqis used this tactic 
during the initial raids on Baghdad during the Gulf War.  As it happened, 
they didn't peg any planes...but they *could* have.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Author of Orb: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/orbinfo.html
   |    Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 19:55:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller for Macs, Windows, OS/2, Unix & other!

I was guaranteed a beta copy, I didn't even apply to the program. I'm a
Certified OS/2 and LAN Server engineer as well as a Certified OS/2
Instructor. I work with IBM alot designing and implementing OS/2 based
computing solutions. Of course, my employer makes be do NT also, and I
like to work with Unix and its derivatives, but my first love will always
be OS/2.

Warped and Happy,

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 19:56:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Tom Ellis re:Platform Wars

That last message was really meant to be sent directly to Eris, sorry to
waste list bandwidth like that guys.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 



------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:28:36 -0700
Subject: Re: Weird places to game...

On Fri, 20 Sep 96, aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton) said:

><< From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
>> >Weird places to game over the years...
>> 
>> 5:  In the same room as two women having sex.
>Err... could you reiterate on #5? >>

>...and can I join your group? :-)

Depends.  My wife wants to know if you have a cute female to offer in the
bargain....

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:28:40 -0700
Subject: Webpage

Hey, folks.

Since the TML has taken a decidedly odd turn in the past few weeks, I've
decided not to try to compete with the webmasters around here.  Instead, I
am proud to announce:

TRAVELLER - The Silly Era

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/silytrav.htm

I am collecting filk, lightbulb jokes, stupid house rules, odd things you've
built using FF&S, and additions to the Traveller Drinking Game.

Do stop by and take a look; my wife has typed her fingers off coding this
thing, so she'd really appreciate the feedback.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
|   "Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric    |
|   flightless winged squirrel, coming       |
|   through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@netins.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 19:29:41 -0500
Subject: The Long Night and Technology

I got a couple questions - and I don't have my T4 book yet (when are
the hardcovers being shipped?) so I appologize if this has already been
answered with those rules...

1) What is the TL at Dawn - I've heard that it's TL 12, pre-13....

2) What WAS the TL before the long night? What I mean is - was
there a tech level "collapse" during the long night, like TNE had after
the Final War.

Andy Akins
igor@netins.net


------------------------------

From: SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:41:54 -0400
Subject: RE:  I have seen the Hardback

P.ENGEBOS sez:

"My Local Game Store got in three copies of the Hardback T4 today...."

Waitaminute!!  Is this the same T4 hardback that I was told at GenCon would
not be available through my gaming store so I had better order it from them
or it will be too late?!?

Pardon me for delurking in this way, but I feel, um, cheated, perhaps.
 Especially since I was intending to be the good little Traveller fan and
order through my local game store just to show the distributors that there
was interest out there.

So, Imperium, what gives?  And, to beat that horse again, when can we expect
to be receiving our hardbacks?

Niko
SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com

------------------------------

From: Lan Kelly <CyberWere@ConnectI.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:05:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: TAS income

Thanks for the previous TAS thoughts.
Now here's another question / thought.  

Given mustering out benefits are taken at the end of each career and go onto
the next.  Also TAS dividends provide a High passage every two months with a
value of Cr10,000.

Now the situation.

I was rolling up my first character he spent his first term in the Marines,
failed his continuance roll and got one roll on the Mustering out table.  I
roll a 6 on the Benefits Table and get TAS (of all things).  Now the
character is only 24 and going to continue in another career or more.  Does
he receive a High passage even during the creation time period.  Using
conservative figures you could sell a High passage for 25% of is face value
and have and income of Cr15,000 per year.  Over a 20 year career the
character can garner Cr300,000 in addition to any other benefits.

Any thoughts or comments?  This appears legal although unbalancing.  
LAN


Lan Kelly       CyberWere@ ConnectI.com      San Antonio, Texas
***********
"Diplomats are just as essential in starting a war as soldiers are in
finishing it."
Will Rogers


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:24:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TAS income

As a ref I'd probably rule that the TAS membership was not "officially"
bestowed until the final mustering out process was completed, i.e. when he
or she entered play.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 22:47:33 -0400
Subject: Re: QSDS problems (Td V96 #440)

Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
> Hi, it's me again, the High Guard guy.

Hi!  As the author of QSDS, I feel a bit of responsibility for the thing, so
I'll try to answer your questions ...

> I posted this message before, but I didn't see it here; so I'm trying
> again. Sorry if it got through and I just missed it!

Even if it did get through, I missed it, too (I sometimes read the TML with
'rm', if you know what I mean).

> 1) In the section on breaking away, on p. 117, the text says that in
> order to jump you need twice as many energy points as the jump number of
> the jump you're attempting.

I didn't write the combat rules; but I think that's a hold-over from High
Guard, and doesn't really mean much in T4.  Just as an (untested)
suggestion, allow the ship to jump as soon as it accumulates enough energy
(that is, as soon as Power Plant Number times Number of Turns Charging is
greater than or equal to twice the Jump Distance in parsecs).

> This needs to be resolved somehow, preferably by increasing the power
> plants of the starships.

The "power plant number" in QSDS/T4 is just a made-up thing that
more-or-less abstractly represents the size of the plant in relation to the
size of the ship.

> 2) [...]  On p. 101 is an armed fighter that costs (total) MCr 18. Yet
> when I look at the table of standard laser batteries, I can't see anything
> for under MCr 27 for a laser battery alone!

You're looking at the Military Laser Batteries.  For a cheaper weapon, take
a look at the Civilian Laser Batteries.  The main difference (other than
rate of fire), is that the "Military" batteries contain a large and
expensive Master Fire Director (expensive, complicated fire-control
equipment) that's probably a waste of space and money on the fighter.

> (These weapons are /really/ pricey! Duplicating some of the old
> CT adventures is gonna be real tough on the characters' pocketbooks.)

Again, take a look at the civilian weapons; they're not as nifty as the
military ones, but they're cheap (down in the low single digits) and they
still do damage.

> Similar problems exist for the gig, free trader, and safari ship.

As I recall, all of the starships are valid QSDS designs, done by one or
another of the members of the GDW-Beta list (thanks!); the small craft are
at best approximations ... the small craft and vehicle design system wasn't
written at that point.

> Well, let me know what you think. I'm eager to hear fixes,
> rationalizations, or explanations.

I'm hard at work on a definitive errata list (well, if truth be told, not
quite _that_ hard at work), and a revised and improved design system.  I'll
let people know when it's ready.  In the meantime, the current version (1.4)
is available on my web site: http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/qsds

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 23:01:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: TAS income

Hello Lan,
  Your question regarding income kinda smacks of GM judgement call.  Since
one person's answer regarding Muster Out Benefits indicates that it is
wise to roll the benefits as you muster out - your reasoning is sound.  On
the other hand, if you consider the lucky "captain" in the merchant
marines who gets receipt of a ship, the logic indicates otherwise.
Consider: how is it possible that all of the "captains" benefit rolls get
the +1 for having captancy rank?  More importantly, the Captain gets
enough rolls on the benefits chart that he could conceivably get more than
one "ship" benefit.
  In the end, despite the fact that this "mythical" captain gets multiple
chances at owning a ship despite the fact that he may have been a captain
for only one term, it is likely that the "storyline" of the captain isn't
that he got 4 chances at owning his own ship, but that he saved enough
money to get enough money massed together to pay for the ship.  Think of
the character as winning the planetary lottery, or perhaps the character
won the money gambling, and then invested it in a ship.  Perhaps the
character's great uncle died and left him the ship, plus a lot of debts
that must legally be paid off...
  Were it me, having to decide upon this, I would state that the TAS
benefit came at the end of the character's generation.  Why?  Aside from
the fact that it presents complications that were not envisioned in the
original game rules, you could easily rationalize that the military sat on
the decision to reward the player character by some lengthly amount of
time.  I suspect you have heard tales of medals awarded pothumously by
many years, or that a man charged with some specific crime in the military
has been proven to be right some 20 years ago, and that Congress has
finally recognized that fact after 30 years - awarding his survivors some
benefit...

Hal


------------------------------

From: Ronald Urwiller <urwilron@ptw.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:17:51 -0700
Subject: Gravity URL 

My apologies everyone.  The URL for the document about gravity inductions is at:

http://www.oeonline.com/~sgoodf/nature/cgbi/index.html#4r

Disregard the URL in my last message.  Sorry about that.  For any of you
that do peruse this page.  Let me know your thoughts on it.  (No, its not
mine but it's got possibilities galore in it).  Thanks


Brad Urwiller 
urwilron@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:23:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Webpages Filk and Lightbulb jokes.

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> Hey, folks.
> 
>Since the TML has taken a decidedly odd turn in the past few weeks, I've
>decided not to try to compete with the webmasters around here.  Instead, 
>I am proud to announce:
> 
> TRAVELLER - The Silly Era
> 
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/silytrav.htm
> 
>I am collecting filk, lightbulb jokes, stupid house rules, odd things 
>you've built using FF&S, and additions to the Traveller Drinking Game.
> 
>Do stop by and take a look; my wife has typed her fingers off coding 
>this thing, so she'd really appreciate the feedback.

I appreciate the work you're wife has gone to.  What were you doing?  
Goofing off no doubt while she slaved over a hot CPU.  8)

Derek Stanley

Tell us when you get the rest running.

------------------------------

From: Ronald Urwiller <urwilron@ptw.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:23:28 -0700
Subject: Gauss Pistols

In the TNE rulebook the Gauss Pistol is listed as having a high recoil
factor.  Anyone find this odd?  I mean,  I thought the whole idea behind
using a magnectic accelerator was to create a low recoil, silent weapon.
Also how come most guns that fire automatic can only fire SS with tranqs.
Any thoughts or answers would be appreciated.  

Brad Urwiller
urwilron@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: Andrew Gall <xtr12646701@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 16:23:29 +1200
Subject: Re: Re: Oh no a Kiwi!

At 03:12 PM 9/20/96 +1200, you wrote:
>>From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
>>Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:24:06 +1300
>>Subject: Traveller-digest mailing list
>>
>>Hey I just discovered that I am the only New Zealander registered to
>>this mailing list. Just thought I would share that.
>
>I don't think so Simon... But there aint that many of us.

And theres lurkers like myself :-)


------------------------------

From: Andrew Gall <xtr12646701@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 16:23:27 +1200
Subject: Re: Oh no a Kiwi!

At 09:06 PM 9/19/96 +0000, you wrote:
>Moin Hal Carmer,
>
>>   After seeing the phrase above, I had to slap myself to avoid reading
>> into the meaning "kiwi" what I originally knew it to be.  I assume "kiwi"
>> is a national word, much like Yank, Kraut, Limey, Frog, etc... mean.  
>
>	Kiwi is a national word. Its first the name of Newzeelands
>	nativs, and more known a name of the Kiwi fruit.
>
>	BTW did you know that the DDR was sold for 100 DM, a Banana
>	and a Kiwi ;-)
>

Its also the name of a small flightless bird, which is one of our national
emblems, and where the other two are derived from..


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 21:20:55 -0500
Subject: Re: TAS Membership for Scouts

On 09/20/96 at 12:15 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>> Lan, I think the idea is that the TAS is a kind of "snooty" society which
>> looks generally for people in what it considers "noble" professions.
>> (That's what the blackball business is all about: People saying "Oh no, I
>> don't think they're _our_ kind of people").  

>> I know what you're thinking, though: Isn't this a club for "Travellers"?

So, if you want to give Scouts a membership in TAS, do it.  It's not
especially hard to plug TAS into position 7.  Of course, you'll have to
decide when to let the character have the +1DM on her mustering out roll. 
The answer is to organize your scout service into ranks, they really *must*
have some sort of organizational structure after all.  <g> The structure
can be looser than the Navy's more like the Merchant service.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 21:28:21 -0500
Subject: Re: TAS Membership for Scouts

On 09/20/96 at 04:10 PM,  Lan Kelly <CyberWere@ConnectI.com> said:

>Interesting thoughts.  I guess this is as good a reason as any :-), just
>really hadn't though of the TAS as snooty.  Must be a Traveller version of
>the "Adventurer's Club".

TAS isn't a snooty club in my universe.  I've always made it
possible for all characters get a chance at TAS membership. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:53:06 +1300
Subject: Re: Boot polish revisited

> >An image of the Kiwi appears on the Australian boot polish  called Kiwi
> >boot polish that appeared before WW1 (I think).
> 
> Before WWI?  I'm not that old!  <g> I polished my good shoes with Kiwi
> brand shoe polish every Sunday morning while I was growing up.
> 
> Wait...yep, here's an old Kiwi can with the picture of the hairy little
> bird.  <G> Kiwi Brown, made by The Kiwi Polish Company, USA, Pottstown, PA!
> 

Yes, i Believe there has been a Kiwi Boot POlish Company in France for 
some years also. I understand that the origin of the Kiwi Boot Polish is 
Australian. I understand that its use spread during the two world wars 
in which Australians and New Zealanders fought alongside soldiers of 
many other nations. 
I can safely say that I used Kiwi polish Black to shine my school shoes 
when I was growng up and still use it to shine my black shoes today. And 
it still has the Kiwi on the front.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #442
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Traveller-digest        Saturday, 21 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 443

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Variant Gravities
         2. PCs Who Kill PCs
         3. Question for the masses
         4. Re: Gauss Pistols
         5. Re: Dawn and Established History
         6. Re: More Assorted
         7. Re: Gauss Pistols
         8. Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
         9. Re: Birth of a Colony...
        10. Spacing the OS2 & Linux dudes?
        11. Spreadsheets (Excel)
        12. Re: Gauss Pistols
        13. Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
        14. Re: An irreverent look at Bar Encounters
        15. unsubscribe
        16. Re: other places...
        17. Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
        18. Re: Water in the desert...
        19. Re: Tom Ellis re:Platform Wars
        20. Re: Traveller Suite Availability on Different Platforms

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 03:01:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Variant Gravities

Thanks to Leonard Erickson for a lucid exposition on the physics of
running, jumping, and pogo-ing in low gravity. (Well, okay, not
pogo-ing...)

I realise my Jumping in Variant Gravities house rule is not an entirely
accurate reflection of the real physics of low or high gravities. It's not
intended as such. It's just a quick-and-dirty solution for those times when
a player asks, "So, can I jump this lunar chasm, or not?" I'm interested in
playability. I'm not interested in stopping the game to write a paper on
the Problem of Low-G Athletics.

The problem is of course very complicated and interesting to think about.
But if my house rule is completely wonky (which it certainly is, especially
towards the lower end of the scale), can you suggest a better one?

Anyway, we can be glad that most inhabited low-gravity worlds in the
Imperium are likely to use gravplate floors. And we can be doubly glad that
*rotating* space stations without gravplates are probably a rarity in the
Imperium!

Glenn G.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."



------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 03:01:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PCs Who Kill PCs

Not surprisingly, my friend Terry provides the *best* story of internecine
violence between PC's. Terry's an extremely talented comedian with a decade
of experience in improv, stand-up, and sketch comedy. As you'd expect, he's
a brilliant character-oriented gamer. When he takes on a role, he plays it
to the hilt.

So he's playing Call of Cthulhu with a group he's never gamed with before.
His character is a psychotic New York cab driver (a redundancy, I know).
The other PCs have to be really careful to keep him away from weapons,
because he cheerfully admits to being somewhat "unpredictable." In the
interest of group solidarity, he's very helpful and doesn't mind if the
others search him regularly. He has a tendency to carry sticks of old
dynamite around in his coat pockets...

"You better not have any explosives on you."

"Oh no no no. Heck, no. Me? I ain't got a thing on me, honest!"

Another PC is a stuffy English professor, who insists on constantly
correcting the cabby's terrible English. "There is no such word as 'ain't',
you incredible cretin."

They're out in some woods (no doubt full of horrible, blasphemous,
unspeakable things), and they come across a big standing stone which, when
touched, gives one psychic visions of a strange, spiritual world of
intangible beings. The professor is entranced by these visions, and says he
wants to stay all night, leaning against the stone and dreaming of another
world. Everybody else wants to leave him there, go home, get some sleep;
but the cabby says, "We can't just leave da Professuh here. Somebody's
gotta stick around, keep watch over 'im."

"Okay," they say, "_You_ stay here and keep watch."

"O-oh, n-not me. Uh-I get a cold, I stay out all night. Why'nt one a you
guys do it?" 

"Nah, we need some sleep. You're so concerned, you stay."

"B-but we don't know what's out there... in the woods. A-and I don't got a
gun or nothin'." He's really sincerely giving them every chance to think
twice about this.

"Okay, take the rifle." They hand him the rifle, over his protests, and
leave him there with the professor, who's still dreaming of weird alien
unspeakable somethings...

After a while, the professor is jerked from his revery by the light touch
of cold metal against his forehead. The cabby is pointing the gun between
his eyes, grinning maniacally.

"Cold night, ain't it professuh?"

"ISN'T."

BLAM.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."



------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 00:03:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Question for the masses

    I was just wondering something and thought this'd be the place to ask:
  How many people who have hardbound copies of T4 on reserve from Imperium 
Games have broken down and bought a softback copy anyway just 'cause you're 
tired of waiting?
  I know that I almost fall into the latter category.  I ordered a copy at
GenCon and waited patiently for several weeks, but last week-end I finally
broke down and decided I needed my Traveller NOW!  I trekked on foot (the
only way I can while at school) to the game store (about 30-45 minute walk)
with every intention of shelling out $25 that I can't really afford just
for the luxury of having the book NOW only to find that, as I arrived, someone
was purchasing the last copy the store had in stock (don't get too excited
by that news, he was a long-time Traveller fan, not "new blood").  That
disappointment steeled my patience for at least another week or two, but I'm
not sure how much longer I'll be able to hold out being Traveller-less!

Still eager,
Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 07:05:52 GMT
Subject: Re: Gauss Pistols

On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:23:28 -0700, Ronald Urwiller wrote:

> In the TNE rulebook the Gauss Pistol is listed as having a high recoil
> factor.  Anyone find this odd?  I mean,  I thought the whole idea behind
> using a magnectic accelerator was to create a low recoil, silent weapon.

According to the old law written by that old guy with the wild white hair,
"every action has an equal and opposite reaction".  Once you accept this,
you have to ask "what is the reactive force in a gauss weapon after the
projectile has been fired in one direction?"  Simply put, the magnetic
field "moves" the projectile down the weapon's barrel.  For it to do this,
the magnetic field must have some sort of "presence".  Since the projectile
has mass and resists movement, this resistance acts to push back on the
presence of the magnetic field, thereby producing the felt "recoil".  The
magnetic field cannot act to move an object in one direction without
becoming the target of the "equal and opposite" reactive force which pushes
the field (and, therefore, the field generator) in the opposite direction.

As a further example, if you let your car idle for awhile (until it idles
smoothly) and you switch on the wipers, headlights, and rear window
defrogger, you will notice a drop in engine RPM.  Without getting into the
technical mumbo-jumbo, this sudden demand for electricity will actually put
a "physical" load on the alternator (and the engine RPM will drop).

> Also how come most guns that fire automatic can only fire SS with tranqs.
> Any thoughts or answers would be appreciated.  

Not sure about this one... it might have something to do with how fast the
tranq rounds can handle being loaded during the weapon's cyclic action; or
perhaps involve the high temperatures resulting from continued autofire.
Nah!

------------------------------

From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 01:58:38 -0700
Subject: Re: Dawn and Established History

kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)

> 	I dont think that this is cannon, the first solomanies had
> 	different languages. Now 1202 Galanglic, which is based on
> 	Solomany American English, is the only Solomany language
> 	spoken in the charted space. (Ok there are the islands in
> 	the riff, where french, russian, and german is still spoken
> 	on some worlds ;-)

I think early Galanglic would be more of a 'lingua terra', based on 
English, and spoken by the educated, being the language of commerce, 
diplomacy and international government.  Many, if not most, of 
Solomani at the beginning of the Rule of Man would have spoken 
another language as their mother tongue.  As well, many of the 
planets in the rimward half of the Solomani Sphere were colonized 
differing ethnic groups - jump drive opened up a vast vista of 
possibilities not seen in centuries for groups to find space away 
from real or imagined persecution or interference.  And the Solomani 
are notorious for defending their particular way of life.  And so 
many to choose from. :)

 
> 	So I would always, think that names who sound solomany
> 	are very likely to have solomany origin. And exspecialy
> 	that names who sound solomany, but not Galanglic should
> 	be dated back to the first solomany expansion.

If you mean the name itself, probably.  The person or entity under 
the name, however, could be anything.  Many Vilani and others took 
Solomani names after the First Imperium was conquered, to emulate 
their 'betters', and a few thousand years of intermarriage has 
muddied the waters.


- --
Edward Swatschek -- edjs@mindlink.net -- ConQuest96 Registrar
   -*-*-
General Inquiries:   Micheal  (604) 266-4964   md@mindlink.net
GMs/Referees     :   Vicki    (604) 266-2421   vicki.domanski@ubc.ca
Web page         :   http://mindlink.net/md/

------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:21:06 +0200
Subject: Re: More Assorted

On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 gdw.support@genie.com wrote:
> Michael Koehne:
> >> When was Sternmetal Horizons formed?
> >	Sternmetal sounds so f*cking german, that it has to dated
> >	back to the Solomanies.
> Sternmetal Horizons sounds German?
> GSbAG stands for Geschichtkreis Sternshiffbau AG (German speakers
> forgive my spelling). Anyone notice a resemblence?

Actually 'Sternmetal' seems to be a mixture of German and English.  
'Stern' (in German) is 'star' (in English) and 'metal' (in English) is 
'Metall' (in German).  Thus it probably would be called
	'Sternenmetall' in German
or
	'Starmetal' in English
if nothing is mixed.  And yes, I'd say that for us native Germans it also 
sounds somewhat inspired by the german language.

Greetings from... yes, gotcha, Germany!

				Thomas Biskup.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 02:24:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Gauss Pistols

Ronald Urwiller <urwilron@ptw.com> writes:

> In the TNE rulebook the Gauss Pistol is listed as having a high recoil
> factor.  Anyone find this odd?  I mean,  I thought the whole idea behind
> using a magnectic accelerator was to create a low recoil, silent weapon.

Gauss weapons don't give you much advantage with regards to recoil.  
All the accelerating of the bullet is still done in a very short 
period of time within the barrel of the weapon itself.  The Gauss 
pistol has a fairly high muzzle energy for a light pistol, so has 
greater kick.  It gun itself will be quiet, but the bullet's passage 
will not be silent, since the bullet is supersonic.  No muzzle flash 
though.

- --
Edward Swatschek -- edjs@mindlink.net -- ConQuest96 Registrar
   -*-*-
General Inquiries:   Micheal  (604) 266-4964   md@mindlink.net
GMs/Referees     :   Vicki    (604) 266-2421   vicki.domanski@ubc.ca
Web page         :   http://mindlink.net/md/

------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 01:24:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

At 4:55 AM -0400 9/20/96, Guy Wilson wrote:
>Amen.  I have Macs at home and at work, but really do feel that this
>should be a cross-platform issue. HTML/Java is a great solution.
>
>Guy Wilson
>
>Michael Koehne wrote:
>>
>
>>
>>         I would realy like if a traveller suite will be portable,
>>         e.g. implemented in HTML/Java, Tcl/Tk or Phyton. These 3
>>         languages are slow but they provide cross platform
>>         development.
>>
>>         I would realy dislike if this Traveller Suite will be MS-Only.
>>

I'd like to put in my two cents worth for Perl as well.  I *know* that Perl
is currently available for Unix, Mac & Windows, but I'm not sure that all
of the above languages (except Java) are available on all the popular
platforms.

Perl has the added advantage that you can do things like write an http
server in perl that listens on your local machine and does database lookups
so you can do things like have a form that allows the user to search for a
specific piece of library data.


Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

"To see tomorrow's PC, look at today's Macintosh." -- BYTE, October 1995



------------------------------

From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:45:26 +0000
Subject: Re: Birth of a Colony...

At 05:09 AM 9/20/96 +0000, you wrote:
>Hello Folks,
>  I just finished setting up the basic parameters for my gaming group to
>build a viable colony.  I have been using the WORLD TAMERS HANDBOOK and
>came across and interesting anomalty...
>
>  <snip for length>
>
>Essentially, this planet will be a
>tech level 10/3 world.  If one assumes that 80% of the pop is at tech 3,
>while the other 20% is at tech 10, how would you go about handling it in
>the trade classification?  

Sounds like most of the third world today; dirt floors, plowing by animal
power, out door plumbing, and TV antenna or a satelite dish on the roof.

<snip>

>Myself, I intend to handle it as a split level

I don't see much as an alternative. The only other mechanism I can picture
is to have external trade done only thru the tech 10 site, making the tech
3's invisible to other planets. Every now and then the tech 3's could
generate a special cargo for the tech 10's to sell.

<snip>
>
>Damn I like the picture this presents!  It's almost Heinleinish!!!
>
>Come to think of it, "Methusalah's Children" could be those who have been
>genetically "genered" to naturally producing the effect of Anagathics and
>Lazurus Long (a character from Heinlein's TIME ENOUGH FOR LOVE,
>METHUSALAH'S CHILDREN, THE CAT WHO COULD WALK THROUGH WALLS, and so on)
>could really exist!
>
>Hot diggity!
>

Agreement. Added complication: what about the Tech 3's that get comfortable
at that level and resent the Tech 10's attempts to raise them for their own
good?

Have fun.

Garry


------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 08:02:20 -0400
Subject: Spacing the OS2 & Linux dudes?

Ross Coburn wrote:

>>(humor mode on)
>>Maybe the Linux, Mac, and OS/2 users on the list should band together and
>>toss the Windoze crowd out the airlock?
>>(humor mode off).
>
>Actually, that might be a good idea.  And if we get Darroch working for
>us, he could no doubt find a way to then space the fools using Linux and
>OS/2 right after them!
>
>_Then_ we'd see some fun!
>
>(Oh, and we promise not to space the programmers!  We need them!)

     But whatever would I want to do that for?  Harmless innocent little
severely off-topic me?  Spacing people is evil!  It's senseless!  It's
cruel!  It's wrong!   Oh dear... just thinking about it make me want to go
lie down and take a Valium...

     Which reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask for ages: does
anyone know what the exact effects of prolonged exposure to vacuum on a
corpse would be?  Would the corpse freeze or just dessicate?

     Y'see, if they dessicate, they'd make much better hood ornaments 'coz
they wouldn't thaw out every time you landed somewhere where the temp was
above freezing.  And they'd look cooler.

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@Communique.se>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:10:27 +0200
Subject: Spreadsheets (Excel)

I have a question for you all..

I am in the process of making a lot of spreadsheets for Megatraveller,
Traveller-the new era. and wonder if anyone are interested in that
subject. It's not going to be a simple shit only displaying the stats of
the process, but the whole shebang with calculations and lists to get
the info from. In short..

It will take an instant to make a starship, vehicle, weapon, star
system, home planet, or what ever.
        
        Please give me your insights on this!!

                Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@Communique.se>

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 08:21:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Gauss Pistols

On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Ronald Urwiller wrote:

> 
> 
> In the TNE rulebook the Gauss Pistol is listed as having a high recoil
> factor.  Anyone find this odd?  I mean,  I thought the whole idea behind
> using a magnectic accelerator was to create a low recoil, silent weapon.
> Also how come most guns that fire automatic can only fire SS with tranqs.
> Any thoughts or answers would be appreciated.  


Its a simple matter of physics, you fling a metal dart or slug out at high
velocities, you get recoil, its a matter of kinetic energy. Nobody ever
said a gauss weapon was low recoil, they are quieter than chemical powered
slug throwers and have no muzzle flash, but they defiitely have recoil.


> 
> Brad Urwiller
> urwilron@ptw.com
> 
> 

Tom E


------------------------------

From: Jason Davies <obiwan@thenet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:35:16 -0000
Subject: Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

>From: spritch@cinternet.net (Steven Pritchard)
>Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 01:25:15 -0400
>Subject: Re:  Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

sp>Ok...I'm a diehard Traveller player/ref from way back >in '78, and I'm=
 a Mac
sp>User.  THERE'D BETTER BE A MAC RELEASE FOR THE TRAVELLER SUITE!!!

sp>If there can be an Amiga re-release of MegaTraveller2, I think somebod=
y
sp>could work on coding a version of the suite for us.

Amiga software would go down rather well in Europe where it's still holdi=
ng on.
Though if there's a Mac version (Motorola 680X0 CPU) it's fairly easy to =

emulate a Mac providing you rip off it's ROM chip and get system 7.
or how about a UNIX version, I can use NetBSD as an alternative OS.
ohbugger it, if it comes down to it I can emulate a 486 and run windows 9=
5 at a crawl
(except it'll multitask better!!).

sorry I just couldn't let the amiga not get a mention.

obiwan
- -- =

"Remember, the force will be with you...always"

                           Obi-wan Kenobi, Jedi Master


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 06:46:21 -0800
Subject: Re: An irreverent look at Bar Encounters

On 20 Sep 96 at 9:16, Paul Walker spewed:

> I've been thinking about the Random Bar Encounter and I think it
> would be unfair to each of the incarnations if any were left out,
> so...
> 
> MT (MegaTraveller)
> 

Actually, as somebody who still uses MT, I don't think you're table 
for MT is quite accurate:

Here is my amended take on the MT bar encounter table:

Randon Baar Encounter Table:

Yep, that's right.  The table is completely missing.  They just plain 
forgot...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Robert Ellis <re2@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 15:39:54 +0100 (BST)
Subject: unsubscribe

 Could you please unsubscribe me from your mailing list, thanks.

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:43:48 PST
Subject: Re: other places...

On 19 Sep 96 at 11:31, Timothy Collinson spewed:

> Try the local library....  ;-)   - assuming its not a high-tech
> world

Actually, high-tech worlds will still have libraries. They may have
books on display (much like some libraries might have a sumerian clay
tablet on display) but they'll mostly be a bunch of computers/terminals
for public use.

Sure, you can access the data from your hotel room or from your home.
But there will still be people who can't afford the charges, so they'll
go down to the free terminals. And it's a lot harder to track just what
you are researching if you do it at the library (on worlds with
reasonable levels of personal freedoms, the libraries make it a point
to *not* keep records of who accessed what)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:03:44 PST
Subject: Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

In mail you write:

> OK folks, it looks like we're in danger of missing out on this Traveller 
> suite.  Therefore, all Mac users on this list _please_ make yourselves 
> known, along with the number of non-list Mac users you know.  If we can 
> get enough out there, we may be able to convince Jo to get it coded for 
> us!

This is our revenge for back when you had to have an Apple to run the
available Traveller software. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:46:05 PST
Subject: Re: Water in the desert...

In mail you write:

>   8 lbs is an approximation.
>
> 1 US gallon = 3.8l 
> 1 CDN gallon = 4.55l
>
> 1 US gallon = 3.8x2.2 = 8.36 lbs 
> 1 CDN gallon = 4.55x2.2 = 10 lbs
>
>   I used to think a US gallon was 4 liters, but the back of one of my
>   texts in college had the actual values.

I've heard rumors of the use of a "metric gallon" that *is* 4 liters
in Europe.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 23:35:11 PST
Subject: Re: Tom Ellis re:Platform Wars

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Ross Coburn wrote:
>
>> Tom, this isn't a jyhad (at least not for me).  I simply don't have, nor 
>> do I have any desire to own, a PC, and so approached the designers of the 
>> Traveller suite concerning the possibility of getting a Mac version done. 
>>  I was told that they would be interested in doing so if they knew the 
>> user base was large enough.
>> 
>> Ergo, we are making ourselves known.  No more, no less.  You'd do the 
>> same if a bit of software wasn't coming out for your platform. . .
>> 
>
> It isn't, I run OS/2. I happen to be able to run some other platforms on
> this more flaxible than any other OS, but nobody is breaking down doors
> with OS/2 Traveller software. And I was a bit tongue in cheek, it was the
> name of the thread that got me going.
>
> As for traveller tools, I like this talk of html/java based tools, then
> just about ANYONE could run the exact same tools.
>
> (humor mode on)
> Maybe the Linux, Mac, and OS/2 users on the list should band together and
> toss the Windoze crowd out the airlock?
> (humor mode off).

Serious suggestion here:

The CD should include file format data for all data files, so that
folks can write their *own* interfaces. As an example, if I can track
down the odd network cards required, I may be able to link my old
TRS-80 gear into my LAN. And they'd do ok as platforms to run some data
search & display functions.

Or I may just prefer to use more modern gear to have a customized
interface. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 00:09:47 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller Suite Availability on Different Platforms

In mail you write:

>       Due to market demands the Traveller Suite of software is being
> developed with Windows 3.1, 3.11, NT and 95 as the primary release
> platform.

Please keep in mind that Windows 3.1 will run on a 286. So the software
either needs to run ok in standard mode on a 286, or you need to add
"386" to the "required hardware/software" list.

Also, please include an ASCII file or files documenting data file
formats well enough for those of us with "odd" systems to be able to
access them. You'd be amazed at what a sufficiently twisted person can
hook into a LAN...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #443
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Traveller-digest        Saturday, 21 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 444

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: I tried to post these, but ... (fwd)
         2. Re: TAS Membership for Scouts
         3. Re: Variant Gravities
         4. T4 Hardbaccks in stores?!
         5. RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #442
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #443
         7. Re: Traveller Suite Availability on Different Platforms
         8. Re: Question for the masses
         9. Re: Sternmetal Horizons
        10. Is it true?
        11. Re: Gauss Pistols
        12. Traveller computer programs
        13. Re: Gauss pistols
        14. Spacing the OS2 & Linux dudes? Cold, man cold!
        15. Various stuff..mainly TAS
        16. Re: Question for the masses

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 00:24:32 PST
Subject: Re: I tried to post these, but ... (fwd)

In mail you write:

>> Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>> In mail you write:
>
>> Slight problem here. Say they are in an area like the Balkans. The
>> Serbs will sneak into a Croat area to attack, and get the hell out of
>> there. That way it's the Croats who get nailed. This sort of thing
>> happens in real life. Heck, even the more "dedicated" guerilla types
>> will attack in areas they don't live so as to increase the number of
>> people with a reason to hate the invaders.
>
> How badly do you want to teach these guerillas/bandits an "object lesson"?
> If they have nothing that you really want, and are upsetting the things
> that you *do* want, well, just dump a load of ceramic smartrubble on the
> several square kays that they are passing through (from orbit, of course).
> Everything - and I mean *everything* - in the region affected no longer
> exists! Do this a few times and there aren't any more guerillas/bandits.
> Do you care if the (few) survivors hate your guts as long as they do
> nothing about it? Why would the imperium care if these sorts of actions
> got the results they wanted?

You are assuming that "kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out" is an
acceptable solution. In which case, why did you *wait* for a guerilla
attack?

If you are trying to suppress guerilla activity, it is because you
either need the people for their production capability, or because you
are supposed to be *protecting* the non-guerillas from the guerillas.

This complicates things greatly.

>> Sabotaging fuel is harder too. Bbut I can think of a couple of
>> possibilities. A device that when slipped into an LH2 tank sits there
>> until the fuel level gets *way* down. Then it ignites a charge of the
>> material they use in things like "SolidOx" torches (basicly a solid
>> that releases an *enormous* amount of oxygen when ignited). Use the
>> Hydrogen to cool the gas so it can mix well (not that hard to set up).
>> Then, once the tank is full of the right mixture of oxygen and
>> hydrogen, supply a spark. The resulting blast should *easily* rival a
>> truck bomb. And it'll likely destroy or at least incapacitate even an
>> AFV.
>
> Of course, this assumes that the locals have enough tech to even suspect
> how the invaders tech works. Why would a Croat or Serb or Bosnian peasant
> who probably never got more than an Elementary School education and for
> whom the most complicated piece of tech he knows anything about is his
> AK-47 clone know anything about Fusion power systems? How would he even
> have a clue as to how to jigger the input lines so as to introduce O2 into
> the tanks?

Believe it or not, aside from insulation, the way you fill an LH2 tank
isn't that different from the way you fill any other fuel tank. You
take a cover off a fill port, insert the nozzle on the end of the hose,
and start pumping. The details of the port and nozzle may be a bit more
complicated, but not all that much. So access to the tank isn't much of
a problem.

As for the gizmo to drop in, that gets supplied by your high tech
allies. The OSS came up with a lot of nasties that got shipped off to
the Resistance to use for sabotaging German fuel supplies during WWII.
I'm just following the same model. Something small, cheap and
relatively reliable that can be provided to the guerillas to help them
fight.

To put it another way, do you think the Afghans built their own Stinger
missiles?  Guerillas will have high tech aid for the things they can't
figure out how to sabotage on their own.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 23:53:19 PST
Subject: Re: TAS Membership for Scouts

In mail you write:

> Interesting thoughts.  I guess this is as good a reason as any :-), just
> really hadn't though of the TAS as snooty.  Must be a Traveller version of
> the "Adventurer's Club".

You mean that wasn't *obvious*?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:08:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Variant Gravities

On Sat, 21 Sep 1996, Glenn Grant wrote:

> I realise my Jumping in Variant Gravities house rule is not an entirely
> accurate reflection of the real physics of low or high gravities. It's not
> intended as such. It's just a quick-and-dirty solution for those times when
> a player asks, "So, can I jump this lunar chasm, or not?" I'm interested in
> playability. I'm not interested in stopping the game to write a paper on
> the Problem of Low-G Athletics.

It works for me. :)

> The problem is of course very complicated and interesting to think about.
> But if my house rule is completely wonky (which it certainly is, especially
> towards the lower end of the scale), can you suggest a better one?

Nope.  It's what I'll be using.

> Anyway, we can be glad that most inhabited low-gravity worlds in the
> Imperium are likely to use gravplate floors. And we can be doubly glad that
> *rotating* space stations without gravplates are probably a rarity in the
> Imperium!

:)  Actually, I like the idea of ships that spin for gravity...Never used 
that method in Traveller, but it is appealing.  Less hand-waving 
involved. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:44:53 -0400
Subject: T4 Hardbaccks in stores?!

I'd like a little explanation of that one myself, since I STILL don't have
mine yet either! (Watch the damn thing come today, just to make me look
stupid...)
                                        Allen

------------------------------

From: "Jeffrey Cornish" <Boy_Scout@msn.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 18:29:16 UT
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #442

I'm batching my responses here....

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:28:40 -0700
>Subject: Webpage
>
>Hey, folks.
>
>Since the TML has taken a decidedly odd turn in the past few weeks, I've
>decided not to try to compete with the webmasters around here.  Instead, I
>am proud to announce:
>
>TRAVELLER - The Silly Era
>
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/silytrav.htm
>
>I am collecting filk, lightbulb jokes, stupid house rules, odd things you've
>built using FF&S, and additions to the Traveller Drinking Game.
>
>Do stop by and take a look; my wife has typed her fingers off coding this
>thing, so she'd really appreciate the feedback.
>

Very cool!  Now I'm wondering how stupid a ship I could design....


Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> said:
>
>> 1) In the section on breaking away, on p. 117, the text says that in
>> order to jump you need twice as many energy points as the jump number of
>> the jump you're attempting.
>
>I didn't write the combat rules; but I think that's a hold-over from High
>Guard, and doesn't really mean much in T4.  Just as an (untested)
>suggestion, allow the ship to jump as soon as it accumulates enough energy
>(that is, as soon as Power Plant Number times Number of Turns Charging is
>greater than or equal to twice the Jump Distance in parsecs).
>
>> This needs to be resolved somehow, preferably by increasing the power
>> plants of the starships.
>
>The "power plant number" in QSDS/T4 is just a made-up thing that
>more-or-less abstractly represents the size of the plant in relation to the
>size of the ship.
>

Makes sense to me.  I'm involved with a shared-world sci-fi writers/artist 
project--Tales of the Tai-Pan.  The Tai-Pan is a free merchant, has a crew of 
around twenty and is described as an 'interstellar UPS truck.'

(However, I tried creating a USP from the MT/FFS rules--the Tai-Pan, 
streamlined wedge 400 meters long displaces 200,000 tonnes!!!  Obviously the 
Traveller universe's tech doesn't match the Tai-Pan's tech)

The Tai-Pan has a great advantage over her competition...salvaged MilTech 
engines.  Whoo boy can she burn for orbit.  And there are (undefined) 
advantages when she uses her Jump Drive (a _true_ jump drive--near instant 
transit to your destination, however you have to get about 50AU out before you 
can use it.  Travel time is around two weeks--one outbound, jump, one inbound)

>From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
>Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 23:01:32 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Re: TAS income
>
>Hello Lan,
>  Your question regarding income kinda smacks of GM judgement call.  Since
>one person's answer regarding Muster Out Benefits indicates that it is
>wise to roll the benefits as you muster out - your reasoning is sound.  On
>the other hand, if you consider the lucky "captain" in the merchant
>marines who gets receipt of a ship, the logic indicates otherwise.
>Consider: how is it possible that all of the "captains" benefit rolls get
>the +1 for having captancy rank?  More importantly, the Captain gets
>enough rolls on the benefits chart that he could conceivably get more than
>one "ship" benefit.
>  In the end, despite the fact that this "mythical" captain gets multiple
>chances at owning a ship despite the fact that he may have been a captain
>for only one term, it is likely that the "storyline" of the captain isn't
>that he got 4 chances at owning his own ship, but that he saved enough
>money to get enough money massed together to pay for the ship.  Think of
>the character as winning the planetary lottery, or perhaps the character
>won the money gambling, and then invested it in a ship.  Perhaps the
>character's great uncle died and left him the ship, plus a lot of debts
>that must legally be paid off...
>  Were it me, having to decide upon this, I would state that the TAS
>benefit came at the end of the character's generation.  Why?  Aside from
>the fact that it presents complications that were not envisioned in the
>original game rules, you could easily rationalize that the military sat on
>the decision to reward the player character by some lengthly amount of
>time.  I suspect you have heard tales of medals awarded pothumously by
>many years, or that a man charged with some specific crime in the military
>has been proven to be right some 20 years ago, and that Congress has
>finally recognized that fact after 30 years - awarding his survivors some
>benefit...
>
>Hal
>
>

Roleplaywise, I agree--maybe the membership papers for Lan's marine had been 
sitting under his C/O's lamp for twenty years, and _just_ as Lan's character 
decided to travel a bit, he got it in the mail...
...or maybe it took n-terms for the TAS to decide  (Gee, Bartholomew, I don't 
know.  He _was_ just a marine.  Why does the Corps keep sending these 
applications anyway?)  <grin>



>From: Ronald Urwiller <urwilron@ptw.com>
>Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:17:51 -0700
>Subject: Gravity URL 
>
>My apologies everyone.  The URL for the document about gravity inductions is 
at:
>
>http://www.oeonline.com/~sgoodf/nature/cgbi/index.html#4r
>
>Disregard the URL in my last message.  Sorry about that.  For any of you
>that do peruse this page.  Let me know your thoughts on it.  (No, its not
>mine but it's got possibilities galore in it).  Thanks
>
>
>Brad Urwiller 
>urwilron@ptw.com
>

Well, the article at this link is invalid.  It turns out the rate of neutrino 
flux _doesn't_ change with the sunspot cycle (the big japanese neutrino 
detector/telescope finished a 6-year observing run recently, and thier results 
disputed earlier observations)

>From: Ronald Urwiller <urwilron@ptw.com>
>Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:23:28 -0700
>Subject: Gauss Pistols
>
>In the TNE rulebook the Gauss Pistol is listed as having a high recoil
>factor.  Anyone find this odd?  I mean,  I thought the whole idea behind
>using a magnectic accelerator was to create a low recoil, silent weapon.
>Also how come most guns that fire automatic can only fire SS with tranqs.
>Any thoughts or answers would be appreciated.  
>
>Brad Urwiller
>urwilron@ptw.com
>

Well you know, those tranq rounds have the big red poofball on the end...  
<grinning, ducking and running>

>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 21:20:55 -0500
>Subject: Re: TAS Membership for Scouts
>
>On 09/20/96 at 12:15 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:
>
>>> Lan, I think the idea is that the TAS is a kind of "snooty" society which
>>> looks generally for people in what it considers "noble" professions.
>>> (That's what the blackball business is all about: People saying "Oh no, I
>>> don't think they're _our_ kind of people").  
>
>>> I know what you're thinking, though: Isn't this a club for "Travellers"?
>
>So, if you want to give Scouts a membership in TAS, do it.  It's not
>especially hard to plug TAS into position 7.  Of course, you'll have to
>decide when to let the character have the +1DM on her mustering out roll. 
>The answer is to organize your scout service into ranks, they really *must*
>have some sort of organizational structure after all.  <g> The structure
>can be looser than the Navy's more like the Merchant service.
>
>Eris
>- -- 
>- -----------------------------------------------------------
>eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
>- -----------------------------------------------------------

Actually the Scout didn't get a shot at TAS membership when mustering out in 
MT either...

>
>------------------------------
>
>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 21:28:21 -0500
>Subject: Re: TAS Membership for Scouts
>
>On 09/20/96 at 04:10 PM,  Lan Kelly <CyberWere@ConnectI.com> said:
>
>>Interesting thoughts.  I guess this is as good a reason as any :-), just
>>really hadn't though of the TAS as snooty.  Must be a Traveller version of
>>the "Adventurer's Club".
>
>TAS isn't a snooty club in my universe.  I've always made it
>possible for all characters get a chance at TAS membership. <g>
>
>Eris
>- -- 
>- -----------------------------------------------------------
>eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
>- -----------------------------------------------------------

Eric, they charge a _MILLION_ Creddies to get in!  They _are_ a snooty bunch!  
<grin>

I suppose the real difference here would be if your Traveller universe was 
more or less class oriented.  Nobles, entertainers, 'heroic' Marines, Naval 
officers, Agents and even a daring Rogue can get in.  As for the common Army 
soldier, Researcher, Merchant and Scout, sorry--out of luck, unless you cough 
up the cash.  And then only if nobody minds.

Hmm.. that's interesting.  The Rogue gets a shot at it (Fast Talk the local 
TAS??), but the rest of the folk who get dirt under thier fingernails (Army, 
Reseacher, Merchant, Scout) don't.

				Huzzah!

				Jeffrey

				jeffreyc@sprynet.com

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 15:26:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #443

>
>From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@Communique.se>
>Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:10:27 +0200
>Subject: Spreadsheets (Excel)
>
>I have a question for you all..
>
>I am in the process of making a lot of spreadsheets for Megatraveller,
>Traveller-the new era. and wonder if anyone are interested in that
>subject. It's not going to be a simple shit only displaying the stats of
>the process, but the whole shebang with calculations and lists to get
>the info from. In short..
>
>It will take an instant to make a starship, vehicle, weapon, star
>system, home planet, or what ever.
>        
>        Please give me your insights on this!!
  
(Allen, trying desperatley to contain his enthusiasm, says...)
        yeah, that would be kinda cool. So far, every Excel spreadsheet I've
run across I've been able to use with my Microsoft Works 4.0, so if these
worked too, they would be very useful.

(What he really wanted to say was: OH YES! PLEASE MAKE THESE AVAILABLE!!)

                        Allen


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 14:09:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller Suite Availability on Different Platforms

On 09/21/96 at 12:09 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>Also, please include an ASCII file or files documenting data file formats
>well enough for those of us with "odd" systems to be able to access them.
>You'd be amazed at what a sufficiently twisted person can hook into a
>LAN...

This *is* a good idea.

Eris

ps.  I'm still hoping ya'll will consider coding in something easily ported
though. <g>

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 13:59:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Question for the masses

On 09/21/96 at 12:03 AM,  Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU> said:

>    I was just wondering something and thought this'd be the place to ask:
>  How many people who have hardbound copies of T4 on reserve from Imperium
> Games have broken down and bought a softback copy anyway just 'cause
>you're  tired of waiting?

Guilty!

Actually, my plan was to get the hardback to keep and a softback to use up
and replace.  I had every intention of getting a softback from a FNGS ASAP
anyway.  <g>

The fact that I had to wait almost a month before ONE copy arrived in town
put a twist in my shorts, though.  BTW, when I did get my copy it wasn't
from that not so FNGS, it was from a comics store. The game store *still*
doesn't have the copies they TELL me they ordered.  (You think they could
be lying to me about ordering them? Nah! They'd never do that would they?
<g>)

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 13:50:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Sternmetal Horizons

On 09/20/96 at 12:21 PM,  Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de> said:

>Actually 'Sternmetal' seems to be a mixture of German and English.  
>'Stern' (in German) is 'star' (in English) and 'metal' (in English) is 
>'Metall' (in German).  Thus it probably would be called
>	'Sternenmetall' in German
>or
>	'Starmetal' in English

Folks, not to put too strong a point on it, but "Sternmetal
Horizons" could just have easily started as "The Stern Metal
Fabrication Company", founded by Lou Stern and then later merged with
"Horizon Shipyards" to become "Sternmetal Horizons." <g>

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 14:07:26 -0500
Subject: Is it true?

On 09/21/96 at 12:24 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>To put it another way, do you think the Afghans built their own Stinger
>missiles?  Guerillas will have high tech aid for the things they can't
>figure out how to sabotage on their own.

Slightly off subject, but...  Is it true that the Afghans got hand made
20mm *rifles* from craftsmen in Pakistan.  And that they shot down a number
of helicopters with them?  Lie down on the side of mountain, balance the
rife between your feet and pop Hinds flying by.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 14:23:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Gauss Pistols

On 09/21/96 at 07:05 AM,  jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said:

>According to the old law written by that old guy with the wild white hair,
>"every action has an equal and opposite reaction". 

Naw!  That was the Englishman with the lump on his head, not the guy with
the wild hair.  <g>

Eris,  "...just remember, no matter where you go...there you are!"

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 16:55:00 -0400
Subject: Traveller computer programs

I seem to recall at one time obtaining a program from one of the FTP sites
that could take the sector files and dice them up into their individual
subsectors, thus making them usable by various subsector viewers floating
around out there. Does anybody kbow which program this is? Does anyone know
of any program which does this? I'm not really eager to do this by hand.
                        Allen

------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 13:45:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Gauss pistols

> From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
> Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 07:05:52 GMT
> 
> On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:23:28 -0700, Ronald Urwiller wrote:
> 
> > In the TNE rulebook the Gauss Pistol is listed as having a high recoil
> > factor.  Anyone find this odd?  I mean,  I thought the whole idea behind
> > using a magnectic accelerator was to create a low recoil, silent weapon.
> 
> According to the old law written by that old guy with the wild white hair,
> "every action has an equal and opposite reaction".

While Sir Isaac Newton is *now* old (about four centuries), he was quite 
young when he formulated his Three Laws of Dynamics.  And, in every 
portrait of him I've ever seen, his hair was immaculately coiffed in 
proper Elizabethan-upper-class style.

You wouldn't be thinking of some later punk kid who spoiled Sir Isaac's 
physics, would you? :)

> Once you accept this,
> you have to ask "what is the reactive force in a gauss weapon after the
> projectile has been fired in one direction?"  Simply put, the magnetic
> field "moves" the projectile down the weapon's barrel.  For it to do this,
> the magnetic field must have some sort of "presence".  Since the projectile
> has mass and resists movement, this resistance acts to push back on the
> presence of the magnetic field, thereby producing the felt "recoil".  The
> magnetic field cannot act to move an object in one direction without
> becoming the target of the "equal and opposite" reactive force which pushes
> the field (and, therefore, the field generator) in the opposite direction.

Of course.  In any projectile weapon, the weapon gets pushed back as it 
pushes the projectile forward.  In a gauss weapon, as you note, the 
magnetic field mediates this momentum transfer.  In a chemical firearm, 
the expanding gas in the barrel of the weapon does so.  In a longbow, the 
physical contact between weapon and round does so.

Heck, watch a shot-putter some time.  As they release the shot, they're 
in a position in which they'd fall face-forward onto the ground if they 
*didn't* release it.  They use the throwing of the ball to impart 
backward momentum to themselves, thus keeping their balance.

> As a further example, if you let your car idle for awhile (until it idles
> smoothly) and you switch on the wipers, headlights, and rear window
> defrogger, you will notice a drop in engine RPM.  Without getting into the
> technical mumbo-jumbo, this sudden demand for electricity will actually put
> a "physical" load on the alternator (and the engine RPM will drop).

The alternator works like any AC generator, by turning a magnet inside a 
(set of) coils.  The spinning magnet induces a voltage (and hence 
current) across the coils.  Conversely, the voltage difference tugs 
backward against the magnet's rotation.  More action and reaction.  Ain't 
no free lunch. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Author of Orb: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/orbinfo.html
   |    Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 14:35:10 -0500
Subject: Spacing the OS2 & Linux dudes? Cold, man cold!

On 09/21/96 at 08:02 AM,  rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott) said:

>    Which reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask for ages: does
>anyone know what the exact effects of prolonged exposure to vacuum on a
>corpse would be?  Would the corpse freeze or just dessicate?

Geeze, you're Canadian you ought to know this.  I know it's cold up there
and being so far north I'm sure there's very little air. <wink>

I'd say, first they:  freeze - if in the the shade or far enough out or fry
- - if close in to the sun.  Then they desiccate.

I suspect the longterm result would be pretty bad.  When the water freezes,
the cells, blood vessels, etc would break and you'd have pretty much a bag
of pulp that would then desiccate into the
consistency of jerky.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 15:35:50 -0500
Subject: Various stuff..mainly TAS

On 09/21/96 at 06:29 PM,  "Jeffrey Cornish" <Boy_Scout@msn.com> said:

>I'm batching my responses here....

So, I'll batch my replies too.  <g>

>Very cool!  Now I'm wondering how stupid a ship I could design....

Did you ever see that computer game with the *really* goofy ships?

>Makes sense to me.  I'm involved with a shared-world sci-fi writers/artist
> project--Tales of the Tai-Pan.  The Tai-Pan is a free merchant, has a
>crew of  around twenty and is described as an 'interstellar UPS truck.'

>(However, I tried creating a USP from the MT/FFS rules--the Tai-Pan, 
>streamlined wedge 400 meters long displaces 200,000 tonnes!!!  Obviously
>the  Traveller universe's tech doesn't match the Tai-Pan's tech)

Hum, well, to give you some scale...a WWII battleship (Missouri class)
would come in at around 8,000 tonnes, a present day big carrier would be
somewhat less then 20,000 tonnes.

Seaships are rated in "register tons" where a ton = 100 cubic feet of
volume.  A Traveller tonne (14 M^3) is approximately 500 cubic feet, so 1
traveller tonne ~ 5 register tons.

What does a supertanker rate..about 1,000,000 tons?  So, in Traveller terms
that would be 200,000 tonnes.  The Tai-Pan is equivalent size-wise to a
supertanker. <g>

Because of the size of these ships I require them to keep their CG's on
while on the ground...or (as is more usual) berth in a harbor. My
spaceports are usually right next to the seaports, and there is the same
feel to them.

>The Tai-Pan has a great advantage over her competition...salvaged MilTech 
>engines.  Whoo boy can she burn for orbit.  And there are (undefined) 
>advantages when she uses her Jump Drive (a _true_ jump drive--near instant
> transit to your destination, however you have to get about 50AU out
>before you  can use it.  Travel time is around two weeks--one outbound,
>jump, one inbound)

I like that!  <G> I have ships jump *in* within 20 stellar diameters of the
local star.  They have to travel out to the interesting planets using their
maneuver drives.  To jump *out* they have to sail out to beyond 300 stellar
diameters.  So in my games the star type has a decided impact on travel.
<g>

>Well, the article at this link is invalid.  

Umm, it read pretty invalid to me, and I hadn't heard about the japanese
findings. <g>

>It turns out the rate of neutrino flux _doesn't_ change with the
>sunspot cycle (the big japanese neutrino detector/telescope finished
>a 6-year observing run recently, and their results disputed earlier
>observations)

There's still room for debate, though, until *their* findings are confirmed
by somebody else.

>>So, if you want to give Scouts a membership in TAS, do it.  It's not
>>especially hard to plug TAS into position 7.  Of course, you'll have to
>>decide when to let the character have the +1DM on her mustering out roll. 
>>The answer is to organize your scout service into ranks, they really *must
>>have some sort of organizational structure after all.  <g> The structure
>>can be looser than the Navy's more like the Merchant service.

>Actually the Scout didn't get a shot at TAS membership when mustering out i
>MT either...

They did in mine.  <g> 

Ok, I know they didn't in the book, but MT being what it was...could you
*really* be sure it wasn't just another piece of errata.  <wink> Seriously,
I added to the mustering out tables in MT (and CT for that matter) too.

>>TAS isn't a snooty club in my universe.  I've always made it
>>possible for all characters get a chance at TAS membership. <g>

>>Eris

>Eric,

It's Eris, Jeffrey, not Eric. <g>

>...they charge a _MILLION_ Creddies to get in!  They _are_ a snooty
bunch <grin>

Nah, in a universe where an air-raft costs 600,000 cr a million cred is a
couple years savings!  <g> Anyway, the million is just to keep the finances
in the black.

In my universe, TAS is not as elite as you seem to make it.  It's more than
the *autoclub*, but not much.  The really *exclusive* clubs, you don't hear
about.  <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Lan Kelly <CyberWere@ConnectI.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 15:56:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Question for the masses

Trent wrote:
>    I was just wondering something and thought this'd be the place to ask:
>  How many people who have hardbound copies of T4 on reserve from Imperium 
>Games have broken down and bought a softback copy anyway just 'cause you're 
>tired of waiting?
>  I know that I almost fall into the latter category.  I ordered a copy at
>GenCon and waited patiently for several weeks, but last week-end I finally
>broke down and decided I needed my Traveller NOW!  I trekked on foot (the
>only way I can while at school) to the game store (about 30-45 minute walk)
>with every intention of shelling out $25 that I can't really afford just
>for the luxury of having the book NOW only to find that, as I arrived, someone
>was purchasing the last copy the store had in stock (don't get too excited
>by that news, he was a long-time Traveller fan, not "new blood").  That
>disappointment steeled my patience for at least another week or two, but I'm
>not sure how much longer I'll be able to hold out being Traveller-less!
>
>Still eager,
>Trent Smith

Here's one who bit the financial bullet.  Although it took three weeks.  The
supplier in this area sent back most of his shipment damaged and had to
re-order.  At least that's his story as confirmed by three game retailers
here in SA.  Just for the sake of the whole truth I will put the Hardbound
on a shelf and savage the softbound.  I will probably purchase the second
printing and second edition and so forth. :-)  A fool and his money???

LAN


Lan Kelly       CyberWere@ ConnectI.com      San Antonio, Texas
***********
"Diplomats are just as essential in starting a war as soldiers are in
finishing it."
Will Rogers


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #444
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Traveller-digest        Saturday, 21 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 445

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: TAS Membership for Scouts
         2. Re: PCs who kill PCs (long)
         3. Re: Tom Ellis re:Platform Wars
         4. Sectioning Traveller Sectors into Subsectors
         5. Megatraveller 2: Quest for the Ancients
         6. Re: [T96#435] Kiwis
         7. RPSC: Available for Testing
         8. Re: TAS
         9. Re: High Tech Warfare
        10. Re: Gauss Pistols
        11. RE: Spreadsheets (Excel)
        12. RPSC: What to Do
        13. RE: TAS 4 Scouts
        14. Ditto Drives, et al
        15. Netscape for OS/2
        16. Re: Question for the masses
        17. Re: Gauss Pistols

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lan Kelly <CyberWere@ConnectI.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 15:56:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: TAS Membership for Scouts

Leonard wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Interesting thoughts.  I guess this is as good a reason as any :-), just
>> really hadn't though of the TAS as snooty.  Must be a Traveller version of
>> the "Adventurer's Club".
>
>You mean that wasn't *obvious*?
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

Yea, kinda stating the obvious.  In my defense I've been spending too much
time dealing with engineers lately. :-)
LAN


Lan Kelly       CyberWere@ ConnectI.com      San Antonio, Texas
***********
"Diplomats are just as essential in starting a war as soldiers are in
finishing it."
Will Rogers


------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:52:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: PCs who kill PCs (long)

Hi all-

Well I've enjoyed the previous entries, so I decided to send this along.
This bit of insantiy was forwarded from a friend, I've no idea if it is 
true, but it certainly should be :)

Enjoy!

- -John jsnead@netcom.com

Begin Forwarded Text
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: re: Ignoble death(s)

[Here is another case of ignoble deaths,
 IMHO, the best I have ever heard.
 It comes from Mark Steuer, a friend of mine at work,
 who gave up D&D, but has not yet seen the light of GURPS,
 instead playing (I believe) RoleMaster these days.]

Mark Steuer <steuerm@nichols.com> recounts this tale:
Many years ago (back when we all were still playing D&D), I ran a game
where I pitted two groups against each other.

     Several members of Group One came up with the idea of luring Group
Two into a trap.  You remember the Hand of Vecna and the Eye of Vecna that
were artifacts in the old D&D world where if you cut off your hand (or
your eye) and replaced it with the Hand of Vecna (or the Eye) you'd get
new awesome powers?  Well, Group One thought up "The Head of Vecna." 

     Group One spread rumors all over the countryside (even paying Bards
to spread the word about this artifact rumored to exist nearby).  They
even went so far as to get a real head and place it under some weak traps
to help with the illusion.  Unfortunately, they forgot to let ALL the
members of their group in on the secret plan (I suspect it was because
they didn't want the Druid to get caught and tell the enemy about this
trap of theirs, or maybe because they didn't want him messing with
things). 

     The Druid in group One heard about this new artifact and went off
in search of it himself (I believe to help prove himself to the party
members...)  Well, after much trial and tribulation, he found it;
deactivated (or set off) all the traps; and took his "prize" off into
the woods for examination.  He discovered that it did not radiate
magic (a well known trait of artifacts) and smiled gleefully.

     I wasn't really worried since he was alone and I knew that there
was no way he could CUT HIS OWN HEAD OFF.  Alas I was mistaken as the
Druid promptly summoned some carnivorous apes and instructed them to
use his own scimitar and cut his head off (and of course quickly
replacing it with the "Head of Vecna"...)

     Some time later, Group one decided to find the Druid and to check
on the trap.  They found the headless body (and the two heads) and
realized that they had erred in their plan (besides laughing at the
character who had played the Druid)...The "Head of Vecna" still had
BOTH eyes!  They corrected this mistake and reset their traps and the
"Head" for it real intended victims...

     Group Two, by this time, had heard of the powerful artifact and
decided that it bore investigating since, if true, they could use it
to destroy Group One.  After much trial and tribulation, they found
the resting place of "The Head of Vecna!"  The were particularly
impressed with the cunning traps surrounding the site (one almost
missed his save against the weakest poison known to man).  They
recovered the "Head" and made off to a safe area.

     Group Two actually CAME TO BLOWS (several rounds of fighting)
against each other argueing over WHO WOULD GET THEIR HEAD CUT OFF!
Several greedy players had to be hurt and restrained before it was
decided who would be the recipient of the great powers bestowed by the
"Head"...  The magician was selected and one of them promptly cut his
head off.  As the player was lifting "The Head of Vecna" to emplace it
on it's new body, another argument broke out and they spent several
minutes shouting and yelling.  Then, finally, they put the "Head" onto
the character.

   Well, of course, the "Head" simply fell off the lifeless body.  All
members of Group Two began yelling and screaming at each other (and at
me) and then, on their own, decided that they had let too much time
pass between cutting off the head of a hopeful recipient and put the
"head of Vecna" onto the body.
     SO THEY DID IT AGAIN!... [killing another PC]

     In closing, it should be said that I never even cracked a smile as
all this was going on.  After the second PC was slaughtered, I had to give
in (my side was hurting)... 

     And Group Two blamed ME for all of that...

- ---------------------------
End Forwarded Text

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:16:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Tom Ellis re:Platform Wars

On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 09/20/96 at 08:46 AM,  Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com> said:
> 
> >It isn't, I run OS/2. I happen to be able to run some other platforms on
> >this more flaxible than any other OS, but nobody is breaking down doors
> >with OS/2 Traveller software.
> 
> Well, I'm not breaking down doors, but I *am* working on Traveller software
> using the Sybil (the OS/2 Delphi clone) beta.  Sybil claims it will be able
> to cross-compile for Win32 and OS/2 when it's
> released too.
> 
> I'd *really* rather stay with Pascal (Sybil/Delphi), but Java is looking
> better and better.

   Java is _real_ nice for x-platform stuff, and safe too, but it just
takes too much machine to REALLY use it currently. My dx2/66 w/8MB just
barely handles the runtime (let alone the development environment) and woe
betide the user that "only" has a 386!

   Wait until the tech matures, and everybody and his brother are running
Pentium equivalents before getting too excited about this.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 17:25:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Sectioning Traveller Sectors into Subsectors

Allen wrote:
> I seem to recall at one time obtaining a program from one of the FTP sites
> that could take the sector files and dice them up into their individual
> subsectors, thus making them usable by various subsector viewers floating
> around out there. Does anybody kbow which program this is? Does anyone know
> of any program which does this? I'm not really eager to do this by hand.

Cynthia wrote a program called "section.exe" which did this for the
sunbane data. Didn't always work, however. I ended up writing my
own version (which I called "section2.exe") for the purposes of
dividing up the sectors files so they could be processed by Galactic.
I can send you both versions as well as the sunbane (dgp) data
if you like.

For those who still haven't seen it, Galactic is still available
from my homepage:   http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv

And for those of you who were hoping on typing in some "official"
sectors for the program, Marc Miller still hasn't gotten back to
me on my question as to whether or not he'd allow this. I was
basically hoping for an e-letter of permission, but so far, dead
silence.

jimv@empirenet.com


------------------------------

From: Ronald Urwiller <urwilron@ptw.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 17:14:43 -0700
Subject: Megatraveller 2: Quest for the Ancients

Hey, anyone remember MT2?  I've got and well, I can't figure it out.  If
anyone else plays it maybe you could mail me personally. (Don't need to take
up TML time).  Thanks

Brad Urwiller
urwilron@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 20:43:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#435] Kiwis

T::> BTW did you know that the DDR was sold for 100 DM, a Banana
 ::> and a Kiwi ;-)

 Paid, no doubt, by the BRD.  They overpaid.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ What if there were no hypothetical situations?



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 20:05:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RPSC: Available for Testing

The Role-Playing Ship Combat System (RPSC) is ready to be widely tested.

While those of us involved with the design and development of this system 
(on GDW-Beta) have done playtesting, and we've argued various issues out, 
it still needs to be tested on a wider scale.  It needs your scrutiny! :)

For those unfamiliar with the system, here is a brief description:

RPSC is a miniatures-based _role-playing_ ship combat system.  Every 
aspect of the system has been created with role-playing in mind.  
Character skills are more important than equipment ratings in many cases 
- - although you'll always get the benefit of your equipment's 
capabilities.  Players will role-play their character's actions, 
including: piloting, sensor operations, gunnery, damage control, and more!

If you are interested in such a system, or if you are just curious as to 
what we've come up with, please download RPSC.  After you've spent some 
with it, post your comments.  Help us make this the best space combat 
system ever developed for a role-playing game. :)

RPSC has been uploaded to Wildstar's web site in WordPerfect and Word 
formats.  Wildstar is also going to translate it into some other 
formats.  Once he has done so, and has made them available, he will post 
a message telling you where the files can be found on his web-site.

RPSC has been formatted to print out as a booklet, including a title page, 
credits page, and table of contents.  Just print it out double-sided, 
bind it (either by taking it to a local copy center, or by simply 
stapling the sheets together) and you'll have a nicely-formatted booklet, 
ready for play.

I look forward to seeing your comments about RPSC posted to the TML.


Thanks for your time,


- -Joe

Legal stuff: Please note that RPSC is a copyrighted work.  Duplication 
rights for printing it out for individual use are granted, but all 
distribution and sales rights are restricted.  Please don't post it to a 
web site, mailing list, or other area without my permission.  And, of 
course, please don't sell copies of it. :)
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 18:28:56 -0700
Subject: Re: TAS

Ross Coburn wrote:
> 
> I kind of look like the TAS as being similar to the Victorian-era
> Geographic Society (which, I believe, exists today as National
> Geographic).

I'm not so sure about the origins of the National Geographic Society, but 
maybe we can explore the origins of the TAS.

I think of the TAS as a privatized combination of American Express and Hilton Hotels on 
steroids. The TAS may well have started out in the Mists of Time(tm) as a "strategic 
alliance," or perhaps a shotgun wedding, between two travel-industry megacorps -- one 
offering information and financial services and the other offering hospitality.

Does anyone have anything to add??

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 17:41:17 -0700
Subject: Re: High Tech Warfare

Craig Berry wrote:
> 
> > From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:49:32 -0700
> >
> [re: Orbital destruction of guerrilla bases]
> > And if the guerrilas happen to occupy an inhabited area?  Or are operating
> > in a major city?
> 
> That's the key distinction that all these discussions of high-tech
> warfare keep hitting:  There are two major categories of war, limited
> and total.  And their methods are *very* different.
> 
> In limited war, you concern yourself with collateral damage to civilans,
> refrain from using weapons of mass destruction, follow international
> conventions regarding treatment of prisoners, and so forth.  Most of
> these considerations are aimed at (a) maintaining the "moral high
> ground," that is, having your cause approved (or at least not actively
> opposed) by the wider community of nations; and (b) not tempting your
> opponent to escalate to use of total war against *you*.
> 
> In total war, the aim is absolute destruction of as much enemy
> population, equipment, and resources as possible, with no other
> constraint.
> 
> Needless to say, a force with space superiority engaded in total war
> against a planet wins, period.  Exclamation point.  See rock-dropping
> threads for details.
> 
> > Your arguement reminds me of the Army Air Corps claim that it won WWII..
> > despite evidence that the massive bombings really prolonged the war.
> 
> In what sense?  Interesting, but I'd like to see the reasoning behind
> this statement.
> 
> > Even
> > today, the Air Force can't guarntee that it will hit a target more than 50%
> > of the time, and you are proposing striking small guerrila units with
> > orbital stikes?  the guerillas are *winning*, since they are tying down your
> > assets, and causing you to have to act in an overbearing manner.
> 
> As recent Gulf War revelations have shown, targeting isn't what it's
> cracked up to be at TL8.  However, the 50% rate depends on the target.
> Ask the Air Force to shut down an airport, and they'll do it, no problem.
> Ask them to to turn a large command post to rubble, ditto.  Ask for a
> precise hit on a mobile SCUD launcher the size of a moving van, things get
> trickier.
> 
> > [On the need to invade a planet]
> > Your comment about tech superiority makes me smile and remember the parades
> > we had on Vietnam Victory Day, after our technologicaly superior force, with
> > almost uncontested air superiority, defeated the Viet Cong and their North
> > Vietnamese allies..

> 
> Here was a classic example of one side (the US) waging a (very) limited
> war, while the other side (Viet Cong, NVKD) fought a total war.  If Hanoi
> had found a stray nuke, there's no doubt in my mind they'd have lobbed it
> into Saigon...or Los Angeles, given a delivery system. 

<<deletia>>

> Meanwhile, the US
> was hamstrung by massive restraint in type, quantity, and target of force
> applied.  Hence the low-tech win in this case.  If we'd been willing to
> aggressively bomb every factory, supply point, road and rail junction,
> and military camp in the North, we'd have won.  Easily.  Now, as for
> stopping it from all happening again the minute we pulled our troops out,
> that's a *very* different question...

The US _did_ bomb the living snot out every worthwhile target in the North in late 1972. 
Operation Linebacker II in December 1972 brought the North Vietnamese to the table 
knowing that the US could blast them into the Stone Age if it so chose.

> See also the Jews under Roman occupation, the French under German
> occupation during WWII (which Doug alluded to), Plains Indians during the
> 19th century, the Afghans during Soviet occupation...

 . . . the Scots under Emglish domination, the Irish under the English, . . . 


> 
> The Soviets pioneered a form of air defense called "The Golden BB."  Many
> of their client states had *very* low-tech air defense weapons, from
> badly outdated SAMs all the way down to machine guns.  The Golden BB
> approach involves *filling* the air above the target with bullets,
> missiles, AAA shells, *anything*...not even making much of an attempt to
> aim, just shooting up.  With 15 tuns of junk in the air, odds are that at
> least a few planes will run into some of it.  The Iraqis used this tactic
> during the initial raids on Baghdad during the Gulf War.  As it happened,
> they didn't peg any planes...but they *could* have.

North Vietnam did this, too. Everybody and his brother had an AK, which was fired into 
the air whenever an Imperialist Air Pirate(tm) flew over.


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 17:33:25 -0700
Subject: Re: Gauss Pistols

Ronald Urwiller wrote:
> 
> In the TNE rulebook the Gauss Pistol is listed as having a high recoil
> factor.  Anyone find this odd?  I mean,  I thought the whole idea behind
> using a magnectic accelerator was to create a low recoil, silent weapon.
> Also how come most guns that fire automatic can only fire SS with tranqs.
> Any thoughts or answers would be appreciated.

No.
My reason can be summed up in three words: Newton's Third Law. The electromag 
acceleration mechanism _does not_ dampen out the reaction to the bullet going out the 
barrel of the weapon. Given that gauss weapons impart a lot of velocity to a small 
round, the energy of which is proportional to the square of the velocity, it would stand 
it reason that gauss weapons -- unless the propulsive energy is dialed down, would be 
high recoil.

Yes, the gauss is a silent, but _hard-hitting_ slugthrower, but the EPR (electromagnetic 
propelled round, as a contrast to chemically-propelled round) weapon still has to deal 
with ol' Issac Newton.

As to your question with tranqs . . . I'd imagine that tranq rounds, because they 
deliver a chemical, do not feed as well in automatic-weapons actions.

Hope this helps!

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com

> 
> Brad Urwiller
> urwilron@ptw.com



------------------------------

From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 14:48:07 +1200
Subject: RE: Spreadsheets (Excel)

>From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@Communique.se>
>Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:10:27 +0200
>Subject: Spreadsheets (Excel)
>
>I have a question for you all..
>
>I am in the process of making a lot of spreadsheets for Megatraveller,
>Traveller-the new era. and wonder if anyone are interested in that
>subject. It's not going to be a simple shit only displaying the stats of
>the process, but the whole shebang with calculations and lists to get
>the info from. In short..
>
>It will take an instant to make a starship, vehicle, weapon, star
>system, home planet, or what ever.
Hi,

My feedback on this is a big YES!!!!!

We ,out here, (who have not got T4) still must dream of other things. This
would be a great bonus and be very handy.



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 21:47:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RPSC: What to Do

So, you've downloaded RPSC from Wildstar's web-site, now what do you do? :)

After reading it and playtesting it, it'd be really nice if you could 
post any errors you find.  For example:

1)  Any typographical or layout errors
2)  Anything you feel isn't clearly stated or sufficiently explained
3)  Any errors of logic
etc.

Naturally, after spending 37 hours on the document in the last six days, 
there remain errors.  After spending that much time on it, there just 
HAD to be errors.  Grrr.  'Course, that's why this is version 0.90. :)

The known errors include:

1)  On page two, the sentence that begins "Unless directed otherwise, 
look up the range..." should read: "Unless directed otherwise, look up 
the range at which the action is taking place by using the Range 
Description and Scale Table, then find that range in th first column of 
the Range-Based Task Difficulty Table."

2)  On page four, in the fourth paragraph under Step 1, about 1/2 way 
through, it reads "The Armor Rating for the each is simply..."  That 
should, of course, read, "The Armor Rating for each," in other words, 
delete that second "the."

There are also a few formatting errors - missing carriage returns, titles 
at the bottom of pages, etc.

Why?  Well, since we corrected all these errors at one time or another, 
the only thing we can figure out is that when Windows crashed (it crashed 
five times today, for example - and we have 32MB of RAM!), we loaded the 
wrong automatically backed up copy, getting a previous version without 
knowing it.

I apologize for this.

Rest assured that such errors will NOT be in the final copy.  The 
reason they exist at this point is simply that I wanted RPSC to be 
available today, and I knew that it was only version 0.90.  So, we didn't 
do a final edit.  When it comes time for version 1.0, I'll try very hard 
not to let such errors creep into it. :(


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 14:48:10 +1200
Subject: RE: TAS 4 Scouts

I tend to agree with the previous statements. I've always thought of the
TAS as being a sort of National Geographic meets travel agency, it can show
you all the best sights in the universe, and help you get there with the
least fuss and most comfort.

>Isn't this a club for "Travellers"? Aren't scouts really good at that sort
>of thing?
Yes, this is true, but the type of travelling that Scout do is not like
that of normal travellers. You join the Scout service because you have an
undeniable urge to explore and adventure, where else is better to do this
than in the great "unknown of unexplored space. A retired navy admiral may
like a bit of easy R&R fishing or game hunting, but in a controlled type
environment. A Scout goes for the uncharted wilderness for his/her thrills.

The TAS has information and data on all the popular and uniquely different
planets. I figure Scouts will prefer to holiday in areas where there is
little knowledge of the area, certainly, detached Scouts from the
exploration branch do this.

Also, it is in the best interest of the Scout service that many of its
detached duty members keep exploring and adventuring. This way, the Scout
service would slowly build up a database on the unexplored regions, and
depending on the information brought back, a major exploration mission
could be launched. Therefore, the Scout service would have its own TAS type
service at each Scout base and Waystation. This would provide scouts with
information on regions were the service is wanting to expand into and would
like some information on. This information could be sold for money, fuel,
maintenance or parts. Therefore keeping up the desire for exploration
amongst the detached duty members.

I kind of envisage a Scout character entering a Scout base, checking the
bulletin board for places of interest, and then heading off into the deep,
dark unknown. On his/her return, he goes to the information centre,
undergoes a type of debrief. Depending on the type and amount of
information given, an amount of Scout-credits or vouchers are given out to
pay for things at Scout bases.

These are just my thoughts on this matter.


Thanks in advance,


 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Blair Lynch-Blosse, BSc (MSc student)         lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz
  Earth Sciences Department
  University of Waikato
  Private Bag 3105
  Hamilton                                            175.19'E 37.47'S
  NEW ZEALAND                "Trust No One. Deny Everything" - X-Files
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: nrunner@ix.netcom.com (Archie T.)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:52:22 -0700
Subject: Ditto Drives, et al

I was wondering who else on this list has ditto drives.....maybe we can 
get together and combine our traveller software/misc. I have an 800meg 
system, and was wondering about the systems and desires of traveller 
fans out there, pre-traveller CD. Feel free to email 
me..nrunner@ix.netcom.com
- -- 
_____________________________________________________________________
Copywight - 1994 Elmer Fudd ink.  All wights wesewved.                                            

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:58:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Netscape for OS/2

Sorry for the off topicness, but with the recent discussions on operating
systems,

For those of you who are using OS/2, the beta of Netscrape Navigator for
OS/2 Warp is available at:

http://www.internet.ibm.com/browsers/netscape/warp/

Enjoy.



_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:21:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Question for the masses

Trent Smith wrote:
> 
>     I was just wondering something and thought this'd be the place to ask:
>   How many people who have hardbound copies of T4 on reserve from Imperium
> Games have broken down and bought a softback copy anyway just 'cause you're
> tired of waiting?(snip)
> 
> Still eager,
> Trent Smith

I know how you feel.  Me friendly store owner (I think I bought so much stuff
there that he doesn't have a choice but to like me) told me a friend of his
cancelled his order for a hardcopy and bought a softcover.

I wonder if the people of IG read what is going on here but if they do, they
should know by now that the hardcore traveller player are getting unhappy (and
they are supposed to court us into accepting their game!).

I feel cheated at this point and let down.  I bought the hardcover (ordered it
is more proper) with the impression I would be getting it in advance.  I am 
disappointed.  Maybe the folks at IG should come forward and explain to us what
the problem is instead of leaving us in the dark.

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

------------------------------

From: Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:28:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Gauss Pistols

Ronald Urwiller wrote:
> 
> In the TNE rulebook the Gauss Pistol is listed as having a high recoil
> factor.  Anyone find this odd?  I mean,  I thought the whole idea behind
> using a magnectic accelerator was to create a low recoil, silent weapon.
> Also how come most guns that fire automatic can only fire SS with tranqs.
> Any thoughts or answers would be appreciated.
> 
> Brad Urwiller
> urwilron@ptw.com
 One thing jumps to mind. It may be the the effect of multiple doses of
the tranquilizer on the target. One round might do the job but a three
round burst may be fatal.
 On the Pistol it might a question of barrel lenght, more energy is
required to bring the slug up to speed over the short barrel lenght, so
more felt recoil.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #445
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Traveller-digest         Sunday, 22 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 446

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: An irreverent look at Bar Encounters
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #444
         3. Hand-Made Crunch Guns
         4. Re: PC's Who Kill PC's
         5. RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #442
         6. Re: News flash
         7. WTB: BATTLE RIDER
         8. The Missing Hardcover Mystery
         9. Re: Variant Gravities
        10. Re: Gauss Pistols
        11. Re: Birth of a Colony...
        12. Re: Gauss Pistols
        13. Re: Spacing the OS2 & Linux dudes?
        14. Re: Spacing the OS2 & Linux dudes? Cold, man cold!
        15. Mortgage Skippers, Skip Tracers and More
        16. The T4 Hardback Is Here!
        17. Gauss
        18. Traveller Suite Platforms
        19. 15mm Traveller Miniatures

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:20:28 -0500
Subject: Re: An irreverent look at Bar Encounters

>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
>Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 06:46:21 -0800
>Subject: Re: An irreverent look at Bar Encounters
>
>Actually, as somebody who still uses MT, I don't think you're table 
>for MT is quite accurate:
>
>Here is my amended take on the MT bar encounter table:
>
>Randon Baar Encounter Table:
>
>Yep, that's right.  The table is completely missing.  They just plain 
>forgot...
>

LOL!!

I had thought about this, but I really needed the creative outlet.  It was
almost time to work and I had some creativity left over and I would hate to
waste it on the company. :)


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:20:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #444

>From: "Jeffrey Cornish" <Boy_Scout@msn.com>
>Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 18:29:16 UT
>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #442
>
>The Tai-Pan has a great advantage over her competition...salvaged MilTech 
>engines.  Whoo boy can she burn for orbit.  And there are (undefined) 
>advantages when she uses her Jump Drive (a _true_ jump drive--near instant 
>transit to your destination, however you have to get about 50AU out before you 
>can use it.  Travel time is around two weeks--one outbound, jump, one inbound)

This makes me wonder...  are there "junk yards" in the Traveller universe?

I'm not sure about other countries...well, really I don't know about
anywhere but here in the south, but anyway, down here in the south, we have
auto junk yards where cars that have been "totaled" (wrecked beyond
reasonable repair) are taken and you can go there to get the useable parts
off the car.  That is, a car that got rear ended and the back of the car
(including the axel) is crunched, is gonna have some good engine parts.  I
wonder if there is something like this in the Traveller Universe where ship
owners could go to buy used upgrades for their ship at discount prices?
Comment?


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: scharlto@rtd.com (Steve Charlton)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 21:20:55 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Hand-Made Crunch Guns

eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)asks:

Slightly off subject, but...  Is it true that the Afghans got hand made
20mm *rifles* from craftsmen in Pakistan.  And that they shot down a number
of helicopters with them?  Lie down on the side of mountain, balance the
rife between your feet and pop Hinds flying by.
- -----
Well, I haven't heard about helicopters being taken out, but there were a 
number of reports about handmade rifles chambered for the 14.5x114 round 
that the Soviets used in their KPV "Machinegun" (well, small autocannon 
really).  IIRC, the mujahadeen were stealing the ammo from the Soviets and 
their Afgahn allies, but not getting it in enough quantity to waste as 
machinegun ammo.  The round in question is particularly nasty; it could 
easily blow through an engine block of a jeep or truck, and in many cases 
would punch right through the armor of a BTR or BRDM.  Kind of an ultralight 
ATR for use against light armor.  I'll have to root through some of my old 
"Janes"; I seem to recall that somebody from the West brought one of these 
back for analysis as a possible sniper weapon concept.

As for the Pakistani gunmakers; they had (and probably still have) an 
amazing cottage industry there making copies of any weapon you might bring 
in to them.  The interesting part was that the Afghans would bring in 
weapons made largely of stamped and machined parts, and get hand-made 
duplicates that worked as well or better than some of the originals.
Steven T. Charlton
I don't recall installing this 
"General Protection Fault" Screen Saver
scharlto@avalon.com (work)  scharlto@rtd.com (home)


------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 00:42:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: PC's Who Kill PC's

Heck, I hate it wehn this happens. I mis-remembered the ending of the story
(it was late when I posted)...

>After a while, the professor is jerked from his revery by the light touch
>of cold metal against his forehead. The cabby is pointing the gun between
>his eyes, grinning maniacally.
>"Cold night, ain't it professuh?"
>"ISN'T."
>BLAM.

As I was reminded today, this isn't quite accurate. Actually, the cabby
points the gun at the other PC's head--though at that moment Terry is just
fooling around, and does not really have any intention of pulling the
trigger--and says, "Say Professuh, you ain't gonna correct my grammar no
more, is you?"

"ARE you."

BLAM.

[I just had to set the record straight. Somehow, this is just so much
more... poignant.]

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."



------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 00:42:52 -0400
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #442

Ronald Urwiller <urwilron@ptw.com> said:
>Also how come most guns that fire automatic can only fire SS with tranqs.
>Any thoughts or answers would be appreciated.

I've always pictured tranq rounds as being low velocity rounds with a
reduced propellant charge.  The reduced recoil isn't enough to work the
action properly, hence the single shot.


Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

"Guy Fawkes - the only person to enter Parliament with honest intentions"



------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 01:58:11 -0400
Subject: Re: News flash

To whom was the following msg directed?  I post to traveller@mpgn.com.  Who
is re2? 
- - Bill

At 01:50 PM 9/20/96 EST, you wrote:
>  You are giving my adress as you email receiver box so please work out 
>the problem so that I stop receiving all your repliers. thanks
>  re2
>
>


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 02:51:25 -0400
Subject: WTB: BATTLE RIDER

Through a series of circumstances too annoying to relate, I no longer have a
copy of BATTLE RIDER. I can't find one anywhere around here. Does anyone out
there have one they'd be willing to part with, or knows of a store that has one?
I'd prefer within the US. I can send you the money to pick it up, or will
pay up to $20 for a used copy. Thanks!
                                Allen

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 03:24:22 -0400
Subject: The Missing Hardcover Mystery

>I feel cheated at this point and let down.  I bought the hardcover (ordered it
>is more proper) with the impression I would be getting it in advance.  I am 
>disappointed.  Maybe the folks at IG should come forward and explain to us what
>the problem is instead of leaving us in the dark.

Tell me about it! I ordered mine in late May! I do know, from a phone
conversation I had with a very nice woman at IG, that the reason they were
not at Gen-Con and were late was due at least in part to a printing error-a
fairly major one, I'm told. I also have heard that the printers just
flat-out didn't have the books done on time. Then of course there's the wait
for Marc to sign umpty-odd hundred copies. I'm sure he has other things to
do than to hang out in Lake Geneva all the time. I beleive he still lives in
the Chicago area.
        That still doesn't make me any less unhappy about the delay, and yes
I did buy a softcover. I was actually planning to anyway; I'm not letting my
players get their sweaty palms on my hardcover! But I bought it when I did
because I was eager to begin playing my Year 0 campaign, and couldn't wait
for the hardcover.
        They'll arrive eventually. But if this is what we can expect from
IG's printer, I have some serious advice;
        Get a new printer!
                                Allen


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:13:28 PST
Subject: Re: Variant Gravities

In mail you write:

> I realise my Jumping in Variant Gravities house rule is not an entirely
> accurate reflection of the real physics of low or high gravities. It's not
> intended as such. It's just a quick-and-dirty solution for those times when
> a player asks, "So, can I jump this lunar chasm, or not?" I'm interested in
> playability. I'm not interested in stopping the game to write a paper on
> the Problem of Low-G Athletics.
>
> The problem is of course very complicated and interesting to think about.
> But if my house rule is completely wonky (which it certainly is, especially
> towards the lower end of the scale), can you suggest a better one?

I'd basicly say that at anything under 1/10th g "running" is out of the
question, instead you do a bunch of kangaroo hops, but only if you've
had lots of practice. Otherwise you move very slowly and clumsily. That
solves the "running jump" bit.

And nobody is gonna want to try jumping at more than three gees, as the
odds of breaking something are too great.

Standing broad jumps can be scaled the way you were doing it. It ain't
correct, but it'll do well enough. For high jumps, you scale it
according to gravity, but remember that what counts is not the *total*
height, but the change in height for the relevant part of the body.
That scales linearly, but you have to take the character's *size* into
account.

Remember my example for jumping up to grab something or jumping over
something?  It's not that complicated, but it does get across the truth
that you can't make 20 foot jumps in low gee.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:28:39 PST
Subject: Re: Gauss Pistols

In mail you write:

> In the TNE rulebook the Gauss Pistol is listed as having a high recoil
> factor.  Anyone find this odd?  I mean,  I thought the whole idea behind
> using a magnectic accelerator was to create a low recoil, silent weapon.

Recoil depends on the mass of the weapon, the mass of the projectile,
and the muzzle velocity. Gauss weapons have a somewhat smoother recoil
because the projectile is being continuously accelerated for the full
length of the barrel. So the shorter the barrel, the worse the recoil.

As for silent, *any* supersonic projectile will *not* be silent. And
the higher the velocity, the less silent.

> Also how come most guns that fire automatic can only fire SS with tranqs.
> Any thoughts or answers would be appreciated.  

This one is easy. The mechanism on an automatic uses the recoil from
one round to load the next and cock the action. Since tranq rounds
*must* have a much lower muzzle energy (or else they'd punch large,
ugly holes in the target) they don't provide enough recoil to work the
action. Same thing goes for blanks in most semi-auto rifles unless you
put a special partial plug over the end of the barrel.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:27:01 PST
Subject: Re: Birth of a Colony...

In mail you write:

>>Myself, I intend to handle it as a split level

<snip>

> Agreement. Added complication: what about the Tech 3's that get comfortable
> at that level and resent the Tech 10's attempts to raise them for their own
> good?

Won't happen. There will be things they don't want to change, but damn
few of them will be against things that make life easier. Take a good
look at the trouble the Amish have maintaining their numbers.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:47:33 PST
Subject: Re: Gauss Pistols

In mail you write:

> Also how come most guns that fire automatic can only fire SS with tranqs.
> Any thoughts or answers would be appreciated.

One further note. As I noted, tranq rounds don't provide enough recoil
to work the action. The same is frequently true when using a silenced
weapon. Since you need to use sub-sonic rounds, for may have to work
the action by hand for each shot.

Also, forget about trying to silence a revolver. You can't get a good
enough seal between the cylinder and the barrel.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:23:02 PST
Subject: Re: Spacing the OS2 & Linux dudes?

In mail you write:

>      Which reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask for ages: does
> anyone know what the exact effects of prolonged exposure to vacuum on a
> corpse would be?  Would the corpse freeze or just dessicate?

If the temp is low enough to let them freeze, they'll freeze. And given
time, they'll dessicate. In fact, that's *how* you freeze-dry
something. You freeze it, then put it in a vacuum and let the water
sublime. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 08:40:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Spacing the OS2 & Linux dudes? Cold, man cold!

Eris Reddoch wrote:

>On 09/21/96 at 08:02 AM,  rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott) said:
>
>>    Which reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask for ages: does
>>anyone know what the exact effects of prolonged exposure to vacuum on a
>>corpse would be?  Would the corpse freeze or just dessicate?
>
>Geeze, you're Canadian you ought to know this.  I know it's cold up there
>and being so far north I'm sure there's very little air. <wink>


        True, but we've got this wonderful atmosphere plant up in Quebec
City that churns out megaliters of superheated air every legislative
session.  Admittedly, it's rather badly tainted air, but at least we've got
the pressure problem solved that way :).


>
>I'd say, first they:  freeze - if in the the shade or far enough out or fry
>- - if close in to the sun.  Then they desiccate.
>
>I suspect the longterm result would be pretty bad.  When the water freezes,
>the cells, blood vessels, etc would break and you'd have pretty much a bag
>of pulp that would then desiccate into the
>consistency of jerky.


        Interesting... so you could just put'em in a net, leave'em hanging
outboard for a while, and then haul'em in and cut'em into strips :)?


*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 10:44:35 -0400
Subject: Mortgage Skippers, Skip Tracers and More

Greetings All:

Regarding Claim Jumpers...

- --begin pasted material--

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:55:31 +1300
Subject: Re: Just give me the pink slip!

> The Scout is "free" because the ship remains the property of the
> Imperium, and the ship as well as the character can be called back into
> service when needed.  This is "canon."

Of course, the Imperium has to be able to find 'em first.

> The Free Trader isn't free, because the character actually owns the ship
> (well, he owns the mortgage anyway[G]). 

Once again, just watch them try and collect the payments. Call it 
organic adventure material. In the words of Lenny Bruce: "Screw 'em. 
They can afford it!"

- --end pasted material--

The problem is banks (and the Imperium) should have already thought of this
or they'd quickly go broke!

For the Imperium I envision that all through your training you
are--ahem--brainwashed--into thinking how nice it is that the Imperium lends
you this ship. When you muster out you sign all sorts of nice legal papers
allowing the Imperium to freeze your bank accounts (hey, they're the
government--they probably don't even need your signature!), etc., if you
don't return during a declared emergency.

So, unless you are of poor moral fiber to begin with, you'll obey the calls.
If I remember correctly, at least in Classic Trav, couldn't ex-Scouts always
refuel at a Imperial Scout Base? That would provide the Imperium of a way of
tracking you. If you failed to obey a summons for a major situation, they
could get you by issuing a wanted message via the Jump Boats to each world
along the jump boat routes. Then the Navy could practice interception
techniques and the Marines could have some fun doing boarding!

As for banks, I can think of many ways of screwing up your life if you fail
to make payments. I envision many banks in the Imperium as having connections
with the Imperium (like banks in the US have connections with the Federal
Reserve, etc.). If you fail to make a payment on your ship, several things
could happen. First, the next time you jump into a system that is serviced by
a X-Boat and try to draw some money from your account--your account is
frozen. The shipyard that you landed in to do repairs has locked you ship--as
salvage! Even the hotels don't recognize your credit cards, debit cards, cash
cards, etc. The local stormtroopers are eying you as a means to get a
promotion. The skip tracers (and other bounty hunter types) hired by the bank
are checking your face versus a list they carry.

There could be other high tech means of prevention as well. Look at cars
today--ID numbers are engraved in several areas to help trace cars when they
get stolen. A bank might install a tamper-resistent (I say resistent, as
there's always the good old FGMP lock remover!) device on the ship. You have
to make your payment to the bank each quarter (or other time period). If you
do not, a signal is sent out activating the device. Again, as bank branches
along the X-Boat route get notice of you being a skipper, they could start
broadcasting it in their respective systems. When you enter a system with the
active broadcast and your ship's code, boom! Your jump drive goes down! Or
your ship starts broadcasting a beeping noise on the IFF band that indicates
payment failure, salvage me!

Or even simpler, the device that the bank installs is like a lock on a bank
vault. Every quarter (or so) you pay the bank. The bank rep visits you and
resets the lock. If you miss a payment and he or she misses their visit, the
locks clicks and and one day--boom! No jump drive! Weird signals emanating
from your radio! Hot showers running cold, food processors spewing endless
tuna sandwiches (and leaving out the mayo), until you pay up and the clock is
reset...

If you have credit and debts, peace of mind comes with maintaining payments.
If you are a lone ship, I can think of no worse fate than always looking over
your should for that bank rep or the person from the megacorp that you
shortchanged...

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)

(BTW, MAC USER for those keeping track!)



------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 10:43:56 -0400
Subject: The T4 Hardback Is Here!

I have Seen the Hardback

Actually I've GOT! the hardback! And then I lost it!

It was the most amazing thing. I was sitting in my home office, reading TML,
and bemoaning the fact that the hardback was not yet here. Then the doorbell
rang. This was strange for two reasons. First, we don't have a doorbell.
Second, the dogs weren't reacting to the noise (usually the first stage of
canine hypermode).

I answered the door. My jaw dropped in amazement. Standing on the stoop was a
man with greased-back hair, razor sharp sideburns, sunglasses and a sneer
plastered on his face.

"Elvi..." I started to say.

His hand snacked out and clamped over my mouth. "Shhh!!!" he said. "Don't say
a word! They might hear you!"

Quickly he explained that he wasn't really "him", but his clone. It seems
that E was captured by aliens some years ago and cloned. He was touring
interstellar nightclubs, fronting a group called Dred Zepplin, playing reggae
versions of Led Zepplin songs. Then he escaped and made his way to the Land
of RPGs, in the West/Central US. He's now working for Imperium Games (on the
sly, of course).

He handed me my two copies of the Traveller hardback. It was more than I
dreamed! Not only were all the typos fixed, but they managed to fit Starships
and the revised FF&S in the book! And in the back was a CD-ROM, readable by
both MAC and WINDOWS machines, including copies of every previously published
item for Traveller! And the (in)famous Traveller Suite--also readable by
multiple platforms!

"Than..." I started to say.

"Shhhh!" he interjected again. "Not a word, not a whisper. Enjoy. Keep the
Flame." And with that he sped off on his Imperium Games motor scooter. (After
the dust settled, I noticed that it had no wheels, nor did it touch the
ground. My watch had also stopped.)

I settled down to read the book in detail. While working my way through the
expanded Library Data, the doorbell rang again. Once again the dogs did not
bark. I went to answer it.

Two men were standing there. Both wore black--black suits, black socks, black
shirts, black shoes, black hats. There faces were shadowed. One was very tall
and wide, the other average in height and build.

"Where is it?" the large one demanded.

"Gah!" I managed to squeak out as I failed my initiative roll and his hand
grabbed me by the throat. He lifted me off the ground by several inches, not
unlike Darth V. in the first SW movie.

I managed to point towards the coffee table. The second man moved in and
scooped up both copies of the book.

"Tell no one! Trust no one! We will be watching!" the tall one shouted. He
let go of me and I fell to the floor, gasping for breath. As I fell, I
knocked the hat off the average looking man.

It was Alex Trebeck! Of Jeopardy!

He bent over, giving me a cryptic smile, scooped up his hat and jammed it
back on his head. They turned and went into their car--a black (of course)
extra-stretch limo with reflect windows. They backed out of the driveway and
sped off. Of course, when the dust settled, I noticed that their car had no
wheels.

So they warned me not to tell you. But I had to get the word out. If Elvis
delivers, hide the goods! Watch for the men in black! They are following and
they are wat



------------------------------

From: Ronald Urwiller <urwilron@ptw.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 08:04:27 -0700
Subject: Gauss

Thanks for your help everyone.  In my defense I did know about Newtowns Law.
What I didn't know was wether the Gauss weapons had recoil suppressors or
something of this type.  I say this because I was reading in a book (I
believe 'High Energy Beam Weapons' circa 1988) and it mentioned a military
interest in spacebased railguns (ie. Star Wars). Suppossedly it was favored
because it was reusable and had little or no affect on the satellites orbit
(thus I think little recoil).  According to the authors specs of the weapon
it didn't appear to have much more than an ammo pod, barrel, powersource,
and correctional thrusters.  While I realize that perhaps the thrusters were
used to negate the affect I should think this would be uneconomical.  This
system was supposed to stay up for years thus sending up repeated missions
to refuel the satellite would get quite expensive.  

To reiterate this is to confirm something a book said (should have said that
in the first place :) not my own thoughts.  Any of your thoughts?

Ps.  What about capital ship gauss cannons?  I've heard talk of using
Kenetic Kill Missles . . . Imagine, the power supply of a ship that high
accelerating a KKM to speed then launching it into space.  Phase to the KKM
makes course corrections and activates its own boosters.  This I would think
would boost the damage rating and the endurance of the missle although since
I do not have FFS I cannot confirm.  

Brad Urwiller 
urwilron@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 11:11:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Traveller Suite Platforms

Count me as another Mac user who wants to see the Traveller Suite
available on the Macintosh platform.  (Why would you want to piss off your
Mac-using fans, guys?)

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu


------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 10:17:33 -0500
Subject: 15mm Traveller Miniatures

Here's an interesting discussion that was going on in
rec.games.miniatures.misc.

It started out as a plea to bring back Martian Metals, but ended with an
interesting note about the old Citadel Traveller 15mm line.

For those of you not familiar with the line, it was *great*.

Anybody care to bring it back?

John Kovalic

*********************************************


>In article <5189iv$p2m@useneta1.news.prodigy.com>, PDJJ22C@prodigy.com
>(David Mathews) wrote:
>
>> >> can find 'em. Wonder if the molds still exist... Somebody have Marc
>> >> Miller's ear?
>>
>> >From what I heard, Martian Metals burnt down, and the molds were
>> >destroyed.
>>
>> I heard from someone who shall remain nameless, but who knows first hand
>> that many of the molds had been moved before the fire, and only equipment
>> and inventory burned up. Thus, the molds are still out there. I had names
>> and phone numbers, but the #'s are all no good.
>>
>> Also, I heard that the molds had been stored in a barn for the last ten
>> years or so. If that is true, then they are gone.
>
>Aaah, the Martian Metals molds weren't that great. They were cheap, but
>even for 15mm at the time, they were a bit basic.

Most of the figures looked like squashed bugs to me.

>Now, if somebody could get their hands on the old 15mm CITADEL Traveller
>molds, *that* would kick butt!
>
>John K.

I know where they were last used, not sure if they are still around.  The
casting of all the Citadel Traveller stuff was done by RAFM in Canada.
Always frustrating to me that although the figures were produced closer to
my house than the Martian Metals I couldn't leagally buy them in this
country because of the licencing agreements.  Of course as a good friend of
several of the RAFM and GDW staff actually getting them was never a
big problem.  For those of you who have never seen these the difference
between them an Martian metals is the difference between Wargames Foundary
figures and the worst comparable figure you could find.  They were
animated, had wonderful character and basicially just kick butt (they were
much better than the other 15mm line some of the people here have raved
about).
						Tom Harris


***************************************************



******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #446
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Traveller-digest         Sunday, 22 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 447

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #440
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #440
         3. Character Generation Problems for Errata for T4
         4. T4 Hardbacks
         5. Re: Gauss Pistols
         6. Re: Gauss Pistols
         7. Re: Is it true?
         8. Still More Assorted
         9. Re: Gauss Pistols
        10. Freelance Traveller is here!
        11. Re: Gauss pistols
        12. Re: Gauss
        13. Server Crash (Again)
        14. Re: Re: Question for the masses
        15. Re: 15mm Traveller Miniatures
        16. TAS Snootiness.
        17. Explanations for UWPs for Freelance Traveller.
        18. Effects of high G on humans?
        19. Re: Bringing back Martian Metal's and Citadel 15mm Mini's
        20. Lost mail
        21. Re: Hand-Made Crunch Guns

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 96 16:02 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #440

In-Reply-To: <9609201708.AA03648@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #422

> Been there, done that. In a Shadowrun game I was in, we stormed a
> building full of Bad Guys(tm). Unfortunately, between our recon and
> the attack, someone had moved a bunch of nuns and a few dozen
> orphans into the building. Most've them were greasy stains by the
> time we'd discovered they weren't illusions, robots, or disguised
> villains...

How did they handle this afterwards? >>

Who, the PCs? IIRC, we went 'oh shit!', retreated, tried to figure out 
what happened, and decided the GM wasn't going to leave the room 
alive...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 96 16:02 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #440

In-Reply-To: <9609201708.AA03648@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #422

> Been there, done that. In a Shadowrun game I was in, we stormed a
> building full of Bad Guys(tm). Unfortunately, between our recon and
> the attack, someone had moved a bunch of nuns and a few dozen
> orphans into the building. Most've them were greasy stains by the
> time we'd discovered they weren't illusions, robots, or disguised
> villains...

How did they handle this afterwards? >>

Who, the PCs? IIRC, we went 'oh shit!', retreated, tried to figure out 
what happened, and decided the GM wasn't going to leave the room 
alive...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:17:31 -0700
Subject: Character Generation Problems for Errata for T4

Greetings, Oh Great Imperial Ones,

During the character creation process for "Marc Miller's Traveller," we
discovered several problems we would like you to address.  No, this "we" is
not the Imperial "we", but just my gaming group. <grin>  Okay, here they are:

1.  Does the Flight School (T4, pg. 28) endow +1 to Education to reflect the
year spent in school?  All the other "post-graduation" schools do.

2.  In T4, pg. 31 in the first merchant table, the first "skill" is listed
as -1 Dex.  Is this right, should a "benefit" ever hurt you?  This same
problem occurs on pg. 33, in the first Noble table (-1 Str) and on pg. 34 in
the first Scholar table both -1 Str and -1 Dex.  Maybe this was the
intention of the authors, but it just seems inconsistent to me.

3.  In T4, pg. 31 on the Benefits Table, in the Mustering out section on
item 6.  Is this supposed to be "Low Passage?"  Many of the other careers
have "High Passage" listed in that slot, should this be changed to "High
Passage?"

4.  During the Mustering out process, if someone rolls Traveller's Aid
Society twice what should happen?  I have also encountered a problem of when
a person's characteristic has reached maximum (F) and they have rolled to
increase it again.  I think I am going to handle it by just having them
re-roll on the table.  Am I missing something in the book that clarifies this?

5.  Small suggestion about "Injury" during the character creation process.
I've begun thinking of these as "Career Crises."  This seem to capture what
is actually happening to your character.  Injury implies a lost
characteristic to me, and this is never the case.  I created a Merchant last
night, that went through the Merchant Academy with honors only be kicked out
of the Merchants during his first term.  I think this character was caught
sleeping with the daughter of a high placed corporate type, and that is why
he had to leave a promising career in the Merchants and enlist in the
Scouts.  <grin>

Sincerely,





Matthew Mactyre
mmactyre@concentric.net
http://www.cris.com/~mmactyre/
PGP public key available on request


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:18:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4 Hardbacks

I'm not too concerned about the T4 hardbacks I ordered, because I have 
the softcover to use for now.  I still want the hardbacks, of course, but 
waiting a while longer won't kill me.

Still, Fred's excelent post inspired me to produce more silliness regarding 
the cause of the delay, so I humbly present:


The Top 10 Reasons the T4 Hardbacks Haven't Arrived Yet
- -------------------------------------------------------
10.  The hardbacks were shipped three months ago.  The
     Postal Service just hasn't gotten around to 
     delivering them.
 9.  Everyone at IG is too busy playing Traveller to
     do any shipping.
 8.  Everything in IG's warehouse was confiscated by TSR,
     which claims Traveller infringes on their "Role-
     Playing Games" patent.
 7.  Joe Walsh, worried that four copies of the softcover
     wasn't enough, broke into the IG's office and stole 
     all the T4 hardbacks and now is hoarding them.
 6.  IG has hired Elvis to personally deliver them, and
     he plans to do so right after he visits a few more
     Quicky Marts in Iowa.
 5.  The printing presses were infected with Virus.
 4.  There aren't really any T4 hardbacks.  It was all just
     a Zhodani conspiracy.
 3.  Ever alert for changing consumer demands, Ken Whitman 
     stopped the presses so he could add a 24-page chapter 
     on Drinking Establishments.
 2.  The monks hired to transcribe the manuscript are on 
     strike.

And the #1 reason the T4 hardbacks haven't arrived...

 1.  To avoid causing a flame war on TML, Marc Miller won't
     be signing the hardbacks until he's researched what 
     the "canon" indicates his signature should be.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)





------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 18:29:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Gauss Pistols

On Sat, 21 Sep 96 14:23:55 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 09/21/96 at 07:05 AM,  jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said:
> 
> >According to the old law written by that old guy with the wild white hair,
> >"every action has an equal and opposite reaction". 
> 
> Naw!  That was the Englishman with the lump on his head, not the guy with
> the wild hair.  <g>

THUD! THUD! THUD!

	(sound of bashing one's own head against the wall)

THUD! THUD! THUD!...



------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 18:34:52 GMT
Subject: Re: Gauss Pistols

On Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:47:33 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > Also how come most guns that fire automatic can only fire SS with tranqs.
> > Any thoughts or answers would be appreciated.
> 
> One further note. As I noted, tranq rounds don't provide enough recoil
> to work the action. The same is frequently true when using a silenced
> weapon. Since you need to use sub-sonic rounds, for may have to work
> the action by hand for each shot.

Although a weapon exclusively designed to use these types of rounds would
have its recoil spring replaced with one that was much weaker, thereby
allowing the ammunition to work the action.

> Also, forget about trying to silence a revolver. You can't get a good
> enough seal between the cylinder and the barrel.

This doesn't seem to stop Hollywood from trying, however (I seem to
remember at least one silencer-toating-revolver in one movie, although I
can't remember which  :-)


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 18:40:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Is it true?

On Sat, 21 Sep 96 14:07:26 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 09/21/96 at 12:24 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
> 
> >To put it another way, do you think the Afghans built their own Stinger
> >missiles?  Guerillas will have high tech aid for the things they can't
> >figure out how to sabotage on their own.
> 
> Slightly off subject, but...  Is it true that the Afghans got hand made
> 20mm *rifles* from craftsmen in Pakistan.  And that they shot down a number
> of helicopters with them?  Lie down on the side of mountain, balance the
> rife between your feet and pop Hinds flying by.

Speculative at best.  I believe that the US Apaches are capable of
substaining a direct hit from a 23mm shell (used by the Hinds) so I don't
see why the same wouldn't be true for the Hind struck by a 20mm Anti-tank
rifle.  A lucky shot might pierce the canopy, however, but I doubt a belly
shot would do so (the pilots of the Apache sit in the equivelent of a
titanium bathtub 1" thick to guard against this type of thing).

------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 96 17:37:00 GMT 
Subject: Still More Assorted

>> Also how come most guns that fire automatic can only fire
>> SS with tranqs. Any thoughts or answers would be appreciated.
>
> Not sure about this one... it might have something to do with how
> fast the tranq rounds can handle being loaded during the weapon's
> cyclic action; or perhaps involve the high temperatures resulting
> from continued autofire.

I (when I rated the weapons) assumed that tranq rounds would
be less robust than normal rounds, and wouldn't feed very well in
automatic weapons.

- ------------------------------

>And for those of you who were hoping on typing in some "official"
>sectors for the program, Marc Miller still hasn't gotten back to
>me on my question as to whether or not he'd allow this. I was
>basically hoping for an e-letter of permission, but so far, dead
>silence.
>
>jimv@empirenet.com


Email him again...Marc has been real busy lately.

       LKW


------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:57:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Gauss Pistols

Ronald Urwiller <urwilron@ptw.com> writes:

> In the TNE rulebook the Gauss Pistol is listed as having a high recoil
> factor.  Anyone find this odd?  I mean,  I thought the whole idea behind
> using a magnectic accelerator was to create a low recoil, silent weapon.

Part of the problem is that FFS doesn't distinguish between muzzle energy
(which causes damage to the target) and projectile monentum (which causes
recoil) properly; energy goes as mv^2 while momentum goes as mv, so a 
low-mass high-velocity projectile like a 4mm gauss round *should* have
lower recoil for a given DV than a 9mm round, but in FFS it doesn't.

Bruce

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 96 17:35:00 -0500
Subject: Freelance Traveller is here!

  Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-supported Traveller
  Magazine, is now available on line.  Point your browser to
  http://www.dragonfire.net/~FreelanceTraveller/ and read what
  we've got.  Then, if you're truly interested in supporting
  Traveller, and making it more of a success than it has been
  historically, write to us, and tell us what you think - or
  better still, write articles to be published.

  We know we're a little bit rough around the edges at the
  moment; while the Editor knows the technical aspects of HTML
  and Java/Javascript, he's not really that imaginative when it
  comes to actually using them - and one thing we are not
  interested in is becoming Yet Another Page That Uses Java For
  Useless Time-Wasting Animations.  We'll listen to ideas, and
  implement the best of them.


==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
Editor
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Mag


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:13:11 GMT
Subject: Re: Gauss pistols

On Sat, 21 Sep 1996 13:45:49 -0700 (PDT), Craig Berry wrote:

> > From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
> > Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 07:05:52 GMT
> > 
> > On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:23:28 -0700, Ronald Urwiller wrote:
> > 
> > > In the TNE rulebook the Gauss Pistol is listed as having a high recoil
> > > factor.  Anyone find this odd?  I mean,  I thought the whole idea behind
> > > using a magnectic accelerator was to create a low recoil, silent weapon.
> > 
> > According to the old law written by that old guy with the wild white hair,
> > "every action has an equal and opposite reaction".
> 
> While Sir Isaac Newton is *now* old (about four centuries), he was quite 
> young when he formulated his Three Laws of Dynamics.  And, in every 
> portrait of him I've ever seen, his hair was immaculately coiffed in 
> proper Elizabethan-upper-class style.
> 
> You wouldn't be thinking of some later punk kid who spoiled Sir Isaac's 
> physics, would you? :)

thud... thud... thud... (distant echo of self-induced head-bashing
punishment from previous post)

I don't know WHY but I was thinking of old Albert-buddy (please don't hurt
me!).  Kind of strange since I seemed to know what I was talking about
later in that particular posting.

Actually, it might have been "Yahoo Serious" in that Aussie movie a few
years ago, depicting Einstein as a young rocker type... rent it sometime
for a good laugh.

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:13:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Gauss

On Sun, 22 Sep 1996 08:04:27 -0700, Ronald Urwiller wrote:

> Thanks for your help everyone.  In my defense I did know about Newtowns Law.
> What I didn't know was wether the Gauss weapons had recoil suppressors or
> something of this type.  I say this because I was reading in a book (I
> believe 'High Energy Beam Weapons' circa 1988) and it mentioned a military
> interest in spacebased railguns (ie. Star Wars). Suppossedly it was favored
> because it was reusable and had little or no affect on the satellites orbit
> (thus I think little recoil).  According to the authors specs of the weapon
> it didn't appear to have much more than an ammo pod, barrel, powersource,
> and correctional thrusters.  While I realize that perhaps the thrusters were
> used to negate the affect I should think this would be uneconomical.  This
> system was supposed to stay up for years thus sending up repeated missions
> to refuel the satellite would get quite expensive.  

It would be possible to design the satellite with *two* railguns, firing
directly opposite each other.  With two projectiles (of the same mass)
being fired at the same time, there would be virtually no recoil.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 22 Sep 1996 18:25:17 GMT
Subject: Server Crash (Again)

Well, our sysop has finally given up on the new Windows NT server, which
crashed twice this week, and reverted back to the Macintosh platform. 
(Parenthetically, apparently Microsoft's technical support was less than
helpful.)  Unfortunately, this means that any messages anyone sent me after
August 22 have been lost.  I was in the middle of downloading some Traveller
songs when the last crash happened, so maybe someone could please send those
again.  (Sorry, don't remember who you were.)

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 22 Sep 1996 18:36:07 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Question for the masses

>I feel cheated at this point and let down.  I bought the hardcover (ordered
it
>is more proper) with the impression I would be getting it in advance.  I am 
>disappointed.  

I actually _bought_ the hardcover, sending in a money order before IG was
accepting credit card orders.  So they've already had my money since June. 
Disappointed is a good word, but I'm leaning towards peeved myself.  

------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 19:08:25 -0400
Subject: Re: 15mm Traveller Miniatures

<...cut>

>It started out as a plea to bring back Martian Metals, but ended with an
>interesting note about the old Citadel Traveller 15mm line.
>
>For those of you not familiar with the line, it was *great*.
>
>Anybody care to bring it back?
>
>John Kovalic
>

The Citadel line was the source of my query about the possibility of new
15mm Traveller figs some time ago.  In August 1989 I ordered a BUNCH (about
20 packs) of them from RAFM - they filled the order completely but advised
me they'd not be able to supply them for much longer.  In light of the HIGH
quality of these figs, of the fact that RAFM produced the most recent (TNE,
very nice) 25mm figs and the ships, and of the possibility that the 15mm
molds are stashed away in RAFM's storage closet, is there any chance that
FFE might contact them to negotiate a rerelease of the line?  If the molds
exist, it'd be the least expensive way (for FFE and RAFM) to get a 'new'
line of Traveller figs off the ground... and a very nice one, at that.

Bill


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 19:14:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: TAS Snootiness.

Hi all.  Just wanted to say that my impression that TAS was somewhat
snooty came from a number of factors: 1) The 1 MCR entry fee, 2) The
possibility of "blackball", 3) The fact that only the socially-conscious
navy and marine types could get in.

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 19:28:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Explanations for UWPs for Freelance Traveller.

Hi all.

I sat down last night to start an article for Freelance Traveller.  It
involves outlining a bunch of explanations for UWPs which seem
contraintuitive (e.g. unbreathable atmospheres with low TL, little
rockball worlds with huge populations, etc.). Basically, I was picturing
it as a resource for those GMs suffering from imagination burnout.  I have
few questions regarding this topic: 

1) Have there been any previous articles published on this?  I've
only seen "Preventing complacency in Traveller", which was an article in
(hiss! spit!) "Dragon" on how to spice up "normal" UWPs.

2) What explanations for odd UWPs have you come up with in your games?
What are your favorites from published sources?

3) Who's running Freelance Traveller and how do I subscribe, submit an
article, etc.?  (Yes, I know this info has been posted already, so email
me directly please and thank you). 

Thanks,
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 19:38:01 -0400
Subject: Effects of high G on humans?

        Quick question here: what is the maximum length of time that humans
can withstand high accelerations (say 10G) without grav compensation:

a) unaided?
b) in an acceleration couch?
c) in a grav tank?
d) in a low berth?

        I've got this TL8-9 ship design I'm working on, and I'm just trying
to figure out how big an engine I can put in it without killing the crew
:)?

*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 19:06:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Bringing back Martian Metal's and Citadel 15mm Mini's

JK> From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com> Date: Sun, 22 Sep
JK> 1996 10:17:33 -0500 Subject: 15mm Traveller Miniatures
JK>
JK> Here's an interesting discussion that was going on in
JK> rec.games.miniatures.misc.
JK>
JK> It started out as a plea to bring back Martian Metals, but ended
JK> with an interesting note about the old Citadel Traveller 15mm line.
JK>
JK> For those of you not familiar with the line, it was *great*.
JK>
JK> Anybody care to bring it back?
JK>
JK> John Kovalic

The Martian Metal's miniatures were ok...  Some were very good some were,
quite frankly, awful.  The Citadel's were uniformly excellent.
Unfortunately, I was only able to find one local Chicagoland source for
these figures, which has long since gone out of business.

I would hope that the original moulds are around somewhere waiting for some
lead alloy to fill them...

Chuck

___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 20:45:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Lost mail

Hi,

The internet service I use went down between 1 PM and 8:30 PM 
central time today, so if you sent me any private emails between those 
two times, please re-send them.

Thanks,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 19:20:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Hand-Made Crunch Guns

On  Sat, 21 Sep 1996, scharlto@rtd.com (Steve Charlton)said:

>eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)asks:
>
>Slightly off subject, but...  Is it true that the Afghans got hand made
>20mm *rifles* from craftsmen in Pakistan.  And that they shot down a number
>of helicopters with them?  Lie down on the side of mountain, balance the
>rife between your feet and pop Hinds flying by.
>- -----
>Well, I haven't heard about helicopters being taken out, but there were a 
>number of reports about handmade rifles chambered for the 14.5x114 round 
>that the Soviets used in their KPV "Machinegun" (well, small autocannon 
>really).  IIRC, the mujahadeen were stealing the ammo from the Soviets and 
>their Afgahn allies, but not getting it in enough quantity to waste as 
>machinegun ammo.  The round in question is particularly nasty; it could 
>easily blow through an engine block of a jeep or truck, and in many cases 
>would punch right through the armor of a BTR or BRDM.  Kind of an ultralight 
>ATR for use against light armor.  I'll have to root through some of my old 
>"Janes"; I seem to recall that somebody from the West brought one of these 
>back for analysis as a possible sniper weapon concept.

Several of these monsters made it out, traded for Stingers in many cases.
The weapons differed depending on who made it, but they were generally
single-shot or bolt action cannon, which did sucessfully engage BRDMs at a
distance (for the military impared: a BRDM is a Soviet armored car, light on
the armor).  I have read one account of this weapon being used to drop an
older SovCopter, a Hip perhaps.

This idea has found new life as the 15mm Anti-Material Rifle.. I can't find
my sourcebook right now, (getting packed for a move) but as I recall, the
sabot round will reduce a Chevy engine to metal shavings.

It, and the .50cals, are far to heavy for military snipers, but have an
application with police units.

>As for the Pakistani gunmakers; they had (and probably still have) an 
>amazing cottage industry there making copies of any weapon you might bring 
>in to them.  The interesting part was that the Afghans would bring in 
>weapons made largely of stamped and machined parts, and get hand-made 
>duplicates that worked as well or better than some of the originals.

One of the best weapons I ever fired was a 1903 Springfield that a Pakistani
living here had restored.  He learned the trade from his father, who had
learned it from his father...  He explained that somebody was always
invading Afghanistan, so somebody had to be good a weapons work.  :)


+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
| "This ranks very high on the weird meter." |
|                  -Quinn Mallory, "Sliders" |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #447
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Traveller-digest         Monday, 23 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 448

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. space junkyards
         2. Re: What Happened to Imperium Games???
         3. RPSC: Errors corrected
         4. The Head of Vecna
         5. Spreadsheets
         6. Cold, man cold!
         7. Re: Gauss Pistols
         8. Re: Is it true?
         9. Re: unpaid parking fines
        10. Re: 
        11. Re: High Tech Warfare
        12. Re: Hand-Made Crunch Guns
        13. Re: Explanations for UWPs for Freelance Traveller.
        14. Traveller Suite Q&A
        15. Re: Character Generation Problems

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:30:31 -0400
Subject: space junkyards

<excerpt>Paul writes:

>This makes me wonder...  are there "junk yards" in the Traveller
universe?

</excerpt>

Yup, but given the value of spaceships over cars, my bet is that such
yards

are owned by governments or megacorps.


Such organizations would employ salvage teams, and probably pay
freelancers

for salvaged ships and parts.




- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.

               http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/

Been there.  Done that.  Bought the t-shirt. Wore it home.  Wore it out.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:37:26 -0400
Subject: Re: What Happened to Imperium Games???

After receiving an inquiry about why Imperium Games phone has been
disconnected, I thought the following information would be helpful (and
perhaps reassuring).

Imperium Games has moved. Their new address is:

Imperium Games
Ken Whitman
PO Box 481
772 West Main Street #05
Lake Geneva WI 53147

phones effective late Tuesday Sep 24, 1996

1-414-249-9430 voice
1-414-249-9456	fax

I'm going up to visit the new place on Wednesday (I have to sign 350 or so
copies of the Travelller hardcover).

Marc Miller



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:09:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RPSC: Errors corrected

Hi,

There've been some complications in getting RPSC up on Wildstar's web 
site.  :(  However, the good news is that the delay allowed us to clear 
up the errors I noted in my previous post.

So, when Wildstar makes his announcement that they are available, 
everything should be fine (assuming no errors in transfer, no random bit 
twiddling....yeah, I'm a worrier[G]).

Thanks for being patient with us as we get this stuff worked out.  
Shouldn't be long now, though.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 20:30:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Head of Vecna

Re:  Head of Vecna

Oh! help! I'm laughing so hard I think I broke something! Oh! Oh! too
much! 

- --Glenn

------------------------------

From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 20:29:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Spreadsheets

>From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@Communique.se>
>Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:10:27 +0200
>Subject: Spreadsheets (Excel)

>I am in the process of making a lot of spreadsheets for Megatraveller,
>Traveller-the new era. and wonder if anyone are interested in that

>It will take an instant to make a starship, vehicle, weapon, star
>system, home planet, or what ever.

If you make them for Megatraveller, I'll use them!

- --Glenn

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 96 22:23:58 -0500
Subject: Cold, man cold!

On 09/22/96 at 08:40 AM,  rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott) said:

>>Geeze, you're Canadian you ought to know this.  I know it's cold up there
>>and being so far north I'm sure there's very little air. <wink>

>        True, but we've got this wonderful atmosphere plant up in Quebec
>City that churns out megaliters of superheated air every legislative
>session.  Admittedly, it's rather badly tainted air, but at least we've
>got the pressure problem solved that way :).

Hey! We've got one of those too! <g>

>>I'd say, first they:  freeze - if in the the shade or far enough out or fr
>>- - if close in to the sun.  Then they desiccate.

>>I suspect the longterm result would be pretty bad.  When the water freezes
>>the cells, blood vessels, etc would break and you'd have pretty much a bag
>>of pulp that would then desiccate into the
>>consistency of jerky.


>        Interesting... so you could just put'em in a net, leave'em hanging
>outboard for a while, and then haul'em in and cut'em into strips :)?

Yeah, that's the ticket!

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 96 22:49:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Gauss Pistols

On 09/22/96 at 06:29 PM,  jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said:

>> Naw!  That was the Englishman with the lump on his head, not the guy with
>> the wild hair.  <g>

>THUD! THUD! THUD!

>	(sound of bashing one's own head against the wall)

>THUD! THUD! THUD!...

Don't feel bad, I do it all the time.  Oh, and I'm sure that wild haired
dude *would* have said it, if the Fig hadn't thought of it first.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 96 22:55:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Is it true?

On 09/22/96 at 06:40 PM,  jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said:

>> Slightly off subject, but...  Is it true that the Afghans got hand made
>> 20mm *rifles* from craftsmen in Pakistan.  And that they shot down a numb
>> of helicopters with them?  Lie down on the side of mountain, balance the
>> rife between your feet and pop Hinds flying by.

>Speculative at best.  I believe that the US Apaches are capable of
>substaining a direct hit from a 23mm shell (used by the Hinds) so I don't
>see why the same wouldn't be true for the Hind struck by a 20mm Anti-tank
>rifle.  A lucky shot might pierce the canopy, however, but I doubt a belly
>shot would do so (the pilots of the Apache sit in the equivelent of a
>titanium bathtub 1" thick to guard against this type of thing).

Not the belly, James, through the overhead or sides.  They were supposedly
on the sides of mountains firing *down* into Hinds flying through the
valleys.  OC, all this is probably just an ex-urban myth.  <g>

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 16:27:44 +1300
Subject: Re: unpaid parking fines

> This makes me wonder...  are there "junk yards" in the Traveller universe?
> 
> I'm not sure about other countries...well, really I don't know about
> anywhere but here in the south, but anyway, down here in the south, we have
> auto junk yards where cars that have been "totaled" (wrecked beyond
> reasonable repair) are taken and you can go there to get the useable parts
> off the car.  That is, a car that got rear ended and the back of the car
> (including the axel) is crunched, is gonna have some good engine parts.  I
> wonder if there is something like this in the Traveller Universe where ship
> owners could go to buy used upgrades for their ship at discount prices?
> Comment?
> 
> Paul  {tiger}                   http://www.datasync.com/~tiger
> 
> AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
>        Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
>        Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
>        Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM

I would expect there to be junk yards of many kinds. It would depend on 
the tech level to some extent obviously and the type of world. In my 
games there are such things as starship graveyards where hulks and 
wrecks are towed in the same way one would a car. I expect that there 
would be a big deal made of hulks just left drifting in free space or 
left abandoned in orbit. I allow for policing of this by sugesting that 
there are fines and potential imprisonment for not correctly disposing 
of hulks. Spacejunk is already an emerging problem on earth. Imagine the 
potential problems in a starfaring society that hasn't properly tackled 
the issue of spacejunk.

Spacecraft graveyards are also a good setting for weird adventures. I 
once had a group of players misjuump into such a graveyard to find that 
many of the ships there had been strung together like a necklace and at 
the end of the line was a B-17 bomber and an old sailing ship.



------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 17:29:36 +1300
Subject: Re: 

> > The Scout is "free" because the ship remains the property of the
> > Imperium, and the ship as well as the character can be called back into
> > service when needed.  This is "canon."
> 
> Of course, the Imperium has to be able to find 'em first.
> 
> > The Free Trader isn't free, because the character actually owns the ship
> > (well, he owns the mortgage anyway[G]).
> 
> Once again, just watch them try and collect the payments. Call it
> organic adventure material. In the words of Lenny Bruce: "Screw 'em.
> They can afford it!"
> 
> - --end pasted material--
> 
> The problem is banks (and the Imperium) should have already thought of this
> or they'd quickly go broke!
> 

Absolutely! And of course they have. I play a very tough but fair 
referee.

> For the Imperium I envision that all through your training you
> are--ahem--brainwashed--into thinking how nice it is that the Imperium lends
> you this ship.

I expect that is the intention, yes.

 When you muster out you sign all sorts of nice legal papers
> allowing the Imperium to freeze your bank accounts (hey, they're the
> government--they probably don't even need your signature!), etc., if you
> don't return during a declared emergency.
> 
> So, unless you are of poor moral fiber to begin with, you'll obey the calls.
> If I remember correctly, at least in Classic Trav, couldn't ex-Scouts always
> refuel at a Imperial Scout Base? That would provide the Imperium of a way of
> tracking you. If you failed to obey a summons for a major situation, they
> could get you by issuing a wanted message via the Jump Boats to each world
> along the jump boat routes. Then the Navy could practice interception
> techniques and the Marines could have some fun doing boarding!
> 
> As for banks, I can think of many ways of screwing up your life if you fail
> to make payments. I envision many banks in the Imperium as having connections
> with the Imperium (like banks in the US have connections with the Federal
> Reserve, etc.). If you fail to make a payment on your ship, several things
> could happen. First, the next time you jump into a system that is serviced by
> a X-Boat and try to draw some money from your account--your account is
> frozen. The shipyard that you landed in to do repairs has locked you ship--as
> salvage! Even the hotels don't recognize your credit cards, debit cards, cash
> cards, etc. The local stormtroopers are eying you as a means to get a
> promotion. The skip tracers (and other bounty hunter types) hired by the bank
> are checking your face versus a list they carry.
> 
> There could be other high tech means of prevention as well. Look at cars
> today--ID numbers are engraved in several areas to help trace cars when they
> get stolen. A bank might install a tamper-resistent (I say resistent, as
> there's always the good old FGMP lock remover!) device on the ship. You have
> to make your payment to the bank each quarter (or other time period). If you
> do not, a signal is sent out activating the device. Again, as bank branches
> along the X-Boat route get notice of you being a skipper, they could start
> broadcasting it in their respective systems. When you enter a system with the
> active broadcast and your ship's code, boom! Your jump drive goes down! Or
> your ship starts broadcasting a beeping noise on the IFF band that indicates
> payment failure, salvage me!
> 
> Or even simpler, the device that the bank installs is like a lock on a bank
> vault. Every quarter (or so) you pay the bank. The bank rep visits you and
> resets the lock. If you miss a payment and he or she misses their visit, the
> locks clicks and and one day--boom! No jump drive! Weird signals emanating
> from your radio! Hot showers running cold, food processors spewing endless
> tuna sandwiches (and leaving out the mayo), until you pay up and the clock is
> reset...
> 
> If you have credit and debts, peace of mind comes with maintaining payments.
> If you are a lone ship, I can think of no worse fate than always looking over
> your should for that bank rep or the person from the megacorp that you
> shortchanged...
> 
> Fred Kiesche
> (FKiesche3@aol.com)
> 

Fred,

I agree with everything you have written, some of which I hadn't already 
thought of. Thanks for that.  

I too can think of no worse fate than having to watch your back all the 
time and I believe I can speak for my players in that respect also. That 
is the great thing about Traveller - it is justa game and the players 
can do things that they wouldn't normally do in reality. Otherwise they 
may as well never even leave there homeworld. I certainly hope players 
in your campaign don't come back from the service, settle down with 
their high school sweetheart, get a house in the suburbs with a 
mortgage, raise 2.4 kids etc. Its fun to do things that you wouldn't 
normally do and you know that you just forgot it for a moment.

My players get great fun out of this kind of natural adventure material.

I must say that I also add in a bureaucracy factor into my Imperial 
government and its relations with its member worlds and colonies. This 
acts like the option one has in a flight simulator to add realism by 
reducing the instrumentation and control system efficiency from the 
ideal 100% efficiency. It is kind of a fuzzy logic things that reflects 
my own knowledge that people, groups of people in organisations, and 
institutions, aren't 100% efficient. It reflects the facts that there is 
almost always incomplete information when making a decision, almost 
always more than two options, and almost always more than one answer.

Incredible as it may seem to you not all places under the control of an 
empire are entirely thrilled about it and some would actively or 
passively seek to undermine its authority. I suggest you reflect on what 
happened in the history of your nation in 1776 that has made it a 
bastion of free-thinking people for many years. Do you think that Paul 
Revere was of "low moral fibre"? 

Fred, I'm sorry I'm not counting MAC users. It means nothing to me. 
Computers are just a tool for me. A means to an end not a religion.


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 23:52:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: High Tech Warfare

> From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
> Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 17:41:17 -0700
> 
[re: Viet Nam]
> Craig Berry wrote:
> > Meanwhile, the US
> > was hamstrung by massive restraint in type, quantity, and target of force
> > applied.  Hence the low-tech win in this case.  If we'd been willing to
> > aggressively bomb every factory, supply point, road and rail junction,
> > and military camp in the North, we'd have won.  Easily.  Now, as for
> > stopping it from all happening again the minute we pulled our troops out,
> > that's a *very* different question...
> 
> The US _did_ bomb the living snot out every worthwhile target in the North in late 1972. 
> Operation Linebacker II in December 1972 brought the North Vietnamese to the table 
> knowing that the US could blast them into the Stone Age if it so chose.

And we negotiated such favorable terms when they got there!  We got to
flee the country, under fire, in disarray, abandoning lots of equipment
for them to salvage; they got to take over the South.  Somehow, I can't
build up much enthusiasm for the results obtained through Linebacker II et
al. 

> > The Soviets pioneered a form of air defense called "The Golden BB."  Many
> > of their client states had *very* low-tech air defense weapons, from
> > badly outdated SAMs all the way down to machine guns.  The Golden BB
> > approach involves *filling* the air above the target with bullets,
> > missiles, AAA shells, *anything*...not even making much of an attempt to
> > aim, just shooting up.  With 15 tuns of junk in the air, odds are that at
> > least a few planes will run into some of it.  The Iraqis used this tactic
> > during the initial raids on Baghdad during the Gulf War.  As it happened,
> > they didn't peg any planes...but they *could* have.
> 
> North Vietnam did this, too. Everybody and his brother had an AK, which was fired into 
> the air whenever an Imperialist Air Pirate(tm) flew over.

Yes, and they were more successful with it than Iraq was.  They also had 
insane numbers of highly obsolete Soviet SA/8 (I think it was) 
heat-seaking SAMs, which had to get within about 500 yards of a plane to 
get a decent tracking lock.  So they'd launch dozens of them, more or 
less straight up, from sites about a thousand yards apart, all over the 
target area...and there was no way the US pilot could avoid flying within 
500 yards of *one* of them.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Author of Orb: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/orbinfo.html
   |    Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 06:58:43 GMT
Subject: Re: Hand-Made Crunch Guns

On Sun, 22 Sep 1996 19:20:11 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> This idea has found new life as the 15mm Anti-Material Rifle.. I can't find
> my sourcebook right now, (getting packed for a move) but as I recall, the
> sabot round will reduce a Chevy engine to metal shavings.

Try "Military Small Arms of the 20th Century (6th Ed)" by DBI books.  The
15mm Steyr AMR lists a penetration of 40mm armour steel (not cast-iron like
typical engine blocks) at 800m!  That far exceeds anything else I have data
on (including the 20mm Lahti, 20mm Solothurn, and .55 Boys).

> It, and the .50cals, are far to heavy for military snipers, but have an
> application with police units.

Both weapons actually *are* used by military snipers, just not the type
that usually go for the softer targets like officers :-)  Its ideal purpose
is taking out sensitive enemy equipment (aircraft, fuel/supply dumps, radar
installations, communications centers, etc.) at distances up to 2km away.

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 04:58:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Explanations for UWPs for Freelance Traveller.

Charles Collin wrote:
> 
> Hi all.
> 
>I sat down last night to start an article for Freelance Traveller.  It
>involves outlining a bunch of explanations for UWPs which seem
>contraintuitive (e.g. unbreathable atmospheres with low TL, little
>rockball worlds with huge populations, etc.). Basically, I was picturing
>it as a resource for those GMs suffering from imagination burnout.  I 
>have few questions regarding this topic:
> 
>1) Have there been any previous articles published on this?  I've
>only seen "Preventing complacency in Traveller", which was an article in
>(hiss! spit!) "Dragon" on how to spice up "normal" UWPs.
> 
>2) What explanations for odd UWPs have you come up with in your games?
>What are your favorites from published sources?
> 
>3) Who's running Freelance Traveller and how do I subscribe, submit an
>article, etc.?  (Yes, I know this info has been posted already, so email
>me directly please and thank you).

I've got one I'd like to add.

4) At what point does a planet's hydrosphere become sufficient enought to 
earn it a black dot on the map rather than a circle?  I ask this question 
because I've noticed some worlds have Hydrospheres of 2 or 3 and are 
still listed on the map with the circle not the dot.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 23 Sep 96 11:10:37 EDT
Subject: Traveller Suite Q&A

Greetings All!
  I'm glad to see discussion on the list, however, please remember the
list is for discussing _Traveller_, not advocating various computer
systems over one another!
  To channel our replies to the many questions that are coming up we
will be hosting a Question and Answer section on the upcoming web-page.
There will be forms that will allow you to automatically submit questions.
In the meantime,though, you can submit your questions via e-mail to
"jo_grant@crd.lotus.com". Please put "Question for Dulinor" or "Question
for Alpha" in the title. 
  Here is the list, so far, based on previous statements and questions that
have come up recently...

- ----------- Alpha Q&A -----------------

Q. What is Alpha?
A. Alpha is a Concept Prototype that was presented to Ken Whitman and
English distributors at EuroGenCon. The software is free but unsupported
and we can't guarantee upward compatabilty.

Q. Why was Alpha done?
A.  The main reason for putting together and releasing Alpha was to garner
user feedback to drive our development and release cycle of Project
Dulinor.

Q. How close is Alpha to Dulinor?
A. Alpha contains a number of modules similar to ones that may appear in
the final of Dulinor.  The code base, in most places, will be completely 
different.

- ----------- Dulinor Q&A -----------------

Q. What is Project Dulinor?
A. "Project Dulinor" is the code name of the effort being conducted
to bring a Suite of software for support of Traveller-4 referees and
players to market.

Q. What is the Dulinor release strategy?
A.  Dulinor will be released, itself, over the course of three major milestones.
This is to ensure rapid delivery of a product (as opposed to far off promised
vapourware).

Q. What will be in the first milestone?
A. The first milestone's major features will be character creation and 
maintenance,
an astrogator, and a planetary map editor. It will also include the Alpha
prototype.

Q. What is the first milestone likely to be available?
A. The target release date is at OrkCon on the 1st of November. No promises
though!

Q. What about the other milestones?
A. For the other milestones we have tentative feature lists and project 
schedules
for these releases but they are not firm enough  to release. Instead we are 
releasing
the Alpha, which contains representations of most of the final feature set, for 
free and
based on your feedback we will adjust our development plans.

Q. What platforms will Dulinor be released on?
A. Dulinor is being developed with Windows 3.1, 3.11, NT and 95 as the primary
release platform.

Q. What about other platforms?
A. Upon completion and release of the first milestone we will begin looking at 
what is
required to port that over while work progresses on the second and third 
milestones.

Q. Will it contain hyper-text versions of the Traveller rules?
A. Although Alpha has placeholders for on-line rules, this was removed for 
Dulinor.
Whereas TSR can produce five rule-books on-line for a price much cheaper than
buying them separately, T4 only has one rule book in print at the moment. The 
increase
in price to the end user for including this information (mainly due to the time 
and cost
of processing it into proper HyperText and lisencing) we did not feel was 
balanced
by the benefit. When there are a larger number of T4 books in print, it may be 
different.

Q. Will the data file formats of Dulinor be made public?
A. It is our desire to publish the data formats for our software within a month 
of each
milestone release. This will depend on final lisence agreements. There is a 
small
chance (depending on work schedules) that we will also produce object-code to
read and write from these data formats. What is more likely is that we will 
accept,
validate, and distribute code produced by the hobbiest community for reading and
writing these formats. We will not be garunteeing that the format will not 
change. However
versioning information will be built into the data so differences can be 
detected.

Q. Will this be released on CD?
A. Because of the scope of the project, initial releases will almost certainly 
be on
Floppy Disk. It is desired, then, to set up a commercial web-site for sale of 
the 
software over the internet. When the final product is achieved we may consider
a release on CD. We do want to distinguish this product as a aid for referees 
rather
than a multi-media entertainment release.





Cheers,
Jo

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:41:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Character Generation Problems

Hi Matthew (et al).  Here are my (not "the") answers to your questions.

======Matthew Mactyre said:==========
1.  Does the Flight School (T4, pg. 28) endow +1 to Education to reflect
the year spent in school?  All the other "post-graduation" schools do. 
=====================================

It doesn't say that it does, so I don't think so.  Intuitively, this seems
quite reasonable since the focus of the school would be quite narrow and
not lend itself to broad education.


======Matthew Mactyre said:==========
2.  In T4, pg. 31 in the first merchant table, the first "skill" is listed
as -1 Dex.  Is this right, should a "benefit" ever hurt you?  This same
problem occurs on pg. 33, in the first Noble table (-1 Str) and on pg. 34
in the first Scholar table both -1 Str and -1 Dex.  Maybe this was the
intention of the authors, but it just seems inconsistent to me. 
=====================================

In classic Traveller, they had careers which recieved -1 Soc as a "skill".
This reflected the fact that individuals in these careers tended to lose
social standing due to their criminal nature.  I think the minuses to
physicals which you see here represent the sedentary nature of these
professions.  Though I have to admit that whole table looks a little
"odd".

======Matthew Mactyre said:==========
3.  In T4, pg. 31 on the Benefits Table, in the Mustering out section on
item 6.  Is this supposed to be "Low Passage?"  Many of the other careers
have "High Passage" listed in that slot, should this be changed to "High
Passage?" 
=====================================

Not sure.  I would take it as is and assume it represents something about
merchant payoffs being lower.

======Matthew Mactyre said:==========
4.  During the Mustering out process, if someone rolls Traveller's Aid
Society twice what should happen?  I have also encountered a problem of
when a person's characteristic has reached maximum (F) and they have
rolled to increase it again.  I think I am going to handle it by just
having them re-roll on the table.  Am I missing something in the book that
clarifies this? 
=====================================

Rolling a benefit twice in this fashion leads to no further benefit in
Classic Traveller (e.g. Rolling a Scout, Lab ship or Yacht twice gives no
benefit).  I don't have my old books to quote that rule, but it does say
on page 24 of T4 (second column, first paragraph) regarding TAS
membership: "Only one membership per character".  Regarding stats going up
to F, again no benefit is gained for any pluses above that.  (Basically,
if you've got an ability at F or you're rolling TAS memberships all over
the place, you deserve to lose out a bit, cuz you're obviously rolling
_too_ well :-) 

======Matthew Mactyre said:==========
5.  Small suggestion about "Injury" during the character creation process. 
I've begun thinking of these as "Career Crises."  This seem to capture
what is actually happening to your character.  Injury implies a lost
characteristic to me, and this is never the case.  I created a Merchant
last night, that went through the Merchant Academy with honors only be
kicked out of the Merchants during his first term.  I think this character
was caught sleeping with the daughter of a high placed corporate type, and
that is why he had to leave a promising career in the Merchants and enlist
in the Scouts.  <grin>
=====================================

I like your treatment of this.  I've always interpreted survival rolls
very broadly.  However, I don't think you should rule out injury
completely just because the character doesn't suffer permanent lowering of
attributes.  It could just be a serious injury from which the character
makes a full recovery.  Besides, this sort of injury can lead to
interesting roleplaying possibilities.  A character might have a
prosthetic arm (lower dex, but immune to pain and such).  Or he might
explain his already low dex as an old war wound.

Basically, I don't think there are as many typos as all that.  When you
see a rule or modifier which looks a little odd at first, try to think of
what the author might of had in mind before assuming its an editing error.

Hope this helps,
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #448
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Traveller-digest         Monday, 23 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 449

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Effects of high G on humans?
         2. Someone unsubscribe me...
         3. Hydrosphere Values.
         4. [none]
         5. Re: Someone unsubscribe me...
         6. Vacuum exposure (from:  Spacing the OS2 & Linux dudes?)
         7. Traveller figures and vehicles.
         8. Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!
         9. Re: Vacuum exposure (from: Spacing the OS2 & Linux dudes?) 
        10. Silly Traveller
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #442
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #442
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #442
        14. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #442
        15. Dave Nilsen
        16. Re: Hand-Made Crunch Guns
        17. Martian Metals License
        18. Shadows Floor Plans
        19. Miniatures: Aliens
        20. Trouble on REC.GAMES.FRP.MISC  
        21. Re: Trouble on REC.GAMES.FRP.MISC
        22. BASIC SHIP COMBAT SYSTEM FIXES (LONG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 09:11:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Effects of high G on humans?

====RD Elliot said:==========
        Quick question here: what is the maximum length of time that
humans can withstand high accelerations (say 10G) without grav
compensation: 

a) unaided?
b) in an acceleration couch?
c) in a grav tank?
d) in a low berth?

        I've got this TL8-9 ship design I'm working on, and I'm just
trying to figure out how big an engine I can put in it without killing the
crew :)? 
=========================

Unaided I'd say the highest gravity you could stand for periods of
days/weeks would be 2g.  Maybe 3g with limited movement and a lot of time
spent on acc couches.  Humans can stand pretty high g maneuvers (up to
about 8g) for periods of minutes or seconds.  Their time to
unconsciousness can be greatly increased by the use of a "squeeze suit"
(official term anyone?).  These are basically suits which inflate to
squeeze your lower extremities (and in more recent versions, upper
extremities as well) to force blood into your head.  Using those, some
individuals can stand up to 9 or 10 g for very short periods.  In
primitive navies, such systems would likely be built into Vac suits.

Not sure what you mean by a Grav Tank.  Do you mean one of those big
nasty, heavily armed grav vehicles? :-)  In the more likely event you mean
some sort of liquid suspension chamber or soemthing like that, my answer
is "good question!"  I have no idea.  Ditto for the low berths: It depends
if an individual in the low berth is frozen or not.

Doesn't gravitics come in at TL 8 now anyways? 

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>



------------------------------

From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 14:08:09 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Someone unsubscribe me...

Sorry to do this, but the list wouldn't let me unsubscribe!  Is this 
the Mafia of lists or something? ;-)

If someone could send me the information, or do it for me, I would be 
most grateful.

Thanks for your time...

Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, BSc. Archaeology (Leicester University)

mat3@leicester.ac.uk (...during term-time)
<100520.2025@compuserve.com> (...during recess time)

    "So long and thanks for all the fish."

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 09:17:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hydrosphere Values.

Derek (et al).  It has always been the rule (in Classic Trav anyway) that
in order for a world to have sufficient water for dipping, a hydrosphere
value of 4+ is required.  That is why the worlds on the map are listed as
circles.  

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

From: tc@library.solent.ac.uk (Timothy Collinson)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 14:46:25 GMT
Subject: [none]

Page 1
~EXTERNALREPLIED : traveller@MPGN.COM

- ------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:43:48 PST
Subject: Re: other places...

On 19 Sep 96 at 11:31, Timothy Collinson spewed:

>> Try the local library....  ;-)   - assuming its not a high-tech
>> world

On 20 Sep 96 at 17:43, Leonard Erickson replied:

>Actually, high-tech worlds will still have libraries. They may have
>books on display (much like some libraries might have a sumerian clay
>tablet on display) but they'll mostly be a bunch of computers/terminals
>for public use.

I know, I was being provocative - for further information see
my little black book no.9 'Data and Loremasters'.  (Well
actually, it is still being revised and refined and might as
well wait now till T4 arrives in Southern England, but if
there *is* anyone still playing CT rules...!)

>Sure, you can access the data from your hotel room or from your home.
>But there will still be people who can't afford the charges, so they'll
>go down to the free terminals. And it's a lot harder to track just what
>you are researching if you do it at the library (on worlds with
>reasonable levels of personal freedoms, the libraries make it a point
>to *not* keep records of who accessed what)

I'll be interested to see what the new T4 book says about
libraries/data access etc but is there anyone else who feels
that (much like money in the Third Imperium perhaps) this is
one area which is fairly critical to the needs of the average
Traveller player/game and yet has been sadly neglected by the
rules?

What I've been trying to work out is a system whereby the
state of information access/provision/etc. for any
particular planet can be generated
given a world's UWP.  (Or from scratch for those who want
their libraries to exist in a vacuum!)

Would anyone find this useful or shall I save my time for
something more constructive?

timothy

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 09:47:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Someone unsubscribe me...

On Mon, 23 Sep 1996, M.A.Trickett wrote:

> Sorry to do this, but the list wouldn't let me unsubscribe!  Is this 
> the Mafia of lists or something? ;-)


Hey, yoose would be real smart like to just clam up...before I go'n sick
my Aslan buddies on yoose, ya know, send dem over for a little get to know
ya chat, all polite like of course...

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: mizal@arrakis.es (Mikel Izal Azcarate)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:55:20 +0100
Subject: Vacuum exposure (from:  Spacing the OS2 & Linux dudes?)

rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott) said:

>>     Which reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask for ages: does
>>anyone know what the exact effects of prolonged exposure to vacuum on a
>>corpse would be?  Would the corpse freeze or just dessicate?

And that was the answer from eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) :

>I'd say, first they:  freeze - if in the the shade or far enough out or fry
>- - if close in to the sun.  Then they desiccate.
>
>I suspect the longterm result would be pretty bad.  When the water freezes,
>the cells, blood vessels, etc would break and you'd have pretty much a bag
>of pulp that would then desiccate into the
>consistency of jerky.

I'd like to know what are the efects of a short exposure to vacuum and what
you die for if you get a hole in the vac suit or if you are spaced.
Some movies sugest that a fast descompresion would cause your corpse to
explode due to the greater presure of blood and corpse fluids.( i think the
film was called 'zero atmosfere' but maybe the title in spanish was bad
translated)
In other places (some Asimov's books) it's said that you die frozen
first.But if you are in a vac suit inside a starship without a functioning
life suport you may die due to asfixia faster...

I've refeered CT, MT and TNE and only MT has a section explaining these
efects (1 damage point per round exposed to vacuum). I'd like to know hou
do you handle this situations in TNE and if they are covered in T4.

That's the first time i write to this list i hope you'll have no problems
with my poor english.

+--------------------------
| Mikel Izal Azcarate
| mizal@arrakis.es
|



------------------------------

From: mab@sdc1.bnsc.rl.ac.uk (Mystic Musk Ox)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:15:14 GMT
Subject: Traveller figures and vehicles.

Hi. 

With all this discussion of Traveller figures, I would recommend looking
at the range of 25mm (and I think 15mm) stuff done by Ground Zero. They are a UK
company with a US distributor. They do quite a large range of SF figures, including
marine types, civilians, and quite a large range of resin vehicles which are really
nice - ranging from small hover jeeps, through tanks, APC's, police cars etc, to an
impressive 'drop-ship' (which I think would do for a 100 ton scout ship), which is
about 15 inches long. Plus 'atmospheric' casts like computer terminals, rubbish skips,
cargo pods, etc,etc.

A recent addition to their range are troopers in 'Powered Armour', which look
really nice.

They also do their own SF wargames rules, 'Stargrunt II', and 'Full Thrust', for
ground and space battles. I've not read these, so I don't know much about them I'm
afraid.

I haven't got the UK Ground Zero address with me I'm afraid, but I can post it later,
or just look through a copy of 'Wargames Illustrated', or 'Miniature Wargames'.

Ground Zero stuff distributed in the US by:

GEO-HEX
2126 North Lewis
Portland
OR
97227

GEO-HEX also make nice terrain stuff, as far as I remember...

Mark Buckley.
 

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:03:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Travellers with Macintoshes unite!

On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> 
> I have a mac.  A few, actually.
> 
> -Merrick
> 

I have an Apple IIe on my desk at home, does that count?  (I won't tell
you about the computer next to it).

Pete 


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:05:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Vacuum exposure (from: Spacing the OS2 & Linux dudes?) 

I think you die of suffocation first, at least in the simplest case 
of just suddenly having vaccuum instead of air.  With a slow leak, 
you might freeze first, but I doubt it.  Under no circumstances 
would you dramatically explode into bloody shreds.  The coroner 
might find some bleeding at the nose, mouth, or ears, or something 
like that, but that would be the most, from what I've read.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:54:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Silly Traveller

Awhile back (years, probably) I posted this to the TML.  Enough change and
time has passed to resubmit;

In CT, Players wanted to know what capabilities came along with each skill
level.  I used Vacc Suit skill as an example;

Skill Level 0 :  Character can figure out which are the arms and which are
the legs.  Manages to hook up the plumbing with a minimal chance of messy
errors.  No meaningful repairs or maintanence possible.  Took a Vacc Suit
familiarization seminar (1 day) at the local Hilton.

Skill Level 1 :  Plumbing fixtures are recognized as the really important
aspect of comfort in a Vacc Suit that they are.  Can slap a patch on a
hole.  Arms vs. Legs are no problem at all.  Experienced at cleaning out
vacc suits in which the plumbing was hooked up by a level 0 user.  Took
the Vacc Suit course at the local Technical school (got an easy credit).

Skill Level 2 : Can hook up plumbing so well you almost don't notice it.
Stitching and patching is Routine.  Assigns cleaning up mistakes to level
1 newbies.  Can make a vacc suit with the proper materials and
supervision.  Minored in Vacc Suit in College.

Skill Level 3 : Plumbing can be used as a sexual aid.  Knows all the
tricks of messy clean ups (just reverse the vacuum system so...oops, sorry
Jack!).  Can make a Vacc suit with some non-standard materials.  Has a
B.S. in Vacc Suit technology.

Skill Level 4 : Plumbing can be an ecstatic experience.  Can make a vacc
suit with Improvised materials like Rubber Gloves, Glass fishbowls,
Condoms, Super Polydent, Final Net hairspray, a seltzer bottle,
reflective Duct Tape, etc. Has gone to Vacc Suit Graduate School and been
in the Vacc suit industry. 

Skill Level 5 : A true Demi-God of Vacc Suit technique.  Occassionally
hooks people up to vacc suits for a fee (Vacc Giggilo).  Teaches at Vacc
Suit University.  Can make an improvised Vacc Suit with a case of condoms
(ribbed, Lubricated), a jar of KY Jelly and several rolls of Duct Tape.
Can make you a tailored vacc suit that looks like a Gold Lamay dress.

Skill Level 6 : Vacc Suits are this person's Life.  There are still people
hooked up to the plumbing by this person in a comatose orgasmic state.
Runs Vacc Suit University.  Always wears a vacc suit (although you'd never
know it) . Can improvise a Vacc Suit with One condom, One Roll of Duct
Tape, and a jar of KY Jelly.  Makes Sector-wide Fashion news with their
daring new Vacc Suit designs.


I invite others (as I did last time) to submit their favorite examples of
"What can you do with skill in...".

Pete


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 18:07 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #442

In-Reply-To: <9609210648.AA05434@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Weird places to game...

>> >Weird places to game over the years...
>> 
>> 5:  In the same room as two women having sex.
>Err... could you reiterate on #5? >>

>...and can I join your group? :-)

Depends.  My wife wants to know if you have a cute female to offer in 
the bargain.... >>

If I had, d'ya think I'd be asking?
:-(

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 18:07 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #442

In-Reply-To: <9609210648.AA05434@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Weird places to game...

>> >Weird places to game over the years...
>> 
>> 5:  In the same room as two women having sex.
>Err... could you reiterate on #5? >>

>...and can I join your group? :-)

Depends.  My wife wants to know if you have a cute female to offer in 
the bargain.... >>

If I had, d'ya think I'd be asking?
:-(

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 18:07 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #442

In-Reply-To: <9609210648.AA05434@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Ronald Urwiller <urwilron@ptw.com>
Subject: Gauss Pistols

Also how come most guns that fire automatic can only fire SS with 
tranqs.
Any thoughts or answers would be appreciated. >>

Tranq rounds are low energy (ie low velocity) - the idea is to do as 
little damage as possible. The rounds probably don't have enough recoil 
to re-cock the gun.

You could, of course, design a gun that *could* autofire tranq, but if 
you tried to fire normal rounds from it, it'd probably blow up.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 18:07 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #442

In-Reply-To: <9609210648.AA05434@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Ronald Urwiller <urwilron@ptw.com>
Subject: Gauss Pistols

Also how come most guns that fire automatic can only fire SS with 
tranqs.
Any thoughts or answers would be appreciated. >>

Tranq rounds are low energy (ie low velocity) - the idea is to do as 
little damage as possible. The rounds probably don't have enough recoil 
to re-cock the gun.

You could, of course, design a gun that *could* autofire tranq, but if 
you tried to fire normal rounds from it, it'd probably blow up.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 14:27:32 -0400
Subject: Dave Nilsen

Just before my unplanned vacation from the net, there had been talk that
Dave Nilsen was going to be joining this list. His e-mail address was
published, but I didn't write it down and have since lost it. I wanted to
send him some stuff, but I can't until I get the address. Anyone remember it?

                                Allen


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 23 Sep 1996 14:03:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Hand-Made Crunch Guns

>The interesting part was that the Afghans would bring in 
>weapons made largely of stamped and machined parts, and get hand-made 
>duplicates that worked as well or better than some of the originals.

And, in some cases, had things like tool marks, serial numbers, etc.
faithfully reproduced!

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 23 Sep 1996 14:11:27 GMT
Subject: Martian Metals License

Six years ago Seeker owned the rights to the Martiam Metals figures, as well
as the FASA deckplans.  I don't know what Seeker's doing now, but six years
ago they were willing to sell the miniatures rights (and molds).  Knowing
nothing about metal casting, and being nearly broke after a year off work
retraining myself, I didn't bite; however, they would probably still be
interested in selling.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 23 Sep 1996 14:25:46 GMT
Subject: Shadows Floor Plans

I've just finished converting the 25mm floor plans to the CT Shadows adventure
from SuperPaint to GIF.  Tonight I'll add them to my Traveller web site:

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/traveller.html

(I'm posting this in advance in case my email access gets toasted again!)


The red stars marking hex centres are scaled for 1 inch equals 2m, based on
the original floor plans.  To use with T4, you'll either have to convert
ranges or add your own set of marks 0.75" apart.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 23 Sep 1996 14:32:03 GMT
Subject: Miniatures: Aliens

Someone here (forget who) mentioned that they cast miniatures.

I would really like to have miniatures for some alien critters (and
sapients).  For example:

i) All the Traveller minor races, but especially Dolphins, Newts and Virushi.
ii) All of David Brin's races from the Uplift series of books. (I use these
in my Traveller campaign.)
iii) Some alien animals that look more realistic than the typical 'wierd
fantasy' criters most companies make.

I don't know how big this market is - probably not large.  However, generic
human figures are, if not easy, not difficult to find; good aliens are a lot
harder to locate.

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:24:35 -0400
Subject: Trouble on REC.GAMES.FRP.MISC  

Just got off of the Usenet board REC.GAMES.FRP.MISC. There's a guy on there
who's spreading the runor that Imperium Games has gone under, and is really
badmouthing the company due to the errors in T4 and the interminable delays
in getting the hardcover out. I was frankly afraid that something like that
was going to happen. Do you think the continual "GDW is going under" talk
might have contributed to it's actual demise? I think it might be time for
Imperium Games to do a little damage control.
        WE know the reason IG's been unavailable is because they're moving,
but there's a lot of people out there that don't.

------------------------------

From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:20:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Trouble on REC.GAMES.FRP.MISC

Susan M. Shock <34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu> writes:

> Just got off of the Usenet board REC.GAMES.FRP.MISC. There's a guy on there
> who's spreading the runor that Imperium Games has gone under, and is really
> badmouthing the company due to the errors in T4 and the interminable delays
> in getting the hardcover out. I was frankly afraid that something like that
> was going to happen. Do you think the continual "GDW is going under" talk
> might have contributed to it's actual demise? I think it might be time for
> Imperium Games to do a little damage control.
>         WE know the reason IG's been unavailable is because they're moving,
> but there's a lot of people out there that don't.

I've seen those posts, and the guy is clearly full of crap.  We just need
to make sure we shout louder than him.  At the risking of spamming the
newsgroup, maybe we should take turns posting a basenote (each day) that
is entitled "IMPERIUM GAMES IS DOING JUST FINE, THANK YOU" and include
a short note about them moving and all.  After a couple weeks, we can
stop. :^)

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@peak.org
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When values are sufficient, Laws are unnecessary.  
   When values are insufficient, Laws are unenforceable."
                                 - Barry Asmus

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 17:04:41 -0400
Subject: BASIC SHIP COMBAT SYSTEM FIXES (LONG)

I've been doing a little work here and there on the Basic Ship Combat System
in the T4 rulebook. It had the right idea, but I felt it was not as well
integrated with the T4 rules as it could've been. Don's response to my
statements tried to explain where it was coming from, and I understand that
realism is not the issue. In fact, I wouldn't care about realism at all. I
just want a system that fits well with the RPG and uses the characters
skills. So, here are the fixes I've come up with. As I go through, I'l try
to explain my rationale for the changes I've made.

STEP ONE: TASK FORCE ASSEMBLY
        No changes here.

STEP TWO: INITIATIVE
        Each side rolls an Average (2D) task against Tactics (those who
don't have Tactics use it as a 0 level skill) with the following Die Roll
Modifiers:
        +1 for each level of Leadership the task force Commander possesses
        -1 for each ship after the first in the Task Force.
The side that succeeds by the most has the Initiative for that turn.

STEP THREE: RANGE STEP
        Winner of the initiative can increase or decrease the range by one band.
Task forces cannot go beyond very long range unless they break off.

STEP FOUR: BREAK-OFF
        There are two ways a ship can break-off; by jumping out, and by
accelerating away.
        JUMPING OUT: Going to jump during a battle requires an Difficult
task roll by both the Astrogator and the Engineer. If successful, the ship
jumps out in the Pursuit phase in (Jump distance x 2 / Power Plant Rating)
turns. (Thanks to Wildstar for that idea!) If the result is less than 1, the
ship can jump out that turn.
        ACCELERATION: If a ship is at Very Long range from it's closest
pursuer, it can leave the battle in the Pursuit phase.

STEP FIVE: SENSOR STEP
        Sensor rolls are made using the Sensors skill and INT of the sensors
operator, with modifications for range and size. You must declare whether
you are using Active or Passive Sensors.
        The sensor ratings indicate the ranges at which the sensor can be
used; compare the rating to the Range table; this is the Short range. Add +3
range bands to determine the maximum range. (EX: A4 is a Very Short range
sensor. It's maximum range is Long. Anything beyond this range cannot be
detected by this sensor.)
        If a target is using Active Sensors, it is automatically detected.
        Once the target is detected, it must be LOCKED to be fired on. This
is +1 Difficulty Level easier than the detection task, and is not automatic
even if the target is Active. If attempting a target lock with Active
sensors, you get +1 Difficulty level (i.e. it gets easier, going from say
Difficult to Average.)

        RANGE TABLE     DISTANCE                       RATING
        Very Short      5 hexes (150,000 km or less)   Average (2D)
        Short           10 hexes (300,000 km)          Difficult (2.5D)
        Medium          20 hexes (600,000 km)          Formidable (3D)
        Long            40 hexes (1,200,000 km)        Staggering (3.5D)
        Very Long       80 hexes (2,400,000 km)        Impossible (4D)

SIZE MODIFIERS

HULL(d tons)    SIZE    MODIFIERS
<1              5       -4
1+              6       -3
10+             7       -2
100+            8       -1
1000+           9        0
10,000+        10       +1
100,000+       11       +2
1,000,000      12       +3

STEP 6: DECLARE FIRE
        Both sides declare what weapons they intend to fire, with the side
that lost the initiative declaring first. They then declare what defenses
they are employing.
Lasers not declared as firing offensively may be used to shoot incoming missles.

STEP 7: WEAPON FIRE
        All weapons fire is simultaneous, so if a weapon is destroyed, the
damage takes effect the NEXT turn, not the current one. Fire is conducted
using the Gunnery
ability of the characters manning the weapons, using the Range tables and
Size modifiers listed above. The Fire Control rating of the ship is added to
the Target Number. Spectacular successes do double damage to armor and
result in TWO rolls on the Surface Damage table if the ship has armor, or
two hits on Structure and two rolls on the Internal Explosions table if it
does not. Hits that breach the armor get only one roll on the Internal
Explosions table. Spectacular failures have no effect.

STEP 8: LAUNCH AND RECOVER VESSELS
        As per the rulebook

STEP 9: BREAKTHROUGH
        As per the rulebook

STEP 10 : PURSUIT
        Ships beginning the turn at Very Long range from their closest enemy
and who are still at that range can now leave the battle.

        Go back to step 2 and repeat until the battle is over.

The major alteration, besides using the task syetm a little more, is in the
Initiative step. Under the published system, the side that got initiative
had it for the whole fight. This way, adversaries with equal ability will
trade off now and then
while those with clear superiority will generally do better. Also, it seemed
to make more sense to use Tactics than leadership, but leadership ability is
important, thus it is used as a modifier.

Please let me know what you think of this version! I decided to post it
publically so I could get some wider feedback, and so that those who wanted
it could use it.

                                        Allen






------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #449
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Traveller-digest         Tuesday, 24 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 450

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Gauss Pistols
         2. Re: Trouble on REC.GAMES.FRP.MISC  
         3. Re: Gauss Pistols
         4. Re: High Tech Warfare
         5. Re: Vacuum exposure (Another question...)
         6. Re: Trouble on REC.GAMES.FRP.MISC  
         7. Re: Gauss Pistols
         8. Re: Vacuum exposure (Another question...)
         9. Questions Concerning T4 Rules
        10. Re: Gauss Pistols
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #449
        12. Re: Effects of high G on humans?
        13. Thanks, Dave
        14. RPSC Available on Website!
        15. Shadow Plans Delayed
        16. David Brin's Aliens
        17. Re: David Brin's Aliens
        18. Re: Thanks, Dave

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: rogersm@tau.uab.es (Roger Sen Montero)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 23:11:54
Subject: Gauss Pistols

In <9609221520.AA07654@NS.MPGN.COM>, on 09/22/96 
   at 11:20 AM, Leonard Erickson said:

>As for silent, *any* supersonic projectile will *not* be silent. And
>the higher the velocity, the less silent.

 Quoting The Megatraveller Journal #2 in the Q&A, Joe D. Fugate Sr writes:

 "Years ago, I was on an airplane flying to Chicago and I sat next to a
physicist who worked for the weapons department of the Pentagon. [..]
 I asked him if a gauss weapon could be designed with a bullet that
travelled faster than the speed of sound, but would not make a sonic crack
when fired. Without hesitation, he answered, 'Yes, it could be done'.
 He went on to explain how the physics of projectiles is a bit differnt
than the physics of full-sized aircraft. He said the key would be to
design  the projectile so it had a smooth flight, with no wobble or
turbulence. If you could impart the proper spin on the projectile, and
could get it to supersonic speed while still in the barrel, it could be
done"

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
rogersm@tau.uab.es (Roger Sen Montero)           OS/2.user++;
- -----------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:56:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Trouble on REC.GAMES.FRP.MISC  

Anybody who doesn't take USENET with at BIG grain of salt really should,
I'd not worry about such trolls all too much.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:59:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Gauss Pistols

On Mon, 23 Sep 1996, Roger Sen Montero wrote:

> In <9609221520.AA07654@NS.MPGN.COM>, on 09/22/96 
>    at 11:20 AM, Leonard Erickson said:
> 
> 
> >As for silent, *any* supersonic projectile will *not* be silent. And
> >the higher the velocity, the less silent.
> 
>  Quoting The Megatraveller Journal #2 in the Q&A, Joe D. Fugate Sr writes:
> 
>  "Years ago, I was on an airplane flying to Chicago and I sat next to a
> physicist who worked for the weapons department of the Pentagon. [..]
>  I asked him if a gauss weapon could be designed with a bullet that
> travelled faster than the speed of sound, but would not make a sonic crack
> when fired. Without hesitation, he answered, 'Yes, it could be done'.
>  He went on to explain how the physics of projectiles is a bit differnt
> than the physics of full-sized aircraft. He said the key would be to
> design  the projectile so it had a smooth flight, with no wobble or
> turbulence. If you could impart the proper spin on the projectile, and
> could get it to supersonic speed while still in the barrel, it could be
> done"



Yes, no sonic boom but you *still* get quite a bit of noise.



> 
> -- 
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> rogersm@tau.uab.es (Roger Sen Montero)           OS/2.user++;
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:41:33 -0700
Subject: Re: High Tech Warfare

Craig Berry wrote:
> 
>
> 
> And we negotiated such favorable terms when they got there!  We got to
> flee the country, under fire, in disarray, abandoning lots of equipment
> for them to salvage; they got to take over the South.  Somehow, I can't
> build up much enthusiasm for the results obtained through Linebacker II et
> al.

The political results sucked, but the _tactical_ ones didn't. Basically, the goal was to 
show the enemy that we would destroy his nation if he didn't negotiate. He did, but we 
were so anxious to disengage that the US made concessions. The _treaty_ didn't permit 
the North to take over the South; the subsequent invasion by 22 divisions of NVA in 1975 
did. The treaty allowed the US to disengage and get back the POWs.


> >
> > North Vietnam did this, too. Everybody and his brother had an AK, which was fired into
> > the air whenever an Imperialist Air Pirate(tm) flew over.
> 
> Yes, and they were more successful with it than Iraq was.  They also had
> insane numbers of highly obsolete Soviet SA/8 (I think it was)
> heat-seaking SAMs, which had to get within about 500 yards of a plane to
> get a decent tracking lock.  So they'd launch dozens of them, more or
> less straight up, from sites about a thousand yards apart, all over the
> target area...and there was no way the US pilot could avoid flying within
> 500 yards of *one* of them.

Youch! Who needs AEGIS when you have Pack-o-SAM(tm) ;) I thought the SA-9 was the cheapo 
heat-seeker . . . .

There's also the fact that VN-era aircraft were much less robust in terms of taking 
damage than modern planes.


- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: George Roelke <groelke@dayton.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 21:07:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Vacuum exposure (Another question...)

lurk_mode = OFF;

	Hi, all.  I've been a lurker here for years now (long enough to smile 
when the Rock Dropping topic comes up again!), but latest talk on vacuum 
exposure has inspired me to de-lurk and ask a question that has 
been bugging me for ages:

	How long does it take for a punctured vacc suit, hull, etc., to vent 
to vacuum?  Specifically, given a certain volume of air, and a hole of a 
certain area/size, how long does it take to vent to 0 atmospheres? 

	This comes up often with my group, usually because of bullet holes 
in non-sealing vacc suits, etc.  Once or twice the _Aliens_ huge hole in 
the hull situation has come up as well.

	I have never been able to believe that the airlock in _Aliens_ could 
be open for 30 seconds without any ill effects...

	I have posed the question to some mechanical engineer friends, who 
shake their heads, tell me the problem is a very complicated fluid 
dynamics problem, depending heavily on the size and shape of the hole, 
etc etc.  No answers.

	Does anyone know of a good ballpark way of estimating this?  
A handy equation using volume and area of the hole would be ideal.  
Suggestions?

	George

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
George Roelke
Computer Engineer, among other hobbies
groelke@dayton.net
Dayton, Ohio, USA, Terra (Sol III)

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:27:47 -0800
Subject: Re: Trouble on REC.GAMES.FRP.MISC  

On 23 Sep 96 at 18:56, Tom Ellis spewed:

> Anybody who doesn't take USENET with at BIG grain of salt really
> should, I'd not worry about such trolls all too much.

Only trouble is, there are a lot of people who will read a rumor or 
spam off of Usenet off of a newsgroup, take it out of context, and 
repeat it (misquoted slightly) as the gospel...

That's the reason people are still falling for the Good Times virus 
after all these years...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:54:56 -0600
Subject: Re: Gauss Pistols

At 07:05 am 9/21/96 GMT, you wrote:
>> Also how come most guns that fire automatic can only fire SS with tranqs.
>> Any thoughts or answers would be appreciated.  
>
>Not sure about this one... it might have something to do with how fast the
>tranq rounds can handle being loaded during the weapon's cyclic action; or
>perhaps involve the high temperatures resulting from continued autofire.
>Nah!

        Or perhaps the fact that firing tranq rounds means you want the
target alive ... and an overdose of tranq from a solid automatic burst will
be just as fatal as lead.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 22:35:03 -0600
Subject: Re: Vacuum exposure (Another question...)

At 09:07 pm 9/23/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>lurk_mode =3D OFF;
>
>	Hi, all.  I've been a lurker here for years now (long enough to smile=20
>when the Rock Dropping topic comes up again!), but latest talk on vacuum=20
>exposure has inspired me to de-lurk and ask a question that has=20
>been bugging me for ages:
>
>	How long does it take for a punctured vacc suit, hull, etc., to vent=20
>to vacuum?  Specifically, given a certain volume of air, and a hole of a=20
>certain area/size, how long does it take to vent to 0 atmospheres?=20

        Here's a factual answered I have stored away in the bowels of my
computer. It explains what actually happened when a shuttle astronaut's suit
was punctured

>From: GLANDIS@LERC.NASA.GOV (Geoffrey A. Landis)
>Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
>Subject: Re: Effects of Explosive Decompression
>
>The subject of explosive decompression comes up so often on sci.space.tech
that I=92ve decided to keep a file on the suject.  In brief, if you keep=
 your
mouth *wide* open to avoid rupturing your lungs, you can expect to stay
conscious in complete vacuum for ten to twenty seconds.  If you are
recompressed within one to two minutes, you will probably survive the
experience.  In short, Clarke (in _2001_) seens to have gotten it about
right, since Bowman manages to close the airlock in the ten seconds of
consciousness he has available..

> "It is very unlikely that a human suddenly exposed to a vacuum would have
more than 5 to 10 seconds to help himself.  If immediate help is at hand,
although one"s appearance and condition will be grave, it is reasonable to
assume that recompression to a tolerable pressure (200 mm Hg, 3.8 psia)
within 60 to 90 seconds could result in survival, and possibly in rather
rapid recovery."

>Among other things, it has the only published discussion I=92ve ever seen=
 of
the JSC (well, it was MSC then) suit technician who spent 20 seconds in
vacuum in Dec 1966 when a suit umbilical came loose during a vacuum- chamber
test.  The pressure drop was slowed somewhat by the remaining section of
hose, so it wasn=92t fast enough to cause lung damage.  He passed out,
presumably from anoxia, after 12-15s.  Pressure began to be restored at 20s
and was well up at 27s, at about which time he regained consciousness.  He
was apparently uninjured, and aftereffects were minor and temporary.
>
>Henry Spencer comments:

>>Ebullism (Precious Bodily Fluids vaporize at body temperature):
>"Small pockets of gas can be detected beneath the skin within two to three
seconds after exposure ..."

>"Gas evolution can also be detected in the abdominal cavity after seven to
ten seconds, and within the heart and great vessels after about twenty=
 seconds."


>Roth says that vapor bubbles form in the bloodstream essentially
instantaneously=97delays under 1s=97but initially are not serious enough to=
 stop
circulation.  Eventually they are.  Worse, these bubbles begin as water
vapor, but then they start to pick up dissolved gases from the blood... and
while the water vapor will condense out almost instantaneously on
repressurization, the gases redissolve much more slowly, and the resulting
long-lived bubbles are potentially a very serious threat.  There are medical
countermeasures, which Roth discusses, but most of them unfortunately rely
on gravity (for example, a well-chosen prone position=97on one side at about=
 a
30-degree head-down slope=97keeps bubbles in the heart away from the valves
and gives time for the bubbles to dissolve or be dealt with medically).

>Gregory Bennett adds:=20

>Incidentally, we have had one experience with a suit puncture on the
Shuttle flights.  On STS-37, during one of my flight experiments, the palm
restraint in one of the astronaut=92s gloves came loose and migrated until=
 it
punch a hole in the pressure bladder between his thumb and forefinger.  It
was explosive decompression, just a little 1/8 inch hole, but it was
exciting down here in the swamp because it was the first injury we=92ve ever
head from a suit incident.  Amazingly, the astronaut in question didn=92t=
 even
know the puncture had occured; he was so hopped on adrenalin it wasn=92t=
 until
after he got back in that he even noticed there was a painful red mark on
his hand.  He figured his glove was chafing and didn=92t worry about it. =20

>The whole story didn=92t come out until the suits were back home and a suit
technician was setting up to clean that glove; he discovered the dried blood
on the outer TMG (thermal micrometrioid garment) and then found the wayward
palm restraint bar.  What happened: when the metal bar punctured the glove,
the skin of the astronaut=92s hand partially sealed the opening.  He bled=
 into
space, and at the same time his coagulating blood sealed the opening enough
that the bar was retained inside the hole.=20

>The best estimate we=92ve been able to get from the flight surgeons about=
 how
long an astronaut might survive a catastrophic suit failure is "several tens
of seconds to very few minutes" with almost certainty for detectable
permanent damage.
>
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available=20
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 22:12:23 -0700
Subject: Questions Concerning T4 Rules

Greetings All,

After continuing on in the T4 rules I have some more questions:

1.  In T4 on pg. 70, the Medical Drug is listed.  What effect does it have
on a wounded person?  Does it heal 1D per wound?  In the same vein, what are
the cost of the separate drugs?  Their cost doesn't appear in the narrative
or tables?

2.  I would really like to see play examples, especially melee combat,
ranged combat, vehicle combat and ship combat. I come from a GURPS
background and the "Tasking" system is a bit alien to me; these examples
would serve to answer a lot of my basic questions about game mechanics.

3.  In T4 on pg. 69, the "Survey Shield" is listed, but it does not have the
weight or volume listed.  Since this piece of equipment is stowed in the
hold, that information could play an important part in determining cargo space.

Regards,


Matthew Mactyre
mmactyre@concentric.net
http://www.cris.com/~mmactyre/
PGP public key available on request


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:31:31 PST
Subject: Re: Gauss Pistols

In mail you write:

> In <9609221520.AA07654@NS.MPGN.COM>, on 09/22/96 
>    at 11:20 AM, Leonard Erickson said:
>
>
>>As for silent, *any* supersonic projectile will *not* be silent. And
>>the higher the velocity, the less silent.
>
>  Quoting The Megatraveller Journal #2 in the Q&A, Joe D. Fugate Sr writes:
>
>  "Years ago, I was on an airplane flying to Chicago and I sat next to a
> physicist who worked for the weapons department of the Pentagon. [..]
>  I asked him if a gauss weapon could be designed with a bullet that
> travelled faster than the speed of sound, but would not make a sonic crack
> when fired. Without hesitation, he answered, 'Yes, it could be done'.
>  He went on to explain how the physics of projectiles is a bit differnt
> than the physics of full-sized aircraft. He said the key would be to
> design  the projectile so it had a smooth flight, with no wobble or
> turbulence. If you could impart the proper spin on the projectile, and
> could get it to supersonic speed while still in the barrel, it could be
> done"

The problem is that the projectile *will* have a shock wave, simply by
virtue of being supersonic. The shock wave is due to the air only being
able to get out of the way at the speed of sound. And the "crack" will
occur when the shock wave passes an observer. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 02:27:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #449

>| Mikel Izal Azcarate <mizal@arrakis.es> asks:

>I'd like to know what are the efects of a short exposure to vacuum and what
>you die for if you get a hole in the vac suit or if you are spaced.
>Some movies sugest that a fast descompresion would cause your corpse to
>explode due to the greater presure of blood and corpse fluids.( i think the
>film was called 'zero atmosfere' but maybe the title in spanish was bad
>translated)
>In other places (some Asimov's books) it's said that you die frozen
>first.But if you are in a vac suit inside a starship without a functioning
>life suport you may die due to asfixia faster...

A commonly asked question. Here's the best answer I've seen, posted to the
rec.arts.sf.science newsgroup by SF writer and physicist, Geoff Landis:
- -----------------------------------
From: "Geoffrey A. Landis" <geoffrey.landis@lerc.nasa.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.space.tech,rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Survival in a Vaccuum
Date: 2 Aug 1996 13:32:31 GMT
Organization: Ohio Aerospace Institute

Every six months this question gets asked.  Consult the sci.space FAQ;
it's discussed in great detail there.

Briefly, survival in vacuum is probably possible for a minute or so. 
Consciousness will go away much more rapidly than that.

 from _Bioastronautics Data Book_, Second edition, NASA SP-3006, edited
by James F. Parker and Vita R. West, 1973, in the article "Chapter 1:
Barometric Pressure," by Charles E. Billings:

page 5, (following a general discussion of low pressures and ebullism):
[on decompression to vacuum] "Some degree of consciousness will probably
be retained for 9 to 11 seconds (see chapter 2 under Hypoxia).  In rapid
sequence thereafter, paralysis will be followed by generalized
convulsions and paralysis once again.  During this time, water vapor will
form rapidly in the soft tissues and somewhat less rapidly in the venous
blood.  This evolution of water vapor will cause marked swelling of the
body to perhaps twice its normal volume unless it is restrained by a
pressure suit.  (It has been demonstrated that a properly fitted elastic
garment can entirely prevent ebullism at pressures as low as 15 mm Hg
absolute [Webb, 1969, 1970].)  Heart rate may rise initially, but will
fall rapidly thereafter.  Arterial blood pressure will also fall over a
period of 30 to 60 seconds,  while venous pressure rises due to
distention of the venous system by gas and vapor.  Venous pressure will
meet or exceed arterial pressure within one minute.  There will be
virtually no effective circulation of blood.  After an initial rush of
gas from the lungs during decompression, gas and water vapor will
continue to flow outward through the airways.  This continual evaporation
of water will cool the mouth and nose to near-freezing temperatures; the
remainder of the body will also become cooled, but more slowly.

"Cook and Bancroft (1966) reported occasional deaths of animals due to
fibrillation of the heart during the first minute of exposure to near
vacuum conditions.  Ordinarily, however, survival was the rule if
recompression occurred within about 90 seconds. ... Once heart action
ceased, death was inevitable, despite attempts at resuscitation....
[on recompression] Breathing usually began spontaneously... Neurological
problems, including blindness and other defects in vision, were common
after exposures (see problems due to evolved gas), but usually
disappeared fairly rapidly.

"It is very unlikely that a human suddenly exposed to a vacuum would have
more than 5 to 10 seconds to help himself.  If immediate help is at hand,
although one"s appearance and condition will be grave, it is reasonable
to assume that recompression to a tolerable pressure (200 mm Hg, 3.8
psia) within 60 to 90 seconds could result in survival, and possibly in
rather rapid recovery."
____________________________________________
Geoffrey A. Landis,
Ohio Aerospace Institute at NASA Lewis Research Center
physicist and part-time science fiction writer

- ----------------------

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."



------------------------------

From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (R.D. Elliott)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 07:23:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Effects of high G on humans?

Charles Collin wrote:

>
>====RD Elliot said:==========
>        Quick question here: what is the maximum length of time that
>humans can withstand high accelerations (say 10G) without grav
>compensation:
>
>a) unaided?
>b) in an acceleration couch?
>c) in a grav tank?
>d) in a low berth?
>
>        I've got this TL8-9 ship design I'm working on, and I'm just
>trying to figure out how big an engine I can put in it without killing the
>crew :)?
>=========================
>
>Unaided I'd say the highest gravity you could stand for periods of
>days/weeks would be 2g.  Maybe 3g with limited movement and a lot of time
>spent on acc couches.  Humans can stand pretty high g maneuvers (up to
>about 8g) for periods of minutes or seconds.  Their time to
>unconsciousness can be greatly increased by the use of a "squeeze suit"
>(official term anyone?).  These are basically suits which inflate to
>squeeze your lower extremities (and in more recent versions, upper
>extremities as well) to force blood into your head.  Using those, some
>individuals can stand up to 9 or 10 g for very short periods.


        They're called G-suits.  Apparently, fighter pilots are also taught
this particular rapid-fire grunting technique that also forces blood to the
brain...


>In
>primitive navies, such systems would likely be built into Vac suits.
>
>Not sure what you mean by a Grav Tank.  Do you mean one of those big
>nasty, heavily armed grav vehicles? :-)

        Ye gods no :).  The SDS document that Ross loaned me has this item
called grav tanks in lieu of gravitics at tl-8.  Apparently you put the
crew in them during accelleration.  I was just wondering what effect they
have


>In the more likely event you mean
>some sort of liquid suspension chamber or soemthing like that, my answer
>is "good question!"  I have no idea.  Ditto for the low berths: It depends
>if an individual in the low berth is frozen or not.
>
>Doesn't gravitics come in at TL 8 now anyways?
>


        Yeah, but they'd be out of place in what I have in mind...


>Charles.
>
><0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller    <0>
><0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca),                   <0>
><0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.                        <0>
><0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.            <0>
><0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html                    <0>
>

        Hm... I spend most of my days at 3647 Peel...  Lunch at Thompson
House one of these days sound fun?



*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Roderick Darroch Elliott...      ...rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca |
*-------------------------------------------------------------*



------------------------------

From: jeff_michelle norton <103010.212@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 24 Sep 96 07:27:11 EDT
Subject: Thanks, Dave

	My thanks goes out to David Watson who provided the Ine Givar document.
It will help out greatly.
	

	Jeff Norton

	Life is a minefield...


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 06:58:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RPSC Available on Website!

OK, folks ... here's RPSC 0.90 as HTML, Adobe Acrobat, WordPerfect, and Word
documents! 

	http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/rpsc/start.htm

Send any comments about the documents to the mailing list; send any 
comments about the web page to wildstar@qrc.com.

Enjoy!

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 24 Sep 1996 08:55:51 GMT
Subject: Shadow Plans Delayed

After teaching from 08h45 to 22h00 yesterday, I ran out of steam before
posting the Shadow plans to the web.  With luck, they'll be there tonight. 
Sorry for delay.

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 96 10:26:22 -0400
Subject: David Brin's Aliens

Rob Priorwrote:
>ii) All of David Brin's races from the Uplift series of books. (I use these
>in my Traveller campaign.)

Do you have any of these written up?  Want to let us have a look?  
Lewis Roberts

------------------------------

From: galliand@juno.com
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 11:38:09 EDT
Subject: Re: David Brin's Aliens

Did you use Steve Jackson Games' GURPS Uplift for any of the stuff?  Just
wondering.  I have it, and it is really a great addition to anyone who is
a fan of the Uplift saga.  Only goes up through The Uplift War, though.

Scott Galliand

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 13:59:09 +0000
Subject: Re: Thanks, Dave

What Ine Givar doc?
I just joined, could someone, anyone send it to me...PLEASE
I would really appreciate it

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #450
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Traveller-digest        Wednesday, 25 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 451

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Gauss
         2. Re: Time to vent to vacuum.
         3. Re: NAH: What need to be done
         4. semi-auto tranq
         5. Re: [T96#448] Freelance Traveller
         6. Re: [T96#447] Freelance Traveller
         7. Re: [T96#447] Character Generation
         8. William F Hostman
         9. Re: Re: David Brin's Aliens
        10. Shadows Plans Online (finally)
        11. Good Alien Source
        12. Newbie question
        13. Re: Shadows Plans Online (finally)
        14. Re: Newbie question
        15. Re: Shadows Plans Online (finally)
        16. Re: [T96#447] Character Generation
        17. Re: Gauss
        18. Re: Time to vent to vacuum.
        19. & sundry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DJessup938@aol.com
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:26:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Gauss

I think recent reserch has shown it is not viable to accelerate a projectile
using magnetic liniar acceleration beyond about 3000 meters a second i could
be wrong on this figure but it boils down to the fact that at least in an
atmosphere  the projectile would not be effecitve

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:04:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Time to vent to vacuum.

Hi George Roelke (et al).

	Someone answered your question about vacuum, but gave you the
standard data on what happens once you reach vaccuum.  If I read you
correctly, you want to know how long it takes for the ship/vacc
suit/whatever to empty, right?  Well, I'm no engineer, but here's my
(grossly oversimplified and possibly just plain wrong :-) take on it:
	Air will move out the hole at about 330 m/s (I'm just intutively
assuming it will move at the speed of sound if not faster).
	So, take the area of the hole and multiply it by 330 for the
volume of air that will leave per second.  This means that a 1 m2 hole
will vent 330 m3 of air per second.  An entire scout courier full of air
will be gone in a little over 4 seconds.  A vacc suit with a 1 cm2
(.0001 m2) hole would vent .0330 m3 per second.  Assuming that the suit
has about .33 m3 of air volume, you'd have about 10 secs before it emptied
(of course, that's not taking into account the fact that the tanks are
feeding more air in as air is leaving).
	Now, this ignores a ton of factors such as the fact that the air
will move faster as it gets thinner, and all those fluid dynamic things
your engineering buddies mentioned, but it should give a decent ballpark
figure (At least they "feel" right to me).

Comments? Criticisms? Ranting Flames?  (<--in order of pref)

Charles.


<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>



------------------------------

From: hal@buffnet.net
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:28:23 -0400
Subject: Re: NAH: What need to be done

At 10:01 AM 9/24/96 +0100, you wrote:
>>All that being said, FFS probably does understate passive sensor ranges,
>>but it's sort of already locked into stone by SSDS/QSDS. We might consider
>>extending the table with still-larger sensors for really big ships and
>>ground installations, of course. (And also distinguishing between detecting
>>a target and getting a fire control lock.)
>>
>>Bruce
>
>Just a note: NASA managed a few years ago to detect Venus from earth with
>radar, they used the Arecibo dish (300m diam I think) and a hell of a lot
>of power. Most humans at night can see venus with their naked eyes from
>reflected solar light. It's hard to beat 1/(r^2) with 1/(r^4).

I have just one question on this passive versus active debate...

  Granted that certain objects are visible to the mark one visual sensor
that might not be available to the mechanical.  My main question is the
quality of the sensor data.  The average mark I visual sensor cannot "map"
the surface of Venus, whereas the radar can.  The mark I eyeball can see the
planet Venus, but can it give the speed, and relative position of the object
moving etc with enough accuracy for the purpose for which sensors are needed? 

  In short, rather than watch this "debate" go any further towards useless
debate - perhaps the concentration of what sensors do is more important.  If
active sensors can give you dimensions, mass, direction of travel, as well
as other information, and perhaps do it faster, then that is why Active
Sensors are "better" for the purpose of navigation and warfare.  On the
other hand, maybe passive sensors are better in resolution than active, but
the time it takes to get the "fix" or the value of the data is not precise
enough - well, then passive sensors will have to remain as a secondary role
sensor...

  One thing that I suspect that passive sensors should be better than active
sensors is the concept of (I think I have the right term here) "occlusion".
Have a computer "fix" all light sources in the "memory".  Then watch for
when some object moves in front of a light source.  Then, "flag" the sensor
operator's attention when that happens.  9 times out of 10, it will be an
asteroid or some such nonsense.  But that 10th time might be the enemy ship
attempting to sneak up on your position...

Just thinking...

Hal


------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:54:47 -0500
Subject: semi-auto tranq

>        Or perhaps the fact that firing tranq rounds means you want the
>target alive ... and an overdose of tranq from a solid automatic burst will
>be just as fatal as lead.

  This is the best answer I've heard so far...


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love."
 - Turkish Proverb   		http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 96 17:20:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#448] Freelance Traveller

T::>4) At what point does a planet's hydrosphere become sufficient enought to
 ::>earn it a black dot on the map rather than a circle?  I ask this question
 ::>because I've noticed some worlds have Hydrospheres of 2 or 3 and are
 ::>still listed on the map with the circle not the dot.

 Nope!  That's not a question that Freelance Traveller can
 answer - at least not "Canonically".

 When I am generating my own maps, I generally say that a 3
 should be a filled in circle (or a blue dot on color maps).  A
 2 is generally an open circle/white dot.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Did you know that an anagram for 'Senator' is 'Treason'?

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 96 17:20:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#447] Freelance Traveller

T::>I sat down last night to start an article for Freelance Traveller.  It
 ::>involves outlining a bunch of explanations for UWPs which seem
 ::>contraintuitive (e.g. unbreathable atmospheres with low TL, little
 ::>rockball worlds with huge populations, etc.). Basically, I was picturing
 ::>it as a resource for those GMs suffering from imagination burnout.  I have
 ::>few questions regarding this topic:

 Sounds like an article!  Go for it!

T::>1) Have there been any previous articles published on this?  I've
 ::>only seen "Preventing complacency in Traveller", which was an article in
 ::>(hiss! spit!) "Dragon" on how to spice up "normal" UWPs.

 Freelance Traveller is not Dragon.  Repeat that to yourself
 every time you have such an obscene thought.  Freelance
 Traveller is not any other magazine.  Repeat _that_ to yourself
 whenever you start worrying whether a magazine other than
 Freelance Traveller has published an article on a subject.

T::>2) What explanations for odd UWPs have you come up with in your games?
 ::>What are your favorites from published sources?

 I never read any such explanations from published sources - and
 the ones I've made up no longer sound plausible, even to me.

T::>3) Who's running Freelance Traveller and how do I subscribe, submit an
 ::>article, etc.?  (Yes, I know this info has been posted already, so email
 ::>me directly please and thank you).

 Yours Truly is the Editor-in-Chief (and the entire editorial
 staff, at the moment); you can submit an article to me by
 emailing it to jeff.zeitlin@earth.execnet.com with a subject
 line that starts [FT SUB].  Also, while I can't claim to
 rigorously enforce them, you might want to visit the magazine
 (http://www.dragonfire.net/~FreelanceTraveller/) and check the
 submission guidelines.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Joy can be many things.


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 96 17:20:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#447] Character Generation

T::>During the character creation process for "Marc Miller's Traveller," we
 ::>discovered several problems we would like you to address.  No, this "we" is
 ::>not the Imperial "we", but just my gaming group. <grin>  Okay, here they are:

T::>1.  Does the Flight School (T4, pg. 28) endow +1 to Education to reflect the
 ::>year spent in school?  All the other "post-graduation" schools do.

 I would rule not - the other schools are all multi-year
 schools, where general knowledge is an important component of
 the curriculum, even where the school itself is a specialty
 school (e.g., Med School).  Flight School is really just
 intensive training in matters pertaining to ship operations and
 navigation; it's not really broad enough IMO to warrant an
 additional +1 EDU.  I'd rule the same way with regards to a
 Police Academy postgrading, incidentally.

T::>2.  In T4, pg. 31 in the first merchant table, the first "skill" is listed
 ::>as -1 Dex.  Is this right, should a "benefit" ever hurt you?  This same
 ::>problem occurs on pg. 33, in the first Noble table (-1 Str) and on pg. 34 in
 ::>the first Scholar table both -1 Str and -1 Dex.  Maybe this was the
 ::>intention of the authors, but it just seems inconsistent to me.

 It does seem strange, doesn't it?  But consider - all three
 occupations potentially entail a large number of assignments
 where physical activity is at a minimum - and when you spend
 your time sitting at a desk, your physical training is likely
 to suffer.  These reflect that.

 Or at least, that's how I'll play it until I see something that
 indicates that it's Yet Another Missed Editing Error.

T::>3.  In T4, pg. 31 on the Benefits Table, in the Mustering out section on
 ::>item 6.  Is this supposed to be "Low Passage?"  Many of the other careers
 ::>have "High Passage" listed in that slot, should this be changed to "High
 ::>Passage?"

 This one I'm pretty sure is YAMEE.  I'd read it as High
 Passage.

T::>4.  During the Mustering out process, if someone rolls Traveller's Aid
 ::>Society twice what should happen?  I have also encountered a problem of when
 ::>a person's characteristic has reached maximum (F) and they have rolled to
 ::>increase it again.  I think I am going to handle it by just having them
 ::>re-roll on the table.  Am I missing something in the book that clarifies this?

 Not that I'm aware of.  I'm also a "crueler" GM than you are -
 a "wasted" roll is just that - wasted.

T::>5.  Small suggestion about "Injury" during the character creation process.
 ::>I've begun thinking of these as "Career Crises."  This seem to capture what
 ::>is actually happening to your character.  Injury implies a lost
 ::>characteristic to me, and this is never the case.  I created a Merchant last
 ::>night, that went through the Merchant Academy with honors only be kicked out
 ::>of the Merchants during his first term.  I think this character was caught
 ::>sleeping with the daughter of a high placed corporate type, and that is why
 ::>he had to leave a promising career in the Merchants and enlist in the
 ::>Scouts.  <grin>

 Not a bad alternative.  Just a "color" issue, rather than one
 that actually affects the system.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Why My Laughin' Sure Ain't Funny.


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 24 Sep 1996 19:52:52 GMT
Subject: William F Hostman

When I reply to your messages the mail is returned with a 'too many hops'
error.  Stangely, most of the hops are loop from one computer to itself. 
Sample follows:

	id AIDJBFCF ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:57:20 -0500
X-ROUTED: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:57:20 -0500
Received: from asylumbbs.com [204.17.241.132] by asylumbbs.com with smtp
	id AICJBBEG ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:41:16 -0500
X-ROUTED: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:41:16 -0500
Received: from asylumbbs.com [204.17.241.132] by asylumbbs.com with smtp

Anyone know how to fix this problem?

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 24 Sep 1996 19:59:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: David Brin's Aliens

>Do you have any of these written up?  Want to let us have a look?  

Yup.  I can't find the stats right now (buried somewhere in my garage) -
remind me on the weekend.


>Did you use Steve Jackson Games' GURPS Uplift for any of the stuff?  Just
>wondering.  I have it, and it is really a great addition to anyone who is
>a fan of the Uplift saga.  Only goes up through The Uplift War, though.

Yup.  Hate GURPS as a system, but liked the book.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 24 Sep 1996 19:50:49 GMT
Subject: Shadows Plans Online (finally)

I finally made the time to get the floor plans from the CT Shadows adventure
online.

Nothing against Marc and GDW, but gad! those rules look primitive now. 
Special throws for everything, no consistency even with the adventure, etc. 
I'll definately run this again, probably at at tournament, but I'll want to
clean up the rules first.

I didn't include the lowest level (still working on it) and most of the
rules.  I did include most of the descriptions, and I'll update with the rest
later, after I finish marking (probably not until the weekend at this rate).

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 24 Sep 1996 20:02:27 GMT
Subject: Good Alien Source

The October issue of Analog has a fact article about Epona, a fantastically
detailed world created at a Contact convention.  Amazing stuff: geology,
astronomy, biology...

And there's a novella by Nordley set on the world, to make it come alive.  

This is an issue worth buying.  (OK, I subscribe, but I'm considering buying
a copy for my school library, out of my own pocket, in the hopes of showing a
few kids that _real_ science fiction can be really fun.)

------------------------------

From: Dave Strebe <strebe@max-net.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 17:20:58 -0700
Subject: Newbie question

After a 15 year absence from playing traveller I picked up the new T4 
rules and started a game. But I have come up with some questions
- -1 Does the Imperium pay out salvage for ships that were abbandoned, 
found and returned to them ie the Rubicon, and if so at what percentage?
- -2 My group has a problem with the weight of the reload for the laser 
rifle we think it is too heavy maybe a misprint?
That's all for now
Thanks
Dave

------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 21:11:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Shadows Plans Online (finally)

In a message dated 96-09-24 20:59:10 EDT, you write:

<< Nothing against Marc and GDW, but gad! those rules look primitive now.
Special throws for everything, no consistency even within the adventure, etc.
I'll definitely run this again, probably at a tournament, but I'll want to
clean up the rules first. >>

That just goes to show you how far the universe of role-playing has come
since the late 70's. And aren't we glad.

Marc Miller


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 20:51:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Newbie question

On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Dave Strebe wrote:

> After a 15 year absence from playing traveller I picked up the new T4 
> rules and started a game. But I have come up with some questions

Welcome back, Dave! :)


> -1 Does the Imperium pay out salvage for ships that were abbandoned, 
> found and returned to them ie the Rubicon, and if so at what percentage?

IMO, it would be a judgement call by the referee as to what would be done 
about such ships.  Ships are expensive - so truly abandoned ships that 
are in working order are going to be awful rare.  Plus, if someone still 
retains legal ownership of the ship, that will be a factor.

If a ship is found which is Imperial property, /my/ Imperium wouldn't pay 
a single credit to the person returning it beyond perhaps the expenses 
associated with doing so.  The local branch of the Imperial government 
would probably do some intense questioning and investigation to determine 
if the people who "found" the ship might have been the cause of its being 
"lost" in the first place.

Those who find ships which belong to others (megacorps, individuals, 
whatever) may be greeted with reward money, mistrust, or anything else, 
depending on the personality of the owner.

Found ships may be turned in for scrap and/or resold and/or used by the 
finder(s), but as with automobiles, they'd better be careful not to get 
caught doing these things to a ship they don't own.  However, there are 
undoubtedly underground organizations that would "file off the serial 
numbers" (so to speak) for a fee...with varying results depending on a 
variety of factors (skill of the individual(s) performing this service, 
for example).

But that's just in MY game.  I haven't seen a difinitive answer in any of 
the published material...but I don't own the MT/TNE stuff.


> -2 My group has a problem with the weight of the reload for the laser 
> rifle we think it is too heavy maybe a misprint?

The "reload" for a laser rifle is actually a power pack which is 
connected to the rifle by a cable.  So, the weight doesn't seem 
to be out of line, IMO.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 20:59:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Shadows Plans Online (finally)

On Tue, 24 Sep 1996 FarFuture@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 96-09-24 20:59:10 EDT, you write:
> 
> << Nothing against Marc and GDW, but gad! those rules look primitive now.
> Special throws for everything, no consistency even within the adventure, etc.
> I'll definitely run this again, probably at a tournament, but I'll want to
> clean up the rules first. >>
> 
> That just goes to show you how far the universe of role-playing has come
> since the late 70's. And aren't we glad.

Not to be a total curmudgeon, but I like the old way as well as the new.  
Without a unified task system, you get the freedom to design specific 
rules however you want.  Not that a having a task system disallows 
this... it just makes it "un-canonical." :)

Both methods have their good and bad points, as with anything.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 19:07:33 -0700
Subject: Re: [T96#447] Character Generation

At 05:20 PM 9/24/96 -0500, you wrote:

>T::>1.  Does the Flight School (T4, pg. 28) endow +1 to Education to
reflect the
> ::>year spent in school?  All the other "post-graduation" schools do.

> school (e.g., Med School).  Flight School is really just
> intensive training in matters pertaining to ship operations and
> navigation; it's not really broad enough IMO to warrant an
> additional +1 EDU.  I'd rule the same way with regards to a
> Police Academy postgrading, incidentally.

I can see your point here.  Interestingly enough I have a friend in the
police academy who is receiving 30 college credits for his training.  Flight
School probably doesn't warrant a plus one for education.

>T::>2.  In T4, pg. 31 in the first merchant table, the first "skill" is listed
> ::>as -1 Dex.  Is this right, should a "benefit" ever hurt you?  This same
> ::>problem occurs on pg. 33, in the first Noble table (-1 Str) and on pg.
34 in
> ::>the first Scholar table both -1 Str and -1 Dex.  Maybe this was the
> ::>intention of the authors, but it just seems inconsistent to me.
>
> It does seem strange, doesn't it?  But consider - all three
> occupations potentially entail a large number of assignments
> where physical activity is at a minimum - and when you spend
> your time sitting at a desk, your physical training is likely
> to suffer.  These reflect that.
>
> Or at least, that's how I'll play it until I see something that
> indicates that it's Yet Another Missed Editing Error.

I was poking around in the classic Traveller books and came across several
examples where you receive a negative modifier during the character creation
process.  I guess I would feel better if all the character types had some
sort of negative modifier during the character creation process.  Once again
my GURP's background rears its ugly head.

Thanks Jeff for the input,

Regards,

Matthew Mactyre
mmactyre@concentric.net
http://www.cris.com/~mmactyre/
PGP public key available on request


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 22:34:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Gauss

On Tue, 24 Sep 1996 DJessup938@aol.com wrote:

> I think recent reserch has shown it is not viable to accelerate a projectile
> using magnetic liniar acceleration beyond about 3000 meters a second i could
> be wrong on this figure but it boils down to the fact that at least in an
> atmosphere  the projectile would not be effecitve

   Do you know how fast 3000m/sec is?

   Modern tank rounds are *devastating* at lower energy levels. _I_ would
be perfectly happy with an infantry weapon that "only" did 3000m/sec.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 22:46:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Time to vent to vacuum.

On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Charles Collin wrote:
> 	Someone answered your question about vacuum, but gave you the
> standard data on what happens once you reach vaccuum.  If I read you
> correctly, you want to know how long it takes for the ship/vacc
> suit/whatever to empty, right?  Well, I'm no engineer, but here's my
> (grossly oversimplified and possibly just plain wrong :-) take on it:
> 	Air will move out the hole at about 330 m/s (I'm just intutively
> assuming it will move at the speed of sound if not faster).
   ^^^^                         ^^^^^^^^^^^
[snip]
> 	Now, this ignores a ton of factors such as the fact that the air
> will move faster as it gets thinner, and all those fluid dynamic things
> your engineering buddies mentioned, but it should give a decent ballpark
> figure (At least they "feel" right to me).
> 
> Comments? Criticisms? Ranting Flames?  (<--in order of pref)

   I'm not sure this is a valid assumption - gut feeling tells me airflow
will _slow_sown_ as pressure drops, not the reverse. Air escape is fueled
by random brownian motion of the molecules within the container, and the
lower the pressure, the fewer molecules you have banging down the doors.

   As a mind experiment, picture a balloon full of air. It stands to
reason that a tighter balloon is going to spew air faster than a "loose"
balloon and as the ballon empties the airflow will slow down and
eventually stop.

   I'm sure that the speed of sound enters into the equation, but as a
limiting factor not a "prime mover".

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 96 03:53:00 GMT 
Subject: & sundry

Susan M. Shock

> I believe he still lives in the Chicago area.

Marc Lives in Bloomington Illinois, which is about 3 hours drive
from Chicago and about 5 (?) from Lake Geneva Wisconsin.

> They'll arrive eventually. But if this is what we can expect from
> IG's printer, I have some serious advice;
> Get a new printer!

This sort of thing can happen with _any_ printer...since there are a
finite number of printers in any given area (a finite number capable
of doing 4c process, anyway), if you keep moving on after each
screw-up, you eventually run out of printers.


Re: Mortgage Skippers, Skip Tracers and More

This subject was dealt with in a JTAS in an article called
"Giving the Bank a Fighting Chance"

> Of course as a good friend of several of the RAFM and GDW staff
> actually getting them was never a big problem.

Ah...the good old days...graft and corruption...Yes, the Citadel figs
were _great!_ Wish I had held onto more of them.



Susan M. Shock

> Do you think the continual "GDW is going under" talk
> might have contributed to it's actual demise?

In a word: yes.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #451
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Traveller-digest        Wednesday, 25 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 452

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Gauss
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #450
         3. Re: Vacuum exposure (from: Spacing the OS2 & Linux dudes?)
         4. Re: High Tech Warfare
         5. Re: NAH: What need to be done
         6. SSCS (was BASIC SHIP COMBAT SYSTEM FIXES)
         7. Re: Spinward Marches page (traveller library index)
         8. Grav Tanks
         9. RPSC: Comments?
        10. Re: Newbie question
        11. Re: Newbie question
        12. Chris Cox?
        13. Re: Re: Shadows Plans Online (finally)
        14. Comments on Deck Plans
        15. Re: High Tech Warfare
        16. Re: Newbie question
        17. Re: Comments on Deck Plans
        18. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446
        19. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #449

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 09:23:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Gauss

Larry Hadley wrote:
> =

> On Tue, 24 Sep 1996 DJessup938@aol.com wrote:
>
> > using magnetic liniar acceleration beyond about 3000 meters a second i =
could
> > be wrong on this figure but it boils down to the fact that at least in =
an
> > atmosphere  the projectile would not be effecitve
> =

>    Do you know how fast 3000m/sec is?
> =


First:
Hi there! I'm a newbie to this list and to Traveller at a whole. I =

recently started Megatraveller (I know, it's off) and now a bunch of lads =

and me are playing the first campaign. I posted it to G=F6ran's site.

Second:
Projectiles, moving 3000m/s are really quite fast. If you fire them =

against a person, it would die from shock in an instant, no matter, where =

you hit it.

Cya!
Buddy
- -- =

# Disclaimer: All opinions stated are only MY OWN.
# Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at =

# ADV - Anwendungsentwicklung
# Graphisch Technischer Bereich

------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 18:17:22 +1300
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #450

> 
>         How long does it take for a punctured vacc suit, hull, etc., to vent
> to vacuum?  Specifically, given a certain volume of air, and a hole of a
> certain area/size, how long does it take to vent to 0 atmospheres?
> 
>         This comes up often with my group, usually because of bullet holes
> in non-sealing vacc suits, etc.  Once or twice the _Aliens_ huge hole in
> the hull situation has come up as well.

I don't know the exact dynamics but have always understood that 
explosive decompression occurs when a non-sealing vaccum suit is 
punctured. The pressure difference between the inside of the suit (and 
the inside of the occupant of the suit for that matter) is so great that 
the escaping atmosphere bubble would certainly quickly enlarge the 
puncture and possibly tear the suit open. A similar fate would be the 
occupants despite his/her efforts to deflate lungs and contract muscles. 
The pressurised contents of the occupants body would soon cause the body 
to explode.
Huge holes in the hull are serious also for the same reason. Again, I 
have to say I don't know the specific dynamics of this process, but 
should the hole in the hull not be large enough, and the surrounding 
material not durable enough, to allow the rapid escape of the 
pressurised air bubble the hole may be enlarged. A small hole in the 
hull could result in a huge hole very quickly - hence the term explosive 
decompression. A similar thing happens in aircraft flying at high 
altitude if one of the portal windows is blown out or the like.

It is common for ship entering a combat situation to decompress all 
sections of the ship to avoid possible explosive decompresion should the 
hull be breached.  

> 
>         I have never been able to believe that the airlock in _Aliens_ could
> be open for 30 seconds without any ill effects...
> 

Yeh, that sucked badly! 
> 

        I have posed the question to some mechanical engineer friends, 
who
> shake their heads, tell me the problem is a very complicated fluid
> dynamics problem, depending heavily on the size and shape of the hole,
> etc etc.  No answers.
> 
>         Does anyone know of a good ballpark way of estimating this?
> A handy equation using volume and area of the hole would be ideal.
> Suggestions?
> 

I tried making one up a few years ago so I could get an idea of the 
thrust that would be generated by the explosive venting of a section of 
a ship. This was because of the actions of a few players who were 
determined that would be their plan B of escape from having their 
dead ship draged into a planet.
I'd have to pass on a formula. sorry.


------------------------------

From: Steven Ward <Steven.Ward@brunel.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 12:53:10 BST
Subject: Re: Vacuum exposure (from: Spacing the OS2 & Linux dudes?)

I read with interest in Focus magazine about this.  The body would just 
freeze-dry itself in about a minute and a half.  No messy explosions I am 
afraid.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen? It's been 15 hours. We are gonna grow old and die in here. 
Stephen? Stephen, there's a Martian war machine parked outside. 
They'd like to have a word with you about the common cold." 
- -- Vance Hendricks to Dr. Franklin in Babylon 5:"Infection"

Steven Ward
E-Mail: Steven.Ward@Brunel.ac.uk 
World wide web: http://www.wlihe.ac.uk/~ward/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------






------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 21:49:10 PST
Subject: Re: High Tech Warfare

In mail you write:

>> Yes, and they were more successful with it than Iraq was.  They also had
>> insane numbers of highly obsolete Soviet SA/8 (I think it was)
>> heat-seaking SAMs, which had to get within about 500 yards of a plane to
>> get a decent tracking lock.  So they'd launch dozens of them, more or
>> less straight up, from sites about a thousand yards apart, all over the
>> target area...and there was no way the US pilot could avoid flying within
>> 500 yards of *one* of them.
>
> Youch! Who needs AEGIS when you have Pack-o-SAM(tm) ;) I thought the SA-9 
> was the cheapo 
> heat-seeker . . . .

This reminds me of a bit of film I saw once. One of the most
interesting examples of "technology transfer" I ever saw, and something
for refs to keep in mind.

It showed some North Vietnamese villagers collecting pieces of downed
aircraft and melting them down to make cookware!

Consider that any culture from the Bronze age on (TL 1?) can likely do
similar "salvage" work on the remains of your high tech military gear. 

A scenario. A ship has crashed on a low tech world, and your players
have been hired to investigate the crash. Picture their reactions when
they find the natives busily converting evidence into tools and pots.
And picture the natives' reaction when these outsiders want them to
give up all this lovely metal!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 01:28:40 PST
Subject: Re: NAH: What need to be done

In mail you write:

>>Just a note: NASA managed a few years ago to detect Venus from earth with
>>radar, they used the Arecibo dish (300m diam I think) and a hell of a lot
>>of power. Most humans at night can see venus with their naked eyes from
>>reflected solar light. It's hard to beat 1/(r^2) with 1/(r^4).
>
> I have just one question on this passive versus active debate...
>
>   Granted that certain objects are visible to the mark one visual sensor
> that might not be available to the mechanical.  My main question is the
> quality of the sensor data.  The average mark I visual sensor cannot "map"
> the surface of Venus, whereas the radar can.  The mark I eyeball can see the
> planet Venus, but can it give the speed, and relative position of the object
> moving etc with enough accuracy for the purpose for which sensors are 
> needed? 

Do note that the radar maps of Venus were *not* generated by bouncing
pulses off it from Earth. The most we could do from earth is get a
rough idea of surface roughness, and determine the rotation rate. 

The radar maps came from an *orbiter*.

>   One thing that I suspect that passive sensors should be better than active
> sensors is the concept of (I think I have the right term here) "occlusion".
> Have a computer "fix" all light sources in the "memory".  Then watch for
> when some object moves in front of a light source.  Then, "flag" the sensor
> operator's attention when that happens.  9 times out of 10, it will be an
> asteroid or some such nonsense.  But that 10th time might be the enemy ship
> attempting to sneak up on your position...

But those light sources are a *long* ways apart. Quick! How many
visible stars are blocked by the moon (on average)?


The odds are 30 to 1 *against* there being *any* visible stars occluded
by the moon at any given time.

Likewise, ships block *really* small areas of sky, because they are
small, and far away. Again, the odds of one blocking a source you can
detect are slim. 

There have been a few attempts to get data about asteroids by having
amatuer astronomers attempt to view occulations of stars. It's a major
pain to observe such, and we know where the stars are an have a fair
idea of where the asteroid ought to be.

More to the point, have the sensors look for "light" sources that move
or are interrmittent. Most will be known objects (easily filtered
ought). More will be space junk and known ships. And most of the
remainder will be sensor glitches. But you will discover new objects.
And some of them may be ships.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 08:30:37 -0400
Subject: SSCS (was BASIC SHIP COMBAT SYSTEM FIXES)

At 09:40 PM 9/24/96 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Susan M. Shock wrote:

>> To tell you the truth, I
>> probably won't even use this now that I've seen RPSC 0.90.
>
>Well, I still think there is a place for a "fixed" BSCS, just as there is 
>a place for the awesomely-detailed ship combat system the NAH crowd is 
>going to come up with.
>
>If you can get BSCS fixed, it'd be nice to see it offered on a web 
>site..perhaps spirit.com.au - James Dempsey's site.  And/or, put it in 
>Freelance Traveller.  It should be out there as an option.

For those looking for a combat system that is somewhere between a fixed BSCS
and RPSC, check out the combat system that I designed/modified from RPSC:

  http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss/t4/sscs.htm

SSCS (Simple Space Combat System) is designed to be a space combat system
for use with PBeM Traveller games, so much of the complexity of RPSC has
been abstracted.  If you like RPSC, you'll be pleased to find several of
it's components in SSCS.

Feedback welcomed!

  James Garriss          |  Counter Genocide
  jpg@langley.mitre.org  |  A Traveller Story in Progress
                         |  http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss/


------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 00:10:33 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: Spinward Marches page (traveller library index)

Dear Rob -

>Thanks for your last mail. I like the look of your pages, and was 
>initially frustrated that the pages were broken. :-)

Sorry. I'm still playing with the format, which is why many things still do
not work. The majority of the links are not even in yet! I think that I will
remove the full http address and simply reference the pages by relative
reference. This will make it easier to use offline. Also, I will rationalise
things later - for example, I plan on combining "Battleship", "Battle
Rider", "Cruiser" etc onto one page. I won't make one page per alphabet
letter - this will slow loading, especially when I start adding pictures -
but I will try to combine things that logically belong together.

>On a lighter note, perhaps you can tell me what the 
>  CALL GetPageAndGo   code does. I am interested in HTML (having pages 

This is a hangover from the Amiga. To get the Library Data to fit in the
Amy's memory, I had to create one page per item. The AREXX macro called
"GetPageAndGo" scans the current Hyperbook pages. If the page is found, it
jumps to it. If not, it loads the page first, and _then_ jumps to it.

I have left these here as a reminder to me of what I have yet to link! Yeah,
I could have made them comments, but (a) I'm lazy and (b) if they are
visible, sooner or later I'll get so annoyed at them that I will complete
the links! (nice theory, anyway ;-)

>One last thing before I sign off... The page 
>http://pcug.org.au/~davidjw/libdata/S/spinward.htm has another typo on it.

Ah yes - I fixed that a week ago and forgot to upload the fix!

Thank you for you comments - I haven't yet mastered the Counter and it is
nice to know that someone *is* visiting!
________________________________________________________________________
Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson)                         davidjw@pcug.org.au
http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"


------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 96 10:17:14 -0400
Subject: Grav Tanks

>>In
>>primitive navies, such systems would likely be built into Vac suits.
>>
>>Not sure what you mean by a Grav Tank.  Do you mean one of those big
>>nasty, heavily armed grav vehicles? :-)

>        Ye gods no :).  The SDS document that Ross loaned me has this item
>called grav tanks in lieu of gravitics at tl-8.  Apparently you put the
>crew in them during accelleration.  I was just wondering what effect they
>have

In FFS and SSDS Grav tanks are large vats full of water or some other
fluid, they allow passengers and crew to ignore one g of acceleration.

Lewis

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 09:43:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RPSC: Comments?

Hi,

I've set up a folder to which I'm going to save all suggestions for 
tweaks to RPSC.  So far, I have:

1)  Explain the ship sides (Bow, Forward Side, After Side, Stern) better 
in terms of which portions of a ship to which they refer.

2)  Replace the ASCII drawings with real graphics.

Any other suggestions for clarifications, or any other suggestions?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 13:14:22 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Newbie question

Moin Joe Walsh,

> IMO, it would be a judgement call by the referee as to what would be done 
> about such ships.  Ships are expensive - so truly abandoned ships that 
> are in working order are going to be awful rare.  Plus, if someone still 
> retains legal ownership of the ship, that will be a factor.
> 
> If a ship is found which is Imperial property, /my/ Imperium wouldn't pay 
> a single credit to the person returning it beyond perhaps the expenses 
> associated with doing so. 

	Current (1996) practice is that Loyds will pay 10% of
	ship and cargo. A friend of mine got rich this way.

	I dont think that this whould change in the Imperium.

> The local branch of the Imperial government 
> would probably do some intense questioning and investigation to determine 
> if the people who "found" the ship might have been the cause of its being 
> "lost" in the first place.

	Of course there will be investigations, Loyds is a bank
	and have you ever seen a bank, giving money without asking
	questions ;-)

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: "Brian T. Simmons" <mrwizard@onramp.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 09:56:16 -0700
Subject: Re: Newbie question

On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Dave Strebe wrote:

> 
> -1 Does the Imperium pay out salvage for ships that were abbandoned,
> found and returned to them ie the Rubicon, and if so at what percentage?
> 

	I found something in the Double Adv. 1 "Annic Nova"  reguarding salvage
of the Annic Nova. It says," This artifact (ship) is allowed in Imperial
commerce under the salvage laws provided the ship is registered with the
Imperial authorities (typical registration fee: Cr 100,00)."
	So for any ship you may only have to reregister the ship and it yours.
I do not know what the Ruicon is or who it belongs to, but if it was an
Imperial ship, I am sure they would want it back but would have to pay
you something. 
	I am sure under salvage laws, if you find it floating around it's
yours. The hard part, would be proving you were not the ones who caused
it to be floating around in the first place.

	Brian

===========================================================

"What's he paying you boys? I'll double it and we'll beat
 the shit out of him."
				Steve Martin in 
				"Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid"
===========================================================


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:19:57 -0500
Subject: Chris Cox?

***ATTENTION***ATTENTION***

Chris Cox, if youare still on this list and you read this, please eMail me at:

tiger@datasync.com

Thank you, Announcement over. :)


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 25 Sep 1996 11:12:56 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Shadows Plans Online (finally)

>That just goes to show you how far the universe of role-playing has come
>since the late 70's. And aren't we glad.
>
>Marc Miller

Exactly.  And a good reason to avoid just reissuing the old material.  Now,
if IG was to reissue _updated_ versions of the original adventures, I'd
probably bite, even though I already own them all.  That said, here's what
I'd expect in an updated CT adventure:

1) Rules compatible with T4 (obviously).  Lots of new equipment changes the
play balance of some adventures, while the task system can streamline play. 
(For example, densitometers made a hash of Twilight's Peak, because the
players could explore the complex first.  Well, I actually ruled that the
Ancient machinery botched their readings, so they had to go in person,
but...)

2) More artwork, especially scenes that can be shown the players.

3) Italicised descriptive passages that the referee can read to set mood.

4) Play aids in ready-to-use/photocopy format.  Maps, plans, and so on
shouldn't be left to the referee in a full adventure.  If combat is expected,
give serious thought to a fold-out/pull-out set of plans in 25mm scale (or
15mm, if that will be IG's standard, although I personally prefer 25mm).  A
nice ship counter for a new starship, maybe a front/back view of a
significant NPC (suitable for using as a 'miniature figure'), and so on.



That said, here's a list of my favourite adventures:

1) Shadows: perfect for a one-shot convention-style adventure.

2) Murder on Arcturus Station: Nice little mystery. Could have used some
enhancement (see above) but useful for making players think.

3) Bellerophon: Lovely diplomatic adventure.  Could be nicely updated to
Milieu 0 - players are Imperial diplomats trying to get voluntary allegiance
from sea nomads.


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 25 Sep 1996 11:22:42 GMT
Subject: Comments on Deck Plans

OK, I've now got a few deck plans available on the Web:

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/gamingClub.html

and follow the links.  Check out both the Traveller plans (Shadows) and the
Space 1889 plans (especially Harbringer).


Now, I'd like some feedback.  What do people think of them?  Some specific
questions:

1) Do you like my system of just indicating hex/square centres?  Would you
rather have the hex/square outlined?  What about no markings at all?

2) Do you like the colour, or is it an unnecessary extra?

3) Do you like having the furnishings/machinery depicted?

4) How much would you pay for colour hardcopy on paper?  Cardstock? Plastic
laminated?

5) Would you be interested in cardstock 'miniatures'?  (I'll be adding some
examples shortly.)

6) Any other comments?

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:45:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: High Tech Warfare

 >> Yes, and they were more successful with it than Iraq was.  They also had
 >> insane numbers of highly obsolete Soviet SA/8 (I think it was)
 >> heat-seaking SAMs, which had to get within about 500 yards of a plane to
 >> get a decent tracking lock.  So they'd launch dozens of them, more or
 >
 > Youch! Who needs AEGIS when you have Pack-o-SAM(tm) ;) I thought the SA-9 
 > was the cheapo 
 > heat-seeker . . . .

   The SA-7A and SA-7B are the older man-portable SAMs. 

   The 7B is "improved", while the 7A is the version that was popular in
Vietnam.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:34:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Newbie question

On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, Michael Koehne wrote:

> 	Current (1996) practice is that Loyds will pay 10% of
> 	ship and cargo. A friend of mine got rich this way.
> 
> 	I dont think that this whould change in the Imperium.

Well, my Imperium isn't quite so nice. :)

If the ship belonged to the Imperial government in the first place, they 
aren't going to pay a finder's fee.

But, as I said in my post, a bank or other institutation or individual 
would treat it according to their own policies, personality, etc.  In 
other words, the Imperium has one policy, and each other entity will have 
its own policy.

That's just the way I play it, of course. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:05:34 -0600
Subject: Re: Comments on Deck Plans

At 11:22 am 9/25/96 GMT, you wrote:
>OK, I've now got a few deck plans available on the Web:
>
>http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/gamingClub.html
>
>and follow the links.  Check out both the Traveller plans (Shadows) and the
>Space 1889 plans (especially Harbringer).
>
>
>Now, I'd like some feedback.  What do people think of them?  Some specific
>questions:
>
>1) Do you like my system of just indicating hex/square centres?  Would you
>rather have the hex/square outlined?  What about no markings at all?

        Instead of using an "*" to mark the center, how about using a "+" to
mark the corners. Example:

          this                becomes this        instead of this
   +-----+-----+-----+   +     +     +     +
   |     |     |     |   
   |     |     |     |                            *     *     *
   |     |     |     |   
   +-----+-----+-----+   +     +     +     +
   |     |     |     |   
   |     |     |     |                            *     *     *
   |     |     |     |   
   +-----+-----+-----+   +     +     +     +
   |     |     |     |   
   |     |     |     |                            *     *     *
   |     |     |     |   
   +-----+-----+-----+   +     +     +     +


>2) Do you like the colour, or is it an unnecessary extra?

        I like it.

>3) Do you like having the furnishings/machinery depicted?

        Yes. I much prefer a well detailed floorplan to a blank set of black
lines

>4) How much would you pay for colour hardcopy on paper?  Cardstock? Plastic
>laminated?

        Depends on what the subject is. A "One-of" floorplan for a single
adventure, I'd maybe be interested in a color hardcopy, maybe $US0.25 to
$US0.50. If it's a generic, reuseable plan (i.e. starport office, bar, etc.)
or a common ship, I'd be interested in a plastic-laminated version, around $US1

>5) Would you be interested in cardstock 'miniatures'?  (I'll be adding some
>examples shortly.)

        Maybe.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 96 18:03 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446

In-Reply-To: <9609221520.AA07654@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< I'm not sure about other countries...well, really I don't know about
anywhere but here in the south, but anyway, down here in the south, we 
have auto junk yards where cars that have been "totaled" (wrecked beyond
reasonable repair) are taken and you can go there to get the useable 
parts off the car.  That is, a car that got rear ended and the back of 
the car (including the axel) is crunched, is gonna have some good engine 
parts.  I wonder if there is something like this in the Traveller 
Universe where ship owners could go to buy used upgrades for their ship 
at discount prices? >>

Possibly, but there are differences between cars and starships:

- - ships last *much* longer (10x)
- - there are fewer ships
- - ships are *much* more expensive

There will be market for second-hand starship bits, but I don't think 
you'll see many 'starship graveyards'.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 96 18:03 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #449

In-Reply-To: <9609232045.AA10050@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:05:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Vacuum exposure (from: Spacing the OS2 & Linux dudes?) 

I think you die of suffocation first, at least in the simplest case 
of just suddenly having vaccuum instead of air.  With a slow leak, 
you might freeze first, but I doubt it.  Under no circumstances 
would you dramatically explode into bloody shreds.  The coroner 
might find some bleeding at the nose, mouth, or ears, or something 
like that, but that would be the most, from what I've read. >>

If you hold your breath, extremely unpleasant (and possibly explosive) 
things will happen to your lungs.

Lack of oxygen is what'll kill you, and it takes a few minutes.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #452
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Traveller-digest        Wednesday, 25 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 453

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446
         2. BSCS FIXES version 3.0 (LONG)
         3. Computer Models
         4. Re:& sundry
         5. Another patron encounter
         6. How long does it take to vent to vacuum?
         7. Re: Computer Models
         8. Re: Newbie question
         9. Galactic 2.1 - Call for Sectors
        10. ATTN Andy Lilly!
        11. Languages & Scripts
        12. Inspirational reading : SciFi
        13. Re: Gauss
        14. Re: Newbie question
        15. Re: Newbie question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 96 18:03 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446

In-Reply-To: <9609221520.AA07654@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< I'm not sure about other countries...well, really I don't know about
anywhere but here in the south, but anyway, down here in the south, we 
have auto junk yards where cars that have been "totaled" (wrecked beyond
reasonable repair) are taken and you can go there to get the useable 
parts off the car.  That is, a car that got rear ended and the back of 
the car (including the axel) is crunched, is gonna have some good engine 
parts.  I wonder if there is something like this in the Traveller 
Universe where ship owners could go to buy used upgrades for their ship 
at discount prices? >>

Possibly, but there are differences between cars and starships:

- - ships last *much* longer (10x)
- - there are fewer ships
- - ships are *much* more expensive

There will be market for second-hand starship bits, but I don't think 
you'll see many 'starship graveyards'.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 13:49:06 -0400
Subject: BSCS FIXES version 3.0 (LONG)

        Well, I redid the sensors rules to make them make sense, and
included some explanations. One question I have; would it be helpful if I
included ALL the rules for BSCS, not just the ones I'm changing? Up to now,
I've just been treating this as "errata".

- -------------------------cut
here----------------------------------------------------
"FIXES" TO THE BASIC SHIP COMBAT SYSTEM Ver 3.0  By Allen Shock

	I've been doing a little work here and there on the Basic Ship Combat
System in the T4 rulebook. It had the right idea, but I felt it was not as
well integrated with the T4 rules as it could've been.  I  want a system
that fits well with the RPG and uses the characters skills. So, here are the
fixes I've come up with. 

STEP ONE: TASK FORCE ASSEMBLY
        No changes here.

STEP TWO: INITIATIVE
        Each side rolls an Average (2D) task against Tactics (those who
don't have Tactics use it as a 0 level skill) with the following Die Roll
Modifiers:
        +1 for each level of Leadership the task force Commander possesses
        -1 for each ship after the first in the Task Force.
The side that succeeds by the most has the Initiative for that turn.

STEP THREE: RANGE STEP
        Winner of the initiative can increase or decrease the range by one band.
Task forces cannot go beyond very long range unless they break off.

STEP FOUR: BREAK-OFF
        There are two ways a ship can break-off; by jumping out, and by
accelerating away.
        JUMPING OUT: Going to jump during a battle requires an Difficult
task roll by both the Astrogator and the Engineer. If successful, the ship
jumps out in the Pursuit phase in (Jump distance x 2 / Power Plant Rating)
turns. (Thanks to Wildstar for that idea!) If the result is less than 1, the
ship can jump out that turn.
        ACCELERATION: If a ship is at Very Long range from it's closest
pursuer, it can leave the battle in the Pursuit phase.

STEP FIVE: SENSOR STEP
        Sensor rolls are made using the Sensors skill and INT of the sensors
operator, with modifications for range and size. You must declare whether
you are using Active or Passive Sensors.

	SENSOR RATING           SENSOR RANGE
	0-5                     Very Short
	6-10                    Short
	11-20                   Medium
	21-40                   Long
	41-80                   Very Long

Sensors can detect ships out to their range class at no penalty. For every
class beyond that, there is a +1DM. Sensors cannot detect any object farther
than 3 range classes beyond their own. (Thus, Very Short sensors cannot
detect objects at Very Long range.)
        If a target is using Active Sensors, it is automatically detected.
        Once the target is detected, it must be LOCKED to be fired on. This
is +1
Difficulty Level easier than the detection task, and is not automatic even
if the target is Active. If attempting a target lock with Active sensors,
you get +1 Difficulty level (i.e. it gets easier, going from say Difficult
to Average.)

        RANGE TABLE     DISTANCE                       RATING
        Very Short      5 hexes (150,000 km or less)   Average (2D)
        Short           10 hexes (300,000 km)          Difficult (2.5D)
        Medium          20 hexes (600,000 km)          Formidable (3D)
        Long            40 hexes (1,200,000 km)        Staggering (3.5D)
        Very Long       80 hexes (2,400,000 km)        Impossible (4D)

The mention of "hexes" is for conversion from other TRAVELLER combat
systems, and shows how big the "range bands" are. This system does not use a
map, although one could be used to show relative positioning if the players
find this helpful.

	SIZE MODIFIERS

	HULL(d tons)    SIZE    MODIFIERS
	<1              5       -4
	1+              6       -3
	10+             7       -2
	100+            8       -1
	1000+           9        0
	10,000+        10       +1
	100,000+       11       +2
	1,000,000      12       +3



STEP 6: DECLARE FIRE
        Both sides declare what weapons they intend to fire, with the side
that lost the initiative declaring first. They then declare what defenses
they are employing.
Lasers not declared as firing offensively may be used to shoot incoming missles.

STEP 7: WEAPON FIRE
        All weapons fire is simultaneous, so if a weapon is destroyed, the
damage takes effect the NEXT turn, not the current one. Fire is conducted
using the Gunnery
ability of the characters manning the weapons, using the Range tables and
Size modifiers listed above. The Fire Control rating of the ship is added to
the Target Number. Spectacular successes do double damage to armor and
result in TWO rolls on the Surface Damage table if the ship has armor, or
two hits on Structure and two rolls on the Internal Explosions table if it
does not. Hits that breach the armor get only one roll on the Internal
Explosions table. Spectacular failures have no effect.
	Missles are handled differently than other weapons in that they don't hit
automatically, but must travel to their target. A missle "moves" one range
band per turn (if launched at Long range, it will be at Medium on the second
turn, etc.) and detonates when it enters the targets Range band. It could be
destroyed at any point along the way by OFFENSIVE laser fire, DEFENSIVE fire
can only occur when the missle is in the same range band as the target and
before it detonates.

STEP 8: LAUNCH AND RECOVER VESSELS
        As per the rulebook

STEP 9: BREAKTHROUGH
        As per the rulebook

STEP 10 : PURSUIT
        Ships beginning the turn at Very Long range from their closest enemy
and who are still at that range can now leave the battle.

        Go back to step 2 and repeat until the battle is over.

        The major alteration, besides using the task system a little more,
is in the Initiative step. Under the published system, the side that got
initiative had it for the whole fight. This way, adversaries with equal
ability will trade off now and then while those with clear superiority will
generally do better. Also, it seemed to make more sense to use Tactics than
leadership, but leadership ability is important, thus it is used as a modifier.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---------
If FREELANCE TRAVELLER wishes to publish this, that's fine by me. I don't
have their web page address, so if someone could forward this to them, I'd
appreciate it.

Allen




------------------------------

From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:42:13 -0700
Subject: Computer Models

</lurk>

Hi all.  I have a question about computer model numbers, the answer to
which I find inobvious from the MT/T4 rules.

With regards to computers, what the heck is a /bis model.  I'm familiar
with the term used in conjunction with modems (from the French word
meaning 'like', indicating that a modem is compatible with a standard,
i.e. v.32bis).

Thanks!

Jeffrey

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 13:47:15 -0400
Subject: Re:& sundry

>> They'll arrive eventually. But if this is what we can expect from
>> IG's printer, I have some serious advice;
>> Get a new printer!

>This sort of thing can happen with _any_ printer...since there are a
>finite number of printers in any given area (a finite number capable
>of doing 4c process, anyway), if you keep moving on after each
>screw-up, you eventually run out of printers.

Point taken. I guess the long wait is just getting to me. :)

>> Do you think the continual "GDW is going under" talk
>> might have contributed to it's actual demise?
>
>In a word: yes.

THIS is why I said we ought to step on this Usenet rumor-mongering. Say Joe
Gamer goes into his favorite game store and says "Gee, I heard on the net
that Imperium Games had already gone under!" Joe Game Store owner relays
this information to Joe Distributor, who decides not to carry IG's stuff
anymore. He passes this stuff along to his distributor buddies, who do
likewise...get the picture?
        Anybody ever hear of an old radio children's show personality called
"Uncle Don"? (his real name escapes me). According to Kermit Schaeffer's
Bloopers and other sources, he was overheard saying "That oughtta hold the
little bastards" when he thought he was off the air. Before too long, he'd
been blackballed and never worked in radio again (AFAIK). Except that he
never SAID it! The "blooper" on the Kermit Schaeffer album was a RECREATION
based on the rumor. The man's career was trashed by someone's rumormongering.
        I'm not trying to be alarmist, I just know how nasty rumors can get. 
        I saw Marc Miller's response to the bozo on USENET (and Steve Miller
of TSR toasted him, too.) Hopefully this will take care of that guy.
                                        Allen


------------------------------

From: brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 17:07:40 +0000
Subject: Another patron encounter

Here's another patron encounter:

Starport Official
Suitable for any size group of characters
Required skills: Demolitions or Engineering/Electronics
Required equipment: Any spacecraft

Players information:
While on a world with a class D spaceport, the 
characters are offered a job by the starport authorities. An old 
mothballed spacestation's orbit is beginning to decay, and there is 
considerable danger that the wreckage could hit a populated area when 
it finally comes down. The starport authorities offer the characters 
Cr50,000 to dispose of the station. They supply an orbital 
demolitions kit composed of a number of demolitions charges, and a 
large foam shield, which is deployed over the station before 
demolition to capture any debris which is thrown upwards. The shield 
and the small fragments should then burn up in the atmosphere. 

Referee's information:
1. The situation is as presented above.
2. When entering the station to place the demolitions charges the 
players discover that the station was being used by a group of 
smugglers as a drop off point for narcotics. The smugglers on the 
planet will be notified by proximity sensors when any ship 
approaches the station, and will send three fighters to investigate, 
which will arrive within ten minutes.
3. As in 2. but there are smugglers actually on the space station 
when the players arrive. They will try to ambush the players and 
drive them off. 
4. The space station which the players approach looks nothing like 
the one in the technical information they have been given. A number 
of large hydroponics gardens fan out from a enlarged residential 
area. The station has been taken over by a community of squatters. Of 
course, the station's orbit is still decaying, and the players will 
have to either persuade the station community to organise an 
evacuation, or try to tow the station into a stable orbit (dangerous 
as the structural strength of the station may have been compromised 
by the settler's additions)
5. When opened up, the station is found to contain hundreds of large 
purple drums with hazard markings on them. The authorities have no 
idea how they got there. They can eventually be traced to a small
company/government on the planet.  The players will need to find out 
if they have to be removed before the destruction of the station 
(nerve gas which would dissapate in the upper atmosphere is not a 
problem, radioactive waste might be). If any players try opening a 
container to find out what is inside, then perhaps a biological agent 
might be released, which would make tracking down the people who 
dumped the barrels in the station even more time sensitive.
6. Instead of demolishing the station, the authorities request that 
the characters tow it into a higher graveyard orbit, among several 
dozen other rotting hulks of stations and SDBs. In reality, the 
starport officials are part of a group of privateers, who will try to 
capture the players' ship, ambushing them in the graveyard.

Now that I've finally got T4, I'm working on some slightly longer 
adventures, which should appear in a week or so.

- --
Brendan

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:52:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: How long does it take to vent to vacuum?

Hi all.  

Okay, okay, so I goofed: The air would leave slower as the pressure
dropped.  I'm just a lowly arts major!  I still think my method probably
gives a good quick ballpark figure.  Could some engineering type help us
out with the skinny here?  C'mon Leonard, I know you're out there and
dying to write an essay on this complete with incomprehensible fluid
dynamics formulas :-) .

Toodaloo,
Charles.


<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html 	 		 <0>


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:06:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Computer Models

On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, Jeff Cornish wrote:

> </lurk>
> 
> Hi all.  I have a question about computer model numbers, the answer to
> which I find inobvious from the MT/T4 rules.
> 
> With regards to computers, what the heck is a /bis model.  I'm familiar
> with the term used in conjunction with modems (from the French word
> meaning 'like', indicating that a modem is compatible with a standard,
> i.e. v.32bis).


The /bis models date back to CT and it stands for 'built in storage'. 
Essentially these models had only one memory space, no separate storage 
space.  I won't go on about how brain dead Traveller computers are in 
general...this laptop I am on right now has more power than a model 2/bis ;)

> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Jeffrey
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 12:32:29 -0700
Subject: Re: Newbie question

At 11:34 AM 9/25/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, Michael Koehne wrote:
>
>> 	Current (1996) practice is that Loyds will pay 10% of
>> 	ship and cargo. A friend of mine got rich this way.
>> 
>> 	I dont think that this whould change in the Imperium.
>
>Well, my Imperium isn't quite so nice. :)
>
>If the ship belonged to the Imperial government in the first place, they 
>aren't going to pay a finder's fee.

Hmmm... I've always had the Imperial government pay a salvage fee of 10% of
the ship's worth.  This allows them to recover lost ships and serves as an
impetus for entrepreneurial types to recover lost and damaged ships at
little or no cost to the Imperium.  In my game Imperial officers are hardly
ever incompetent and investigate thoroughly salvage ships.  Woe be the
person who attempts to sell a ship they had pirated as salvage or who
attempts to use an Imperial Ship on a finders keepers basis.

Matthew Mactyre
mmactyre@concentric.net
http://www.cris.com/~mmactyre/
PGP public key available on request


------------------------------

From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 13:10:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Galactic 2.1 - Call for Sectors

Howdy-do and other nonsensical civilities,

I've been yapping with Marc Miller these past few days about whether
or not he'd grant permission for traveller fans to incorporate official
sectors into Galactic or other sector-viewing freeware. I let him know
that four people on the TML were already hard at work on a few sectors:

Dakin Burdick (burdickd@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu): Magyar Sector
Stu Dollar (sdollar@goodnet.com): Dk. Nebula, Diaspora, Dagudashaag
J.D. Burdick (JD.Burdick@t-online.de): Fornast
Michel Boucher (alsandor@netcom.ca): Beyond, Vanguard Reaches

El Marc did spaketh:
"OK. You have permission to include that subsector data with the
appropriate disclaimers and acknowledgements."

I went on to ask:
Great. Will you extend this to "official" sector data in general,
so I don't need to ask your permission every time somebody wants to
type in another Traveller sector?

So far, he hasn't responded, but I'm encouraged enough by his initial
email to put out this "Call for Sectors" as it were. I'm guessing that
there are a lot of you out there who have been working on various
sectors and world write-ups, either for the official setting or for
a completely homebrew galaxy. If _you_ are such a person, and you'd
like your work to appear in the next release of Galactic, then please
send me email letting me know.

I've currently got a bit of work to do on the program, so even if
you're only halfway done, there's still time to get your work in.
But please contact me so that I can put you on the list of who's
doing what, just so that two people don't end up sending me different
versions of the same sector for the same era.

Later...   jimv@empirenet.com

PS: For those who haven't yet seen Galactic, it can be downloaded
from my homepage... http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv

PPS: I'm also working on an archive concerning Traveller and the
copyright issues. So far, the archive is pretty light on the legal-speak.
It's more a collection of articles dealing w/ GDW's & IG's policy, along
with some speculation from TMLers and some additional files showing
major transition points in the lives of the two companies as pertains
to the Traveller RPG. I'll try to get this initial version of the archive
finalized enough to distribute once I hear back from Marc about my
question regarding the use of official sector data in sector-mapping
freeware. If anyone wants a copy of the archive, I can send you a
uuencoded/pkziped version along w/ instructions on how to deal with it
if you need any help.


------------------------------

From: Mark Fletcher <mf1@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 21:08:27 +0100 (BST)
Subject: ATTN Andy Lilly!

Andy,

Could you get in touch with me! I've lost your E-mail address in a clean
up in my account lately, and this list is the only way to get in touch
with you. My apologies to the other members on this list for any
inconvenience.

Your Sincerely,

Mark Fletcher


------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 16:14:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Languages & Scripts

I just found a site with a lot of very cool info
on different languages, including script examples...
could make good "atmosphere".

http://www.willamette.edu/~tjones/Language-Page.html

and 

http://idris.com/scripts/Scripts.html

All the scripts in the world! See if your players can tell
the difference between Viliani and Inuktitut!

Ethan\

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:17:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Inspirational reading : SciFi

I'm taking the liberty of moving this disscussion to the Traveller list
since everyone has an opinion on this.

On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Derek Wildstar wrote:

> It's right up there on my short list of the best SF ever written.
> 
> 
> Here's a few items from the head of the list:
> 
> E. E. "Doc" Smith: "Skylark" series (_Skylark of Space_),
>                    "Lensman" Series (_Triplanetary)
> George O. Smith: _Venus Equilateral_
> James H. Schmitz: _The Witches of Karres_
>                   _The Very Best of James H, Schmitz_
> Robert A. Heinlien: The Future Histories (_The Past Through Tomorrow_)
>                     Juveniles (_Starship Troopers_, _Rocketship Galileo_)
> Gordon R. "Gordy" Dickson: The Childe Cycle (_Dorsai!_, _Tactics of Mistake_)
> Isaac Asimov: The Foudation Trilogy (_Foundation_) ... First 3 books only!
> Anderson and Dickson: _Earthman's Burden_
> 
> 
> What does your list look like?
> 

Well, "Best SF ever written" is kind of high-falutin'.  How about
"Favorite" or "Most Travelleresque" SF ever written?

Lets try not to repeat anything shall we?

Heinlien, Robert A. "Methuselah's Children", "The Menace From Earth",
"Moon is a Harsh Mistress" (Rock Dropping!), "Green Hills of Earth",
"Spaceman Jones", etc.

Zelazny, Roger  "Flare" (Co-authored with ??? - can't remember), "Coils"

Weber, David  "Insurrection" (one of two, can't remember the other) and
the Honor Harrington series.

Cherryh, C.J.  "Cyteen" Parts I-III, "Downbelow Station", "Heavy Time"

Asimov, Issac  Robot Series ("I, Robot"), Many Others

Drake, David  "Hammers Slammers" and related materials (flame bait:
he's never written anything as good as the Hammer's Slammers series
IMNSHO)

Gibson, William  "Neuromancer", "Mona Lisa Overdrive", et al (he's got a
new one out btw)

Frank, Herbert  "Dune" (I wasn't as impressed with the others in the Dune
series)

McCafferty, Anne  "Rowan", "Damia", "Damia's Children", "The Crystal
Singer" (these are *not* dragon books btw)  

Scott, Melissa  "Mighty Good Road"

Well, What else?

Pete


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:52:31 PST
Subject: Re: Gauss

In mail you write:

> I think recent reserch has shown it is not viable to accelerate a projectile
> using magnetic liniar acceleration beyond about 3000 meters a second i could
> be wrong on this figure but it boils down to the fact that at least in an
> atmosphere  the projectile would not be effecitve

I'm sure the folks working on various "rail gun" designs would be
surprised to hear this. 

There are two types of "electromagnetic guns".

First is the "coil gun" which is essenmtially a linear accelerator or
linear electric motor. it has limits due to requiring a magnetic
projecctile, and switching current between sections of the coil in
synch with the projectile. Even so, I think a searcch of the literature
will show velocities a lot higher than 3000 m/s.

Second is the rail gun, which is much simpler. It uses a steady
magnetic field, and a pair of conductive "rails". The projectile
completes the conductive path between the rails and the current flow
reacts with the magnetic field to push the projectile down the rails at
a constant, *high* acceleration. Railguns are producing velocities more
like 6,000-10,000 m/s. 

The problem is that high velocity prohectiles will slow down rapidly in
air. The lighter the projectile the faster the speed drops. On the
other hand, at these speeds they've gone quite a ways before the speed
drops. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 12:19:42 PST
Subject: Re: Newbie question

In mail you write:

> IMO, it would be a judgement call by the referee as to what would be done 
> about such ships.  Ships are expensive - so truly abandoned ships that 
> are in working order are going to be awful rare.  Plus, if someone still 
> retains legal ownership of the ship, that will be a factor.
>
> If a ship is found which is Imperial property, /my/ Imperium wouldn't pay 
> a single credit to the person returning it beyond perhaps the expenses 
> associated with doing so.  The local branch of the Imperial government 
> would probably do some intense questioning and investigation to determine 
> if the people who "found" the ship might have been the cause of its being 
> "lost" in the first place.
>
> Those who find ships which belong to others (megacorps, individuals, 
> whatever) may be greeted with reward money, mistrust, or anything else, 
> depending on the personality of the owner.
>
> Found ships may be turned in for scrap and/or resold and/or used by the 
> finder(s), but as with automobiles, they'd better be careful not to get 
> caught doing these things to a ship they don't own.  However, there are 
> undoubtedly underground organizations that would "file off the serial 
> numbers" (so to speak) for a fee...with varying results depending on a 
> variety of factors (skill of the individual(s) performing this service, 
> for example).

There's a *vast* body of "admiralty law" that deals with this sort of
thing. If you come across a ship on the high seas, with no crew aboard,
and you board it and bring it to port, if the original owners want it,
they have to pay you salvage fees that are set by law unless you you
are willing to accept something less. And as I recall, the fees start
at 10% of the value and go up. Heck, you can get a major fee just for
towing a disabled vessel.

This body of law will *not* get left behind when we go into space. And
it fits spacecraft a lot better than the rules for aircraft do.

Besides the mandated fees for salvaging an "abandoned" or "disabled"
vessel, there are also rules about how long you retain the claim to
things like sunken ships. These would likely get extended to "lost"
ships. And As I recall it's something like 20 or 30 years. After that,
if you locate it, the original owners can go piss up a rope. 

ps. if you want to look this up, it will not be under the laws of your
country, it's one of the many forms of international law. Ask the
librarians about "Admiralty law" and "salvage".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:37:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Newbie question

On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, Matthew Mactyre wrote:

> Hmmm... I've always had the Imperial government pay a salvage fee of 10% of
> the ship's worth.  This allows them to recover lost ships and serves as an
> impetus for entrepreneurial types to recover lost and damaged ships at
> little or no cost to the Imperium.  In my game Imperial officers are hardly
> ever incompetent and investigate thoroughly salvage ships.  Woe be the
> person who attempts to sell a ship they had pirated as salvage or who
> attempts to use an Imperial Ship on a finders keepers basis.

Now I see what the problem is: your Imperium is logical. :)

Seriously, what you're doing here makes a lot of sense, and it works 
IRL.  The one (and only one) time this came up in my game, I played it as 
I described it.  'course, since my Imperium is a vast beauracracy (in the 
1100's, that is), something entirely different might happen the next time 
a similar circumstance occurs - given that the PC's would be dealing with 
different beaurocrats in a different jurisdiction. :)

Your method, as I said, works well, and is a better rule-of-thumb for the 
referees. 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #453
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Traveller-digest        Wednesday, 25 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 454

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Salvaged Imperium Vessels (Rubicon) (was: Re: Newbie question)
         2. Recurring Thread Writeups
         3. Re:& sundry
         4. Re: Computer Models
         5. VISIO for deckplans.
         6. Re: Newbie Question
         7. Nice PC's, HMS Sheffield, Imperial Credit Card
         8. Re: Computer Models
         9. Re: Newbie question
        10. Re: Computer Models
        11. More Computers (was Re: Computer Models)
        12. Re: VISIO for deckplans.
        13. Re: Newbie question
        14. Usenet Stupidity
        15. Re: Usenet Stupidity
        16. Re: Hand-Made Crunch Guns
        17. Re: Gauss Pistols
        18. Re: Usenet Stupidity

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Douglas McCorison <douglas@camax.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:13:19 -0700
Subject: Salvaged Imperium Vessels (Rubicon) (was: Re: Newbie question)

Actually I have an interesting situation for my players.  They picked up
the Rubicon on their sensors on their way out of system and stopped their
FreeTrader to check out the problem.  (They were umm, going slow, due to 
some other issues [raw crew]).  Well, they managed to get started
on tracing the problem when the first fighter showed up.  After a short 
battle (where they used the ship's boat to take out the fighter) they were 
left with three ships: their FreeTrader, the Rubicon, and the ship's boat.
 
As any good merchant would, they didn't want to abandon the ship's boat 
(Hey that's worth 15MCr at the dock!)   However, jump was a LOT closer 
than planet, especially at 1G.  So they decided to jump out for the nearest
Imperial Base.  The problem was crew.  They had four... and three ships.
So they checked with a couple of their passengers (Naval Types), and 
the NTs thought they could help prize crew the ship to the base...  Well,
after dealing with these snotty types through two jumps (and a pirate ambush,
they got a corsair out before the players got out of system and the players 
weren't exactly quiet about what they were doing), it turns out the senior 
one is the new CO of the base... So the players are trying to establish their 
claim on the ship BEFORE the new CO takes over, because they're afraid 
he'll just brush them off.  Are we having fun yet?  Any evil ideas?
 
Douglas

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 96 17:20:00 -0500
Subject: Recurring Thread Writeups

  If I could save time in a bottle, the first thing that I'd
  like to do...

  ... is go scrounging through the archives and pull out all the
  threads on Rock-Dropping and on The Vacuum-Breathers Club and
  write some scholarly articles about dealing with this in
  Traveller.  A decent second, again, assuming bottled time,
  would be to do the research from other sources and write the
  same articles.

  Regrettably, time doesn't come prepackaged (although thyme,
  something different, does) for later use, and my employer
  doesn't allow me to have a life lately.

  Therefore, I'm sending out a plea for _someone_ on this list
  to write these articles and send them to Freelance Traveller.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Ever notice the best taglines are someone else's?

------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 25 Sep 96 17:34:21 EDT
Subject: Re:& sundry

- --- Allen wrote:
    I saw Marc Miller's response to the bozo on USENET (and Steve Miller
of TSR toasted him, too.) Hopefully this will take care of that guy.
- --- end of quoted material ---
Only in that he now feels liek he's getting attention. We just had an idjit on
another list go ballistic over a period of weeks, sucking up the attention as
he spread vile rumour and improper innuendo about almost everyone he could
'whois'. The psychosis feeds itself, with a little help from people like us,
unfortuneately.

- -j

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 17:59:34 +0000
Subject: Re: Computer Models

Tom Ellis wrote:
> The /bis models date back to CT and it stands for 'built in storage'.
> Essentially these models had only one memory space, no separate storage
> space.  I won't go on about how brain dead Traveller computers are in
> general...this laptop I am on right now has more power than a model 2/bis ;)

Yeah, but can your laptop calculate jump vectors, target MFDs and maneuver a one 
kiloton starship at the same time?

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 18:35:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: VISIO for deckplans.

Hi all.

I just got a copy of VISIO.  It looks pretty neat.  I was wondering: has
anyone out there developed any templates or master shapes for doing
deckplans with it?  If so, I would really like to take a look at them.

Thanks,
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller       <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca),                 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.                 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.          <0>
<0>     http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/cvl/home.html             <0>


------------------------------

From: "Nick Meredith" <nickm@discover.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 23:56:00 +0001
Subject: Re: Newbie Question

On: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 Michael Koehne wrote:
>Moin Joe Walsh,
>
>> IMO, it would be a judgement call by the referee as to what would be
>> done about such ships.  Ships are expensive - so truly abandoned
>> ships that are in working order are going to be awful rare.  Plus,
>> if someone still retains legal ownership of the ship, that will be a
>> factor.
>> If a ship is found which is Imperial property, /my/ Imperium
>> wouldn't pay a single credit to the person returning it beyond
>> perhaps the expenses associated with doing so. 
>
> Current (1996) practice is that Loyds will pay 10% of
> ship and cargo. A friend of mine got rich this way.
>
> I dont think that this whould change in the Imperium.
>
>> The local branch of the Imperial government 
>> would probably do some intense questioning and investigation to
>> determine if the people who "found" the ship might have been the
>> cause of its being "lost" in the first place.
>
> Of course there will be investigations, Loyds is a bank
> and have you ever seen a bank, giving money without asking
> questions ;-)

Whilst I don't disagree with what Michael is saying, I feel that a 
couple of small corrections are in order.

The insurance /salvage market which he refers to is Lloyds not Loyds. 
It was named after a coffee house where maritime trade was carried 
out in London.

It is not a bank - it has no connection with the British bank Lloyds. 
What it actually is is a complex group of syndicates of (usually) 
wealthy people who underwrite insurance companies. Many have lost a 
lot of money there in recent years  - these are the people who underwrite 
the risks for the insurance companies. The terms Lloyds operates under
mean that these risks are technically unlimited - an underwriters house 
and all other property is on the line if their syndicate backs too many bad 
risks.(Mind you before we get too sympathetic to these people they can 
also make a lot of money when disasters don't happen).
======================================================================
Cheers
Nick Meredith - nickm@discover.co.uk - Coventry, UK

------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:18:32 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Nice PC's, HMS Sheffield, Imperial Credit Card

Dear Folks -

1.   LAWFUL, TRUSTWORTHY PC'S

Boyd said:
> Alexander Hood says so, then it is so."   -or-   "I'll lend you my
air/raft if 
>Captain Hood drives it, I know that he can be trusted..."

In the absence of a paladin, I used to carry all the party's money, for the
same reason.

"Trust me... I'm a cleric".

2.   HMA SHEFFIELD

Larry Hadley said:
>Not true. In fact, the Sheffield did not detect the Exocet at all until
>just before impact. It isn't really known for sure _why_ they didn't

One of the ship losses went like this: the targeted ship did not have the
close-in weapons system fitted, but another did. This second ship was
performing overwatch for the squadron. It detected the missile and locked
on, but then its line-of-sight was blocked as the targetted ship moved into
the way. Seconds later, the targetted ship was hit by the incoming missile.

Was this the Sheffield incident, or one of the other ships?

Two lessons from the war (among others!) were (1) ensure that each ship has
its own defences; and (2) don't build superstructures from aluminum alloys -
the metal _burns_.

3.   NICE PC's

Glenn Grant said:
>chest. Guns kill, and they don't discriminate. This is realistic. Unlike,
>say, the time in my AD&D campaign when a theif failed a climbing roll and
>fell 120" down a well, into 10" of water, taking 12 dice damage...and
>*survived*. Ludicrous.

Hmm. I still think that the PC's are meant to be "heroes". I don't want to
set them up for a "Die Hard" scenario and have it turn out as "Die Quickly".
What's the point? I have seen scenarios where a (badly wounded) high-level
AD&D fighter made the decision to jump from a 200-ft cliff rather than face
the 20 stone giants coming for him - he survived, but just barely. No, I
*don't* want the same thing happening in Trav, I want it to be more
realistic - but it is still a *game*, and people are there to have *fun*!
The system needs to be "realistically playable", if you see what I mean.

Not all of our games are "tongue-in cheek", but:

...the funniest thing that happened in our Trav game was when the PC's had
just rescued Sergei Oberlindes from Ruie ("Rescue on Ruie"). They were
rewarded with a Subsidised Merchant, and stayed at Ruie (well, in orbit
above Ruie) to do some trading. Now, one of the PC's was a Pirate character.
Being a good pirate, he decided to rip off the ship and space the others. To
this end, he hired a number of theatre groups to create fake cabins (like
partitioned crates), which he placed inside the _cargo hold_ before the
group arrived back. When the PC's arrived, he went on ahead to "ready the
ship for departure". In reality, he climbed up to another deck. While the
PC's were admiring the new "rooms", the pirate activated a program that
switched off grav in the hold, opened the rear doors, and switched grav on
again - but with "down" pointing out of the doors. The entire theatre set -
with the PC's inside - gently fell out the back of the merchant!

Fortunately, the PC's were still wearing their vacc suits/cbt armour/battldress.

The pirate was laughing so much he nearly missed the explosion aboard his
ship! He forgot that one of the other PC's, a paranoid Demolition-6 ("it is
a beum") noble, mined the engines of *every* ship he ever boarded - "just in
case". While floating around in the "crates" (Zero G Env-0, sorry!) he
managed to find the button for his precious "beums" and set them off!

(Two, totally-independent, absolutely unrelated, simultaneous double-crosses!)

Ah, me. The Droyne didn't worry - they just teleported back to the ship and
booby-trapped the flight console (which later blew up the pirate), nudged
the now-defunct ship into a decaying orbit with the ship's boat, and rescued
the other orbital PC's. The ship went on to crash into the Ruie-equivalent
of Fort Lauderdale (or something equivalent in size, I had just seen _Flight
of the Navigator_), causing Ruie to become very xenophobic and be declared a
Red Zone two full years before the 5FW broke out!!

The two Droyne (Ervmisbe and Realtelsupremo) are still running around
(currently aboard a ghost ship in the Abyss), while the "Beum Squad" are
trying to steal the ultimate bomb from Darrian (they plan on setting off
Sol, preferably while two particular Droyne are sauntering down the steps of
the Ritz dressed in top hat, white tie, gold jockstrap and tails).

...But that's another story.

4.   IMPERIAL CREDIT CARD

Mark Ayers asked about cash and credit cards. This will eventually make its
way to my Library Data pages, but the short answer is that both are
available. Cash is in polymer notes made up of multi-colour plastic threads
melded together thru heat and then sliced into almost unforgeable currency.
Cards are "smart", containg the users DNA and so on for ID. These are
generally accepted, but discrepancies can takes weeks to months to clear up,
depending on the distance to the sector capital (ie. message travel time).
________________________________________________________________________
Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson)                         davidjw@pcug.org.au
http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 19:29:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Computer Models

On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, Cmdr Hold'Em wrote:

> Tom Ellis wrote:
> > The /bis models date back to CT and it stands for 'built in storage'.
> > Essentially these models had only one memory space, no separate storage
> > space.  I won't go on about how brain dead Traveller computers are in
> > general...this laptop I am on right now has more power than a model 2/bis ;)
> 
> Yeah, but can your laptop calculate jump vectors, target MFDs and maneuver a one 
> kiloton starship at the same time?
> 

It probably could to be honest, a P133 has lots of cycles to spare.  Not
knowing the 'realities' of caculating a jump I couldn't say, but as for
coming up with targeting solutions or interfacing with process contol
systems to maneuver a starship, sure could.

And its alot smaller than a multi ton CT computer.

I do NOT want to revive the computer thread, all I will say is that
computers in my Imperium have more power than stock CT models.


_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 16:54:25 -0700
Subject: Re: Newbie question

At 03:37 PM 9/25/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Now I see what the problem is: your Imperium is logical. :)

Logical yes, but not with unlimited resources.  With the Vargr, Zhodani and 
Aslani surrounding the Spinward Marches, the Imperium cannot devote massive 
amounts of men and ships to track down every pirate or criminal.  I've 
always thought of the Spinward Marches as being a frontier with all the 
potential such a vast frontier can bring.

>Seriously, what you're doing here makes a lot of sense, and it works 
>IRL.  The one (and only one) time this came up in my game, I played it as 
>I described it.  'course, since my Imperium is a vast beauracracy (in the 
>1100's, that is), something entirely different might happen the next time 
>a similar circumstance occurs - given that the PC's would be dealing with 
>different beaurocrats in a different jurisdiction. :)

The Imperium in my game also is a ponderous bureaucracy, but there is more 
than a hint of a meritocracy in the Navy and other services.  Just look at 
the character creation process.  However, like all games each circumstance 
must be handled on a case by case basis.  BTW:    What is IRL?

>Your method, as I said, works well, and is a better rule-of-thumb for the 
>referees. 

Thanks, I'm sure that our game mastering styles are based on our own 
experience.  I come from a military background, and spent four years in the 
Navy.  I'm sure this has both colored and skewed my view of the universe.

Matthew Mactyre
mmactyre@concentric.net
http://www.cris.com/~mmactyre/
PGP public key available on request


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 19:56:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Computer Models

By the way, I *was* being sarcastic about a pentium driving a starship all
by itself, just to underscore my contempt for the computers in CT.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 19:59:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: More Computers (was Re: Computer Models)

Now to be more constructive and less sarcastic re:my feelings about
computers in CT, let me talk a bit about computers in my Imperium. Thre
have been numerous discussions of this on the list before, but I can't
help but share my thoughts.

Computers in my Imperium are ubiquitous, powerful devices that range in
size from the near microscopic, special purpose processors, to massive,
parallel systems. Ships computers are actually a myriad or sub processors,
linked together in multi gigabit or terabit networks.  There is generally
alot of redundancy (hence a computer taking a hit in combat and suffering
a reduced rating, not a total failure).

In game terms, the computer rating (1,2, etc.) in my games is used along
with other factors (existing software, operator skill, etc) to calculate
DM's for various ship operations (targeting, navigation,etc). Storage
space is generally not an issue, but there are limits in place to stop
overzealous programmers from trying to code a +10 targeting program into a
model 1 ;)

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 20:01:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: VISIO for deckplans.

Charles asked about VISIO templates, and I would be interested too. I use
VISIO alot for LAN and WAN design, and would love to start using it to
design starships now that I have been playing alot more recently.  I have
some hand drawn plans that I have been putting off introducing to my
player's and its high time I got to work making them presentable.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 19:15:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Newbie question

On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, Matthew Mactyre wrote:

> Logical yes, but not with unlimited resources.  With the Vargr, Zhodani and 
> Aslani surrounding the Spinward Marches, the Imperium cannot devote massive 
> amounts of men and ships to track down every pirate or criminal.  I've 
> always thought of the Spinward Marches as being a frontier with all the 
> potential such a vast frontier can bring.

That's the way I play it as well (Marches having a frontier feel), and it 
is probably the biggest reason we stuck with the Marches after Solomani 
Rim and the other sectors (by DGP and others) came out.  It's exciting in 
a way that appealed to my group.

> The Imperium in my game also is a ponderous bureaucracy, but there is more 
> than a hint of a meritocracy in the Navy and other services.  Just look at 
> the character creation process.  However, like all games each circumstance 
> must be handled on a case by case basis.  BTW:    What is IRL?

I agree with your view of certain organizations being meritocracies in 
the Imperium.  I try not to make the universe a homogeneous place at all 
- - lots of different things makes it more fun. :)

IRL = In Real Life, BTW.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 25 Sep 96 16:55:47 MS
Subject: Usenet Stupidity

Susan (Allen) Shock wrote:
>   I saw Marc Miller's response to the bozo on USENET (and Steve Miller
>of TSR toasted him, too.) Hopefully this will take care of that guy.

Yeah, but then I saw the fool's responses.  To say the least, he certainly does 
not seem to be constrained by logic or reality.  Still, I'm glad Ken and Marc 
sounded off. Since somebody suggested we take turns explaining reality in the 
news group, I'll post a response tonight if the stupidity continues.

One very suspiscious thing:  We had Marc Miller, Steve Miller and Peter Miller 
all posting a defense of Imperium Games.  What is this; are they related?  Are 
the Millers like the Carradine or Baldwin  family of the gaming industry?  I 
sense some deep-rooted plot.  Maybe this is how Marc is going to sign all of 
the harbacks without having his hand permanently cramp up into a ball.

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 20:14:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Usenet Stupidity

On 25 Sep 1996, Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:

> Yeah, but then I saw the fool's responses.  To say the least, he certainly does 
> not seem to be constrained by logic or reality.  Still, I'm glad Ken and Marc 
> sounded off. Since somebody suggested we take turns explaining reality in the 
> news group, I'll post a response tonight if the stupidity continues.

Not knowing about this alternation idea, I posted a review of Traveller 
(at the suggestion of a TMLer who frequents r.g.f.m) and a response to 
one of the more level-headed objectors.  Hope I didn't throw a monkey 
wrench into the plan. :(


> One very suspiscious thing:  We had Marc Miller, Steve Miller and Peter Miller 
> all posting a defense of Imperium Games.  What is this; are they related?  Are 
> the Millers like the Carradine or Baldwin  family of the gaming industry?  I 
> sense some deep-rooted plot.  Maybe this is how Marc is going to sign all of 
> the harbacks without having his hand permanently cramp up into a ball.

I noticed the overabundance of Millers as well.  It is certainly 
suspicious.  I was thinking the latter two might be very-transparent 
pseudonyms.  But your theory sounds more plausible. ;)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: amlindt@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU (Doug Amlin)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 21:29:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Hand-Made Crunch Guns

Concerning .50 cal. weapons:
>Both weapons actually *are* used by military snipers, just not the type
>that usually go for the softer targets like officers :-)  Its ideal purpose
>is taking out sensitive enemy equipment (aircraft, fuel/supply dumps, radar
>installations, communications centers, etc.) at distances up to 2km away.
>
Mr. Berry is correct.  I Saudi Arabia (less than 2 km away from Kuwait,
circa early Feb.1991, I was with a few STA (Surveillance, Target,
Aquisition- i.e. Marine snipers), putting rounds downrange, more often than
not into Iraqi troops and equipment.  The big guns are heavy, but they are
man portable, given a soldier/Marine in excellent physical condition.  Heck,
the Brit. Royal Marines carried some heavy stuff during their march across
the Falklands (I immagine the Paras and other Army personnel carried heavy
stuff, too, but I haven't talked to any of those guys).

------------------------------

From: amlindt@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU (Doug Amlin)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 21:29:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Gauss Pistols

>In <9609221520.AA07654@NS.MPGN.COM>, on 09/22/96 
>   at 11:20 AM, Leonard Erickson said:
>
>
>>As for silent, *any* supersonic projectile will *not* be silent. And
>>the higher the velocity, the less silent.
>
> Quoting The Megatraveller Journal #2 in the Q&A, Joe D. Fugate Sr writes:
>
> "Years ago, I was on an airplane flying to Chicago and I sat next to a
>physicist who worked for the weapons department of the Pentagon. [..]
> I asked him if a gauss weapon could be designed with a bullet that
>travelled faster than the speed of sound, but would not make a sonic crack
>when fired. Without hesitation, he answered, 'Yes, it could be done'.
> He went on to explain how the physics of projectiles is a bit differnt
>than the physics of full-sized aircraft. He said the key would be to
>design  the projectile so it had a smooth flight, with no wobble or
>turbulence. If you could impart the proper spin on the projectile, and
>could get it to supersonic speed while still in the barrel, it could be
>done"
>
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>rogersm@tau.uab.es (Roger Sen Montero)           OS/2.user++;
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Sounds plausible, from a layman's (like me) point of view.  Some food for
thought.

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 22:04:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Usenet Stupidity

Actually, the best theory I have heard is that the "Miller's" are in fact
representatives of a race of humaniti who have served Grandfather and the
Ancients for millenia. Their real motives here on Terra are as yet
unknown...

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #454
**********************************
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Traveller-digest        Thursday, 26 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 455

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Gauss
         2. Re: Newbie question
         3. Re: Usenet Stupidity
         4. Re: Usenet Stupidity
         5. The Myth of Exploding Bodies
         6. Re: Salvage Laws
         7. Re: Usenet Stupidity
         8. Re: Usenet Stupidity
         9. Spreadsheet-release
        10. Re: Galactic 2.1 - Call for Sectors
        11. Re: explosive decompression
        12. The Millers (Was: Re: Usenet Stupidity)
        13. Re: Gauss
        14. Re: Inspirational reading : SciFi
        15. Re: Inspirational reading : SciFi
        16. Re: Shadows Plans Online (finally)
        17. Re: VISIO for deckplans. -Reply
        18. Re: Inspirational reading : SciFi 
        19. Re: Inspirational reading : SciFi
        20. Re: Computer Models 
        21. HARDBACKS SHIPED TODAY
        22. Re: Inspirational reading : SciFi
        23. Re: Computer Models

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 19:12:31 -0700
Subject: Re: Gauss

On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca> said:

>On Tue, 24 Sep 1996 DJessup938@aol.com wrote:
>
>> I think recent reserch has shown it is not viable to accelerate a
>>projectile
>> using magnetic liniar acceleration beyond about 3000 meters a second i
>>could
>> be wrong on this figure but it boils down to the fact that at least in an
>> atmosphere  the projectile would not be effecitve

>   Do you know how fast 3000m/sec is?

About 6,710 mph, or mach 8.8 (yes Virgina, there will be a sonic crack with
this dart..)

>   Modern tank rounds are *devastating* at lower energy levels. _I_ would
>be perfectly happy with an infantry weapon that "only" did 3000m/sec.

As a comparison:

M-16A2 (5.56mm assult rifle, USA)  945m/sec
AKM  (7.62mmS assult rifle, USSR)  715m/sec
FN-FAL (7.62mm assult rifle, Belgium) 823m/sec
UZI (9mmP submachine gun, Israel)  400m/sec

3000m/sec would almost be overkill against personal armor; not to mention
what happens when it hits bone...



+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
| "This ranks very high on the weird meter." |
|                  -Quinn Mallory, "Sliders" |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 16:46:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Newbie question

On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, Michael Koehne wrote:

> 	Current (1996) practice is that Loyds will pay 10% of
> 	ship and cargo. A friend of mine got rich this way.
 Has it occured to anyone else that the person who captured this ship
would just clear all the identifications on it, and sell it to someone ?

 On a related note, how much would used ships go for in the traveller
universe(would you juse use wear values to figure it out)?

bri <bri@teleport.com
Reel Malk, now fortified with vitamin-Y !


------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 19:33:16 -0800
Subject: Re: Usenet Stupidity

>I noticed the overabundance of Millers as well.  It is certainly 
>suspicious.  I was thinking the latter two might be very-transparent 
>pseudonyms.  But your theory sounds more plausible. ;)

Hey!  I protest...I'm a real person...albeit an infreqeuny poster here on
TML, I am real...I really am :) :) :)

Thanks,

Peter
         /----------------------------------------------\
      ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
   ------------------------------------------------------------
  |   Peter John Miller, Oakville, ON, Canada, (905) 845 8707  |
  |-----------------------------|------------------------------|
  | Visit my array of pages at 'Abstract Selection':           |
  |   - Peter:  The Homepage    |  - The Golem Reviews...      | 
  |   - Maquis: Frontlines      |  - SciFi@Area51              | 
  |              *http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/*              |
   ------------------------------------------------------------
\--------------------------------------------------------/    


------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 19:33:11 -0800
Subject: Re: Usenet Stupidity

>One very suspiscious thing:  We had Marc Miller, Steve Miller and Peter Miller 
>all posting a defense of Imperium Games.  What is this; are they related?  Are 
>the Millers like the Carradine or Baldwin  family of the gaming industry?  I 
>sense some deep-rooted plot.  Maybe this is how Marc is going to sign all of 
>the harbacks without having his hand permanently cramp up into a ball.

Here's something to take away your speculation...I'm that Peter Miller!!!  I
read the posts, and, seeing this idiot start to slag off on IG and
Traveller, including specific office personnel, I decided to get involved,
telling him of how great I thought IG has been, and they have!  THey're the
best company I've ever dealt with. 

The only mistake I see, was not announcing their move on their web page,
but, then again, they never promised to.  Any serious Traveller fan should
be subscribed to this list anyway and therefore would have known!

Thanks,

Peter
         /----------------------------------------------\
      ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()
   ------------------------------------------------------------
  |   Peter John Miller, Oakville, ON, Canada, (905) 845 8707  |
  |-----------------------------|------------------------------|
  | Visit my array of pages at 'Abstract Selection':           |
  |   - Peter:  The Homepage    |  - The Golem Reviews...      | 
  |   - Maquis: Frontlines      |  - SciFi@Area51              | 
  |              *http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/*              |
   ------------------------------------------------------------
\--------------------------------------------------------/    


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 25 Sep 1996 22:43:26 GMT
Subject: The Myth of Exploding Bodies

>The pressurised contents of the occupants body would soon cause the body 
>to explode.

Contrary to many "SF" movies, and even more books, bodies don't explode under
a mere 1 atmosphere of pressure differential.  Open your mouth, keep
screaming (to empty your lungs), and don't hold back any farts, and reach an
air supply within 10-40 seconds (depending on your lysical condition).  Oh
yes, and close your eyes to prevent them freezing open.

Someone posted a really nice description based on NASA data last week.  Refer
to that for more details.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 25 Sep 1996 22:47:22 GMT
Subject: Re: Salvage Laws

>	I am sure under salvage laws, if you find it floating around it's
>yours. The hard part, would be proving you were not the ones who caused
>it to be floating around in the first place.

Actually, under existing salvage laws the owners are required to pay you a
settlement (determined by a court - in Britain I believe the Admiralty
Court).  If they don't pay, the vessel is your's.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 22:18:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Usenet Stupidity

On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, someone going by the name of "Peter" Miller wrote:

> >I noticed the overabundance of Millers as well.  It is certainly 
> >suspicious.  I was thinking the latter two might be very-transparent 
> >pseudonyms.  But your theory sounds more plausible. ;)
> 
> Hey!  I protest...I'm a real person...albeit an infreqeuny poster here on
> TML, I am real...I really am :) :) :)

That's what I /thought/ you'd say, Marc.  It's OK, we'll play along with 
your little charade. [nudge, nudge, wink, wink] :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 22:21:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Usenet Stupidity

On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, Peter Miller wrote:

> Here's something to take away your speculation...I'm that Peter Miller!!!  I
> read the posts, and, seeing this idiot start to slag off on IG and
> Traveller, including specific office personnel, I decided to get involved,
> telling him of how great I thought IG has been, and they have!  THey're the
> best company I've ever dealt with. 

"Will the /real/ Peter Miller, please stand up?" :)

Seriously, I'm glad people are taking on that nattering nabob of 
negativism over on r.g.f.m.  But, I worry that the person who said that 
all the attention will just make it worse. :(

> The only mistake I see, was not announcing their move on their web page,
> but, then again, they never promised to.  Any serious Traveller fan should
> be subscribed to this list anyway and therefore would have known!

Darned straight! :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@Communique.se>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 05:27:52 +0200
Subject: Spreadsheet-release

	Hello to you all..
	Just wanted to say that the first excel file has been released and is
available at my web page. You will note it has changed too, much because
people were unable to understand the page structure i guess. 

	Hope it will become easier:)
- ------------------------------------------------------
File : ttneship.xlw
Date : 1996-09-26
Orig.: Mike Basinger (dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu)
Url  : http://www.communique.se/goran

	The file originated from the above person, but was still a long way from
being a complete sheet. I have added some calculations and i suggest you
study the outline before trying to do some creations.
	You only fill in the blue cells with the red outline. Some of them will
need some exact spelling. The green areas in the tables are my own input
suggestions.
	Sensors, weapons, facilities you will have to fill in manually because of
the stupid table configuration...

	And...
		Remember...
			Tell me how you liked the sheet...
				It is always nice to get some positive response...
Coming attractions:
- -------------------

* Extended main world generation a'la World tamers guide
* Extended system generation
* Vehicle construction
* Character generation

	Send me other suggestions!!
		Goran Sjoberg
			Byyyeeee!

------------------------------

From: "athol-brose" <cinnamon@one.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 23:27:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Galactic 2.1 - Call for Sectors

I *am* working on the T4 "core" subsector in Galactic -- it's a bit of a
problem, though, mostly because they left out some information and there's
only one subsector and and and...

...but if you don't have anyone for it yet, I'll finish it and get it in
"real" shape. I'll also do the rest of the sector/sectors/map when the
actual book ("First Survey"?) comes out.

Let me know.

- ----------
> From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
> To: traveller@NS.MPGN.COM
> Subject: Galactic 2.1 - Call for Sectors
> Date: Wednesday, September 25, 1996 4:10 PM
> 
> Howdy-do and other nonsensical civilities,
> 
> I've been yapping with Marc Miller these past few days about whether
> or not he'd grant permission for traveller fans to incorporate official
> sectors into Galactic or other sector-viewing freeware. I let him know
> that four people on the TML were already hard at work on a few sectors:
> 
> Dakin Burdick (burdickd@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu): Magyar Sector
> Stu Dollar (sdollar@goodnet.com): Dk. Nebula, Diaspora, Dagudashaag
> J.D. Burdick (JD.Burdick@t-online.de): Fornast
> Michel Boucher (alsandor@netcom.ca): Beyond, Vanguard Reaches
> 
> El Marc did spaketh:
> "OK. You have permission to include that subsector data with the
> appropriate disclaimers and acknowledgements."
> 
> I went on to ask:
> Great. Will you extend this to "official" sector data in general,
> so I don't need to ask your permission every time somebody wants to
> type in another Traveller sector?
> 
> So far, he hasn't responded, but I'm encouraged enough by his initial
> email to put out this "Call for Sectors" as it were. I'm guessing that
> there are a lot of you out there who have been working on various
> sectors and world write-ups, either for the official setting or for
> a completely homebrew galaxy. If _you_ are such a person, and you'd
> like your work to appear in the next release of Galactic, then please
> send me email letting me know.
> 
> I've currently got a bit of work to do on the program, so even if
> you're only halfway done, there's still time to get your work in.
> But please contact me so that I can put you on the list of who's
> doing what, just so that two people don't end up sending me different
> versions of the same sector for the same era.
> 
> Later...   jimv@empirenet.com
> 
> PS: For those who haven't yet seen Galactic, it can be downloaded
> from my homepage... http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv
> 
> PPS: I'm also working on an archive concerning Traveller and the
> copyright issues. So far, the archive is pretty light on the legal-speak.
> It's more a collection of articles dealing w/ GDW's & IG's policy, along
> with some speculation from TMLers and some additional files showing
> major transition points in the lives of the two companies as pertains
> to the Traveller RPG. I'll try to get this initial version of the archive
> finalized enough to distribute once I hear back from Marc about my
> question regarding the use of official sector data in sector-mapping
> freeware. If anyone wants a copy of the archive, I can send you a
> uuencoded/pkziped version along w/ instructions on how to deal with it
> if you need any help.

------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 13:10:52 +1300
Subject: Re: explosive decompression

As I understand it, ones lungs are not the only things that are 
contained  within the body by the surrounding atmospheric pressure. Our 
bodies are unique in the since that the muscles are tuned to hold our 
organs etc together under the pressure of earth atmosphere, just as our 
muscles are tuned to be able hold ourselves erect under the pull of 
earth gravity. Put a human body in a different pressure or gravitational 
environment and we don't simply adjust. For example, when one gets into 
heated pool one immediately feels the pressure of the heated water 
around our bodies pressing on our abdomen. Suppose there was no pressure 
at all surrounding our bodies, the pressure inside our abdomenal cavity 
and inside our skull, and inside our heart would be significantly 
greater than the zero pressure outside our bodies. Since our bodies, as 
I have said, are not designed to contain such a pressure difference, 
something has to give. If the pressure change is instantaneous the 
effect is more dramatic. 
Even more gradual changes in pressure can be dangerous. When diving 
crews move from depths underwater to the surface they have to make a 
gradual adjustment to the pressure difference in a decompression 
chamber. If they rush this process it would result in the conditions 
mentioned by a previous post on this list, to which I am responding. But 
that is an adjust from a situation where the outside pressure is greater 
than the internal pressure to a normal situation. The body is never in 
the dangerous position of having less than normal pressure outside the 
body.
I hope I have made it clear enough for people that getting bullet holes 
in ones suit in a decompressed environment is pretty much the ball-game 
unless one is able to patch it quickly.

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 22:46:29 -0500
Subject: The Millers (Was: Re: Usenet Stupidity)

>From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
>Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 22:04:41 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Re: Usenet Stupidity
>
>Actually, the best theory I have heard is that the "Miller's" are in fact
>representatives of a race of humaniti who have served Grandfather and the
>Ancients for millenia. Their real motives here on Terra are as yet
>unknown...

Their purpose is clear.  They are trying to make the TRUTH known to the public. 

The TRUTH is out there.


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 23:53:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Gauss

> As a comparison:
> 
> M-16A2 (5.56mm assult rifle, USA)  945m/sec
> AKM  (7.62mmS assult rifle, USSR)  715m/sec
> FN-FAL (7.62mm assult rifle, Belgium) 823m/sec
> UZI (9mmP submachine gun, Israel)  400m/sec
> 
> 3000m/sec would almost be overkill against personal armor; not to mention
> what happens when it hits bone...

According to the formula that Dv^.43-1 converts to the damage rating of
T4, a Gauss submachinegun created with FF&S, converted into GUNS GUNS GUNS
DV of 26.something, with a round weight of 1.54 grams and a muzzel
velocity of 3000 meters per second, created at TL 12 will only do 3 dice
of damage.  When compared with the Super Magnum pistol, which also does 3
dice damage, I don't see too much difference between the two weapon
types...

Hal


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 00:11:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Inspirational reading : SciFi

On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, Peter  H. Brenton wrote:
> 
> I'm taking the liberty of moving this disscussion to the Traveller list
> since everyone has an opinion on this.
> 
> On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Derek Wildstar wrote:
> 
> > It's right up there on my short list of the best SF ever written.
> > 
> > 
> > Here's a few items from the head of the list:
> > 
> > E. E. "Doc" Smith: "Skylark" series (_Skylark of Space_),
> >                    "Lensman" Series (_Triplanetary)
[sniperoonie]
> > 
> > What does your list look like?
> 
> Well, "Best SF ever written" is kind of high-falutin'.  How about
> "Favorite" or "Most Travelleresque" SF ever written?
> 
> Lets try not to repeat anything shall we?

[BIG snip]
> 
> Well, What else?

   Don't forget Bujold's "Miles Naismith" series and anything by H. Beam
Piper.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Jamie Young <jamie@tsc.scotnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:40:31 +0100
Subject: Re: Inspirational reading : SciFi

I would definitely put Red Mars, Green Mars and Blue Mars, a trilogy by Kim
Stanley Robinson, on the list of Best SciFi.  The series is an extraordinary
tour-de-force that changed my way of thinking about a whole range of issues.

Also, I recently read an anthology called "Foundation's Friends" which is a
collection of short stories by various writers set in the universe of The
Foundation.  It was published to celebrate Azimov's birthday (75th?)and is
worth reading if you liked "Foundation"

Jamie


------------------------------

From: CardSharks@aol.com
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 05:53:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Shadows Plans Online (finally)

In a message dated 96-09-24 23:34:41 EDT, you write:

<< Not to be a total curmudgeon, but I like the old way as well as the new.  
 Without a unified task system, you get the freedom to design specific 
 rules however you want.  Not that a having a task system disallows 
 this... it just makes it "un-canonical." :) >>

It doesn't make the old way un-canonical, since the referee is always free to
handle events as he or she wishes. But at least we now have the choice.

Marc Miller


------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 08:52:50 -0400
Subject: Re: VISIO for deckplans. -Reply

Tom Ellis stated:

>Charles asked about VISIO templates, and I would be interested too. I
>use
>VISIO alot for LAN and WAN design, and would love to start using it to
>design starships now that I have been playing alot more recently.  I have
>some hand drawn plans that I have been putting off introducing to my
>player's and its high time I got to work making them presentable.

And I, being one of those players, and having access to VISIO at work,
would love to see some of those plans.

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:47:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Inspirational reading : SciFi 

I second the vote for "Witches of Karres," though it's not very 
Travelleresque, being heavy on the psi and light on the rivets.

The co-author with Zelazny of "Flare" was Thomas T. Thomas.
I'm afraid I couldn't warm up to it.

Heinlein juveniles also get my vote and are VERY Travelleresque.
(Some wit once said the Golden Age of Science Fiction was about 14...)

I strongly recommend Poul Anderson's stories of the Polesotechnic 
League and, later in the same history, of the Terran Empire.  Very 
Travelleresque in architecture, and GREAT aliens -- both exotic and
believable.  

I also recommend the "Sector General" stories of James White, for the 
sake of their many aliens -- more exotic than believable, but still fun.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 10:09:56 +0000
Subject: Re: Inspirational reading : SciFi

The entire Dominic Flandry series
A.D.Foster's the Damned series
and anyhting by Tim Powers (general principles)

------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 10:09:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Computer Models 

Does anyone run cybernetic characters?  PCs, even?  With or without Virus?

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: ImperiumGames@ImperiumGames.com
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:46:41 -0500
Subject: HARDBACKS SHIPED TODAY

The books ship today!

Thanx for waiting.


Ken Whitman
President of Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 02:23:57 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Inspirational reading : SciFi

Moin Peter  H. Brenton,

> Well, What else?

	Stanislav Lem. e.g. "Solaris"

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 02:17:15 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Computer Models

Moin Tom Ellis,

> The /bis models date back to CT and it stands for 'built in storage'. 
> Essentially these models had only one memory space, no separate storage 
> space.  I won't go on about how brain dead Traveller computers are in 
> general...this laptop I am on right now has more power than a model 2/bis ;)

	isnt the difference in computers changed to /st,/fb and /fl,
	which means standart, fibre optical, flight. I dont have
	the CT computer rules, but I remember that CT had rules,
	while TNE hasnt.

	it would be nice to explain these old times rules to me
	(or to the audience here) just to think about 15 years
	SciFi.

	BTW does T4 also contain computer rules, or did they only
	took up the old names.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #455
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Traveller-digest        Thursday, 26 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 456

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Computer Models 
         2. The Millers
         3. Re: Inspirational reading : SciFi
         4. RE: HARDBACKS SHIPED TODAY 
         5. Re: Computer Models 
         6. Re: Inspirational reading : SciFi
         7. Vacuuming a starship
         8. Re: Computer Models 
         9. Killing each other
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #450
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #450
        12. Re: Gauss
        13. Hull values
        14. RE: Inspirational Reading - Science Fiction
        15. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #455
        16. Re: Re: Newbie question
        17. Firearms and Ammo Question
        18. Re: Newbie question
        19. Re: Newbie question
        20. Re: Hull values
        21. Re: Firearms and Ammo Question
        22. Re: FrontierThink
        23. Re: Firearms and Ammo Question
        24. Sinking Ships & T4 Blues

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 10:30:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Computer Models 

On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, Earl Wajenberg wrote:

> Does anyone run cybernetic characters?  PCs, even?  With or without Virus?
> 
> Earl Wajenberg
> 

[Raises hand wildly] "I do! I do"

I'm preparing a document on adapting NetRunner the CCG to a traveller
intrusion function.

I do not advocate Turning traveller into Cyberpunk, but direct connections
from the brain to a computer seem as important a sci-fi concept to me as
Jump Drive.

Most citizens of Glisten (TL 15, Asteroid world) have a "Jack" for
accomplishing routine tasks that can interupt the connection from the
brain to the senses and body and substitute "virtual" experiences and
perceptions.

The addition of artifical memory or enhanced eyes or ears (or just signal
processors between normal senses and the brain) seems a genuinely small
step from there.  In fact, devices such as "miracle ear" are primitive
versions of this.

Let me know if there is any interest in expanding on these rules.

Pete

P.S.  I think the Virus would make any such implants extremely dangerous.
There is no Virus as published in my campaign.


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 12:07:34 -0400
Subject: The Millers

Did you guys see the Michael keaton movie where he cloned himself multiple
times?
There's your answer. Instead of one Marc Miller signing 350 hardbacks, there are
350 of them (using names like Steve, Biff, etc to avoid confusion) signing
one each.
        I'll be Marc Miller sometimes WISHES there were 350 of him! :)
                                Allen

P.S. I never saw the above movie, so don't flame me if it was bad.


------------------------------

From: Robert Anstett Jr <a039689t@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 10:28:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Inspirational reading : SciFi

>> Lots of good material

  One name I havn't seen mentioned is Alan Steele. IMO he is the best 
"new" writer of hard sci fi to come out in the last 10 - 15 years. He has 
several books, all dealing with the new future. Some are an alternate 
history where Goddard's ideas are followed through during WW II. Lots of 
great ideas for a low tech/new space flight culture.




Robert Anstett Jr
a039689t@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us


------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 13:02:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: HARDBACKS SHIPED TODAY 

In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09: 46:41 CDT
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 13:02:00 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: The books ship today!
: 
: Thanx for waiting.

Just for the sake of curiosity, how were they shipped (ie first or
fourth class)?

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 13:23:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Computer Models 

On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, Earl Wajenberg wrote:

> Does anyone run cybernetic characters?  PCs, even?  With or without Virus?

   I have some players that love shadowrun, so yes I do occaxionally allow
it. You have to be careful, though, because I don't believe the Traveller
"feel" takes this too well.

   It can work if you justify it right, though.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Sanders  <kalyn@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 10:25:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Inspirational reading : SciFi

Also worth mention are the "Dummarest of Terra" series by E.C. Tubb. 
There are 31 books in the series - #32 "The Return" is due out next 
spring and concludes the series. In this series you have Tramp Starships, 
low passage, high passage, and the boredom of jump space. You have many 
bleak views of the dangers of getting stuck on anyone of the many 
low-population worlds of Tubb's galaxy. In all, Tubb presents a very good 
view of a Traveller like universe as seen through the eyes of a Mercenary.

Paul Sanders

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 13:27:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Vacuuming a starship

>From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
>Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:52:24 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: How long does it take to vent to vacuum?

>Hi all.  

>Okay, okay, so I goofed: The air would leave slower as the pressure
>dropped.  I'm just a lowly arts major!  I still think my method probably
>gives a good quick ballpark figure.  Could some engineering type help us

I think your figure is excellent provided that the pressure in the cabin
doesn't change very much. It stops working so well closer to vacuum.

If you assume an ideal gas of constant temperature with no impedence
inside the ship (not a bad assumption close to vacuum), the
formula for the pressure reduction is:

P(t) = P0 * exp(-t * u*A/V )

where P(t) is the pressure as a function of time, P0 is the initial
pressure in the ship, t is the time since the hull breach in seconds,
A is the surface area of the hole in square meters, V is the volume of
air in the ship in cubic meters, and u is a constant depending on the
kind of gas and the temperature:

u = 160 sqrt(T/m)

where T is the temperature in degrees Kelvin of the gas (room temperature
is about 300 Kelvin) and m is the molecular number of the gas (Oxygen
has m=32, Nitrogen has m=28). So air at 300 Kelvin has around u = 500 m/s.

So a cabin with 500 cubic meters (about that of the old CT scout
courier's) of air (m = about 30) at 300 Kelvin with a one-square-meter
hole punched thru it will be down to half of its initial atmosphere in
about 0.7 seconds. About 0.7 seconds after that, it will down to one
quarter of the initial pressure, then one eighth, one sixteenth, etc.

Granted, the ideal gas and constant temperature approximation are very
crude, but this may be better than nothing at all.

PS --- The formula for the half life of the atmosphere may be more
useful than the formula I gave above. It is:

Half life (in seconds) = 0.7 * u * A / V

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 13:35:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Computer Models 

Actually, by "cybernetic characters," I meant sentient robots or 
computers, though cyborgs are a perfectly reasonable construal, too,
of course.  (Yes, I'd be very reluctant to don cyberwear in a world
with Virus rattling around.)  Your world where most citizens have 
cyber-jacks reminds me of David Brin's future, where most spacers 
and all adult neo-dolphins are equipped with cyber-jacks.  (Are 
the dolphins of Traveller natural or transgenic?)

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 26 Sep 96 13:52:25 EDT
Subject: Killing each other

>Have any of you ever had a PC *kill* another PC?

More than once. The most memorable was a PC, clad in battledress, who ran into a
firefight to rescue his downed, unarmoured PC buddy (the group doctor as it
happened), who was actually safely in cover under a shot-up tank. He grabbed the
victim, horsed him on his shoulder and jogged out through the fight.  Of course,
poor ol' Kilpatient was utterly riddled by the time they reached safety...

>Have you ever done it yourself?

Actually, no, but more through luck than judgement.

>As a GM would you let it happen, and how would you handle the >aftermath?
Divine retribution? <g>

It all depends on the characters - and the players. From a character POV, if the
killing is widely OOC then I'd have a moan about innacurate portrayal; on the
other hand if the players start getting uptight then I'll step in to try and
calm things. But I wouldn't level retribution on players simply because the
character they killed was a PC.

That said, I wouldn't like it to happen every week...

HWF


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 19:11 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #450

In-Reply-To: <9609241753.AA11413@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 24 Sep 1996 08:55:51 GMT
Subject: Shadow Plans Delayed

After teaching from 08h45 to 22h00 yesterday, I ran out of steam before
posting the Shadow plans to the web.  With luck, they'll be there 
tonight. >>

Urgle...

I was watching Babylon 5 when I read that...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 19:11 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #450

In-Reply-To: <9609241753.AA11413@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 24 Sep 1996 08:55:51 GMT
Subject: Shadow Plans Delayed

After teaching from 08h45 to 22h00 yesterday, I ran out of steam before
posting the Shadow plans to the web.  With luck, they'll be there 
tonight. >>

Urgle...

I was watching Babylon 5 when I read that...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 11:44:13 -0700
Subject: Re: Gauss

On Wed, 25 Sep 1996,  Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net> said:

>According to the formula that Dv^.43-1 converts to the damage rating of
>T4, a Gauss submachinegun created with FF&S, converted into GUNS GUNS GUNS
>DV of 26.something, with a round weight of 1.54 grams and a muzzel
>velocity of 3000 meters per second, created at TL 12 will only do 3 dice
>of damage.  When compared with the Super Magnum pistol, which also does 3
>dice damage, I don't see too much difference between the two weapon
>types...

Is there a 3G3 conversion for T4 yet?  I know Greg Porter promised one..

The difference is that the 4mm dart is going to fly much farther that the
blunt .357M round travelling at ~350m/sec.  Also, since the gauss ammo
weighs 1/8th one magnum round, I can fire more than you.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
| "This ranks very high on the weird meter." |
|                  -Quinn Mallory, "Sliders" |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 15:15:30 -0400
Subject: Hull values

Hello list,
  I have been trying to discover the formula used for creating the hulls
in QSDS and in T4.  As yet, I am unable to do so.  Also, I would like to
know why certain hulls listed in T4 have an armor rating of 0 as compared
with others.
  In some cases, the Max G rating listed for one hull type (such as
cylinder) at one volume level as being a max of 4, while a slightly larger
version of that same hull type is listed as only being a 2.  Specifically
speaking - the 200 ton version versus the 600 ton version.  Why does an
open frame structure ship of 2000 tons have the exact same structural
value as the 400 ton unstreamlined wedge hull?

  In short, examining the values printed in T4 seem to indicate that the
ship building rules does not work in T4 - at least to me.  My initial love
affair with T4 is rapidly cooling in light of what seems to be typesetting
errors, as well as developement errors.  

  Could someone on this list help salvage a potential customer for IG?  At
this point, I suspect that I am rapidly becoming discouraged with T4 and
any supporting materials that may come out in the future.  If it doesn't
make sense, I generally either "fix" the system with homebrewed fixes, or
I drop the system entirely.  Since I don't understand the formulas - as in
I can't even see that they exist, I can't "fix" the system.  As for
dropping it, I would be sorry to see it happen, since I have a strong
enjoyment of CT from years gone by...

One last note:
  It is my hope that the Naval Architect's Handbook does away with the
"ablative" effect of armor in T4.  A well armored ship should be able to
withstand battering from lesser energy weapons.  On the other hand, a
small ship should not be able to generate an armor rating that competes
with Dreadnaughts!  Setting it up such that armor has a numerical level,
and that weapons have to overcome that numerical level or be "ineffective"
would seem to be the most "realistic" path to follow.  In short, I would
hope that the system sets the standard where armor is rated at some value,
that weapons are rated at some value - with overpenetration of weapon
value versus armor value grants some form of damage effect.  High Guard
had the right idea in that higher firepower in a short time period would
grant a higher chance of getting a "hit".  On the other hand, a ship with
an armor rating (pulling numbers from thin air here) of 25 should not be
able to be penetrated with an attack that has 26 1 point lasers.  On the
other hand, that same 25 point armor should be overcome by one 26 point
Laser to the tune of one point's worth of damage.  One way this could be
achieved is by having the "damage" rating of the ship equal the number of
dice rolled for damage effect.  Any damage rolled that is higher than the
armor rating gets through, while any damage that doesn't get past, is
surface effect only.  Example: a ship with an armor rating of 10 needs to
have 11 points of damage rolled before anything gets through to the
interior.  If a weapon is rated as being a 4/0/0/0, and a roll of 4 dice
yields 14 points of damage, then there will be 4 internal hits, and 10
surface hits.  The surface hits chart might look like:

 2 - drive hit
 3 - Sensor hit
 4 - empty hull hit (ie nothing is damaged except paint and surface finish
 5 - empty hull hit
 6 - turret hit
 7 - empty hull hit
 8 - turret hit
 9 - empty hull hit
10 - commo dish hit
11 - sensor hit
12 - drive hit

  In any event, I don't know where the ship combat rules are going, and I
sincerely hope that I am not looking at "jumping" ship on this one - it
deserves better...

  Thanks in advance for any help that I might recieve...

Hal Carmer





------------------------------

From: "Dorn, Michael" <Michael_Dorn@dscc.dla.mil>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 15:49:57 -0400
Subject: RE: Inspirational Reading - Science Fiction

Adding my two cents worth - you must not forget A Bertram Chandler!
Commodore Grimes is great!
And the Australian background is excellent.
Michael Dorn
>
>

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:17:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #455

>
>From: ImperiumGames@ImperiumGames.com
>Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:46:41 -0500
>Subject: HARDBACKS SHIPED TODAY
>
>The books ship today!
>
>Thanx for waiting.
>
>
>Ken Whitman
>President of Imperium Games

Thanks, Ken. You can come out of hiding now! :)
        
                                        Allen


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 26 Sep 1996 17:29:22 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Newbie question

> Has it occured to anyone else that the person who captured this ship
>would just clear all the identifications on it, and sell it to someone ?

Stripping identification will probably be quite difficult.  Lots of parts to
have serial numbers, molecular analysis to location planet/company/lot number
of manufacture, etc.

Keep in mind that technology aids the detectives as well as the thieves.

Now, a dishonest buyer might well take the ship - at a major discount - but
an honest buyers will demand papers and so forth.  

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 22:26:11 UT
Subject: Firearms and Ammo Question

I'm a complete greenbean when it comes to firearms, so as I was reading the 
thread on Gauss weapons, I had a question:

What is the significance in measuring/comparing the various speeds of a 
projectile?  

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 14:42:41 PST
Subject: Re: Newbie question

In mail you write:

>>       Current (1996) practice is that Loyds will pay 10% of
>>       ship and cargo. A friend of mine got rich this way.
>  Has it occured to anyone else that the person who captured this ship
> would just clear all the identifications on it, and sell it to someone ?

This is one of the reasons *for* the salvage laws. It makes you have a
choice between the 10% salvage value which is 100% *legal*, and the
risk of trying to black market the ship. Remember, ships are produced
in small enough quantities at any given location that they are at least
*somewhat* unique. That means that it'll be possible to look at a ship
with *all* serial numbers removed and pin it down to a small number of
ships from only one or two sources. And the rest of those ships are
likely to be accounted for, making it pretty obvious which one this is.

And if you think you can get as much as 10% of the value of *anything*
selling on the black market, I've got a bridge to sell you.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 14:49:55 PST
Subject: Re: Newbie question

>> If a ship is found which is Imperial property, /my/ Imperium wouldn't pay 
>> a single credit to the person returning it beyond perhaps the expenses 
>> associated with doing so. 

And in that case, your Imperium will never get any ships returned to
it. It isn't worth the trouble for honest ship owners (at most, they'll
*mail* in a notice about where they spotted it from their next port).
And dishonest shipowners will strip the ship of parts that can't be
traced easily, sell those, and then either abandon the remains or, if
convenient, turn it into scrap and sell it as such.

Governments have to be realistic about such things. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:43:45 -0600
Subject: Re: Hull values

At 03:15 pm 9/26/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hello list,
>  I have been trying to discover the formula used for creating the hulls
>in QSDS and in T4.  As yet, I am unable to do so.  Also, I would like to
>know why certain hulls listed in T4 have an armor rating of 0 as compared
>with others.

        All QSDS hulls were designed using FF&S. There's no "simple"
formula, because the QSDS hulls included many separate components lumped
together:
        - The hull itself (armor and and internal structure, for a specific
armor rating and Max G)
        - Controls
        - ContraGrav
        - Life Support (I believe but am not certain).

>  In some cases, the Max G rating listed for one hull type (such as
>cylinder) at one volume level as being a max of 4, while a slightly larger
>version of that same hull type is listed as only being a 2.  Specifically

        That's because one hull was designed for a MaxG of 4 and the larger
one was only designed for a MaxG of 2.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 20:27:28 +0000
Subject: Re: Firearms and Ammo Question

The kinetic energy (in short, the lethality potential) is based on the speed of the projectile 
squared times the mass divided by two. By inserting a few numbers you will quickly 
find it is pretty easy to get a real kicker of a bullet by upping the speed

------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:02:05 +1300
Subject: Re: FrontierThink

I like the style of games Joe Walsh and Matthew Macintyre say they are 
running. Anyone who is new to the Traveller family of games should pay 
close attention to the comentary of these two referees. They have an 
excellent sense of what the game should be about and give a good lead to 
would be referees.

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 19:07:07 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Firearms and Ammo Question

 
> I'm a complete greenbean when it comes to firearms, so as I was reading the 
> thread on Gauss weapons, I had a question:
> 
> What is the significance in measuring/comparing the various speeds of a 
> projectile?  

In a nutshell, energy.  A projectile that hits a target, and doesn't
bounce or go right through deposits nearly all of its enegy to the
target.  Bouncing leaves some kinetic energy in the round, as does
over penetration (going through the target).

Kinetic Energy (KE) goes as the square of the projectile's velocity:

KE = 1/2 * m v^2

m is the mass of your projectile.  You can either make a bigger
bullet, or increase the velocity.  As you can see, you get more out
from each unit velocity increase than you do from each mass
increase.

Some effects of projectiles depend more on momentum, which looks
like m*v.  In this case, you get as much out per unit velocity as
per unit mass.

So, if you can leave the bullet in the target, you want KE to be as
big as possible so you increase v.  That's another reason for
hollowpoint bullets (aka dum dums).  They expand, making a bigger
wound, but they also stop the bullet in the target so it doesn't go
right through, taking energy with it.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: tubs@globalnet.co.uk (Craig Vaughton)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 02:30:39 +0100
Subject: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues

Hi folks, 

Here's where I add my ten cents worth to one debate and stick my neck out later.

In Traveller Digest #454 David Jaques-Watson said

> 2.      HMA SHEFFIELD
> 
> Larry Hadley said:
> >Not true. In fact, the Sheffield did not detect the Exocet at all until
> >just before impact. It isn't really known for sure _why_ they didn't
> 
> One of the ship losses went like this: the targeted ship did not have the
> close-in weapons system fitted, but another did. This second ship was
> performing overwatch for the squadron. It detected the missile and locked
> on, but then its line-of-sight was blocked as the targetted ship moved into
> the way. Seconds later, the targetted ship was hit by the incoming missile.
> 
> Was this the Sheffield incident, or one of the other ships?
 
I suspect that this was one of the other incidents.

The accounts that I've read/seen seem to indicate that HMS Sheffield was
using satalitte communications equipment at the time of the missile attack.
For some reason this prohibits or interferes in some way with the air search
radar or vice versa. Either way the air search radar was not active at the
time of the strike.
When coupled with the lack of an effective point defence weapon system, (I
don't think manually aimed 20mm cannon or LMG's count !) the ship bearing my
city's name was sent to the bottom because of budget cuts and compromised
design.

I suppose it didn't help when you don't have any AEW aircraft. Primarily
because the last carrier large enough to support them had been scrapped 5 or
6 years earlier. It's intended replacement, CV(N)-01, Britains only planned
N-Powered surface vessel had been axed way before that, but thats another story.

BTW, after the attack on Sheffield, the Argentine's had only 4 Exocets left.
Three of these sank the Atlantic Conveyer about a week later.

> Two lessons from the war (among others!) were (1) ensure that each ship has
> its own defences; and (2) don't build superstructures from aluminum alloys -
> the metal _burns_.

If anyone takes a look at most Soviet designed vessels, including those in
the roles envisaged for the Type 42 Destroyers like Sheffield, they seem to
have a far more hetrogenous mix of weapon systems. I've no idea if they're
any better, or any more effective, it just seems sensible.

There must be alot of aircrew who'll atest to the latter !


Meanwhile, back to Traveller !

I've finally sucumbed. I couldn't wait any longer for my hardback to arrive,
so I was forced, unmercifully, to by a softcover. Ok so I didn't need any
pursuasion really. Once I found that the small games store outside the city
centre had already had a shipment of T4, in and gone in a matter of days !
When the next delivery arrived, hardbacks included, that was that.

It's very nice. The drawings are good, colour and B&W, I've always liked
Chris Foss's artwork anyway so the colour plates are a bonus. The quality of
the content is just as high as it's always been and my appetite for the next
additions is wetted....but ?!

HERESY MODE ON (Stand by with the NOMEX suit)

It feels that there's something missing. Yes, apart from the rather obvious
bits like jump potential tables and the rest of the things that are on the
errata page at IG's web site. There seems to be a lack of.. substance for
want of a better word. Not in the strength or flexibility of the rules, but
in the product as a whole.
I know that a return to the "simpler" ways of CT are envisaged and thinking
about it, the feel of the T4 production is more akin to the three small
books in the black box than MT and certainly TNE are. But that was what
seems like an age, yet not two minutes ago; it's nearly 20 years.

Ok, all the essential rules are there, as you'd expect and it's obvious that
a quick return to the market was needed to ensure survival later. But if IG
are expecting to encourage real newbie players into the fold, then dangling
the Milieu 0 carrot won't work, without more background, tie-ins or
generally explanation in the basic set. It's ok for the "Vets", we've spent
years playing and amassed bookcases full of endless expansions, magazines
and the rest, sufficient to tide us over until the latest new official, I
daren't use the "C" word, offering appears.

T4 is predominantly preaching to the converted.

HERESY MODE OFF (Just call the fire brigade now)

Now don't get me wrong, I like it, it's great to have the one true game back
on the shelves. News of my death was premature and all that. It's just,
maybe , I don't know, I was perhaps expecting more ? Or should that be to much ?


What's it say...light the blue touch paper...and retire to a safe distance.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #456
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Traveller-digest         Friday, 27 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 457

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Computer Models
         2. Re: Time to Vent to Vacuum
         3. Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues
         4. Re:  Hull values
         5. RPSC: Impressions from my first use of it
         6. Re: Favourite SF novels
         7. Re: Firearms and Ammo Question
         8. Re: jack on this.
         9. Re: Formula Heaven
        10. Re: Time to Vent to Vacuum, oops
        11. Re: Firearms and Ammo Question
        12. Re: Computer Models
        13. Cybertech (Was Re: Computer Models)
        14. Re: Inspirational Reading - SF
        15. Physics formulas
        16. Re:  Hull values

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 00:58:24 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Computer Models

Moin Earl Wajenberg,

> Does anyone run cybernetic characters?  PCs, even?  With or without Virus?

	Ok I think we have a funny group (currently without ship)

	Lutz	Takeda  - Human   - Captain and Ship owner
	Eike	Nadine  - Human   - Stuard, Broker, Electronics
	Alex	Howl    - Vrage   - Chief and Security
	Serge	Galileo - tl-f/fb - Fire Control and Astrogation
	Benkt	Nasti   - tl-c    - Enginiering

	As they dont belong to the Guild, they have trouble nearly
	anywhere, lots of fun.  Currently thier ship was captured
	by a vampire fleet. But they made so much chaos that there
	are now only 2 ships left both are drifting without help.

	As a refree I also designed a high level NPC called Muecke
	you can look at http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin for
	him.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: J_Lambert <72300.2131@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 26 Sep 96 21:20:28 EDT
Subject: Re: Time to Vent to Vacuum

I'm not an engineer, but if an astronomer will do:

The pressure will decrease exponentially with time. For a 100-ton ship the
pressure will drop by half every 0.81 seconds. To go from sea level pressure
(earth) to the pressure at the top of Everest (29,000 ft) would take 1.3
seconds; to 50,000 ft, 2.3 seconds; and to 100,000 ft, 4.7 seconds. 

I had to dust off some of my old physics books on the definition of pressure, so
someone should check my results. I've ignored several factors like the change in
the temperature of the air, etc. The results are very approximate anyway because
bulkheads, door ways, etc. will change the results considerably (slowing the
pressure drop). Charles Collin wasn't so far off in his estimate.

(Old timer war story coming.) All of this reminds of the time I was in an
airlock in a jumpsuit when it was vented to (near) vacuum. (True story!) The
first indications were the noise and what felt like a punch to my chest as the
air in my lungs escaped. The airlock then filled with a cloud of condensing
water vapor. 

The airlock was the airlock of an Air Force altitude chamber where I was taking
flight training. It was vented to the main chamber to demonstrate an explosive
decompression. We went from sea level to about 40,000 ft in seconds. I had
plenty of time to locate and don my oxygen mask. (I wonder how long someone
could survive in a real vacuum with an oxygen supply? Pressure breathing is an
acquired skill, but the mask would seal the mouth and nose.) 

I'm sure there are some Air Force or NASA studies on the subject. I'll do some
digging.

Later, John Lambert


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:50:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues

On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Craig Vaughton wrote:

[snip]
> HERESY MODE ON (Stand by with the NOMEX suit)
> 
> It feels that there's something missing. Yes, apart from the rather obvious
> bits like jump potential tables and the rest of the things that are on the
> errata page at IG's web site. There seems to be a lack of.. substance for
> want of a better word. Not in the strength or flexibility of the rules, but
> in the product as a whole.

You moron!  How /dare/ you criticize almighty Traveller?!?!  

Just kidding. :)


> I know that a return to the "simpler" ways of CT are envisaged and thinking
> about it, the feel of the T4 production is more akin to the three small
> books in the black box than MT and certainly TNE are. But that was what
> seems like an age, yet not two minutes ago; it's nearly 20 years.

[tired sigh]  It /has/ been a long time, indeed.  It's ... weird ... to 
realize that I've been playing this game for 17 years.  On the one hand, 
it shows I'm a pretty stable guy. :)  On the other hand, I must be a real 
stick in the mud.  "You're still playing the same game you started 
playing 17 YEARS ago?!?" :)


> Ok, all the essential rules are there, as you'd expect and it's obvious that
> a quick return to the market was needed to ensure survival later. But if IG
> are expecting to encourage real newbie players into the fold, then dangling
> the Milieu 0 carrot won't work, without more background, tie-ins or
> generally explanation in the basic set. It's ok for the "Vets", we've spent
> years playing and amassed bookcases full of endless expansions, magazines
> and the rest, sufficient to tide us over until the latest new official, I
> daren't use the "C" word, offering appears.
> 
> T4 is predominantly preaching to the converted.

Soap-Box Mode ON

Possibly.  Maybe even probably (I'm not just a stick in the mud - I'm 
wishy-washy, too[G]).  But, darn it, I like it that way!  I'm probably 
being very selfish thinking this way, but I think it's about time someone 
put out a role-playing product targeted to /me/!  I'm sick and tired of 
RPGs being nothing but background with a little bit of rules thrown in 
for color, or a collection of rules that is so immense that one can't 
possibly play "correctly" without first going through the equivalent of a 
college course in game mechanics.  Admittedly, Shadowrun strikes a nice 
balance in this regard, but the trend has been for quite some time now 
toward rule-less games.  I want rules books to be 90% rules and 
to be reasonably short - don't give me a rule for everything.  Campaign 
books should be 90% background and of a reasonable length (96 pages or 
thereabouts) as well.  I like it that way.  It was good enough for 
grand-dad, and it's good enough for me. :)


> HERESY MODE OFF (Just call the fire brigade now)
> 
> Now don't get me wrong, I like it, it's great to have the one true game back
> on the shelves. News of my death was premature and all that. It's just,
> maybe , I don't know, I was perhaps expecting more ? Or should that be 
> to much ?

Nah, you're probably right.  Although T4 has sold well, it is probably 
true that many, many of today's gamers look at it and become disgusted at 
the old-fashioned approach IG has taken.  "What, no clans?  No drawings 
of scantily clad women?  No supernatural beings?  Aaarrrghh!"  Heck, the 
lack of the "grunge" feel will probably turn a lot of people off, too.  

Oh, well.

Soap Box Mode OFF

BTW, I'm not implying that YOU want those things (clans, etc.).  It's clear 
that you want a product that has more Travelleresque background in the main 
rulebook, not a bunch of garbage added on to attract the White Wolf 
crowd.  You just happened to give me an opening to go off on a rant, and 
I was bad and took it. :)


> What's it say...light the blue touch paper...and retire to a safe distance.

Hopefully my response wasn't all that difficult to suffer through. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 22:42:31 -0400
Subject: Re:  Hull values

As the author of the QSD System, I feel responsible for the confusion, and
I'll do my best to answer your questions.  I'm sorry that the system was
confusing, and I hope that future editions will be less so.

Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net> wrote:
>   I have been trying to discover the formula used for creating the hulls
> in QSDS and in T4.  As yet, I am unable to do so.

There's not exactly a "formula" ... but the hulls are all designed with a
consistent system, that _will_ be compatible with forthcoming products (such
as the Starships suppliment, and the projected Naval Architect's Handbook
previously known as "FF&S2").

The QSDS/T4 hulls are put together strictly according to the rules from FF&S
for such things.  They all include:

1) A basic hull
2) Internal structure braced to the hull's G rating.
3) A life-support system.
4) Control systems.
5) Artificial Gravity with acelleration compensation.
6) Airlocks and cargo doors based on the hull's size.
7) A contra-gravity system that can nullify the hull's rated mass.

There isn't a "formula" in the sense that there's only one correct 400-ton
streamlined cylinder hull.  There are lots - dozens, once you count the
combination of G ratings and armor values.  From a sheer size perspective, I
had to pick only a few.  I tried to pick interesting ones.

> Also, I would like to know why certain hulls listed in T4 have an armor
> rating of 0 as compared with others.

Some hulls include:
8) Additional armor.

If you want more hulls (probably more hulls than you know what to do with),
you can download the Big Table of Hulls from my Web site.  This is a _huge_
table that lists a complete cross-section of the possible hulls.
It's at http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/qsds/

>   In some cases, the Max G rating listed for one hull type (such as
> cylinder) at one volume level as being a max of 4, while a slightly larger
> version of that same hull type is listed as only being a 2.  Specifically
> speaking - the 200 ton version versus the 600 ton version.  Why does an
> open frame structure ship of 2000 tons have the exact same structural
> value as the 400 ton unstreamlined wedge hull?

Because that's what the designer specified.  There's no reason why (for
example) all of the hulls could have been designed to 6G and 80 points of
armor - except that 1G free traders would be hauling around six times the
internal structure, and a couple dozen times the armor, that they really
needed.

I chose different specifications for different hulls in anticipation of
their "most likely" use, and to make things interesting.  I included all of
the hulls I could think of from Classic Traveller, so you'll find a 100
ton hull that's perfect for a "Type-S" Scout/Courier, a 200-tonner that's
just right for a "Far Trader", and two different 400-tonners, that happen to
match the Classic "Fat Trader" and "Patrol Cruiser".  The patrol hull, of
course, is designed for more G's and has more armor than the trader hull.
On top of the classic hulls, I added a bunch more that I thought would be
interesting or useful (the 300-tonner is, for example, just the right size
and shape to be the Millenium Falcon).

>   In short, examining the values printed in T4 seem to indicate that the
> ship building rules does not work in T4 - at least to me.

They work, it's just that you didn't get them in T4.  QSDS is a lot like the
old Book 2 ship design system - you're picking "off the shelf", pre-designed
and pre-fabricated components and assembling them.  You can't always get
what you want, and you sometimes have to accept less than perfect efficency.
On the other had, it's fast and cheap (which is why you get a discount).

When your players ask why they can't get a 300 ton hull that has 80 points
of armor and is stressed to 6Gs, you can play the part of the shipyard
foreman, shrug, and say "because Ling-Standard doesn't make 'em that way."


> this point, I suspect that I am rapidly becoming discouraged with T4

I hope this helps; I can understand your frustration, but the QSD System
that's in the T4 rules is necissarily incomplete - we didn't have enough
space, or time, to present a more general, do-anything system.

> It is my hope that the Naval Architect's Handbook does away with the
> "ablative" effect of armor in T4.

That's something that was built into the T4 "basic" ship combat system, and
really isn't a feature of the ship design.  The Naval Architect's Handbook
isn't completely hashed out, but it's looking like the NAH will provide you
with a complete data sheet on your design, and then give you rules for
converting it to make the numbers that you'll need for the various combat
systems.  For example, the NAH design might say that the hull is armored
with 1cm of Bonded Superdense armor, and then note that it has a T4/RPSC
armor value of 80.

I see this primarily as a combat-system issue, not a design system issue.
The QSDS designs were all originally done with the FF&S system, so the
design parameters are available to rate the design for combat systems other
than the T4 basic combat system.  If you have Battle Rider, and wish to use
that, simply divide the T4 armor values by 10 to get the BR values.

> Example: a ship with an armor rating of 10 needs to
> have 11 points of damage rolled before anything gets through to the
> interior.  If a weapon is rated as being a 4/0/0/0, and a roll of 4 dice
> yields 14 points of damage, then there will be 4 internal hits, and 10
> surface hits.

This isn't a bad idea at all; particularly if you like to roll lots of dice,
Champions-style.  I'm not sure it'll work with the numbers that QSDS/T4
gives you for weapons, but you might be able to make it work by
approximately halving the armor values.

> In any event, I don't know where the ship combat rules are going, and I
> sincerely hope that I am not looking at "jumping" ship on this one - it
> deserves better...

Indeed, Traveller does; the T4 "basic" ship combat system isn't very good.
A better one, IMHO, for role-playing sessions is the Role-Playing Space
Combat System (RPSC).  Although I'm not the author of that system, I
contributed heavily, and host it on my Web site:
Get RPSC from http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/rpsc/

RPSC still has ablative armor (sorry), but has a re-designed damage system,
a new movement system, and is in general way superior to the combat system
that came with T4.  RPSC is still in testing (version 0.90), but looks good;
if you'd like to take a look at it, try it in your game, and give us
feedback, I'm sure it could be even better.

Still under development on the GDW-Beta list is a detailed, boardgame style
combat system that _will_ feature non-ablative armor and may other sublties
(including full rules for missiles).  I'm sure that the detailed system will
be announced on the TML as soon as it's ready for testing, too.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 23:49:27 -0400
Subject: RPSC: Impressions from my first use of it

I ran a T4 adventure at our gaming club meeting tonight ("Rubicon Cross",
actually) and we used RPSC 0.90 to resolve the space combat. The PC's had a
Scout/Courier with one laser turret. The enemies had two IRON FIST class
Corsairs and a COBRA-Class Corsair (it appeared in an issue of CHALLENGE).
The battle was extremely interesting; I am now a convert to the armor system
used in RPSC. However my players had one complaint. They would like to see
the side that has the initiative get to CHOOSE whether they go first or
last. That way, they could have "held their fire" until the enemies got
close enough to do some damage to. Perhaps have both sides move
simultaneously a hex at a time! Then they can fire at any point in their
movement as they "dance" around one another. Since Movement and fire can all
be combined anyway, why not have all of it (for both sides) happen
simultaneously. I'm running Traveller again Friday night; I'll test this
idea and get back to you with it.
                        Allen

------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 00:31:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Favourite SF novels

Can never resist when this subject comes up...

10 Great SF Novels
(in alphabetical order; not necessarily the _best_ sf novels, natch)

John Brunner: _Stand on Zanzibar_
John Brunner: _The Sheep Look Up_
Samuel R. Delany: _Nova_
Frank Herbert: _Dune_
William Gibson & Bruce Sterling: _The Difference Engine_
Frederick Pohl: _Gateway_
Rachel Pollack: _Unquenchable Fire_
Geoff Ryman: _The Child Garden_
Neal Stephenson: _Snow Crash_
John Varley: The Gaea Trilogy (_Titan_; _Wizard_; _Demon_)

10 Great SF Stories & Novellas:
(in alphabetical order)

Greg Egan, "Learning To Be Me"
Christopher Evans, "The Facts of Life"
William Gibson, "Fragments of a Hologram Rose"
Fritz Leiber, "Coming Attraction"
Bruce Sterling, "Twenty Evocations"
Theodore Sturgeon, "Slow Sculpture"
Raccoona Sheldon (aka Alice Sheldon), "The Screwfly Solution"
James Tiptree, Jr. (aka Alice Sheldon), "'Houston, Houston, Do You Read?'"
Lucius Shepard, "Salvador"
John Varley, "Beatnik Bayou"

A Fine SF Anthology:

_Northern Stars: The Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_ (Tor hc, 1994),
edited by David Hartwell and Glenn Grant [Whups - how'd that get in
here?!].

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
    "That which does not kill us makes us stranger."



------------------------------

From: Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 00:55:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Firearms and Ammo Question

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 
> I'm a complete greenbean when it comes to firearms, so as I was reading the
> thread on Gauss weapons, I had a question:
> 
> What is the significance in measuring/comparing the various speeds of a
> projectile?
> 
>                                         ---Boyd
 Hello Boyd
  The bottom line is energy. You toss a baseball at a mans chest at 5   
mph. no problem, at 750 mph. You got a real problem an a hole. More    
speed more energy. 
                                                      Charlie

------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:12:35 +1300
Subject: Re: jack on this.

> 
> Actually, by "cybernetic characters," I meant sentient robots or
> computers, though cyborgs are a perfectly reasonable construal, too,
> of course.  (Yes, I'd be very reluctant to don cyberwear in a world
> with Virus rattling around.)  Your world where most citizens have
> cyber-jacks reminds me of David Brin's future, where most spacers
> and all adult neo-dolphins are equipped with cyber-jacks.  (Are
> the dolphins of Traveller natural or transgenic?)
> 
> Earl Wajenberg

I don't know about the dophins but intelligent buildings and complexes 
are a common theme in my Traveller games. There seems to be nothing 
worse than a smug AI to piss off my players. 

If cybernetics are to be included in a Traveller game there would have 
to be some house rules developed to recognise the equivalent of loss of 
Empathy (Cyberpunk) or Essence (Shadowrun) that occurs with the addition 
of items of cyberware. In my Traveller environment, both cybernetics and 
psionics are considered of an alien nature and are considered to be 
extremely condusive to a low ability to empathise with fellow human 
beings. Only cybernetic devices of a critical medical nature are freely 
available.


------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:56:30 +1300
Subject: Re: Formula Heaven

> 
> P(t) = P0 * exp(-t * u*A/V )
> 
> 

Fantastic!

What is P measured in? and can you make up a formula for the thrust 
generated by sucha vent? 

Please Please



------------------------------

From: J_Lambert <72300.2131@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 27 Sep 96 01:11:34 EDT
Subject: Re: Time to Vent to Vacuum, oops

I slipped a digit in my calculations of the time to vent a 100-ton Scout through
a one square meter hole. The correct times are:

8.1 seconds for pressure to drop to one half current value

13 sec from earth sea level to the top of Everest (29,000 ft) equivalent
pressure
23 sec from sea level to   50,000 ft equivalent
47 sec from sea level to 100,000 ft equivalent
and so on until you reach what you consider vacuum. Because the pressure drops
exponentially, it will never reach exactly zero. The times for larger or smaller
ships scale directly with their displacements.

The caculations still ignore some of the higher order effects. The presence of
internal walls, doorways, equipment, etc. will have a larger effect and will
slow the pressure drop significantly, except in the immediate area of the
breach. If the ship is functional, automatic hatches will close to seal off the
undamaged areas. 

Drills should be conducted routinely to improve the chances of the crew and,
especially, the passengers to locate and don their vac suits quickly. A DM
should apply, maybe based on the number of drills and/or the time since the last
drill. Some consideration also needs to apply for a person's location relative
to suit storage areas or being able reach a secure, sealable location. Emergency
"beach ball" survival equipment throughout the ship would not be a bad idea. As
in some WWII submarine movies, at some point a decission may have to be made to
close off a damaged section of the ship that still has people in it.

I agree with the earlier comment that decompressing the ship prior to combat has
some advantages. In particular, everyone would already be in their vac suits.
Some consideration would have to be given, however, to a reduction in an
individual's ability to operate his station in a vac suit. An alternative might
be to leave the ship pressurized and have vac suits on with helments and gloves
off, but within easy reach. All hatches should also be closed. There would most
likely be a variation in procedures between navies and, perhaps, between
captains.

All in all, a hull breach is a nasty thing.

Later, John Lambert


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 23:26:09 -0700
Subject: Re: Firearms and Ammo Question

On Thu, 26 Sep 96, "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com> said:

>I'm a complete greenbean when it comes to firearms, so as I was reading the 
>thread on Gauss weapons, I had a question:
>
>What is the significance in measuring/comparing the various speeds of a 
>projectile?

Velocity affects how far a round will travel with any accuracy, and how much
energy it will transfer to the target.

Ammo design is the art of finding the right balance between weight and
velocity to give the desired effect.  Pistols tend to use large calibers
with fairly low speeds, since the design of the weapon doesn't allow for
much bracing by the firer against recoil.  Rifles use smaller rounds with
much higher velocity.

Gauss weapons use very small rounds (4mmx25mm) accelerated to very high
speed.  Since the force of impact is concentrated in a very small area, the
round penetrates light armor with ease.

This is why modern bullets are still made of lead.  Since most hand weapons
still rely on the brute force impact of the "heavy", slow projectile, that
bullet must be made out of a dense metal. 


+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
| "This ranks very high on the weird meter." |
|                  -Quinn Mallory, "Sliders" |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 23:26:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Computer Models

Peter  H. Brenton <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu> wrote:

<snip>
>I do not advocate Turning traveller into Cyberpunk, but direct connections
>from the brain to a computer seem as important a sci-fi concept to me as
>Jump Drive.
Very much agreed.

>Most citizens of Glisten (TL 15, Asteroid world) have a "Jack" for
>accomplishing routine tasks that can interupt the connection from the
>brain to the senses and body and substitute "virtual" experiences and
>perceptions.
Where do you get this from?

<snip>
>Let me know if there is any interest in expanding on these rules.
>Pete

Yes, very much so!  If you have such rules please post them or email them 
to me.

>P.S.  I think the Virus would make any such implants extremely dangerous.
>There is no Virus as published in my campaign.
A good idea, I always hated the Virus.

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com



------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 23:58:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Cybertech (Was Re: Computer Models)

Some amount of cybertech makes sense in Traveller.  The brain-computer
interface is a widely used part of most modern SF.  In addition, it is a
heck of a lot more likely than jump drives. 

However, Traveller should not be cyberpunk.  I don't see most citizens of
the Imperium having their eyes gouged out and their arms cut off to have
the latest in implant tech installed. 

OTOH, neural jacks make good sense.  You could even have a neural jack
which could be plugged into something like Lt. LaForge's visor on ST:TNG.
Wear this up on your forehead and you have cybereyes and real eyes both.
(Ie you don't go blind if an EMP happens, this happened to a character of
mine once, I learned that lesson...)

Sure, a few worlds might get into the cyberpunk metal-is-better-than-flesh
spirit, but most wouldn't and such places would be regarded as damned
eccentric (and interesting places to send PCs: "You have arms of *flesh* I
can't shake your hand, let me talk to the *real* captain... :)

The key is to not make cybertech *too* powerful.  If it makes you very
good with computers then 90% of programmers will have it (which is fine by
me) if, (like in Cyberpunk 2020) it makes you better at *everything* then
everyone will have it, this is IMHO not a good idea.  Limit the bonuses it
gives: maybe skill wires and skill chips (except maybe for EDU based
skills) don't exist. 

If you can jack in a chip and have Gun or Air Raft skill of 8 + Dex
everyone will want one.  However, if it only makes things like History and
Linguistics better then lots of folks won't bother. 

Comments?

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com



------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 00:00:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Inspirational Reading - SF

How about Andre Norton.  Her Witch World books got *very* bad very fast,
and she hasn't written anything exceptional since around 1975, but her SF
of the 50s, 60s and early 70s is wonderful. 

Sargasso of Space and the other two "Solar Queen" books are wonder stories
about Traveller-like Free Traders.  Moon of Three Rings, Storm Over
Warlock, and one of my favorites, Android at Arms are great inspiration. 

I've been thinking of using the beginning of Android at Arms for a game: 
The party (and likely an NPC or two) wakes up in a deserted prison complex
on an unknown planet.  They all have very vague memories but feel they've
been here for a *long* time (but they don't look any older).  Everyone
there is someone important, or a close relative of someone important, an
important noble, the child of a respected diplomat...  To add to the
confusion the last date everyone remembers differs by as much as several
decades. 

One of the NPCs remembers a story about how a secret criminal organization
discretely offered to replace any important person with an android of
their choosing.  Are the PCs androids who were never used, are they the
actual people who have been kept in cold sleep while they were replaced... 

Good stuff... give it a try.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com



------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 04:00:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Physics formulas

Quickie question:

Formula for distance displacement is 1/2 accelleration times time in
seconds squared - correct?

  IF correct, and each gameturn is 30 minutes, then each gameturn is 1,800
seconds.  If 1 G accelleration is equal to 9.8 meters per second per
second, and we want to determine how far a ship has travelled in 30
minutes, the plug ins for the formula would be:

Distance in Kilometers is equal to (.5*9.8*1,800^2)/1000 correct?

If so, the numbers work out to be 15,876 Km.  If that is the case, why are
the hexes measured in 1/10ths of a light second (approximately 30,000
Km)?

  In looking at MAYDAY, the game states that short range for High Guard
combat is 5 hexes, and long range is at 15 hexs, where anything beyond 15
hexes cannot be hit.
  Now in MAYDAY, the rules are such that 1 turn is 100 minutes, and hex
distance is approximately 1 light second (or 300,000 Km).  And yet, using
the formula above, I wind up getting the distance for a 1 G accelleration
to be 176,400 Km (or roughly .58 light seconds in distance).
  In short, all of the distances per turn seem to be magnified by a factor
of two.  What gives?

Hal


------------------------------

From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:16:41 +0300
Subject: Re:  Hull values

Hal Carmer wrote:
>
> I have been trying to discover the formula used for creating the hulls
> in QSDS and in T4.  As yet, I am unable to do so.
>
        A while ago I wrote an Excel 5 spreadsheet for calculating
        starship hulls, sensors, etc. The spreadsheet is very ugly,
        and written without any planning, but at least it appears
        to produce FFS/QSDS compatible values.

        The spreadsheet can be found at:

        http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen/Traveller/

        and its name is "starship.zip". All values in spreadsheet 
        which are displayed at bold font are intended for user input.


        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #457
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Traveller-digest         Friday, 27 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 458

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Computer Models
         2. Re: How long does it take to vent to vacuum?
         3. Re: Inspirational reading : SciFi
         4. Re: Gauss
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446
         6. Re: Nice PC's, HMS Sheffield, Imperial Credit Card
         7. Re: explosive decompression
         8. Re: Firearms and Ammo Question
         9. New T4 Armor Tables for Combat
        10. Re: Computer Models 
        11. Re: Cybertech (Was Re: Computer Models) 
        12. Re: jack on this.
        13. Re: Exploding bodies in vacuum
        14. "Cybernetic" characters (was Re: Computer Models) 
        15. Re:  RPSC: Impressions from my first use of it

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 19:38:16 PST
Subject: Re: Computer Models

In mail you write:

> </lurk>
>
> Hi all.  I have a question about computer model numbers, the answer to
> which I find inobvious from the MT/T4 rules.
>
> With regards to computers, what the heck is a /bis model.  I'm familiar
> with the term used in conjunction with modems (from the French word
> meaning 'like', indicating that a modem is compatible with a standard,
> i.e. v.32bis).

nope. It's from the Latin or Greek "bis" meaning "two". In both
Traveller and modem standards it's used to indicate a revised model
with enhanced capabilities.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 00:01:08 PST
Subject: Re: How long does it take to vent to vacuum?

In mail you write:

> Okay, okay, so I goofed: The air would leave slower as the pressure
> dropped.  I'm just a lowly arts major!  I still think my method probably
> gives a good quick ballpark figure.  Could some engineering type help us
> out with the skinny here?  C'mon Leonard, I know you're out there and
> dying to write an essay on this complete with incomprehensible fluid
> dynamics formulas :-) .

I've been waiting for someone else to answer, since that's one of the
things *I* never got a good answer to. I will say that the velocity
will be more like the average molecular velocity. 

I could probably figure it out except I don't have my reference books
(I *hate* having all that stuff in storage, but I can't afford the time
to sort thru the boxes and find the right ones.)

All I know about gas behavior is the PV=nRT which if I recall correctly
is something like P=pressure, V=volume, R=energy, T=temperature, and
n=some constant.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 00:09:41 PST
Subject: Re: Inspirational reading : SciFi

In mail you write:

> Cherryh, C.J.  "Cyteen" Parts I-III, "Downbelow Station", "Heavy Time"

Cyteen isn't terribly Traveller. But "Merchanter's Luck" (and a lot of
the other Union/Aliance stories), the Chanur series, and a few others
*are*.

Oh yeah, a great Gordon Dickson story that has low tech (slightly
better than current) folks dealing with high tech (TL 16+) is Wolfling.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 01:10:47 PST
Subject: Re: Gauss

In mail you write:

> 3000m/sec would almost be overkill against personal armor; not to mention
> what happens when it hits bone...

At that speed, unless it is a AP round, it won't *matter* if it hits
flesh or bone. Take a good look at what a .223 caliber "varmint round"
does at 3000-5000 *feet* per second. Small animals like crows, gophers,
maybe even rabbits turn into a cloud of grease. Watermelons turn into
mush. 

And with an AP round you'll *still* get nasty wound because of the
shock wave as it goes thru. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 00:34:28 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446

In mail you write:

> There will be market for second-hand starship bits, but I don't think 
> you'll see many 'starship graveyards'.

Yes and no. The Navy has huge "mothball fleets" on the off chance that
they might need the ships again. That's where the Iowa and New Jersey
had been sitting since the Korean War. Eventually, they decide that
ships are *too* obsolete and they scrap them.

Merchant vessels tend to get used until they are not economical, then
either sold to somebody how thinks they can make a go of it, or sold
for scrap. 

We used to have vessels getting scrapped regularly here until the
salvage outfit (Ziedel's) had a fire that burned their dock to the
waterline. They still salvage some stuff, but not as much as before.

Unlike cars, ships have large enogh chunks of steel for it to be worth
your while to cut them up. Beams and plates of reasonable size get
stack up out in the "yard" for buyers. Ones of odd shapes and sizes get
sold as scrap to a steel mill (you get a lot less for a ton of scrap
steel than you get for a ton of 1 inch plate, even *used* plate!). 

And the various fitting get piled up to be sold to folks who need them.

That's what will happen to ships that aren't worth repairing. But
functional ships will be in use *somewhere*, or they *may* be sitting
in a yard waiting for a buyer if the areas where they'd be economical
are too far off.

You *could* have some "dead" ships there if the market is such that
scrapping them for parts isn't worth the effort. One *big* gfactor in
favor of this is the fact that unlike on the ground, stirage space in
orbit is essentially "free". You park the ships in a high orbit (so you
don't need to worry about orbital decay for a century or two. Tie them
together loosely with cables, and hang a radar beacon onto the mess.
Since orbital installations will be common, you *won't* be in any of
the "prime" locations, such as synchronous orbit. But you'll be
reachable without too much trouble (maybe an hour or so in a low power
shuttle). 

If the system is busy enough, there'll be an office there (or if the
owner is poor enough to live "on premises" :-)

BTW, another argument in favor of the graveyard setup is the way
airliners are treated. They wind up in "graveyards" too. Mostly to be
stripped, sometimes you'll have someone buy a "dead" airplane just to
get the rights to the airframe registration number (you'd be amazed
what an airframe and powerplant certified mechanic can sign off on as a
"modification". :-)


It's quite possible that players could manage to find a restorable ship
that was *centuries* old in one of these places. If they get lucky,
they can restore it, and upgrade a few of the more important systems.
Picture a Space Shuttle with the power system replaced by a small
fusion plant and a few other upgrades operating as a in-system cargo
craft. The owner *could* land it, but he doesn't dare except in an
emergency, because he couldn't afford the CG unit it'd take to be able
to launch on it's own. He can't afford to replace the external tank
he'd have to jettison either.

Hmmm. Anybody got specs for the Shuttle online? I'm feeling tempted... :-)

Anyway, *that* would open the eyes of some players. Or take some ship
from an old SF story and do something similar. It's old, it's obsolete,
but somebody got a good deal on it and managed to scrounge enough stuff
to get it working. Remember my post a few months back about the Free
Trader with a NERVA manuever drive and a nuclear reactor to power the
rest of the ship? This sort of thing *will* be out there.

And while these ships might be easy prey for pirates, most of the time
they aren't carrying anything worth the trouble of hijacking, and they
pirates will be able to take one look and *know* that the ship can't be
sold for enough to cover ammo costs. So they mostly won't get attacked.
(Besides, with no thrusters, no CG or artifical gravity, and no Heplar
exhaust, they'll be a lot less likely to be detected).

These are the "banana boats" and "copra freighters" of the Imperium.
Carrying low profit, low priority cargoes they'll boost into orbit,
then make a *burn* to aim for the jump point and *coast*. So they're in
free fall? They're used to it and the cargo doesn't care.

Heck, given the low priority nature of bulk cargo, some of these could
even be the huge bulk carriers that folks keep wondering about. Why
waste the energy on that sort of cargo? Why bother butting new ships on
such runs except to handle more cargo, and replace ships that can't be
repaired anymore. Check out how long sail powered vessels with steel
hulls were in use after the steam engine came into general use. You'll
be surprized. Only reason that they *still* aren't being used is that
they didn't scale up very well. Spacecraft, especially those designed
to stay in space, don't have that problem. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 02:36:26 PST
Subject: Re: Nice PC's, HMS Sheffield, Imperial Credit Card

In mail you write:

> Hmm. I still think that the PC's are meant to be "heroes". I don't want to
> set them up for a "Die Hard" scenario and have it turn out as "Die Quickly".
> What's the point? I have seen scenarios where a (badly wounded) high-level
> AD&D fighter made the decision to jump from a 200-ft cliff rather than face
> the 20 stone giants coming for him - he survived, but just barely. No, I
> *don't* want the same thing happening in Trav, I want it to be more
> realistic - but it is still a *game*, and people are there to have *fun*!
> The system needs to be "realistically playable", if you see what I mean.

Do realize that surviving a 200 foot jump is *not* as ridiculous as it
sounds. The news media made a big thing of the guy in Florida who
screwed up a parachute jump and dropped that far and was able to *walk
away*. There are a lot of other instances on record. It's not something
you want to count on, but as long as you aren't heading for hard flat
ground, there's a chance.

They guy in florida hit some trees. In another case, the guy hit
snowdrifts on a *slope*, and one guy in WWII just hit a slope with
brush and lots of loose gravel. He broke a few things, but was able to
hobble away.

Unlikely? Yup. But given the choice between those big uglies and a
stream (maybe shallow, maybe not) or some trees, the unlikely starts
looking a whole lot better than the certainty of getting munched.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 02:58:21 PST
Subject: Re: explosive decompression

In mail you write:

> As I understand it, ones lungs are not the only things that are 
> contained  within the body by the surrounding atmospheric pressure. Our 
> bodies are unique in the since that the muscles are tuned to hold our 
> organs etc together under the pressure of earth atmosphere, just as our 
> muscles are tuned to be able hold ourselves erect under the pull of 
> earth gravity.

*Major* false assumption here. The pressure inside and outside our
bodies is the *same*. So our muscles have nothing to resist!

> Put a human body in a different pressure or gravitational 
> environment and we don't simply adjust. For example, when one gets into 
> heated pool one immediately feels the pressure of the heated water 
> around our bodies pressing on our abdomen. Suppose there was no pressure 
> at all surrounding our bodies, the pressure inside our abdomenal cavity 
> and inside our skull, and inside our heart would be significantly 
> greater than the zero pressure outside our bodies. Since our bodies, as 
> I have said, are not designed to contain such a pressure difference, 
> something has to give. If the pressure change is instantaneous the 
> effect is more dramatic. 

Not *that* dramatic. You forget that the skin is rather hard to
rupture, so pressure gets lost thru the more convenient openings.

> Even more gradual changes in pressure can be dangerous. When diving 
> crews move from depths underwater to the surface they have to make a 
> gradual adjustment to the pressure difference in a decompression 
> chamber. If they rush this process it would result in the conditions 
> mentioned by a previous post on this list, to which I am responding. But 
> that is an adjust from a situation where the outside pressure is greater 
> than the internal pressure to a normal situation. The body is never in 
> the dangerous position of having less than normal pressure outside the 
> body.

Wrong again. When a scuba diver goes down, his internal pressure adjust
to the external pressure. They come up slowly to allow the pressures to
equalize as they come back up. Mostly to allow dissolved gasses time to
get exchanged in the lungs instead of forming bubbles in the blood. 

A diver who panics on the way up and holds his breath will rupture his
lungs, but not show much other obvious damage. A closer look will show
things like gas bubbles under the skin, but that comes later.

> I hope I have made it clear enough for people that getting bullet holes 
> in ones suit in a decompressed environment is pretty much the ball-game 
> unless one is able to patch it quickly.

Sorry, wrong answer. Check the sci.space faq or the item that has been
posted to the lists several times regarding the shuttle astronaut who
punctured his suit AND DIDN'T KNOW IT! The skin on his hand acted as a
patch for the hole in his glove and they only realived it later.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 03:21:31 PST
Subject: Re: Firearms and Ammo Question

In mail you write:

> I'm a complete greenbean when it comes to firearms, so as I was reading the 
> thread on Gauss weapons, I had a question:
>
> What is the significance in measuring/comparing the various speeds of a 
> projectile?  

Simple. The damage done by a projectile depends on both the mass *and*
on the velocity. At the same speed a heavier projectile does more
damage. Twice as heavy, twice as much (roughly). And for two
projectiles of the same mass, the faster one does more damage. Twice as
fast, roughly *four* times as much damage (you square the velocity).

I say "roughly" above because the interactions between a bullet and
what it hits are *very* complex. It's a field known as "terminal
ballistics". 

Oh yeah, the recoil, or "kick" also depends on mass & velocity, but
both are linear effects (ie twice the mass twice the kick, twice the
velocity twice the kick). 

So a higher velocity is definitely desirable.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:16:28 -0400
Subject: New T4 Armor Tables for Combat

T4's armor tables are somewhat lacking.  To fill in the missing pieces,
Glenn Grant (pawn@CAM.ORG) spear-headed an effort to create Armor Tables
that T4 referees could use during combat.  The armor pages can be found at:

  http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss/t4/armor.htm

Feedback is requested!  You can provide feedback to me at:

  jpg@langley.mitre.org

and I'll consolidate it and pass it on to the others.  Work is beginning on
providing a similar Weapons Table as well as a more comprehensive Equipment
Table.  If there is anything you'd like to see on these tables (especially
from previous versions of Traveller), please send email to the address above.

Thanks,

  James Garriss          |  Counter Genocide
  jpg@langley.mitre.org  |  A Traveller Story in Progress
                         |  http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss/

------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:50:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Computer Models 

Michael Koehne wrote:

	"Ok I think we have a funny group (currently without ship)

	Lutz	Takeda  - Human   - Captain and Ship owner
	Eike	Nadine  - Human   - Stuard, Broker, Electronics
	Alex	Howl    - Vrage   - Chief and Security
	Serge	Galileo - tl-f/fb - Fire Control and Astrogation
	Benkt	Nasti   - tl-c    - Enginiering"

Confession time: Though I have played RPGs for many years, I haven't
*played* Traveller, just read a lot of their material.  But not enough.
What do "Vrage," "tl-f/fb," and "tl-c" mean?  I'd suppose "Vrage" is 
an alien race (related to Vargr?) and the "tl's" are AIs, but that's
just supposition and I have no details.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:05:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Cybertech (Was Re: Computer Models) 

John Snead wrote:
 "If you can jack in a chip and have Gun or Air Raft skill of 8 + Dex
  everyone will want one.  However, if it only makes things like History and
  Linguistics better then lots of folks won't bother. 

 "Comments?"

I agree that neural interfaces are a lot likelier than jump drives --
after all, we have *some* neural interface today -- and I realize we 
are dealing with fantasy future-tech, but it always struck me that 
ANY enhancement of skill by cyber-implant is a HELL of a lot trickier 
than replacing or backing-up sense organs or limbs.

After all, the human brain does have "ports" for limbs and sensors, 
but there is no anatomical equivalent to slots for more memory boards 
or auxilliary processors.  And human brains don't have skills loaded 
in like software; so far as we can now tell, a skill or a memory is 
GROWN in the brain by new or modified neural connections; it's our 
"hardware" that "re-writes" itself when we learn, not the "software."

Which means that, to me, replacement eyes, radar eyes, IR eyes, replacement
arms, driving a car or flying a ship by neural jack, internal media 
hookup, and things like that all sound a lot easier than loading in 
new skills or memories.

I wouldn't forbid the more intellectual cyberwear from an SF universe, 
but I'd introduce the sensory-motor cyberwear much earlier in the 
history, and therefore make it much more reliable, available in a wider
range of prices and functions, with side-effects much better known, sooner.

Also, I think there's a lot to the objection just posted that people don't
like gouging their eyes out and cutting their arms off, even for upgrades.
As cyberwear becomes a mature technology, I'd expect to see some kind of 
non-surgical interface.  You just slip on the visor or the man-amp suit, 
and hey-presto, it reaches into your nervous system with clever, non-
invasive EM fields or something and becomes your new organ until you take 
it off.

Granted, this might take some getting used to.  It takes some practice 
to drive a car, too.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: lawrence marz <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:28:22 +0000
Subject: Re: jack on this.

Simon John Harding wrote:
> If cybernetics are to be included in a Traveller game there would have
> to be some house rules developed to recognise the equivalent of loss of
> Empathy (Cyberpunk) or Essence (Shadowrun) that occurs with the addition
> of items of cyberware. In my Traveller environment, both cybernetics and
> psionics are considered of an alien nature and are considered to be
> extremely condusive to a low ability to empathise with fellow human
> beings. Only cybernetic devices of a critical medical nature are freely
> available.

The problem with cybernetics is this....
Take a picture of the Grand Canyon, and look at it
Does it convey the awesome landscape?
No, it is just a picture
And that is the dehumanizing aspect of cyberware, remember your eyes are not just a 
body part, they are modified nerves (ie they are an actual part of your nervous system, 
ergo part of your brain (actually the brain is part of the nervous system , not the other 
way but bear with me)) Your natural parts are both software and hardware. Every scar 
on your hand is a memory, there would be no such memories with cyber parts
Natural organs and limbs are shaped and designed by evolution to fit you, cyber has to 
be fitted. 
As for voluntarily hacking off a limb to replace it with the Tin Man's, that is ridiculous
Unless there was major screwing with the human psyche, losing a limb requires years of 
therapy, especially if you get an artificial one.

------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:22:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Exploding bodies in vacuum

> From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
> Subject: The Myth of Exploding Bodies
> 
> >The pressurised contents of the occupants body would soon cause the body 
> >to explode.
> 
> Contrary to many "SF" movies, and even more books, bodies don't explode under
> a mere 1 atmosphere of pressure differential.  Open your mouth, keep
> screaming (to empty your lungs), and don't hold back any farts, and reach an
> air supply within 10-40 seconds (depending on your lysical condition).  Oh
> yes, and close your eyes to prevent them freezing open.

As a comparison, if you'd like to feel your body implode
from having 2 atm of pressure on it instead of one, go sit under
about 20 feet of water. I, like many other people, have personally
withstood 5 or so atm of pressure on a "deep dive". Real commercial
and professional divers have withstood much, much more. If you can
withstand 10 extra atm of pressure, one atm less shouldn't be a big deal.
 
> From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
> Subject: Re: explosive decompression
> 
<deletia>
> environment and we don't simply adjust. For example, when one gets into 
> heated pool one immediately feels the pressure of the heated water 
> around our bodies pressing on our abdomen. Suppose there was no pressure 
> at all surrounding our bodies, the pressure inside our abdomenal cavity 
> and inside our skull, and inside our heart would be significantly 
> greater than the zero pressure outside our bodies. Since our bodies, as 
> I have said, are not designed to contain such a pressure difference, 
> something has to give. If the pressure change is instantaneous the 
> effect is more dramatic. 
> Even more gradual changes in pressure can be dangerous. When diving 
> crews move from depths underwater to the surface they have to make a 
> gradual adjustment to the pressure difference in a decompression 
> chamber. If they rush this process it would result in the conditions 
> mentioned by a previous post on this list, to which I am responding. But 
> that is an adjust from a situation where the outside pressure is greater 
> than the internal pressure to a normal situation. The body is never in 
> the dangerous position of having less than normal pressure outside the 
> body.

The only reason that divers have to descend and ascend slowly is due
to gas solubility being different at different pressures - in higher
pressures, more nitrogen can dissolve in your blood, so if you ascend too
fast, you'll end up with bubbles of N2 in your blood forming, which
would be bad. If you only go to a 1 atm difference though (~20 feet I think)
you won't notice the problem. The most likely problem with decompression
would be sinuses, ear drums, those tender bits.


> I hope I have made it clear enough for people that getting bullet holes 
> in ones suit in a decompressed environment is pretty much the ball-game 
> unless one is able to patch it quickly.


Mostly due to the fact that they'd have nothing to breathe about
30 sec. after the hold formed, not because their heads would explode.

EThan

> From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
> Subject: Re: Inspirational reading : SciFi
> 
> 	Stanislav Lem. e.g. "Solaris"

YES!  Lem's work is amazing, totally unlike any other author I've 
ever read. I read "Eden" just a little while ago - I liked
it so much I can hardly describe it. :)



------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:30:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: "Cybernetic" characters (was Re: Computer Models) 

I did run an adventure once with a Robot character and an AI ship NPC.
The ship worked well, but the character did not.  This was probably due to
other factors, but I blame the player.

Robots have tremendous advantages in normal situations (i.e. reaction
speed, accuracy of senses, ability to 'load' skills instead of learning
them) that make them difficult to balance, and the usual disadvantages
(Extremely logical personality, behavior limitations, etc.) associated
with robots in traditional SF literature are very difficult to implement
or roleplay.

As an NPC, a ship with its own intelligence worked out better.  Since the
AI had its own agenda apart from the party's they didn't often agree, and  
eventually parted ways.  Who wants a ship, after all, that doesn't "jump"
when you call?

Pete


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 10:41:14 -0400
Subject: Re:  RPSC: Impressions from my first use of it

34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock) wrote:
> I ran a T4 adventure at our gaming club meeting tonight ("Rubicon Cross",
> actually) and we used RPSC 0.90 to resolve the space combat.

Great!

> The battle was extremely interesting; I am now a convert to the armor system
> used in RPSC.

While it's not realistic, it's easy, fun, and assists in player-character
survival.  ;-)

> However my players had one complaint. They would like to see
> the side that has the initiative get to CHOOSE whether they go first or
> last.

That makes a certain amount of sense, and doesn't break anything IMHO.
What do you think, Joe?

> Perhaps have both sides move simultaneously a hex at a time!

Maybe.  I can think of two ways of doing that:

1) The easy way:
The side with initiative selects which ship (any of their own, or any of
their opponents) will move first.  That ship moves, and (optionally) expends
MP.  The other side (from the ship that moved first) selects one of their
own ships, and it moves (one hex, with optional MP expenditure).  The two
sides alternate moving ships until all ships have moved one hex, at which
point the whole procedure begins again for the second hex of movement.

Note that if one side has more ships than the other, that side will move
the "extras" after the other side has moved all of it's ships.  Similarly,
the fastest ships will continue moving after the slower ships have moved
all of their hexes.

This isn't realistic, but it works - it's easy to explain, and it's not
_too_ slow, particularly if there's only a handful of ships on the board.

2) Phased movement:
This is complicated (maybe too complicated for RPCS), but it's actually
faster than the easy way, as long as all the ships have their own pilots to
move them.

During movement, the referee calls out the phase number.  Ships which move
that phase take their movement, and expend any MP desired.   Gunners call
fire, and it is resolved in the order called out, before the referee
announces the next phase.

Ships moving at speed 9 or less move one hex on the indicated phases.  Ships
moving at speed 10 (exactly) move 1 hex every phase.  Ships moving faster
than speed 10 subtract 10 from their speed: they move one hex every phase,
and two hexes on the indicated phases.

Here's the phase chart:

Phase #	1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10

Speed 1                            X
      2             X              X
      3          X        X        X
      4       X     X        X     X
      5    X     X     X     X     X
      6    X  X     X     X  X     X
      7    X  X  X     X  X  X     X
      8    X  X  X  X  X  X  X     X
      9    X  X  X  X  X  X  X  X  X
     10 X  X  X  X  X  X  X  X  X  X
     


> I'm running Traveller again Friday night; I'll test this
> idea and get back to you with it.

Please!  :-)

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Friday, 27 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 459

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Computer Models
         2. Vacuuming a starship -- errata
         3. [Fwd: Laser Rifles]
         4. Re: Cybertech (Was Re: Computer Models)
         5. Re: Spreadsheet-release
         6. Re: "Cybernetic" characters (was Re: Computer Models) 
         7. Re:  Physics formulas
         8. Re: Firearms and Ammo Question
         9. Re: Firearms and Ammo Question 
        10. Scenario: Water for the desert

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:05:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Computer Models

On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, John R. Snead wrote:

> Peter  H. Brenton <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> >Most citizens of Glisten (TL 15, Asteroid world) have a "Jack" for
> >accomplishing routine tasks that can interupt the connection from the
> >brain to the senses and body and substitute "virtual" experiences and
> >perceptions.
> Where do you get this from?

Well, William Gibson is usually credited with the "Cyberpunk" movement
which uses the idea of Virtual Reality as provided by sight and sound
inputs via video and audio inputs.  I think the Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0. rules
book takes the next step I mentioned above (connecting directly to the
brain, that is) but I'm sure someone else had thought of it first.  It's
been a theme in Science Fiction since at least the 70s (more and more I
have discovered that what I thought was a "new" idea has been published
in, like, 1850 or something).

There are no traveller materials (that I have found) which deal with this
subject in any detail.

> 
> <snip>
> >Let me know if there is any interest in expanding on these rules.
> >Pete
> 
> Yes, very much so!  If you have such rules please post them or email them 
> to me.
> 

The rules I am preparing are for using the NetRunner Collectable Card Game
(CCG) and the Cyberpunk 2020 materials for GMing computer intrusion tasks
in a quick and interesting fashion.

I recommend getting the Cyberpunk 2020 Rules Book (damn, I'm starting to
feel like they should giv me a sales commission). This provides basic
information on the netrunner type, equipment, programs, cybernetic
implants (some of which are silly) and the design of the 'Net in general.

For our purposes we could come up with some ideas that would implement
cybernetic enhancements in characters.  I do not feel that there is any
need for a "humanity factor" such as another poster suggested, which
balances enhancements with a loss of "humaness" and social stigma.  On the
other hand, I see no reason not to harass characters with substantial
implants when they try to pass through starport weapon detectors.

I'll compose some stuff off-line for surgical electronic organ
replacements and post it here after the weekend.

Pete 


------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:06:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Vacuuming a starship -- errata

Hi, this is Rob.

I posted two formulae for decompression to the TML yesterday.
The first formula,  P(t) = P0 * exp(-t * u*A/V ), is right I think,
given all the caveats I mentioned in my initial post. The second one was
wrong, however. This was pointed out to me by Gerald S. Williams:

>From:	IN%"gsw@aloft.micro.lucent.com"  "Gerald S. Williams" 27-SEP-1996 07:58:53.29
>To:	IN%"FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu"  "'Robert Flammang'", IN%"'\straveller@mpgn.com\s'@vms.cis.pitt.edu", IN%"traveller@mpgn.com"
>CC:	IN%"traveller-request@mpgn.com"  "'traveller-request@mpgn.com'"
>Subj:	RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #456

>My last four or five posts never made it to the list. Hopefully this
>one will.

	Try mailing to "traveller@mpgn.com" instead of
"traveller-request".

>Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
>> P(t) = P0 * exp(-t * u*A/V )
> [ ... ]
>> Half life (in seconds) = 0.7 * u * A / V

>I didn't verify the first formula, but the second is definately
>wrong, since a smaller hole makes the air leak out faster. Try
>"0.7 / ( u * A / V )". Better yet, just assume breatheable air
>(u=500), and the formula becomes: "0.0014 / (A/V)". If you
>express the ratio of the hole area to the total volume (A/V) as
>a percent (I know the units aren't the same), then you get the
>much easier-to-remember "0.14s / (%A/V)".

	You are quite right, my "*" should have been a "/" (with
appropriate parentheses). Thanks for the help!

>Thus, for a ship with a volume of 1000 m3 and a 0.5m diameter
>hole (0.2 m2), %A/V is 0.02 and the "half-life" of the air is
>7s. I think you would need to keep the air above 1/4 original
>pressure to remain breatheable. It would be more realistic to
>treat each compartment individually, but probably not worth it
>(you would have to compute pressure differences at each hatch).

	You are absolutely right on both counts. These pressure
differentials are what I referred to as impedence in my origianl post.
In addition there will be turbulence (unless it's a very small hole)
and temperature drop. These will tend to make the "half life"
longer than what's calculated. I have no idea how much longer, tho 8^(.


>-O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
>-O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
>-O (610)712-3370 /       Allentown, PA  18103-6209      O-
>-O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


	On another (but similar) note...

	Simon John Harding asked:

>From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
>Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:56:30 +1300
>Subject: Re: Formula Heaven
>> 
>> P(t) = P0 * exp(-t * u*A/V )
>> 
>Fantastic!
>What is P measured in? and can you make up a formula for the thrust 
>generated by sucha vent? 
>Please Please

P(t) is measured in whatever units P0 is measured in. If you measure
P0 in atmospheres, the answer you get for P(t) is in atmospheres. If
it's in pounds per square inch, the answer is in pounds per square inch.

u is about 500m/s for breathable air.

To get the current thrust, multiply the current pressure by the area of
the hole. For instance, if the pressure of the ship is currently 10
pounds per square inch (reduced from atmosphere of 14 pounds per square
inch) and the area of the hole is 80" * 40" = 3200 sq. in., then the
thrust is  F = (10 lbs/sq. in.) * (3200 sq. in.) = 32,000 lbs. This will
cause a 32,000 pound ship's boat to lurch at one gee.

If you prefer metric (like I do), then multiply the pressure in pascals
(1 atmosphere equals about 100,000 pascals) by the area of the hole in
square meters, and you get the thrust in newtons (about 5 newtons in a
pound). This has the advantage that if you're using the formula I gave
above, you've already calculated the area in square meters (about 1,500
square inches in a square meter).

Hope this helps.
- -Rob


------------------------------

From: Glenn Patterson <farquar@intergate.bc.ca>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 06:07:33 -0700
Subject: [Fwd: Laser Rifles]

X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
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Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 07:08:19 -0700
From: Glenn Patterson <farquar@intergate.bc.ca>
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On page 73 of the rule book it states that "Then there is everyone else, 
with weapons powered by less advanced means, and limited to the mass they 
can carry with their natural strength."

>From the weapons table Page 80, it states that a Rifle, Laser has a mass 
of 20.0 kgs, and its reloads have a mass of 15.0 kgs.
If this is the case there isn't a character that would be able to lift or 
use these weapons. The most that your characters "strength" can be, 
initially is 12. This would make the combined mass of the rifle and 
reload to be about 3 times the charaters strength and would restrict the 
use of these weapons to characters with powered battlearmour only.

I believe that there is an error with the placement of the decimal point.
The weight of a modern day back-pack radio is about 5 kgs and the 
heaviest rifle/LMG is about 6 kgs. While this combination may still be 
more than some characters strength, it is not beyond reasonable.     

Thanks, GP






------------------------------

From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@Communique.se>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:30:44 +0200
Subject: Re: Cybertech (Was Re: Computer Models)

At 23:58 1996-09-26 -0700, John Snead wrote:

>If you can jack in a chip and have Gun or Air Raft skill of 8 + Dex
>everyone will want one.  However, if it only makes things like History and
>Linguistics better then lots of folks won't bother. 
>
>Comments?

	Hi John.
Perhaps you could have it like it is very misfit-like to use cybertech.
Perhaps only some companies spend money to enhance their employees. Perhaps
people sees them as misfits and because of it they give enhanced people a
cross eye. On some worlds it may even be seen as an insult of the worst
kind to even begin to alter themselves. Perhaps it may be illegal in some
worlds because of echo-criminals use the technology to rob people blind..

	So, in the long run it would even be dangerous to have cybertech.

		Try that on for size

	 %&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%
	% Name : Goran Sjoberg                   %
	& Email: NGC1201@Communique.se           &
	% Url  : Http://www.communique.se/goran  %
	%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%

------------------------------

From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@Communique.se>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:30:46 +0200
Subject: Re: Spreadsheet-release

At 19:20 1996-09-27 +0900, Armand wrote:

>I do not have Excel, but I have Works 4.0 for Win95.  I know Excel can save 
>in Works format, but many of the difficult formulae are lost, and Works does 
>not use Excel's "book" format.  The sheet is also corrupted when Works loads 
>an Excel sheet.  Would it be possible for you to simplify the formulae for 
>Works and make the sheets available in Works 4.0 format?  I'd really 
>appreciate it!!


	Don't worry about it. I do have works 4.0 too and it is great to hear that
i can be able to oblige you. Of course it will be a much simpler sheet and
you will have to feed the info from the tables in the FF&S manual, but it
will do the same as the excel stuff. I will get right on it and perhaps it
will be finished Sunday night and implemented onto my web page.

Http://www.communique.se/goran

	The reason i am doing this:
When i first got the traveller and Megatraveller RPG i choke on all those
formulaes i encountered. My first spaceship took me 8 days to manufacture
and i swore to find a better and faster way. 
	With the sheets i am proud to say you are down to perhaps 30 minutes max.
If i can do this for the rest of you as well, i will be just as happy as i
know you all will be. :)-

	Have a nice weekend.
		Goran Sjoberg 
			Signing off

------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:43:17 -0400
Subject: Re: "Cybernetic" characters (was Re: Computer Models) 

Our current (non-Traveller) game includes a robot PC.  He is hideously 
fast, but not all that strong.  He's very agile, but he might not 
have been, for the same reason he's not strong -- money.  He does 
have total recall, but the game is psi-heavy and he's lousy at that;
he can receive a telepathic contact, but he hasn't learned to initiate
them and, when he does, he will improve at the skill very slowly.

The issue of shoving in skill software has not come up, but if I were 
GM, I'd rule against it.  For an AI, I would rule, a data file is not 
(subjectively) like an installable memory but like a book or video -- 
a record external to your mind and self.  Similarly, a program is not 
a new skill you suddenly have, but a kind of tool you must learn to use.
In short, the AI's mind is not the whole computer but just the operating 
system.

I also don't let AIs migrate around the net.  The rationalization is 
that AI software is so huge, it is always found running on an amalgam 
of many processors in parallel -- so many that there are always lots 
of idiosyncracies in the local architecture that the AI adapts to 
as it "grows up."  The result is that it is not copyable or transportable.

Above all, AIs don't heal; they have to be repaired.

I would impose those strictures for game-balance, but I think they 
at least sound plausible.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 11:33:53 -0400
Subject: Re:  Physics formulas

Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net> wrote:
> Formula for distance displacement is 1/2 accelleration times time in
> seconds squared - correct?

Correct.

> Distance in Kilometers is equal to (.5*9.8*1,800^2)/1000 correct?

Correct.

> If so, the numbers work out to be 15,876 Km.  If that is the case, why are
> the hexes measured in 1/10ths of a light second (approximately 30,000 Km)?

Because the formula you cite gives the distance that the ship travels
_during the acelleration_.  That 15,876km is _NOT_ the distance the ship
will travel in the _next_ 1800 seconds, and every 1800 seconds thereafter
until it acellerates again.

The velocity change formula is: Velocity = Acelleration * Time.
SO, while the ship was acellerating, it changed it's velocity to 17.6km/sec.
The _next_ game turn, it will travel: Distance = Velocity * Time
or 31,752km.

Since ships spend most of their time coasting at a given speed, it's better
to choose a hex size that's related to the _VELOCITY_ a ship gains after a
turn of acelleration, than it is to size the hexes to the distance a ship
travels _during_ the acelleration.

It's a trade-off - the choices are:
1) Accept a half-hex error for every G of acelleration and deceleration
   used, or
2) Accept a one-hex error for every point of speed the ship has, or
3) Accept a complicated system where each G of acelleration changes the
   ship's speed by 2 hexes a turn, only one of which apply this turn.

I'll take #1; the error isn't large (compared to the hexes) and it
simplifies movement enough that you can do it on the gameboard.

>   Now in MAYDAY, the rules are such that 1 turn is 100 minutes, and hex
> distance is approximately 1 light second (or 300,000 Km).  And yet, using
> the formula above, I wind up getting the distance for a 1 G accelleration
> to be 176,400 Km (or roughly .58 light seconds in distance).

Same reason.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:54:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Firearms and Ammo Question

On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

> I'm a complete greenbean when it comes to firearms, so as I was reading the 
> thread on Gauss weapons, I had a question:
> 
> What is the significance in measuring/comparing the various speeds of a 
> projectile?  

   The velocity of the projectile is the biggest factor in determining the
projectile's energy. According to Newton:

ke = mv^2/2

   Where "ke" is the kinetic energy (the hitting force) of the projectile 
in Joules; "m" is the mass of the projectile in kilograms; "v" is the
velocity of the projectile in m/sec.

   Obviously (as it is an exponential factor) having a projectile at, say
for example, 10 grams and 3000 m/sec is MUCH better than having a
projectile at 20 grams and 1500 m/sec. (The former has 9e4 Joules, the
latter has 4.5e4 Joules)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:58:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Firearms and Ammo Question 

I wrote:
>   Obviously (as it is an exponential factor) having a projectile at, say
>for example, 10 grams and 3000 m/sec is MUCH better than having a
>projectile at 20 grams and 1500 m/sec. (The former has 9e4 Joules, the
>latter has 4.5e4 Joules)

  Oops! Forgot to divide by 2; these figures should be 4.5e4 and 2.25e4
respectively.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 18:28:26 +0000 ()
Subject: Scenario: Water for the desert

<h1>
	Water for the deserts
</h1>
<ul>
	<li><a href="#A0.Intro">A0.Intro</a>
	<li><a href="#A1.Events">A1.Events</a>
	<li><a href="#A2.Commerce">A2.Commerce</a>
	<li><a href="#A3.Lunion">A3.Lunion</a>
	<li>Characters
	<ul>
		<li><a href="#C1.Captain">C1.Captain</a>
		<li><a href="#C2.Chief">C2.Chief</a>
		<li><a href="#C3.Steward">C3.Steward</a>
		<li><a href="#P1.Passenger">P1.Passenger</a>
		<li><a href="#P2.Passenger">P2.Passenger</a>
		<li><a href="#P3.Passenger">P3.Passenger</a>
	</ul>
</ul>
	This scenario was first played at "14te Bremer Spielertage"
	at 22 Sep 96 in Oslebshausen Bremen Germany Terra Sol
	Solomani Rim.
<p>
	Many thanks to the people on TML exspecialy to :
<ul>
<li>	Timothy Collinson tc@library.solent.ac.uk for translation
<li>	Peter L. Berghold peterb@superlink.net for the bounty hunter
<li>	Michael.Barry Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
	for the Disciplines of the Bright Way.
<li>	Boyd Schneider HomeBoyd@msn.com for the Ianic idea (he really
	wanted to sell water ;-)
</ul>
<H3><A NAME="A0.Intro">A0.Intro</A></H3>
<h1>			Lunion Subsector 1083
</h1>

	This scenario is intendet for game Coconventions.  It
	should be played with the predefined characters.  It takes
	place in the Spinward Marches, subsector K - Lunion, not far
	from the border worlds.  Date: 1083.
<p>
	The scenario involves three crew and three passengers of the
	Windfall (a 40 year old, 200 ton Jayhawk far trader).  Various
	encounters and trading opportunites will lead them to Ianic
	where they may get involved in the first Jonkeereen rebellion.
	See "The Regency Sourcebook".
<p>
	The scenario can unfold in several different ways as each
	character has his or her own goals.  A lot of groups will not
	get to Ianic in the 4-6 hours of normal convention scenarios
	but they should at least arrive on Sharrip.
<p>
	Six players are required: 3 for the crew and 3 for the
	passengers.  Establish how old the players are and assign
	them appropriate characters.  Ten minutes will be needed
	for each of them for the briefing, the character
	description and the rules.
<p>
	Each PC should choose a name and fill in the right hand side of
	the character sheet with what they want to take on the trip.
<p>
	The bounty hunter has an Imperial Licence for a laser
	pistol and, of course, has his own weapon.  The captain
	could have weapons in the ship's locker and should decide
	what freight is being carried. Inform the captain that taking
	fertilisers to Ianic will bring 2kCr per displacement ton due
	to handling.  Inform the blind passenger to hide as long as
	she wants.
<p>
	You also need 2 tables, they should stand side by side,
	one for the passengers and one for the crew. So if a
	crew member (e.g. the stuard) wants to enter the
	passenger staterooms she should change the table,
	and vice versa.
<p>
	Start the scenario with the crew on board, and the passengers
	arriving.  Two scenes give the crew an opportunity to learn
	about ship combat rules. The first is a fat trader on a
	collision course. The second is a meteor storm while the
	referee should fake the wear value role of the thusters. 
	You should make all sensor rolls uncertain to make this
	interesting. 
<p>
	The *main* fight will be at Ianic against a
	Fast Courier.  The Ine Givar psionic will befuddle the sensor
	crew for two rounds (one hour) to make such a David and
	Goliath battle possible.
<p>
	At Ianic the players need to arrive on the planet quickly as there is
	also a Cruiser in the system.  The Jonkeereen will hide the
	Windfall underground so the players can help their
	revolution.  (Double Adventure 6: Night of Conquest can be
	used for this.)  They will also have to refuel at one of the
	gas giants and certainly have to leave the Imperium.
<p>
<H3><A NAME="A1.Events">A1.Events</A></H3>
<pre>

	Strouden      2327 A745988-D  N Hi In              920 Im

</pre>
	Strouden in one of the main worlds of the Lunion subsector,
	and has an excellent starport.  Ling Standard Products is
	building tech level 13 warships near the frontier with the
	border worlds.  The fast industrial growth caused an
	environmental disaster, so the atmosphere is now tainted and
	life is expensive here.
<pre>
	Sensors/Average : 1000T freighter - trade - arriving
	Astrogation/Average : he is on a collision course
</pre>
	As you leave Strouden, you see a 1000dt freighter crossing
	your intended course, you have to change course and
	recalculate jump. If you communicate with them, they won't
	answer.
<p>
<hr>
<pre>

	Sharrip       2325 C575101-A    Lo Ni              503 Im

	Arival:
	Sensors/Diffcult : Free Trader - Trade and Transport - to Capton
</pre>
	You see a 200t ship very far away leaving the system.
<p>
	Sharrip belongs to the Al Morrib Line.    Nobody lives on
	the surface as a deadly virus exists on the planet.
	The planet has an obital starport with a small crew of
	50 people.  Four of the crew are happy to be leaving for a
	vacation on Strouden, the rest start unpacking brand new
	equipment.
<pre>
	Departure :
	Ship.Eng/Easy: The thrusters get hot and need repair
	Sensors/Easy: One big meteor crossing flightpath
	Astrogation/Difficult: the metror will be 2 kms away
	Sensors/Difficult: it's not just one big one - its lots and
		lots of little ones!  
</pre>
	The referee should manage to fake the wear value roll of the
	thrusters so the ship can not maneuver.  PCs will need to
	destroy the meteors.  You should start your clock running and
	remember that lasers recycle every three minutes.  You should
	roll 2d6 for the number of small meteors that are *really* on
	a collision course.  Any of them need a difficult sensor roll
	to lock on to in the first 15 minutes and an average roll in
	the last 6 minutes.  Every meteor has a 10% chance of
	actually hitting the ship in a random location.  (Thus, the
	situation is not as dangerous as it should seem to the
	players).  Ensure that all sensor rolls are uncertain, e.g.
	by asking whether it is even or odd and rolling a hidden die.
	There should be only one sensor attempt per minute, leaving
	the players with a feeling of uncertainty, helplessness and
	fear.
<p>
<hr>
<pre>

	Lunion        2124 A995984-D  A Hi In Cp           810 Im

	        Arrival :
	Sensors/Easy :
	       : Free Trader - Trade and Transport - to Lunion
	         Seeker      - Busines               to Lunion
	         Scout       -                       orbiting
	         Patrol Cruiser                      orbiting
</pre>
	Lunion is the capital of subsector K of the Spinward Marches.
	Ling Standard is also building warships here.  Like
	Strouden, Lunion has a tainted atmosphere because of an
	environmental disaster. Two ships are orbiting and two others
	are arriving.  The captain will need to use communications and
	admin skills to avoid long orbit times.
<p>
	A lot of people on Lunion are talking about the civil war at
	Ianic, that Ianic has been declared a red zone and that it
	is forbidden to land there.
<p>
	The (illegal) freight to Ianic is quite normal, but the passengers
	are not.  They are Ine Givar trying to help the Jonkeereen
	rebellion with their psionic skills.
<p>
	Departure : If they plot a course to Ianic the patrol cruiser
	will follow, so they have to make a dangerous jump from 10
	diameters.
<p>
<hr>
<pre>
	Ianic         1924 E360697-5    Ni Ri De           924 Im

	        Arrival : Fast Courier - Quarantine  orbiting planet
	                  Two fighters - patrol      from AS2 to GG3
	                  Cruiser      - refuelling  orbiting GG3
</pre>
	Ianic has a normal atmosphere, but no water.  Normally the
	water is shipped by a modular cutter from the asteroid belts.
	 The warships have recently shot these down and are now
	blocking the planet's downport in the hope that the
	Jonkeereen capitulate.  The cargo bay full of water and
	fertiliser (which are really nuclear pumped x-ray warheads
	for planetary defence missiles), would certainly make the
	war more interesting.
<p>
	If they manage to break the blockade, (one of the Ine Givar
	will befuddle the sensor crew of the Fast Courier) the PCs
	will be heroes, but they will have to leave the Imperium.
<p>
	Probably 1822, 1721, 1522 is their best route to the border
	worlds.
<p>
<H3><A NAME="A2.Commerce">A2.Commerce</A></H3>
<pre>
	Windfall - Monthly payment calculation

	Credit rate         71 kCr per month
	Chief  salary        2 kCr per month
	Steward salary       1 kCr per month
	Maintenance          5 kCr per month
	Fuel                 2 kCr per jump
	Starport fees        1 kCr per jump
	Life Support (crew)  6 kCr per jump
	                            ------
	                            97 kCr per month

	Freight    max  57 kCr per jump (1 kCr per displacement ton)
	Passengers max  18 kCr per jump (5 kCr per middle passage
	                                -2 kCr for life support)

	        ---------------------------------------------------------

	Strouden      2327 A745988-D  N Hi In              920 Im

	Freight to  Sharrip :	18 t mg Entertainment Equip
	Freight to  Lunion :	16 t mg Aromatics
				11 t mg Clothing
				11 t pr Textiles
				13 t pr Petrochemicals
				13 t in Data Records
				15 t nr Raw Hydrocarbons
		                 2 Passengers
	Freight to  Ianic :	12 t pr Fertilisers (Fla,Exp)

	Cargo purchase 3

	---------------------------------------------------------

	Sharrip       2325 C575101-A    Lo Ni              503 Im

	Freight to  Lunion :     4 Passengers

	Cargo sale      7 (from Strouden)
	      purchase  7

	---------------------------------------------------------

	Lunion        2124 A995984-D  A Hi In Cp           810 Im

	Cargo sale      8 (from Strouden)
	                7 (from Sharrip)
	purchase  3

	NB: Ianic is a now a Red Zone world and official
	freight is not allowed, departures Spinwards are forbidden!

	Freight to  Ianic        5 t Precious Metal
	                         7 t Alcoholic Beverage
	                         5 t Biosamples (Fra, Per)
	Cargo to Ianic		10 t Natural Curiosities
				 6 Passengers

	---------------------------------------------------------

	Ianic         1924 E360697-5    Ni Ri De           924 Im

	Cargo sale      9 (from Lunion)
	                6 (from Sharrip)
	purchase 10
</pre>
<H3><A NAME="A3.Lunion">A3.Lunion</A></H3>
<pre>
	@SUB-SECTOR: Lunion    SECTOR: Spinward Marches
	#
	# Trade routes within the subsector
	$1824 1526 -1 0
	$1824 1924 0 0
	$1824 2124 0 0
	$2124 2323 0 0
	$2323 2324 0 0
	$2323 2621 1 0
	$2324 2726 1 0
	$2124 2125 0 0
	$2125 1826 0 0
	$2125 2327 0 0
	$1826 2327 0 0
	$2327 2228 0 0
	$2228 2231 0 1
	#
	#--------1---------2---------3---------4---------5---------6---
	#PlanetName   Loc. UPP Code   B   Notes         Z  PBG Al LRX *
	#----------   ---- ---------  - --------------- -  --- -- --- -
	Arba          1721 C200200-C    Lo Ni Va           610 Im
	Wardn         1727 B756486-B  S Ni              A  502 Im
	Olympia       1728 C328342-7    Lo Ni              120 Im
	Smoug         1729 C14078A-9    Po De              902 Im
	Rabwhar       1822 D5448BA-6  S                    313 Im
	Adabicci      1824 A57189B-B  N                    801 Im
	Zaibon        1825 B000544-B    Ni As              512 Im
	Tenalphi      1826 A774102-E    Lo Ni              610 Im
	Ianic         1924 E360697-5    Ni Ri De           924 Im
	Spirelle      1927 C766846-8  S D1 Ri              715 Im
	Derchon       2024 C512799-8  S Na Ic              901 Im
	Lunion        2124 A995984-D  A Hi In Cp           810 Im
	Shirene       2125 B984510-B  S Ag Ni           A  901 Im
	Penkwar       2128 X978310-1    Lo Ni           R  320 Im
	Harvosette    2129 C330737-9    Na Po De           910 Im
	Carse         2224 C463325-9    Lo Ni              601 Im
	Persephone    2228 B775833-A  W                    922 Im     m
	Quiru         2321 B365300-8    Lo Ni              323 Im
	Gorram        2322 X554220-0    Lo Ni           R  801 Im
	Resten        2323 B310100-B  S Lo Ni              501 Im
	Capon         2324 B747748-A  N Ag                 610 Im     m
	Sharrip       2325 C575101-A    Lo Ni              503 Im
	Strouden      2327 A745988-D  N Hi In              920 Im
	Gandr         2425 E000347-8    Lo Ni As           813 Im
	Drolraw       2426 EAB6311-5    Lo Ni Fl           904 Im
</pre>
<H3><A NAME="C1.Captain">C1.Captain</A></H3>
<h1>
	Captain - male 25
</h1>
	Two weeks ago you purchased the Windfall.  As it is known
	that a Jayhawk will not operate on the usual 1kCr per
	displacement ton, you are searching for a good trade route
	and found Ianic, a non-industrial, rich, desert planet with a
	population of nearly 9 million.  Water will fetch a price of
	10kCr per ton.
	So it would be possible to pay for the Windfall (57 dt cargo
	hold) in just a few months.
<p>
<pre>
	Flight plan :

	Strouden      2327 A745988-D  N Hi In              920 Im
	Sharrip       2325 C575101-A    Lo Ni              503 Im
	Lunion        2124 A995984-D  A Hi In Cp           810 Im
	Ianic         1924 E360697-5    Ni Ri De           924 Im
</pre>
	To keep your finances in the black, you hare hoping for
	passengers and have refitted the staterooms and the bridge
	section.
<p>
	You were lucky with the crew.  As a stewardess you hired a
	medical school graduate.  She is young and agreed to a crew salary.
	The chief is an old hand, took a quick look at the ship and said:
	"OK, I'll get this beast flying."
<p>
<pre>
	13 A66898-C
	   Hobbies : Acrobatics 2, Archery 2, Piloting IG 2,
	     Streetwise 2
	17 A76798-C
	   Flight Academy : Piloting IG, Space Vessels 4, Leadership 2,
	     Gun Combat, Spacehands, Spacetech 2, Technican 2, Explore
	21 A76798-C
	   Wealthy Traveller : Determination, Perception, Economics,
	     Charm, Interaction, Explore, Animal Handling
	
	25 A76798-B : Captain

	Str A + Slug Rifle	1 = B
	        Archery         2 = C
	Agl 7 + Acrobatics	2 = 9
		Piloting IG	3 = A
	Con 6 + Env. Suite	1 = 7
		Riding		1 = 7
	Int 7 + Streetwise	3 = A
		Astrogation	1 = 8
		Sensors		2 = 9
		Survey		1 = 8
		Psychology 	1 = 8
	Edu 9 + Ship's Eng.	1 = A
		Ship's Laser	1 = A
		Communications	1 = A
		Computer	1 = A
		Admin/Legal	1 = A
	Chr 8 + Leadership	2 = A
		Liason		2 = A
		Recruting	1 = 9
		Persuasion	1 = 9
</pre>
<H3><A NAME="C2.Chief">C2.Chief</A></H3>
<h1>
	Chief - male 33
</h1>
	You have been hired on whilst on Strouden and are happy that
	the captain only asked about technical things.
	He seems to be a bit green.  The Windfall is not a wreck but
	it's not far off one.  The power plant has a wear value of
	at least 4 and the thrusters, jump drive and contra-grav are not
	looking much better.  The bridge section and passenger
	staterooms were refitted recently, but the rest of the 40
	year old Jayhawk needs a lot of rust chipping.
<p>
<pre>
	13 665676-5
	   Hobbies : Unarmed MA 2, Armed MA 2, Swimming 2,
	      Disguise 2
	17 775676-5
	   Corsair : Spacehand 1, Gun Combat 2, Technican 2,
	      Space Tech 1, Interaction 1, Vice 1
	21 775676-4
	   Corsair : Spacehand 1, Melee, Gun Combat 1, Technican 1,
	      Space Tech 1, Interaction 1, Vice 1, Charm 1
	25 775676-3
	   Corsair : Spacehand 1, Technician 1, Space vessel 1, Charm 1
	29 775676-2
	   Prisoner: Economics 2, Crime 1, Vice 1, Str +1, Edu +1

	33 874686-3 : Chief

	Str 8 + Unarmed MA    3 = B
	        Armed MA      2 = A
	        Laser Rifle   2 = A
	Agl 7 + Laser Pistol  1 = 8
	Con 5 + Swimming      2 = 7
	        Vacc Suit     2 = 7
	        Z-G Env.      1 = 6
	Int 6 + Sensors       2 = 7
	        Gambling      1 = 7
	        Streetwise    2 = 7
	Edu 8 + Computer      1 = 9
	        Electronics   1 = 9
	        Machinist     1 = 9
	        Ship's Eng.   1 = 9
	        Ship's Laser  2 = A
	Chr 6 + Disguise      2 = 8
	        Interrogation 1 = 7
	        Recruiting    2 = 8
	        Bribery       1 = 7
	        Admin/Legal   1 = 7
	        Marketing     1 = 7
	        Instruction   1 = 7
</pre>
<H3><A NAME="C3.Steward">C3.Steward</A></H3>
<h1>
	Steward - female 25
</h1>
	Strouden is a nasty planet.  Ling Standard is building ships
	here and caused an environmental disaster.   Now 9 million
	people are suffering as a result.  Leaving has been your
	dream for as long as you can remember.  You went to school
	and have now been hired on as crew on a far trader.  The
	captain is the same age as you but comes from a noble family.
	You have caught a glimpse of the chief engineer, a man in his
	mid-thirties who looks very tough.
<p>
<pre>
	14 376858-6
	   Hobbies: Acrobatics 2, Persuasion 2, Music 2, Streetwise 2

	17 386858-6
	   Undergrad : Biology 1, Chemistry 1, Xeno-Biology 1, Computer 1,
	      Admin/Legal 1
	   Hobbies   : Sensors 1/Piloting 0 (Computer game)

	21 386868-6
	   Med.School: Computer 1, Diagnosis 2, Trauma Aid 2, Surgery 2,
	      Observation 1
	   Hobbies   : Piloting 1,Gunnery 0 (Computer game)

	25 386868-6 - Steward der Windfall

	   Str 3 +
	   Agl 8 + Acrobatics   2 = A
	           Music        2 = A
	           Piloting     1 = 9
	   Con 6 +
	   Int 8 + Observation  1 = 9
	           Streetwise   2 = A
	           Sensors      1 = 9
	   Edu 6 + Biology      1 = 7
	           Chemistry    1 = 7
	           Xeno Bio     1 = 7
	           Computer     2 = 8
	           Admin/Legal  1 = 7
	           Medical DTS  2 = 8
	           Gunnery      0 = 6
	   Chr 8 + Persuasion   2 = A
</pre>
<H3><A NAME="P1.Passenger">P1.Passenger</A></H3>
<h1>
	Passenger - male 33
</h1>
	Anyway, things being what they were there wasn't much
	work for a ex-Marine Colonel who had seen lots of action
	to do.
<p>
	You visited the office of a local bank and did some
	discreet inquiries.  Yes, they said, they paid 0.75% of the
	principal on the loan for ships recovered. Yes, we keep lists
	of skipped ships with holographs of their skippers...
	Oh.. but you need to have a private investigator's license.
<p>
	Of course you had one, so now you've got the list of skipped
	ships.  You've heard rumours that a well known pirate has recently
	hired on the Windfall, a 40 year old Jayhawk, and you think
	this would be worth investigating.  It would be interesting
	to compare the serial numbers of some of the more expensive
	items such as the power plant, jump drive, thrusters,
	contra-grav, computers and weapons.
<p>
<pre>
	13 895566-8
	   Hobbies : Music 2, Piloting IG 2, Streetwise 2,
	      Computer 2
	17 895566-8
	   Mil.Academy : Determination, Engineer, Interaction, Social
	      Science, Space Tech, Techican 2, Gun Combat 2, Sword,
	      Melee, Spacehand, Heavy Weapon, Acrobat, Personal Transport
	21 895576-8
	   Marines : Gun Combat, Spacehand, Heavy Weapons, Tactics,
	      Determination, Charm, Personal Transport
	25 895576-9
	   Marines : Spacehand, Tactics, Heavy Weapons, Personal Transport
	29 895576-A
	   Bounty Hunter : Gun Combat, Melee, Determination 2,
	      Perception 2, Spacehand

	33 885566-A - Bounty Hunter

	Str 8 + Laser Rifle       1 = 9
	        Sword             2 = A
	        Unarmed MA        1 = 9
	        Energy Artillery  3 = B
	Agl 8 + Piloting IG       2 = A
	        Laser Pistol      3 = B
	        Stealth           1 = 9
	        Grav Belt         2 = A
	Con 5 + Env. Suite        2 = 7
	        Z-G Environment   2 = 7
	        Parachute         1 = 6
	Int 5 + Streetwise        3 = 8
	        History           1 = 6
	        Tactics           2 = 7
	        Investigation     1 = 6
	        Observation       1 = 6
	Edu 7 + Computer          2 = 9
	        Construction      1 = 8
	        RCV Operation     1 = 8
	        Electronics       1 = 8
	        Communications    1 = 8
	Chr 6 + Music		  2 = 8
	        Leadership        3 = 9
	        Solomani          1 = 7
	        Persuasion        1 = 7
</pre>
<H3><A NAME="P2.Passenger">P2.Passenger</A></H3>
<h1>
	     Passenger - male 17
</h1>

	The *Disciples of the Bright Way* are a sect that believe their deity
	exists in jumpspace, and communicates directly with people while they
	are in jump. They call the sight of J-space *The Face of the Deity*
	and have a secret combination of drugs and meditation practices that
	reduce (but not eliminate!) the insanity impact of viewing J-space.
<p>
	They are generally not dangerous, but their disturbing practice of
	shooting up  drugs and staring out of an open porthole into J-space
	during the week of a jump means that most captains will refuse to
	allow them on board under *any* circumstances.
<p>
	However, the Disciples will pay an *obscene* amount of money for
	passage on a ship, and since they don't care about bodily comforts
	they are quite happy to bunk two to a stateroom under middle passage
	conditions, and pay up to Cr25,000 each for their 'pilgrimage'.
<p>
	You are a noble count so you don't need to worry about money. You
	haven't asked the captain yet to be allowed a place in front of the
	porthole in the air lock.
<p>
<pre>
	13 837496-E
	   Hobbies : History 2, Env.Suite 2, Unarmed MA 2, Astrogation 2

	17 837496-E
	   Str 8 + Unarmed MA  2 = A
	   Agl 3
	   Con 7 + Env. Suite  2 = 9
	   Int 4
	   Edu 9 + Astrogation 2 = B
	         + History     2 = B
</pre>
<H3><A NAME="P3.Passenger">P3.Passenger</A></H3>
<h1>
	Blind passenger - female 17
</h1>
	You have run away from home, ended up at the downport and
	hidden inside a container going to Lunion.  You have heard
	that the ship will go to Ianic - a desert planet populated by
	Jonkeereen.
<p>
	" Deneb 1324 Jonkeer : The inhabitants of the world, the
	  Jonkeereen are geneered humans, created by Imperial
	  Ministery of Colonization of Desert Environments.
<p>
	  Jonkeereen are tall, thin and dark skinned, with protective
	  membrans shielding thier eyes and ears. More important than
	  these cosmetic differences are sophisticated changes to
	  their metabolism that allow them to survive in the temperature
	  extremes of the dry desert environment.
<p>
	  Jonkeer's live at Spinwards 2215, 1924, 3123, 0533, 1736,
	  1836, Deneb 0701, 2717, 1524, and 1433. "
<p>
<pre>
	13 6B4468-A
	   Hobbies : Act/Bluff 2, Piloting Glider 2, Grav Belt 2
	     Xeno-Biology 2

	17 6B4458-A

	   Str 6 +
	   Agl B + Piloting Glider 2 = D
	           Grav Belt       2 = D
	   Con 4
	   Int 4
	   Edu 6 + Xeno Biology    2 = 8
	   Chr 8 + Act/Bluff       2 = A
</pre>
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #459
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Traveller-digest         Friday, 27 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 460

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #452
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #452
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #455
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #455
         5. A new career for T4
         6. RE: Formula Heaven
         7. Re: Gauss
         8. Re: Nice PC's, HMS Sheffield, Imperial Credit Card
         9. Re: T4 Blues
        10. RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #452
        11. Re: Physics formulas ?
        12. Re: Shadow Plans Delayed
        13. Re: jack on this
        14. Re: Salvage
        15. Re: Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues
        16. Re: Re: Hull values
        17. Re: T4 Blues
        18. Re: Scenario: Water for the desert
        19. Hardcover's in Madison, WI

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 18:06 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #452

In-Reply-To: <9609251706.AA12999@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< > I have never been able to believe that the airlock in _Aliens_ 
> could be open for 30 seconds without any ill effects...
> 

Yeh, that sucked badly! >>

Actually, it *blew*...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 18:06 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #452

In-Reply-To: <9609251706.AA12999@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< > I have never been able to believe that the airlock in _Aliens_ 
> could be open for 30 seconds without any ill effects...
> 

Yeh, that sucked badly! >>

Actually, it *blew*...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 18:07 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #455

In-Reply-To: <9609261513.AA15086@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: ImperiumGames@ImperiumGames.com
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:46:41 -0500
Subject: HARDBACKS SHIPED TODAY

The books ship today! >>

Hooray!

When should I expect my signed copy?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 18:07 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #455

In-Reply-To: <9609261513.AA15086@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: ImperiumGames@ImperiumGames.com
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:46:41 -0500
Subject: HARDBACKS SHIPED TODAY

The books ship today! >>

Hooray!

When should I expect my signed copy?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:02:49 -0400
Subject: A new career for T4

NOTE: This is MY take on a possible Pirate career table. IG will undoubtably
do something different. Use this at your own risk...

PIRATE

        Pirates are the scourge of the spacelanes. Whether operating in
large organizations or as independant vessels, pirate ships account for
siginifcant losses of cargo and ships.
        Most pirates are not the swashbuckling adventurers of holovid
legend. They are often desperate individuals, living on the fringes of
society, with no family or friends to speak of. Ruthlessness is a hallmark
of the successful pirate. Every now and then, though, you will run accross
the "gentleman buccaneer" type of pirate.
        Pirates often attack small unarmed merchant ships, or ships that
don't present much of a threat. Their high-G acceleration ships (called
"corsairs"; usually modifications of existing ship designs) are to allow
them to run away from the inevitable Patrol Cruisers and SDB's that show up
in response to their victim's distress calls.
ROUTINE TASKS: Attacking ships, stealing cargos, starting fights in cheap
starport bars, maintaining and operating ships, stealing ships, saying
"Arrrr" a lot for no apparent reason.

________________________________________________________________________________

ENLISTMENT: 7-; +1 DM if Soc 7-; +2 DM if Int 6+
INJURY: 8-; +2 DM if Int 8+
COMMISSION: 5-; +1 DM if Str 10+
PROMOTION: 6-; +1 DM if Int 9+
CONTINUANCE: 7-

1.PHYSICAL                      4. SOCIAL
 1. +1 Str                       1. -1 Soc
 2. +1 Dex                       2. Carousing
 3. +1 End                       3. Intimidation
 4. Brawling                     4. CHARISMA
 5. Melee Combat                 5. CHARISMA
 6. Gun Combat                   6. CLANDESTINE

2. MENTAL                       5. CAREER
 1. Computer                     1. SPACECRAFT
 2. Camoflauge                   2. Enviornment Combat
 3. Astrogation                  3. Gun Combat
 4. Gunnery                      4. Blade Combat
 5. Mechanics                    5. Gunnery
 6. TECHNICAL                    6. CLANDESTINE

3. EDUCATIONAL                  6. BACKGROUND
 1. Mechanics                    1. Brawling
 2. Tactics                      2. Pilot
 3. SPACECRAFT                   3. Grav Craft
 4. Sensors                      4. Blade Combat
 5. TECHNICAL                    5. Jack of all Trades
 6. Vac Suit                     6. Electronics

________________________________________________________________________________
RANK AND SERVICE SKILLS         SKILL ELIGIBILITY
All   Brawling-1                1 skill per year
      Long Blade-1              1 skill per term for Commission
                                1 skill per term for Promotion
O4+   Pilot-1

TABLE OF RANKS                  MUSTERING OUT TABLES
Non-Commisioned                 Die Roll        Cash Table (credits) 
E1-E3 Crewman                       1.          -
E4-E9 Senior Crewman                2.          -
                                    3.          1,000
Commissioned                        4.          10,000
O1 Henchman                         5.          50,000
O2 Corporal                         6.          50,000
O3 Sergeant                         Max 3 rolls. +1 if Gambling-1+
O4 Lieutenant
O5 Captain                      Die Roll        Benefits Table
O6 Pirate Leader                    1.          Low Passage
                                    2.          +1 Int
                                    3.          Weapon
                                    4.          Letter of Marque*
                                    5.          -1 Soc
                                    6.          Middle Passage           
                                    7.          Corsair (ship)

* A Letter of Marque means that the character has authorization from one
government to raid the commerce of another. In Year 0, this would most
likely be "pocket empires" outside the Imperium preying on Imperial
shipping. Such pirates are known (at least in the area that issues the
letter) as "privateers".

NOTE: I've put the Clusters in CAPITALS. Thought that might make them easier
to see.

                        Allen Shock


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 16:10:26 UT
Subject: RE: Formula Heaven

Simon John Harding waxed ecstatic and said:

>> 
>> P(t) = P0 * exp(-t * u*A/V )
>> 
>> 
>
>Fantastic!
>

Sheesh!  The things that excite some people I shall never understand!

					;-)>
					---Boyd


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:06:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Gauss

On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:
 
>In mail you write:
>
>> 3000m/sec would almost be overkill against personal armor; not to mention
>> what happens when it hits bone...
>
>At that speed, unless it is a AP round, it won't *matter* if it hits
>flesh or bone. Take a good look at what a .223 caliber "varmint round"
>does at 3000-5000 *feet* per second. Small animals like crows, gophers,
>maybe even rabbits turn into a cloud of grease. Watermelons turn into
>mush. 
>
>And with an AP round you'll *still* get nasty wound because of the
>shock wave as it goes thru. 

Reminds me of the time that I hit a squirrel with a round from a Barret
Light .50...  squirrel plasma..

My point about the gauss round hitting bone was that in a soft tissue hit,
the chances are high that the round will blow straight through with minimal
deviation/keyholing;  Hitting bone would likely shatter the offending
obstruction causing massive secondary trauma.

Shock waves and hydrostatic shock are secondary sourcs of damage at best,
the primary being the immediate destruction of tissue.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
| "This ranks very high on the weird meter." |
|                  -Quinn Mallory, "Sliders" |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:06:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Nice PC's, HMS Sheffield, Imperial Credit Card

On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:

>They guy in florida hit some trees. In another case, the guy hit
>snowdrifts on a *slope*, and one guy in WWII just hit a slope with
>brush and lots of loose gravel. He broke a few things, but was able to
>hobble away.

The gentleman in WWII was the tail gunner in a RAF bomber who decided that
falling 24,000 feet was preferable to burning to death.  He jumped out
without a parachute, and through an amazing series of factors (updrafts,
steep slope, heavy snow, fir trees to break his fall) had only a sprained
ankle and abrasions on his hands and face.. injuries sufferd *before* he jumped!


+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
| "This ranks very high on the weird meter." |
|                  -Quinn Mallory, "Sliders" |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:04:18 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 Blues

Craig Vaughton writes:

>It's very nice. The drawings are good, colour and B&W, I've always 
>liked Chris Foss's artwork anyway so the colour plates are a 
>bonus. The quality of the content is just as high as it's always 
>been and my appetite for the next additions is wetted....but ?!

   You gotta love a good but.... :-)

>HERESY MODE ON (Stand by with the NOMEX suit)
>
>It feels that there's something missing. Yes, apart from the rather 
>obvious bits like jump potential tables and the rest of the things that 
>are on the errata page at IG's web site. There seems to be a lack of.. 
>substance for want of a better word. Not in the strength or flexibility 
>of the rules, but in the product as a whole.

   In a conversation I had with a friend, he referred to T4 as "Vogue
Traveller" (in reference to the women's fashion magazine)--lots of slick
color illustrations, but very light on content.  While I'm not sure that T4
is *that* light on content, when you compare it to TNE, T4 certainly makes
the TNE basic manual look like a college History text.

>I know that a return to the "simpler" ways of CT are envisaged and 
>thinking about it, the feel of the T4 production is more akin to the 
>three small books in the black box than MT and certainly TNE are. 

   Which is what Marc, Ken, et. al. were shooting for, or at least that's my
understanding of it.  

>But if IG are expecting to encourage real newbie players into the 
>fold, then dangling the Milieu 0 carrot won't work, without more 
>background, tie-ins or generally explanation in the basic set. It's 
>ok for the "Vets", we've spent years playing and amassed 
>bookcases full of endless expansions, magazines and the rest, 
>sufficient to tide us over until the latest new official, I daren't use 
>the "C" word, offering appears.

   With a release schedule of one new sourcebook a month (shouldn't we have
seen the first one already?), loading up the basic set (actually book) with
background is unnecessary.  That having been said, it makes it imperative
that IG release new sourcebook material on Milieu 0 in as timely a fashion as
possible--as in when they say they are going to do it.  Forcing players to
wait month after month for material that was promised to them does not
encourage game loyalty.

   As for Vets, Milieu 0 makes the vast majority of your old material
irrelevant, or at least it does if you plan on using a setting in that
milieu.  If you plan on using some other milieu, there are the new game
mechanics, but little else of interest so far.

   By way of example, IMGGHO (in my gaming group's humble opinion), T4
currently lacks the depth of detail we are used to in our TNE games,
particularly when it comes to combat.  As we don't plan on using the Year
Zero milieu (we currently use the "Children of Earth: The Solomani Rim In the
New Era" material I've generated), and we will not be using T4 game mechanics
until they've matured a great deal more, my fellow gamers aren't exactly
breaking land speed records in getting to the local hobby store to pick up
T4, though I have purchased it and will be purchasing additional products for
use as source material for my writing.

>T4 is predominantly preaching to the converted.

   I disagree.  If it were, it would have been set in the Spinward Marches,
and it would have used a *slightly* revised FF&S as the basis for all
technology.  Instead, we are given some details on a completely new setting
aimed at younger players, and while parts of FF&S appear to be in use in T4,
it is a "dummied down" version, and some of the technology has been altered
(thruster plates, etc.) or ignored all together (cold fusion power plants at
TL 12, etc.).

>HERESY MODE OFF (Just call the fire brigade now)

   I would, except they won't respond to an e-mail address.  :-)

>Now don't get me wrong, I like it, it's great to have the one true 
>game back on the shelves. News of my death was premature 
>and all that. It's just, maybe , I don't know, I was perhaps 
>expecting more ? Or should that be too much ?

   After buying TNE and/or MegaTraveller and getting what amounts to the
basic and advanced rules up front, T4 does indeed seem like it is missing
something.  Vouge Traveller references aside, it's really not fair to do a
content comparison between T4 and the other systems, at least not until we
see more T4 sourcebooks with advanced rules published.  Expectations of
Traveller fans everywhere were raised to new heights when it was announced
that Marc Miller would be leading the effort to revive Traveller (actually
he's more the power behind the throne than the king).  It is probable that
your expectations were raised as well.  Actually seeing T4 now has brought
you back to reality.

Regards,

Harold


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 18:03:06 UT
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #452

Why do I always seem to get two(2) copies of email from Andrew Boulton?  
How can I stop it?  I don't think I get duplicates from anyone else.  

- ----------
From: 	owner-traveller@NS.MPGN.COM on behalf of Andrew Boulton
Sent: 	Friday, September 27, 1996 3:06 PM
To: 	traveller@NS.MPGN.COM
Cc: 	traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #452


					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: mizal@arrakis.es (Mikel Izal Azcarate)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:25:40 +0100
Subject: Re: Physics formulas ?

>  IF correct, and each gameturn is 30 minutes, then each gameturn is 1,800
>seconds.  If 1 G accelleration is equal to 9.8 meters per second per
>second, and we want to determine how far a ship has travelled in 30
>minutes, the plug ins for the formula would be:
>
>Distance in Kilometers is equal to (.5*9.8*1,800^2)/1000 correct?

        Correct

>If so, the numbers work out to be 15,876 Km.  If that is the case, why are
>the hexes measured in 1/10ths of a light second (approximately 30,000
>Km)?

        The system seems to be based in the velocity you get when you use fuel.
If a starship uses 1G-turn of aceleration during one turn it's moving at a
velocity:
        v = a*t = 9.8m/s2 * 1800 s = 17640m/s = 63500 Km/h = 30000
Km/halfhour (aprox)

        So when you use 1GTurn in 1 turn you get a final velocity of 1 hex/turn
        But as you said the starship has only travelled 1/2 hex. For
simplicity in the game they have decided to count the full hex moved. Thats
the same as considering the acceleration has taken full efect in the turn
it's being aplied as in the CT rules is said.

        And note that when you aply 1Gturn the distance travelled depends
on the way you have accelerated (constantly or not) while the final
velocity is totaly determined by the number of Gturns expended.
        If the starship whoud have expended the full G-turn very fast at
the begining of the turn ( with 6G during the first 10 minutes for example)
the final velacity would be the same but it would have travelled nearly one
hex.

+--------------------------
| Mikel Izal Azcarate
| mizal@arrakis.es
|



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 27 Sep 1996 14:28:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Shadow Plans Delayed

>I was watching Babylon 5 when I read that...

No need to gloat. B5 has been dropped here, at least by any station I can
receive without cable (and much as I like the program, it's not worth $40 per
month).

------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:38:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: jack on this

Simon John Harding  wrote:

>I don't know about the dophins but intelligent buildings and complexes 
>are a common theme in my Traveller games. There seems to be nothing 
>worse than a smug AI to piss off my players. 

The sentient Dolphins in Traveller were genetically engineered by the
Solomani.  There are articles in the old JTAS and TD about them. 

>If cybernetics are to be included in a Traveller game there would have 
>to be some house rules developed to recognise the equivalent of loss of 
>Empathy (Cyberpunk) or Essence (Shadowrun) that occurs with the addition 
>of items of cyberware. In my Traveller environment, both cybernetics and 
>psionics are considered of an alien nature and are considered to be 
>extremely condusive to a low ability to empathise with fellow human 
>beings. Only cybernetic devices of a critical medical nature are freely 
>available.

In a word, why?  I've always hated such artificial rules.  Is a person
with a pacemaker or an artificial knee-joint less human than one without? 

These rules exist in CP and SR because there needs to be some limit on
keeping PCs from becoming deadly Robocop-like hulks.  If the social system
and medicine of the Imperium is not set up so that numerous people want to
be robocop-like hulks, and if doing so earns you stares of disgust and
fear then artificial limits aren't needed. 

"You aren't comin' into this bar, you clank when you move, and you look
like trouble." and similar comments, can swiftly discourage going
overboard with cybertech.  However, a neural jack or one or two other
discrete implants would add to many characters. 


Comments?

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com






------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:54:28 MST7
Subject: Re: Salvage

> 
> > There will be market for second-hand starship bits, but I don't think 
> > you'll see many 'starship graveyards'.
> 
> Yes and no. The Navy has huge "mothball fleets" on the off chance that
> they might need the ships again. That's where the Iowa and New Jersey
> had been sitting since the Korean War. Eventually, they decide that
> ships are *too* obsolete and they scrap them.

	Also during times of war, salvage will be a lively occupation.

"CANON ALERT

KaBOOM! ssssssssssssssssssssssssss SPLOOSH!!!

Capn'! Capn'! Canon off the Starbd Bow!"

	Several entries in Survival Margin mention salvage crews swarming in 
after large battles to pick over the wreckage.  In fact, during the 
later parts of the Rebellion, there were several TNS reports of 
salvage crews being fired upon by Naval vessels, basically, in 
competition of the wrecks (AKA Spare Parts)

	Also, old obsolete ships will abound.  There is no reason to believe 
that the Imperium is all like modern day 'use it up then bury it' 
USA.  Far more likely, given the costs of a new ship, buying old 
creaky and in dire need of repair will be the only way most people 
ever own their own ships.

	For a good idea of the range of transport on this planet, watch the 
PBS series 'Michael Palin's Around the World in 80 Days'; our local 
public library has copies to check out.  He crosses the Indian Ocean 
on a commercial dhow.  TL-3, maybe! No radio, no radar, no head 
(there is a plank sticking out of the side of the ship with a hole in 
the far end, and Palin had dysentery for part of that trip!), a sand 
filled pit with a fire in it for a galley.  This is a major form of 
merchant traffic in the Indian ocean, too.

	Actually, it wasn't TL-3 at that...it did have a diesel auxilliary 
engine, making it TL-5, but most of the trip was covered under sail, 
since the mechanic was repairing the engine most of the time.

	There are a number of them being built that have no engine, just 
sails.  Wind, after all, if free.

	The last time this came up on the list (I think it was sometime
around December 95), Andy Lilly (I believe it was him...) posted a
delightful TL-12 design for a Naval refuelling tanker called the
Orrimot...jump tapes, hamstercages and all.

	This led to an interesting discussion of who would use such 
things...and the answer was, the bannana boats, the copra boats, the 
tramp spacers, or the neo-hippies travelling the galaxy in a wildly 
painted one called 'Furthur'...

	My Imperium's going to have such critters, just to keep the local 
color up.



Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 27 Sep 1996 14:35:22 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues

> It's ... weird ... to  realize that I've been playing this game for 17
years.

Yrk.  I bought Traveller when it was first published.  Freak my students out
to realize that I've had this hobby longer than most of them have been alive.
 They think it's wierd, I just feel old...

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 27 Sep 1996 14:37:54 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Hull values

>(the 300-tonner is, for example, just the right size
>and shape to be the Millenium Falcon)

So, when are you going to post the full Millenium Falcon design? :-)

------------------------------

From: Scott Thede <brutus@expert.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:29:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: T4 Blues

I have a few comments to make on this subject, as a long-time lurker and 
  Traveller fan (not as long as a lot on the list, though.)

> 
> Craig Vaughton writes:
> 
> >It's very nice. The drawings are good, colour and B&W, I've always 
> >liked Chris Foss's artwork anyway so the colour plates are a 
> >bonus. The quality of the content is just as high as it's always 
> >been and my appetite for the next additions is wetted....but ?!
> 
>    You gotta love a good but.... :-)

I would say the art is good, but it seems like too much.  This is one of my
  problems with the book.  I counted at least 36 full page illustrations, out
  of 190 page book.  This is nearly 20% of the book being art - pretty, but
  ultimately useless for gaming.  That is not even counting the illustrations
  of ships and weapons, which are not completely useless.  I would have rather
  seen about 10-15 pages of art and 20 more pages of material.

> >HERESY MODE ON (Stand by with the NOMEX suit)
> >
> >It feels that there's something missing. Yes, apart from the rather 
> >obvious bits like jump potential tables and the rest of the things that 
> >are on the errata page at IG's web site. There seems to be a lack of.. 
> >substance for want of a better word. Not in the strength or flexibility 
> >of the rules, but in the product as a whole.
> 
>    In a conversation I had with a friend, he referred to T4 as "Vogue
> Traveller" (in reference to the women's fashion magazine)--lots of slick
> color illustrations, but very light on content.  While I'm not sure that T4
> is *that* light on content, when you compare it to TNE, T4 certainly makes
> the TNE basic manual look like a college History text.

I get the feeling that there is something missing.  What's worse, I get the
  feeling that it is *intentionally* missing.  I'm not saying that is what
  happened, but that's how it feels.  It seems like the book is saying "Here
  is the bare minimum of ship construction rules... Want more?  Buy our next
  book."  "Here is the bare minimum of campagin background... Want more?  Buy
  our Milieu 0 book."  Etc. with alien rules, equipment rules, and so on.
  It just gives the feeling of trying to generate further sales of sourcebooks.
  I'm all for good sourcebooks, I just don't like feeling like I *have* to buy
  them to get a complete game.

<snip>

>    With a release schedule of one new sourcebook a month (shouldn't we have
> seen the first one already?), loading up the basic set (actually book) with
> background is unnecessary.  That having been said, it makes it imperative
> that IG release new sourcebook material on Milieu 0 in as timely a fashion as
> possible--as in when they say they are going to do it.  Forcing players to
> wait month after month for material that was promised to them does not
> encourage game loyalty.

I would agree with this, except that the rules don't seem complete either.  
  You can have a basic set light on background if it is heavy on rules; but
  this set seems light on both.  Those of us who are familiar with the system
  can "fill in the gaps", but I would be curious to see how people who have
  never encountered Traveller before are handling it... 

<snip>

> >Now don't get me wrong, I like it, it's great to have the one true 
> >game back on the shelves. News of my death was premature 
> >and all that. It's just, maybe , I don't know, I was perhaps 
> >expecting more ? Or should that be too much ?
> 
>    After buying TNE and/or MegaTraveller and getting what amounts to the
> basic and advanced rules up front, T4 does indeed seem like it is missing
> something.  Vouge Traveller references aside, it's really not fair to do a
> content comparison between T4 and the other systems, at least not until we
> see more T4 sourcebooks with advanced rules published.  Expectations of
> Traveller fans everywhere were raised to new heights when it was announced
> that Marc Miller would be leading the effort to revive Traveller (actually
> he's more the power behind the throne than the king).  It is probable that
> your expectations were raised as well.  Actually seeing T4 now has brought
> you back to reality.

I also am glad to see the Traveller name back on the shelves - don't get me
  wrong.  I think it is an improvement over the basic set in terms of
  complexity - it just seems a little light when compared with today's games.

Thanks for listening to my comments.  (Assuming that you did.)

					- Scott


------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:44:47 -0800
Subject: Re: Scenario: Water for the desert

Micheal,

Would you mind if I put this up on my page (when it's compelted)?  I'd
really like to, and, of course you'd be credited too!

Thanks

_______________________________Peter John Miller

"What a time to be alive..." - Dave Goldin, NASA
       -- petermiller@youngmerlin.com --
       --   www.dragonfire.net/~pm/   --


------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:45:59 -0500
Subject: Hardcover's in Madison, WI

Well, I got my Hardcover copy of Traveller today - in pristine condition.
NICE work.  Good packing, nice-looking product. I'm glad I ordered it.

I guess I assumed it would be signed - not sure where I got this idea, as
the ad says nothing about it. It wasn't. Still, it's a nice book to own,
and I'm sure I'll run into Mr. Miller at a convention somewhere.

Now, when's my harcover copy of the errata coming along. :-)

John Kovalic



******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Friday, 27 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 461

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: jack on this
         2. Re: Re: Hull values
         3. Re: Computer Models
         4. Hardcovers RSN?
         5. FW: Cold Fusion at TL 8
         6. RE: Computer Models 
         7. RE: jack on this
         8. T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL
         9. 15mm Figures for Traveller
        10. Re: RPSC: Impressions from my first use of it
        11. NPC:Archon Song
        12. Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL
        13. Re: Computer Models, Cybernetics
        14. Initiative wins...
        15. Re: jack on this
        16. T4 IN GROVERS MILL
        17. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446
        18. Re: Inspirational Reading - SF
        19. Re: Cybertech (Was Re: Computer Models)
        20. Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL
        21. Re: Inspirational Reading - SF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:16:39 +0000
Subject: Re: jack on this

John R. Snead wrote:
> In a word, why?  I've always hated such artificial rules.  Is a person
> with a pacemaker or an artificial knee-joint less human than one without?

They are poorly worded, not artificial
People with any replacement parts go through therapy to learn to live with the fact that 
they are not 100% human (we try to tone it down by calling it adjustment but it is a fact 
that people regard any flaw as inherently dehumanising, even something as simple ( and 
necessary) as eyeglasses)
However the typical result would not be the psychopathic killing machine but rather the 
clinically depressed semi-human

------------------------------

From: Scott Ripley <abiscott@pop.erols.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:21:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Re: Hull values

At 02:37 PM 9/27/96 GMT, you wrote:
>>(the 300-tonner is, for example, just the right size
>>and shape to be the Millenium Falcon)
>
>So, when are you going to post the full Millenium Falcon design? :-)
>
>

PSST: The Free Trader has ALWAYS been the right size and shape to be the
Falcon...check your CT illos (smile)




------------------------------

From: brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 18:00:23 +0000
Subject: Re: Computer Models

> With regards to computers, what the heck is a /bis model.  I'm familiar
> with the term used in conjunction with modems (from the French word
> meaning 'like', indicating that a modem is compatible with a standard,
> i.e. v.32bis).
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Jeffrey
> 
According to my CT set:

'There are two bis (meaning second, or improved) models of computer 
available. Each is treated as the next higher level for jump support, 
but as the next lower level for software selection'

This is actually what the 'bis' in modems means as well, v32 is 
9600baud, while v32bis is 14400baud. v34bis will be an improved 
version of the v34 standard.

- --
Brendan

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 17:22:00 -0500
Subject: Hardcovers RSN?

  9/26/96

  Dear Diary,

  Called IG from work today - WI Bell finally had listing
  (414-249-9430)!  Asked friendly young lady about T4 HB, when?
  She said was putting labels on "as we speak", going out
  PrioritySnail. Goodygoody!  Mentioned inability to get thru;
  she apologized, explained abt move; didn't get reconn till
  9/25.

  Also asked about JTAS - going to printers soon; expect subbers
  to have mid Oct, stores end Oct.  Asked for KW et al to keep
  TML up to date re product releases; asked for KW, MM to visit
  FT pages and give feedback.  She said would pass msgs on.

  Feedback last couple nites re FT - must change color of
  unfollowed link!  Otherwise, gen'ly + recept.  Lots of comps
  on Chris Cox's logo; must thank him.  Again.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ I haven't had sex in so long, I forget who gets tied up!





------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.micro.lucent.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:40:05 -0400
Subject: FW: Cold Fusion at TL 8

I was disconnected from the list for a while while my e-mail address
changed. I'm back, so...

brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk wrote:
> Because of this, and because of the withdrawal of the paper relating 
> to the machine, [ ... ] I am very sceptical about this (it a bit like
> cold fusion all over again)

I don't know about this supposed anti-gravity machine, but cold fusion
is not a hoax. Check out this web page at MIT:

http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/rei/CFdir/CFhome.html

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /       Allentown, PA  18103-6209      O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 21:53:41 UT
Subject: RE: Computer Models 

Earl Wajenberg said:

>>Michael Koehne wrote:
>>	Lutz	Takeda  - Human   - Captain and Ship owner
>>	Eike	Nadine  - Human   - Stuard, Broker, Electronics
>>	Alex	Howl    - Vrage   - Chief and Security
>>	Serge	Galileo - tl-f/fb - Fire Control and Astrogation
>>	Benkt	Nasti   - tl-c    - Enginiering"
 <snip>
>What do "Vrage," "tl-f/fb," and "tl-c" mean?  I'd suppose "Vrage" is 
>an alien race (related to Vargr?) and the "tl's" are AIs, but that's
>just supposition and I have no details.
>
>Earl Wajenberg

Michael is German (I presume), and I think some things occasionally don't get 
translated into English -- although he does a fairly decent job most of the 
time.  Unless there is an alternate Vrage (sometimes he says Vrag) I think he 
means Vargr -- if otherwise, then please excuse my presumption, folks.  

At any rate, I'm glad we on TML don't get into lengthy discussions about 
proper grammer, spelling and diction, no matter what colours...uh, colors we 
fly...   
			
			;-)	---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 22:18:49 UT
Subject: RE: jack on this

Cmdr Hold'Em said:

>John R. Snead wrote:
>> In a word, why?  I've always hated such artificial rules.  Is a person
>> with a pacemaker or an artificial knee-joint less human than one without?
>
>They are poorly worded, not artificial
>People with any replacement parts go through therapy to learn to live with 
the >fact that they are not 100% human (we try to tone it down by calling it 
>adjustment but it is a fact that people regard any flaw as inherently 
>dehumanising, even something as simple ( and necessary) as eyeglasses)
>However the typical result would not be the psychopathic killing machine but 
>rather the clinically depressed semi-human

I think that this shows a fairly limited experience with the world, it may be 
that you are young.  People who lose a limb don't feel "less human" because 
part of their anatomy is missing.  They may experience a trauma, but their 
humanity is more than their mass.  With your logic it would seem that a 6'7" 
tall person is _more human_ than someone who is 5'11".

The therapy that folks go through is as much to learn how to use the 
artificial device and to heal from any physical trauma associated with it.  
The psychological trauma is no doubt extremely difficult to overcome, but a 
patient in such cases is NOT semi-human!

While I do not wear prosthetics I do wear eyeglasses; and your words to the 
effect that they are dehumanising is ridiculous.  Am I suddenly "semi-human" 
because I wear metal frames set with lenses on the bridge of my nose?  (...I 
am not an animal.... I am huuuman...!").  What about folks who have to wear 
braces on their teeth?  Do they take a vacation from the human race for a 
while?


				---Boyd     8-)>

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:38:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL

Well...I just had a nice surprise upon coming home! :)  The T4 hardbacks 
arrived.

They were sent Priority Mail, so they shouldn't take longer than 3 days 
to reach everywhere in the continental U.S.  Don't know about other 
locations.

Anyway, they look really nice.  And an errata sheet is included with each!

Oh, and they're both signed.  But one is signed "Marc Miller," and the 
other is signed, "Peter Miller." 

Just kidding. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 19:08:33 -0400
Subject: 15mm Figures for Traveller

I talked with a fellow at RAFM (I didn't get his name) today (9/27) and was
advised that the Citadel 15mm Traveller figs were, basically, a dead issue
when I ordered them in August 1989 - what they had was what was in stock at
the time - and that the molds had *probably* been destroyed since then, just
to get them out of the way, though he wasn't 100% certain.  Pfui. - Bill

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:52:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RPSC: Impressions from my first use of it

On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, Susan M. Shock wrote:

> I ran a T4 adventure at our gaming club meeting tonight ("Rubicon Cross",
> actually) and we used RPSC 0.90 to resolve the space combat. The PC's had a

Yaay! :)

> Scout/Courier with one laser turret. The enemies had two IRON FIST class
> Corsairs and a COBRA-Class Corsair (it appeared in an issue of CHALLENGE).

Ooh.  Tough one battle!


> The battle was extremely interesting; I am now a convert to the armor system
> used in RPSC. However my players had one complaint. They would like to see
> the side that has the initiative get to CHOOSE whether they go first or
> last. That way, they could have "held their fire" until the enemies got

That makes sense to me.  Does anyone have any objections to allowing the 
winner of initiative to choose which side goes first?


> close enough to do some damage to. Perhaps have both sides move
> simultaneously a hex at a time! Then they can fire at any point in their

Hmmm.  Simultaneous movement....probably beyond the scope of the RPSC 
rules..but it has definite promise as an optional rule.

> movement as they "dance" around one another. Since Movement and fire can all
> be combined anyway, why not have all of it (for both sides) happen
> simultaneously. I'm running Traveller again Friday night; I'll test this
> idea and get back to you with it.

Yes, please let us know how it goes.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 19:28:22 -0400
Subject: NPC:Archon Song

Hi,
 Here is an TNE Npc I wrote up. It is set in the RC, but he can easily
be switched to any campaign setting. Just change his homeworld.

Lewis

Name: Archon Song
Race: Human		      Homeworld: Spires/Oriflamme/Old Oxpanses
Age: 33			      DOB:202/1169
Career:4 terms Martial Artist
Sex: Male

CB8714-3

Skills					      Derived Values
Thrown Weapon 1/3  			      Weight: 84kg
Archery 2/14				      Throw Range: 48m
Unarmed Martial Arts 5/17	              Load: 60kg
Lg Blade 2/14                                 Unarmed Damage:6         
                                      		
Pickpocket 3/14				
Forgery 2/13                                  Hit Capacity
Guard Beasts 2/10				Head: 16
Stealth 2/13					Chest: 60
Acrobatics 2/13  				Abdomen: 40
Wilpower 1/8	                       Left Arm: 40  Right Arm: 40
Painting 3/10                          Left Leg: 40  Right Leg: 40    
History 2/3  
Instruction 1/5
Tracking 4/12
Observation 2/9
Streetwise 3/11

History: Archon Song was given to the Purple Wind Monastary by his parents. 
The Monastary raised him, and upon turning 18 he joined the temple guard.  
Here he served with distinction for 16 years.  Late in 1201, he got into a 
fight with a fellow guard, over a bottle of whiskey, the argument turned 
physical, and Archon ended up killing the guard.  The monks, sentenced 
Archon to exile, he would never be able to return to Spires.  He regrets his 
action, and accepts his punishment, he has taken a vow to never 
kill another human being.  He has taken it upon himself to wander the Galaxy,
spreading the word of the Purple Wind Monastary, maybe one day he will
settle down and form a new monastary, but for now he wanders and always 
preaches the evils of violence.
 

------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:48:17 -0700
Subject: Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL

At 05:38 PM 9/27/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Well...I just had a nice surprise upon coming home! :)  The T4 hardbacks 
>arrived.
>
>They were sent Priority Mail, so they shouldn't take longer than 3 days 
>to reach everywhere in the continental U.S.  Don't know about other 
>locations.
>
>Anyway, they look really nice.  And an errata sheet is included with each!
>
>Oh, and they're both signed.  But one is signed "Marc Miller," and the 
>other is signed, "Peter Miller." 

Hi Joe,

I got my hard-bound copy of T4 today as well, however mine was not signed.
Did I misread the web site?  I thought they said that all the first printing
hard-bound books were to be signed.  Hmm...  Anyway, I've written Imperium
Games about it.  Just asking...

Matthew Mactyre
mmactyre@concentric.net
http://www.cris.com/~mmactyre/
PGP public key available on request


------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:09:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Computer Models, Cybernetics

At 11:05 AM -0400 9/27/96, Peter  H. Brenton wrote:
>On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, John R. Snead wrote:
>Well, William Gibson is usually credited with the "Cyberpunk" movement
>which uses the idea of Virtual Reality as provided by sight and sound
>inputs via video and audio inputs.

Vernor Vinge wrote a novella, _True Names_, which predates Gibson by a
couple of years.  It's also a far more realistic view of what CyberSpace is
likely to be like.  The last time I saw it in print was in _True Names and
Other Dangers_.

Another good book from a technical point of view is _The Long Run_, by
Daniel Keys Moran.  I want one of his inskins, badly.  His PKF Elite are
also something I've been waiting to inflict on some players for a while now.


Joseph Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

PGP 2048bit-Fingerprint: F8 A2 A5 15 56 42 9B 16  3F BD 57 0F 8A ED E3 21
"Mom!  I let my mind wander and it didn't come back!" - Bill Waterson



------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:18:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Initiative wins...

Regarding who wins the initiative, I agree that the tactical advantage
should go to the winner in who gets to move first.  Tactical advantages
should confer the "advantage" in whatever the winner desires, not that
winner of a coin toss kicks off (so to speak).

  Here is a question for you guys...

  Instead of making the sand caster function in only one mode, why not set
up a secondary mode for it:

1) use as per normal rules

2) use as a floating armor

The use of option #2 is based on CT's version of Sand casters.  If you do
not make any course changes, and thus, no defensive use of MP's, then you
may use sand as add on armor.  The bad part of this is that your enemy
gets a bonus to hit due to the fact you are on a predictable courseline.
What sayeth thou?

Hal


------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:44:30 +0000
Subject: Re: jack on this

Boyd Schneider wrote: 
> I think that this shows a fairly limited experience with the world, it may be
> that you are young.  People who lose a limb don't feel "less human" because
> part of their anatomy is missing.  They may experience a trauma, but their
> humanity is more than their mass.  With your logic it would seem that a 6'7"
> tall person is _more human_ than someone who is 5'11".

No, that would not work according to my logic!
The 5'11" person is not _missing_ something
BTW I have a degree in sociology/anthropology and am 30 years old

> The therapy that folks go through is as much to learn how to use the
> artificial device and to heal from any physical trauma associated with it.
> The psychological trauma is no doubt extremely difficult to overcome, but a
> patient in such cases is NOT semi-human!

I have a read a great deal in this area and there is a"less than whole" feeling associated 
with major loss

> While I do not wear prosthetics I do wear eyeglasses; and your words to the
> effect that they are dehumanising is ridiculous.  Am I suddenly "semi-human"
> because I wear metal frames set with lenses on the bridge of my nose?  (...I
> am not an animal.... I am huuuman...!").  What about folks who have to wear
> braces on their teeth?  Do they take a vacation from the human race for a
> while?

Again, you misunderstood my words. The eyeglasses are a noticeable deficiency, as they 
show a weakness (eyes) which deep down frequently limits us. How many people with 
glasses take a smaller role in physical activity becuase their playmates see their glasses as 
weakness. Children spot this weakness quicker than adults and happily torment the 
wearer. Humans tend to associate weakness with weakness even if the two are not 
related

------------------------------

From: Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:55:35 -0400
Subject: T4 IN GROVERS MILL

Reports today indicate that a group of three T4 books were delivered at
terminal velocity to this tiny New Jersey Community. No details are
available at this time and the Postal Department had no comment
concerning their delivery.

------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:33:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446

At 4:34 AM -0400 9/27/96, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>BTW, another argument in favor of the graveyard setup is the way
>airliners are treated. They wind up in "graveyards" too. Mostly to be
>stripped, sometimes you'll have someone buy a "dead" airplane just to
>get the rights to the airframe registration number (you'd be amazed
>what an airframe and powerplant certified mechanic can sign off on as a
>"modification". :-)

Could you elaborate on this?  I feel the stirrings of an adventure idea...

>Heck, given the low priority nature of bulk cargo, some of these could
>even be the huge bulk carriers that folks keep wondering about. Why
>waste the energy on that sort of cargo? Why bother butting new ships on
>such runs except to handle more cargo, and replace ships that can't be
>repaired anymore. Check out how long sail powered vessels with steel
>hulls were in use after the steam engine came into general use. You'll
>be surprized. Only reason that they *still* aren't being used is that
>they didn't scale up very well. Spacecraft, especially those designed
>to stay in space, don't have that problem.

I have a mental picture of bulk carriers as large dispersed structures with
cargo modules, like a modern cargo vessel.  This allows for faster
turnarounds as well - jump in, take a day to drop off it's cargo mods and
pickup preloaded cargo.  Might as well make the drive systems and crew
areas modular as well, so you can easily upgrade within the spaceframe's
designed g-limits.  Makes for cheaper repair for the big corps as well - if
the j-drive needs major maintenance every X jumps, you can just unbolt it
and ship it to a high tech starport for depot maintenance.  If you've done
the design right, you just take off a pair of adjacent cargo pods and you
don't even need a special ship to transport the offlined drive pod.  Once
the megacorp decides a module is too old, or just too lowtech, off it goes
onto the market.

I see some of the large tramp spacers as a century or two old frame with
modules of varying age and provenance.

The modular approach is also great for naval vessels - why not make all the
100ton bays and 50ton bays standardised modules?  Minor battle damage is
thus easily & quickly repaired at navy bases during wartime.


Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

A friend is someone you can call to help you move.  A best friend is
someone you can call to help you move a body.



------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:37:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Inspirational Reading - SF

At 3:00 AM -0400 9/27/96, John R. Snead wrote:
>How about Andre Norton.  Her Witch World books got *very* bad very fast,
>and she hasn't written anything exceptional since around 1975, but her SF
>of the 50s, 60s and early 70s is wonderful.
>
>Sargasso of Space and the other two "Solar Queen" books are wonder stories
>about Traveller-like Free Traders.  Moon of Three Rings, Storm Over
>Warlock, and one of my favorites, Android at Arms are great inspiration.

I'm surprised that Pournelle isn't being mentioned more often - John
Christian Falkenberg is a major inspiration to me for Mercenary campaigns.
Prince of Mercenaries is especially relevant in a year 0 campaign.


Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

"An ancient eastern proverb says: I complained because I had no shoes;
then I met a man who had no feet. For the 90's: I complained because I
had no PowerMac; then I met a man who used Windows."--Cloyce Sutton



------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:19:53 -0700
Subject: Re: Cybertech (Was Re: Computer Models)

John R. Snead wrote:
> If you can jack in a chip and have Gun or Air Raft skill of 8 + Dex
> everyone will want one.  However, if it only makes things like History and
> Linguistics better then lots of folks won't bother.
I agree. One of the old JTASs (#22) had an article by W.H. Keith called
"Computer Implants" which describes some of the effects of being "jacked
in". He expands upon it greatly in his recent Warstrider novel series
(good stuff). I allow any PC to increase technical skills up to 4 levels
(TNE; 2 levels Classic) but if they want to link to equipment to control
it, they can suffer physical damage if the equipment is damaged. 
Imagine a one megawatt power surge from a turret hit going into a
gunner's brain...

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:28:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL

On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Matthew Mactyre wrote:

> Hi Joe,
> 
> I got my hard-bound copy of T4 today as well, however mine was not signed.
> Did I misread the web site?  I thought they said that all the first printing
> hard-bound books were to be signed.  Hmm...  Anyway, I've written Imperium
> Games about it.  Just asking...

As I understood it, everyone who placed their order for a hardbound by 
July 31 would get it signed by Marc Miller.  If the order was placed 
after that, then Marc wouldn't be signing it.

When did you place your order?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:27:19 -0700
Subject: Re: Inspirational Reading - SF

John R. Snead wrote:
> One of the NPCs remembers a story about how a secret criminal organization
> discretely offered to replace any important person with an android of
> their choosing.  Are the PCs androids who were never used, are they the
> actual people who have been kept in cold sleep while they were replaced...
The referee of the campaign I'm currently running in ran a short
campaign in which the PCs were citizens of a low tech world who know
_nothing_ about the Imperium/Regency.  They could throw spells ala D&D,
fight orcs, etc.  The campaign ended when they discovered they were all
actually androids on a Regency "theme park" world which had been taken
over by Virus.  All spell effects had a tech-based cause.  Great, great
fun when subsector naval forces landed to fight Virus and the players
were programmed to see them as orcs, dragons, etc.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #461
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Traveller-digest        Saturday, 28 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 462

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL
         2. RE: jack on this
         3. Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL
         4. Re: [Fwd: Laser Rifles]
         5. Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL
         6. minor logic error in RPSC...
         7. Re:  Traveller-digest V1996 #461
         8. Re: minor logic error in RPSC...
         9. Re: minor logic error in RPSC...
        10. Re: minor logic error in RPSC...
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446
        12. Re: RPSC: Impressions from my first use of it
        13. Re: Time to Vent to Vacuum
        14. Re: Cybertech (Was Re: Computer Models)
        15. Re: Favourite SF novels
        16. Re: Inspirational Reading - SF
        17. Re: Time to Vent to Vacuum, oops
        18. Re: Inspirational reading/cybertech
        19. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #458

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 96 02:01:21 UT
Subject: RE: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL

Stu said:
>Oh, and they're both signed.  But one is signed "Marc Miller," and the 
>other is signed, "Peter Miller." 
>
>Just kidding. :)

ROFL
				---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 96 01:59:54 UT
Subject: RE: jack on this

Cmdr Hold'Em said:
>
>Again, you misunderstood my words. 

I'd be happy to continue the discussion off TML, I invite you to send me your 
email address and I will reply to your most recent post.  If you wish to 
refrain, I understand.

My email address is HomeBoyd@msn.com

				---Boyd



------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 19:34:18 -0700
Subject: Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL

At 08:28 PM 9/27/96 -0500, you wrote:

>As I understood it, everyone who placed their order for a hardbound by 
>July 31 would get it signed by Marc Miller.  If the order was placed 
>after that, then Marc wouldn't be signing it.
>
>When did you place your order?

Ouch, that is the problem I order it on 07/26/96.  <sigh>  Wish I would have
found that web site earlier.

Matthew Mactyre
mmactyre@concentric.net
http://www.cris.com/~mmactyre/
PGP public key available on request


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 19:58:34 -0700
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Laser Rifles]

On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Glenn Patterson <farquar@intergate.bc.ca> said:

>I believe that there is an error with the placement of the decimal point.
>The weight of a modern day back-pack radio is about 5 kgs and the 
>heaviest rifle/LMG is about 6 kgs. While this combination may still be 
>more than some characters strength, it is not beyond reasonable.     

Most modern assault rifles are in the 5-6kg range, but *machine guns* are a
different matter entirely.  From the 10kg M-249 to the nearly 20 kilo M-60,
machine guns are barely portable under the best of circumstances.

Take a good look at the laser rifle in comparison to the cR898 rifle -
better damage, longer range, at a relatively small increase in price.

Needless to say, once I get my hands on the design sequence (3G3 preferred),
I will design vast numbers of lethal goodies for my web site.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
| "This ranks very high on the weird meter." |
|                  -Quinn Mallory, "Sliders" |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 22:11:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL

On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Matthew Mactyre wrote:

> At 08:28 PM 9/27/96 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >As I understood it, everyone who placed their order for a hardbound by 
> >July 31 would get it signed by Marc Miller.  If the order was placed 
> >after that, then Marc wouldn't be signing it.
> >
> >When did you place your order?
> 
> Ouch, that is the problem I order it on 07/26/96.  <sigh>  Wish I would have
> found that web site earlier.

Hmmm.  Did you mean 08, or 07 as the month you ordered it?  Because if 
you meant 07, then I think your copy should have been signed (but I could 
be wrong - wouldn't be the first time[G]).


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 23:45:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: minor logic error in RPSC...

Hello Joe and list,
  On page 7 of the RPSC (using the word v.7), it states 

"A motionless ship (velocity of 0 hexes per turn) may change facing by
spending 1 MP which will allow a change to any facing desired."

  The problem I have with this is that a ship moving at a velocity of 9
gets to turn a 180 degree turn, and decellerate up to the max
accelleration rate of the ship - without having to pay any cost in doing
so.  Thus, a ship with a drive rated at 4g moving at a velocity 9 can in
one turn, decellerate to a velocity of 5, rather than a max decelleration
as implied by your rule that it takes a full G MP to turn to any hex
facing.  If I might suggest, unless the discussion regarding "slew rate"
comes into play, that any "facing changes" cost zero, while heading
changes cost either the current vellocity value, or 1/2 velocity assuming
a successful piloting roll.

Thus, the new ruling might read 

"A motionless ship (velocity of 0 hexes per turn) may change to any facing
without cost, just as a ship in motion may change to any facing without
cost.  It should be noted that a heading change is not the same thing as a
facing change..."

  The reason you might want to clarify this is due to the newer "facing"
hit location, as well as the ability to change the facing in which you
take your hits.  I am assuming that you must be facing in the direction of
the heading changes that you desire to make.  Here I am assuming that a
heading change by definition is:

HEADING CHANGE: the ability to change the velocity vector in some
meaingful fashion by use of MP.

FACING CHANGE: the bringing about of the "nose" of the craft to any one of
the six sides of a hex.  Could be done in preparation for the application
of a HEADING CHANGE, or as a tactical issue for either firing of weapons
or defending versus enemy fire.


  How quick does a facing change occur?  Can I move on a "heading" of A
(as per your diagram on page 7) at a velocity of 5, increase my velocity
by expending 4 MP to a velocity of 9, and then change my facing towards C
in preparation for the shot that will hit my weakest armored section of
the ship unless I change my facing to C?  Even if I don't have any MP's
left?

Hal


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 23:50:07 -0400
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1996 #461

Me: (the 300-tonner is just the right size and shape for the Millenium Falcon)
Somebody Else: So, when are you going to post the full Millenium Falcon design?

Scott Ripley <abiscott@pop.erols.com> wrote:
> PSST: The Free Trader has ALWAYS been the right size and shape to be the
> Falcon...check your CT illos (smile)

Yes, sort-of; the Keiths always did draw it that way.

On the other hand, I scaled a model of the Falcon, and it worked out to
about 314 displacement tons.  I used to have a complete set of Falcons (both
the stock light trader and the pirateship versions) for Classic Traveller.

As you well know; didn't one of your characters buy a rather used on in one
of my campaigns?  ;-)


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 22:53:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: minor logic error in RPSC...

On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Hal Carmer wrote:

> Hello Joe and list,
>   On page 7 of the RPSC (using the word v.7), it states 
> 
> "A motionless ship (velocity of 0 hexes per turn) may change facing by
> spending 1 MP which will allow a change to any facing desired."
> 
>   The problem I have with this is that a ship moving at a velocity of 9
> gets to turn a 180 degree turn, and decellerate up to the max
> accelleration rate of the ship - without having to pay any cost in doing
> so.  Thus, a ship with a drive rated at 4g moving at a velocity 9 can in
> one turn, decellerate to a velocity of 5, rather than a max decelleration
> as implied by your rule that it takes a full G MP to turn to any hex
> facing.  If I might suggest, unless the discussion regarding "slew rate"
> comes into play, that any "facing changes" cost zero, while heading
> changes cost either the current vellocity value, or 1/2 velocity assuming
> a successful piloting roll.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.  But, it seems that you 
are treating facing and heading in a different way than RPSC does.  In 
RPSC on page 7 it states, "Facing is the term used to describe the 
direction of travel."  Thus, RPSC does not allow for a ship to point its 
nose in a direction other than its heading.  Facing IS heading in RPSC.  
It's a simplification.

Hope this helps.  If I've misunderstood you, please let me know and I'll 
try again. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 22:57:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: minor logic error in RPSC...

On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Hal Carmer wrote:

> Hello Joe and list,
>   On page 7 of the RPSC (using the word v.7), it states 
> 
> "A motionless ship (velocity of 0 hexes per turn) may change facing by
> spending 1 MP which will allow a change to any facing desired."
> 
>   The problem I have with this is that a ship moving at a velocity of 9
> gets to turn a 180 degree turn, and decellerate up to the max
> accelleration rate of the ship - without having to pay any cost in doing
> so.  Thus, a ship with a drive rated at 4g moving at a velocity 9 can in

Ah, I understand what you're saying now.  And the answer is: RPSC ignores 
the need to flip the ship 180 degrees in order to decrease velocity.  
Another simplification. :)

Perhaps it is an over-simplification?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 01:53:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: minor logic error in RPSC...

<snipped> 
> Ah, I understand what you're saying now.  And the answer is: RPSC ignores 
> the need to flip the ship 180 degrees in order to decrease velocity.  
> Another simplification. :)
> 
> Perhaps it is an over-simplification?

Considering that each "turn" is 30 minutes, I don't think that the ability
to turn from a "facing" of "north" to "south" is all that difficult.  If
you have maneuvering plates set in the sides of the ship to help turn it
from side to side, it won't take 30 minutes to turn around.  As I stated
earlier, as turning from a full forward facing, and then turning around to
decellerate shouldn't cost a full g's worth of accelleration - especially
if it can be done in less than a 3 minute's time (which is about 1/10th of
a turn).

Solution: ignore the "cost" to turn in place.  Keep the cost to turn your
velocity vector from one "heading" to another as is.  If you want to make
the rules closer to reality regarding vector movement - limit the number
of hex-sides you can turn from 2 to 1.  This way, you won't be violating
the spirit of hard-core science too much.  On the other hand, being able
to make a sharp turn does add to the drama.  In this case, the ability to
turn more than one hexside at a sitting is either:

a) fun, and thus in the game for that reason, or
b) unrealistic, and forbidden.

PLayability verus realism - which?

Hal


------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 22:50:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446

On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> And while these ships might be easy prey for pirates, most of the time
> they aren't carrying anything worth the trouble of hijacking, and they
> pirates will be able to take one look and *know* that the ship can't be
> sold for enough to cover ammo costs. So they mostly won't get attacked.
 No, not at all. The fusion plants and computers alone would be worth
millinos.. And laser shots are praticley free. These would be *major*
pirate targets. And this is assuming that you woulden't wanna just jack
the entire ship, these would be *perfect* targets for up and coming
rebellions..

> (Besides, with no thrusters, no CG or artifical gravity, and no Heplar
> exhaust, they'll be a lot less likely to be detected).
 Not with a radio beacon and regular traffic between them...

bri <bri@teleport.com>
Remember, even if you win the rat race -- you're still a rat.


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 96 01:04:28 -0500
Subject: Re: RPSC: Impressions from my first use of it

Joe,

Sorry I've been AWOL the last few days, but Real Life <tm> had me tied up. 

On 09/27/96 at 05:52 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>That makes sense to me.  Does anyone have any objections to allowing the 
>winner of initiative to choose which side goes first?

I certainly don't.  The whole idea was to give the Initiative Winner the
initial advantage, so they get to "move" or "check." <g>

>> close enough to do some damage to. Perhaps have both sides move
>> simultaneously a hex at a time! Then they can fire at any point in their

>Hmmm.  Simultaneous movement....probably beyond the scope of the RPSC 
>rules..but it has definite promise as an optional rule.

I think it's doable even in the basic rules.  Wildstar's phased movement is
the most realistic, but simply alternate movement, hex by hex, would work
OK.  Faster moving ships get a *real* advantage at the end of the turn, but
that needs to be played out a few times to see how it goes.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:30:53 PST
Subject: Re: Time to Vent to Vacuum

In mail you write:

> The airlock was the airlock of an Air Force altitude chamber where I
> was taking flight training. It was vented to the main chamber to
> demonstrate an explosive decompression. We went from sea level to
> about 40,000 ft in seconds. I had plenty of time to locate and don my
> oxygen mask. (I wonder how long someone could survive in a real
> vacuum with an oxygen supply? Pressure breathing is an acquired
> skill, but the mask would seal the mouth and nose.)

Long enough to develop some nasty edema on all unsuported skin. Ask
Col. Kittinger about what his hands looked like when he lost the gloves
to his altitude suit when exiting the capsule at 100,000 feet (capsule
was suspended from a balloon). The results aren't fatal, but resemble
frostbite as far as damage goes.

If you are wearing a "skinsuit" (aka fancy elastic leotard) the answer
is quite some time. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:44:04 PST
Subject: Re: Cybertech (Was Re: Computer Models)

In mail you write:

> The key is to not make cybertech *too* powerful.  If it makes you very
> good with computers then 90% of programmers will have it (which is fine by
> me) if, (like in Cyberpunk 2020) it makes you better at *everything* then
> everyone will have it, this is IMHO not a good idea.  Limit the bonuses it
> gives: maybe skill wires and skill chips (except maybe for EDU based
> skills) don't exist. 
>
> If you can jack in a chip and have Gun or Air Raft skill of 8 + Dex
> everyone will want one.  However, if it only makes things like History and
> Linguistics better then lots of folks won't bother. 

Access to information (data) is easier *if* you have a good search
program. Otherwise you get buried in data. Calculations and the like
will be faster. 

Skills get *real* tricky. You can get "expert system" type stuff, but
*skills* are a different matter. What most of the cyberpunk stuff
overlooks is that any *physical* skill does *not* solely reside in the
brain. A lot of it is "muscle memory" (ie learned reflexes), and unless
you've replaced the spinal cord and a lot of the sensor and motor
neurons that connect to it, you *can* use a chip to get that. 

So you can know *exactly* how to make that killing martial arts move,
but not be able to actually *do* it.

Also, you couldn't get me to touch a commercial "combat skills" chip
with a ten foot pole. Why? Because there might just be bugs or
backdoors. How'd you like to be up against someone and have his AI
implant determine from your style that you were using a Ryko Industries
Model 5 mod 4 chip, and then proceed to nail you by exploiting a bug in
the routines. Or even just by knowing what your *programmed* response
to a sequence of moves would be?

And just think of the screams when a character discovers that the
combat chip has a "police override" that won't let them fight a cop. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:46:35 PST
Subject: Re: Favourite SF novels

In mail you write:

> 10 Great SF Stories & Novellas:
> (in alphabetical order)

One story that players and refs should read, just to get the feel of
what things were like *before* thruster plates is "The Cold Equations"
by Tom Godwin (I think that's the author's name).

The plot is quite simple. A young girl stows away on a one man courier
ship carrying something important (vaccine for a plague?). Only thing
is, the ship doesn't have enough fuel to match orbits and land at the
destination with her aboard, so say the cold equations of orbital
mechanics. Thus the title. 

You'll have to read the story to find out how (or if) the problem is
solved.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:54:32 PST
Subject: Re: Inspirational Reading - SF

In mail you write:

> How about Andre Norton.  Her Witch World books got *very* bad very fast,
> and she hasn't written anything exceptional since around 1975, but her SF
> of the 50s, 60s and early 70s is wonderful. 
>
> Sargasso of Space and the other two "Solar Queen" books are wonder stories
> about Traveller-like Free Traders.

Other *three* books. "Plague Ship", "Voodoo Planet", and "Postmarked
the Stars".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 18:02:04 PST
Subject: Re: Time to Vent to Vacuum, oops

In mail you write:

> Drills should be conducted routinely to improve the chances of the
> crew and, especially, the passengers to locate and don their vac
> suits quickly. A DM should apply, maybe based on the number of drills
> and/or the time since the last drill. Some consideration also needs
> to apply for a person's location relative to suit storage areas or
> being able reach a secure, sealable location.  Emergency "beach ball"
> survival equipment throughout the ship would not be a bad idea.  As
> in some WWII submarine movies, at some point a decission may have to
> be made to close off a damaged section of the ship that still has
> people in it.

Given the shorter time intervals involved, it's likely to be a case of
sealing the hatches first, then trying to rescue anybody inside who
managed to get to a suit or rescue ball.

> I agree with the earlier comment that decompressing the ship prior to
> combat has some advantages. In particular, everyone would already be
> in their vac suits.  Some consideration would have to be given,
> however, to a reduction in an individual's ability to operate his
> station in a vac suit. An alternative might be to leave the ship
> pressurized and have vac suits on with helments and gloves off, but
> within easy reach.  All hatches should also be closed. There would
> most likely be a variation in procedures between navies and, perhaps,
> between captains.

Don't forget that suits don't have to be *quite* that cumbersome.
"Skinsuits" will be a lot easier to move around in, and the gloves will
be less bulky. 

The areas that keep atmosphere may run at reduced pressure. This
removes a lot of problems, but increases fire hazard due to the higher
percentage of oxygen required to keep the air breathable.

One *major* problem with decompressing a ship is the life support
system. Especially given that much of the life support system may *be*
alive (plants, some small animals). This is more likely to be a problem
on non-miltary vessels. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 03:39:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Inspirational reading/cybertech

[Activate annoyingly didactic soap box mode/]

Re: the recent discussion of implants, jacks, prosthetics and other body
replacements and enhancements: seems to me that some TML posters are
perhaps basing their conception of these technologies on a couple of
William Gibson novels and a number of trendy but poorly-conceived games
based on them. To my mind, the exemplary cyberpunk exploration of these
themes was not written by Gibson, but by Bruce Sterling.

For inspiration in these areas, you can't beat Sterling's series of short
stories set in his "Shaper/Mechanist" universe, collected in _Crystal
Express_. Check these out, and if you like them, read _Schismatrix_, a
novel set in the same future history. All the stories and the novel have
are collected in one volume, _Schismatrix Plus_, a trade paperback due out
in North America next month (IIRC).

As for loss of humanity through prosthetic enhancement, Sterling's
characters would ask, "What's so great about being merely human, anyway?
Why limit yourself?" The Shapers and Mechanists represent rival ideologies
vying for control of the future evolutionary direction of the human
species. The relatively conservative Mechanists believe genes should be
inviolate, but are willing to extend their lives and abilities through
prosthetic enhancements of any kind. The radical Shapers design each new
generation from the genes up, willing to mess with their biochemistries and
neural wiring, whatever will give them the competitive edge.

Not surprisingly, some readers have trouble identifying with many of the
characters, who simply aren't human any more. They're evolving into
"clades", varieties of descendent species. While Terran society has turned
its back on both sub-species and has ossified, the space-colonizing
post-humans are no longer confined by old cultural, moral, or ethical
limitations. It's all rather Nietzschean and scary, but very plausible,
possibly inevitable.

The non-Imperium Traveller setting I'm working on will include a variety of
post-human Clades, as well as entire cultures of sentient machines, clone
societies, Uplifted species (both Terran and alien), anagathically-enhanced
life spans, and sundry hybrids between. In a vast galaxy of inhabited
worlds, natural biospheres, synthetic ("Terraformed") biospheres, and space
habitats, there are ample opportunities for experimentation of every kind:
new technologies, new societies, new cultures, ideologies, bodies, minds.

This does present a lot of problems in game terms. Every change in the body
suggests a new variety of rules, character types, and background
implications. Every new culture requires some exposition and explanation,
and the action could grind to a halt while the players are brought up to
speed on each and every new planet. But, as you may have guessed from my
earlier list of favourite SF novels (few of which are very Travelleresque),
my taste in SF runs toward extrapolation of strange cultural possibilites.

Thus, I'm looking forward to reading TML postings from anyone working on
Traveller rules for sentient machines, body mods, artificial life, extreme
longevity, cloning, etc., and their implications for Traveller societies.
As I work up my campaign, I'll be posting here anything I think might be
useful in these areas.

Basically, I'm trying to push Traveller out of the realm of Golden Age SF,
where the future is essentially a re-run of the past wearing a spacesuit,
and into the world of contemporary, post-modern speculative fiction, where
the future is deeply strange and ultra-diverse, where the frontier is as
much within us as out there among the stars.

[/Manifesto mode off]

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
 "I see it now! Madness IS the way!" -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 03:39:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #458

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) sez:

>At that speed, unless it is a AP round, it won't *matter* if it hits
>flesh or bone. Take a good look at what a .223 caliber "varmint round"
>does at 3000-5000 *feet* per second. Small animals like crows, gophers,
>maybe even rabbits turn into a cloud of grease. Watermelons turn into
>mush.

Thanks. Will remember this next time I am attacked by crows, gophers,
rabbits and watermelons.

<gr>

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
 "I see it now! Madness IS the way!" -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #462
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Traveller-digest        Saturday, 28 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 463

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Cybernetics in Traveller
         2. Re: minor logic error in RPSC...
         3. Subsector Maps
         4. Re: Tramp ships
         5. Unsigned Hardbound
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446
         8. Re: minor logic error in RPSC...
         9. Re: Scenario: Water for the desert
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446
        11. Re: Inspirational reading/cybertech
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #458
        13. Re: jack on this
        14. Re: Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL
        15. Lib Data, Kiwi noise, Gauss recoil, Weird UWP's
        16. RE: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL 
        17. RE: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL
        18. Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL
        19. Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL
        20. Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 15:56:24 +0900
Subject: Cybernetics in Traveller

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>

>>There are no traveller materials (that I have found) which deal with this
subject [cybernetics] in any detail.

DGP did several excellent articles on this very topic in their Medical Digest column of the Traveller Digest:

Issue 12 Page 35:  Replacement Body Parts
Issue 13 Page 32:  Replacement Body Parts
Issue 14 Page 33:  Replacement Body Parts, Part 3

DGP was great!!

Armand


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 96 02:34:55 -0500
Subject: Re: minor logic error in RPSC...

On 09/28/96 at 01:53 AM,  Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net> said:

>On the other hand, being able to make a sharp turn does add to the
>drama.  In this case, the ability to turn more than one hexside at a
>sitting is either:

>a) fun, and thus in the game for that reason, or
>b) unrealistic, and forbidden.

>PLayability verus realism - which?

A!  A!  A thousand time A!  ;->

I've been saying go for "fun and playable" over realism for weeks. A ship
should be able to turn to any facing in a small fraction of a 30 minute
turn, so for simplicity sake just ignore "slew rates" for RPSC.  

Of course, a turn to a different facing isn't the same as
accomplishing a change in course.  I'll defer to the team of
Wildstar and Walsh for that explainations of that. ;->

Eris 

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 04:11:00 -0400
Subject: Subsector Maps

Does anyone have a postscript/eps/pdf file of a subsector map?  I just ran
out and got a softcover T4, and could use a blank.  I'd use the one from CT
except I lost all my CT stuff in Hurricane Andrew.

Joseph Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

Incoming fire always has the right of way.

PGP 2048bit-Fingerprint: F8 A2 A5 15 56 42 9B 16  3F BD 57 0F 8A ED E3 21



------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 04:41:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Tramp ships

Bruce Johnson said...

>        The last time this came up on the list (I think it was sometime
>around December 95), Andy Lilly (I believe it was him...) posted a
>delightful TL-12 design for a Naval refuelling tanker called the
>Orrimot...jump tapes, hamstercages and all.

Great post, Bruce. I loved Palin's _Around the World_, too. Great TV.

I'm curious though: what are "jump tapes" and "hamstercages"?

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
 "I see it now! Madness IS the way!" -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 01:51:26 -0700
Subject: Unsigned Hardbound

At 10:11 PM 9/27/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Hmmm.  Did you mean 08, or 07 as the month you ordered it?  Because if 
>you meant 07, then I think your copy should have been signed (but I could 
>be wrong - wouldn't be the first time[G]).

Hi Joe,

No, I meant July...  Hmm... I'm going to wait for a response from Imperium
games.

Thanks,

Matthew Mactyre
mmactyre@concentric.net
http://www.cris.com/~mmactyre/
PGP public key available on request


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 02:25:29 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> And while these ships might be easy prey for pirates, most of the time
>> they aren't carrying anything worth the trouble of hijacking, and they
>> pirates will be able to take one look and *know* that the ship can't be
>> sold for enough to cover ammo costs. So they mostly won't get attacked.

>  No, not at all. The fusion plants and computers alone would be worth
> millinos.. And laser shots are praticley free. These would be *major*
> pirate targets. And this is assuming that you woulden't wanna just jack
> the entire ship, these would be *perfect* targets for up and coming
> rebellions..

The fusion plant is likely to be pretty old and cranky. Not worth much.
Ditto for the computers. We aren't even talking about your typical
"tramp freighter" here, we are talking about the African Queen or
worse.

Pirates aren't going to be equipped to remove powerplants and
computers, they'd have to take the whole ship. And that's not worth it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 02:00:14 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446

In mail you write:

> At 4:34 AM -0400 9/27/96, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>BTW, another argument in favor of the graveyard setup is the way
>>airliners are treated. They wind up in "graveyards" too. Mostly to be
>>stripped, sometimes you'll have someone buy a "dead" airplane just to
>>get the rights to the airframe registration number (you'd be amazed
>>what an airframe and powerplant certified mechanic can sign off on as a
>>"modification". :-)
>
> Could you elaborate on this?  I feel the stirrings of an adventure idea...

There was a story in Analog a few months back that took the idea about
as far as it could go. But as I understand it, you *must* have a
registration number for your aircraft, just to file a flight plan.

Mechanics have to be certified to work on aircraft. There are various
sorts of certifications. "Airframe and Powerplant" basicly means that
the guy is certfied to be able to do a complete rebuild of the plane
without losing it's airworthiness certificate. If somebody else does
such a rebuild, an A&P certified person has to sign off on it stating
that the work meets the applicable regulations.

So if you have a "hulk" with a serial number that's still good, an A&P
can just "repair" it, and you can use the registration number.

If you have a sufficiently *flexible* A&P person (and they are willing
to risk getting their certification pulled) they can sign off on some
pretty amazing modifications as being "minor" (ie not requiring going
thru the process of getting things inspected and certified as ok by an
FAA engineer). The essence of the situation is whether or not the can
plausibly argue that the mods were allowable under the (rather complex)
regulations. If they get called on it, they get to argue things before
an administrative law judge, and he decides....

>>Heck, given the low priority nature of bulk cargo, some of these could
>>even be the huge bulk carriers that folks keep wondering about. Why
>>waste the energy on that sort of cargo? Why bother butting new ships on
>>such runs except to handle more cargo, and replace ships that can't be
>>repaired anymore. Check out how long sail powered vessels with steel
>>hulls were in use after the steam engine came into general use. You'll
>>be surprized. Only reason that they *still* aren't being used is that
>>they didn't scale up very well. Spacecraft, especially those designed
>>to stay in space, don't have that problem.
>
> I have a mental picture of bulk carriers as large dispersed structures with
> cargo modules, like a modern cargo vessel.  This allows for faster
> turnarounds as well - jump in, take a day to drop off it's cargo mods and
> pickup preloaded cargo.  Might as well make the drive systems and crew
> areas modular as well, so you can easily upgrade within the spaceframe's
> designed g-limits.  Makes for cheaper repair for the big corps as well - if
> the j-drive needs major maintenance every X jumps, you can just unbolt it
> and ship it to a high tech starport for depot maintenance.  If you've done
> the design right, you just take off a pair of adjacent cargo pods and you
> don't even need a special ship to transport the offlined drive pod.  Once
> the megacorp decides a module is too old, or just too lowtech, off it goes
> onto the market.
>
> I see some of the large tramp spacers as a century or two old frame with
> modules of varying age and provenance.
>
> The modular approach is also great for naval vessels - why not make all the
> 100ton bays and 50ton bays standardised modules?  Minor battle damage is
> thus easily & quickly repaired at navy bases during wartime.

I'm thinking of things like ships originally built to use rocket
propulsion (probably, nuclear, but still *still*) to do the equivalent
of haul stuff back and forth from the asteroids, or even haul stuff to
the outer planets. Ships like that would *have* to be huge (and not
dispersed). But when Jump drives come into use, they'd be able to be
refitted for one easily enough, and since they'd have *millions* of
tons of cargo space, why not?

The modular approach has the built-in disadvantage of needing a lot of
extra support structure to allow for the adding and removing of modules.

What you are actually describing are the equivalent of seagoing barges,
with tugs to move them. There are runs where that is done. And in
space, give the lack of storms, it'd get done more.

For this, you'd have "barges" which are a *huge* hull with nothing but
holds (or tanks), some minimal life support (maybe), a minimal power
plant (to help run the loading unloading gear, and a jump grid in the
hull. It'd have fittings for a tug to clamp on and tie the grid into
the tug's grid. The hull won't be braced for more than a g or so, but
it'll be braced to take that with a full load, and do so from *any* of
the "clamps" for the tugs.

The tug would have a small crew, fittings to match the "barge", huge
fuel tanks, and ther biggest jump and manuever drives you ever saw!

Without a barge, a tug out to be able to jump half a dozen or more
times. And the only reason it can't accelerate at 50g or so is that the
grav compensators can't handle it.

Tugs can also be used (with care) to move asteroids or the like in
normal space, it's just that you have to rig a docking clamp for them
somehow.

I don't know if the ship design systems will allow such a tug, but if
they won't, I submit that they've got some flaws.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 07:51:11 -0700
Subject: Re: minor logic error in RPSC...

Joe Walsh wrote:
><snip> 
> Ah, I understand what you're saying now.  And the answer is: RPSC ignores
> the need to flip the ship 180 degrees in order to decrease velocity.
> Another simplification. :)
> 
> Perhaps it is an over-simplification?
> <snip>
Possibly not. The Starship Operator's Manual by DGP explains thruster
plate technology as being able to project its "thruster" effect through
a 360 degree sphere (including _through_ the starship its attached to
without damaging it).  This could be one explanation (uh...yeah, yeah,
that's it, that's the ticket...) but is it 'gasp' canon?  If so, chalk
up a reason for selecting thruster plates over HePLaR.

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 05:02:21 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Scenario: Water for the desert

Moin Peter Miller,

> Would you mind if I put this up on my page (when it's compelted)?  I'd
> really like to, and, of course you'd be credited too!

	better make a link to my page at

		http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin/traveller

	ok I hav'nt uploaded it yet, but there is alot of more TNE
	material there, and its still growing. BTW this night I designed
	a Jayhawk like far trader, which is under production since 1072
	in Gushemege.

	It looks like a Jayhawk or Marava class on the first look,
	but tech level 13 offers a lot of tricks.
	Oh yes of course its capable for flying through the rifs.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 09:14:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446

On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Bri wrote:
>  No, not at all. The fusion plants and computers alone would be worth
> millinos.. And laser shots are praticley free. These would be *major*
> pirate targets. And this is assuming that you woulden't wanna just jack
> the entire ship, these would be *perfect* targets for up and coming
> rebellions..

Put a tiny laser on them. Even the threat of potentially EXPENSIVE damage
to a would be corsair is often enough to deter routing piracy.  A small
laser, one just big enough to do some damage, makes a potential target
MUCH less desirable.

> 
> > (Besides, with no thrusters, no CG or artifical gravity, and no Heplar
> > exhaust, they'll be a lot less likely to be detected).
>  Not with a radio beacon and regular traffic between them...
> 
> bri <bri@teleport.com>
> Remember, even if you win the rat race -- you're still a rat.
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 08:14:15 -0700
Subject: Re: Inspirational reading/cybertech

Glenn Grant wrote:
> Thus, I'm looking forward to reading TML postings from anyone working on
> Traveller rules for sentient machines, body mods, artificial life, extreme
> longevity, cloning, etc., and their implications for Traveller societies.

I recommend looking over "Ringworld" and "Ringworld Engineers" by Larry
Niven and the Warstrider series by William H. Keith (of JTAS #22 fame, I
believe). Niven goes somewhat into the social effects of longevity while
Keith delves into the combination of man and machine.

------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 12:34:46 +1000
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #458

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 00:34:28 PST
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > There will be market for second-hand starship bits, but I don't think 
> > you'll see many 'starship graveyards'.
> 
> Yes and no. The Navy has huge "mothball fleets" on the off chance that
> they might need the ships again. That's where the Iowa and New Jersey
> had been sitting since the Korean War. Eventually, they decide that
> ships are *too* obsolete and they scrap them.

Interestingly, I believe that the US Navy *still* has a large "National
Defence Reserve" fleet of (mainly) WW2 era Victory and Liberty ships in
mothballs at various sites around the US. AFAIR, some of these vessels
were to be reactivated for use in Desert Shield/Storm and actually were,
tho I recall that some of the older ships took longer to reactivate than
expected.

Assuming that the Imperial Navy is anything at all like the US Navy and it
will also have mothballed freighter equivalents sitting around somewhere.
And, of course, there's the evidence of the Scout Service allowing surplus
Type S Scout/Couriers to be placed in the hands of ex-Scouts ... and, it
is stated in a number of sources, there are lots of them sold into private
hands. Presumably a lot of Naval vessels that are basically freighters
will also be sold off into private hands when the navy decides that it
wants something newer and shinier - but, naval maintenance standards being
higher than civilian ones, they will be a significant bargain to anyone
who wants to buy them for civilian use.

Phil McGregor

- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

------------------------------

From: DJessup938@aol.com
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 11:11:08 -0400
Subject: Re: jack on this

The reason behind the suggestion of some form of psycosis with
cybertechnology i think is due to the interface between the persons brain and
thier cyber parts. Remember we are refuring to an itnterface that connects
complex neural transmitted messages to an electrical and mechanical part. At
present this has not been acheive and no one can know the results. Therefore
it is reasonable to expect some change in personality as the brain is a very
complex organ and is interdependant on its whole

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 28 Sep 1996 11:05:16 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL

>As I understood it, everyone who placed their order for a hardbound by 
>July 31 would get it signed by Marc Miller.  If the order was placed 
>after that, then Marc wouldn't be signing it.
>
>When did you place your order?

True. 

But I mailed in a credit card order for JTAS in early July, and nothing has
shown up on my bill yet.  Either IG has lost my order, or the US Postal
System has.  Has the same thing happened to anyone else?

------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 01:14:44 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Lib Data, Kiwi noise, Gauss recoil, Weird UWP's

Dear Folks -

1.	LIBRARY DATA (A-M/L-Z) VS MT ENCYCLOPEDIA

The main differences are (1) new entries and (2) some minor tightening of
the text in the old entries.

I found this out when typing it all (well, most of it) onto the Amiga five
years ago. Belive me, I _know_.

2.	KIWI POLISH

My can of "Kiwi Neutral" says "Kiwi - Since 1906". Kiwi Australia is in
Warrigal Rd, Chadstone, Victoria (that's Victoria, _Australia_).

3.	GAUSS RECOIL

Tom Ellis said:
>Nobody ever said a gauss weapon was low recoil, they are quieter than
chemical powered

Maybe not in TNE, but the gauss rifle was _the_ weapon of choice in
MegaTraveller. One reason was that is was low recoil. I though that was due
to in-built recoil compensators (this is a TL 12+ rifle, after all).

4.	WEIRD UWP's

Charles Collin asked:
>2) What explanations for odd UWPs have you come up with in your games?
>What are your favorites from published sources?

The classic standard is "the planet has enormous [fill in appropriate type
here] resources and it was easier for everyone to live on-planet than
anywhere else".

The _best_ I have seen was the explanation for one of the worlds in
_Leviathan_. It was TL 1 but Atm 0 (or 1?). An article called "Aboard the
Leviathan" (_Space Gamer_ #40 [a special Traveller issue!], USA, June 1981)
provided an explanation. The natives were descendents of the survivors of a
starship crash. They lived in underground caverns with an "airlock" to the
surface consisting of hundreds of hanging blankets. Frozen air (a tribute to
Fritz Leiber' brilliant "A Pail of Air") was brought in and left to sublime.
These kept in the air, to a certain extent. The natives had degenerated to
wild, carniverous humans.

...Oh yeah, the author's name is familiar: "Marc Miller"!

UPP: Vior/Egryn/Trojan Reach     0805 X500401-1
________________________________________________________________________
Hyphen (David Jaques-Watson)                         davidjw@pcug.org.au
http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"


------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 11:48:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL 

In Reply to Your Message of 28 Sep 1996 11: 05:16 GMT
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 11:48:57 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: >As I understood it, everyone who placed their order for a hardbound by 
: >July 31 would get it signed by Marc Miller.  If the order was placed 
: >after that, then Marc wouldn't be signing it.
: >
: >When did you place your order?
: 
: True. 
: 
: But I mailed in a credit card order for JTAS in early July, and nothing has
: shown up on my bill yet.  Either IG has lost my order, or the US Postal
: System has.  Has the same thing happened to anyone else?

I thought that they weren't charging us until it started to ship.  At
least that'st the impression I was under when I ordered JTAS.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 09:06:21 -0800
Subject: RE: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL

On 28 Sep 96 at 2:01, Boyd Schneider spewed:

> Stu said:
> >Oh, and they're both signed.  But one is signed "Marc Miller," and
> >the other is signed, "Peter Miller." 
> >
> >Just kidding. :)

Actually, Joe Walsh said:

Proper credit where credit is due...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 09:06:21 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL

On 27 Sep 96 at 16:48, Matthew Mactyre spewed:

> I got my hard-bound copy of T4 today as well, however mine was not
> signed. Did I misread the web site?  I thought they said that all
> the first printing hard-bound books were to be signed.  Hmm... 
> Anyway, I've written Imperium Games about it.  Just asking...

Actually, they weren't going to be signed unless they were ordered by 
a certain date, but I'd be hard pressed to tell you what that date 
was...

Stu


> 
> Matthew Mactyre
> mmactyre@concentric.net
> http://www.cris.com/~mmactyre/
> PGP public key available on request
> 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 09:06:21 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL

On 27 Sep 96 at 20:28, Joe Walsh spewed:

> On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Matthew Mactyre wrote:
> 
> > Hi Joe,
> > 
> > I got my hard-bound copy of T4 today as well, however mine was not
> > signed. Did I misread the web site?  I thought they said that all
> > the first printing hard-bound books were to be signed.  Hmm... 
> > Anyway, I've written Imperium Games about it.  Just asking...
> 
> As I understood it, everyone who placed their order for a hardbound
> by July 31 would get it signed by Marc Miller.  If the order was
> placed after that, then Marc wouldn't be signing it.
> 
> When did you place your order?

Actually Joe, it might be end of June, IIRC...

Stu

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 11:45:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL

On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> > As I understood it, everyone who placed their order for a hardbound
> > by July 31 would get it signed by Marc Miller.  If the order was
> > placed after that, then Marc wouldn't be signing it.
> > 
> > When did you place your order?
> 
> Actually Joe, it might be end of June, IIRC...

Could be...hopefully IG will let him know what the cut-off date was.  
Darned if I can recall with certainty.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest        Saturday, 28 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 464

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RPSC: Thoughts on Suggested Changes
         2. Naval Bases
         3. RPSC: Optional Rules
         4. Orbital, graveyards...
         5. Deck Plans: What Next?
         6. Parachutes
         7. RPSC: Suggested Turn Sequence
         8. Re: Inspirational reading/cybertech
         9. Re: minor logic error in RPSC...
        10. T4 in San Antonio
        11. Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL
        12. RE: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL 
        13. Harcover signings
        14. T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL
        15. T4 Hardback
        16. Re:  Traveller-digest V1996 #462
        17. T4 HC arrives
        18. Re: Favourite SF novels
        19. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #458

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 12:04:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RPSC: Thoughts on Suggested Changes

Hi,

There have been several changes and additions to RPSC posted to TML and 
GDW-Beta, and although I've responded to some of them individually, I 
want to put my current thoughts on those subjects into this one post.  

First, though, let me say that I'm saving all the RPSC suggestions and 
comments.  At some time in the future (when there has been a lot of 
discussion and suggestions), I'll review it all and make a final 
decision.

For now, though, I want to get my own thoughts out there.  I'll try to 
summarize each suggestion, then respond to each in turn. Here we go:


1)  Facing Vs. Heading:  

How it is now:  In RPSC, heading and facing are always the 
same.  That is, if you are moving in a given direction, the nose of your 
craft is always pointing that way.

The Facts:  This is unrealistic.  As just one example, in order to decrease 
velocity a HEPlaR-using craft actually would have to flip 180 degrees and 
burn in the opposite direction from the heading.

Suggested Change:  Make facing and heading two separate things.  Facing 
changes should cost 0 MP.  Leave the cost of heading changes as they are.

My Comment:  While that is more realistic, it takes away from the 
tactical fun of the game, IMO.  The damage effects system uses hit 
locations, and an armor value for each.  Keeping the 
most-vulnerable/most-damaged side away from enemy craft is a real 
challenge when facing=heading.  If facing changes are separate from 
heading changes and cost nothing, every ship will spin to keep the 
least-damaged side toward the enemy.  This would decrease enjoyment of 
the game, IMO.
Also, it adds another complication - something else to keep track of.  
Presently, everyone knows where his ship is heading by simply looking at 
the figure; it's heading in the direction the nose is facing.  If we make 
facing separate from heading, then heading will have to be kept track of 
by another counter or by notes on paper.  I'd like to keep the 
record-keeping down.


2)  Ablative Armor:

How it is now:  Armor ablates (that is, the armor value is depleted) 
based on the damage value of the weapon.  Once all armor on a side is 
gone, further hits to that side do interior damage.  

The Facts:  Armor shouldn't ablate so easily.  While it is certainly 
possible to blow away enough armor to affect the overall effect of armor 
on a given side, it isn't as easy as the armor ablation rules make it.

Suggested Change:  Get rid of armor ablation by weapon damage rating.  
Make armor ablation one of the critical hit results.  Divide USP armor 
values by 10 (to get them back to the FF&S armor values T4 armor values 
are based upon).  When a weapon hits, compare the weapon damage rating to 
the armor value.  If greater, do an internal explosion.  If lesser than 
or equal to, do an external explosion.  Don't subtract the weapon damage 
ratin from the armor value.

My Comment:  The T4 ship design system, and thus all T4 ship USP's, 
include the increased armor values based on the idea of armor ablation.  
In other words, armor ablation seems to be part and parcel of the T4 
starship systems, whether ship design or combat.
While I lean towards wanting to get rid of armor ablation for 
simplification reasons in addition to realism, I don't want to make that 
great a change from T4's approach to starships.  Changing the BSCS rules 
is one thing, but ignoring the principles underlying the ship design/USP 
system is another.
However, if IG has re-thought this and Starships comes out with a system 
that doesn't use armor ablation, I'll almost certainly make this change 
to RPSC.

3)  Initiative

How it is now:  The initiative winner moves and fires first.

The suggestion:  Let the initiative winner decide who moves and fires first.

My comment:  It's more playable, and it isn't a complication.  Makes 
sense.  It'll be changed.


4)  Movement and Firing

How it is now:  One side does all its movement and firing, then the other 
side does all of its movement and firing.

The Facts:  In real life, of course this wouldn't happen.  Everything 
happens at once.  

The Suggestion:  Either structure the movement and firing systems 
similarly to how it was originally (every action has a step, and task 
forces alternate in performing each step:  one side moves, then the other 
side moves; one side fires, then the other side fires; etc.), or make a 
partial movement/firing system wherein everyone moves one hex, then 
everyone fires, then everyone moves another hex, then everyone fires, etc.

My Comment:  In a game, no matter what, you're going to have to do things 
differently than they're done in real life.  Games need some sort of 
structure, and real life (especially combat - whether on the ground or in 
space) has little of that.  The difficulty is finding the right balance 
of realism and playability to achieve the _feel_ you want your game to 
have.
I think the way RPSC handles movement and firing right now is right for 
the purpose of RPSC.  But, that may be simply a reflection of my own 
role-playing style.  It's the way my group has always done it, in fact, 
since we're not wargamers.  
I think that this issue is one that will be resolved only after many 
detailed alternatives have been put forth, and each has been widely 
playtested.  So, if you have an idea in this area, write it up as a rule 
(and consider all the other aspects of RPSC that will be affected and 
write them up, too) and share it on the mailing list.  Then we'll find 
out what others think of it.
Those who don't want to write up rules are encouraged to offer their 
support for one methodology or the other (in this and all areas under 
discussion, as a matter of fact).  
We'll see what comes of this discussion.


Thank you all for the comments (and keep 'em coming!),


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: Ed Dowgiallo <edowgial@prolog.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 12:59:43 -0400
Subject: Naval Bases

Do any of the supplements contain any sort of detailed information on 
the structure or combat capabilities of a Naval base? In my local gaming 
group, the PCs are going to end up involved in a pre-emptive strike by 
the Darrian Confederation on the naval base at the Sword Worlds capitol 
during the 5th frontier war. Any suggestions will be appreciated.

Ed

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 12:11:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RPSC: Optional Rules

RPSC, like Traveller, is a system that is malleable to the tastes of 
individual gaming groups.  Like it says in the RPSC rules, if you don't 
like something, change it - and share your change with others so that 
they can benefit from your idea.

The sandcasters rule that is being discussed is a good example of this.  
In fact, early on in the design of RPSC it used a system whereby launched 
canisters effectively added armor to the ship (but only vs. beam weapons 
such as lasers, of course).  For role-playing purposes, we decided to 
change it.  The change made defensive gunners far more important (and I 
want EVERY PC, no matter what position, to feel important during the 
battle if at all possible).

While I'd rather not have the "official" version of RPSC use two 
different rules for sandcasters, individuals are certainly welcome to 
change it in their own game - as with any other part of the system.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 12:55:11 -0500
Subject: Orbital, graveyards...

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 00:34:28 PST
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446
>
>In mail you write:
>
>One *big* factor in
>favor of this is the fact that unlike on the ground, stirage space in
>orbit is essentially "free". You park the ships in a high orbit (so you
>don't need to worry about orbital decay for a century or two. Tie them
>together loosely with cables, and hang a radar beacon onto the mess.
>Since orbital installations will be common, you *won't* be in any of
>the "prime" locations, such as synchronous orbit. But you'll be
>reachable without too much trouble (maybe an hour or so in a low power
>shuttle).
>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

I would think a more suitable location would a LaGrange point around a
planet or gas giant.  In this way the ships would be reasonably close at
hand but far enough away to avoid them being in the way of regular system
traffic.  Being in the LaGrange points they will tend to stay put and you
wouldn't have to worry about orbital decay at all.

In fact it leads to some interesting adventure possibilities...  Hiding out
from pursuit from Pirates/Authorities in the graveyard, transporting hulks
from dirtside to storage, scavenging needed parts for a repair in an
emergency, etc...

Chuck

___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/




------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 28 Sep 1996 13:54:29 GMT
Subject: Deck Plans: What Next?

Being currently laid up with the flu/cold (and unwilling to trust my judgement
in marking papers when I have a stuffed head), I have a few hours spare time
this weekend.  Which deckplan should I work on next?

------------------------------

From: Chuck Maddox <cmaddox@xnet.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 13:07:42 -0500
Subject: Parachutes

le> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) Date: Fri, 27 Sep
le> 1996 02:36:26 PST Subject: Re: Nice PC's, HMS Sheffield, Imperial
le> Credit Card
le>
le> Do realize that surviving a 200 foot jump is *not* as ridiculous as
le> it sounds. The news media made a big thing of the guy in Florida
le> who screwed up a parachute jump and dropped that far and was able
le> to *walk away*. There are a lot of other instances on record. It's
le> not something you want to count on, but as long as you aren't
le> heading for hard flat ground, there's a chance.
le>
le> They guy in florida hit some trees. In another case, the guy hit
le> snowdrifts on a *slope*, and one guy in WWII just hit a slope with
le> brush and lots of loose gravel. He broke a few things, but was able
le> to hobble away.
le>
le> Unlikely? Yup. But given the choice between those big uglies and a
le> stream (maybe shallow, maybe not) or some trees, the unlikely
le> starts looking a whole lot better than the certainty of getting
le> munched.
le>
le> - -- Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

A couple of things that I remember reading ten years ago about WWII was that:

A) For at least a portion of the war the British did not equip their
paratroops with a reserve parachute.  The cost/expense of a piece of
equipment that was 99+% of the time not used was deemed to be a "luxury"
and unnecessary considering the shortages of material at the time.  The
lack of a reserve 'chute was deemed just another of the risks that the
paratroops had to bear...

Cold?  Yeah, but the Brit's apparently weren't the coldest...

B) I remember reading that the Russians during the heights of winter would
bundle paratroops in the slowest flying aircraft they could find and the
planes would swoop in as low and slow as they could and the troops would
jump off into the snow drifts...

As I said it's been ten years or so since I read about this and I do not
remember the book's title or author, so I would not consider it "canon".
It sounds almost unbelieveable but still reasonably plausible in a crisis
situation.

Chuck

___________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@xnet.com
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/




------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 15:22:47 -0400
Subject: RPSC: Suggested Turn Sequence

Here is my suggestion for an alteration to the order of turn in RPSC. It is
admittedly based on the order of turn in BRILLIANT LANCES.

1. LAUNCH PHASE
        Launch any small craft and all missles. This allows them to move on
the turn they were launched. Targets must be declared for missles at this time.

2. INITIATIVE
        Each side rolls 1d6 and adds the ship commander's tactics (or
leadership, if you prefer) skill. High roll is the winner.

3. MOVEMENT
       The side that lost initiative performs all movement. Then the side
that won moves.

4. SENSOR PHASE
        Sensor status (Active or Passive) is declared. Then detection rolls
are made (this produces the "bogies"). Then locks are rolled. Both of these
are only done once per battle unless a.) the target is destroyed, which
produces a "white out effect that cancels any locks in the LOS of the other
ships or B. ) the target is hit by missles, producing a small white-out that
just breaks the locks on that ship.

5. FIRE PHASE
        Both sides declare what weapons they will fire and what defenses
they will use. Fire is conducted and damage assessed. Fire is simultaneous.

6. DAMAGE CONTROL PHASE
        Both ships attempt damage control as needed.

Start again and continue until somebody goes boom.

                                        Allen


------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 12:10:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Inspirational reading/cybertech

Glenn Grant wrote:

>Thus, I'm looking forward to reading TML postings from anyone working on
>Traveller rules for sentient machines, body mods, artificial life, extreme
>longevity, cloning, etc., and their implications for Traveller societies.
>As I work up my campaign, I'll be posting here anything I think might be
>useful in these areas.

>Basically, I'm trying to push Traveller out of the realm of Golden Age SF,
>where the future is essentially a re-run of the past wearing a spacesuit,
>and into the world of contemporary, post-modern speculative fiction, where
>the future is deeply strange and ultra-diverse, where the frontier is as
>much within us as out there among the stars.

Transhumanist Traveller, I love it!

I'd be very interesting in a discussion of such variant Traveller games. 
I've often thought about trying to run such a game, but the problem I've
found is that the setting can be simply too alien for many players.  As
for literary inspirations, I strongly recommend (in addition to the
Shaper/Mech books): 

All of  Gregory Benford's "galactic core" novels:

The Great Sky River, Tides of Light, Furious Gulf and Sailing Bright
Eternity. 

Also try Eon and Eternity by Greg Bear and Michael Swanwick's novel Vacuum
Flowers. 

So, how would you run a post-human game which players can truly grasp and
be a part of?  I'd also love to see some more of your ideas on what such a
setting should be like. 

I recommend that nanotech be avoided in such a setting.  It has the
potential to very easily become the "everything device" and make most
gaming scenarios rather pointless. 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com  




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 96 14:28:17 -0500
Subject: Re: minor logic error in RPSC...

On 09/28/96 at 07:51 AM,  David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net> said:

>> Ah, I understand what you're saying now.  And the answer is: RPSC ignores
>> the need to flip the ship 180 degrees in order to decrease velocity.
>> Another simplification. :)
 
>> Perhaps it is an over-simplification?

If you're talking 3 minute turns it is, but with a 30 minute turn it
shouldn't really matter.  How much time does it take a ship to slew 60,
120, 180 degrees?  We've got to be talking about turning rates not much
worse than 1 degree/second, right?  At 1/second a 180 turn is 3 minutes.

>The Starship Operator's Manual by DGP explains thruster
>plate technology as being able to project its "thruster" effect through a
>360 degree sphere (including _through_ the starship its attached to
>without damaging it).  This could be one explanation (uh...yeah, yeah,
>that's it, that's the ticket...) but is it 'gasp' canon?  

It's probably not, but it still looks good to me, <g> and solves the
problem.  The ship can physically turn at it's leisure, but the *thrust*
changes vector instantanously.  BTW, I know what kind of problems that
would be for the bracing in the ship, but you could either ignore that or
"hand-wave" it away by saying that TPlate ships have 360 degree braceing
built in.

>If so, chalk up a reason for selecting thruster plates over HePLaR.

Very good. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Lan Kelly <CyberWere@ConnectI.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 14:42:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4 in San Antonio

My signed copy arrived today.  Signed with the errata sheet.
Goes imediately onto the shelf while I wear out the softbound copy I got
last week. :-)

LAN


Lan Kelly       CyberWere@ ConnectI.com      San Antonio, Texas
***********
Repair Order "Check for clunking noise when turning corners."
Repair Report "Removed bowling ball from trunk."
"All in a Day's Work", Oct 96 Reader's Digest


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 19:46:25 GMT
Subject: Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL

On Sat, 28 Sep 1996 11:45:59 -0500 (CDT), Joe Walsh wrote:

> On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> 
> > > As I understood it, everyone who placed their order for a hardbound
> > > by July 31 would get it signed by Marc Miller.  If the order was
> > > placed after that, then Marc wouldn't be signing it.
> > > 
> > > When did you place your order?
> > 
> > Actually Joe, it might be end of June, IIRC...
> 
> Could be...hopefully IG will let him know what the cut-off date was.  
> Darned if I can recall with certainty.

I believe they said that they were going to take orders up until June 30
for the limited edition "signature" series hardbacks, but wouldn't be
billing for them (Visa, MC, etc.) until July.

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 12:48:54 -0800
Subject: RE: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL 

On 28 Sep 96 at 11:48, That Computer Guy spewed:

> I thought that they weren't charging us until it started to ship. 
> At least that'st the impression I was under when I ordered JTAS.
> 
>        --Jerry

Best check your credit card statement Jerry...

I ordered by phone back in May when they first put up their web 
page...  At that time they were saying they would bill at end of July 
for the things.  My Visa statement showed them billed on July 25th.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 15:51:44 -0400
Subject: Harcover signings

 I'm pretty sure that you had to order your hardcover before June 30th to
get the signature. I mailed out my order on May 31st.
                                                Allen

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 96 15:11:42 -0500
Subject: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL

...but not in Pensacola, FL yet. ;-<

>: But I mailed in a credit card order for JTAS in early July, and nothing
>has : shown up on my bill yet.  Either IG has lost my order, or the US
>Postal : System has.  Has the same thing happened to anyone else?

>I thought that they weren't charging us until it started to ship.  At
>least that'st the impression I was under when I ordered JTAS.

I can't say for credit cards, but I paid by check and IG cashed it sometime
around the first of July.  I got the canceled check back with my bank
statement a couple of months back.  So they've had my money now for 3
months..<grumble grumble>..and I haven't gotten squat.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 15:19:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4 Hardback

I was breaking in my "for use" hardback, and noticed that the color 
illustrations on pages 53-54 are in there twice (that is, my book's page 
order is ...52,53,54,53,54,55...).  It doesn't bother me, but I hope that 
doesn't mean someone out there has a book w/o that particular page.

I checked my other hardback, and it has that sheet only once.

Both copies have a boo-boo on page 12: the title "What's in this Book" 
has a messed up "Wh" - it looks like the ink bubbled or something (or, 
since it is in both copies, perhaps the plate was messed up somehow?).

Finally, on pages which face B&W illustrations, and the page facing the 
sector map, ink from the dark areas has rubbed off, leaving smudges.  
This is true for both copies.

These errors, combined with the lengthy delay, makes me hope IG will use 
a different printer for future products.  Or, if they must use the same 
printer, I hope they are very careful about checking the products before 
they ship them.  (I'm not trying to heap more abuse on IG, by the way - 
just hoping for better quality control from the printer they choose.)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 96 16:33:13 -0400
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1996 #462

Hal Carmer <hal@buffnet.net> wrote:
> RPSC movement rules:
> "A motionless ship (velocity of 0 hexes per turn) may change facing by
> spending 1 MP which will allow a change to any facing desired."
> 
>   The problem I have with this is that a ship moving at a velocity of 9
> gets to turn a 180 degree turn, and decellerate up to the max
> accelleration rate of the ship - without having to pay any cost in doing
> so.

It's a simplification.  In RPSC, we treat the ship as if it was always
facing in the direction it is moving, just because it's easier.
It's more fun to have firing arcs and damage according to arc, so RPSC uses
those, although (strictly speaking) the ship's facing is frequently not the
same as it's direction of travel.

The 1MP cost for a motionless ship to turn to any facing is in there to
prevent abuse of the turning rules.  If a motionless ship were allowed to
change it's facing to any point desired, as often as it wanted, there would
be a great advantage to being motionless.  This wasn't desired, so a simple,
easy-to-play limit was put on it (and tying the cost to MP means that ships
with bigger drives can turn more often, and ships with dead maneuver drives
can't maneuver, even in place).

As Joe states in the introduction, the point of RPSC is to have a relatively
simple, easy-to-understand, and fun and quick to play rules set.  If the
choice was between playability and realism, then playability is in, and
realism is out.  In particular, a great many parts of the RPSC movement
system don't really correspond to physical law, but _do_ roughly (sometimes
_very_ roughly) approximate it most of the time.

There _will be_ rules systems for Traveller space combat that accurately
account for the ship's facing as separate from it's velocity.  These rule
systems will specify how much, and how often the ship gets to change it's
facing.  These rules will also have a lot more rules, and be a lot more
"boardgamey" than RPSC.

> How quick does a facing change occur?  Can I move on a "heading" of A
> (as per your diagram on page 7) at a velocity of 5, increase my velocity
> by expending 4 MP to a velocity of 9, and then change my facing towards C
> in preparation for the shot that will hit my weakest armored section of
> the ship unless I change my facing to C?  Even if I don't have any MP's
> left?

No, you can't.  In RPSC movement, your heading and your facing are always
the same.  It's a simplification meant to keep the game more playable.
If it bugs you too much, try using the Mayday movement rules - which are
much more accurate, but require three counters for every ship on the board,
and a lot more bookkeeping.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: Rick Baumhauer <sennafan@rust.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 17:31:38 -0400
Subject: T4 HC arrives

Happily, my hardback arrived in suburban Detroit today.  Looks quite 
good, and prompted me to place an order for JTAS and Starships.

So, did everybody get 2 of every page up to the first color plate?

Rick
- -- 
"If they think you're crude, go technical; 
if they think you're technical, go crude.  
I'm a very technical boy.  
So I decided to get as crude as possible."
					             
		William Gibson, "Johnny Mnemonic", 1981

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 17:38:06 +0000
Subject: Re: Favourite SF novels

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> One story that players and refs should read, just to get the feel of
> what things were like *before* thruster plates is "The Cold Equations"
> by Tom Godwin (I think that's the author's name).
> The plot is quite simple. A young girl stows away on a one man courier
> ship carrying something important (vaccine for a plague?). Only thing
> is, the ship doesn't have enough fuel to match orbits and land at the
> destination with her aboard, so say the cold equations of orbital
> mechanics. Thus the title.
> You'll have to read the story to find out how (or if) the problem is
> solved.

I read this story, only problem is, realistically speaking would anyone ver get in a craft 
with that minimal (minimal ha! none) of a safety margin
Still, great story

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 17:39:46 +0000
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #458

Glenn Grant wrote:
> >At that speed, unless it is a AP round, it won't *matter* if it hits
> >flesh or bone. Take a good look at what a .223 caliber "varmint round"
> >does at 3000-5000 *feet* per second. Small animals like crows, gophers,
> >maybe even rabbits turn into a cloud of grease. Watermelons turn into
> >mush.
> Thanks. Will remember this next time I am attacked by crows, gophers,
> rabbits and watermelons.

Ok fine you laugh now, but you just wait til the reckoning of the Rabbits, Crows, 
Gophers and Watermelons, then you will pay....

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #464
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Traveller-digest        Saturday, 28 September 1996    Volume 1996 : Number 465

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: jack on this
         2. Re: Naval Bases
         3. Re: Deck Plans: What Next?
         4. Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues
         5. Re: Inspirational Reading - SF
         6. Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues
         7. New Traveller Page!
         8. Re: Pirates (was Traveller-digest V1996 #446)
         9. Re: Subsector Maps
        10. RE: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues
        11. RE: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues
        12. Minor glitch w/skill improvement?
        13. RPSC: Movement proposal
        14. Shadows Plans Updated
        15. Re: New Traveller Page!
        16. Re: Parachutes
        17. RPSC Facing Suggestion
        18. T4 to Brilliant Lances
        19. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #458
        20. Traveller Stuff For Sale
        21. Hardcovers in Mississippi

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 17:48:14 +0000
Subject: Re: jack on this

DJessup938@aol.com wrote: 
> The reason behind the suggestion of some form of psycosis with
> cybertechnology i think is due to the interface between the persons brain and
> thier cyber parts. Remember we are refuring to an itnterface that connects
> complex neural transmitted messages to an electrical and mechanical part. 

No other side effects other than twitching a lot during thunderstorms

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 17:50:40 +0000
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

Does anybody on this mailing list know the formulas for TCS...
I could use them, and I believe Mr Dowgiallo could to

Appreciate any help

------------------------------

From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 15:54:41 -0600
Subject: Re: Deck Plans: What Next?

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> Being currently laid up with the flu/cold (and unwilling to trust my judgement
> in marking papers when I have a stuffed head), I have a few hours spare time
> this weekend.  Which deckplan should I work on next?

I desperately need deckplans for both the corsair and the yacht
before next week (October 5th).  Can you do them and save me the 
time?
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Systems Administrator
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 14:05:54 -0700
Subject: Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> > It's ... weird ... to  realize that I've been playing this game for 17
> years.
> 
> Yrk.  I bought Traveller when it was first published.  Freak my students out
> to realize that I've had this hobby longer than most of them have been alive.
>  They think it's wierd, I just feel old...

Same here. I've been in this hobby longer than most of my _adult_ players have been 
alive; started playing AH wargames in '68 -- almost thirty years ago, and I'm 37. I 
also have teens in this game who are younger than CT, too ;)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormmhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 14:19:19 -0700
Subject: Re: Inspirational Reading - SF

Joe Block wrote:
<<deletia>>
> 
> I'm surprised that Pournelle isn't being mentioned more often - John
> Christian Falkenberg is a major inspiration to me for Mercenary campaigns.
> Prince of Mercenaries is especially relevant in a year 0 campaign.

I've gotta agree here. Pournelle's entire Falkenberg "series" is excellent fodder for 
even an _Imperial_ campaign what with the CoDominium and the relevant Laws of War. 

How 'bout SM Stirling's _Go Tell The Spartans_?

The major literary inspiration in my RC campaign was _Starship Troopers_. I made it 
_required reading_ for my players much the same way muchkin D&Ders make the Forgotten 
Realms and DragonLance novels important guides to orienting the 
players. They grew to appreciate power armor and meteoric assaults! I also drew upon the 
two novels GDW managed to publish for direct inspiration, and FASA's _BattleTech_ for a 
fine old time on the Viral hell of Promise (a Virus-controlled BattleMech, anyone?).

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 14:02:23 -0700
Subject: Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues

Joe Walsh wrote:
<<massive deletia>>
> 
> Nah, you're probably right.  Although T4 has sold well, it is probably
> true that many, many of today's gamers look at it and become disgusted at
> the old-fashioned approach IG has taken.  "What, no clans?  No drawings
> of scantily clad women?  No supernatural beings?  Aaarrrghh!"  Heck, the
> lack of the "grunge" feel will probably turn a lot of people off, too.

A Wolfie's reaction to Traveller (I was there!):

"What? No Nature/Demeanor rules? No Merits and Flaws? And I wanna play a suffering 
_Artist_, not some kind of technogeek driving a space-truck! 'Pay the Bills or Starve,' 
my ass! I wanna wear lots of black, look cool and rip throats!"

Nuff said. There _is_ a generation gap in the hobby. 

Well, for those sf gamers looking for pretention in their sfrpg, the Kings of Pretense, 
White Wolf, are going to produce a series of sf storytelling-type games starting next 
year. All I can say is: be afraid; be very afraid.

The disgusting details are on the Wolfie's web page. I won't pollute the TML with it's 
URL; if you want to see it, fine.

There's also another product out already: _Fading Suns_. _FS_ is by a couple of 
ex-Wolfies. It is full of World of Darkness-like factions (clans), history/background, 
and the same kind of stuff you'd see in a WW game (yep, I've played Those Games -- just 
so I could have an _informed opinion_ of them). Technology is gone over very lightly, as 
are ships and the other hardware so beloved of Trav fans; the focus is on people. Space 
travel is via stargates. There is an Imperium that makes our beloved(?) Third Imperium 
of 1116 looks like One Big Happy Family. Religion is a significant factor; the Church is 
as riddled with factions as the nobility. The feel I get is one that resonates with me, 
that of Byzantium. A powerful empire built on the ruins of an earlier, greater 
Empire, one wracked with dissention within and threatened by alien invasion while a Dark 
Age threatens the galaxy.

The mechanics of FS _very closely_ resemble those of the Storyteller System. If you 
don't know the system -- good for you.
> 
> Oh, well.
> 
> Soap Box Mode OFF
> 
> BTW, I'm not implying that YOU want those things (clans, etc.).  It's clear
> that you want a product that has more Travelleresque background in the main
> rulebook, not a bunch of garbage added on to attract the White Wolf
> crowd.  You just happened to give me an opening to go off on a rant, and
> I was bad and took it. :)

Sexist, pornographic, art-for-art's sake garbage? ;)

> 
> Hopefully my response wasn't all that difficult to suffer through. :)

Joe, I never suffer when I see your name on a post. Very illuminating ;)


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 16:00:04 -0800
Subject: New Traveller Page!

Hello,

Everyone, my Traveller page, Traveller@Dragonfire, has finally gone
operational, it's been in the planning abd buidling stages since June :)

I've taken some stuff that's appeared on TML, and credited the author, but,
if you see something you did, and don't want it on their, tell me, and it'll
be removed.

Right now, there's the Pirates career and The Pirates of Penzanz adventure
by Allen Shock.  Water for the Deserts by Micheal Koehne, as well as some
starships made by myself, Peter Miller (no relation to Marc :)

The URL is http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

If any of the links don't work properly, tell me, as I'll want to know :)

Thanks, and enjoy the site, comments are appreciated

BTW, it's text-browser friendly!  Very friendly!

_______________________________Peter John Miller
"Touch 'em all Joe, you'll never hit a bigger one that that!"
  - Tom Cheek, 1993 World Series
- ------------------------------------------------
http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/  -- Homepage Selection
http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/ -- Traveller


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 28 Sep 1996 18:57:11 GMT
Subject: Re: Pirates (was Traveller-digest V1996 #446)

>Pirates aren't going to be equipped to remove powerplants and
>computers, they'd have to take the whole ship. And that's not worth it.

Why not?  Given the high cost of ships and ship components, I would assume
that pirates _would_ remove the more valuable bits, unless they were
deliberately leaving the ship intact so that they could steal from it again
in the future.  Even if the whole power plant or computer isn't worth/easy to
remove, some bits of it will be. (I've had the strangest stuff stolen from my
lab!)  

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 15:25:02 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Subsector Maps

Moin Joe Block,

> Does anyone have a postscript/eps/pdf file of a subsector map?  I just ran
> out and got a softcover T4, and could use a blank.  I'd use the one from CT
> except I lost all my CT stuff in Hurricane Andrew.

	It would also be nice to have a Postscript subsector header
	file, so that a :

		cat traveller_sub.ps lunion.sec | lpr

	would print a subsector. As anybody written such a postscript
	program ?  Or has anybody written a C program which converts
	a dgp subsector to postscript ?

	The first one would be more portable, as the header interprets
	the dgp file to draw the hexes. But the later would also be
	ok.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 96 00:00:32 UT
Subject: RE: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues

Rich Ostero said:
>Joe Walsh wrote:
>> Nah, you're probably right.  Although T4 has sold well, it is probably
>> true that many, many of today's gamers look at it and become disgusted at
>> the old-fashioned approach IG has taken.  "What, no clans?  No drawings
>> of scantily clad women?  No supernatural beings?  Aaarrrghh!"  Heck, the
>> lack of the "grunge" feel will probably turn a lot of people off, too.
>
>A Wolfie's reaction to Traveller (I was there!):
>
>"What? No Nature/Demeanor rules? No Merits and Flaws? And I wanna play >a 
suffering 
>_Artist_, not some kind of technogeek driving a space-truck! 'Pay the Bills 
or >Starve,' 
>my ass! I wanna wear lots of black, look cool and rip throats!"
>
>Nuff said. There _is_ a generation gap in the hobby. 

<grin>  I ref'd _one_ session with a couple of bohemian-types, y'know what I'm 
talking about, goatees, body-piercing, lots of D&D, Ars Magica and "Vampire 
the Mass-Parade" playing.  I like it when my players add some input into the 
game (I think someone called it "cooperative GM'ing" or somesuch).  Anyway, 
these guys so defined their characters that I found myself making massive 
changes to the scenario just to oblige them.  I may be an old fart, but I'm 
just not that used to wholesale sharing of background development with the 
players.  I usually like to create a scenario and drop them into it to see 
what they do.  What these guys wanted was to help develop the story themselves 
- -- it was wierd and not much fun.  We played an adventure, but definitely not 
the one I spent so much time developing.

I like the players to assist, but their suggestions and additions usually fit 
in the the game.

>There's also another product out already: _Fading Suns_. _FS_ is by a couple 
>of 
While I have played no WW games, I know exactly what you mean.  It gives you 
the idea that you are in the same (dark) universe with the same trappings:
>ex-Wolfies. It is full of World of Darkness-like factions (clans), 
>history/background, <snip>
etcetera...

Yep, one of the guys wanted to work for a "house" (read: clan) and I gave a 
concession allowing him to work for a mega-corp.  He wanted to have all these 
special weapons and skills that, frankly, he wanted to lift right out of 
Cyber-punk.  It's also difficult to play with folks that are constantly 
comparing the various internal systems (combat, chargen, etc.) with those of 
other games.  I was distracted from actually "jacking in" to the game itself 
by the complaining, etc.  The other guy wanted to play a character who was in 
an organization that was a cross between the Cosa Nostra and, uh those 
Japanese gangs, I forget what they're called.  Before I knew it, we were 
sitting around the table speaking in our New York/Italian accents and using 
every cliche in the book.  (it _was_ fun, but that's beside the point...)  
;-)>

>that of Byzantium. A powerful empire built on the ruins of an earlier, 
greater 
>Empire, one wracked with dissention within and threatened by alien invasion 
>while a Dark Age threatens the galaxy.

Those sorts of things just would fit in my Traveller backdrop.  Part of the 
enjoyment is that there is no "cosmic" scale threats (except maybe 
taxation--<g>).  That is why I've ignored activity on that scale since I 
recieved the JTAS issue about the 5th Froniter War and all subsequent events 
after that. 

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 96 00:02:14 UT
Subject: RE: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues

Rich Ostorero said:

>The mechanics of FS _very closely_ resemble those of the Storyteller >System. 
If you don't know the system -- good for you.

Arrgh, storytelling!   <pulls out a cross and holds it up to monitor>

> rulebook, not a bunch of garbage added on to attract the White Wolf
> crowd.  You just happened to give me an opening to go off on a rant, and
> I was bad and took it. :)

Sexist, pornographic, art-for-art's sake garbage? ;)

Bravo to Marc Miller for for Goal # 5 !!! <applause>   :-)>

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 20:34:12 -0400
Subject: Minor glitch w/skill improvement?

At the start of p157, the rules say that one improves skills at levels 7 or
above by casting 1D6 = 6, then casting 1D6 and adding 6 to the latter, equal
to or greater than the current skill level to improve the skill by 1 level.
Actually, the rules say it a bit more clearly than that...

Anyway, as the 2nd die roll will ALWAYS be one or greater, the result is
that the chance to go skill level 7 is the same as that to get to skill
level 6 (e.g., a 6 on the first die roll) and all higher skill levels are
attained at 1 pip less on the die than they *should* be wrt the 1st 6 levels...

Suggestion:  Add 5 to the 2nd die roll (instead of 6) to keep things consistent.

This is admittedly a VERY minor glitch, as I don't imagine there being too
many PCs with level 7+ skills, but I thought you might like to know...

- - Bill


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 22:20:12 -0400
Subject: RPSC: Movement proposal

My proposal for alterations to the movement system is as follows:

MOVEMENT PHASE
        During the Movement Phase, the side losing initiative moves their
ships as per the movement rules. Then the side that won initiative moves theirs.
        Another option would be to allow the winner of initiative to choose
whether to move first or last.

FIRING PHASE
        Weapons fire is performed according to initiative order; the winner
attacks first, followed by the loser. I do not advocate choice here,
especially if firing is not simultaneous; I can see no situation where
firing last would be advantageous.

In fact, each phase should be performed by both ships, rather than Task
Force A doing all their stuff and Task Force B doing all theirs. Everybody
moves, everybody performs sensor tasks, everybody fires. This reduces the
boredom factor of waiting for some slow guy to finish his complete turn
before you get to do anything.

                                Allen


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 28 Sep 1996 21:57:00 GMT
Subject: Shadows Plans Updated

In response to several requests, I've included overview plans for the levels
in the Shadows adventure.  I've also finished entering descriptions for each
location (even those without detailed plans yet).  The plans, as always, are
at:

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GaminfClub/Traveller/Shadows.html

If this flu clears up, I'll be able to translate the remaining rooms from
SuperPaint to GIF at work on Monday. Of course, given that I teach from
08h45-22h00, I may not have the energy to upload them Monday night, but they
should get up sometime this week.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 21:16:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: New Traveller Page!

On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Peter Miller wrote:

> Everyone, my Traveller page, Traveller@Dragonfire, has finally gone
> operational, it's been in the planning abd buidling stages since June :)

I was just there, and it looks really nice!  And a 25-screenful adventure 
(to be continued, even!) to boot!  Nice work on the adventure, Allen, by the 
way.


> BTW, it's text-browser friendly!  Very friendly!

Yes, it is, and I appreciate that...a LOT!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 28 Sep 1996 22:11:24 GMT
Subject: Re: Parachutes

>B) I remember reading that the Russians during the heights of winter would
>bundle paratroops in the slowest flying aircraft they could find and the
>planes would swoop in as low and slow as they could and the troops would
>jump off into the snow drifts...
>
>It sounds almost unbelieveable but still reasonably plausible in a crisis
>situation.

My friend Ian has a book about Gurkhas, in which the following stories are
recounted:


A British officer, in charge of training some Gurkhas for a parachute drop,
was pleased to find a film in the base, so he showed it one evening.
Unfortunately, he hadn't previewed it first...  The opening scene showed
hoards of men leaping from airplanes, while a voiceover recounted "A
parachute attack. If you do your job properly, not one of these men will
reach the ground alive." and went on to describe all the ways to kill
parachutists.  Fortunately the Gurkhas' command of plummy English wasn't so
good, they all signed up for parachute training because it looked like jolly
good fun!

Another British officer called for volunteers for a night raid, explaining
that it would be dangerous because they would be jumping from 300'.  The
entire unit volunteered, but the senior NCO ventured that the men would feel
better if the plane was flying at 100'. When the officer explained that the
parachutes needed time to open, the Gurkha NCO replied "Ah, parachutes. You
didn't tell us about the parachutes."

Then there's the story of an enlisted Gurkha who was separated from his unit
in the jungle and left "missing presumed dead". Not being dead, he set off to
rejoin his unit at their base camp, which was over a nasty range of
mountains.  When he arrived amid shouts of surprise, he explained that he
hadn't been worried because, like the officer, he had a map to follow, and
proudly produced a plan of the London Underground!

There's no unit like the Gurkhas for insane bravery, or (one suspects)
maintaining their reputation at the expense of their officers.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 28 Sep 1996 22:22:39 GMT
Subject: RPSC Facing Suggestion

I don't like the idea of facing equalling direction of movement (if that's
what is meant) - it removes some of the 'space' element and makes things seem
more like an air battle.  But then, I didn't like the battle scenes in Star
Wars, either, for the same reason: felt like a WW2 air dogfight.

At the cost of an extra counter per ship (not a problem with only a few
ships), this can be fixed.

The ship model represents current position, with its nose pointing in the
direction the ship is facing.  A future position counter represents the
ship's position next turn.  If the ship thrusts (changes the location of its
future position counter) then it must face in the direction of the thrust.

You do not need a past position counter (and we never bothered using them),
just use a die to mark model location, put model on future position counter,
project future position, remove die, and then thrust if desired.  The past
position counter just clutters up the playing area.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 28 Sep 1996 22:24:49 GMT
Subject: T4 to Brilliant Lances

Does anyone have a simple algorithm for converting T4 ship designs to
Brilliant Lances and Battle Rider stats, or am I stuck with redesigning the
ships to make the conversion?

------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 21:31:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #458

At 10:34 PM -0400 9/27/96, Phillip McGregor wrote:
>hands. Presumably a lot of Naval vessels that are basically freighters
>will also be sold off into private hands when the navy decides that it
>wants something newer and shinier - but, naval maintenance standards being
>higher than civilian ones, they will be a significant bargain to anyone
>who wants to buy them for civilian use.

And of course, the fact that they're designed to take more damage than
civilian craft is a plus for folks trading on the frontier.  And while they
may disarmed, they do have hardpoints built in with power and data runs in
place, making it easier to add armaments later.

Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

A friend is someone you can call to help you move.  A best friend is
someone you can call to help you move a body.



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 22:58:18 -0500
Subject: Traveller Stuff For Sale

Well, I happened to find a wonderful store today.  Zocchi's is our local
game distributor/store.  I found lot's of neato stuff including the following...

     * Nearly every TNE book ever created.
     * A few MT books.
     * A few CT books (mostly adventures, but a couple of Scouts and others).
     * Challenge Magazine (around #40-#60, I think).
     * A couple of Traveller Digest Magazines.
     * Some TNE Miniatures (RAFM, I think).
     * Some Judges Guild stuff.
     * Some FASA Stuff.

Now, I have two questions...

1.  What should I be on the look out for to add to my collection?  (IE, what
is good?)

2.  Is there anything I can pick up for anyone and mail to you?  (Or if you
want a price first, I can do that too.)  eMail to:  tiger@datasync.com

I usually will only get to go to the store on the weekends, but the items
they had, they had a number of each one (they are a distributer after all).
Just as an example, I got one of the GDW books I have been looking for,
_Rebellion Sourcebook_ for under $15.00.


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 22:58:15 -0500
Subject: Hardcovers in Mississippi

Well, the Hardcovers made it to the Armpit of the Gulf Coast today.  Here in
Gulfport (well, sortof), Mississippi  I got a nicely sealed Priority Mail
package with a beautiful T4 Hardcover in it (along with an errata sheet).
I'm glad to have it, but I really want to see Starships and JTAS.  IIRC, Don
Perrin said a while back that Starships wouldn't be ready to go out till the
end of September, so it may be a week or so before we see them.

Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #465
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Traveller-digest         Sunday, 29 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 466

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. T4 TL questions/observations
         2. Re: Traveller Stuff For Sale
         3. Sheet trouble?
         4. More T4 Qs/Obs
         5. Re: Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL
         6. Re: Tramp ships
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #458
         8. Re: Orbital, graveyards...
         9. Re: Parachutes
        10. Re: Favourite SF novels
        11. Re: Pirates (was Traveller-digest V1996 #446)
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446
        13. Australian Mirror of Project Dulinor open
        14. T4 in Dallas
        15. Re: T4 TL questions/observations
        16. T4: NJ
        17. Re: Deck Plans: What Next?
        18. Re: New Traveller Page!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 21:46:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: T4 TL questions/observations

     After spending the past few days perusing the T4 softback that I
eventually broke down and purchased (2 days before the HBs shipped, but
I'm not bitter because I realized that the people who mentioned the benefits
of having two copies- one to trash, one to keep nice, had a point), I've
got a couple of questions/observations about TL's as presented.
     Firstly, I'm working on the assumption that the 3I in year 0 is at
TL12 with a little bit of TL13, and that TL14+ are extremely rare to
nonexistent.  If I've misunderstood something, please set me straight.
     The first issue is the Random PC Homeworld Generation tables, which
will have a significant portion of PCs coming from TL13+ worlds (I don't 
have the book in front of me to quote from, but the straight 2D roll goes
up to 12=TL 15 with numerous +DMs).  How does this mesh with the Milieu 0
setting, with its lower technology base?
     The second issue (same page) concerns the fact that PCs at TL7+ get
automatic skill in Grav Vehicle.  This isn't a simple typo 'cause it's
repeated at least one other place.  Unless I've missed some pretty major
scientific advances in recent years, we don't have Grav Vehicles in RL, and
yet the US in 1996 is TL8 in most other areas.
     Then we come to the world generation chapter.  Admittedly, I haven't
looked too carefully at the chart, but it seems to be pretty much the same
as the standard CT/MT one, which produces worlds up to TL15, with occasional
TL16 thrown in.  This raises the same issue as the Homeworld Generation chart.
     Also, on THAT same page, is the chart with "descriptive" TLs, which
(seemingly directly from "The Traveller Book") lists TL7 as 1970-1980, TL8
as 1980-1990, and TL9 as 1990-2000.  This HAS to be a sloppy editing
mistake, 'cause there's no way we're in mid-TL9, especially if Grav Vehicles
have been re-assigned to TL7 (or TL8 as in the Ground Vehicles chapter).  
The definitions need to be re-worded to something closer to what (IIRC) 
MT had, with TL7 c1970-1985, TL8 1985-2000, and TL9 "21st century".
     While I'm perfectly willing to write the last bit off as an editing
error, the other ones are a bit more problematic.  How should differing TLs
through history be reflected in the charts?  Should the referee, when
generating worlds, just decide to have TL13 be the absolute max, regardless
of dice results, should the charts be changed (which is really a non-solution
unless they plan to re-write them in every new Milieu book), or is there 
some other, obvious, solution that I'm just overlooking?  Has this been
raised already?  If so, feel free to ignore ('though if you could email me
a summary of what was resolved, that'd be great too).

Liking what I see, but strongly considering telling friends to wait
until the 2nd printing to buy it,

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 01:02:11 +0000
Subject: Re: Traveller Stuff For Sale

Paul Walker wrote:
> 1.  What should I be on the look out for to add to my collection?  (IE, what
> is good?)

the DGP alien books, Solomani and Aslan (rats and cats) and Vilani and Vargr (wogs 
and dogs)

------------------------------

From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@Communique.se>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 09:31:12 +0200
Subject: Sheet trouble?

	I have received a lot of mail concerning my ttneship.xlw file, telling me
it is defect. That is temporarily fixed by incorporating it into a zip
file. If it is not to much trouble you can download it again at the same
address. If you wait a few days i will be able to finnish the same file in
works format, for those of you who had tried to run it in their works..

	Sorry about the trouble
		Goran Sjoberg
	 %&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%
	% Name : Goran Sjoberg                   %
	& Email: NGC1201@Communique.se           &
	% Url  : Http://www.communique.se/goran  %
	%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 01:41:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: More T4 Qs/Obs

     Reading ahead since my last post, I happened to notice that, while the
intro to the Psionics chapter specifically mentions that Psionics are 
socially accepted in the early 3I, finding a Psionics Institute is just as
hard as in the 1100s.  Considering that we all (well, most of us) know all
about the Psionic Supressions and the [Hiver-type Manipulation, I can't think
of the specific word] therein, I began to wonder.  Is the book implying
that the Supressions weren't as big a deal as we've been previously led to
believe, and that psionic study was never very common or socially acceptable,
or is this just another case of game-balance-concerns combined with sloppy
editing?  If the former is the case, it's very interesting; if the latter
(which I fear probably is), well, I hate to say it, but it seems to be par
for the course.
     As an aside, I don't want to seem petty or clutter up the list with
what's essentially useless, but is someone at IG keeping a record of all 
the typos and incidental mistakes in the T4 rulebook?  For example, in the
discussion of the TAS in ch 10 it mentions that membership can be given out
to Naval and Marine characters.  Of course, it can also be given to Nobles,
Entertainers, Agents, and Rogues.  Nothing big that should cause anyone major
confusion or make the game less playable, but nevertheless stuff that should
really be cleaned up in later printings.
     Lastly, I got to wondering about T4 deck plans, such as will presumably
be included in "Starships" (and other future supplements).  Will they be
newly designed to match the ship illos by Chris Foss (and lend Milieu 0
distinction) or will they be reprints of the same things we've been seeing 
since "Traders and Gunboats"?  While presumably (hopefully!) it's too late
to do anything about "Starships," I want to state that I really hope for the
former: publishing sets of deck plans that are not only repeats but also
visually incompatible with the "official" ship designs would be a very bad
move by my reckoning.  I know that a lot of potential naysayers (on USENET
and possibly lurking here) are putting a lot of weight on "Starships" as
a measure of Quality Control and I don't want to see them given any freebies.
     Lest I begin to seem like one of those aforementioned naysayers, I'd like
to state for the record that, all typos and sloppy errors aside, I really
like the new book, and am particularly enamored with the char-gen system.  
I created a sample PC last night and had loads of fun seeing a wonderful
personality develop over the course of the die rolls (I don't know how good
a PC my college flunk-out, fired agent noble with high skills in Equestrian,
Fencing, and Carousing but mediocre in all other respects would be, but I
absolutely fell in love with him and plan to make him a recurring NPC if
nothing else!)

Viva Traveller!

Trent Smith
 

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 21:02:56 PST
Subject: Re: Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL

In mail you write:

> But I mailed in a credit card order for JTAS in early July, and nothing has
> shown up on my bill yet.  Either IG has lost my order, or the US Postal
> System has.  Has the same thing happened to anyone else?

It's against the law to charge your credit card if the item isn't
delivered in under 30 days. So the ethical mail order outfits don't
submit the charge until they ship the item.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 20:50:18 PST
Subject: Re: Tramp ships

In mail you write:

> Bruce Johnson said...
>
>>        The last time this came up on the list (I think it was sometime
>>around December 95), Andy Lilly (I believe it was him...) posted a
>>delightful TL-12 design for a Naval refuelling tanker called the
>>Orrimot...jump tapes, hamstercages and all.

<snip>

> I'm curious though: what are "jump tapes" and "hamstercages"?

Jump tapes are precalculated jumps between systems, available for a
small price. They let you make jumps with a computer system not capable
of doing jump calcs.

Hamstercages probably refers to rotating ship sections that provide
gravity via centrifugal force.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 20:36:13 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #458

In mail you write:

>> Yes and no. The Navy has huge "mothball fleets" on the off chance that
>> they might need the ships again. That's where the Iowa and New Jersey
>> had been sitting since the Korean War. Eventually, they decide that
>> ships are *too* obsolete and they scrap them.
>
> Interestingly, I believe that the US Navy *still* has a large "National
> Defence Reserve" fleet of (mainly) WW2 era Victory and Liberty ships in
> mothballs at various sites around the US. AFAIR, some of these vessels
> were to be reactivated for use in Desert Shield/Storm and actually were,
> tho I recall that some of the older ships took longer to reactivate than
> expected.

Those are slightly different. They are there so that the armed forces
can ferry troops and equipment overseas in time of war. It can't be
done via airlift, and we can't rely on what's left of the US merchant
marine fleet (we have *damn* few ships left with US registry, most have
foreign registry, and thus can't be nationalized in time of war).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 21:30:28 PST
Subject: Re: Orbital, graveyards...

In mail you write:

>>One *big* factor in favor of this is the fact that unlike on the
>>ground, stirage space in orbit is essentially "free". You park the
>>ships in a high orbit (so you don't need to worry about orbital decay
>>for a century or two. Tie them together loosely with cables, and hang
>>a radar beacon onto the mess.  Since orbital installations will be
>>common, you *won't* be in any of the "prime" locations, such as
>>synchronous orbit. But you'll be reachable without too much trouble
>>(maybe an hour or so in a low power shuttle).

> I would think a more suitable location would a LaGrange point around
> a planet or gas giant.  In this way the ships would be reasonably
> close at hand but far enough away to avoid them being in the way of
> regular system traffic.  Being in the LaGrange points they will tend
> to stay put and you wouldn't have to worry about orbital decay at
> all.

Only trouble is, the Lagrange points require either a *huge* moon, or
they are an orbital radius away. That's a long, long ways. For example,
the *Earth's* trojan points are 1 AU ahead and behind us in our orbit.
That's a long way to go at 6g, much less 1 g (28 hours at 6g).
Jupiter's are much farther.

And in systems where they are practical, they'll be valuable locations,
just like synchronous orbit is. So the junk yards won't be there.

Contrary to popular belief, most orbits are quite stable. As long as
there's no atmospheric drag, and it's something like a gas giant's moon
system (all those moons make the orbits of smaller object really
complex). 

> In fact it leads to some interesting adventure possibilities...  Hiding out
> from pursuit from Pirates/Authorities in the graveyard, transporting hulks
> from dirtside to storage, scavenging needed parts for a repair in an
> emergency, etc...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 22:00:55 PST
Subject: Re: Parachutes

In mail you write:

> A couple of things that I remember reading ten years ago about WWII was that:
>
> A) For at least a portion of the war the British did not equip their
> paratroops with a reserve parachute.  The cost/expense of a piece of
> equipment that was 99+% of the time not used was deemed to be a "luxury"
> and unnecessary considering the shortages of material at the time.  The
> lack of a reserve 'chute was deemed just another of the risks that the
> paratroops had to bear...
>
> Cold?  Yeah, but the Brit's apparently weren't the coldest...

There's a story about the Ghurka units in the British Army. Seems that
one time someone wanted to demonstrate how fearless they were, and
asked for volunteers to jump from a copter at 1000 feet. Only half the
Ghurkas volunteered. And the Sargeant Major (also a Ghurka) approached
the officer apologizing for the men, and asking if the altitude could
be lowered to 500 feet. The officer said "But that won't give you
parachutes time to open!" The Sar-Major brightened up and said "We get
parachutes? Then all the men volunteer, Sir!"

> B) I remember reading that the Russians during the heights of winter would
> bundle paratroops in the slowest flying aircraft they could find and the
> planes would swoop in as low and slow as they could and the troops would
> jump off into the snow drifts...

These days that's a *standard* trick. You open the back of a low flying
plane, fly along at 30 feet or less, over a semi-soft surface
(grasslands, bruch, etc) and jump and roll. 

It's *not* as hard as it sounds. I've jumped from a trailer that was
moving at 20 mph (or more) onto a gravel shoulder. My "protection" was
a heavy coat and a pair of jeans. I didn't even get bruised. With
training, it's not as bad as it sounds.

I've seen film of Navy Seals in full scuba gear jumping out of a
*moving* plane into the water. Likewise for Special Forces (or some
similar group) doing it from planes onto your typical scrublands.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 23:41:34 PST
Subject: Re: Favourite SF novels

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> One story that players and refs should read, just to get the feel of
>> what things were like *before* thruster plates is "The Cold Equations"
>> by Tom Godwin (I think that's the author's name).
>> The plot is quite simple. A young girl stows away on a one man courier
>> ship carrying something important (vaccine for a plague?). Only thing
>> is, the ship doesn't have enough fuel to match orbits and land at the
>> destination with her aboard, so say the cold equations of orbital
>> mechanics. Thus the title.
>> You'll have to read the story to find out how (or if) the problem is
>> solved.
>
> I read this story, only problem is, realistically speaking would
> anyone ver get in a craft with that minimal (minimal ha! none) of a
> safety margin

People do. It helps to remember two things. First, that it was an
*emergency* run. Folks willreally push saftety margins when doing
things like delivering badly needed medicine, or trying to rescue
someone. 

Second, I seem to recall that the ship did have a safety margin.
Unfortunately, that got used up during the *launch* thanks to the
stowaway. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 23:45:05 PST
Subject: Re: Pirates (was Traveller-digest V1996 #446)

In mail you write:

>>Pirates aren't going to be equipped to remove powerplants and
>>computers, they'd have to take the whole ship. And that's not worth it.
>
> Why not?  Given the high cost of ships and ship components, I would
> assume that pirates _would_ remove the more valuable bits, unless
> they were deliberately leaving the ship intact so that they could
> steal from it again in the future.  Even if the whole power plant or
> computer isn't worth/easy to remove, some bits of it will be. (I've
> had the strangest stuff stolen from my lab!)

It's sort of like hijacking a truck and stealing the engine. It's
messy, it takes time, it occupies a lot of space, and in the end, the
price you'd get for it isn't worth the hassles.

Also, there's the problem I only realized today. You have to *disable*
(destroy or at least badly damage) the drive to be able to board the
ship. That eliminates *that* from salvage considerations.

As for the powerplant, since it was kludged on later, first you have to
*find* it, then you have to determine how to "un-integrate" it from the
ship. Remember, this is a haywired rig.

On a more current ship, you've got the problem of removing the item.
The ship will have been built *around* the powerplant. 

The engines in a modern freighter are worth quite a bit. But they are
*not* worth the hassle of trying to get them out of the hull unless you
are at a shipyard. The parts that come loose easily are the *cheap*
things. The expensive parts are the massive gears, turbines, and
castings that hold things together.

And on the old relics I was talking about, for all a pirate knows, the
powerplant is some really weird thing the owner managed to scrounge out
of something else. Since the ship is in no way "standard", that kinda
changes the situation. You don't know *what* to expect. Picture
discovering that the powerplant is a bunch of radio-isotope
thermoelectric generator units. A typical unit like that has a power
output that drops by half over a 50 to 200 year period. If you are
crazy enough, you can reprocess the isotope filler from a bunch of old
ones to get enough "pure" isotope to get a few of them back to full
power. As long as you don't plan on *landing* the thing there won't be
any problems getting it certified. If you do, you have to get the
casing certified.

I can see the pirates looking at this mess, and all the "danger:
radioactive material" signs, as well as the radiation counter cheerily
ticking away, and deciding that they'll let the guy *keep* his
powerplant! :-)

Or maybe he's using the fusion equivalent of some of the "portable"
generators like the Army uses for field hospitals. It's worth a few
grand, but by the time you figure the price drop for selling on the
blackmarket, you are back to having a *lousy* profit margin. 

Pirates can't afford to make attacks that net only a few grand. It
won't pay expenses. But the tramp captains can afford to haul cargos
worth tens of thousands, because their expenses are so low. They are
just making enough to get by, and pay for parts (very, very *old*
parts). 

Remember that anything a pirate gets is going to get sold at about 10%
of actual value. And "bulk" cargoes aren't worth stealing. When was the
last time someone hijacked a truckload of *paper*? Alcohol, cigarettes,
designer jeans, *those* get hijacked.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 20:03:08 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #446

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Bri wrote:
>>  No, not at all. The fusion plants and computers alone would be worth
>> millinos.. And laser shots are praticley free. These would be *major*
>> pirate targets. And this is assuming that you woulden't wanna just jack
>> the entire ship, these would be *perfect* targets for up and coming
>> rebellions..
>
> Put a tiny laser on them. Even the threat of potentially EXPENSIVE damage
> to a would be corsair is often enough to deter routing piracy.  A small
> laser, one just big enough to do some damage, makes a potential target
> MUCH less desirable.

Actually, after thinking on it more, the drives/power plant are the
last thing the pirates would expect to salvage. Why? Because until they
knock out one or the other, how are they going to dock with the ship to
loot it?

*Destroying* a ship is easy. Merely disabling it is a lot harder. And
getting close to a ship that isn't disabled is a good way to get *your*
ship destroyed. There are an awful lot of cheap weapons that'll easily
kill a ship that has laid alongside you to board you.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 21:24:06 +1000
Subject: Australian Mirror of Project Dulinor open

This is to let you know that the mirror page of Jo Grant's Traveller 
Suite is now open.

http://www.ar.com.au/~dtadams/traveller/index.html

Can people please test the pages and inform me of any errors.

As well, I have tested some of PD on OS/2 , and it looks grat and is 
stable (almost) on OS/2 in a WinOS/2 session. More details to follow,



>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 07:18:31 -0700
Subject: T4 in Dallas

FYI...My signed copy arrived yesterday with an errata sheet and, yes, it
was worth the wait. Anybody hear when the new JTAS is supposed to ship?

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 09:23:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 TL questions/observations

On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Trent Smith wrote:

>      While I'm perfectly willing to write the last bit off as an editing
> error, the other ones are a bit more problematic.  How should differing TLs
> through history be reflected in the charts?  Should the referee, when
> generating worlds, just decide to have TL13 be the absolute max, regardless
> of dice results, should the charts be changed (which is really a non-solution
> unless they plan to re-write them in every new Milieu book), or is there 
> some other, obvious, solution that I'm just overlooking?  Has this been
> raised already?  If so, feel free to ignore ('though if you could email me
> a summary of what was resolved, that'd be great too).

Trent,

Remember that the T4 rule book is meant to be used with /all/ milieux, 
not just Milieu 0.  You should either apply some DM's to the various 
tables, or design new ones (perhaps, as you said, each milieu book will 
have its own set of such tables).

Like you, I don't believe these are fodder for errata.  It was 
intentional, as limiting the tables to TL12 would have made the book 
geared only to one milieu.  Since it covers TL's up to at least the Virus 
era, the T4 rule book will mesh nicely with many, many milieux to come.

Hope this helps.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 11:13:21 -0400
Subject: T4: NJ

Greetings:

The hardcovers hit Franklin Park, NJ for real this time--no singing Elvis's,
no men in black, just the US Snail...

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)



------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 02:03:38 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Deck Plans: What Next?

Moin Erwin Fritz,

> I desperately need deckplans for both the corsair and the yacht
> before next week (October 5th).  Can you do them and save me the 
> time?

	I realy like his 3d drawing, but I prefer more technical
	looking plans. I'm also working on some deck plans (using XFig,
	transfig2gif and Netscape as a viewer) and I have an old
	deckplan for a Yacht form an old german fanzine. I think its CT.

	BTW CT, I'm just working on the Marava and the Jayhawk 200t
	far trader, they have nearly the same design, but are quite
	different (if you compare Traders&Gunboats and Guilded Lily)

	Are there any other "canon" Jayhawk/Marava deckplans than
	these two.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 02:37:09 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: New Traveller Page!

Moin Peter Miller,

> Everyone, my Traveller page, Traveller@Dragonfire, has finally gone
> operational, it's been in the planning abd buidling stages since June :)

	nice to hear.

> Right now, there's the Pirates career and The Pirates of Penzanz adventure
> by Allen Shock.  Water for the Deserts by Micheal Koehne, as well as some
> starships made by myself, Peter Miller (no relation to Marc :)

	As "Water for the deserts" is not really finished yet.
	I would prefer if you make a link to my site, its
	on www.hb.north.de at hosts/bakunin/traveller/Ianic.2.html.

	Probately It'll get a number 3 soon, and of course you
	are invited to improve it ;-)

> The URL is http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/traveller/

	Its on my list now !

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #466
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Traveller-digest         Sunday, 29 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 467

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Lib Data, Kiwi noise, Gauss recoil, Weird UWP's
         2. Re: Deck Plans: What Next?
         3. Re: Lib Data, Kiwi noise, Gauss recoil, Weird UWP's
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #460
         5. Re: Lib Data, Kiwi noise, Gauss recoil, Weird UWP's
         6. T4 Armour Question
         7. Re: Re: Deck Plans: What Next?
         8. Re: T4 to BL/BR conversion (Td V96#465)
         9. Re: Naval Bases
        10. Re: Minor glitch w/skill improvement?
        11. More problems found in the T4 rulebook :-(
        12. More need for errata...
        13. More errata for T4
        14. My T4 review/rant... (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 02:20:58 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Lib Data, Kiwi noise, Gauss recoil, Weird UWP's

Moin David Jaques-Watson,

> I found this out when typing it all (well, most of it) onto the Amiga five
> years ago. Belive me, I _know_.

	do you have them still ?
	are there publicated anywhere in the net ?

> Tom Ellis said:
> >Nobody ever said a gauss weapon was low recoil, they are quieter than
> chemical powered
> 
> Maybe not in TNE, but the gauss rifle was _the_ weapon of choice in
> MegaTraveller. One reason was that is was low recoil. I though that was due
> to in-built recoil compensators (this is a TL 12+ rifle, after all).

	Nobody ever said that these "no recoil" gaus will fire
	very fast, small needles can often be deadly without
	much mass or starting velocity.

> UPP: Vior/Egryn/Trojan Reach     0805 X500401-1

	the explenation is hard but the location is wrong ;-(

		Vior 1605 X500401-1 Va Ni 301 Aslan M4 V

	I think these 30000 cats are hot

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 09:55:18 -0600
Subject: Re: Deck Plans: What Next?

Michael Koehne wrote:
> 
>         I realy like his 3d drawing, but I prefer more technical
>         looking plans. I'm also working on some deck plans (using XFig,
>         transfig2gif and Netscape as a viewer) and I have an old
>         deckplan for a Yacht form an old german fanzine. I think its CT.
> Is it in a format you could post?

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Systems Administrator
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com


------------------------------

From: John Macek <macek@erols.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 12:27:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Lib Data, Kiwi noise, Gauss recoil, Weird UWP's

Michael Koehne wrote:

> 
> > Tom Ellis said:
> > UPP: Vior/Egryn/Trojan Reach     0805 X500401-1
> 
>         the explenation is hard but the location is wrong ;-(
> 
>                 Vior 1605 X500401-1 Va Ni 301 Aslan M4 V
> 

I wouldn't say Tom is wrong, just old fashioned, like myself.  He's using the 
location of Vior as given in CT Adventure 4 Leviathan.  Hex 0805 would be it's 
position on the subsector map of Egyrn, as opposed to 1605 for it's location in the 
sector. 

Ensign John

- -- 
"Ensign" John Brent Macek, Coast Survey Nautical Cartographer 
"For Strephon's Breast He aim'd his Dart, and watch'd him as he came;
He cry'd and shot him thro' the Heart, Thy Blood shall quench my Flame."
Lines from an old Terran song, circa -2800 Imperial

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 96 17:34 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #460

In-Reply-To: <9609271947.AA18134@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #452

Why do I always seem to get two(2) copies of email from Andrew Boulton? 
 
How can I stop it?  I don't think I get duplicates from anyone else. >>

My dumb software insists on sending it to both traveller and 
traveller-digest, and I don't always remember to delete one of the 
addresses (I got it this time!)

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 13:08:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Lib Data, Kiwi noise, Gauss recoil, Weird UWP's

That is a misquote, I was not the one who said anything about Vior.

On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, John Macek wrote:

> Michael Koehne wrote:
> 
> > 
> > > Tom Ellis said:
> > > UPP: Vior/Egryn/Trojan Reach     0805 X500401-1
> > 
> >         the explenation is hard but the location is wrong ;-(
> > 
> >                 Vior 1605 X500401-1 Va Ni 301 Aslan M4 V
> > 
> 
> I wouldn't say Tom is wrong, just old fashioned, like myself.  He's using the 
> location of Vior as given in CT Adventure 4 Leviathan.  Hex 0805 would be it's 
> position on the subsector map of Egyrn, as opposed to 1605 for it's location in the 
> sector. 
> 
> Ensign John
> 
> -- 
> "Ensign" John Brent Macek, Coast Survey Nautical Cartographer 
> "For Strephon's Breast He aim'd his Dart, and watch'd him as he came;
> He cry'd and shot him thro' the Heart, Thy Blood shall quench my Flame."
> Lines from an old Terran song, circa -2800 Imperial
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Paul Harris <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 03:17:51 +1100
Subject: T4 Armour Question

Hi all,
I first started playing Traveller in about '83, and have seen all the 
incarnations it has gone through. 
Naturally, I had to buy T4, but I have a question about the armour 
values, and I'm hoping someone can clear it up for me.
Are the armour values for personal armour, vehicle armour and starship 
armour all the same scale? If they are, does this rally mean that I can 
blow holes through the skin of a Free Trader , armour value 0, with
a body pistol?
I ask because eventually my players will be asking me what happens
when they try to shoot down ships with hunting rifles.

Harry the signatureless.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 29 Sep 1996 13:12:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Deck Plans: What Next?

>I desperately need deckplans for both the corsair and the yacht
>before next week (October 5th).  Can you do them and save me the 
>time?

Sorry, Fritz, but I'm unlikely to _finish_ anything before next week.  I
typically have an hour or so a week for drawing deck plans - just happened to
have a few more this weekend (which is, alas, nearly gone).

I guess I'm trying to get a consensus on which order to draw the ships in
(keeping in mind I'll be using the CT/MT/TNE plans, not T4 which doesn't have
any yet).  I'd like my first product to be useful to the most people.
(Shadows is useful, but only for one adventure.)

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 96 13:57:41 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 to BL/BR conversion (Td V96#465)

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:
> Does anyone have a simple algorithm for converting T4 ship designs to
> Brilliant Lances and Battle Rider stats, or am I stuck with redesigning the
> ships to make the conversion?

Most of the stuff is the same; here's some information to get you started;
if you need more, don't hesitate to e-mail me (or the GDW-Beta list) with
more specific questions (please don't just post to the TML and hope that I'll
see it; I frequently just skim the TML if I'm busy).

Armor: Divide the T4 armor value by 10 to get the Battle Rider armor value.
You can use the Brilliant Lances -> Battle Rider conversion chart to get an
idea of what the Brilliant Lances armor values are.  If you want specific BL
armor values for the hulls, here they are - from my QSDS spreadsheet:

Config	MaxG	Armor	StdTons
2 S	2	20	100
1 S	4	40	100
2 A	6	60	100
6 S	2	20	200
4 S	1	10	200
3 S	4	40	200
1 S	6	120	200
6 S	4	40	300
3 A	1	10	400
1 A	3	30	400
2 U	6	120	400
8 S	4	40	500
3 S	2	20	600
0 U	1	10	700
6 A	1	10	800
5 U	2	200	800
5 S	4	80	800
3 U	2	20	900
1 S	3	30	1000
1 A	6	60	1000
0 U	1	10	2000
8 A	4	80	2000
7 U	2	20	3000
4 U	1	10	4000
2 U	4	40	5000

Sensors: The sensor ratings (A# P# J#) are the BL/BR short ranges of the
Active EMS, Passive EMS, and Jammers respectively.  The hull size
restriction on the sensors was fudged to make the length and area work out
"about right" most of the time.

Computers and Electronics: Avionics and computers appropriate to the TL of
the rest of the design are included.  "Military" avoinics includes
fiber-optic computers; civilian ones don't.  The communicators suites all
include a radio (30kkm for basic and improved, 1kAU for advanced), a laser
(1kAU, basic and advanced only), and maser (1kAU for improved, two of them
for advanced).

Weapons: The weapons listings are all based on BL weapons (well, for the
most part), converted to Battle Rider with a mutated scheme.  First, the
weapon's damage value was found at 10, 20, 40, and 80 hexes.  If the weapon
was part of a multi-weapon battery, the damage was multiplied by the number
of weapons in the battery.  This value was converted to the Battle Rider
scale.  If the BR value was non-zero, then the ROF DM - 1 was added, and
that's the final value.

Here's a table from my spreadsheet, identifying the weapons and giving their
Brilliant Lances damage values at 10, 20, 40, and 80 hexes.

TL	Volume	Power	Area	Price	1.0 Ls	2.0 Ls	4.0 Ls	8.0 Ls
BB	10	6.806	20	11.46	39	26	13	7
CB	6	6.6665	20	3	39	30	15	7
B	3	2.2	10	2.08	20	0	0	0
C	3	2.66666	10	1.44	24	13	7	3
D	3	2.9	10	1.45	26	20	10	2
E	3	4.2	10	0.72	30	0	0	0
F	3	4.2	10	0.86	30	30	30	30

"BB" and "CB" mean TL-B Barbette and TL-C Barbette, respectively.

The Civilian lasers have ROF-50 (the low-powered ones at each TL) or
ROF-100.  The Military lasers are all ROF-100, and all batteries have a
beam Master Fire Director of the appropriate TL.

That should about do it -let me know if you have more questions!


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

From: hal@buffnet.net
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:22:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

At 05:50 PM 9/28/96 +0000, you wrote:
>Does anybody on this mailing list know the formulas for TCS...
>I could use them, and I believe Mr Dowgiallo could to
>
>Appreciate any help
>
Hello There,
  What specifically are you looking for from TCS?

Hal


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 13:24:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Minor glitch w/skill improvement?

On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Bill Rutherford wrote:

> At the start of p157, the rules say that one improves skills at levels 7 or
> above by casting 1D6 = 6, then casting 1D6 and adding 6 to the latter, equal
> to or greater than the current skill level to improve the skill by 1 level.
> Actually, the rules say it a bit more clearly than that...
> 
> Anyway, as the 2nd die roll will ALWAYS be one or greater, the result is
> that the chance to go skill level 7 is the same as that to get to skill
> level 6 (e.g., a 6 on the first die roll) and all higher skill levels are
> attained at 1 pip less on the die than they *should* be wrt the 1st 6
> levels...

Geez, I didn't even consider that.  Good catch!


> Suggestion:  Add 5 to the 2nd die roll (instead of 6) to keep things 
> consistent.

Makes sense to me.


> This is admittedly a VERY minor glitch, as I don't imagine there being too
> many PCs with level 7+ skills, but I thought you might like to know...

Definitely.  Thanks for posting that!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 10:30:20 +0200
Subject: More problems found in the T4 rulebook :-(

Hi!

Since I purchased the T4 rulebook yesterday I seem to have stumbled upon 
another omission not clarified in the official errata sheet.  In the 
chapter about World Generation at least one line seems to be missing from 
the Systems Contents Table.  The line for Naval Bases at the bottom of 
the table starts with 'Do not roll if starport C,' and suddenly ends.  
Obviously something was truncated.  What is missing?

Another thing I was wondering about?  Is there any time during a trip 
from one system to another when the Astrogation skill would be used (to 
plot the course or something like that)?  Currently it seems to be pretty 
useless...

Greetings from Germany,

				Thomas Biskup.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:30:40 +0200
Subject: More need for errata...

Hi!

And yet another list of things I'd like to have answered/covered in the 
errata:

* How is the target number for animal attacks calculated?

* Page 142, the section on Filters: 'ID' probably should have been
  '1D' (in other places it is possible to differentiate between a 1
  and an I, so why not here?).

* The last word on page 146 is lacking a '-'.

* The trade and commerce rules nowhere mention the standard brokerage
  fees.  The example makes me believe that the fees would be 5% per
  level of the broker -- is that correct?

And a few other questions suggestions for later supplements and/or
printings of the rules:

* Are there any simple mass combat rules available for Traveller
  (e.g. to quickly handle boarding attacks, ...)?  Considering that
  many pages were partially empty it probably could also be fitted
  into the basic rules.

* One overview map of the empire would have been nice to get a general
  impression about the Empire (similar to the one in the Empire
  boardgame [is this the correct name?  In only own the german version
  of it]).  I really believe that this would belong into the basic
  rulebook.

Greetings from Germany,

				Thomas Biskup.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 22:04:40 +0200
Subject: More errata for T4

Hi!

Today I finally bought my softcover T4 book in my local rpg shop (over 
here in Germany).  I'm currently reading it and having reached page 85 
would like to offer some more things to note in the errata:

On page 25 (right column, fourth term for Jamison) the example for the 
saving rolls for aging obviously is wrong.  In his fourth term Jamison is 
34, thus he'd have to roll against a 3 with 2d6.  Given the numbers in 
the example his trength would drop by 1 point.

On page 27 there is a minor typo in the table for the military academy: 
the perseverance entry says 'DM +2 if Int 9+5' -- the '+5' obbviously 
should be deleted.

On page 80 the weight for the laser rifle probably is a bit of (the text 
says that it weighs but 5 kg, which seems more appropriate).

Things I have been wondering about:

* How much can a character carry (I seem to remember reading Str times 5 
in kg but can't find it any more).

* What happens if a character with a non-military background is carrying 
more than Str * 2 in kg while in combat (or a character with military 
background carries more than Str * 3 in combat)?

* Where's the armor table?

* Why are there no more specific explanations for attribute values (e.g. to 
what social status does Soc value of 4 relate, ...)?  Very annoying.

I'll post my personal review and comments about the rules when I've 
finished reading everything.  Right now my feelings are somewhat mixed, 
since the rules editing is pretty sloppy and (as was mentioned previously 
on the TML) the rulebook seems to be lacking a lot of information 
necessary to be able to run a game "out of the box" (especially for 
newcomers).  Several sections (including equipment and background) are 
simply too vague/short.

Greetings from Germany,

				Thomas Biskup.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 



------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:29:09 +0200
Subject: My T4 review/rant... (long)

Hi!

This is a review of Mark Miller's Traveller (Traveller 4th Edition; in
this review it will be referred to as T4).  I wrote it while reading
the sourcebook and afterwards changed nothing so you get my first-hand
impressions.  Especially the IG crew might want to read it since it 
mentions some problems not yet covered in the current errata sheet.

Some facts about me, the reviewer, beforehand: in 1982 or 1983 I
played in a couple of Classic Traveller sessions, but the campaign
died due to a variety of reasons.  Since then I remember Traveller
fondly and always wanted to start a campaign of my own.  My first
attempt to do this was with Traveller: The New Era, but since I hated
both the background and the rules I nuked this idea.  Now T4 provides
another chance to go for it and I'm very excited about it.

First of all I'll summarize my general impressions (part 1) and
afterwards you'll be able to see my detailed comments and rants (part
2).  A summary concludes my review (part 3).


- --- PART 1: General Impression

LAYOUT: Overall very clean, if somewhat sober.  For me a clean layout
is more important than a stylish but confusing layout (White Wolf at
times comes to mind).  One minor quibble: the page number is displayed
at the bottom of the page in the center, which makes is a little more
difficult to search a certain page than necessary (you have to see a
larger part of the page while flipping through the book).  Displaying
them at the outer side of the page would have been a better choice
(and as far as I am concerned I like page numbers at the top of the
page but that's a nitpickers' detail).  Could have been done with
Winword the way it looks.
	In most (all?) sections the necessary tables are collected at
the end of the sections which at times makes it somewhat difficult
to reference them (especially since the tables are not numbered).  A
table of contents for the various tables would have been nice.  Also
this seems to be a modification applied in the later stages of
editing since some sections still refer to a table "on the next page"
(e.g. page 92, step 2).  Last but not least the tables are somewhat
arbitrarily ordered at times (not according to the order in which
they need to be referenced).
	Rating: 7 out of 10 (-1 for the page numbers and the missing
table index and -2 for placing the tables so far from the text where
they are referenced and the vague references [no tables numbers,
...]).

ARTWORK: I love the art of Chris Foss.  Great work.  I also was very
excited about Larry Elmore doing some of the interior illustrations
(he's my favorite fantasy artist), but to put it bluntly: I was
somewhat disappointed.  In contrast to his fantasy art the pictures in
several places lack a lot of detail and look like what I usually would
consider to be "better Elmore sketches", but not full-grown Elmore art
(e.g. the picture on p. 118 looks more like a good concept sketch for a
full-color picture than like a good B/W illustration).  At times Larry
still seems to have a little trouble with high-tech weapons (the rifle
on the picture on p. 93 is a bit bland, the gun in the hand of the
front guy on the picture on p. 131 looks like a toy gun).  This by far
does not mean that the art is bad or even mediocre -- it's just of a
little lower quality than I had expected from Larry Elmore.
	Also I'd have preferred to see some more B/W scenes taken from
Imperial cities, star ports, bars.  Generally more day-to-day scenes
giving a feel for the setting would have been nice.
	Besides that it was (as far as I am concerned) not necessary
to fill whole pages with those B/W illustrations.  This really makes
it look like an attempt to simply fill the 192 pages.
	Rating: 6 out of 10 (-2 for lacking flavor and detail, -1 for
being too large and -1 for not telling the complete story below the
B/W illustrations).

EDITING: Well, to put it carefully: the rulebook clearly proves that
it was put together in a hurry to be available for GEN CON.  There are
lots of mistakes (especially a lot of numbers seem to be wrong), there
is an annoying number of omissions and generally the editing could
have been a lot better.  Personal comment: although I was told that
Lester Smith is a very nice and competent guy who knows what he is
doing, the T4 rulebook shows the same editorial problems the Mythus
rules had (which also where edited by Lester).  I'm slowly starting to
doubt his capabilities as an editor.  Imperium Games really should
have a larger number of people (not directly related to the creation
of the book) proofread it.  Since Tony Lee was also involved in
editing I won't (and don't want to) blame Lester alone.  Anyways I
guess that they did what they could in the given time frame (based upon
what I heard about Lester's abilities and given the general competence
of the IG crew).  I just hope that the upcoming supplements will be
less error-riddled (otherwise IMHO the future might look pretty bleak
for Imperium Games which is something I would hate).
	Rating: 3 out of 10 (grammar and spelling mostly is ok, but
otherwise...).

RULES: The rules are pretty simple, in some cases overly simple.  I
see some potential problems with the combat system -- especially with
the overly simplified armor and damage rules.  Also it seems to be a
bit too unrealistic to make it impossible with a normal hit from a
revolver to even have an opponent lose consciousness (except by making
a called shot, which is a little hard for the average guy with a
gun).
	In some places a few more examples would have been nice,
although generally the rules are easy to understand (at least in
those cases when they are not obfuscated by one or more of the many
errors that slipped in).
	Also some things seem to be missing: how does drowning work,
how is falling damage calculated, how is fire damaged handled, how
does suffocation in general work?  All these things would have been
handy in case of spaceship emergencies and exploratory trips to new
worlds.
	The nice side of the rules is that they are simple to grasp,
don't involve a load of tables and also don't introduce special
rulings for a number of situations.
	Rating: 7 out of 10 (-1 for being a bit too simple at times,
- -1 for the missing rules, -1 for obfuscation due to bad editing).

COMPLETENESS: The rules lack a number of things and at times look like
a patchwork stitched together in a hurry.  A prime example of this are
the rules for vehicle and robot combat, which are unusable in their
current state.  Things I am generally missing from the rules are
complete and usable vehicle and robot combat rules, a simple system
for handling mass combat, a section on robots in general, rules for
suffocation, fire damage, damage from falls, starship crashes and
damage to character during space battles, a more sophisticated
equipment list and more background for a basic campaign.  The
subsector sheet is a nice example but a few words about the various
worlds (to have a place to start) would have been nice, too.
	The missing table and the missing subsector sheet didn't help
either.  The inclusion of two adventures is nice, but doesn't overcome
the other omissions.
	Rating: 3 out of 10.

PRICING: $25 for a 192 page rulebook with many B/W illustrations and a
few high-quality color inserts.  As far as I am concerned this is a
little too much (Feng Shui e.g. costs also something like $25 [or $30
at most] but has 256 pages, glossy high-quality paper and is
full-color throughout the book). $20 would have been more appropriate
in my humble opinion -- note that I have no idea about printing costs
but simply relate the quality and quantity of the product to the hole
it left in my purse.  Since more supplements are necessary (priced at
$20 a piece) to run a campaign using the Traveller background the cost
really seems to be a little too much.
	Rating: 4 out of 10.

- --- PART 2: Detailed Review

The detailed review will comment each section in the order they are
presented in the book (if I have to say something about it -- good or
bad):

The Foundations of the Traveller Universe
- -----------------------------------------
The whole section is pretty good except for one that that really
annoyed me: page 9 is about 60% empty and this space could have been
nicely used to expand the historical sections about the wars with
various alien races.  I barely remember which race is what from my old
Traveller days, but for a newcomer this simply will raise questions
and create confusion.  Each of the section really could have used one
or two sentences describing the alien race and it's basic nature, the
reason for the war and the outcome of the war (plus today
relationships to those races maybe).  This annoyed me somewhat.  An
old-time fan won't have a problem with this, but it's pretty annoying
in a basic introduction to the whole background.

Elaborating this section in a future printing a little bit would be a
very good idea.  (Minor reconciliation: the index points the reader to
a section about the various aliens, which explains my problems; ok, so
at least point the reader to that section in this introduction and
everything's fine).

Character Creation 
- ------------------ 

What I missed most in this section was a description of the meaning
of the various attribute levels (How much can a character with Str 13
carry? What meaning has Soc 3?  How educated is a character with Edu
5? ...).
	Personally I've always felt that 4-year terms are a bit too
long (for the little you learn in them).  Maybe I'll try 2-year terms
(with two skills per year) or something like that.  This also should
yield higher skill values and somewhat downplay the importance of
attributes.  I also miss a reasonable way to learn some "hobby
skills".  Otherwise as good as ever.

Skills
- ------
The section seems to be pretty complete although somewhat generic.
This fits into the general "back to the roots" style of the rulebook
though.  Personally I would have preferred it if attributes would
have a little less influence on success chances when trying a skill,
but it's ok the way it is.

Task System
- -----------
The good point about the task system is that it is very simple and
should be pretty fast to apply during the game (I yet have to play
T4).  The bad point might be having to roll a d3 together with some
d6.  I guess this won't be too much of a problem during the game, but
it's a little odd.  Also the 4D rating for impossible tasks seems to
be a little too low (someone with a good attribute, e.g. 11, and a
moderate skill level, e.g. 2, has about a 50% chance to succeed at an
impossible task which seems to be too high) -- on the other hand this
adds a nice cinematique feel to the whole system (a little bit like
Star Wars).

Combat 
- ------ 
The rules are simple and as far as I am concerned in some places a
little too simple.  Especially the low resolution for weapon damage
and armor could be a little problematic.  A quick hit location chart
with body coverage for armor types would have been nice (and you
already can do nice hit location charts based on 2d6 so this wouldn't
have added too much complexity).  
	The rules for multiple actions seem to be a little broken
when somewhat high skill levels are involved.  The given example (Str
7, skill level 5) allows (among other options) one attack with a
target number of 12 or 7 (!) attacks with a target number of 6.
While the one attack is almost guaranteed to hit, 7 attacks is pretty
much overkill (even with the reduced chance it is very likely that
two or three of them will be hits).
	The combat pools are a nice detail, although neither the
logic seems to be too obvious nor does it seem to fit into the other
pretty simple mechanics (since it requires bookkeeping for three
different pools for each character and maybe also for each NPC).
	I'm not really sure what purpose the silly range band display
at the bottom of page 61 serves, either.  Appears to be pretty
useless.
	Finally the rules for vehicle combat and fights against robots
seem to be incomplete.  Many terms mentioned (and the referenced
vehicle sheets) are not part of the rulebook.  I suspect that this
section has been extracted from some upcoming supplement but sadly
important parts were left out.  Currently it is not usable.

Equipment
- ---------
I just can state that I was pretty disappointed by the equipment
section.  It seems to be too short and really could have used a
larger listing of stuff for a variety of tech levels.  The omission
of an armor table is annoying, the number of typos is pretty makes
the section confusing to read.
	Not being able to find the maximum weight a character can
carry (the index seems to leave me alone on this one) also annoyed me
somewhat.  This might be my fault, but I generally attribute this to
failing to add a section about attributes and their game effects.

Surface Vehicles
- ----------------
My sole complaint about this section is the (to me) seemingly
arbitrary selection of four vehicles which are described in detail,
while all others are given a generic entry.  Speed modifiers for
various terrains would have been nice, too.

Spacecraft
- ----------
Although this chapter seems to be pretty usable it suffers from
severe editorial problems.  The text contains a number of typos and
grammatical problems and the tables used throughout the ship design
process obviously have been moved to the end of the section without
updating the text (there is a number of references to "the table on
the next page"/"the table below"/...).  Also the tables seem to have
been mixed pretty arbitrarily so that looking up a table can be a
real pain.  A rigid way of numbering all the tables would have been a
great help and inserting an illustration in the middle the tables
part didn't help either.  Also the spacecraft examples (pictures and
corresponding textual description) seem to have been mixed pretty
arbitrarily.

Space Combat/Space Travel
- -------------------------
These chapters are short and relatively simple.  Some formulations are
a little bit unclear (e.g. the section on skipping on page 116 could
have mentioned which dice to roll -- I'll assume 2d6; the last part of
the section on hijacking is also a bit unclear about this).
	The one thing I was wondering about after having read all the
rules about space travel and combat... is the Astrogation skill ever
used when trying to travel from one system to another or is it just
present in the system for flavor and completeness (I would have
figured that it would need to be used after a misjump for example).

Psionics/World Generation
- -------------------------
These sections are pretty clear and contain only few problems (some
formulations again are not too clear but nothing overwhelming or
annoying).  The world generation system is as clean and fast as ever.
One minor quibble: the Systems Contents Tables seems to have been
truncated so that the last one or more lines are missing -- this is
not too serious since only some explanations are missing but annoying
nonetheless.

Encounters
- ----------
Sometimes the descriptions reminded me of a board game (step by step
instructions on how to handle an encounter at times read like a
technical manual), but overall this chapter is average.  The texts
could have been more vivid and some examples of interesting encounters
would have been nice for new roleplayers.  The animal generation
system is pretty generic and thus very adaptable.  I can't seem to
find the target number of an attack, should an animal decide to fight,
but that's just a minor quibble.

Referee's Introduction/Running Adventures and Campaigns
- -------------------------------------------------------
Average... nothing exciting, no glaring omissions although a few more
comments on the transient nature of many Traveller campaigns could
have been helpful.

Trade and Commerce
- ------------------
A very nice addition.  The only other rpg I know, which has such
rules, is the Mythus game.  I wonder whether the payment for
performers is a bit too high, but we'll see.

Adventures 
- ---------- 
I'll not comment about them before having them played.  Maybe "Exit
Visa" should not have been staged in the Regina subsector, which never
is tackled in the rules.  Something I was wondering about: "Exit Visa"
starts on 300-1105.  Does this date correspond to the year 5626 AD (=
4521 AD [Founding of the Third Empire] + 1105)?  Probably not, since
this would be after the Rebellion.  Did I misunderstand the time
tables (I guess I did).  Clarifications would be nice.

- --- Part 3: Summary

The summary consists of two parts: an objective part (counting the
numbers and differentiating between inexperienced and experienced
users with and without Internet access) and a subjective part
summarizing my personal impressions.

Layout ........... 7/10
Artwork .......... 6/10
Editing .......... 3/10
Rules ............ 7/10
Completeness ..... 3/10
Pricing .......... 4/10

Overall rating ... 5.0  (30/60)

Objectively rated I'd consider the T4 rules to be (slightly below)
average compared to other products.  The reasons for this have been
cited above.
	If this book is to be used by someone new to roleplaying
without Internet access I'd lower the overall rating by a whopping 2
points to 3.0 (meaning a mediocre product), since there are just too
many omissions and problems with the rules.  Also there is not enough
"meat" included for a newcomer to get started.  
	For a newcomer with Internet access (and an idea where to find
support) I'd rate it as 4.0 since some of the problems can be remedied
and there are people out there with an idea about what is going on.
	Now for the seasoned roleplayer: experienced players and GM
probably will be able to work around the given problems -- and if they
have played Traveller before they even might not notice some of the
problems.  Thus I'd rate it 5.0 for experienced players.

Now for the subjective part (and personal comments): I was looking
forward to finally get my hands on this product and wanted to start a
campaign.  How do I feel after having read the rulebook?  I'm annoyed
because of the many mistakes (this reminds me of Microsofts habit of
testing software by giving it too soon to the customer) but am willing
to give the benefit of doubt to the crew of Imperium Games.  As far as
I know they started in February to work on this and thus it's a nice
result to see the new edition after Traveller after so little time has
passed.  For the product it would have been better to receive some
more time, but for sales it probably was necessary to be present at
GEN CON.
	Thus I'll give Imperium Games another chance and will wait for
the next supplements to judge their quality; being pretty new to
Traveller the background omissions, unusable rules and lacking
equipment section mean to me, that I won't be able to start my
Traveller campaign for another couple of months since I'd like to
integrate it into Milieu 0, about which I have little to no
information.  Very sad.  Also the pricing of the upcoming products
makes me feel somewhat concerned, since I'll definitely need the
equipment supplement, the aliens supplement and the milieu supplement
priced at $20 each (and maybe the starships supplement for another
$20).  I simply hope that those releases will enjoy better editing and
contain a lot more "meat".

Greetings from Germany,

				Thomas Biskup.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #467
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Traveller-digest         Sunday, 29 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 468

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: T4 Armour Question
         2. Re: Olympics 2020: Body Venting
         3. Re: blow all starboard hatches!
         4. Re: Seal all hatches!
         5. Re: The extra arm suits you...
         6. Re: Lib Data, Kiwi noise, Gauss recoil, Weird UWP's
         7. Re: T4 Blues
         8. Re: My T4 review/rant... (long)
         9. Re: T4 Blues
        10. Re: new-modernist look
        11. RC: Lucifer
        12. Re: More errata for T4
        13. RC:Tiniyd
        14. More Traveller Software Available
        15. Modelling Advice Needed
        16. Article 5

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:30:51 +0000
Subject: Re: T4 Armour Question

Paul Harris wrote:
> Naturally, I had to buy T4, but I have a question about the armour
> values, and I'm hoping someone can clear it up for me.
> Are the armour values for personal armour, vehicle armour and starship
> armour all the same scale? If they are, does this rally mean that I can
> blow holes through the skin of a Free Trader , armour value 0, with
> a body pistol?

Iwas kind of curious aboput how you would convert starship armour to personal scale 
armour
 
> Harry the signatureless.

Is this your name or an instruction to torment those without a signature?
Geez, I better get one

------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 09:47:32 +1300
Subject: Re: Olympics 2020: Body Venting

> 
> Not *that* dramatic. You forget that the skin is rather hard to
> rupture, so pressure gets lost thru the more convenient openings.
> 

I accept that it all depends on the rapidity of the exposure to the 
pressure difference. 


> Wrong again. When a scuba diver goes down, his internal pressure adjust
> to the external pressure. They come up slowly to allow the pressures to
> equalize as they come back up. 
> A diver who panics on the way up and holds his breath will rupture his
> lungs, but not show much other obvious damage. A closer look will show
> things like gas bubbles under the skin, but that comes later.
> 

Do you agree then that, if one were to fight the body venting (even 
gradually) as an adjustment to a lower pressure, one would suffer 
ruptured lungs?


> > I hope I have made it clear enough for people that getting bullet holes
> > in ones suit in a decompressed environment is pretty much the ball-game
> > unless one is able to patch it quickly.

I would love to read something about the astronaut who had a puncture in 
his suit. There are, of course, punctures and there are punctures.



------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 12:48:48 +1300
Subject: Re: blow all starboard hatches!

> cause a 32,000 pound ship's boat to lurch at one gee.
> 
> If you prefer metric (like I do), then multiply the pressure in pascals
> (1 atmosphere equals about 100,000 pascals) by the area of the hole in
> square meters, and you get the thrust in newtons (about 5 newtons in a
> pound). This has the advantage that if you're using the formula I gave
> above, you've already calculated the area in square meters (about 1,500
> square inches in a square meter).
> 
> 

Rob, does that mean that if the pressure is 1 atmosphere and the hole in 
the hull is a large hatch (2 sq metres) then the thrust in the first 
couple of seconds (with a 100 ton ship) is 200000N? Does this also mean 
that for approx two seconds, maybe longer, the ship could be thrust at 
2Gs from its course? 
This confirms what I had always thought but it had been previously 
denied on this list.


------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 09:17:12 +1300
Subject: Re: Seal all hatches!

> 
> 8.1 seconds for pressure to drop to one half current value
> 

This leaves me wondering; 
Firstly, how much of the 1400 cubic metres of the 100 ton Imperial 
Scount/Courier (Type S) would be considered a life support area 
requiring pressurised atmosphere for the purposes of your calculations 
(since the time to vent depends on the volume to be vented). Secondly, 
the Type S Scout/Courier is divided into 6 sealable sections. If a 
breach was made in the hull into only one section, the time to vent that 
section only would be greatly reduced, giving the occupants even less 
time to react before suffering its effects. For example, the cockpit of 
the Type S Scout is roughly 27 cubic metres (not allowing for lost 
volume due to instrumentation), which is approx 2% of the total volume 
of the ship (not just pressurised life support area). Does this mean the 
pressure in that compartment would be halved in 0.16 seconds (if the 
hole is one square metre). If so, there isn't even going to be time for 
knowing glances and a quick prayer.

Do you have a formula (user-friendly) for us John?



------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 10:11:40 +1300
Subject: Re: The extra arm suits you...

> 
> Simon John Harding waxed ecstatic and said:
> 
> >>
> >> P(t) = P0 * exp(-t * u*A/V )
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Fantastic!
> >
> 
> Sheesh!  The things that excite some people I shall never understand!
> 
>                                         ;-)>
>                                         ---Boyd
> 

 In my Traveller environment, both cybernetics and
> >psionics are considered of an alien nature and are considered to be
> >extremely condusive to a low ability to empathise with fellow human
> >beings. Only cybernetic devices of a critical medical nature are freely
> >available.
> 
> In a word, why?  I've always hated such artificial rules.  Is a person
> with a pacemaker or an artificial knee-joint less human than one without?
> 

to a very negligable extent, yes, because he/she has checked human 
mortality.

They aren't artificial limits, they are purely a measure of the degree 
to which a character is cybered-up that assists the referee in being 
consistant when dealing out reactions such as you suggested. How 
different societies react to different levels of cyberware may vary but 
within a society the reactions to levels of cyberware should be 
consistant.



------------------------------

From: John Macek <macek@erols.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:59:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Lib Data, Kiwi noise, Gauss recoil, Weird UWP's

Tom Ellis wrote:
> 
> That is a misquote, I was not the one who said anything about Vior.
> 

Sorry, Tom.  I knew I should've DOUBLE double checked!  It looks as if 
the Vior quote originated with David Jaques-Watson, when responding to 
an inquiry about weird UWPs.  Again, my most humble apologies.  

Ensign John
_____________________________________________________________ 
"Ensign" John Brent Macek, Coast Survey Nautical Cartographer 
"For Strephon's Breast He aim'd his Dart, and watch'd him as he came;
He cry'd and shot him thro' the Heart, Thy Blood shall quench my Flame."
Lines from an old Terran song, circa -2800 Imperial

------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 16:04:03 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 Blues

Scott Thede writes:

>I would say the art is good, but it seems like too much.  
>This is one of my problems with the book.  

   The ship design section is a typical example.  It is bisected in a number
of places by full page illustrations, none of which had even the remotest
connection with starship design.  That in itself does not necessarily
constitute bad layout, but when the illustrations result in constant page
turning to get to the appropriate tables, it doesn't help.  It would also
appear from your illustration count that my friend's comments about "Vogue
Traveller" are justified.

>I get the feeling that there is something missing.  
>What's worse, I get the feeling that it is *intentionally* missing.  
>I'm not saying that is what happened, but that's how it feels.  

   I think the intent was to go back to basics, and basics (with lots of
illustrations) is what we get.  Ironically, IG received a lot of input from
people saying that was the format they *wanted*.  As someone has said, "you
can't make everyone happy"....

>It seems like the book is saying "Here is the bare minimum of 
>ship construction rules... Want more?  Buy our next book."  

   There are two reasons to take this approach: one is that you plan on
stretching things out so that you can get the maximum dollar from your
customer; the other reason is that you want to introduce things in various
levels of complexity so that the player/customer can tailor the game to their
needs  (i.e. those that are interested in ship combat but don't care as much
about ground combat will want more advanced rules for ship design, but fast,
light rules in case they get in a shoot out in the downport).  Marc Miller
has indicated that he favors introducing things in various levels of
complexity.  To someone such as yourself (who apparently plans on buying
everything), it can appear that they are simply looking for big bucks, but I
don't think this is necessarily the case.

>I would agree with this, except that the rules don't seem 
>complete either.  You can have a basic set light on background 
>if it is heavy on rules; but this set seems light on both.  Those 
>of us who are familiar with the system can "fill in the gaps", but 
>I would be curious to see how people who have never encountered 
>Traveller before are handling it... 

   Assuming that you've never played Traveller before, it will probably take
you a good month or two to get the basic rules down and get comfortable with
the game (I assume here that the players are meeting once a week or less).
 After that, sourcebooks should start appearing in the stores giving you more
scenarios, more equipment, more rules.  That's why timing is critical.  If
new players don't get these things, most will get bored and go play something
else.

Rich Ostorero writes:

>A Wolfie's reaction to Traveller (I was there!):
>
"What? No Nature/Demeanor rules? No Merits and Flaws? 
>And I wanna play a suffering _Artist_, not some kind of 
>technogeek driving a space-truck! 'Pay the Bills or Starve,' 
>my ass! I wanna wear lots of black, look cool and rip throats!"
>
>Nuff said. There _is_ a generation gap in the hobby. 

   Absolutely.  Which is why T4 probably won't appeal to 16 year olds, but
will probably appeal to 24 year olds.  Yes, I know what I said about Milieu
Zero being aimed at younger players.  But when you consider that the average
age of a Traveller player is probably somewhere around 34, someone who is 24
*is* younger player.

   This also implies that young gamers (age 19 and younger) might look at T4
and say, "Whoa, how retro!"  Of course being "retro" can be a good or a bad
thing....

>There's also another product out already: _Fading Suns_. 
>_FS_ is by a couple of ex-Wolfies. It is full of World of 
>Darkness-like factions (clans), history/background, and the 
>same kind of stuff you'd see in a WW game (yep, I've played 
>Those Games -- just so I could have an _informed opinion_ of 
>them). 

   Well at least you didn't "go native".  :-)  I will confess to having
played _Star Wars_, but it simply isn't as much fun as Traveller (sorry
George).

>Technology is gone over very lightly, as are ships and the other 
>hardware so beloved of Trav fans; the focus is on people.

   After all, if the technology is well defined, you can build your own stuff
and don't have to buy all the sourcebooks to get additional gear.  _FS_
sounds like a game that truly has its hand in your wallet, much like
_StarWars_.

>Sexist, pornographic, art-for-art's sake garbage? ;)

   Sex sells.  As for garbage, have you seen American television
(particularly the Fox network) lately?  My opinions on collectable card games
are not printable in this forum (&^$%&%#&$#).

Regards,

Harold




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:36:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: My T4 review/rant... (long)

On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Thomas Biskup wrote:

> RULES: The rules are pretty simple, in some cases overly simple.  I
> see some potential problems with the combat system -- especially with
> the overly simplified armor and damage rules.  Also it seems to be a
> bit too unrealistic to make it impossible with a normal hit from a
> revolver to even have an opponent lose consciousness (except by making
> a called shot, which is a little hard for the average guy with a
> gun).

Hi Thomas,

I enjoyed your review.  I just have one negative comment to make, and 
that is that I believe you may have misunderstood the combat system.  A 
revolver has a damage rating of 3, so it is very possible to knock an 
opponent unconcious with one hit.  Assuming the opponent is average 
(777777), and has no armor, and the attacker makes an average damage roll 
(3D average = 10.5), the opponent will be unconcious since the first 
attack is applied to a single, random characteristic.

Thanks for sharing your review with us.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:43:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Blues

On Sun, 29 Sep 1996 HDHale@aol.com wrote:

>    The ship design section is a typical example.  It is bisected in a number
> of places by full page illustrations, none of which had even the remotest
> connection with starship design.  That in itself does not necessarily
> constitute bad layout, but when the illustrations result in constant page
> turning to get to the appropriate tables, it doesn't help.  It would also
> appear from your illustration count that my friend's comments about "Vogue
> Traveller" are justified.

Nah, if T4 was "Vogue Traveller," we'd have 60% advertisements, 25% 
graphics, and 15% actual content. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:33:13 +1300
Subject: Re: new-modernist look

> Joe Walsh wrote:
> <<massive deletia>>
> >
> > Nah, you're probably right.  Although T4 has sold well, it is probably
> > true that many, many of today's gamers look at it and become disgusted at
> > the old-fashioned approach IG has taken.  "What, no clans?  No drawings
> > of scantily clad women?  No supernatural beings?  Aaarrrghh!"  Heck, the
> > lack of the "grunge" feel will probably turn a lot of people off, too.
> 
> A Wolfie's reaction to Traveller (I was there!):
> 
> "What? No Nature/Demeanor rules? No Merits and Flaws? And I wanna play a suffering
> _Artist_, not some kind of technogeek driving a space-truck! 'Pay the Bills or Starve,'
> my ass! I wanna wear lots of black, look cool and rip throats!"
> 
> Nuff said. There _is_ a generation gap in the hobby.
> 

I expect very strongly that there are legions of Traveller players, 
especially in Europe and Australasia, who would be turned-off by an 
appearance of "grunge" or any post-modern or gothic symbolism. 
Obviously it is a matter of taste, but I would much prefer Orbital, 
Leftfield, The Prodigy, or some other Techno-pop as a soundtrack to my 
campaign. Spare me any Sisters of Mercy.

I haven't even seen T4 yet but I certainly hope the books are 
silver-grey on sky-blue look like NASA Flight Manuals. 
I expect I will be disappointed also.


------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 96 16:48:26 -0400
Subject: RC: Lucifer

Derek Stanley wrote:
>This is an interesting take on the Lutalan's.  I always just thought of 
>them as a bunch of ganga smoking anarchistic rastafarians.  Dedicated to 
>the ideals of personal freedoms and government with little authority or 
>control of the populace.  To this end I thought that they'd be more like 
>a bunch of dope smoking painters wandering in and out of bordello's 
>writing poetry and trying to understand the nature of the universe.  
>Perhaps under that last one there is room for a great deal of religious 
>varity and freedom.  

Well my take is that Lucifer has hundreds of weird political groups and
religous groups. I got this from reading the bit in Path of Tears.  But
most Lutalhans are pretty much normal, with a bit of a crazy streak. 
So along with the weird cults I wrote up, there are lots of as you put
it "...ganga smoking anarchistic rastafarians.."   
I guess a useful article would be on the different political parties of
Lucifer, extremist environmental parties, Pure Anarchists, Libertarians
and other groups.

 
>It was always my opinion that if anyone in the RC should have a weird 
>almost incomprehnsible guardian spirit kind of religion it would be the 
>Spiri.  The kind of society where karma and such were such an integral 
>part of their everyday life that others were often confused with what was 
>occuring.  Examples from religion and history would be used as often as 
>possible, meditation and trance like states to clense the soul would be  
>common and the idea of opening your mind to the possibilities around you 
>would be paramont.

I didn't have many ideas for the Spiri, and one of my players is from
there, so I let him have free reign and he came up with this idea:

"They follow many different
creeds and beliefs, but the most common is a version of Plato's idea of
forms, mutated through 5000 years of history."

I came up with the idea that the Spiri are very sectarian. The Spiri
live in small farming villiages. Everyone in the villiage follows the
same religous/philosphical doctrine, if a dispute arises, it is usually
resolved by the followers of the new idea going off to form their own
village somewhere else. This cuts down on religous strife and relieves
population pressure.

I'll try to put togethor what he and I wrote and send it to the TML soon.

Lewis Roberts
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Wanted: One Cool Sig
lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:47:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: More errata for T4

On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Thomas Biskup wrote:

> On page 80 the weight for the laser rifle probably is a bit of (the text 
> says that it weighs but 5 kg, which seems more appropriate).

I think perhaps in that one case they listed the weight of the weapon 
plus its reload...they didn't do that for other weapons, though.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 96 17:05:33 -0400
Subject: RC:Tiniyd

Hi,
Last weekend my players finished the first adventure I ran in my TNE
Refomration Coalition campaign. The mission was set on Tiniyd, the
players were sent to check out the status of an old Imperial Scout base
that was abandoned during Hard Times, but never fully evacuated.  My
players arrive in system, and listen to the radio chatter from the
planet for a day or so to get an idea of what is happening.  Then they
go down to the site of the old base.  While investigating they find out
that the base in currently occupied by a xenophobic terrorist group
which launches raid against the native Droyne, known as the Ilkahri. 
First my players just claim the entire base is theirs and demand that
the Ilkhari leave.  The Ilkhari of course refuses to give up their base
but offer some items in storage to the players if the players will blow
up a Droyne installation for them.  I never thought my players would
actually do this, but they accepted. They refused to blow up civilians,
but agree to  blow up an airbase and army barracks.  So they take their
ship into orbit and bombard the target. Killing several thousand Droyne
in the process.  They then get a cargo bay full of TL-15 starship spare
parts and go off on their merry way.  Talk about ruthless.  Of course
they never talked to the Droyne, or discovered the Ilkhari are led by
psions or anything, oh well I'll make sure it comes back to haunt them.  He he he. 

Well here is the write up I did on Tiniyd and the Ilkhari.
Lewis


- --------------------------------------------------------
Tiniyd X-54369C-6
       Size: Medium (8000km)             Atmosphere: Thin Tainted
	   Hydrographics:40%             Population: 2 Million
	   Government: Mystic Autocracy  Law Level: Extreme
	   Tech Level:6                  Starport: None

Pre-collapse Data:
The world is 30% water. There are three seas, in the very north we
have the Yurnhayfuyald sea, in the western hemisphere is the Nutay Ocean,
while in the eastern hemisphere is the Naysfanny Sea. To the west of the 
Nutay Ocean and on the equator is the city of Flaso which contained 
500,000 people. Between the Nutay and Naysfanny water bodies and slightly 
south of the equator is the remains of the old Imperial scout base
To the north of the Naysfanny Sea at about latitude 45 is the old town 
of Rafta contained 100,000 people. There were southern mining 
camps to the far south of the old scout camp. These held about one million
people. The star port is a few kilometers to the south of the city of Flaso.
 
The atmospheric taint is a high oxygen content.

The system is a binary system of M1V and M8V. There are 2 planetoid belts
and 1 gas giant.

Stellar mass                           = 0.489
Orbital distance                       = 0.2 AU.
Orbital period                         = 0.128 years = 45 days
Rotational period                      = 27 hours
Eccentricity                           = 0.025

Temp = 315 K +/- 0.75 (due to inclination) & tilt
     hex row adjustment to temperature
        1  = +15       7  = -15
        2  = +10       8  = -20
        3  = + 5       9  = -25
        4  =   0      10  = -30
        5  = - 5      11  = -35
        6  = -10

Tilt = 45 degrees

Gravity = 0.45 g
Density = low
Mass    = 0.13 earth mass
								
		  
3 satellites								   
- - ---------------------------------------
Rings                     at  20,000 km
small satellite ( 400 km) at 220,000 km
large satellite (1600 km) at 200,000 km

Society: Tiniyd is a broken up into 10 different nations.  Seven of
these are human nations, while the other three are home to the Droyne.
The human nations are ruled by the descendants of a psionic resistance cell
that took advantage of the Collapse to seize power.  Once they had
achieved power, they began to fight among themselves.  
	The human nations are quite xenophobic, both to human outworlders
and the native droyne.  Many of them have enslaved droyne, which have
reverted to chirper status.  Several times during the last seventy
years one nation or the other has declared war on the Droyne, and 
attempted to wipe them out.  The droyne have become distrustful of
any humans and have retreated to their cities.  The humans are also
quite technophobic and distrust all high tech devices.
	The Kingdom of Light: The Kingdom is the most technophobic of
all the nations.  The state religion of the Kingdom preaches that the
use of any electrical device damns the offending user.  The Kingdom
tries to help the damned on their way to hell, by executing any 
offending individuals.  This has caused the Kingdom to fall
behind in technology and it has fallen to TL-4.  The Kingdom rewards
those who find and turn in technological devices, often granting them
land or chirper slaves.  
    The Ilkahari is a group of fanatical guerillas fighters from the Kingdom
of Light. They hate the Droyne and all other aliens with a passion.  Their 
hate is so strong that they are willing to damn their souls, by using 
technology in their fight against the Droyne.  They are lead by Commander 
Lars Telgon, a former Baron of the Kingdom. Like all nobles, he is a psion, 
in this case a healer.  He has gathered two other nobles to his cause, Suza 
Lefla, a Knight of the realm, and Cleon Arrington, another KOR.  All three 
have renounced their titles and no longer use them.  
	The Kingdom of Light hunts the group, because of their use of techology.
The group is also pursued by the Droyne for their many attacks on Droyne
settlements, and installations.  The Ilkahari are currently based out
of an old Imperial scout base that Telgon found many years ago.  They
have restarted the base's fusion plant and scavanged about a dozen high tech
rifles, and two suits of Scout Look-a-bout armor. The base also contains
about 20 tons of TL-15 starship spare parts, which are of no use to the 
Ilkhari.  Their other equipment is of local manufacture, including several 
APCs, jeeps, trucks, and one light tank.  Their weapons include assualt 
rifles, SMGs, pistols, grenades explosives and several anti-aircraft 
missles.  There are currently 300 members.
	The Ilkahari believe that they are truly and irrevocably damned. They
are quite willing to die for their cause, and are willing to do anything
to accomplish their goal of exterminating the Droyne.  

Personal:
 Cmmdr Lars Telgon 77B87D-9-1	(Orignal social standing was higher, but
                                 he is now a wanted fugitive)
Slug Rifle 4/11
Electronics 2/9
Unarmed Martial Arts 4/11  Damage 2
Persuasion 5/18
Leadership 6/19
Psionics:
   Regeneration 5/14
   Psionic Healing 3/12
(He has more skills, but these were the only ones I have assigned him)

  Telgon is the leader and founder of the Ilkhari. He is believes like
all of his followers that their immortal souls are irrevocably damned,
and that they will suffer everlasting torment in the afterlife.  
As such, he is not afraid to add to his crimes, after all he is guilty
of the most heinous crime there is, what is a little murder.  He is even
willing to compromise, if in the end Droyne end up dead.  Once you get
beyond his xenophobia, he is actually quite a charming individual.  
He is able to take advantage of many years in court, to flatter and
persuade people.
   Telgon is a large hulking man, with striking features.  He is completly
bald.  Most nobles of the Kingdom of Light, who are psions depilitate 
their scalps. He dresses in neatly tailored robes and vestments. He uses
a 7mm ACR in combat. He has 400 rnds of HE ammo for it. He also wears
a balistic weave suit in combat.

Suza Lefla 946496-7-1
 Slug Pistol 6/10
 Stealth 5/9
 Thrown Weapon 4/8						  
 Interogation 3/9						  
 Psionics:
   Clairavoyence 5/11

	Suza is slightly mentally unbalanced, she is quite paranoid believing
that most of the members of the Ilkahari are out to steal her brain and 
powers. She is kept in check by Telgon. She never leaves his side, sleeping
in the same room as him.  She is totally devoted to him, but their
relationship has never been consumated.  This is because Telgon 
realizes that this gives him a certain amount of control over Lefla,
and he needs her for her abilites. She ususally carries two body pistols
and several throwing stars. (Same stats as throwing knife)
    She is bald, with several green tatoos on her scalp.

Cleon Arrington 799775-5-1
 Slug Rifle 4/13
 Ground Tactics 5/12
 Stealth 4/13
 Teleport 6/10
 Telekenisis 4/9

	Cleon is very quiet individual. He feels no need to make small
talk, and only says something if it essential. He is the tactical leader
of the Ilkahari, creating most of their succesful plans. If he is not
planning a mission he usually sits and reads from one of many religious
texts put out by the Kingdom of Light.  Cleon is a thin bald man.
 

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 29 Sep 1996 18:22:19 GMT
Subject: More Traveller Software Available

I've just uploaded Imperial Grand Survey, a Macintosh application for
generating and mapping large areas of space (theoretically could do all of
Known Space).

IGS can cope with most of the symbols used in TNE, including the Regency
calibration points.

Can collapse and rebuild systems, for us TNE types. Referees have a choice of
which data (historical or current) to display if this option is used.

Prints full-sector maps OK on my ImageWriter and LaserWriter, haven't been
able to check other printers.

Can import and export HIWG-standard text files.  File includes data for both
Regency and Star Viking settings.

Address is:

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 29 Sep 1996 18:24:46 GMT
Subject: Modelling Advice Needed

I'm going to be needing miniatures for swarms of small critters, both airborn
and groundlings.  Some of the nasties are small (ants or flies), some are
larger (mice/rats/bats).  I have a gut feel that this should be easy enough
to do if I just knew 'the trick'.  (Rather like grass was easy after I
learned about tea and dry-brushing.)

Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:56:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Article 5

     I've been thinking about the soon-to-be-famous Article 5 in Marc Miller's
goals for Traveller (paraphrased: set a quality control standard that
specifically promotes wholesome adventure, eliminating sexually-flavored 
content or artwork, vulgar language, and gratuitous unnecessary violence).  
To my (albeit limited, I haven't bought a new rpg in a couple years before
now) knowledge, this is a first in an rpg.  While I applaud the condemnation
of gratuitous unnecessary violence, and have always respected Traveller for
being one of the only rpgs where combat is truly rare (although TNE's RC 
material smudged that record).  Vulgar language isn't something I've ever
noticed being much of a problem in rpg products (now rpg PLAYERS are an
entirely different matter!) so I don't have much comment there.  What I'm
really concerned with is the ban on sexually-flavored CONTENT (I'll be glad
not to see sexually-flavored artwork; I consider the cover of Avalon Hill's 
RQ3 to be a classic in sensible artwork).  Perhaps I'm jumping to hasty
conclusions here, but is this Article implying that all people in the
officially-published Traveller universe are going to be essentially sexless?
     If this is the case, Mr Miller is cutting Traveller off from a wealth 
of potential scenarios, personality complexities, rp opportunities, and,
in effect, a major part of Real Life.  Now, I'm not saying that I want to see
"Crusing for Chicks at the Spacebar" scenarios, but here are some perfectly
sensible-seeming scenarios that, by my reading, may be unacceptable: 
   Political blackmail: Someone has some type of sexually incriminating
material on a p[olitical figure (We needn't sepcify exactly what!) and the
PCs are supposed to keep it from leaking to the press, perform PR spin
control, prove that it was falsified, keep themselves from being implicated,
or many other possibilities.
   Romeo and Juliet: Two young folks want to get together (Which needn't
happen "on-stage"!) but someone else doesn't want them to.  Once again the
PCs can either help them, hinder them, get innocently caught in the 
cross-fire, and so on.
   Jilted Lover: Classic revenge-plot, with the PCs as possible tools of the
revenge-seekign Jiltee, friends/employees of the Jiltor (and therefore 
real, imagined, or even accidental targets themselves), third-party 
arbitrators called in to keep things from getting REALLY nasty, and so on.
   The Ex-Prostitute: Classic NPC-type; s/he may be on the run from past
employers (not only for seamy financial reasons, but possibly because of
something s/he knows, maybe without even knowing s/he knows it), may be a 
source of information or contacts, etc.
   None of these scenarios are necessarily smutty garbage if handled
effectively, and all of them (to my mind, anyway) would make pretty good
adventure-material, more interesting to my mind than a RC "Smash & Grab"
mission, but they are all distinctly "sexually-flavored".  Would such 
scenarios automatically be denied publication in, say, JTAS?  Sure, the game
could probably survive just fine without such scenarios, but it would be
missing out on a huge chunk of potentially interesting material which,
if nothing more, could serve as a great change of pace from the "traditional"
Traveller activities of exploration, trade, straight-ahead diplomacy, and
military actions (more scenario ideas based on those four: the PCs come
across a world where the long-isolated natives have developed strange sex-
based customs; how do the PCs react? There's a thriving business smuggling
porn onto a highly conservative world, do the PCs get involved (perhaps even
unwittingly)? An off-worlder's unfamiliar sexual habits are threatening to
derail negotiations with a conservative government, how can the PCs keep
everything on-track? Hostile Amazons- are the PCs willing to fight women as
equals?  Are they afraid of what happens to prisoners?).
    Anyway, my point is that "sexually-flavored" doesn't necessarily have to
mean smutty or perverse, and to throw out the potential good with the
perceived bad seems like an unfortunate decision.  How does everybody else
see this issue?  Do I have a one-track mind/ have I been polluted by too
much television, or do I actually have a point?

Trent Smith


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #468
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Traveller-digest         Monday, 30 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 469

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Modelling Advice Needed
         2. Re: Article 5
         3. Re: Article 5
         4. Re: T4 Armour Question
         5. Re: Article 5
         6. Article 5 of the Traveller Manifesto
         7. T4 & other things
         8. Re: Article 5
         9. Delurking med. long
        10. Re: Article 5
        11. Article 5 respones
        12. MMT Errata & Suggestions
        13. Further responses...
        14. On breathing Vaccuum
        15. Various (long); water, fiction, places, UWPs, Games Workshop

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 20:30:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Modelling Advice Needed

At 06:42 PM 9/29/96 EST, you wrote:
>I'm going to be needing miniatures for swarms of small critters, both airborn
>and groundlings.  Some of the nasties are small (ants or flies), some are
>larger (mice/rats/bats).  I have a gut feel that this should be easy enough
>to do if I just knew 'the trick'.  (Rather like grass was easy after I
>learned about tea and dry-brushing.)
>
>Any suggestions would be gratefully received.
>
Try painting the critters in your desired base color, then washing them with
a darker complement: dark brown for browns, reds, and oranges; dark grey, or
black for greys and whites; or even dark blue... be creative w/your insects!
When dry, drybrush them with the base color or a lightened shade of the base
color.  Finish up by hilighting teeth, eyes, and other details, if they're
big enough for it to matter.  It's quick, easy, and gives the impression
that you put more effort into them than you did... - Bill

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 20:22:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Article 5

I would not say that combat is rare in Traveller, but it is not the only,
nor most likely, outcome to many encounters. I often consider my PC's to
have done less than optimally if they fail to find the non viloent ways
out of some situations.

Then of course there are times when the only logical course is to attack,
or to defend if that is the case...

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 20:50:24 +0000
Subject: Re: Article 5

You do have a very good point....I would not want IG to be WW but roleplaying has 
changed a lot and more mature topics are advisable (deal with slavery, racism, 
speciesism)
Evolve or die, man, evolve or die

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 29 Sep 1996 20:48:33 GMT
Subject: Re: T4 Armour Question

>Are the armour values for personal armour, vehicle armour and starship 
>armour all the same scale? If they are, does this rally mean that I can 
>blow holes through the skin of a Free Trader , armour value 0, with
>a body pistol?

Assuming that they are using CT as a base ruleset, NO.  It was either Striker
or Azhanti High Lightning that combined the two armour scale - until then we
either improvised or said that personal weapons couldn't damage the
incredibly strong hullmetal.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 20:45:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Article 5

On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Trent Smith wrote:

> entirely different matter!) so I don't have much comment there.  What I'm
> really concerned with is the ban on sexually-flavored CONTENT (I'll be glad
> not to see sexually-flavored artwork; I consider the cover of Avalon Hill's 
> RQ3 to be a classic in sensible artwork).  Perhaps I'm jumping to hasty
> conclusions here, but is this Article implying that all people in the
> officially-published Traveller universe are going to be essentially sexless?

No one knows at this point other than Marc Miller and perhaps IG what is 
and is not allowed, specifically, but my guess is that tasteful sexual 
material would be fine.  Something on the order of classical works of 
literature (which often deal with sexuality, but in a way different from 
the method used in today's popular media) should be fine.  Or, I would 
hope so.


>      If this is the case, Mr Miller is cutting Traveller off from a wealth 
> of potential scenarios, personality complexities, rp opportunities, and,
> in effect, a major part of Real Life.  Now, I'm not saying that I want to see
> "Crusing for Chicks at the Spacebar" scenarios, but here are some perfectly
> sensible-seeming scenarios that, by my reading, may be unacceptable: 

I'll add my guesses as to what the 5th Article might have meant. :)


>    Political blackmail: Someone has some type of sexually incriminating
> material on a p[olitical figure (We needn't sepcify exactly what!) and the
> PCs are supposed to keep it from leaking to the press, perform PR spin
> control, prove that it was falsified, keep themselves from being implicated,
> or many other possibilities.

This would probably be a grey area.  It would depend on the treatment of 
th subject (as in all cases, of course).  This could easily go overboard, 
but could also be done tastefully.

>    Romeo and Juliet: Two young folks want to get together (Which needn't
> happen "on-stage"!) but someone else doesn't want them to.  Once again the
> PCs can either help them, hinder them, get innocently caught in the 
> cross-fire, and so on.

Should be no problem, as long as it is treated similarly to how the play 
treated it.


>    Jilted Lover: Classic revenge-plot, with the PCs as possible tools of the
> revenge-seekign Jiltee, friends/employees of the Jiltor (and therefore 
> real, imagined, or even accidental targets themselves), third-party 
> arbitrators called in to keep things from getting REALLY nasty, and so on.

Again, as long as it is handled tastefully, there should be no problem.  
No sex scenes, but references to the previous relationship would be fine.


>    The Ex-Prostitute: Classic NPC-type; s/he may be on the run from past
> employers (not only for seamy financial reasons, but possibly because of
> something s/he knows, maybe without even knowing s/he knows it), may be a 
> source of information or contacts, etc.

This would be another case like the blackmail one.  As long as it was 
handled right, it should be no problem.


>     Anyway, my point is that "sexually-flavored" doesn't necessarily have to
> mean smutty or perverse, and to throw out the potential good with the
> perceived bad seems like an unfortunate decision.  How does everybody else
> see this issue?  Do I have a one-track mind/ have I been polluted by too
> much television, or do I actually have a point?

I think you have a point, in that you are correct that such topics can be 
extremely interesting without being of prurient intererest, if handled 
correctly.  The question is, what did MM mean when he articulated Article 5?
It may be a non-issue, depending on what he meant.

It'd be nice to hear what Marc has to say on this subject.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 23:10:36 -0400
Subject: Article 5 of the Traveller Manifesto

>     I've been thinking about the soon-to-be-famous Article 5 in Marc Miller's
>goals for Traveller (paraphrased: set a quality control standard that
>specifically promotes wholesome adventure, eliminating sexually-flavored 
>content or artwork, vulgar language, and gratuitous unnecessary violence).  

I don't think Mr. Miller is intending to squelch the kind of things you were
making reference to. I think he's saying that he doesn't want Traveller
going down the road that White Wolf and some other companies have of having
artwork and themes that are, in the eyes of a lot of people, bordering on
pornographic. Traveller is not about these things. I'm sure that (for
instance) Hiver reproduction will be discussed, and there is room for
"adult" (as in mature, not "sexy") themes in Traveller. It's just that these
things need to be done tastefully. I'm not a prude, by any stretch. But I
feel that a hobby that has the Religious Right breathing down it's neck as
it is does not need the kind of drek that The Masters of Pretense and their
imitators have
put out. 
        I'm actually quite encouraged by Marc Miller's intention of treating
women with respect in regards to the artwork appearing in Traveller
supplements. Remember BTRC's Macho Women with Guns? A lot of people like
that game for the wrong reasons. As I recall, MWWG was a LAMPOON of
companies who use scantily-clad females to sell their products (like a
certain company That Sues Regularly...). Traveller will not do this, and
that's a good thing; bikini's don't provide much protection against
corrosive atmospheres.
        I applaud Mr. Miller for taking this stand.
                                                        Allen


------------------------------

From: "David Murray" <DRM13@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 22:25:49 -0500
Subject: T4 & other things

While almost everyone has some problem with T4, including me, I can only
hope the people at IG are watching and listening!!  

T4 is out and there aren't going to be any changes to it, at least not this
printing.

The best thing all of us Travellers can do is to let IG know how we feel
about their product and hope that our influcence might help shape products
in the future.

My problem is general layout.  Specifically the QSDS chapter.  You can not
run straight thru the tables to build a ship, their not in order. There are
others but I can't remember them (set my softcover down somewhere and my
hardback is not here yet).

Traveller is THE sf rpg bar none. I've been playing for over 15 yrs.  Much
of that time has been expanding one characters background, a TL18
pilot/mercenary with crew & small fleet. Yes he was rolled right out of MT
when it first came out (honest no cheating), and I've been playing him ever
since.

I dont get much time to play now. What time I do have is being spent trying
to update his ship designs to TNE and when it is out Starships.

Does anyone have any TL17+ ship designs?

______________________________
Dave Murray
DRM13@worldnet.att.net
'Got a battle to win? Hire my Merc squadron! Entire Imperial fleets are NO
match!  ATHYK.'


------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 04:30:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Article 5

I think you're a little overly-worried on this point. 
 
Are you familiar with The Traveller Adventure, the 
first campaign sourcebook, and penned by MM 
himself.? 
 
One of the side scenarios dealt with a surrogate 
mother trying to get out of a contract that 
required her to be a concubine as well. 
 
Since *that* was done (tastefully), there should 
be no problems with Romeo and Juliet, or 
blackmail scenarios. 
 
 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

From: chris watson <qwerty@mosquitonet.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 20:27:57 -0800
Subject: Delurking med. long

Best SF. Brian Daley.   Requim for a Ruler of Worlds.
I  borrowed ideals from this trilogy for a Traveler campaign. Good
stuff.

 Cyberwear. I like the ideal of it but it should not rule the game. As I
remember T2300 had some interesting stuff in it. I don't have the rules
but I remember an alien race that made organic tools that were sort of
cyber like.

 PC vs.Death I used to play the game Aftermath! with A -large- group of
players maybe as many as 9 or 10 at a time. The sheer body count would
startle many of you. In one game there where over 8 Pc deaths some
players dieing 2 or 3 times ! Yet my longest living character went 22
games beforethe end. Another Pc went 33 before retirement. In such a
game nothing can beat that sence of accomplishment.

 Pc vs pc. I helped a Pc to his just reward by reloading one round from
his .455 webly with c-4. It did not actually kill him but the mutant rat
things he was fighting did. This is not the only time I've  done for a
pc but it sticks in my mind as the first.  

                                         Spc.Chris Watson USAR.
                                         Keeping Alaska safe from
                                         polar bears and Canadians.

------------------------------

From: Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 03:23:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Article 5

It seems to Me that all We can can ask for, or would want would be a
Rule set is that it lets Us select the content and flavor of our
campaigns. If You ran for My mixed Adult Group then You have one type of
Game. If You run for the Guys in the Barracks it is another and if You
run for the Folks after School You got a third. All of these Players are
different, all have unique requirements of Us as GM's. Do We want Rules
or Design philosophy limiting or guideing our choies? I do not think so. 
 On the question of morality remember "It is only a Game". I think We
Gamers tend to take all this stuff far too hard. Trying to attach real
World Moral Values to a RPG is useless. You close the Book and the
universe goes away. Question of right and wrong can only be answered by
Us in the real world, where real people live with Our choices. Our Games
are only our escapes.
                                                                             
Thanks
                                                                             
Charlie

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 00:30:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Article 5 respones

     I'm glad to see that all the responses I've gotten so far about my
"Article 5" concerns have been encouraging-- agreeing with me that the 
types of scenarios I mentioned seemed like they'd probably be acceptable, 
and that I'm probably getting worked up over nothing.  
     I realize that you're probably right, and although my post may have been
both long and vehement, I'm not really that worked up, honestly!  My
concern mostly grew out of vague memories of rumors (from, I believe, 
USENET; caveat emptor) about an RPGA submissions guideline that had a
list of unacceptable topics including such things as "bad guys profiting
by their actions" and "authority figures portrayed in a negative manner"
and other ridiculous-seeming stipulations which may have been written with
the best intentions but in practice seemed idiotic.
     Taken to it's illogical extreme, Article 5 could limit Traveller 
adventures to nothing but guys in white button-down shirts conducting their
business in an entirely "proper" manner.  I sincerely doubt that's what
Marc had in mind, but I'd hate to see a misunderstanding arise which causes
it to become so (people afraid to send in certain types of submissions,
editors not wanting to push the limits by OKing anything "risky", etc).
     As a whole, Traveller probably has one of the most mature audiences of
any rpg on the market (and I don't just mean by age!), and I think we can
tastefully handle some of the "mature" issues (which, as someone pointed
out, isn't limited merely to sexually-oriented topics but includes such
things as Slavery, Racism/Speciesism, etc).  We shouldn't let fears of
exploitation keep us from mining such valuable and interesting areas, and I
hope that Marc et al have enough faith in us to allow it (on a case by case
basis, of course, as with anything else).
     Further speculation and rhetoric's not going to do anybody any good, and
will keep me away from other things that should be taking precedence, so
unless Marc comes forward and says "Actually, you were right the first 
time; Traveller will have absolutely nothing thought-provoking except
tactical combat decisions and trade-route mapping" I'll be willing to
consider this whole thing as a non-issue.

Later,

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 30 Sep 96 17:33:21 +1000
Subject: MMT Errata & Suggestions

     I wasn't sure where to post this list of errata for MMT, so here goes: 
     (would somebody tell me please if Imperium Games are NOT reading the 
     TML, and give me their direct email address?)
     
     MMT ERRATA/SUGGESTIONS
     
     p9 dates confused: ie 3rd Imperium (4521 to 5637AD) and Rebellion 
     (5367AD). These dates are inconsistent. Looks like digits 6 and 3 
     transposed. 
     
     p11 The Players "make a character" 
     
     p13 & elsewhere more examples of skill use needed. Note that examples 
     should be checked even more carefully than the rest of the book, 
     because any errors in the examples will render that section of the 
     rules useless to beginner players. 
     
     p37 cascade skills - in many places esp. character generation, these 
     skills are not in bold type. This is very annoying because I have to 
     keep flipping pages to find out which are cascade skills. Also, Level 
     0 is *NOT* unskilled! It actually takes some effort to get to Level 0 
     in any skill. Level 0 designates a person with some level of 
     instruction or experience, sufficient to *avoid* the penalties that an 
     *unskilled person* would face. Otherwise, why bother with Level 0 
     skills at all? 
     
     p46 Stealth should be usable against machines, but only if the 
     character is aware of the machines' presence (eg electric eye beams, 
     character has to use perception or Recon to find the beams, then 
     stealth to get past). 
     
     p50 2nd column: seems to be a font change partway down the page for 
     about 4 lines. 
     
     p56 assault rifle - "effective range" 
     
     p57 rethink the maximum wounds rule. It seems to be OK if applied to 
     single, penetrating attacks. However, I think you could do without 
     this rule, or at least make it optional - sure Traveller combat is 
     lethal, that's what makes it a good idea to negotiate/ambush/ etc 
     instead! 
     Also, it is possible to take only 5 points of damage from a 5d attack. 
     Couldn't this be the bullet that passes through doing only a little 
     bit of damage? The 5d attack that causes 30 points of damage will be 
     the JFK *magic bullet* - entering the wrist, going through the heart, 
     ricocheting up through the skull, turning in midair to go back and 
     lodge in the kneecap. 
     
     p70 Slow Drug - 5th para - "drug drug". 
     
     p73 Combat Gear - should be "latter is really needed to carry the 
     former" 
     
     p75, para 1 "TL9 Rifle"
     
     p89 HEPlaR is the only drive that requires reaction mass. Thrusters 
     only need power. 
     
     p123 Psionic Strength Rating - ratings of 13+ cannot be achieved by 
     *anybody*, before or after age 18, except, perhaps, a very lucky 
     Psionicist during character generation. 
     
     p124 Shield should be the first discipline under Telepathy, because 
     other disciplines (eg life detection, assault) are affected by Shield. 
     Also, under Assault - get rid of the word "wary"! (unnecessary)
     
     p125 under Regeneration, word should be "range" not "rage". 
     
     p126 Special is the rarest psi *drug* not *drugs*. 
     
     p132 high population worlds are pop 9+, not A+. 
     
     p147 para 6 full stop (period) missing; also Minor races are those 
     that have not indepently developed *Jump Drive* (there are examples of 
     minor races that have achieved interstellar travel via sublight 
     methods!) 
     
      Foreign words (eg Vilani or Vargr) should be in italics throughout 
     the book. For example, on p8 'Ziru Sirka' is in italics, but on p9 it 
     is not.  Usage should be consistent! 
     
     More to follow
     MB

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 01:13:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Further responses...

On Sun, 29 Sep 1996 23:10:36 -0400
34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock) (although the message itself was
signed by "Allen") said:

>I don't think Mr. Miller is intending to squelch the kind of things you were
>making reference to. I think he's saying that he doesn't want Traveller
>going down the road that White Wolf and some other companies have of having
>artwork and themes that are, in the eyes of a lot of people, bordering on
>pornographic. Traveller is not about these things. I'm sure that (for
>instance) Hiver reproduction will be discussed, and there is room for
>"adult" (as in mature, not "sexy") themes in Traveller. It's just that these
>things need to be done tastefully. I'm not a prude, by any stretch. But I
>feel that a hobby that has the Religious Right breathing down it's neck as
>it is does not need the kind of drek that The Masters of Pretense and their
>imitators have
>put out. 

   Here I must plead my ignorance, arising from a general disinterest in 
most of the rpg stuff released in the past couple of years.  Of the games
and companies I am familiar with, I'd like to cite a few anecdotal cases:
  R Talsorian's "Mekton": In attempting to recreate the soap-opera feel of
Japanese anime, romantic relationships (both happy and sour) are very 
prevalent in the published adventure campaign (Operation: Rimfire) which I
think is great, adding a much-needed "human" element to a game which teeters
perilously close to being a boardgame at times.  Everything is handled 
tastefully and discreetly, but the fact remains that the characters in that
campaign have and have had sexual relationships with one another.
  Chaosium's "Pendragon": Beinf based on what's essentially an account of
adultery and incest (the King Arthur legends), obviously sex figures into
this game, which includes a chapter on "Romance" (which boils down to,
basically, seducing married women).  However, this remains, in my 
experience, the most tasteful and mature rpg ever published, and (I don't
think coincidentally) a favorite among female rpgers.
  Chaosium/AH's "Glorantha" material (nee RuneQuest):  Recent materials have
become much more honest and up-front about sex-roles, sex-related rituals,
and sex-related behaviors which is fully fitting with the (newfound?)
focus on Bronze Age-equivalent cultures, mythologies, and communities. 
Since everything remains very serious and academic, there's very little
prurience or exploitation.  These people take themeselves VERY seriously!
  Phil Barker's "Tekumel" material (nee "Empire of the Petal Throne"):  This
is the only case I can think of where an rpg consistently skirts the edge
of decency, but, very much like the Glorantha-philes, it's all done with
a very serious tone and in an attempt to stay true to the source material.  
The prevalence of slavery, bloody and orgiastic religious rites, public
nudity, and a genarlly amoral society is frequently jarring to traditional
(ie- my) sensibilities, but, once again, it's done for reasons of artistic
and social itegrity rather than exploitation so even this is OK in my mind 
(although it doesn't belong in Traveller!)
   All of the above show, in my mind, that there is obviously a wide middle
ground between "pornography" and a flat-out ban on "sexually-related content"
which I hope will not be ignored.

>        I'm actually quite encouraged by Marc Miller's intention of treating
>women with respect in regards to the artwork appearing in Traveller
>supplements. Remember BTRC's Macho Women with Guns? A lot of people like
>that game for the wrong reasons. As I recall, MWWG was a LAMPOON of
>companies who use scantily-clad females to sell their products (like a
>certain company That Sues Regularly...). Traveller will not do this, and
>that's a good thing; bikini's don't provide much protection against
>corrosive atmospheres.
>        I applaud Mr. Miller for taking this stand.
>                                                        Allen
  
   As I said before, I agree 100% about the stand against exploitative 
artwork, and wish more publishers would adopt similar standards.  I just 
don't want to see Traveller go too far extreme and treat women as nothing
more than "men in funny suits" which seems to be (if slightly more 
defensible) just as much of a male-adolescent error as the other.

I said I wouldn't belabor this issue any more, this time I mean it.

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 01:05:00 -0400
Subject: On breathing Vaccuum

I was looking for something else on the web and found this - semi topical
to the recent thread on how long you can survive in vaccuum.

Pop Goes An Eardrum!

Words: Paula Smith
Music: "Pop Goes the Weasel"

You're all alone and drifting in space
Without a suit or helmet.
The vacuum makes your sinus explode;
POP! goes an eardrum.

Was testing out the battery cells,
The airlock gave no warning.
I'm now depressurizing in space;
POP! goes an eadrum.

Joseph Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

"Zathras can never have anything nice."

PGP 2048bit-Fingerprint: F8 A2 A5 15 56 42 9B 16  3F BD 57 0F 8A ED E3 21



------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 30 Sep 96 18:43:15 +1000
Subject: Various (long); water, fiction, places, UWPs, Games Workshop

     I have just spent half a day digging through the forty or so digests 
     that crammed my inbox during the fortnight I was on holidays. 
     *Really*, you guys, I take a little bit of time to myself and you go 
     berserk!  ;]
     
     This posting will give my opinion/ranting on various of the topics 
     discussed during the last two weeks. Sorry it's a tad long but I have 
     to get it out of my system! 
     
     
     WATER FOR THE DESERT SCENARIO
     Very nice - can't wait to check it out on the web site. I like the 
     mention of the *Disciples of the Bright Way*. Imitation is the 
     sincerest form of flattery! 
     
     FAVOURITE TRAVELLERESQUE SF FICTION
     My votes: 
     1. Poul Anderson's "Flandry" series, especially the later ones. I 
     consider "A Knight of Ghosts and Shadows" and "The Day of Their 
     Return" to be classics of SF literature. 
     2. Asimov's "Foundation and Empire" (book 2 of the Foundation series). 
     I don't really like the rest of the Foundation series, but I think 
     this book (really two novellas) presents two of the most *human* Bad 
     Guys (tm) that I have ever seen in SF (ie the Mule and the General). 
     3. Larry Niven's "Protector" and "Ringworld". Some excellent space 
     warfare bits, ramscoop and gravity-polarizer equipped ships equipped 
     with some of the nastiest weaponry in SF. Niven's universe seems to be 
     around TL17+, but I have lifted some great ideas for Ancient artifacts 
     from his work! 
     4. Greg Bear's "Strength of Stones". Not particularly Trav, but just 
     such a magnificent concept that I had to mention it! Mobile, deserted, 
     artificially intelligent *cities*, crisscrossing a devastated planet. 
     Come to think of it, this could fit into the Virus era with only minor 
     modifications...
     
     WATER
     If water is *that* expensive (ie 10Cr/litre), alternative sources will 
     become very important. Some suggestions: recycling (more sophisticated 
     techniques as TL increases), skimming hydrogen/water vapour from gas 
     giants, using icy asteroids and chunks from gas giant ring systems, 
     reclamation from biological material (dead animals, plant matter, 
     convicted criminals...), extraction from the atmosphere, digging for 
     subterranean water sources, extraction from certain rocks, capping 
     volcanoes/fumaroles for water vapour,...
     If water is very rare, the entire world population will probably be 
     concentrated around a couple of reliable sources, with interstellar 
     trade making up the shortfall. 
     
     IDEAS FOR ALTERNATE MEETING PLACES
     TAS hostel, office block lobby, library, hotel room, gymnasium, 
     Roleplaying game club, rifle range, martial arts dojo, vehicle, 
     starport hangar, private investigator's office, executive recruitment 
     (ie headhunter's) office, employment service, starport pension office, 
     scout/navy base, warehouse, drug den, power station, computer store, 
     air-raft retailer, broker's office, merchant captain's starship cabin, 
     local government representative's office, city council chambers, 
     barber shop, newsagent, bookshop, childcare facility (maybe?), 
     military barracks, private home, university campus, ... ? 
     
     SOME EXPLANATIONS FOR BIZARRE UWPs
     Some possible explanations for those really weird UWP profiles: 
     1. High tech and/or starport, low (or zero) pop: artifacts, small 
     facility (up to 9 persons; a research lab or military observation 
     post), robotic mining outpost, robotic starport facility, aftermath of 
     planetary nuclear/biological warfare. 
     2. High gov, low law: population is naturally highly structured, most 
     people wouldn't *dream* of hurting anybody else, taking property, etc. 
     Alternatively, the government is highly democratic/populist, with each 
     individual taking a great deal of responsibility for their own actions 
     and the actions of others, but with no formal legal structure. 
     3. High law, low (or zero) government: informal customs predominate; 
     these might be shared by all inhabitants of the planet or vary from 
     family to family. Individuals are expected to abide by a restrictive 
     code of conduct, enforced by other individuals. 
     4. High population, low (or zero) technology: a hellhole, possibly a 
     prison world where criminals are dumped to rot. 
     5. High population, low (or zero) hydrographics: people either adapted 
     to dry conditions (eg Bedouin, Jonkereen, Fremen) or using extensive 
     water production/reclamation techniques. Depends on Tech level. 
     6. Size zero, atmosphere/hydrographics present: Ancient intervention 
     (!), ice asteroids, frozen gas asteroids, terraformed planetoid, 
     volcanic outgassing on planetoid (temporary, v.thin, trace or exotic 
     atmosphere), facility floating in upper reaches of a gas giant's 
     atmosphere! 
     7. Help(?)
     
     GAMES WORKSHOP
     Idea: GW shops have rules that you can only bring GW stuff to their 
     gaming sessions. How about either: 
     a) take in some of the old licenced GW Traveller materials, "but you 
     said we could use GW stuff!" By the time they can check with their 
     head office in London, you can run off with half of their clients 
     (check that this is legal in your country). 
     b) take in handwritten Traveller combat rules to use with *their* 
     miniatures "so, the battledress trooper fires his PGMP at the Droyne 
     warrior, er, sorry, the Space Marine sergeant fires his flamer at the 
     Genestealer"  
     c) take in some GDW materials and try to pass them off for GW 
     materials! "I'm sure that D is just a typo!"
     d) just come clean and ask if you can use their shop to run Traveller 
     sessions - you won't be stealing their customers, and you might even 
     get some Trav players interested in GW stuff (f*ck yeah!) 
     e) go off like a frog in a sock; start raving about how come the 
     sergeants and officers, who are supposedly the most experienced and 
     intelligent veteran soldiers, run around on decrepit space hulks and 
     alien planets firing high energy weapons, carrying bloody great 
     coloured banners with 'shoot me' rampant on a field of blood, without 
     wearing their *helmets*? Promotion opportunies must be pretty good in 
     the Imperial Space Marines.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #469
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Traveller-digest         Monday, 30 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 470

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Transhumanism/SF
         2. Re: Shadows Plans Updated
         3. Re: Article 5
         4. T4 Tasks too easy? (was My T4 review)
         5. Re:  Traveller-digest V1996 #461
         6. Re: blow all starboard hatches!
         7. Re: T4 Tasks too easy? (was My T4 review)
         8. Re: MMT Errata & Suggestions
         9. Re: Various (long); water, fiction, places, UWPs, Games Workshop
        10. Naval Bases
        11. Exit Visa
        12. Letting the air out of the balloon
        13. Roleplaying vs. Skills
        14. Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills
        15. Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills
        16. Re: MMT Errata & Suggestions
        17. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #462
        18. Traveller Chronicle #11
        19. Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills
        20. Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 04:52:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Transhumanism/SF

John Snead jsnead@netcom.com, he say:
[snippage]
>Transhumanist Traveller, I love it!
>I'd be very interesting in a discussion of such variant Traveller games. 
>I've often thought about trying to run such a game, but the problem I've
>found is that the setting can be simply too alien for many players.

A problem I've worried about myself. Novelists can get away with levels of
weirdness which GMs can't, partly because games are interactive:; they
players keep interrupting with "Huh? What?"

>I strongly recommend all of Gregory Benford's "galactic core" novels:

Ashamed to say I haven't read 'em; perhaps I will (_Timescape_ is the
greatest!). I must admit I have some difficulty believing in a scenario in
which the sentient machines are trying to rub out all the organic sentients
- - maybe it makes sense in context but I just don't get it (even though I've
read reviews of these books). Are the mechs competing with us for
resources? They just don't like us? Huh? What?

>Also try Eon and Eternity by Greg Bear and Michael Swanwick's novel Vacuum
>Flowers.

Lots of influence from _Eon_ in the background I'm working up; the Hexamon
is one of the best, most consistent ultra-high-tech societies I've seen
dipicted in SF. Gotta have "picting" in my game somehow. And I liked
_Vacuum Flowers_ a lot. The orbital slums in particular. Swanwick clearly
knows something about cultural anthropology and does a great job of
inventing weirdly organized societies. 

>So, how would you run a post-human game which players can truly grasp and
>be a part of? 

The way to do it, I think, is to go slow. Don't throw everything at the
players at once. Start them off all playing orthomorph humans, on some
basically familiar Travelleresque spaceship/station/whatever, and let them
discover the rest of the universe bit by bit, one NPC, one world, one
measured dose of culture shock at a time. (That's the *theory*, at any
rate...)

It helps that many of my player friends have read many of the same books
I've read  :)

>I'd also love to see some more of your ideas on what such a setting should be
>like.

Well, I'll be posting my ideas here from time to time. For instance, I'm
working up a document on the history of cloneworlds in my campaign. Just
scribbling notes yesterday I came up with about seven distinct variants of
clone-dominated societies. I can post it here when I'm done if anyone's
interested. (For all I know I'm reinventing the wheel for the sixteenth
time...)

>I recommend that nanotech be avoided in such a setting.  It has the
>potential to very easily become the "everything device" and make most
>gaming scenarios rather pointless. 

I agree completely. I wrote up a two-page tech level table (BECAUSE THERE
**ISN'T** ONE IN T4 [ahem... sorry]) which I won't be posting here because
it's a Quark Xpress document and it's somewhat ideosyncratic. Anyway, I
worked it so that *limited* nanofacturing (molecular-level mass
manufacturing) appears at tech 12 or so, and something like Neal
Stephenson's "Feed" and "matter compilers" at tech 15. And there'll be bits
and pieces from Bear's _Queen of Angels_ and _Moving Mars_ (NOT Bell
Descriptor manipulation, of course!). But mature nanotech - universal
nanofacturing, replicators, mind-downloading, and so on - is still
speculative vaporware, maybe tech 16 or 17+.

I justify the slow development and spread of nanotech by deciding that
there are technical hurdles which Drexler et al. have not anticipated, or
conveniently handwave away. At Tech 12, limited STM-style nano-manipulators
can assemble nano-electronic devices, amazing materials, etc., but they can
only do so in ultra-high-vacuum conditions and at very low temperatures
(50-100 degrees K, perhaps). Other technical hurdles include unforseen
difficulties in programming assembler arrays; the notion of "evolved design
and manufacturing software" trumpeted by Drexler never quite panned out in
this future history.

Mind you, I don't believe a word of the above paragraph: I've read debates
between Drexler and highly knowledgeable critics, and he either persuades
or demolishes them every time. The problems I've cited will fade after the
first few generations of assemblers, a matter of mere decades. I have great
expectations for evolved software (have you read Kevin Kelly's _Out of
Control_? Good stuff. Or _Artificial Life_ by Steven Levy?). Genetic
algorithms and digital evolution are going to transform our world over the
next twenty years. I expect nanotech as advanced as that of _Queen of
Angels_ to appear with shocking suddenness, as early as 2015. Once
developed, it won't stay bottled up in one or two labs for very long. It'll
proliferate like wildfire, even without replicators (which are neither
necessary nor desireable).

A lot of claims have been made for nanotech which are just pure bunk. But
the reality is still going to be astonishing. Not to mention dangerous as
heck.

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
 "I see it now! Madness IS the way!" -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 04:37:58 -0700
Subject: Re: Shadows Plans Updated

Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> In response to several requests, I've included overview plans for the levels
> in the Shadows adventure.  I've also finished entering descriptions for each
> location (even those without detailed plans yet).  The plans, as always, are
> at:
> 
> http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GaminfClub/Traveller/Shadows.html
> 

I can't connect to the above; I keep getting the infamous "URL...not
found on this server" message. I've tried multiple times and at
different times (including 3:45am CDT) Anyone else having this problem?

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 07:05:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Article 5

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Charlie wrote:

> It seems to Me that all We can can ask for, or would want would be a
> Rule set is that it lets Us select the content and flavor of our
> campaigns. If You ran for My mixed Adult Group then You have one type of
> Game. If You run for the Guys in the Barracks it is another and if You
> run for the Folks after School You got a third. All of these Players are
> different, all have unique requirements of Us as GM's. Do We want Rules
> or Design philosophy limiting or guideing our choies? I do not think so. 

I think you're right, and I also think that Marc Miller isn't trying to 
dictate the flavor of our individual games.  What he is probably saying 
is that all /published/ Traveller material will stick to his guidelines...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:48:11 +0100
Subject: T4 Tasks too easy? (was My T4 review)

Thomas Biskup wrote:

     Also the 4D rating for impossible tasks seems to
     be a little too low (someone with a good attribute, e.g. 11, and a
     moderate skill level, e.g. 2, has about a 50% chance to succeed at an
     impossible task which seems to be too high) -- on the other hand this
     adds a nice cinematique feel to the whole system (a little bit like
     Star Wars).
     
I've been thinking that the chances "to hit" in the combat system seem too 
high.

Jo Average (Dex 7, skill 1) has 72% chance to hit someone 4-15m away (short 
range).  Remember, the default shot is a snapshot (no aiming), whilst 
moving, directed at another moving target.

I ran the figures through T4 and Phoenix Command (my "reference" for this 
kind of thing) for Mr/s Average & Professional, and found that T4 gives 
significantly better chance to hit.  Equalising the figures would require 
increasing the tasks by about two difficulty levels.

I think acceptable results could be produced by increasing combat tasks by 
1 level.  This would still be a bit unrealistic, but keep combat within 10' 
(3m) using 2D6.

Comments?

Proot!
Liam

- -- 
Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

From: Scott Ripley <abiscott@pop.erols.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:58:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1996 #461

At 11:50 PM 9/27/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Me: (the 300-tonner is just the right size and shape for the Millenium Falcon)
>Somebody Else: So, when are you going to post the full Millenium Falcon design?
>
>Scott Ripley <abiscott@pop.erols.com> wrote:
>> PSST: The Free Trader has ALWAYS been the right size and shape to be the
>> Falcon...check your CT illos (smile)
>
>Yes, sort-of; the Keiths always did draw it that way.
>
>On the other hand, I scaled a model of the Falcon, and it worked out to
>about 314 displacement tons.  I used to have a complete set of Falcons (both
>the stock light trader and the pirateship versions) for Classic Traveller.
>
>As you well know; didn't one of your characters buy a rather used on in one
>of my campaigns?  ;-)
>
>
>wildstar@qrc.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!
>

It wasn't USED...it had CHARACTER!!!  A real Fixer-upper :)

Mudball McCoy Lives!  Fear for your Plantets!!!!


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 05:44:20 PST
Subject: Re: blow all starboard hatches!

In mail you write:

>> cause a 32,000 pound ship's boat to lurch at one gee.
>> 
>> If you prefer metric (like I do), then multiply the pressure in pascals
>> (1 atmosphere equals about 100,000 pascals) by the area of the hole in
>> square meters, and you get the thrust in newtons (about 5 newtons in a
>> pound). This has the advantage that if you're using the formula I gave
>> above, you've already calculated the area in square meters (about 1,500
>> square inches in a square meter).
>
> Rob, does that mean that if the pressure is 1 atmosphere and the hole in 
> the hull is a large hatch (2 sq metres) then the thrust in the first 
> couple of seconds (with a 100 ton ship) is 200000N? Does this also mean 
> that for approx two seconds, maybe longer, the ship could be thrust at 
> 2Gs from its course? 

His figures have *got* to be way off. And in fact they are. While there
*is* a relationship between pressure and thrust, there are a lot of
other factors involved. 2,000,000 newtons is 400,000 pounds thrust.
That's in the same league as *large* rocket engine. A mere hole in the
hull *won't give those thrust levels.

Consider that by his formula, opening a bottle of pop (at something
like 50-75 psi) should knock you over. It doesn't.

Somebody posted figures for the average molecular velocity of the
molecules. If the interior walls and exterior hull were shaped such as
to form a DeLaval nozzle, then you could treat it like a rocket. In
which case the thrust is directly related to the exhaust velocity.
Which is that same molecular velocity. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:31:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Tasks too easy? (was My T4 review)

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Liam McCauley wrote:

> I've been thinking that the chances "to hit" in the combat system seem too 
> high.
> 
> Jo Average (Dex 7, skill 1) has 72% chance to hit someone 4-15m away (short 
> range).  Remember, the default shot is a snapshot (no aiming), whilst 
> moving, directed at another moving target.

Is it realistic?  I really don't know.  But I like it this way. :) 
I think it's boring to have a combat consisting of more misses than 
hits.  "Okay, so I fire at him....and miss."  "I fire at her....and 
miss."  "I fire at him....and miss."  "I fire at Gargon the Great....and 
miss."  "I fire at the little old lady....and miss."  "ARRGHH!  I give 
up!  My character puts the gun to his head and pulls the trigger." 
GM: "Oooh, sorry, you miss." :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 06:44:00 PST
Subject: Re: MMT Errata & Suggestions

In mail you write:

>      MMT ERRATA/SUGGESTIONS

<snip>

>      p89 HEPlaR is the only drive that requires reaction mass. Thrusters 
>      only need power. 

Silly question from someone who doesn't have the book. Any chance they
are actually referring to *thrusters* (as in "steering jets" as opposed
to "reactionless main drive"?)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 06:48:18 PST
Subject: Re: Various (long); water, fiction, places, UWPs, Games Workshop

In mail you write:

>      SOME EXPLANATIONS FOR BIZARRE UWPs
>      Some possible explanations for those really weird UWP profiles: 
>      4. High population, low (or zero) technology: a hellhole, possibly a 
>      prison world where criminals are dumped to rot. 

The one our group mostly used, especially if the atmosphere value was
anything odd was "population isn't humans". That'll cover just about
anything, and it gives the imaginative GM room for all sorts of things.

Just picture the fun if the players made contact with, say Mesklin
(from Hal Clement's Mission of Gravity). It'd be *worth* designing the
weird life support just to watch what happens when your forces start
deploying fighters that can manuever at 100g (or however much more you
can squeeze out of Traveller drives). After all Mesklinites think 200g
is comfortable, and don't mind 800 all that much. :-)

Can you say slaughter? :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Ed Dowgiallo <edowgial@prolog.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:14:57 -0400
Subject: Naval Bases

Anyone aware of where I could dig up the plans for a naval base? 
Anybody's naval base?

Ed

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 10:44:28 -0400
Subject: Exit Visa

Thomas Biskup wrote:
>Something I was wondering about: "Exit Visa"
>starts on 300-1105.  Does this date correspond to the year 5626 AD (=
>4521 AD [Founding of the Third Empire] + 1105)?  Probably not, since
>this would be after the Rebellion. 
It does mean 1105 years after the founding of the 3rd Imperium.
The Rebellion happened in 1116, eleven years AFTER the Exit Visa adventure.  

Lewis Roberts
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Wanted: One Cool Sig
lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:18:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Letting the air out of the balloon

Hi.

Simon John Harding said:

>From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
>Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 12:48:48 +1300
>Subject: Re: blow all starboard hatches!

>> If you prefer metric (like I do), then multiply the pressure in pascals
>> (1 atmosphere equals about 100,000 pascals) by the area of the hole in
>> square meters, and you get the thrust in newtons (about 5 newtons in a
>> pound). This has the advantage that if you're using the formula I gave

>Rob, does that mean that if the pressure is 1 atmosphere and the hole in 
>the hull is a large hatch (2 sq metres) then the thrust in the first 
>couple of seconds (with a 100 ton ship) is 200000N? Does this also mean 
>that for approx two seconds, maybe longer, the ship could be thrust at 
>2Gs from its course? 

Replace "G" by "meters per second squared."

>This confirms what I had always thought but it had been previously 
>denied on this list.

This is true as long as your 100 ton ship MASSES 100 thousand kilograms.
Well, "duh Rob," you might say, "the definition of a ton is 1000 kg!"
Then I would have to remind that in Trav, a ton is a measure of VOLUME,
not MASS. According to MT, the "100 ton" scout courier MASSES about
1 million kilograms. (I always use the "1 ton = 10,000 kg" approximation
when the need arises to know a ship's MASS; it just feels about right to
me. These ships should float in water, but not be as buoyant as a beach
ball!)

If you find this confusing, that's because it is. (Sheesh, I have enough
trouble getting my students to differentiate between mass and weight,
because we use the same units for each. Now we Travllers use the same units for
mass and /volume/!)

So a two meter hole in a 100 ton, 1,000,000 kg scout courier would
(assuming 1 atmosphere pressure) accellerate that booger at 0.02 G.

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: Pete Blake <peteb@digicon-egr.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:53:39 +0100
Subject: Roleplaying vs. Skills

Hi,

I have a question for you all with regards roleplaying and skills in T4.

When a situation comes up where certain skills would be useful, how much
do you take into account the skill levels of the characters and how much
does the player's role playing come into account?

Typical skills I refer to include carousing, liason, diplomacy, bribery
and streetwise.  

How do you play out the use of these skills in your games?  I can see
situations which range from completely no roleplaying;

Player:  I bribe the offical with 1000 Cr
Ref:     Make a difficult check against bribery.
Player:  Made it!
Ref:     He takes your bribe and ...

right through to no real use of the character's skills and total
reliance on the player's verbal skills.

Where do you draw the line?  Do you give bonuses on a skill check based
on the player's role playing?  Do you set the level of difficulty of the
task according to what the player says his character says and does?

I am just about to start my first campaign in a long while and I think
I'll probably try to do it this way:

When the PCs need to use a skill of this nature I will get them to role
play exactly what their characters say and do, I will then determine the
task level according to their actions and make the task roll for them,
based on their character's skills.  I will then roleplay the actions of
the people they are dealing with according to the success of the task
check.

This way a good role player will be more successful with an average
character than a poor role player would be with the same character.  Is
this fair?  I can only think it is as otherwise traveller would end up
being a "roll-playing" game which we all know it is not.  Also I think
this encourages good role players to chose skills which require role
playing to help set the task roll level.  Those players who are perhaps
not so good at/interested in roleplay can play computer buffs/star
pilots/grunts and still have a good time (which is, after all, what it's
all about).

I would appreciate some comments/advice/good ole fashioned flames on my
thoughts.

(Sorry if this is covered in detail in the T4 rules, but I'm still
waiting for my copy).

Regards,

Pete.

------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:23:57 -0700
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills

This is kind of a difficult line to draw.  I would rule that in the case of "roleplaying 
skills" you might want to give bonuses, but that would be a judgement call.  Not 
everyone is going to be as good at it as others and so on.  So called people skills are 
a good example (streetwise, bribery, fast talk, etc.) would be one example.  Don't hold 
it against them if they're not very good at it though.  How would someone know what an 
initail good bribe would be?  If it was too low, they recipient would just ignore him.  
Obviously tech skills would be more difficult to roleplay.  I wouldn't try to force my 
players into a situation that depends on them roleplaying something they have no 
experience with.  Just my opin.  I'm sure there will be others! :)

Matt

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:45:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills

I try to strike a balance, but I almost always greatly reward good role
playing skills.  Often this may be as simple as a DM, for instance if a
player says:

"I use my bribery-3 and 1000 credits to bribe the inspecotr"

I will basically rely on skill alone.

However, if the player also goes into some detail:

"Syd Spaceman casually approaches the Inspector as he is running down the
checklist for the pending inspection of Syd's ship. 'Ah, it's good to see
the officials in this starport are so efficient, and so dilligent. I do
hope they compensate well for all of your efforts good sir....What?? You
are to have me believe that the pay here for one such as yourself is less
than desirable? Now that is just wrong....perhaps there is some way I can
help? Perhaps....we could help each other....you see some of my papers
seem to have been...ah...misplaced, and the fees and fines involved in
fixing that run well into the thousands, even tens of thousands...perhaps
you could assist me and tell me if there is any way we could say, cut the
red tape? I would be perfectly willing to compensate you for your time in
this matter, you know, helping me sort this out. I am so terrible with
paperwork,  am always forgetting something..."


This is admittedly transparant, but is an off the cuff example of what
might gain a player a +1 or +2 Dm to their bribery roll...provided of
course that they are playing in charracter.



As in all things as a ref, I have found that discretion and balance is the
key, I also don't want to penalize those whose role playing abilities are
not as advanced as others. I would rather help them and encourage them to
get more into character than to punish them.  Its all about having fun
after all :)

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:12:40 +0000
Subject: Re: MMT Errata & Suggestions

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Silly question from someone who doesn't have the book. Any chance they
> are actually referring to *thrusters* (as in "steering jets" as opposed
> to "reactionless main drive"?)

Refers to Thruster Plates, antigrav propulsion

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 18:06 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #462

In-Reply-To: <9609280739.AA19508@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:46:35 PST
Subject: Re: Favourite SF novels

In mail you write:

> 10 Great SF Stories & Novellas:
> (in alphabetical order)

One story that players and refs should read, just to get the feel of
what things were like *before* thruster plates is "The Cold Equations"
by Tom Godwin (I think that's the author's name). >>

Agreed 100%. One of the best SF stories ever written.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:05:48 -0400
Subject: Traveller Chronicle #11

   Attention on deck!

   Word from Kevin Knight is that Traveller Chronicle #11, which is scheduled
to contain a large amount of "Children of Earth" material and the first part
of a Traveller fiction piece written by Terry Mcinnes, will be going to the
printers within the next few weeks.  Trouble in getting payments from
distributors have kept it on hold up until now.

   Further updates when I have them.

Regards,

Harold


------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:15:36 +0000
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills

I always make them roleplay it and give apenalty or bonus based on how well they did 
and the person (I go easier on shy people)
That way it doesn't matter squat they have 12 Int and 6 bargaining if they say "ok, can I 
roll now?" they take a penalty of 50% right off the bat
Now, on the other hand, if I feel like buying the product myself after their spiel, they 
may get up to a 50% bonus

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:27:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Pete Blake wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I have a question for you all with regards roleplaying and skills in T4.
> 
> When a situation comes up where certain skills would be useful, how much
> do you take into account the skill levels of the characters and how much
> does the player's role playing come into account?

In a general sense, I'd have to say "it depends" (on the 
situation being role-played, on the interests and skills of the players 
and referee, etc.).  :)

But specifically in _my_ campaigns, role-playing tends to come into 
account in the overall planning areas, while roll-playing tends to 
resolve the individual tasks.  For instance, rather than making a 
task roll when a character is supposed to come up with a plan for 
infiltrating a secure building, the player will come up with the plan.  
The execution of that plan, however, will involve some task resolution 
(whacking the gaurd on the head to knock him out; picking the lock; 
disabling the electronic security system).  Such task resolutions are 
only rarely influenced by role-play in our games.  The execution of the 
plan will, of course, also involve role-playing of other aspects.  :)  
I'm having a hard time nailing down exactly when each method is used, and 
when a combination is used, though.  Hmmm.  I just do "what feels right." :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Monday, 30 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 471

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Modelling Advice Needed
         2. Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills 
         3. Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills
         4. RE: Roleplaying vs. Skills
         5. T4 Arrives in England
         6. Wot Regency
         7. Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills
         8. Transhumanism
         9. Re; Roleplaying vs. Skills
        10. Subsector mapping programs
        11. On Holiday
        12. Great Reading!!!
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #470
        14. Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed
        15. IT'S HERE!
        16. The Poor Steward
        17. Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills
        18. Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues
        19. Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:32:32 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Modelling Advice Needed

Were you planning on making these (mold making and casting) or just
bashing them?  And what scale?

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:35:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills 

When I discuessed just this point with a friend, he suggested using 
the skill roll to indicate delivery but letting the player provide the 
content.  Examples:

With fast-talk, the player decides what the character says ("I claim 
I just dropped my car-keys and was looking for them here by the door 
to his apartment.")  but the roll decides whether he delivers this 
excuse convincingly.

With bribery, the player decides the amount of the bribe, then rolls.
If he succeeds, fine.  If he fails, the GM either tells him the amount 
was too low ("The guy is still looking at you expectantly, only he 
seems more hostile now.") or says "He can't take it if you offer it 
in that obvious way! What if someone saw?" or "No, no, you can't just 
shove money at someone of his status.  It's insulting."  or something 
of the sort.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:35:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:

> As in all things as a ref, I have found that discretion and balance is the
> key, I also don't want to penalize those whose role playing abilities are
> not as advanced as others. I would rather help them and encourage them to
> get more into character than to punish them.  Its all about having fun
> after all :)

I agree...that's the approach I use as well.  I don't say, "Well, you 
didn't role-play that task, so you get a DM -2 on your throw."  Rather, 
when someone happens to come up with a good role-playing idea, or a good 
plan, or whatever, they get positive DM's.  No penalties for being unable 
to come up with good task-related role-playing, though.  And I don't ask 
my players to do that - I don't want to put them on the spot.

Call it subtle, positive reinforcement of behavior if you like. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:48:57 -0700
Subject: RE: Roleplaying vs. Skills

It occurs to me that there are two ways of role-playing out the majority
of skills in Traveller.  Bribery is a perfect example.  You could use
the skill very abstractly  (where the success of the player is dependent
on a single roll, as in Pete Blake's example) or as an aide to the
player, following the tenents of the skill.  For example, bribery's
tenent is 'everyone has a price.'

PC:  "H'okay, I'm going to have to bribe this merchant."
GM:  "What will you offer him?"
PC:  "I don't know.  I'm going to use my bribery skill to figure that
out."
GM:  "Well, you don't speak the local language very well, but this _is_
an antiquities shop, the proprieter does seem well Educated, and you
have a History skill of 3 and a PhD...  It seems difficult, but not
impossible."
*clatter*
GM:  "Okay, you made it by a couple of points.  This shops crammed with
things, and the owner has more than a few crates of books stacked up
behind him.  He'd probably be interested in a larger shop."
PC:  "Alright, I'm going to make some small talk and pass myself off as
a rich offworld philanthropist, and offer to 'donate' 1000Cr..."

Other skills work the same way.  Unless the situation is really trivial
(not plot related) I use skills this way.

Jeffrey

>----------
>From: 	mchildre@pcshs.com[SMTP:mchildre@pcshs.com]
>Sent: 	Monday, September 30, 1996 9:23 AM
>To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: 	Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills
>
>This is kind of a difficult line to draw.  I would rule that in the case of
>"roleplaying 
>skills" you might want to give bonuses, but that would be a judgement call.
>Not 
>everyone is going to be as good at it as others and so on.  So called people
>skills are 
>a good example (streetwise, bribery, fast talk, etc.) would be one example.
>Don't hold 
>it against them if they're not very good at it though.  How would someone
>know what an 
>initail good bribe would be?  If it was too low, they recipient would just
>ignore him.  
>Obviously tech skills would be more difficult to roleplay.  I wouldn't try to
>force my 
>players into a situation that depends on them roleplaying something they have
>no 
>experience with.  Just my opin.  I'm sure there will be others! :)
>
>Matt
>

------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 30 Sep 96 14:33:05 EDT
Subject: T4 Arrives in England

Well, thanks to Andy Lily, my nice shiny new T4 has arrived <huzzah!> Now I feel
I can start to contribute.

Initial reactions are as follows. Like the colour art; yeah, you can't point at
it and say "That's a scout/courier!" (although the Beowulf on the cover is
recognizable), but it sets the mood nicely. All Foss' art is on an enormous
_scale_, and it helps remind GMs not to set their scenes in 10' square rooms...

I'd never seen a single table with all the surprise mods on before. I'll use
_that_ immediately.

My primary problem, sadly, is with the task system. Because stats vastly
outweigh skills in the calculation of target numbers, the whole approach to
character generation changes. Unless I see it wrong, what results is a slew of
characters taking no more than skill-1 in any field and piling the rest into
stat increases. No, I have to side with those who suggested that something like
skill+(stat/2) would be better.

I like the idea of armour reducing damage - spot the RQ player! I never really
took to reducing stats as a damage mechanism tne first time around - too fiddly
for NPCs for a start.

One thing that would have been nice would be an analogue of "Survival Margin" -
a conversion system between MT and T4. Ostensibly to bridge the gap for those
converting an MT campaign, but also to allow us retros sticking with MT to
convert new stuff _back_! Maybe on the web page, IG?

It does feel a bit like losing an arm to be capped at TL12. And where have
droyne, gauss rifles, PGMPs gone?

All in all, it's nice to see Traveller survive, and I will buy the supplements -
of course! But I don't think I'll ever run T4 as a rule set. Our tweaked melange
of CT/MT works just fine. What we will do is plunder T4 for ideas, background
and so on.

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 30 Sep 96 14:33:00 EDT
Subject: Wot Regency

>	and tested them in deserts, the Regency "Ministery of the >	Interior"
concentrates on existing humans. >> Duh, what's "the Regency?"   ;-)

Read "The Spinward Marches". One of the marvellously credible plot lines for
which TNE is so famous for resulted in the original sector being spared Virus'
depradations in the mistaken belief that it would help ease people into TNE with
a familar geography.

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------] | Hugh Foster
100326,446             100326.446@compuserve.com |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]



------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:35:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills

    For the past couple of years I've run RuneQuest almost exclusively, which
is based on a straight %-ile system, but when/if I run Traveller I plan to
keep my GMing technique the same.  I let everything run organically through
rp'ing, until the point when a player tries to do something obviously
covered by a skill, from attempting a fast-talk to attacking someone, at 
which point I demand a skill roll.  In effect, this makes rp'ing the catalyst
for skill tests, but the skill itself determines success.  For instance, if
Joe Merchant comes flat out and says "I want to fast-talk him" I'll respond
"well, don't say it, do it" at which point Joe's player will have to rp the 
attempt, even though the actual success is determined by the character's
skill.  This method tends to discourage players from coming up with
characters too different from their own personality types (if Johnny the
Player never initiates contact, it doesn't matter how Persuasive his
character is; likewise if Jack the Character has a Fast Talk of 05% it 
doesn't really matter how Persuasive his Player is) but I don't see this as
being a problem-- all of my players come up with characters that are 
compatible with their personality types anyway.
     I don't know how well such a system would work in general, but I've
been playing with more-or-less the same group of people for the past 10 
years or so and it's always worked fine for us.

Ateempting an Orate roll right now,

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:05:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Transhumanism

Hi.

John Snead said:

>From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
>Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 12:10:54 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Inspirational reading/cybertech

[...]

>Transhumanist Traveller, I love it!

>[...]  As
>for literary inspirations, I strongly recommend (in addition to the
>Shaper/Mech books): 

>All of  Gregory Benford's "galactic core" novels:

>The Great Sky River, Tides of Light, Furious Gulf and Sailing Bright
>Eternity. 

>Also try Eon and Eternity by Greg Bear and Michael Swanwick's novel Vacuum
>Flowers. 
 <snip>

Or my favorite of the transhumanist novels, Kurt Vonnegut's "Galopagos"
;^)

(Or should that be "subhumanist?")

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:39:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re; Roleplaying vs. Skills

We've adopted a sort of informal rule.  If the PC has the relevant skill 
and the player is willing to describe what the PC says and does in great 
detail (roleplay the entire conversation, etc...) then, if the player is 
convincing, the PC succeeds, no roll needed.

If the player isn't up for this (some players can't run bribery to save 
their life) then the player described what their character is doing, and 
this description modifies the outcome of the roll.  We do lots of deep 
in-character RP, and so the "I make a bribery roll" purely mechanical 
approach simply feels to sterile for us.

Basically, I've found that their is a limited place for diceless play in 
gaming.  If the PC is in a situation where they control most of the 
variables, and the player is up to describing how they do this, then dice 
are not needed.  If too many events out of the hands of the player, 
and/or the player isn't up for this level of description then we add in a 
roll.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
 

------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:58:29 MST7
Subject: Subsector mapping programs

Well, I've seen two posts on the subject, so I'll chime in here.

On the old sunbane site, now ftp.engrg.uwo.ca , there is/was a 
program called sub2ps, written by some long gone or long lurking 
tml'er (Travis McCord if anyone knows where he is right now).  It takes text files consisting of lines of world data, plus 
data for x-boat routes, borders, etc and outputs them to a very 
pretty Postscript file. It is available as rather generic C source 
code plus documentation.  It compiled without complaint on several unix systems (DEC 
Ultrix, Dec Unix with gcc, Linux, gcc again, so I suppose it would 

	It doesn't take the DGP data as written, so I whipped together a MS 
DOS qbasic program to take in the dgp sector files, plug in some data 
(Sector name, bordering sector names) and chopped them into subsector 
size chunks, with the proper layout for sub2ps.

	I will put both on my web page today sometime:

	http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/gaming.html

	But it'll be the first update to that site in quite a while...for instance 
my Traveller section mentions GDW folding 'last month'...

	  sub2ps will be posted as sub2ps.tar.gz

	My stuff will be posted as a PC .zip file called travprog.zip.

	I have to write up the documentation for the stuff I did so it'll be 
a few hours...after all I have a job to do here, but during lunchtime 
my system is mine to use...

	The qbasic stuff will compile fine with QuickBasic 4.0, the qb.exe 
that shipped with MS-DOS 6.x is the same as QuickBasic 4.5 without 
the compile stuff.  I think I have a copy of QuickBasic around 
somewhere so I may be able to put an executable on line as well.

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:10:14 -0400
Subject: On Holiday

Just called IG with a question and got a recording saying they were "on
holiday" this week. I guess they deserve a vacation :) Hope STARSHIPS ships
on time, though! So if you can't get ahold of them, you'll know why.
                        Allen

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:52:49 -0500
Subject: Great Reading!!!

Well, I will admit that I am NOT the most well read sci-fi fan, but I have
read a bit, and I am amazed that one of my FAVORITE selections has not been
mentioned.  Yes, I know this selection has little Traveller feel to it, but
others have admited that their selections were not very Travelleresque.  My
favorites are Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat books.  I said that they
weren't very Traveller, but I think I was wrong.  They are definitely not
HARD, HARD Sci-Fi, but they are good (IMNSHO).  Some great adventures can be
gleaned from the pages.  Just my 2 bits.

Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:52:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #470

>From: Pete Blake <peteb@digicon-egr.co.uk>
>Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:53:39 +0100
>Subject: Roleplaying vs. Skills
>
<<<...snippage...>>>
>
>When a situation comes up where certain skills would be useful, how much
>do you take into account the skill levels of the characters and how much
>does the player's role playing come into account?
>
>Typical skills I refer to include carousing, liason, diplomacy, bribery
>and streetwise.  

Well, I think Joe has already hit on the point behind this.  The rule is
probably something like, "Do what your gut tells you."  While this is great
sounding, it doesn't really help.

My own (admitedly limited) opinion on the subject is that when someone tries
to use one of these skills, as in...

>Player:  I bribe the offical with 1000 Cr

You would first make sure that the player's background knowledge is what the
character's would be.  For example, in the above bribery example, you might
say...

Referee:  <character> would know that the minimum bribe is at least 2500 Cr
for this type of action.  Now tell me what you would tell the official.

Hopefully this will get the player acting in the role of his character, but
if not,

Player:  Duh, gee, I dunno, what do I have to roll?

you could keep egging him on till he comes up with something.  My experience
has been that most players prefer rolling their own dice, so rather than
tellingthem what they need to roll, just have them roll (after they have
role played a bit).  When they roll, depending on what the roll is, have
them role play out the results...

Player:  I rolled a 7, did he take the bribe?

Ref:  (Acting as official) "Well, Mr. <character>, Your offer sounds good,
but there are complications involved.  The law of Regina, expressly forbids
me from taking any bribes."

Player:  (Hopefully now acting as character) "I see, well since we are the
only two people here, and since I wouldn't tell anyone, and you wouldn't
tell anyone...  Well, what the law doesn't know about won't hurt anyone,
only help us."

Or something like that.  I think that you should be careful in penalizing
poorer role players for a playing a weak role.  I think excellent role
playing should be rewarded, and refusal to play a roll (ie, Player: Come on,
man, just tell me what I gotta roll), should be punished, but player ability
to "act" shouldn't change the outcome much.

So, as a rule of thumb, I would say encourage your players to PLAY their
ROLE and not ROLL their PLAY.


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 30 Sep 1996 15:41:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed

>Try painting the critters in your desired base color...

Guess I wasn't clear enough.

I'm trying to construct models of the nasties, not just paint existing
models.  (Good advice for painting, mind you - sounds like what I do now.)  I
figure there's no point in trying to model an ant in 25mm scale, so I'm
trying to figure out how to model a swarm of ants.  The same thing with
flies/wasps/etc.

I think I can do ants with coloured powders sprinkled on a grass surface, but
I'm not certain how to do slightly larger critters - say mouse-sized.

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:11:37 -0400
Subject: IT'S HERE!

Well, the Long Night finally ended; my hardcover arrived today. It even has
the right number of pages!
        Now I can let my players begin the ritual destruction of my softcover...

Allen


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:52:45 -0500
Subject: The Poor Steward

I have a slight problem.

What skill is it that a Steward actually uses to see if he is a good
Steward.  I seem to recall a Service skill in one of the incarnations of
Traveller, but I know it isn't in T4.  Yes, I know I could add a Service
skill, but I don't want to do that if I don't have to.  Any other suggestions?


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:02:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Pete Blake wrote:
> When the PCs need to use a skill of this nature I will get them to role
> play exactly what their characters say and do, I will then determine the
> task level according to their actions and make the task roll for them,
> based on their character's skills.  I will then roleplay the actions of
> the people they are dealing with according to the success of the task
> check.
> 
> This way a good role player will be more successful with an average
> character than a poor role player would be with the same character.  Is
> this fair?  I can only think it is as otherwise traveller would end up
> being a "roll-playing" game which we all know it is not.  Also I think
> this encourages good role players to chose skills which require role
> playing to help set the task roll level.  Those players who are perhaps
> not so good at/interested in roleplay can play computer buffs/star
> pilots/grunts and still have a good time (which is, after all, what it's
> all about).

   Bear in mind that skills of this nature *should* IMO be used to bridge
knowledge (or poor role-playing skills) on the part of a player.

   For example, a player may not know how to approach some one with a
bribe, but a successful roll on a bribe skill will allow an attampt to
work. Likewise, a brilliant attempt by a knowledgable player should have a
significant chance of failing if he has no bribe skill. (In the former
case, the CHARACTER has the skill, while in the latter the CHARACTER is
clueless) To do things otherwise makes having a *character* pointless.

   Note that there are similar problems in other AOKs; for example tactics
skill. A militarily inexperienced player with a military character that
has tactics should be given a tactics to roll when making up a plan of
attack. If the roll succeeds, the GM should point out problems in the
players plan. A brilliant player that has no tactics skill will foul up
the op on details (GM intervention).

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:17:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 

> 
> <grin>  I ref'd _one_ session with a couple of bohemian-types, y'know what I'm
> talking about, goatees, body-piercing, lots of D&D, Ars Magica and "Vampire
> the Mass-Parade" playing.  I like it when my players add some input into the
> game (I think someone called it "cooperative GM'ing" or somesuch).  Anyway,
> these guys so defined their characters that I found myself making massive
> changes to the scenario just to oblige them.  I may be an old fart, but I'm
> just not that used to wholesale sharing of background development with the
> players.  I usually like to create a scenario and drop them into it to see
> what they do.  What these guys wanted was to help develop the story themselves
> -- it was wierd and not much fun.  We played an adventure, but definitely not
> the one I spent so much time developing.
> 
> I like the players to assist, but their suggestions and additions usually fit
> in the the game.

I'm that kind of player: I like to make suggestions to the GM buried in the character 
background to develop detail-ey things the GM might not have had time to work out, and 
let the GM take it (or leave it) from there. An example: for my military characters, I 
always detail the decorations and the circumstances in which they were earned. Most 
GMs _love it_ for their players to think of these things, but if they don't want me 
to develkop it, I leave it alone and come up with a dramatic equivalent. What I _don't_ 
do is use my character background as a springboard for either power-gaming ("I was 
involved in top-secret research on the Ultimate Nullifier during my time in the Navy . . 
. and, BTW, I have Electronics-7, Gravitics-5 and Engineering-9. When can I build my 
working model?") OR for tweaking the story off the GM's intended track the way these 
co-op GM types do.

> 
> Yep, one of the guys wanted to work for a "house" (read: clan) and I gave a
> concession allowing him to work for a mega-corp.  He wanted to have all these
> special weapons and skills that, frankly, he wanted to lift right out of
> Cyber-punk.  It's also difficult to play with folks that are constantly
> comparing the various internal systems (combat, chargen, etc.) with those of
> other games.  

Especially if you let someone import a character concept. My worst offender does this 
with _anime_ characters all the time, and I'm forever telling him two things: NO and 
HELL NO!

> I was distracted from actually "jacking in" to the game itself
> by the complaining, etc.  The other guy wanted to play a character who was in
> an organization that was a cross between the Cosa Nostra and, uh those

Yakuza?

> Japanese gangs, I forget what they're called.  Before I knew it, we were
> sitting around the table speaking in our New York/Italian accents and using
> every cliche in the book.  (it _was_ fun, but that's beside the point...)
> ;-)>

I did that with "mil-speak" in my Coalition game; littering my character's speech with 
the Complete Library of RC Military Slang From Hell: DZs, dustoff, C^3D, AFVs, ATGMs, 
and all the rest of the alphabet soup you find in a military environment. Good clean 
fun!

> 
> Those sorts of things just would fit in my Traveller backdrop.  Part of the
> enjoyment is that there is no "cosmic" scale threats (except maybe
> taxation--<g>).  That is why I've ignored activity on that scale since I
> recieved the JTAS issue about the 5th Froniter War and all subsequent events
> after that.

I like playing with cosmic-scale threats after the players learn about the universe a 
little bit; in this we disagree. I think players like being, as an ad in the final ish 
of _Challenge_ said, at the fulcrum of history.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:21:53 -0700
Subject: Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 
> Rich Ostorero said:
> 
> >The mechanics of FS _very closely_ resemble those of the Storyteller >System.
> If you don't know the system -- good for you.
> 
> Arrgh, storytelling!   <pulls out a cross and holds it up to monitor>

I can see the other side of this; "Wargaming! RUN AWAY!!" ;)


> 
> Sexist, pornographic, art-for-art's sake garbage? ;)
> 
> Bravo to Marc Miller for for Goal # 5 !!! <applause>   :-)>

That's one I agree with wholeheartedly, too. With a universe of adventure waiting for us 
in Milleu 0, who needs gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits?

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #471
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Traveller-digest         Monday, 30 September 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 472

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. How 'bout Books of the New Sun?
         2. Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed
         3. GDW-Beta...
         4. SEEKER...
         5. Big computers and little machines..
         6. Space babes!!!
         7. Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #470
         9. Re: The Poor Steward
        10. Re: T4 Tasks too easy? (was My T4 review)
        11. Re: Naval Bases
        12. Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills
        13. Re: Subsector mapping programs
        14. Player vs Character Personalities
        15. Re: The Poor Steward
        16. What We Need (longish, ranting)
        17. Re: The Poor Steward
        18. Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills
        19. Re: Modelling Advice Needed

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 30 Sep 96 18:03:26 EDT
Subject: How 'bout Books of the New Sun?

These were great reads from the perspective of a person in a once
technologically great, starfaring reality who is now living the wandering life
of a Torturer for Hire. Really great stuff. My highest rating, actually. 
MANY MANY great ideas for the TNE TEDID (Tech Elevated Dictatorship In Decay)
vein...

- -j

PS: written by Gene Wolfe, recently re-released as two trade-paperbacks
encompassing all 4 of the original books. Shadow and Claw(books 1&2) and Sword
and Citadel(books 3&4). 
Had I mentioned how much i liked these? ;->


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:07:51 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed

 
> I think I can do ants with coloured powders sprinkled on a grass surface, but
> I'm not certain how to do slightly larger critters - say mouse-sized.

You could try using sculpy or fimo clays (bake to harden) and roll
out little rat shapes.  A big rat (I'm looking at one right now next
to my desk---actually 4, but only the male is *big*) is maybe 6-8
inches long plus the tail, so call it maybe 2mm long (body).  Making
little rats like that wouldn't take too long.

You can get the clays in a ton of colors at an art supply store.
Epoxy putties would work as well, and are usually gray.

Good idea for the ants... remember that they will move in kind of a
line, darker in the middle, with a few outside the main path.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Sanders  <kalyn@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:20:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: GDW-Beta...

Could someone please post information as to how I can subscribe to the 
GDW-Beta mailing list? Thanks.

Paul

------------------------------

From: Sanders  <kalyn@netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:12:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: SEEKER...

Does anyone have an address with which I might be able to get in contact 
with the people at SEEKER? I don't mean the address on their products 
either :) Thanks.

Paul Sanders

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:54:35 -0700
Subject: Big computers and little machines..

pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant) said:

>I justify the slow development and spread of nanotech by deciding that
>there are technical hurdles which Drexler et al. have not anticipated, or
>conveniently handwave away. At Tech 12, limited STM-style nano-manipulators
>can assemble nano-electronic devices, amazing materials, etc., but they can
>only do so in ultra-high-vacuum conditions and at very low temperatures
>(50-100 degrees K, perhaps). Other technical hurdles include unforseen
>difficulties in programming assembler arrays; the notion of "evolved design
>and manufacturing software" trumpeted by Drexler never quite panned out in
>this future history.

An attempt to kill two birds with one relativistic rock:

What if Traveller computers are so large due to the fact that they have to
be kept super-cooled for the nanobots inside them?  Figure to make a jump,
the computer has to juggle two sets of equations involving 36-dimensional
physics, the current state of the ship, and the price of tea on Vland for
all I know!  One could also say that since exposure to j-space has driven
people mad, there is an effect on the brain's delicate electrical field;
from here, it is a short jump to say that such effects are devastating on
ship's computers, and they must be shielded in some way, or risk computer
failure.

Just some thoughts pounded out while I sit here, I really don't know how
feasible this all is.




+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
| "This ranks very high on the weird meter." |
|                  -Quinn Mallory, "Sliders" |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:54:39 -0700
Subject: Space babes!!!

Rich Ostorero stormhvn@inreach.com said:

>That's one I agree with wholeheartedly, too. With a universe of adventure
>waiting for us 
>in Milleu 0, who needs gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits?

Umm.. my wife and I would like a few..... do you deliver?

Doug and Kirsten (who was so disappointed when she learned what
"hot-bunking" really meant..)



+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|            !!!CANCER SURVIVOR!!!           |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
|********************************************|
| "This ranks very high on the weird meter." |
|                  -Quinn Mallory, "Sliders" |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:14:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Trent Smith wrote:

> skill.  This method tends to discourage players from coming up with
> characters too different from their own personality types (if Johnny the
> Player never initiates contact, it doesn't matter how Persuasive his
> character is; likewise if Jack the Character has a Fast Talk of 05% it 
> doesn't really matter how Persuasive his Player is) but I don't see this as
> being a problem-- all of my players come up with characters that are 
> compatible with their personality types anyway.

Really!  Wow.  So your group doesn't like playing roles that differ from 
their own personalities?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:25:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #470

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> Well, I think Joe has already hit on the point behind this.  The rule is
> probably something like, "Do what your gut tells you."  While this is great
> sounding, it doesn't really help.

You know I always try to be helpful. :P


> My own (admitedly limited) opinion on the subject is that when someone tries
> to use one of these skills, as in...
> 
> >Player:  I bribe the offical with 1000 Cr
> 
> You would first make sure that the player's background knowledge is what the
> character's would be.  For example, in the above bribery example, you might
> say...
> 
> Referee:  <character> would know that the minimum bribe is at least 2500 Cr
> for this type of action.  Now tell me what you would tell the official.

Just to provide a contrast example, I might roll here to determine 
whether the character knows what the bribe should be -- if the 
character's background doesn't indicate plainly that the character would 
(or would not) know this information.  (Note, I said "I might roll," not 
that I would ask the player to roll....I'd provide the info either way, 
but the truthfullness would depend on the roll:).

Geez, it gets even more complicated.  I typically roll dice randomly 
throughout the game, so players don't know when I'm making a "real" 
roll.  Sometimes I also roll and write down several 2D tosses before the 
game starts, then use them as needed.

And, again, as I originally said, sometimes I require a roll, and 
sometimes I don't!  

Sheesh!  Being a referee isn't a science, it's an art, and don't let 
anyone tell you differently. :)


[example deleted]
> Or something like that.  I think that you should be careful in penalizing
> poorer role players for a playing a weak role.  I think excellent role
> playing should be rewarded, and refusal to play a roll (ie, Player: Come on,
> man, just tell me what I gotta roll), should be punished, but player ability
> to "act" shouldn't change the outcome much.

Absolutely, positively correct!


> So, as a rule of thumb, I would say encourage your players to PLAY their
> ROLE and not ROLL their PLAY.

Nice rule of thumb.  Suitable for framing, even. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:30:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The Poor Steward

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> I have a slight problem.
> 
> What skill is it that a Steward actually uses to see if he is a good
> Steward.  I seem to recall a Service skill in one of the incarnations of
> Traveller, but I know it isn't in T4.  Yes, I know I could add a Service
> skill, but I don't want to do that if I don't have to.  Any other suggestions?

[takes on role of grizzled old-timer]  

Back in the old days...and I'm goin' way back here, now...back to the 
days when Traveller books were smaller (we couldn't afford bigger books 
back then - you young 'uns don't know how good you have it)...there 
actually was a Steward skill...'course, these days you young whipper 
snappers figger you don't need no Steward skill, but I'm here to tell ya, 
you do!  Why, I mind the time a character with nothing BUT Steward skill 
saved the day . . . 

[snaps out of it]

Uhmmm...looks like that one might have been left out.  Or maybe there was 
no such skill in Year 0.  Steward Skill is only possible at TL 14+. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 20:53:57 -0700
Subject: Re: T4 Tasks too easy? (was My T4 review)

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Liam McCauley wrote:
> 
> > I've been thinking that the chances "to hit" in the combat system seem too
> > high.
> >
<snip>
> 
> Is it realistic?  I really don't know.  But I like it this way. :)
> I think it's boring to have a combat consisting of more misses than
> hits.

Been there, done that! I was once in a combat under MegaTraveller where
most of the PCs actually ran out of ammo (really!) and they were average
military types. It's nice to hit something other than control panels and
fuel lines for once.

One thing I've noticed is that it appears to be tougher in T4 (IMHO) to
get multiple psionic disciplines. Could there possibly be subconscious
anti-Zho sentiments somewhere out there? :-)  Remember...PsiCorps is
your friend.

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:07:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

Ed Dowgiallo wrote:
> 
> Anyone aware of where I could dig up the plans for a naval base?
> Anybody's naval base?
> 
> Ed

It may sound silly but how about the U.S. Navy? Or, better yet, an Air
Force base? Just replace the docks/flightline with landing pads and use
building locations as is.  After all, most military bases have some kind
of family quarters (on the base or very near it), Bachelor Officers'
quarters, a commissary, theater, library, health care facility, and a
ton of warehouses for equipment, ordnance, etc.  Keep in mind that the
"public" buildings will be considerably smaller than civilian versions
because of the somewhat captive but much smaller population base.

Civies can't come on base without some kind of escort or ID from a
relative stationed at the base, and a pass issued by base security which
must be placed somewhere on their person or displayed prominently on
their vehicle.  (The previous is based on my personal experience at
various Air Force bases here in the U.S. and in Japan.)

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:18:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills

Pete Blake wrote:
> 
> When a situation comes up where certain skills would be useful, how much
> do you take into account the skill levels of the characters and how much
> does the player's role playing come into account?
<snip>
> Do you give bonuses on a skill check based
> on the player's role playing?  Do you set the level of difficulty of the
> task according to what the player says his character says and does?

IMHO, you right on the money. In campaigns I've ref'd I've always let
"role-playing" override "roll-playing"...for the most part. If players
try to rebuild a quantum computer from bailing wire and spit while
spouting off Einstein's General Relativity proofs, I let them *unless* 
the *character* doing this has an Int/Edu equal to that of an amoeba. 
At that point, it's obvious that "role-playing" has come to an end and
it's time to force some stat-based rolls.

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:31:09 -0700
Subject: Re: Subsector mapping programs

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> My stuff will be posted as a PC .zip file called travprog.zip.
> 
<snip> 
> The qbasic stuff will compile fine with QuickBasic 4.0, the qb.exe
> that shipped with MS-DOS 6.x is the same as QuickBasic 4.5 without
> the compile stuff.  I think I have a copy of QuickBasic around
> somewhere so I may be able to put an executable on line as well.
> 

Bless you! I can't tell you how many times I've read about some
wonderful piece of Traveller software just to find out it's for a Mac.

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:39:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Player vs Character Personalities

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:14:07 -0500 (CDT)
Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Trent Smith wrote:
>
>> skill.  This method tends to discourage players from coming up with
>> characters too different from their own personality types (if Johnny the
>> Player never initiates contact, it doesn't matter how Persuasive his
>> character is; likewise if Jack the Character has a Fast Talk of 05% it 
>> doesn't really matter how Persuasive his Player is) but I don't see this as
>> being a problem-- all of my players come up with characters that are 
>> compatible with their personality types anyway.
>
>Really!  Wow.  So your group doesn't like playing roles that differ from 
>their own personalities?
>                           
   Be careful of the wording!  I didn't say that my players didn't like to
play characters different from their own personalities, but rather that they
play characters COMPATIBLE with their own personalities.  Since people seem
to be tossing out pithy sayings here, I'll add one-- my group is more 
interested in rolePLAYING than we are in ROLEplaying; in other words, we
get more enjoyment out of interaction, problem-solving, story-telling and
such than we do out of chewing scenery or challenging our acting abilites.
   As an example of what I'm talking about, while specific goals, abilities,
and quirks will change from character to character, it's pretty much a given
in my group that the outgoing boisterous guy will usually have an outgoing
boisterous character, the sarcastic and cynical guy will usually have a 
sarcastic and cynical character, and so on.  Perhaps this is an artifact of
our group remaining basically unchanged since we were all in Jr-High 
together playing AD&D, but it suits us very well and adds to our communal
enjoyment of the game (plus it makes it more poignant when a player will
transcend himself and do something non-idiomatically heroic).

Trent Smith
P.S.  I've come to terms with the fact that I myself am a terrible
roleplayer, almost always tending to paraphrase and summarize rather than
speak in-character, and so forth; which is why I both tend to GM (which may
seem like a contradiction, but it's easier for me to do a dozen shallow
"impersonations" than a single in-depth one) and also don't demand a lot of
sophisticated role-assumption from my players.


------------------------------

From: Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:43:47 -0400
Subject: Re: The Poor Steward

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> > I have a slight problem.
> >
> > What skill is it that a Steward actually uses to see if he is a good
> > Steward.  I seem to recall a Service skill in one of the incarnations of
> > Traveller, but I know it isn't in T4.  Yes, I know I could add a Service
> > skill, but I don't want to do that if I don't have to.  Any other suggestions?
 You might Want to Look at the Steward as a whole package. What skills
dose He have which ones would He use in his job and at what level are
they.  His stats give You insights too how smart is He. Is his endurance
high so he has the ability to work those extra hours. How many terms of
service did He spend in His Field. What are the parts that make the
Whole.
                                                                     
Good Luck
								       Charlie

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 01 Oct 96 13:08:26 +1000
Subject: What We Need (longish, ranting)

     I get the feeling that most copies of T4 are going to die-hard 
     Traveller fans, and not to new players. Hell, if I weren't a member of 
     *this* list I wouldn't have known anything about it myself. 
     
     The games market is no longer like it was in the 70s or early 80s; 
     there are so many competing RPGs and other games (eg GW crap, not to 
     mention CCGs and computer games) that a new product needs a pretty big 
     marketing campaign to make any impact at all. Your average new gamer, 
     possibly mid-teens or junior university student (my assertion, anybody 
     done a market survey?) is looking for cinematic type action with 
     *guns* or at least strong storyline!  
     
     What is in our favour? Well, hard-SF games with a consistent, 
     extensive background are very rare. T4 has a good chance in this 
     niche. Leaving aside some of the Cyberpunk-type offerings, most are 
     either hard-SF, low background, or soft-SF/semifantasy with extensive 
     but inconsistent background. 
     
     What does Imperium Games need to do? I suggest *at least* two 
     promotional posters: one large glossy poster with your great Foss 
     artwork (I mean, *new* Foss artwork) and little content, to catch the 
     eye, one to each games shop, declaring that T4 is *here* and it is 
     *good*; and another (small glossy A3 poster or 4-page A4 leaflet, a 
     couple of dozen to each games shop) that outlines the product and 
     future releases. 
     
     I realise that this is going to cost, but good marketing *makes* money 
     even without substance. Just look at that crappy Independence Day 
     (ptooey!). I'm sure ID4 games will be flooding the market around now. 
     
     What I *don't* want to see is T4 sinking without a trace, which it is 
     in danger of doing if we can't find new blood. Us remnants from the 
     Black Book era are married, dropping kids, getting into careers (well, 
     some of us) and generally well into the stage where so many other 
     demands crowd out gaming time. We are a handy nostalgia based fringe, 
     but *not* the main game! 
     
     An well marketed and errata-free (OK, errata-reduced) second printing 
     of T4, together with the Milieu Zero sourcebook and at a slightly more 
     reasonable price (teenagers/students don't have high disposable 
     income, guys!) is precisely *what we need* to reestablish Traveller in 
     the industry. 
     
     <attempting atmospheric reentry, ablative shield failing...>
     

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 19:45:04 -0500
Subject: Re: The Poor Steward

On 09/30/96 at 02:52 PM,  Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> said:

>What skill is it that a Steward actually uses to see if he is a good
>Steward.  I seem to recall a Service skill in one of the incarnations of
>Traveller, but I know it isn't in T4.  Yes, I know I could add a Service
>skill, but I don't want to do that if I don't have to.  Any other
>suggestions?

Add a Steward or Service skill. You have to! <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 18:57:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills

On 09/30/96 at 04:53 PM,  Pete Blake <peteb@digicon-egr.co.uk> said:

>How do you play out the use of these skills in your games?  I can see
>situations which range from completely no roleplaying;

>Player:  I bribe the offical with 1000 Cr
>Ref:     Make a difficult check against bribery.
>Player:  Made it!
>Ref:     He takes your bribe and ...

Yuck!  I've been *in* games like that..didn't like 'em.  In games that I GM
I insist on the players putting some though and effort into playing their
characters.

>right through to no real use of the character's skills and total reliance
>on the player's verbal skills.

..well not *quite* that far.  I'm not a diceless GM..I swear! <g>

>Where do you draw the line?  Do you give bonuses on a skill check based on
>the player's role playing?  Do you set the level of difficulty of the task
>according to what the player says his character says and does?

Tere are 3 kinds of skills/knowledges and how I handle them: 

1.  Interpersonal skills (bribery/carousing/negotiation)

    I insist on roleplaying here!  If you want to bribe the guard, or get
info out of the bartender, then you have to play it out. Convince me!  I'll
use the skill level to make up for any
shortcomings I see.  If I don't think you are pulling it off, I *might*
make you roll, I'll probably roll myself for the NPC's reaction. 
Regardless, it's the EFFORT the player puts into the task that I'm looking
for.  Notice I said effort!  A shy or socially unskilled person might not
"smooze" the guard/bartender too well, but I make allowances for them. 
Mostly diceless.  Dice used to try to *save* a failing attempt more than
anything else.
    
2.  Technical skills (lockpick/intrusion/pilot/astrogation)

    I like a *little* roleplaying for this, but don't insist on it. Tell me
what you are trying to do and what skill you are using and we'll roll it
out.  The roleplaying adds flavor and provides a chance for the player to
apply some THOUGHT to the attempt.  Here's what I mean.."I'm going to try
open the door with my intrusion skill, but I'm going slow because I *think*
there might be an alarm and I want to be careful."..so the character gets
some (GM decided, and usually secret) additional DM on the task, but might
have some kind of (secret) time penalty applied.  Mostly diced, but player
thoughtfullness and creativity is rewarded.

3.  Creative skills (tactics/invention)

    Cooperation is the name of the game here.  I have the players involved
talk it over and describe what they want to do and how they want to do it. 
If they come up with a good plan, wonderful, and if they don't then their
skill affords them a varying level of 'help' from the GM.  Mostly diceless,
but I often do rolling during
implementation to see how well things go.
    
Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 20:02:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Modelling Advice Needed

On 09/30/96 at 03:41 PM,  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
said:

>I'm trying to construct models of the nasties, not just paint existing
>models.  (Good advice for painting, mind you - sounds like what I do now.) 
>I figure there's no point in trying to model an ant in 25mm scale, so I'm
>trying to figure out how to model a swarm of ants.  The same thing with
>flies/wasps/etc.

Flying swarms, flies and wasps, could be a small loose wad of nylon or
cotton batting.  Sprinkles would do for ants.  You could use rasins for
small animals like rats and mice...and have a nice snack when you're done.
<g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #472
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 1 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 473

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: The Poor Steward
         2. Re: Player vs Character Personalities
         3. Re: What We Need (longish, ranting)
         4. Re: Further responses...
         5. T$ Hardback in Tucson
         6. Roll them Bones!
         7. Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed
         8. Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed
         9. Re: Homebrew T4 Attack DM Reference
        10. Re: Rolling vs Role-Playing
        11. Re: The Poor Steward
        12. T4 Hardback hits Cincinnati!
        13. RE:Big Computers and Little Machines
        14. Re: Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL
        15. What you have to remember about "T4 Tasks too easy"
        16. Re: The Poor Steward

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:46:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The Poor Steward

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Charlie wrote:

> > On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
> > 
> > > I have a slight problem.
> > >
> > > What skill is it that a Steward actually uses to see if he is a good
> > > Steward.  I seem to recall a Service skill in one of the incarnations of
> > > Traveller, but I know it isn't in T4.  Yes, I know I could add a Service
> > > skill, but I don't want to do that if I don't have to.  Any other suggestions?
>  You might Want to Look at the Steward as a whole package. What skills
> dose He have which ones would He use in his job and at what level are
> they.  His stats give You insights too how smart is He. Is his endurance
> high so he has the ability to work those extra hours. How many terms of
> service did He spend in His Field. What are the parts that make the
> Whole.

I was just in IRC with Suz Dollar, and she came up with the idea of simply 
using relevant skills, which is pretty much what you're saying, above.  
Things like perception, carausing, etc.  Make Steward a collection of 
skills and characteristics, rather than a single skill.  Anyone can be a 
Steward - their success at the task will depend on how many relevant 
skills/characteristics (and at what level) they can bring to the task...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:50:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Player vs Character Personalities

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Trent Smith wrote:

>    Be careful of the wording!  I didn't say that my players didn't like to
> play characters different from their own personalities, but rather that they
> play characters COMPATIBLE with their own personalities.  Since people seem
> to be tossing out pithy sayings here, I'll add one-- my group is more 
> interested in rolePLAYING than we are in ROLEplaying; in other words, we
> get more enjoyment out of interaction, problem-solving, story-telling and
> such than we do out of chewing scenery or challenging our acting abilites.

Sorry about that!  I stand corrected.


>    As an example of what I'm talking about, while specific goals, abilities,
> and quirks will change from character to character, it's pretty much a given
> in my group that the outgoing boisterous guy will usually have an outgoing
> boisterous character, the sarcastic and cynical guy will usually have a 
> sarcastic and cynical character, and so on.  Perhaps this is an artifact of
> our group remaining basically unchanged since we were all in Jr-High 
> together playing AD&D, but it suits us very well and adds to our communal
> enjoyment of the game (plus it makes it more poignant when a player will
> transcend himself and do something non-idiomatically heroic).

To add another pithy statement[G], all that matters is that you have fun. :)

My group tended toward characters with personalities compatable with 
those of the players...but we also enjoyed playing other character 
types.  But that's just us.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:06:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: What We Need (longish, ranting)

On 1 Oct 1996 Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:

>      I get the feeling that most copies of T4 are going to die-hard 
>      Traveller fans, and not to new players. Hell, if I weren't a member of 
>      *this* list I wouldn't have known anything about it myself. 

I I weren't a member of this list, I wouldn't have known about it until the 
last issue of Shadis came out, with the review of Traveller....and even 
then I might not know, since the review is small and T4 isn't mentioned 
anywhere else in the mag (i.e., I might have missed it if I didn't 
already know the review would be in there).


>      The games market is no longer like it was in the 70s or early 80s; 
>      there are so many competing RPGs and other games (eg GW crap, not to 
>      mention CCGs and computer games) that a new product needs a pretty big 
>      marketing campaign to make any impact at all. Your average new gamer, 
>      possibly mid-teens or junior university student (my assertion, anybody 
>      done a market survey?) is looking for cinematic type action with 
>      *guns* or at least strong storyline!  

Probably true. Still, I'm glad T4 doesn't fit that classification.


>      What is in our favour? Well, hard-SF games with a consistent, 
>      extensive background are very rare. T4 has a good chance in this 
>      niche. Leaving aside some of the Cyberpunk-type offerings, most are 
>      either hard-SF, low background, or soft-SF/semifantasy with extensive 
>      but inconsistent background. 

True...


>      What does Imperium Games need to do? I suggest *at least* two 
>      promotional posters: one large glossy poster with your great Foss 
>      artwork (I mean, *new* Foss artwork) and little content, to catch the 
>      eye, one to each games shop, declaring that T4 is *here* and it is 
>      *good*; and another (small glossy A3 poster or 4-page A4 leaflet, a 
>      couple of dozen to each games shop) that outlines the product and 
>      future releases. 

I strongly agree with this approach.  The poster will catch their eye, 
and the leaflet will give them something to bring home to think about.  I 
asked MM about such an approach during the seminar at Gen-Con, but he was 
rather non-commital.

One saving grace, even without the posters, etc., could be that IG may 
get a lot of shelf space by second quarter 1997, with 1 book per month 
(two in December), assuming they stick to the schedule.  By then, T4 will 
still be relatively new (and I think there are enough of us to support it 
that far) but will have about a dozen books on the shelves....IF the 
games stores stock the books, of course.


>      I realise that this is going to cost, but good marketing *makes* money 
>      even without substance. Just look at that crappy Independence Day 
>      (ptooey!). I'm sure ID4 games will be flooding the market around now. 

Right. 


>      What I *don't* want to see is T4 sinking without a trace, which it is 
>      in danger of doing if we can't find new blood. Us remnants from the 
>      Black Book era are married, dropping kids, getting into careers (well, 
>      some of us) and generally well into the stage where so many other 
>      demands crowd out gaming time. We are a handy nostalgia based fringe, 
>      but *not* the main game! 

Sadly, true.


>      An well marketed and errata-free (OK, errata-reduced) second printing 
>      of T4, together with the Milieu Zero sourcebook and at a slightly more 
>      reasonable price (teenagers/students don't have high disposable 
>      income, guys!) is precisely *what we need* to reestablish Traveller in 
>      the industry. 

Perhaps (shudder) a single book comprising both, at a $30 price?  I am 
one of the ones who urged IG to keep the background separate from the 
rules as much as possible, but....well, in this case, given the 
disposable income of the target market T4 must have in order to thrive...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 00:28:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Further responses...

<...cut>
>  Chaosium/AH's "Glorantha" material (nee RuneQuest):  Recent materials have
>become much more honest and up-front about sex-roles, sex-related rituals,
>and sex-related behaviors which is fully fitting with the (newfound?)
>focus on Bronze Age-equivalent cultures, mythologies, and communities. 
>Since everything remains very serious and academic, there's very little
>prurience or exploitation.  These people take themeselves VERY seriously!
>
IMHO, Chaosium/TAHGC does the best job of presenting cultural stuff in what
I guess you could call the *anthropological* manner - you know - like the
case studies you had to read in Anthro 101.  The data's all there for you to
set up and run a game, but it's as a documentary, not a novel... - Bill

------------------------------

From: scharlto@rtd.com (Steve Charlton)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:13:13 -0700 (MST)
Subject: T$ Hardback in Tucson

My Hardbacks arrived Saturday(hurrah!).  Unfortunately, the US Postal 
service was kind enough to test out a ball-peen hammer on one the copies, so 
I will have to return that one.  As I was preparing the envelope for the 
return, I noticed that the stamp on mine was the $3.00 US Space Shuttle 
stamp.  I don't know if they did that on all of them, but I appreciated the 
small irony of the stamp selection (intentional or otherwise).

And to think, if things had gone as planned once upon a time, I could have 
gotten a stamp commemorating the 10th anniversary of the Lunar Habitat, or 
even one celebrating a manned Mars Mission in 2000.

Ah, well.....

Steven T. Charlton
I don't recall installing this 
"General Protection Fault" Screen Saver
scharlto@avalon.com (work)  scharlto@rtd.com (home)


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 23:03:12 -0500
Subject: Roll them Bones!

On 09/30/96 at 07:25 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> said:

>Geez, it gets even more complicated.  I typically roll dice randomly 
>throughout the game, so players don't know when I'm making a "real"  roll. 
>Sometimes I also roll and write down several 2D tosses before the  game
>starts, then use them as needed.

Hey!  You do that too?  <g> Not only do I randomly roll dice, I'll also
check my notes, for no reason other than to keep the players paranoid..

<clatter, clatter>

"Six...hum...", says the GM flipping back 3 pages in his notebook.

"So, what happened?", asks the anxious player.

"Oh...well!", double checking his notes and then smiling brightly,
"Nothing.  Nothing..that you can tell."

You have to actually spring things on them occasionally, but once burned
they become *very* shy.  <g> 

Keep in mind I also will throw in little "red herrings" from some of these
rolls too.  I generally throw a handful of dice, but I'll have a couple of
dice that I look for (a couple of reds in a handful of whites, or the old
off white and the small red, or the two that land furtherest left)..decided
on the spot, and if I get snake-eyes something might have happened.

At that point I'll make something up to fit what's going on...

The PCs were sneaking through a mansion looking for a kidnapped boy, "You
hear a muffled crash from behind that door.", (it was a cat).

Joe, a PC, always kept the radio on while in Jump Space, he said the white
noise was soothing. Then one day while a couple of PC's were on the
bridge..."Through the static on the radio you pick up a signal for a few
seconds and then it's gone."  (had them franticly trying to reacquire that
impossible signal, they never did..I played that one dead serious.  They
argued that it was impossible, I shruged my shoulders and said *you* heard
it, make of it what you will.  They eventually gave up trying to find the
signal and accused me of a setup, I said "Can't say.", and knowing how
devious a GM I am they were left with a shadow of a doubt..exactly what I
wanted.  This one also made an interesting bar story at their next
port..got Joe several free beers out of it...and this bunch *always* leaves
the radio on while in Jump Space now. <g>).

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:44:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed

At 11:41 AM -0400 9/30/96, Rob Prior wrote:
>>Try painting the critters in your desired base color...
>
>Guess I wasn't clear enough.
>
>I'm trying to construct models of the nasties, not just paint existing
>models.  (Good advice for painting, mind you - sounds like what I do now.)  I
>figure there's no point in trying to model an ant in 25mm scale, so I'm
>trying to figure out how to model a swarm of ants.  The same thing with
>flies/wasps/etc.
>
>I think I can do ants with coloured powders sprinkled on a grass surface, but
>I'm not certain how to do slightly larger critters - say mouse-sized.

How about taking one of the flat bases and put individual drops of elmers
glue on it?  Maybe use a pin to get small droplets from a big drop squeezed
onto a piece of paper?


Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

A friend is someone you can call to help you move.  A best friend is
someone you can call to help you move a body.



------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 00:56:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed

<...cut>

Boy did I miss the boat about what you were trying to do!

>You could try using sculpy or fimo clays (bake to harden) and roll
>out little rat shapes.  A big rat (I'm looking at one right now next
>to my desk---actually 4, but only the male is *big*) is maybe 6-8
>inches long plus the tail, so call it maybe 2mm long (body).  Making
>little rats like that wouldn't take too long.

Good idea.  Also, try a novelty/party supply store - you can buy bags of
ants (ok; in 25mm they'd be BIG ants...) and other crawlers.

>You can get the clays in a ton of colors at an art supply store.
>Epoxy putties would work as well, and are usually gray.

Fimo and Sculpey are MUCH less expensive than epoxy, don't require mixing
(yellow + blue) have a nicer aroma, and the only downside I can think of is
that many (but not all) require low baking (200 deg. or so) to harden...

- - Bill

PS - Merrick - these BIG rats - they weren't by chance coworkers???


------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 00:35:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Homebrew T4 Attack DM Reference

Hi folks,

A feature of The Traveller Book which I always found helpful, but=
 which I
was disappointed to see left out of T4, was the handy one-page listing=
 of
all the applicable attack DMs. (I've not read MT nor TNE, so I don't=
 know
if they had them). Without a reference such as this, you may forget=
 to use
all the applicable DMs.

So here's my reference sheet. Of the Special Pools, I have only included
=46atigue. (I didn't like the way the rest had been implemented.)=
 Add 'em if
you use 'em.

I've also thrown together a handy Movement/Action Options list for=
 the
players to use, which is included at the bottom. Always good to know=
 what
your options are.

If I've left out anything, let me know.

Glenn

PS: If you haven't yet checked out the Armor Table that James Garriss=
 and I
together, I do recommend it: <http://cs.odu.edu/~garriss/t4/armor.htm>.=
 All
the Armor ratings by weapon type and armor type, for all T4 and CT=
 armors,
arranged for convenient use in combat. Includes armor coatings. Feedback=
 to
Jim at <jpg@langley.mitre.org>.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ATTACK DMs: Quick Reference Sheet:

Hand-to-Hand Attack DMs:

Stationary Target:  DM+3 to hit.
Prone Target: DM+3 to hit.
Armed Attack vs. Armed Defender: defender's weapon skill =3D negative=
 DM.
Target Using Pure Defense: opposed task rolls.
Thrown Attack vs Pure Defense: opposed task rolls: Dex + applicable=
 skill +
roll, highest wins.

Ranged Attack DMs:

Prone Target: (Range Number x 2) =3D negative DM to hit.
Evading Target: Range Number =3D negative DM to hit.
Snapfire: weapon's range DM not used.
Aimed Fire: weapon's range DM is used.
Autofire: Primary target: weapon's range DM;
   Adjacent targets: double weapon's range DMs.
Suppression Fire: double weapon's range DM.
Indirect Fire vs known target completely Covered: Difficult task=
 (3D).
=46iring into Hand-to-Hand Combat: DM-3, if miss: roll to hit random=
 adjacent
figure.
Total Darkness/Night: DM-9 beyond short range.
Partial Darkness: DM-9 beyond medium range.
Target Firing from behind cover: DM-4.
Target Concealed: DM-4.
Target Firing from concealment: DM-1.

All Attacks:

Small Targets: basketball-sized or smaller: DM-3.
Large Targets: ground car or larger: DM+3.
Armor/Effective Dex. & End. Penalties: See Armor table.
Multiple Actions: Dex =F7 # of actions (round down) + skill DM.
Called Shots:=20
   Increased damage attack (shots to vitals): DM-5 for double damage;=
 DM-9
for triple damage.
   Decreased damage attack: DM-3 for half damage; DM-6 for minimum=
 damage,
does 1 pt./die.
   Attack to Disarm: DM-6, otherwise normal.
Tactical Aid:  DM+1 for each Tactics skill point used.
=46atigue: If Fatigue =3D End.: DM-1. Fatigue =3D 2xEnd,  DM-2, etc.
Encumbrance: Double Load: -1 to effective Str., Dex,. End.
Encumbrance: Triple Load: -2 to effective Str., Dex., End.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
MOVEMENT/ACTION OPTIONS
[Movement and Actions are not necessarily limited to these categories]

Typical Movement Status Options:

        Walk
        Run
        Crawl
        Stationary
        Standing Leap/Broad Jump
        Running Broad Jump

Typical Action Status Options:

        Go Prone
        Stand Up
        Evade (while moving)
        Strike (Hand to Hand)
        Hold Actions
        Draw
        Reload
        Multiple Actions

Typical Hand to Hand Attack Options:

        Unarmed Strike
        Grapple
        Wrestle
        Tackle
        Armed Defense
        Pure Defense
        Attack to Stun

Typical Ranged Attack Options:

        Snapfire
        Aimed Fire
        Autofire
        Suppression Fire
        Bow Attack
        Throw
        Indirect Fire
        Called Shot for Increased Damage
        Called Shot for Decreased Damage
        Attack to Disarm
 =20



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 00:02:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Rolling vs Role-Playing

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:25:00 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #470
>
>On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
>
>> So, as a rule of thumb, I would say encourage your players to PLAY their
>> ROLE and not ROLL their PLAY.
>
>Nice rule of thumb.  Suitable for framing, even. :)

Yeah, and like all great ideas, it was an accident.  I meant to type
something else, but once I got to the 'PLAY their' part, I forgot what I was
originally gonna say(Real World called) and when I got back to writing, I
came up with that rule of thumb. :)


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 00:02:22 -0500
Subject: Re: The Poor Steward

Wow, I finally posted something that got a response! :)  I'm so exxcited!

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:30:11 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Re: The Poor Steward
>
>On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
>
>> I have a slight problem.
>> 
>> What skill is it that a Steward actually uses to see if he is a good
>> Steward.  I seem to recall a Service skill in one of the incarnations of
>> Traveller, but I know it isn't in T4.  Yes, I know I could add a Service
>> skill, but I don't want to do that if I don't have to.  Any other
suggestions?
>
>[takes on role of grizzled old-timer]  
>
>Back in the old days...and I'm goin' way back here, now...back to the 
>days when Traveller books were smaller (we couldn't afford bigger books 
>back then - you young 'uns don't know how good you have it)

This was too much Joe.  I was ROTFL!!!  It took me a few minutes to wipe the
tears from my eyes to finish reading what you wrote!

>...there 
>actually was a Steward skill...'course, these days you young whipper 
>snappers figger you don't need no Steward skill, but I'm here to tell ya, 
>you do!  Why, I mind the time a character with nothing BUT Steward skill 
>saved the day . . . 
>
>[snaps out of it]
>
>Uhmmm...looks like that one might have been left out.  Or maybe there was 
>no such skill in Year 0.  Steward Skill is only possible at TL 14+. :)

This is what I orgiginally thought, but it would be nice to have some expert
advice, Marc are ya out there?

*       *       *       *       *       *       *
>From: Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net>
>Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:43:47 -0400
>Subject: Re: The Poor Steward
>
> You might Want to Look at the Steward as a whole package. What skills
>dose He have which ones would He use in his job and at what level are
>they.  His stats give You insights too how smart is He. Is his endurance
>high so he has the ability to work those extra hours. How many terms of
>service did He spend in His Field. What are the parts that make the
>Whole.

Well, this is what I'm doing now.  The steward is a combination or his
Perception, Carousing, and Leadership skills, as well as his Endurance and
Intelligence.  I was wondering what skills others think might be necessary,
or adventageous for a steward?

*       *       *       *       *       *       *
>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 19:45:04 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Poor Steward
>
>>Traveller, but I know it isn't in T4.  Yes, I know I could add a Service
>>skill, but I don't want to do that if I don't have to.  Any other
>>suggestions?
>
>Add a Steward or Service skill. You have to! <g>
>
Aw, you're just mad cause you got busted!  I can't help it if the best thing
I could think of to replace the Steward Skill was Perception and Carousing. :)

Seriously though, I have thought that adding it to the Charisma Cascade
would be an acceptable method, but I do think if you roll for skills it will
leave Steward with a bit fewer entries than perhaps it should have.


Any other ideas?


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: spritch@cinternet.net (Steven Pritchard)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 01:21:22 -0400
Subject: T4 Hardback hits Cincinnati!

Just to keep up with marking the advance of the snailmail wave, I received
my hardback copy this evening.  Just a brief review...love the layout, love
the info, like the Elmore artwork, but have to raise an eyebrow at the Foss
artwork.  I like Chris Foss' stuff, but I'm from the old school of CT (the
Keith ships will always be my faves).  Otherwise, methinks we've got a
winner on our hands!

spritch@cinternet.net
http://www.cinternet.net/~mpritch



------------------------------

From: bjm@dsc.com (Brian Makens)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 23:42:23 -0700
Subject: RE:Big Computers and Little Machines

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said
>What if Traveller computers are so large due to the fact that they have to
>be kept super-cooled for the nanobots inside them?  Figure to make a jump,
>the computer has to juggle two sets of equations involving 36-dimensional
>physics, the current state of the ship, and the price of tea on Vland for
>all I know! 

Gee, I am beginning to understand why it took so long for
the Solomani to achieve jump drive and reach for the stars. I
thought the problem was incomplete knowledge of  Einsteinian Physics
and the Universal Thereom compounded by a long period before
reaching out of the gravity well...but the price of tea on vland?

Early Solomani Jump Drive Researcher:
"Lets see, theory of relativity..check, universal theorem..check,
jump drive theory ..check, lithium..check, zuccahai zuchini whatever 
crystals...check, 36 dimensional physics...check...price of tea on
Vland...WHAT....OH no...What and Where is Vland, What inhabits Vland,
What monetary system do they use..How did they get tea, a terran 
substance..Were they the UFO's that came here. Did they bring
only a little tea back and make a killing, or did they bring so
much back its a glut on the market...does it taste terrible to
them, great, deadly poison, most addictive drug.., utterly boring...
how did they come here to get the tea, if they need tea on vland
to do jump drive..generation ships....oooh my head hurts...we're
never going to solve this problem...."

I used to think this major/minor race thing was just specieist
bigotry..But now, I see it really does separate the Adult
Gentle Sophonts from the Immature Reproductive Spawnings as
far as species go...  By the stars, the sophonts that solved
this problem, they were the Greats!....


Brian Makens
A Loyal Subject of the Iridium Throne



------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 21:31:05 +0200
Subject: Re: Re: T4 Hardbacks Arrive in Libertyville, IL

On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
> > But I mailed in a credit card order for JTAS in early July, and nothing has
> > shown up on my bill yet.  Either IG has lost my order, or the US Postal
> > System has.  Has the same thing happened to anyone else?
> It's against the law to charge your credit card if the item isn't
> delivered in under 30 days. So the ethical mail order outfits don't
> submit the charge until they ship the item.

Well, my card also was charged around the beginning of July if I remember 
correctly and I still haven't received anything (which is definitely not 
a complaint, now that things are moving -- I'm looking forward to get my 
signed hardcover soon :-)

Greetings from Germany,

			Thomas Biskup.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 1 Oct 96  9:46:28 EDT
Subject: What you have to remember about "T4 Tasks too easy"

Yo,
  I experienced much the same thing at EuroGenCon. I took a straight
MT scenario, didn't change the skills or stats, and tried running it
with the same (linguistic) skill difficulties. They could hardly fail anything.
Now, this happened to work well for the scenario, and it could be made
to work in a wider setting, however, you have to remember one thing:
  THE NPCs HAVE THE SAME BENEFIT.
  To frequently, the player's run rife with a system like this because the
NPCs don't take the initiative. If you are running with a high-success system
like this you have to remember to be a little more proactive with your
NPCs. Bribe that guard, Hack the computer security, pull down those
crates as you make your dramatic exit. The PCs may be delighted with
how easily they can achieve success, but you have to make sure they
howl in frustration as the NPCs do as well...
          Jo

------------------------------

From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 10:51:40 -0700
Subject: Re: The Poor Steward

Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> I have a slight problem.
> 
> What skill is it that a Steward actually uses to see if he is a good
> Steward.  I seem to recall a Service skill in one of the incarnations of
> Traveller, but I know it isn't in T4.  Yes, I know I could add a Service
> skill, but I don't want to do that if I don't have to.  Any other suggestions?

Yep, I have one. Try Megatraveller handbook. I know, it's out of date 
now, but I just started "travelling" and in Austria there isn't much 
stuff to get (-> Amber Zone).
Anyway, in MT there is a Steward-Skill. You can achieve it through nearly 
all careers, as it is part of the Interpersonal Cascade-Skill.

Description as on S.39 in MT-Players Manual:
The individual is experienced and capable in the care and feeding of 
passengers.
Steward Skill represents a general knowledge of cooking, personal care 
and attention, and other areas of experience which will make passengers 
and crew happy and content with their conditions of passage.

I hope this helps.
Cya.
Buddy
- -- 
# Disclaimer: All opinions stated are only MY OWN.
# Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at 
# ADV - Anwendungsentwicklung
# Graphisch Technischer Bereich

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #473
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 1 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 474

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: What We Need
         2. Add ons for t4
         3. Re: T4 Tasks too easy? (was My T4 review)
         4. Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed
         5. Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues
         6. Re: Great Reading!!!
         7. The Archaean Thesis (longish)
         8. Naval Bases
         9. Hardback in South Jersey
        10. Re: Deck Plans: What Next?
        11. Re: The Poor Steward
        12. Starship questions, somebody help newbie in distress!
        13. Vilani Nobility
        14. Re: Add ons for t4
        15. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #470

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 1 Oct 96  9:58:52 EDT
Subject: Re: What We Need

>I get the feeling that most copies of T4 are going to die-hard 
>Traveller fans, and not to new players.
  I think this is inarguable. Firstly, I've had it said to me that the
Traveller Mailing List comprises 5% of the market for T4. That is
a titanic percentage. It doesn't mean there are loads of us, just
that there are not many others.
  Secondly here is an exercise for you to preform. Pick up almost any
RPG supplement or rule book you have lying around. Pick up T4.
Now turn them over and look at the back cover (we did this last night).
Your generic RPG supplement's back is probably crammed with text
in and around bits of artwork detailing what this is, what it contains, and
some things to get you excited about why you should buy it. What's on
the back of T4? Some nice artwork. THAT'S IT.
  This product is quite clearly aimed at people who already know what
they are buying.

  Having established that, though, I'm not necessarily saying it is a bad thing.
If you look at it a bit deeper you might conclude that it is the _only_ thing.
Many of your suggestions, Michael, about "What We Need" are prefectly
good and correct. However, they all require one thing: money.
  Can you imagine the difficulty Imperium Games must have had in raising
the venture capitol for this? The games industry is in a state of decline.
The previous publishers of this work couldn't sell enough and went out of
business. I wouldn't have touched it!
  If this is an accurate reading then it isn't surprising that their first 
actions are to
get out something with minimal cost that they know will sell a fixed number.
This bootstraps their cash-flow and gives enough to fund other projects.
I'd say their first year's worth of projects will be in this line. At the end 
of it
they will have either made enough "legacy" money or else impressed their
investors enough to begin to do riskier things like advertising. (Seriously,
have you seen a single T4 ad? Reviews, yes. Ads, no. Ads cost money.)

  But my analysis could be wrong...
                Jo

------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 19:31:34 +1000
Subject: Add ons for t4

  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

- --315294100-802137573-844162294:#8545
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


I wanted to add this stuff in , as my campaign needs it. 

Any feedback would be apreciated.


>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 

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dWJzdGl0dXRlZCBmb3IgdGhpcyBza2lsbCBhdCAtMURNLg0KDQo=
- --315294100-802137573-844162294:#8545--

------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:47:13 +0100
Subject: Re: T4 Tasks too easy? (was My T4 review)

     David Joseph Smart wrote:
     >Joe Walsh wrote:
     >> 
     >> On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Liam McCauley wrote:
     >> 
     >> > I've been thinking that the chances "to hit" in the combat system 
     >> > seem too
     >> > high.
     >> >
     ><snip>
     >> 
     >> Is it realistic?  I really don't know.  But I like it this way. :)
     >> I think it's boring to have a combat consisting of more misses than
     >> hits.
     
     > Been there, done that! I was once in a combat under MegaTraveller 
     > where most of the PCs actually ran out of ammo (really!) and they 
     > were average military types. It's nice to hit something other than 
     > control panels and fuel lines for once.
     
     
     Yeah, but I thought Traveller was meant to be a *hard* science fiction 
     game.  I assume that means that results should seem to be realistic.  
     I like the fact that the T4 task system is very simple to use, even 
     though that means that every nuance of every situation isn't modelled; 
     this give me more time to role-play (emphasis equally on the "role" 
     and "play").  I would like the system more if the results came out a 
     bit more realistically.
     
     Ayway, it's not really a problem.  I have my "work-around" of 
     increasing to-hit difficulties by 1 level (that's another thing I like 
     about the task system - I can tweak it to suit my tastes in a second 
     :-)).  I'm still interested in other people's thoughts, though.
     
     Proot!
     Liam
     
     -- 
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:40:36 PST
Subject: Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed

In mail you write:

> I think I can do ants with coloured powders sprinkled on a grass surface, but
> I'm not certain how to do slightly larger critters - say mouse-sized.

For mice, look for small egg-shaped (ie oval, but much more rounded at
one end) *seeds*. I'd try some sort of thread for tails. 

For rats, larger seeds or maybe small beads.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:46:51 PST
Subject: Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues

In mail you write:

>> Sexist, pornographic, art-for-art's sake garbage? ;)
>> 
>> Bravo to Marc Miller for for Goal # 5 !!! <applause>   :-)>
>
> That's one I agree with wholeheartedly, too. With a universe of
> adventure waiting for us in Milleu 0, who needs gratituous babes in
> skintight spacesuits?

Read the Retief stories by Keith Laumer sometime. Lots of "sexy babes"
only they are almost always what the aliens Retief is dealing with
consider to be "sexy babes" ("Wow, get a load of the eyestalks on that
one, eh?")

The result is *funny* and not at all offensive. BTW, the back of one of
the old books (either 76 patrons, or the one full of NPCs) *has* Retief
in it, as an un-named diplomat (one of 6 or a dozen characters that
they stated were drawn from SF, but left for the players to try to
identify. A JTAS much later gave the correct answers. Retief was one,
Earl Dumarest was another, Luke Skywalker was in there too)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:58:41 PST
Subject: Re: Great Reading!!!

In mail you write:

> Well, I will admit that I am NOT the most well read sci-fi fan, but I have
> read a bit, and I am amazed that one of my FAVORITE selections has not been
> mentioned.  Yes, I know this selection has little Traveller feel to it, but
> others have admited that their selections were not very Travelleresque.  My
> favorites are Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat books.  I said that they
> weren't very Traveller, but I think I was wrong.  They are definitely not
> HARD, HARD Sci-Fi, but they are good (IMNSHO).  Some great adventures can be
> gleaned from the pages.  Just my 2 bits.

For that matter, nobdy has mentioned Keith Laumer's Retief stories.
Jame Retief is an minor diplomat in the CDT (Corp Diplomatique
Terrestrienne). And he's usually solving problems in a decidedly
*un*-diplomatic manner. :-)

Laumer served in the US Consular Corps for a number of years, so it's
quite likely that the people he surrounds Reief with are based om
experience. 

You (and your players) will never look at a bureaucrat the same way
again (Is he Ambassador PlushBottom, or assitant 5th secretary Retief?
your life may depend on the difference!)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 01 Oct 96 18:55:46 +1000
Subject: The Archaean Thesis (longish)

     *THE ARCHAEAN THESIS*
     
     BACKGROUND
     In the Year Zero, the Solomani Thesis (that humaniti had been spread 
     around the galaxy by the Ancient Droyne) had not yet been proposed. 
     During the early Imperium, dozens of academics, novelists and tabloid 
     journalists proposed competing theories about the identity of the 
     Ancients. 
     
     Few generalisations could be made from the vast diversity even within 
     the few Ancient sites in known space; however, it *was* known that the 
     Ancients had spread throughout known space, destroyed themselves 
     during a Final War that lasted over a thousand years, and that Ancient 
     sites appeared to be strongly correlated with the various subspecies 
     of Humaniti, both existing and extinct. 
     
     THE ARCHAEAN THESIS
     Probably the leading scientific theory of this period was known as the 
     "Archaean Thesis", a direct precursor of the Solomani Thesis. The 
     Archaean Thesis postulated that the Ancients were actually a race of 
     Humaniti (the Archaeans), who developed vast technology on Earth 
     hundreds of thousands of years ago. The minor human races across known 
     space were believed to be the *descendants* of the Ancient human 
     survivors of the Final War, who had been blasted back to a 
     pretechnological existence. 
     
     The Archaean Thesis achieved a level of public attention far greater 
     than its rather tenuous scientific basis deserved. Given the degree of 
     bigotry within the Solomani of the early Imperium, it is hardly 
     surprising that the Archaean Thesis attracted substantial support, 
     particularly among the Solomani nobility and some archaeological 
     scientists. 
     
     The Archaean Thesis acted as a powerful force for Imperial expansion 
     for three reasons. First, it transformed many scientists into 
     enthusiastic supporters of Cleon's expansionist plans; these 
     "Archaeanites" were keen to return to the known worlds of Humaniti 
     (particularly Terra and Vland) to search for further evidence of Ancient 
     artifacts. Secondly, since the Archaean Ancients could only have 
     evolved on Terra, the Archaean Thesis lent further force to the 
     Solomani nobility's delusions of grandeur. Thirdly, it led many 
     Solomani to claim, arrogantly, that they were entitled to rule the 
     galaxy, not merely as the former lords of the Ramshackle Empire, but 
     as the descendants of the Ancients themselves. 
     
     The Archaean Thesis died out around the year 150, when its 
     inconsistencies and contradictions became too glaring for even the 
     Solomani to ignore any longer. 
     
     GAME HOOKS & ADVENTURE IDEAS: 
     What is less widely known in Year Zero is that many of the scientists 
     favouring the Archaean Thesis are supported by Cleon himself, because 
     of the substantial political benefits that it brings the Emperor. 
     
     1. Intelligence operations: Cleon's agents attempt to 'silence' an 
     archaeologist who is an outspoken critic of the Archaean Thesis. She 
     has raised a number of difficult questions, such as why many Ancient 
     artifacts appear to have been designed along clearly nonhuman lines 
     (tools and weapons designed for four-fingered hands, furniture far too 
     small for humans and made to accommodate protruding wing-like 
     structures on the back...), and why some of the environmental 
     conditions within Ancient sites (such as atmosphere, lighting, 
     artificial gravity and temperature) seemed to be significantly 
     different from those that humans would find comfortable. 
     
     The PCs may be intelligence agents of one of Cleon's political 
     opponents, whom the archaeologist approaches for protection. The PCs 
     could alternatively be Cleon's agents, in which case they will be 
     pursuing the archaeologist while trying to avoid further publicity. 
     
     2. Crime: Some nobles with more money than brains will pay large sums 
     of money to buy evidence of the existence of the Archaeans. 
     Unscrupulous PCs might decide to try their hand at fraud, by 
     fabricating 'artifacts' for sale. 
     
     3. Exploration: A scientific team, filled with enthusiasm for the 
     glorious Solomani destiny, is setting off for Terra (or another planet 
     such as Vland) to search for evidence of the Archaeans. They require a 
     ship and crew to take them there. They do not seem to realise that 
     Sylea is a *very* long way from their destination. 
     
     Background reading: anything by Erich von Daniken ;] 
     
     Discussion? Comments? Even flames are welcome these days...

------------------------------

From: Ed Dowgiallo <edowgial@prolog.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 08:11:37 -0400
Subject: Naval Bases

I guess I needed to be more specific. So far my group has a picture of a 
naval base as being an extremely large craft in planetary orbit that is 
an active and major piece of the system defense. We have sort of assumed 
that in addition to being an orbiting fortress, that you can fly a 
capital ship into one as in the later Star Trek movies and TNG.

We are trying to prepare to play out a major space battle, where the 
purpose of the battle is to destroy, disable, or capture said naval 
base. Have any of the companies that owned Traveller ever actually 
published any sort of detailed information about a naval base as either 
part of a source book or an adventure?

If not, what is a reasonable displacement? 100,000? 500,000? a million? 
I am talking about a naval base for the Sword Worlds at this point.

Would you expect the Sword Worlds base to have sensor satellites for 
extended targetting? A space minefield of some kind to limit approaches?

Would it have a small number of very large weapons or a very large 
number of point defense type weapons? It is, after all, primarily 
defensive in purpose.

How large a fleet do the Sword Worlds possess? How large for the 
Darrians? What would be the typical squadron stationed at a naval base?

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 08:58:06 -0400
Subject: Hardback in South Jersey

Hardback came to the office yesterday (but sadly, I was on a business
trip so I couldn't pick it up until this morning). This is the first I've seen of
T4 (I actually was able to keep from buying a softback until the hardback
came), and I think it looks great! I'd have liked to see a serif font for text,
though...

Can't wait to get it home and read it!

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 02:26:33 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Deck Plans: What Next?

Moin Erwin Fritz,

> >         I realy like his 3d drawing, but I prefer more technical
> >         looking plans. I'm also working on some deck plans (using XFig,
> >         transfig2gif and Netscape as a viewer) and I have an old
> >         deckplan for a Yacht form an old german fanzine. I think its CT.
> > Is it in a format you could post?

	I would use gif and Xfig on a html page, so you can use
	edit it on any unix workstation, and view it on nearly
	any computer.

	But as I'm on "Frankfurt Book Fair" from wednesday,
	I wont have time to do it right now.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 02:18:06 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: The Poor Steward

Moin Paul Walker,

> What skill is it that a Steward actually uses to see if he is a good
> Steward.  I seem to recall a Service skill in one of the incarnations of
> Traveller, but I know it isn't in T4.  Yes, I know I could add a Service
> skill, but I don't want to do that if I don't have to.  Any other suggestions?

	On a free/far trader a steward should have a the 3 medizine
	skills for at least 2, so the steward is more the poor
	traders medizine. On a liner a steward should know about
	service, liason, ... for at least 2.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: "Matt Lewis" <lewis@griffin.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 14:41:29 +0100
Subject: Starship questions, somebody help newbie in distress!

Right, I've had T4 for a while now, and I've got round to reading the 
starship chapters, but I have some questions:

1) On p89, it says that scooping fuel "is possible for streamlined and 
partially streamlined hulls (configurations 1 to 6)." Does this include 
airframe hulls? Where can I find the configuration of a vessel, or how can 
I work it out?

2) Which ships have "dispersed structures" or are "planetoids" which
cannot land on any world? Which ones have streamlining, and can land on
any planet (again, does this include airframe hulls)? I cannot find this
information on the USP. 

3) Are the crew figures correct in the military controls table, p105 (ie,
all 0.0)?

4) In the USP description section, p96, it says that cotrols are military 
fibre-optics - fib, or standard control systems - std. On p101 it says the 
light fighter's controls are "Military Standard". Is this Fib or Std?

5) Again on p96, it says that a ships FCR is according to the FCR table. 
Yet the light fighter on p101 has an FCR of 1 and is TL12, while the FCR 
table on p112 says TL12 = FCR4. Am I doing something wrong here?

6) I assume when a weapon is 9-7-4-3, it does 9 dam at v. short range, 7
at short, 4 at medium and 3 at long. Is this right? Also, the TL11, 10
laser military battery has USP profile 9-5-3-12 (p110). What's going on
here?

All help is welcomed with open arms.

- -------------------------------------
Matt Lewis mailto:lewis@griffin.co.uk
http://www.griffin.co.uk/users/lewis/

------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:22:12 +1000
Subject: Vilani Nobility

Hi!

I'm currently writing up a little article on the Vilani Nobility and,
apart from references to the Shadow Emperor and the Isgiirdi (Ruling
Council) I am not aware that there *are* any references to Vilani Noble
Ranks.

However, since I don't have access to *Vilani & Vargr* (?) as issued by
Digest Group, perhaps there *is* something that was published about this?
Anyone know? I have a whole system worked out based on what, as far as I
can guess, is the defining culture for the (language at least) Vilani and
I'd hate to finish the article and find it's all contradicted by something
else!!!

Any help would be greatly appreciated. (Oh, and I plan to follow it up
"real soon" with an article on Vilani *Military* ranks - and I don't think
there's *anything* ever been mentioned about those - so, again, if I'm
wrong, *details*, please!!!)

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 09:22:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Add ons for t4

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Darryl Adams wrote:

> 
> I wanted to add this stuff in , as my campaign needs it. 
> 
> Any feedback would be apreciated.

Your technical school idea is good, and it is definitely something that 
most (all?) game systems overlook, yet which is very much a part of real 
life.  

I have one question, though - your system assumes that technical schools 
yield the same Edu benefit as college, on a year-by-year basis.  Is this 
correct?  Never having attended a technical school, I honestly don't know 
if that is the amount that should be added.

I also liked the skills write-ups you did.  They will certainly come in 
handy!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 10:48:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #470

Hi.

Leonard Erickson said:

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 05:44:20 PST
>Subject: Re: blow all starboard hatches!

>In mail you write:

<snip>

>His figures have *got* to be way off. And in fact they are. While there
>*is* a relationship between pressure and thrust, there are a lot of
>other factors involved. 2,000,000 newtons is 400,000 pounds thrust.
>That's in the same league as *large* rocket engine. A mere hole in the
>hull *won't give those thrust levels.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that my figures are right on. BTW, the figure
calculated from a two-square-meter meter hole at one atm. is 200,000 N,
not 2,000,000.

>Consider that by his formula, opening a bottle of pop (at something
>like 50-75 psi) should knock you over. It doesn't.

Hmm... Most of the pressure escapes when the lid is first cracked open
(very small hole area), before the top comes off. The pressure
disappears so fast, that the total impulse (force times time) is too low
to knock you over.

The same thing applies to starships, incidentally. The 0.02 G factor
that I calculated in my previous post (which, admittedly, you couldn't
have read yet when you posted your message) for a 2 m^2 hole in a 10^6
kg scout courier would decrease rather rapidly, providing more of
*lurch* than an accelleration.

>Somebody posted figures for the average molecular velocity of the
>molecules. If the interior walls and exterior hull were shaped such as
>to form a DeLaval nozzle, then you could treat it like a rocket. In
>which case the thrust is directly related to the exhaust velocity.
>Which is that same molecular velocity. 

If you did this calculation using the ideal gas laws, you should get the
same value for the thrust that I did (Thrust = Pressure times Area).
Because that is how pressure is originally derived in the ideal gas model.

- -Rob


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #474
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 1 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 475

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Shadows Plans - correct location
         2. Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed
         3. Re: The Poor Steward
         4. Re: Add ons for t4
         5. Frankfurt Book Fair (this weekend)
         6. Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills
         7. T4 Hardbacks
         8. Re: Add ons for t4
         9. Core Subsector - why the change?
        10. T4 Hardbacks in Mid-Missouri
        11. Re: Homebrew T4 Attack DM Reference
        12. Re: T4 Hardbacks
        13. Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed
        14. Singed hardbacks
        15. T4 hardback
        16. Re: Add ons for t4
        17. Re: Naval Bases (My solution?? Que :)
        18. Software trouble
        19. Re: Core Subsector - why the change?
        20. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #466
        21. TNE --> T4 Damage
        22. Re: Modeling advice needed
        23. Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues & Blue Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 01 Oct 1996 10:44:26 GMT
Subject: Shadows Plans - correct location

>> http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GaminfClub/Traveller/Shadows.html
>
>I can't connect to the above; I keep getting the infamous "URL...not
>found on this server" message. I've tried multiple times and at
>different times (including 3:45am CDT) Anyone else having this problem?

Oops. Typo.  The correct URL is:

http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/Shadows.html

GamingClub not GaminfClub.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 01 Oct 1996 10:54:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed

>Were you planning on making these (mold making and casting) or just
>bashing them?  And what scale?

I have no idea how to do mold-making and casting.  Love to learn, but with a
60-70 hour week I can't take any general interest courses.

I have some millput modelling eopoxy that Mike at Sci-Fi world recommended.  

I use 25mm figures, so I'd like the end product to fit with that scale.

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 16:36:23 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: The Poor Steward

Moin Paul Walker,

> Well, this is what I'm doing now.  The steward is a combination or his
> Perception, Carousing, and Leadership skills, as well as his Endurance and
> Intelligence.  I was wondering what skills others think might be necessary,
> or adventageous for a steward?

	On a Jayhawk/Marava Far Trader the steward is also the gunner
	and also the medical, as they have only 3 people.
	On a Liner the steward doubles as small craft pilots.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 16:09:41 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: Add ons for t4

Moin Darryl Adams,

>   This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
>   while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

	Sorry : THIS IS A FLAME !

	please dont post mime here, even quoted-printable is nearly
	unreadable, BASE64 is junk.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 16:49:06 +0000 ()
Subject: Frankfurt Book Fair (this weekend)

Hy Folks,

	I'll be at frankfurt bookfair this week. You can meet me
	at hall 4.0 room D1170 where an other guy of our company
	has a speach about the Web on Fr 13.30 and Sa 17.00.

	Of course I'll visit FanPro and other gamers in my spare
	time there.

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 01 Oct 1996 10:50:12 GMT
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills

>When a situation comes up where certain skills would be useful, how much
>do you take into account the skill levels of the characters and how much
>does the player's role playing come into account?
>
>Typical skills I refer to include carousing, liason, diplomacy, bribery
>and streetwise.  

An easy way for these skills, which almost always involve an uncertain task,
is this:

Have the player roleplay the situation.  Let them roll their dice as usual. 
But instead of rolling _your_ dice, you use your opinion of their roleplaying
to choose a number.  This lets their character's skill count for something,
without eliminating the most fun part of the game.

------------------------------

From: Steven Ward <Steven.Ward@brunel.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 16:36:50 BST
Subject: T4 Hardbacks

I just thought I would let everybody know, that my singed hardback copy 
arrived... Three weeks ago!!!!

I didn't want to brag, but I have been convinced to do it!
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen? It's been 15 hours. We are gonna grow old and die in here. 
Stephen? Stephen, there's a Martian war machine parked outside. 
They'd like to have a word with you about the common cold." 
- -- Vance Hendricks to Dr. Franklin in Babylon 5:"Infection"

Steven Ward
E-Mail: Steven.Ward@Brunel.ac.uk 
World wide web: http://www.wlihe.ac.uk/~ward/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------






------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 08:41:46 -0700
Subject: Re: Add ons for t4

On a brief glance it looked cool to me.  Joe, on your questions about tech schools, most 
of them focus on the tech and a lot less on the general ed stuff.  Not much need for oil 
painting classes at an engineering school ya know.

Matt

------------------------------

From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 16:50:57 +0100
Subject: Core Subsector - why the change?

Hi,

I've just gotten a look at T4 (just a look It hasn't reached my part of the
U.K. yet - thank you Virgin Smegastore). I didn't get much time to look at it,
and as I was running what I hoped was a 'Milleau: 0' adventure I concentrated
on examining the Core Subsector Map.

 My first problem with it was that it didn't match up with previous products -
DGP material and the Atlas of the Imperium. As I'd spent quite a lot of money 
purchasing old traveller material I was quite annoyed. The old material was of
very good quality, had a lot of material to start adventures with, and IG 
decide to create their own Core Subsector. Will they redraw the rest of the 
imperium? Will they make the rest of my Traveller collection obsolete? 

The second problem I had with the Core map was the number of unexplored worlds
in it - surely the Third Imperium - encompassing more than a sector in the
year 0, has explored it's own back yard.

Does anyone from Imperium Games want to answer these questions?

Eamopn.

------------------------------

From: Ryan Dooley <ryan@coe.missouri.edu>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:09:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4 Hardbacks in Mid-Missouri

Hey all,

I just got my signed hardback last night, but I have had another hardback
for about two weeks now.

Except for the erratta :), the book is great IMESHO.  I am looking forward
to Starships.

- --ryan

=========================================================================
+ Ryan Dooley                       * ryan@coe.missouri.edu             +
+ CTIE Systems Administrator        * voice: (573) 882-2162             +
+ University of Missouri - Columbia * College of Education              +
=========================================================================


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 12:08:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Homebrew T4 Attack DM Reference

At 12:35 AM 10/1/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi folks,
>
>A feature of The Traveller Book which I always found helpful, but which I
>was disappointed to see left out of T4, was the handy one-page listing of
>all the applicable attack DMs. (I've not read MT nor TNE, so I don't know
>if they had them). Without a reference such as this, you may forget to use
>all the applicable DMs.
>
>So here's my reference sheet. Of the Special Pools, I have only included
>Fatigue. (I didn't like the way the rest had been implemented.) Add 'em if
>you use 'em.
>
>I've also thrown together a handy Movement/Action Options list for the
>players to use, which is included at the bottom. Always good to know what
>your options are.

>PS: If you haven't yet checked out the Armor Table that James Garriss and I
>together, I do recommend it: <http://cs.odu.edu/~garriss/t4/armor.htm>. All
>the Armor ratings by weapon type and armor type, for all T4 and CT armors,
>arranged for convenient use in combat. Includes armor coatings. Feedback to
>Jim at <jpg@langley.mitre.org>.

Glenn (or anyone else), any interest in having me html these up and place
them on the web page next to the armor?

 James Garriss                   | "I think there is a world market
 jpg@langley.mitre.org           |  for maybe five computers."
 http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss  |  Thomas Watson (IBM Chairman 1943)

  


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:20:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Hardbacks

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Steven Ward wrote:

> I just thought I would let everybody know, that my singed hardback copy 
> arrived... Three weeks ago!!!!
> 
> I didn't want to brag, but I have been convinced to do it!

Uhh....well, *I* wouldn't brag about having a "singed" hardback copy of 
T4, but whatever . . .

;)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:19:35 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed

 
> I have no idea how to do mold-making and casting.  Love to learn, but with a
> 60-70 hour week I can't take any general interest courses.

I was thinking of adding an area to my web page (Ants, that is) with
step by step mold making instructions for people without bell jars
etc..  Would anybody be interested in this?

> I use 25mm figures, so I'd like the end product to fit with that scale.

There have been some good ideas posted.  Figure out how big the
critters need to be in scale, then find something that works.  Using
seeds is a great idea, BTW (Leonard's idea I think)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:21:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Singed hardbacks

Did anyone else receive a singed hardback 3 weeks early? Was it because 
they partially burned up on atmospheric re-entry?

I thought perhaps that was the cause, and also the reason they arrived at 
some locations three weeks early. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 12:36:18 -0500
Subject: T4 hardback

Mine arrived in the mail yesterday.  I gave it a quick run through.
My first impression is good.  I haven't had a chance to run through the
mechanics yet though.  It reminded me of the big black CT book.  If that is
what Imperium Games was shooting for, congratulations!

I liked the earplug/comm unit combination.  It's a cleaned up
commdot/multicomm from MT.  Hmmm... does the implanted earplug count as
cyberware? :-)

I would have liked to see a gauss rifle listed.  They are mentioned as
being part of augmented battle dress (i.e. CT Battle Dress, T4 Battle Dress
is CT Combat Armor), but not as a separate weapon.  Odds are players won't
get 'em, but they probably won't get augmented battle dress either.
Also missing, IMHO, was the Combat Environment Suit.  A lower tech bit of
military tech that players are more likely to get their hands on.

Both of those will be in the equipment guide...right?

The color plates, were, well...colorful.  Personally, I would have
preferred color plates of the ships listed in the book, or even a Scout
team, or armored Marines, on foot.

The B&W plates, each set setting up an adventure, were great!


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love."
 - Turkish Proverb   		http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:33:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Add ons for t4

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996 mchildre@pcshs.com wrote:

> On a brief glance it looked cool to me.  Joe, on your questions about tech schools, most 
> of them focus on the tech and a lot less on the general ed stuff.  Not much need for oil 
> painting classes at an engineering school ya know.

So, you would agree that +1 edu per year in a technical school is too 
much?  I'd say just add the skills, and leave Edu alone...or, perhaps add 
+1 edu for 3 years.  What do you think?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@Communique.se>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 18:36:04 +0200
Subject: Re: Naval Bases (My solution?? Que :)

1. When i make a station (ground or orbital) and it will be a key facility
i    make it as a ship. Then if i get attacked i have the stats for battle
and    damage. 

2. When i do this i don't install any drives except some stationary
thrusters    to hold it in place. After all, a station is nothing else than
a ship       without any propulsion.

3. My guidelines concerning the size, i use this: S=(Sc*T)*15
	S=Station	Sc=Largest craft    T=number of Sc
   A station that takes crafts must have the capacity to accommodate the
crew of    the ships and act as a middleman when handling goods and cargo.
And how much    food and water does it take to feed them all. Perhaps the
station also is a             refueling depot for small to middle-sized
ships. In wartime there will be    troops and gunners also to consider.

4. Now we come to weapons!!
   I think the combination would be the best. A couple of tripple turrets
maxed    as a battery as long distance defense grid against middle to large
ships.    When dealing with attack fighters i would suggest a lot of single
fast    shooting turrets to secure the closest perimeter.
	
   An interesting idea would be a couple of satellites shaped as stationary
   crafts with spinal mounts against the larger cap ships, guided from the
  station.
   
5. Sensor satellites is very interesting if connected to the station using
beam communicators. It would take an instant to learn from any enemy
incursion. They don't have to be manned either. A standard long range
automated communications satellite would be enough.

Since i don't know anything about military strength i can't give you any
specifics other than to change the accommodations to cover the grounds sort
a speak.

Once i made a 2'000'000 T of orbital prison smacked into a planetoid
complete with heavy defense to repel assisted breakouts. As you might have
guessed this system was the prison for the entire subsector.

Hope you got some clues of how to proceed.


	 %&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%
	% Name : Goran Sjoberg                   %
	& Email: NGC1201@Communique.se           &
	% Url  : Http://www.communique.se/goran  %
	%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%

------------------------------

From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@Communique.se>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 18:36:07 +0200
Subject: Software trouble

Curse.. Blasphemy... Insult....

	Now it is confirmed.
When i upload a simple excel file it becomes corrupt and crunches upon
downloading. I have seen some of you using this method to incorporate your
excel files to the WWW. Have you experienced any trouble like that?

If i can't fix it i will use pack and encode/decode programs to get it
online. What kind of pack formats and encoding do you prefer i'd use?

Used string
	<A HREF="ttneship.xlw">ttneship.xlw</A>

	Please help!!!! squeal!
		Goran Sjoberg
	 %&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%
	% Name : Goran Sjoberg                   %
	& Email: NGC1201@Communique.se           &
	% Url  : Http://www.communique.se/goran  %
	%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:37:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Core Subsector - why the change?

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996 E.Watters@queens-belfast.ac.uk wrote:

>  My first problem with it was that it didn't match up with previous products -
> DGP material and the Atlas of the Imperium. As I'd spent quite a lot of money 
> purchasing old traveller material I was quite annoyed. The old material was of
> very good quality, had a lot of material to start adventures with, and IG 
> decide to create their own Core Subsector. Will they redraw the rest of the 
> imperium? Will they make the rest of my Traveller collection obsolete? 

I'm not from Imperium Games (obviously..grin), but I do recall their 
answer to this aspect.  You're free to use whatever materials you want 
with T4 - CT era, MT era, or Virus era - and from any publisher - GDW, 
DGP, Paranoia Press, whatever - but if you choose to use IG stuff, you'll 
be assured of support.

Meaning...they may change some things here and there, and there is no 
guarantee that their new products will support the old products' view of 
things.  But nothing is stopping you from using the old products.

We had a discussion about this a few weeks ago....hopefully we won't be 
getting into that again! :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 96 18:07 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #466

In-Reply-To: <9609291514.AA21932@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: More T4 Qs/Obs

     Reading ahead since my last post, I happened to notice that, while 
the intro to the Psionics chapter specifically mentions that Psionics 
are socially accepted in the early 3I, finding a Psionics Institute is 
just as hard as in the 1100s.  Considering that we all (well, most of 
us) know all about the Psionic Supressions and the [Hiver-type 
Manipulation, I can't think of the specific word] therein, I began to 
wonder.  Is the book implying that the Supressions weren't as big a deal 
as we've been previously led to believe, and that psionic study was 
never very common or socially acceptable, or is this just another case 
of game-balance-concerns combined with sloppy editing? >>
     
Perhaps, in the early 3I, psionics were still not well understood. There 
was little organisation between Institutes, and not enough demand and/or 
money for a large number of them. As time passes, they will become more 
common, peaking immediately before the Suppressions (when was that, 
about 600?), at which point the numbers will rapidly drop off again.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:16:18 -0700
Subject: TNE --> T4 Damage

I'm not sure if my message got through so here it is again.  I recently
recieved my copy of T4 and I like what I see.  (Standing ovation) ....
Anyway, does anyone know how to convert the damage values from personal
weapons in TNE or FFS for that matter into the values used in T4?  Thanks
for any help in advance.

Brad Urwiller
ravyn@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:20:09 -0700
Subject: Re: Modeling advice needed

Someone mentioned they were trying to model a swarm of ants. . .  Just go
down to your local hobby/toy/novelty shop and by some plastic ants.  For a
couple of bucks you can get hundreds of them.

Brad Urwiller
ravyn@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 13:40:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues & Blue Traveller

Rich Ostorero writes:

>> 
>> Sexist, pornographic, art-for-art's sake garbage? ;)
>> 
>> Bravo to Marc Miller for for Goal # 5 !!! <applause>   :-)>
>
>That's one I agree with wholeheartedly, too. With a universe 
>of adventure waiting for us in Milleu 0, who needs gratituous 
>babes in skintight spacesuits?

   Harold raises his arm enthusiastically, looks around, feels self-concious,
appears to look for deordorant stains on his shirt then lowers his arm
gingerly....  :-)

   I recall a conversation with friends in which we came up with a new
career: Prostitute.  We even came up with ranks, survival rolls, and a new
skill--I'll let you use your imagination as to what it was.  We figured that
the Prostitute career broke down into two subcategories: Call Girl/Gigolo (a
high class Prostitute) and Hooker (a low class Prostitute).  Call
Girls/Gigolos received predominantly social skills (Carousing, etc.), got
more mustering out money, and had less chance of being killed.  Hookers
received a much more diverse range of skills, but had a higher survival roll
and little in the way of mustering out funds.  In addition to the survival
rolls that both subcategories had to perform, they had to make a roll to see
if they got busted for prostitution each term.  Getting busted resulted in an
immediate lowering of social status.

   Not something you could put in Challenge or JTAS, but it was fun to work
out.  I may still have the notes I wrote down on the subject, but they were
buried in the "Traveller notes and ideas to be sorted" box long ago, and the
Divine Being only knows where they are now.

   Official Traveller publications have remained Disney-like in their
approach to relationships and sex (and perhaps should--given the political
climate worldwide), but I've never had a problem with the introduction of
more adult themes (as in mature not porno) into the game at the group level.
 It gives the characters more depth, and adds additional complexity to
plotlines without having to resort to cheap plot twists (that Vargr was
really a short Aslan, oh no!).

   And besides, there's nothing like a gratuituous babe in a skin-tight
spacesuit to distract a party of PCs while the bad guys are sabotaging the
PCs' ship....

Regards,

Harold


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #475
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 1 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 476

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Add ons for t4
         2. T4 artwork
         3. Re: Modeling advice needed
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #466
         5. T4: Another good set of inspirational novels
         6. Re: Exit Visa
         7. Re: My T4 review/rant... (long)
         8. Naval Bases (longish)
         9. Works file
        10. gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.  Want,...Well...
        11. Re: Naval Bases
        12. Re: Software trouble
        13. Re: What We Need (longish, ranting)
        14. Re: Orbital, graveyards...
        15. For Mike Barry concerning Gal 2.1
        16. TAS money and characters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:31:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Add ons for t4

>So, you would agree that +1 edu per year in a technical school is too 
>much?  I'd say just add the skills, and leave Edu alone...or, perhaps add 
>+1 edu for 3 years.  What do you think?

>-Joe

Joe,
	I guess that would depend on your interpretation of what EDU represents as a 
characteristic.  I mean what effect would adding a +1 EDU do to the character in your 
campaign?  If it isn't a big deal one way or the other then...what's the problem?  If 
it's general knowledge that EDU represents then I would change it to an additional skill 
than a +1 after 3 years.

Matt


------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 13:57:32 -0400
Subject: T4 artwork

One more thing about T4 artwork.  When the second printing comes out,
the page with the weapons illustrations really, really should be
replaced.  The weapons, as drawn, are only useful as clubs to beat the
artist over the head with...

- -- 
 Mark Urbin eclipse@ultranet.com  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy 
spot on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
Opinions are MINE!  All Mine!  Bwwwaaaahhhh!

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:57:18 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Modeling advice needed

 
> Someone mentioned they were trying to model a swarm of ants. . .  Just go
> down to your local hobby/toy/novelty shop and by some plastic ants.  For a
> couple of bucks you can get hundreds of them.

Yeah, but they're ant-sized in 1:1 scale, not in 25mm scale!  Those
plastic ants are about a meter long in 25mm.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 96 18:07 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #466

In-Reply-To: <9609291514.AA21932@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: More T4 Qs/Obs

     Reading ahead since my last post, I happened to notice that, while 
the intro to the Psionics chapter specifically mentions that Psionics 
are socially accepted in the early 3I, finding a Psionics Institute is 
just as hard as in the 1100s.  Considering that we all (well, most of 
us) know all about the Psionic Supressions and the [Hiver-type 
Manipulation, I can't think of the specific word] therein, I began to 
wonder.  Is the book implying that the Supressions weren't as big a deal 
as we've been previously led to believe, and that psionic study was 
never very common or socially acceptable, or is this just another case 
of game-balance-concerns combined with sloppy editing? >>
     
Perhaps, in the early 3I, psionics were still not well understood. There 
was little organisation between Institutes, and not enough demand and/or 
money for a large number of them. As time passes, they will become more 
common, peaking immediately before the Suppressions (when was that, 
about 600?), at which point the numbers will rapidly drop off again.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 96 11:14 PDT
Subject: T4: Another good set of inspirational novels

I just finished reading David Feintuch's new science fiction series, and I
can't even begin to tell you just how good these stories were - I rate them
amoung one of the absolute _best_ reads I've had in years.  Just from
reading these books I felt the itch to run traveller.

Here I searched the net and found a breif blurb on each, plus the details on
their isbn, etc.

Joel

MIDSHIPMAN'S HOPE

Publisher: Aspect 
Published: 11/01/94 
ISBN: 0446600962 
Binding: Paperback 

In the year 2194, Nick Seafort is a 17-year-old midshipman aboard the
Hibernia, a huge interstellar liner cruising to the Hope Nation colony 69
light-years away. When all the senior officers are killed in a freak
accident, the captaincy falls to Nick--who must battle inexperience, mutiny,
and an alien horror. Original.

CHALLENGERS HOPE

Publisher: Aspect 
Published: 05/01/95 
ISBN: 0446600970 
Binding: Paperback 
Price: $5.50 ~~~ Your Price:4.95 

An alien attack and an admiral's betrayal leave a wounded Commander Nicholas
Seafort stranded
aboard the Portia, a doomed space ship filled with arrogant colonists and
violent street children. His crew is rebellious, his ship is short on
weapons, fuel and food, making them easy prey for the alien predators
massing to attack. Original.

PRISONER'S HOPE

Publisher: Aspect 
Published: 10/01/95 
ISBN: 0446600989 
Binding: Paperback 
Price: $5.50 ~~~ Your Price:4.95 

Assigned to Hope Nation while recovering from injuries, Captain Nicholas
Seafort is appointed
liaison to the wealthy planters whose holdings are vital to the Earth-Hope
Nation relationship. But he's soon a pawn in a dangerous game when the
planters, who fear that Earth has abandoned them to an alien attack, rebel,
declaring their independence. Original.

FISHERMAN'S HOPE

Publisher: Aspect 
Published: 03/01/96 
ISBN: 0446600997 
Binding: Paperback 
Price: $5.99 ~~~ Your Price:5.39 

Newly appointed Naval Commandant Nicholas Seafort's past unexpectedly
catches up with him
when an evil politician blackmails him into giving up his commission. But
then an alien attack
revives Nick's career, and soon he will lead Earth's defenses against
annihilation. Alone at the center of a cosmic apocalypses, Nick will face
his most challenging battle. Original. 
=====================================================================
| email:  jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com    Joel Lovell                   |
| cell:   (503)539-2085               Intel Corporation             | 
| office: (503)264-3792               2111 NE 25th Ave, M/S: JF2-74 |
| fax:    (503)264-8100               Hillsboro, OR 97124           |
| "standard disclaimer's apply."    		                    |
=====================================================================


------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 00:38:19 +0200
Subject: Re: Exit Visa

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 lewis@chara.gsu.edu wrote:
> Thomas Biskup wrote:
> >Something I was wondering about: "Exit Visa"
> >starts on 300-1105.  Does this date correspond to the year 5626 AD (=
> >4521 AD [Founding of the Third Empire] + 1105)?  Probably not, since
> >this would be after the Rebellion. 
> It does mean 1105 years after the founding of the 3rd Imperium.
> The Rebellion happened in 1116, eleven years AFTER the Exit Visa adventure.  

Mmmhhh... doesn't the timeline on page 9 mention that the third imperium 
lasted from 4521 to 5637 AD?  This would make 4521 AD the foudning year, 
wouldn't it?  4521 AD + 1105 = 5626 AD.  Page 9 again states that the 
rebellion starts in 5367 AD. 5367 AD < 5626 AD.  Am I totally confused, 
totally stupid or is this yet another ting for the errata :-} ?

Greetings from Germany,

		Thomas "Dazed by Critical Errata Hit" Biskup.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 00:49:28 +0200
Subject: Re: My T4 review/rant... (long)

On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Thomas Biskup wrote:
> I enjoyed your review.  I just have one negative comment to make, and 
> that is that I believe you may have misunderstood the combat system.  A 
> revolver has a damage rating of 3, so it is very possible to knock an 
> opponent unconcious with one hit.  Assuming the opponent is average 
> (777777), and has no armor, and the attacker makes an average damage roll 
> (3D average = 10.5), the opponent will be unconcious since the first 
> attack is applied to a single, random characteristic.

Hmmm... if this is so, I have to take back my complaint.  The right colun 
on page 57 of the rulebook ('The Effects of Wounds') seems to be a bit 
unclear to me:

>>Wound points are applied to ... physical characteristics. _Each die_
rolled is taken as a _single wound or group of wounds_. ... Normally, the 
player of the wounded character may decide which ... characteristic 
receives a specific die of wound points ... The execption is the _first 
wound_ received ... The damage points of this first wound are all applid 
to a single ... characteristic determined randomly.<<

The parts enclosed in _..._ made me think that this just referred to the 
first wound die (wasn't it handled this way in CT or is my memory 
failing?).  Your explanation sounds more reasonable anyway.  I'll 
definitely use it that way.  Thanks.

Greetings from Germany,

				Thomas Biskup.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 1 Oct 96 11:13:13 MS
Subject: Naval Bases (longish)

Ed Dowgiallo <edowgial@prolog.net> asks:

>I guess I needed to be more specific. So far my group has a picture of a 
>naval base as being an extremely large craft in planetary orbit that is 
>an active and major piece of the system defense. We have sort of assumed 
>that in addition to being an orbiting fortress, that you can fly a 
>capital ship into one as in the later Star Trek movies and TNG.


There's not much out there about Naval Bases, and really nothing that comes to 
mind about big orbital bases.  The Traveller Adventure has some information 
about a Naval Base, and there was a MegaTraveller adventure with info about a 
Naval Depot (that might have been DGP, though).  Usually, when a base is 
mentioned there is a groundside element and an orbital element.  The ground 
element serves smaller ships and small craft (say 5000 tons or less) and has 
barracks and storage areas.  The orbital area would service the bigger ships, 
and have extensive repair facilities for those large ships.

>If not, what is a reasonable displacement? 100,000? 500,000? a million? 
>I am talking about a naval base for the Sword Worlds at this point.

If you were looking to build an orbital complex that would CONTAIN the repair 
facilities, I would say the bigger the better.  1,000,000 tons would not be 
unreasonable, but I would consider a multi-million ton hull (extrapolate the 
values from whichever ship design sequence you use).  However, I think it would 
be fairly wasteful to build a base like that.  Instead, you would probably want 
an open framework or dispersed structure, with lots of long arms to hang 
modules off of and to allow ships to dock.  You would have several adjustable 
frameworkds that would be moved to surround ships in repair like a scaffolding 
to allow ease of access for outside repair crews and heavy equipment.

>Would you expect the Sword Worlds base to have sensor satellites for 
>extended targetting? A space minefield of some kind to limit approaches?
>Would it have a small number of very large weapons or a very large 
>number of point defense type weapons? It is, after all, primarily 
>defensive in purpose.

Now, just because its a big, spindly open structire does not mean the base is 
weak in terms of defense.  You've got all the room you need to add on crew and 
power modules.  You could realistically plug in however many spinal-type 
weapons you want or can afford.  You've got virtually infinite places to dock 
squadrons of small interceptors, larger fighters or SDBs.  You could have so 
much sensor redundancy as to make blinding the station impossible (short of 
vaporizing the thing).   And yes, I would have networks of sensor satellites 
and unmannded sensor stations scattered around the system.  The Light Speed 
delay on the signals would make these tactically unhelpful, but on an 
operational/strategic level the data they would provide would be priceless.

For the very rich and ambitious, you could have a Balck Globe around vital 
areas, with lots of room for plenty of energy sinks to take up the power that 
the globe absorbs.  The base does not need to be one continuous artifact, 
either; it could be dozens of stations around some arbitrary point in orbit, a 
series of geosynchronous stations, or even a vast field of old retired naval 
hulls converted into a series of base modules (this is what I usually use).

Remember when designing your base there are a couple of limiting factors; money 
and personnell.  The bigger you make you base, the more it costs and the more 
crew it requires.  For a Sector Fleet headquarters orbiting the Sector capital, 
an expensive base makes sense.  For a Naval Base with a Heavy Cruiser Squadron, 
a large base is possible, but not nearly as big as the first one I mentioned.  
For a Patrol Squadron base on some C Starport world off the beaten path, the 
base is probably going to be fairly small and lacking in features or luxuries.  
The Sword Worlds is not a huge empire, and its bases are probably going to be 
on the lean side.  Given their history of warfare (internal and external) I 
would imagine their bases are literally armed to the teeth.  And the Sword 
Worlds people are heavily into personal glory and bravado from what GDW 
background I've seen; give the base lots of small fighters and some really 
kick-ass SDBs.  Even in defense, I would expect the Sword Worlders to prefer 
more "aggressive" methods than passive shields or short-range laser batteries 
on the base.

>How large a fleet do the Sword Worlds possess? How large for the 
>Darrians? What would be the typical squadron stationed at a naval base?
In my campaign, I gave the Sword Worlds a fleet with a heavy Raider emphasis.  
Like the Germans in WWII, the Sword Worlds is badly outclassed in Naval terms 
by their neighbor (the Imperium).  They have some good ships, but their only 
chance of survival/success is to use tactics and methods not practiced by its 
adversary.  I only had a couple of Sword Worlds "Battle Fleets", but plenty of 
independant raider squadrons centered around a large (100,000 ton) Pocket 
Battleship or Pocket Carrier.  I gave the Darrians a smaller fleet, built along 
Imperial lines, but with several TL16 squadrons to help even the odds.  I don't 
have my notes, but IIRC the Sword Worlds fleet had two Battle Fleets each with 
a Battle Squadron (12 ships, 6 BBs or BCs), a Carrier Squadron (12 ships, 1 
Fleet Carrier, 6 smaller CVs), four or five Cruiser Squadrons (12 ships each, 
usually 4 Hvy Cruiser, 6 Lt Cruiser) and about a dozen escort, destroyer, 
support or transport squadrons.  Then they also had about a dozen Raider Groups 
of about 24 ships each.  About 12 of each squadron were smaller (5000 tons or 
less) and there was a Pocket BB and a Pocket CV in each squadonr.  All ships 
were Jump 4 minimum.

Hope this helps.  When you decide what to do, post your final result.  I would 
love to see it.

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@Communique.se>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 21:12:53 +0200
Subject: Works file

Note:
	I have now uploaded a works version of the ttneship sheet for those who
use that software. Sorry to say it is zipped.

	Goran Sjoberg

	 %&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%
	% Name : Goran Sjoberg                   %
	& Email: NGC1201@Communique.se           &
	% Url  : Http://www.communique.se/goran  %
	%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%

------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 15:25:29 -0500
Subject: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.  Want,...Well...

>That's one I agree with wholeheartedly, too. With a universe 
>of adventure waiting for us in Milleu 0, who needs gratituous 
>babes in skintight spacesuits?

Well...Given that the creator of "Macho Women with Guns" is a member
of the IG staff... :-)

One of my MWG publications (I think it's the latest release, combining
Macho Women with Guns, Bat Winged Bimbo from Hell, & Regenage Biker Nuns)
has a SF section, complete with modified TNE character sheets!

Hmmm....I smell a tie in here!  Hey Greg, is there going to be a Traveller
based MWG module?  Perhaps the JATS will continue the Challenge tradition
of an annual swimsuit issue... :-)




- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love."
 - Turkish Proverb   		http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 16:05:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Ed Dowgiallo wrote:
> We are trying to prepare to play out a major space battle, where the 
> purpose of the battle is to destroy, disable, or capture said naval 
> base. Have any of the companies that owned Traveller ever actually 
> published any sort of detailed information about a naval base as either 
> part of a source book or an adventure?

  There was a "high port" traveller supplement in Dragon magazine, quite a
while back. I still have it somewhere but nowhere handy...

> If not, what is a reasonable displacement? 100,000? 500,000? a million? 
> I am talking about a naval base for the Sword Worlds at this point.

   I'd say a *minimum* of 1MT, more like 4-5MT for a decent sized orbital
facility used for refits and manufacturing.

> Would you expect the Sword Worlds base to have sensor satellites for 
> extended targetting? A space minefield of some kind to limit approaches?

  *Any* major space power (and the Sword Worlds are arguably that) will
have extended sensor facilities, such as scout pickets and satellites at
an arbitrary perimiter (probably measured in AU)

   Any likely space minefield would likely be groups of SIMs deposited,
maintained, and *controlled* by a minesweeper type vessel. Power
requirements would be such that the minesweeper would have to keep station
near the missiles and probably keep a rotating maintenance schedule. (If
the 'sweeper has 60 missiles available, maybe 40 would be "on station" at
any given time, the rest being inspected and having their batteries
recharged) Because of the maintenance requirements, it isn't likely you'll
see a widely spread out "field", but rather a few densely packed
(relatively speaking) groups covering strategic approaches.

   SIMs (Semi-Independant Missiles) have their own passive sensors, and
are VERY small targets. The sensors would have EFFECTIVE targetting ranges
on the order of 100,000km, since they are passive in nature and the
missile is so small this makes them very difficult to detect. Since they
have their own sensors, the 'sweeper need not use it's own (revealing
itself) to fire the missiles.

   For logistical purposes, missiles displace 1/2 ship ton, and mass
seven metric tons. When designing a minesweeper, you should factor in
additional facilities for maintaining the "mines" and additional crew for
manning missile control stations.

> Would it have a small number of very large weapons or a very large 
> number of point defense type weapons? It is, after all, primarily 
> defensive in purpose.

   Go for point defence, main weapons would be provided by escorting
vessels on patrol. Use Adventure 5 (TCS) to determine how big the naval
budget would be, and how big the entire standing fleet would be.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 16:11:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Software trouble

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Goran Sjoberg wrote:
> When i upload a simple excel file it becomes corrupt and crunches upon
> downloading. I have seen some of you using this method to incorporate your
> excel files to the WWW. Have you experienced any trouble like that?

   I occasionally run into this problem, I think it has somethin to do
with a WWW browsers built-in assumptions on what is "text" and what is
"binary".

> If i can't fix it i will use pack and encode/decode programs to get it
> online. What kind of pack formats and encoding do you prefer i'd use?

   Use the PKZIP format. There are native executables for just about every
platform type from Info-ZIP.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 16:58:16 +0000
Subject: Re: What We Need (longish, ranting)

What is ad is that this version of Traveller will probably put out a few books, then die..
I know Traveller has its fans BUT so does everybody else, and everybody else is doing 
things differently (ie promoting in the near mainstream)
Traveller is the greatest RPG, regardless of system (CT, MT, TNE, T4) but it just is not 
depraved enough for current roleplayers in general

------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 01 Oct 96 16:51:49 EDT
Subject: Re: Orbital, graveyards...

yah, I was going to write up something along these lines when TNE first came
out, but was ill-equipped to pursue it (and TNE went a differnt direction
anyway). Somewhere between a justification for salvage and recovery ops and the
Space:1999 episode with the 'Siren' monster in one of the hulks...;->

------------------------------

From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 14:01:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: For Mike Barry concerning Gal 2.1

Mike, my reply to your email bounced for some weird reason. I'm resending
the message through the list, since it's of a general enough nature that
it might be useful to others:

You wrote:
> I have used Galactic 2.1 to write up quite a lot of the CT/MT/TNE 
> stuff for the Spinward Marches. You are welcome to use it if you like, 
> but I must warn you that I've put the different eras into the same 
> text documents! However, I've marked them off in each file eg
> PS there is also substantial amounts of DGP stuff mixed in with the 
> *canon* GDW material, however I have marked what publications I have 
> taken the material from. 

If you're just typing in official material verbatim, then it is illegal
for me to incorporate it into the program. However, if you are merely
using the official material as a jumping-off point for your own work
so that your write-ups are 90%+ original with only minimal quoting of
official material, then sure...  please send me what you've got. A few
requests to make life easier on me, though. Please make sure your name
and email address is on every world write-up that you send, and that each
one also includes a Traveller-year as of which it is current. This will
keep me straight on who did what (if there's one thing I'm totally anal
about, it's making sure everyone gets properly credited for their work :-)

jimv@empirenet.com

For those who haven't seen it, check out Gal 2.1 (a sector mapping program
for use w/ the IBM-PC) at my homepage.  http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv


------------------------------

From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 16:01:25 -0500
Subject: TAS money and characters

Catching up on mail again...gee, this list is busy!  :)

Lan Kelly <CyberWere@ConnectI.com> wrote:

>I was rolling up my first character he spent his first term in the 
>Marines, failed his continuance roll and got one roll on the Mustering 
>out table.  I roll a 6 on the Benefits Table and get TAS (of all 
>things).  Now the character is only 24 and going to continue in 
>another career or more. 
>
>Does he receive a High passage even during the creation time period.  
>Using conservative figures you could sell a High passage for 25% of 
>is face value and have and income of Cr15,000 per year.  Over a 20 
>year career the character can garner Cr300,000 in addition to any 
>other benefits.

I'll buck the trend here and say that this might be reasonable.  Do 
you know why they charge you a million credits to join up?  It's so 
that the Society can actually *afford* to get you those high passage
tickets!

The TAS pays out a high passage ticket every eight weeks, or six and
a half tickets each year per member.  The members are permitted to 
sell these tickets off -- it says so.  In classic Traveller, it said
you could sell a ticket for 80% of face value.  So, our young marine
could earn kCr 52 each year by converting all his tickets to cash 
and depending on working passages.  Not bad, and a 5.2 percent 
annual return on the original million.  In twenty years, that pays 
off the initial megacredit initiation fee, even assuming that you
don't reinvest the proceeds.  Of course, our friend the marine had
the initial million put up for him by someone; the Marines, the Navy,
the Society itself, or someone like that, so losing the initial 
megacredit isn't a problem.  Must have done something good.

This also means that the TAS has to find some way to earn six and a 
half percent interest on that million to pay for the tickets at full  
face value.  They can get some more money from service fees at the
hostels, of course, but those always seemed to be near-cost.  Also,
it appears that the TAS keeps the initial megacredit even after the
member has died, so these monies might be used to make it easier for
the TAS to keep within budget.  Perhaps the Imperial government, via
the Ministry of Transportation, sells the passes at bulk rate to the
Society -- part of the Imperium's mission has always been to foster
interstellar tourism and travel....

In any case, I wouldn't consider that it unbalances anything.  
Remember, some players come out of character generation with starships 
worth tens of millions of credits -- a single megacredit pales next to
that.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu> 
 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #476
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Traveller-digest          Tuesday, 1 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 477

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Babes in Space
         2. Re: T4 artwork
         3. Re: TNE --> T4 Damage
         4. RE: Add ons for t4
         5. T4/T1-3 incompatibility & copyright concerns
         6. Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills
         7. Re: Add ons for t4
         8. Archeans and more
         9. RE: Add ons for t4
        10. Re: Add ons for t4
        11. Psionics in Year 0
        12. Technical School Education
        13. Re: Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed
        14. Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills
        15. Psionic Supressions and Hivers?!!?
        16. Re: My T4 review/rant... (long)
        17. Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills
        18. Re: Roll them Bones!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 17:23:16 -0400
Subject: Babes in Space

        I think it's good that Traveller isn't going down the exploitative
path that White Wolf and other game companies have tread. maybe I'm somewhat
sensitive to this because out of the 7 people in my regular gaming group, 3
are female, 1 of which is my wife. (her name appears above). I just think
that everyone is due some basic respect. HOWEVER...
        ...sex is a topic of discussion everytime we play. If it isn't us
joking about it. it's one of the characters looking for it...or getting
it...or NOT getting it, which can be funnier. We're all adults; if there
were younger kids playing, we obviously wouldn't be engaging in this sort of
hilarity.
        The key word used here is GRATUITOUS. If sex or violence for that
matter occurs at a far greater frequency than in real life (or even in say a
classic adventure novel), with little or no negative consequences for those
engaging in it, then it's gratuitous. It seems to me that IG is taking a
stand on what they'll publish. You won't see anything like "Clanbook;
Nosferatu" in Traveller. (if you know that book, you know what I mean.)
        What we do in our own campaigns is a matter of our own taste and values.
                                                Allen

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 17:29:10 +0000
Subject: Re: T4 artwork

Mark Urbin wrote:
> One more thing about T4 artwork.  When the second printing comes out,
> the page with the weapons illustrations really, really should be
> replaced.  The weapons, as drawn, are only useful as clubs to beat the
> artist over the head with...

I was about to say the same thing PLUS
Did you notice...
that the SMG tapers to about 3mm?
the hilt of the broadsword is melting?
the basket on the foil would break your wrist?
that several of the weapons have larger muzzles than breech size would seem to imply?
the rifle muzzle flares?
there is no barrel exit on the staple gun?
and lastly, the body pistol barrel droops at the end?

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 17:30:47 +0000
Subject: Re: TNE --> T4 Damage

Brad Urwiller wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure if my message got through so here it is again.  I recently
> recieved my copy of T4 and I like what I see.  (Standing ovation) ....
> Anyway, does anyone know how to convert the damage values from personal
> weapons in TNE or FFS for that matter into the values used in T4?  Thanks
> for any help in advance.

I got the following from Mr Porter (Greg that is)

3G^3 damage values are based on energy in Joules, and is:
square root of: Energy(J) * .735/(beam or projectile diameter in cm)
T4 penetration is 3G^3 damage value^.43-1
DV^.43-1, round down

------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 14:24:39 -0700
Subject: RE: Add ons for t4

Moin Darryl Adams said	Sorry : THIS IS A FLAME !

	please dont post mime here, even quoted-printable is nearly
	unreadable, BASE64 is junk.

Why should your limitations effect the rest of us?

keepin' the flame!


------------------------------

From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 14:33:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: T4/T1-3 incompatibility & copyright concerns

E.Watters@queens-belfast.ac.uk wrote:
> My first problem with T4 was that it didn't match up with previous
> products - DGP material and the Atlas of the Imperium. As I'd spent
> quite a lot of money purchasing old traveller material I was quite
> annoyed. The old material was of very good quality, had a lot of
> material to start adventures with, and IG decides to create their
> own Core Subsector. Will they redraw the rest of the Imperium? Will
> they make the rest of my Traveller collection obsolete? 

Joe Walsh responds:
> I'm not from Imperium Games (obviously..grin), but I do recall their 
> answer to this aspect.  You're free to use whatever materials you want 
> with T4 - CT era, MT era, or Virus era - and from any publisher - GDW, 
> DGP, Paranoia Press, whatever - but if you choose to use IG stuff, you'll 
> be assured of support.
> Meaning...they may change some things here and there, and there is no 
> guarantee that their new products will support the old products' view of 
> things.  But nothing is stopping you from using the old products.

I find it sort of odd that they didn't make any attempt to match the
old material. It is a very curious decision on their part. Clearly, they
must have had access to this material. I'm sure GDW got a copy of everything
that DGP ever put out for Traveller, and when the rights transferred to
Marc Miller, it would only make sense that he'd be the person to get the
huge pile-o-stuff that must have been piling-up in their library.

I'm wondering if, after the terror of the GDW/T$R lawsuit concerning
Dangerous Journys, Marc Miller & IG didn't decide to abandon from the
"Canon" everything produced by a third-party (such as DGP) simply as
a means of self-protection from future legal tricks. After all, if my
facts on this are correct, IG doesn't own the old DGP material. Hence,
they might feel obliged to render all this material (which was quite
good, IMHO) non-official.

I'm not saying that this is IG's or Marc Miller's mindset, but it would
explain their actions to some degree, particularly if it turns out that
the CT/MT "Atlas" was based on DGP-generated UWP data which might well
have been the case. I've recently been asking Miller about his copyright
policy, particularly as concerns sector data. His response:

> Our plan for Milieu Zero is to produce an Atlas with locations but no data
> for most of the universe. Players / referees would fill in as they adventure
> / map. Necessarily, the details of each world would be different for each
> group's campaign. We would define some places (the Core region, the Vland
> region, the Sol region, and a few others) but not "canonize" other specific
> world data.

My reply:
> Sounds good. Of course, plans are known to change. Therefore, on the
> off-chance that people find lots of official sector data which they want
> to enter into Galactic and other sector-mapping freeware, are they allowed
> to do so? In short, is it permissible to redistribute "official" sector
> data (regardless of milieu) so long as it is done free of charge and so
> long as the source is acknowledged?

Marc Miller hasn't yet replied to me. I don't know if he's too busy or if
it's something else. The bottom line for myself, however, is that any RPG
that doesn't allow fans to share their own game-related material isn't worth
sinking money (much less time) into. I would be nice if IG would keep the
T4 universe compatible with previous editions of the official setting,
however, it's small-beans compared to the issue over whether or not they
will give fans like us the rights to share in the setting by sharing our
own world write-ups, character write-ups, adventures, starship designs,
etc., all (preferably) in the context of the official setting (which is
the reason behind my question concerning free-use of sector data). This
is the question that, in my mind at least, is _most_ pressing. It is a
question that we should get answered as soon as possible, so that we'll
know exactly where IG and Marc Miller stand when it comes to us, the
game's fans.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant. Other opinions would be most welcome.

jimv@empirenet.com


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 21:32:03 GMT
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:18:35 -0700, David Joseph Smart wrote:

> IMHO, you right on the money. In campaigns I've ref'd I've always let
> "role-playing" override "roll-playing"...for the most part. If players
> try to rebuild a quantum computer from bailing wire and spit while
> spouting off Einstein's General Relativity proofs, I let them *unless* 
> the *character* doing this has an Int/Edu equal to that of an amoeba. 
> At that point, it's obvious that "role-playing" has come to an end and
> it's time to force some stat-based rolls.

!?!  What a strange place to draw the line  :-)

I would draw the line far before this.  I've played in games like this
where the player's role-playing skills and REAL LIFE knowledge were used
pretty much exclusively (the character sheets acted more like a
"background" for the character as opposed to the limits of his or her
abilities).  This also meant that the characters in one campaign seemed
more-or-less identical to ones in previous campaigns because all of the
*players* were the same (even though the character sheets stated
otherwise).


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 16:42:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Add ons for t4

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:33:27 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Re: Add ons for t4
>
>On Tue, 1 Oct 1996 mchildre@pcshs.com wrote:
>
>> On a brief glance it looked cool to me.  Joe, on your questions about
tech schools, most 
>> of them focus on the tech and a lot less on the general ed stuff.  Not
much need for oil 
>> painting classes at an engineering school ya know.
>
>So, you would agree that +1 edu per year in a technical school is too 
>much?  I'd say just add the skills, and leave Edu alone...or, perhaps add 
>+1 edu for 3 years.  What do you think?

Well, I didn't see the originals, they were all gobble-de-gook on this end,
but I do know that many many tech schools are only 2 year degrees.  Maybe
this would help limit the Edu stuff.


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 17:47:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Archeans and more

Hi.

>From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
>Date: 01 Oct 96 18:55:46 +1000
>Subject: The Archaean Thesis (longish)

>     *THE ARCHAEAN THESIS*
     
	I loved this post! It strikes right to the core of one of my
favorite Traveller-related pasttimes --- thinking about the future
history of the Traveller Universe! And, incidently, coming up with
models that can explain the published "data."

>     Background reading: anything by Erich von Daniken ;] 

Love it! A beautiful spoof.
     
>     Discussion? Comments? Even flames are welcome these days...

Well, you asked for it (he said, hefting his flame thrower...) so here
goes...			8^)

Some weak points in your scenario:

1) The Solomani Hypothosis postulated that Humaniti originated on Terra, and
that they were scattered about known space by a technological power called
the 'Ancients' about whom nothing was known. It wasn't discovered that
the Ancients and Droyne were the same until 1107 or so (by player
characters going on the adventure "Twilight's Peak"), five centuries
after the Solomani Hypothosis was proven.

Before the Solomani Hypothesis, it wasn't clear where Humaniti's
homeworld was, or how they got scattered about known space. Every human
race had at least one (often chauvinistic) theory about its origins.
(The Archaean Thesis is a beautiful example of one, but there were
probably at least 40 other theses much like it --- one for each race.)

It wasn't until Terra joined the Imperium in the 7th or 8th century,
that Devroe's hypothesis was proven. 

2) There was no big push on the emperor's part to reach Terra. Heck, the
empire reached the Spinward Marches 60 years after its founding. During
this time it virtually ignored its rimward frontier. Obviously, the
Solomani Hypothesis did not loom very large in the minds of the
governing class.

		
Actually, I have my own model to explain point #2. You didn't ask to
hear it, but here goes anyway... 8^)

Cleon was so obsessed with pushing spinward because according to the
information of his archeologists and his IISS, the Spinward Marches were
the statistical center of the distribution of Ancient sites. He guessed
(correctly, as it turns out) that the Marches contained the Ancients'
homeworld. And he wanted to reach them before the perfidious Zhodani
did. 

Why was he so impressed with Ancient sites? Perhaps he had some secret
Ancient technology that helped him gain or hold power. And he needed
more, MORE! Bwahahahahaha.

At any rate, the rimward frontier was (as far as I can tell) pretty much
ignored. (This impression of mine was recently reinforced when I saw T4
with its map of Core subsector in the back. Cleon wasn't exactly gung ho
for looking rimward!) This unconcern for Terra lasted until the royal
family, with its characteristic disregard for Solomani sensibilities,
sanctioned the marriage of Emperor Zhakirov to  a /Vilani/ woman.
<Hisssss>

After that, the Solomani nobility, in an attempt to hold power against a
rising Vilani tide, began pushing for Terra, and promoting Devroe's
Solomani Hypothesis as a rationale for keeping control of the reins of
government. This political movement culminated with the creation of the
Solomani Autonomous Region in the 9th - 10th centuries. But that's
another story...

I don't know who people guessed the Ancients were. I suppose some
Solomani extremists may have thought that /they/ were the Ancients.
At least until 1107, when they would have been proven wrong at
Twilight's Peak. (Assuming the PC's were successful, of course. 8^)

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 15:13:50 -0700
Subject: RE: Add ons for t4

There are plenty of translators available out on the net to decode this stuff.  I used 
Wincode & it did it quite nicely(?).

Matt

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 18:33:10 +0000
Subject: Re: Add ons for t4

Mark Ayers wrote:
> 
> Moin Darryl Adams said  Sorry : THIS IS A FLAME !
> 
>         please dont post mime here, even quoted-printable is nearly
>         unreadable, BASE64 is junk.
> 
> Why should your limitations effect the rest of us?
> 
> keepin' the flame!

Huzzah!

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 15:32:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Psionics in Year 0

Thus spake aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton):

> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #466

Wait-- didn't we already agree that such "subjects" were a Bad Thing?
 
>      Reading ahead since my last post, I happened to notice that, while 
> the intro to the Psionics chapter specifically mentions that Psionics 
> are socially accepted in the early 3I, finding a Psionics Institute is 
> just as hard as in the 1100s.  Considering that we all (well, most of 
> us) know all about the Psionic Supressions and the [Hiver-type 
> Manipulation, I can't think of the specific word] therein, I began to 
> wonder.  Is the book implying that the Supressions weren't as big a deal 
> as we've been previously led to believe, and that psionic study was 
> never very common or socially acceptable, or is this just another case 
> of game-balance-concerns combined with sloppy editing? >>

The Psionic Suppressions were basically a failed psychohistory experiment 
aimed at actually fostering greater acceptance of psionics.  The result 
of this experiment was the equating of psionics with Zhodani influence.  
Since there are likely very few people in the Third Imperium in Year 0 
who could tell you who/what a Zhodani is, this isn't much of a problem.  
The state of psionics before the Suppressions was pretty much as is 
described in T4 -- socially accepted, but somewhat rare; there just 
aren't that many psionics in Year 0, since it's only been a teachable, 
learnable science for a couple of centuries at this point.

The T4 editors weren't sloppy -- it's just that the Suppressions aren't 
going to occur for another eight centuries or so.
      
> Perhaps, in the early 3I, psionics were still not well understood. There 
> was little organisation between Institutes, and not enough demand and/or 
> money for a large number of them. As time passes, they will become more 
> common, peaking immediately before the Suppressions (when was that, 
> about 600?), at which point the numbers will rapidly drop off again.

That's more or less exactly what happened prior to the 800s, near as I 
can recall.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 01 Oct 1996 19:11:34 GMT
Subject: Technical School Education

When I taught at a technical school eight years ago, it did not provide the
same level of general education as a college/university.  In fact, most
programs contained very little that didn't relate directly to the trade being
taught (whether it was hairdressing - excuse me cosmetology - or computer
technician).

However, in Europe a "technical school" is on par with a Canadian/US College
of Engineering.

So, I'd say that a technical school, as generally understood in the US,
doesn't give boosts to education.  Now, if a referee decides to call a
technical university degree a "diploma" from a "technical school", that's a
different matter.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 01 Oct 1996 19:14:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed

>I was thinking of adding an area to my web page (Ants, that is) with
>step by step mold making instructions for people without bell jars
>etc..  Would anybody be interested in this?

YES!!!

Uh, where is your Web page?

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 23:27:46 GMT
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:27:27 -0500 (CDT), Joe Walsh wrote:

> But specifically in _my_ campaigns, role-playing tends to come into 
> account in the overall planning areas, while roll-playing tends to 
> resolve the individual tasks.  For instance, rather than making a 
> task roll when a character is supposed to come up with a plan for 
> infiltrating a secure building, the player will come up with the plan.  
> The execution of that plan, however, will involve some task resolution 
> (whacking the gaurd on the head to knock him out; picking the lock; 
> disabling the electronic security system).  Such task resolutions are 
> only rarely influenced by role-play in our games.  The execution of the 
> plan will, of course, also involve role-playing of other aspects.  :)  
> I'm having a hard time nailing down exactly when each method is used, and 
> when a combination is used, though.  Hmmm.  I just do "what feels right." :)

I have to agree with Joe on this one.  Role-playing isn't meant to be
competitive like professional sports, so one player shouldn't necessarily
have a better chance at a specific task than another (when skill levels and
target numbers are the same), unless it specifically involves problem
solving.  I sometimes have problems with players that don't really know the
true definition of roleplaying ("acting in character" and not "acting as
YOURSELF acting in character") and try to use their own knowledge instead
of that of their characters.  Just last weekend, one player tried to use
his vast knowledge of concrete (strengths, weaknesses, etc.) to determine
how his character would breach a wall.  Or my personal favourite: a player
claiming that his character's willpower stat is at human maximum so they
*should* be able to naw off their own wrists to get out of a set of
handcuffs.  This type of behaviour is probably one of the hardest skills to
master as a roleplayer.  Try having your male players roleplay female
characters to the point that your female players find their performances
realistic.  Try playing a character with split-personality disorder and
keep the relative knowledge of each personality seperate.

ROLE-playing should reward creative thinking as long as it is within the
capabilities of the actual characters involved (eg: is the character
statistically intelligent enough to even come up with the player's plan?).
This also includes simple things like disallowing a player's knowledge of
the formula for gunpowder in a fantasy setting, even though the ingredients
may be readily available.

ROLL-playing should be fun and not favour anyone in particular, just
because one person's acting skills are better than another (eg: don't keep
insisting that every character of a particular player be the group's voice
in order to gain die modifiers, just because that player happens to have
good conversational skills).

------------------------------

From: Mark Fletcher <mf1@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 00:50:35 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Psionic Supressions and Hivers?!!?

> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #466
> 
> In-Reply-To: <9609291514.AA21932@NS.MPGN.COM>
> 
> << From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
> Subject: More T4 Qs/Obs
> 
>      Reading ahead since my last post, I happened to notice that, while 
> the intro to the Psionics chapter specifically mentions that Psionics 
> are socially accepted in the early 3I, finding a Psionics Institute is 
> just as hard as in the 1100s.  Considering that we all (well, most of 
> us) know all about the Psionic Supressions and the [Hiver-type 
> Manipulation, I can't think of the specific word] therein, I began to 
> wonder.  Is the book implying that the Supressions weren't as big a deal 
> as we've been previously led to believe, and that psionic study was 
> never very common or socially acceptable, or is this just another case 
> of game-balance-concerns combined with sloppy editing? >>

Sorry, maybe I missed something, but where did the Hivers have an
involvement with the psionic supressions? I always thought it was the
Zhodani, but maybe I missed something... ?

Very Interested (cause I never read Ithlkur + Hiver)

Mark Fletcher


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 18:56:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: My T4 review/rant... (long)

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Thomas Biskup wrote:

> Hmmm... if this is so, I have to take back my complaint.  The right colun 
> on page 57 of the rulebook ('The Effects of Wounds') seems to be a bit 
> unclear to me:
> 
> >>Wound points are applied to ... physical characteristics. _Each die_
> rolled is taken as a _single wound or group of wounds_. ... Normally, the 
> player of the wounded character may decide which ... characteristic 
> receives a specific die of wound points ... The execption is the _first 
> wound_ received ... The damage points of this first wound are all applid 
> to a single ... characteristic determined randomly.<<
> 
> The parts enclosed in _..._ made me think that this just referred to the 
> first wound die (wasn't it handled this way in CT or is my memory 
> failing?).  Your explanation sounds more reasonable anyway.  I'll 
> definitely use it that way.  Thanks.

That particular section was taken verbatim from the Wounding and Death 
section of The Traveller Book (and, for that matter, from Book 1: 
Characters and Combat).  So, I just went with what I'd always assumed it 
meant.  Maybe I've been wrong all these years...

Granted, it is poorly worded.  But, to me, it doesn't make sense any other 
way.  That "the exception is the first wound received" portion doesn't 
make sense unless it is referring to the entire total of all damage dice 
rolled for the initial hit.  If it's just referring to one die (as it 
appears to be since it uses the term "wound" as it does above to refer to 
a single die's value), then there's not much of an effect from the first 
hit. Big deal - one die is randomly applied.  

So, while you are definitely correct that it is poorly worded, I've 
played it the other way because that is how I've interpreted it all these 
years.

Was I wrong?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 19:08:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, James Lindsay wrote:

[example snipped]
> I would draw the line far before this.  I've played in games like this
> where the player's role-playing skills and REAL LIFE knowledge were used
> pretty much exclusively (the character sheets acted more like a
> "background" for the character as opposed to the limits of his or her
> abilities).  This also meant that the characters in one campaign seemed
> more-or-less identical to ones in previous campaigns because all of the
> *players* were the same (even though the character sheets stated
> otherwise).

James,

I agree with what you are saying, and I'd like to add to that, if I may.  

Judging where to draw the line is definitely a balancing act.  On the one 
extreme, you have players who (as you note) are just "acting" the role of 
themselves w/ perhaps a bit of imaginary background thrown in.  On the 
other extreme, you have a bunch of statistics and a bunch of die rolling.

Ideally, every role-player would be a superlative actor.  Since this 
isn't the case, we have to make compromises.  Your've probably found a 
really good balance for your group, as have I for mine.  And, as has been 
said before, as long as folks are having fun, it doesn't matter where 
they draw the line on such things.

But, I would highly recommend that everyone at least /try/ the method of 
acting in character - pretending to know only what your character would 
know, pretending to have the mental limitations of the character, etc.  I 
also strongly recommend trying out different roles, rather than sticking 
to one or two standard personality "boilerplates," as we've all probably 
done at one time or another.

If the role is played right, you can do away with a lot of die rolling.  
If not, you either end up with poorly portrayed characters, or a whole 
lotta die rolling and little role-play.

Is that similar to what you have found, James?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 19:36:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Roll them Bones!

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Hey!  You do that too?  <g> Not only do I randomly roll dice, I'll also
> check my notes, for no reason other than to keep the players paranoid..

Yes!  This is what /I/ mean by "Referees should be sadistic."  Not that 
we should be "out to get" the PC's (unless one is playing Cthulu or 
Paranoia, that is[G]), but that one should keep them appropriately "on 
the edge" by such tactics as you described in your example (which I 
deleted for brevity).


> Keep in mind I also will throw in little "red herrings" from some of these
> rolls too.  I generally throw a handful of dice, but I'll have a couple of
> dice that I look for (a couple of reds in a handful of whites, or the old
> off white and the small red, or the two that land furtherest left)..decided
> on the spot, and if I get snake-eyes something might have happened.
> 
> At that point I'll make something up to fit what's going on...
> 
> The PCs were sneaking through a mansion looking for a kidnapped boy, "You
> hear a muffled crash from behind that door.", (it was a cat).

Hehehehe.  Oh, yes!  Perfect!


> Joe, a PC, always kept the radio on while in Jump Space, he said the white
> noise was soothing. Then one day while a couple of PC's were on the
> bridge..."Through the static on the radio you pick up a signal for a few
> seconds and then it's gone."  (had them franticly trying to reacquire that
> impossible signal, they never did..I played that one dead serious.  They
> argued that it was impossible, I shruged my shoulders and said *you* heard
> it, make of it what you will.  They eventually gave up trying to find the
> signal and accused me of a setup, I said "Can't say.", and knowing how
> devious a GM I am they were left with a shadow of a doubt..exactly what I
> wanted.  This one also made an interesting bar story at their next
> port..got Joe several free beers out of it...and this bunch *always* leaves
> the radio on while in Jump Space now. <g>).

Nice work. :)   Such things make the game a lot more interesting, IMO.  
They add depth.  The story itself may be riveting, but it still benefits 
from such side-lights.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 2 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 478

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: What We Need
         2. Re: Add ons for t4
         3. Re: What We Need (longish, ranting)
         4. Re: T4/T1-3 incompatibility & copyright concerns
         5. Re: Technical School Education
         6. Re: Roll them Bones!
         7. Re: T4 artwork
         8. RE: Add ons for t4
         9. FFS questions. Any gurus out there?
        10. Re: Homebrew T4 Attack DM Reference
        11. Re: Singed hardbacks
        12. Re: Re: Re: Modeling advice needed
        13. Re: Roll them Bones!
        14. Re: T4 artwork
        15. Re: What We Need
        16. Re: What We Need (longish, ranting)
        17. Re: Naval Bases
        18. Re: What We Need (longish, ranting)
        19. Re: What We Need (longish, ranting)
        20. Sundry
        21. Re: Psionic Supressions and Hivers?!!?
        22. Re: The Poor Steward
        23. Re: Big computers and little machines..

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 19:46:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: What We Need

On 1 Oct 1996, Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus wrote:

[snip]
>   This product is quite clearly aimed at people who already know what
> they are buying.
> 
>   Having established that, though, I'm not necessarily saying it is a bad thing.
> If you look at it a bit deeper you might conclude that it is the _only_ thing.
> Many of your suggestions, Michael, about "What We Need" are prefectly
> good and correct. However, they all require one thing: money.
>   Can you imagine the difficulty Imperium Games must have had in raising
> the venture capitol for this? The games industry is in a state of decline.
> The previous publishers of this work couldn't sell enough and went out of
> business. I wouldn't have touched it!

I would!  But I'd want quite a bit o' control for my money. ;)

>   If this is an accurate reading then it isn't surprising that their first 
> actions are to
> get out something with minimal cost that they know will sell a fixed number.
> This bootstraps their cash-flow and gives enough to fund other projects.
> I'd say their first year's worth of projects will be in this line. At the end 
> of it
> they will have either made enough "legacy" money or else impressed their
> investors enough to begin to do riskier things like advertising. (Seriously,

Well, heck, if Marc or Ken is willing to sell some stock, I'll buy...as 
long as its voting stock. :)


> have you seen a single T4 ad? Reviews, yes. Ads, no. Ads cost money.)

Not yet...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 19:54:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Add ons for t4

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996 mchildre@pcshs.com wrote:

> Joe,
> 	I guess that would depend on your interpretation of what EDU represents as a 
> characteristic.  I mean what effect would adding a +1 EDU do to the character in your 
> campaign?  If it isn't a big deal one way or the other then...what's the problem?  If 
> it's general knowledge that EDU represents then I would change it to an additional skill 
> than a +1 after 3 years.

Matt,

True, that would be a factor.  But more than that, I'm concerned with 
achieving a bit of balance between Tech/Trade school and 4-year college.  
Tech school is, as far as I know, a place where one learns job skills, 
not general education material.  This fits nicely into the T4 system IMO, 
if Tech schools perhaps provide 2 skills per year, and no Edu bonus.  It 
will help to differentiate those who go to Trade/Tech school and those 
who go to college.

At least, that's the way I see it.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 19:55:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: What We Need (longish, ranting)

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Cmdr Hold'Em wrote:

> What is ad is that this version of Traveller will probably put out a few books, then die..
> I know Traveller has its fans BUT so does everybody else, and everybody else is doing 
> things differently (ie promoting in the near mainstream)
> Traveller is the greatest RPG, regardless of system (CT, MT, TNE, T4) but it just is not 
> depraved enough for current roleplayers in general

(Raising glass) Here's to hoping you're dead wrong about the fate of T4. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 19:59:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4/T1-3 incompatibility & copyright concerns

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Jim Vassilakos wrote:

[Lots o' snippage]
> I'm wondering if, after the terror of the GDW/T$R lawsuit concerning
> Dangerous Journys, Marc Miller & IG didn't decide to abandon from the
> "Canon" everything produced by a third-party (such as DGP) simply as
> a means of self-protection from future legal tricks. After all, if my
> facts on this are correct, IG doesn't own the old DGP material. Hence,
> they might feel obliged to render all this material (which was quite
> good, IMHO) non-official.

Jim, that's the best theory I've heard so far.  It makes a lot of sense.  
Hmmmm.  Until IG tells us otherwise, that's what I'm going to assume.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 20:00:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Technical School Education

On 1 Oct 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> When I taught at a technical school eight years ago, it did not provide the
> same level of general education as a college/university.  In fact, most
> programs contained very little that didn't relate directly to the trade being
> taught (whether it was hairdressing - excuse me cosmetology - or computer
> technician).
> 
> However, in Europe a "technical school" is on par with a Canadian/US College
> of Engineering.

Ahhh..that would explain it!  Thanks for the clarification, Rob!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 21:17:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Roll them Bones!

I use (clatter, clatter) alot in my PBEM game, sometimes its really a
roll, sometimes it may not be...who is to know ? ;)

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 21:02:48 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 artwork

>> One more thing about T4 artwork.  When the second printing comes out,
>> the page with the weapons illustrations really, really should be
>> replaced.  The weapons, as drawn, are only useful as clubs to beat the
>> artist over the head with...

>I was about to say the same thing PLUS
>Did you notice...
>that the SMG tapers to about 3mm?
>the hilt of the broadsword is melting?
>the basket on the foil would break your wrist?

<snip>

YESSSS!

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE...

...replace this and the page with the circa-1950's vehicle art!

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!

AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!!!!!!!

This is the BEST idea that's come up in a LONG time. And there've been some
*great* ideas on this list.

John Kovalic




********************************************************
           "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --
*
*              MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
*
********************************************************




------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 22:30:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Add ons for t4

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Mark Ayers wrote:

> Moin Darryl Adams said	Sorry : THIS IS A FLAME !
> 
> 	please dont post mime here, even quoted-printable is nearly
> 	unreadable, BASE64 is junk.
> 
> Why should your limitations effect the rest of us?
> 
> keepin' the flame!

   Better wear the nomex then...

   Base64 *IS* junk. Save it for file-attaches to Windoze junkies that
care.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: "David Murray" <DRM13@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 21:32:47 -0500
Subject: FFS questions. Any gurus out there?

I've been working on some TL 17+ designs lately and I have a good question.

If you supply enough power can you eliminate the need for HPGs in each
weapon design?  I know that HPGs must be in the design somewhere, to handle
black globe power etc.  But at these TLs it takes more volume to store
energy in an HPG than it does to generate the same amount of power.

Along the same lines why do Jump drives require std 'fuel'.  A jump engine
just turns that fuel into energy to make a jump.  Why can't you provide
that energy by other means?

Thanks for any help.
______________________________
Dave Murray
DRM13@worldnet.att.net

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 21:47:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Homebrew T4 Attack DM Reference

James Garriss wrote:
> >So here's my reference sheet. Of the Special Pools, I have only included
> >Fatigue. (I didn't like the way the rest had been implemented.) Add 'em if
> >you use 'em.
> >
> >I've also thrown together a handy Movement/Action Options list for the
> >players to use, which is included at the bottom. Always good to know what
> >your options are.
> 
> Glenn (or anyone else), any interest in having me html these up and place
> them on the web page next to the armor?
> 

Yes! Please!

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 21:49:12 -0700
Subject: Re: Singed hardbacks

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> Did anyone else receive a singed hardback 3 weeks early? Was it because
> they partially burned up on atmospheric re-entry?
> 
Misjumps can be hell. :)

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 01 Oct 1996 22:58:57 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Modeling advice needed

>> Someone mentioned they were trying to model a swarm of ants. . .  Just go
>> down to your local hobby/toy/novelty shop and by some plastic ants.  For a
>> couple of bucks you can get hundreds of them.
>
>Yeah, but they're ant-sized in 1:1 scale, not in 25mm scale!  Those
>plastic ants are about a meter long in 25mm.

True, but they _would_ work for giant ants, which would be OK in Space 1889
if not Traveller.  (Come to that, I've got plans somewhere for ant-like
critters with proper lungs and all, suitable for frightening adventurers
with.)

Only problem is, I've never seen any (plastic ants).  Didn't know they made
them.  Have to start digging around.  The local hobby shops not having any,
and same with Toys-R-Us, guess I'll have to find a novelty shop.  Time for
the yellow pages...

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 23:25:00 +0000
Subject: Re: Roll them Bones!

Tom Ellis wrote:
> I use (clatter, clatter) alot in my PBEM game, sometimes its really a
> roll, sometimes it may not be...who is to know ? ;)

What do you do?
Send a message of "rattle rattle rattle...clunk clunk clunk...hmmmm"?

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 22:18:25 -0700
Subject: Re: T4 artwork

>> One more thing about T4 artwork.  When the second printing comes out,
>> the page with the weapons illustrations really, really should be
>> replaced.  The weapons, as drawn, are only useful as clubs to beat the
>> artist over the head with...
> 
>I was about to say the same thing PLUS
>Did you notice...
>that the SMG tapers to about 3mm?
>the hilt of the broadsword is melting?
>the basket on the foil would break your wrist?

'sigh'...yes. IMO, the illus. of the ATV is a little too "bent". Hate to
hit a decent bump in it.

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 23:29:56 +0000
Subject: Re: What We Need

Traveller is nowhere to be seen.
I only got my copy because I made my regular store aware of it, no body else in this 
game-forsaken city has even heard of it

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 23:32:05 +0000
Subject: Re: What We Need (longish, ranting)

Joe Walsh wrote:

> (Raising glass) Here's to hoping you're dead wrong about the fate of T4. :)

I had trouble even convincing one game store it even "might" exist and had to special 
order from my regular store (he does this only for his regular customers, so there won't 
be multiple copies of T4 unless he has solid proof that it will sell)

------------------------------

From: Ed Dowgiallo <edowgial@prolog.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 23:22:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

Anyone familiar with a Judge's Guild Traveller supplement called "50 
Starbases"?

------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 23:53:54 -0400
Subject: Re: What We Need (longish, ranting)

I agree completely wrt poster and pamphlet.  This sounds a bit like
instructions to a *pusher*, but WE can help, too (if we agree that T4 is
cool, happening, and the future of Traveller), by running games and
convincing our gamers that T4 is, at $25, a bargain (certain TML comments
notwithstanding).  We, the confirmed junkies, will (and did) buy it.  New
blood has to spend money on it for it to succeed, which is where we come in
- - as prostlytes (sp?) and (shudder) salespeople.  - Bill

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 22:59:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: What We Need (longish, ranting)

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Cmdr Hold'Em wrote:

> Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> > (Raising glass) Here's to hoping you're dead wrong about the fate of T4. :)
> 
> I had trouble even convincing one game store it even "might" exist and had to special 
> order from my regular store (he does this only for his regular customers, so there won't 
> be multiple copies of T4 unless he has solid proof that it will sell)

I had a similar experience where I live.  Nonetheless, I feel that the 
sell-out of T4 (and the way the Armory was caught flat-footed after 
having only ordered a couple of dozen of the things when their customers 
(retail stores for whom they act as distributor) ended up demanding far, far 
more) will generate more awareness of the product.  Something that sells 
out that quickly is bound to generate some discussion among retailers and 
distributors.

Or so my theory goes. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Wed,  2 Oct 96 01:56:00 GMT 
Subject: Sundry

Boyd:

> At any rate, I'm glad we on TML don't get into lengthy discussions
> about proper grammer, spelling and diction, no matter what
> colours...uh, colors we fly...

Uh...that's G-R-A-M-M-A-R, Boyd... : )

<sorry...I couldn't resist>

Bill Rutherford

> I talked with a fellow at RAFM (I didn't get his name) today (9/27)
> and was advised that the Citadel 15mm Traveller figs were,
> basically, a dead issue when I ordered them in August 1989 - what
> they had was what was in stock at the time - and that the molds had
> *probably* been destroyed since then, just to get them out of the
> way,  though he wasn't 100% certain.

Most miniatures are cast in RTV molds, which are essentially
rubber...they wear out. At this point, the manufacturer has to decide
if it is worth making a new production mold or not (which costs
money).

Leonard:

> And just think of the screams when a character discovers that the
> combat chip has a "police override" that won't let them fight a
> cop.

Not to mention the override that prevents the chip user from
attacking the chip designer. Ghod...this presents all sorts of
interesting possibilities.

 :-)

> Is it realistic?  I really don't know.  But I like it this way. :)
> I think it's boring to have a combat consisting of more misses than
> hits.

Almost all RPG Combat systems have hit rates that are much too high.
Consider the various figures on the _thousands_ of rounds expended per
casualty in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc. There are cases of police
officers (in the heat of a gunfight) firing six rounds at less than 10
feet (!), and missing with all six. Anyway, all systems err on the "to
hit" side of the ledger...some more than others.

Rich Ostorero:

> That's one I agree with wholeheartedly, too. With a universe of
> adventure waiting for us in Milleu 0, who needs gratituous babes
> in skintight spacesuits?

Me! ME!

Wait...you mean gratuitous _drawings_ of babes in skintight
spacesuits...never mind -- I'll continue to "accidentally" tune in to
Babewatch while channel surfing...: )

         LKW


------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 21:54:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Psionic Supressions and Hivers?!!?

     The Hivers per se weren't involved in the Psionic Supressions, but, if
my memory serves me correctly, the PS were the first (and only) large-scale
Imperial attempt at Psychohistory, which, again, if memory serves me
correctly, is the same technique that the Hivers have mastered and used
against the K'kree; the technical term for large-term "manipulation".  I may
be off-base or misremembering things here, as all of this comes from the
MegaTraveller library data, which I haven't looked at in probably 4-5 years.

Trent Smith
P.S.  To those people who explained that Psionics probably hadn't become 
popular YET in Milieu 0:  good solution!  I can rest easy now and not feel
the need to assign any extra blame to IG's editors than what they REALLY 
deserve.

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 96 23:47:26 -0500
Subject: Re: The Poor Steward

On 10/01/96 at 12:02 AM,  Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> said:

>>Add a Steward or Service skill. You have to! <g>

>Aw, you're just mad cause you got busted!

No, I'm NOT!  <g> Besides, *I* didn't do anything.  I was just standing
there.  Can I help it if Clancy careless let me see the safe combination.
<g>

>I can't help it if the best thing I could think of to replace the
Steward Skill was Perception and Carousing.  :)

>Seriously though, I have thought that adding it to the Charisma Cascade
>would be an acceptable method, but I do think if you roll for skills it
>will leave Steward with a bit fewer entries than perhaps it should have.

To me Steward would combine such things as cooking, bartending, operating
and maintaining the cleaning equipment, providing for the entertainment of
the passengers, keeping an eye on things
(security), making sure life support is working and supplied,
stocking supplies for the ship, and on small ships usually handling gunnery
duties.

After the Engineer, the Steward (or Purser) is the most important crewman
on a passenger carrying ship..IMO. <g>

Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 01:22:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Big computers and little machines..

I said something about nano-electronics, to which
"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> replied:

>An attempt to kill two birds with one relativistic rock:
>
>What if Traveller computers are so large due to the fact that they have to
>be kept super-cooled for the nanobots inside them?  Figure to make a jump,
>the computer has to juggle two sets of equations involving 36-dimensional
>physics, the current state of the ship, and the price of tea on Vland for
>all I know!  One could also say that since exposure to j-space has driven
>people mad, there is an effect on the brain's delicate electrical field;
>from here, it is a short jump to say that such effects are devastating on
>ship's computers, and they must be shielded in some way, or risk computer
>failure.

Certainly plausible. The more powerful the computer, the bigger your
coolant system must be. In Drexler's _Foresight_ newsletter, I read a
speculative article which suggested it might be possible to construct a
desktop nanoputer that could, in theory at least, outperform all the human
brains on the planet combined. Problem is, it would need a coolant system
the size of a ten-storey building...

By the way, I suspect that much of this "huge Traveller computers" thread
is based on CT (and perhaps MT and TNE, which I never read). Has anyone
noticed that this problem seems to have "gone away" with T4? As far as I
can tell, in QSDS, there is no step in the design sequence for "Select
Computer Model".

Now I've been out of the loop for a while so correct me if I'm wrong, but
did computer model and mass simply get simplified out when they created
QSDS? Will the design system in _Starships_ once again include a selection
of computer models and masses?

As far as I can see, QSDS computers are assumed to be able to run just
about any software you can throw at them, so long as the programs are of
equal or lower Tech Level (pg 90), and their mass and cost is either too
small to count, or they're included in the mass and cost of the various
componants. In any case, there's no mention in T4 of the model or mass of
shipborne computers.

Wondering,

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
 "I see it now! Madness IS the way!" -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #478
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 2 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 479

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #474
         2. Re: Singed hardbacks
         3. Re: Add ons for t4
         4. Re: Add ons for t4
         5. Re: Technical School Education
         6. Tech Schools repost
         7. RE: The Archaean Thesis (longish)
         8. RE: T4: Another good set of inspirational novels
         9. A couple o' questions...
        10. RE: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues (Long)
        11. Naval Bases
        12. IG/T4 fundraising
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #470
        14. Re: Naval Bases
        15. Re: Roll them Bones!
        16. Re: Roll them Bones!
        17. [none]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 08:01:20 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #474

> Subject: The Archaean Thesis (longish)
> 
>      *THE ARCHAEAN THESIS*
      
>      The Archaean Thesis died out around the year 150, when its 
>      inconsistencies and contradictions became too glaring for even the 
>      Solomani to ignore any longer. 
      
  He he, my old character in the PBEM belived in it. Emotionally but not
intellectually:)

>      Background reading: anything by Erich von Daniken ;] 

  No, Da"niken's stuff clearly supports the Solomani hypothesis, ie
he thinks all that stuff was left by *alien* spacefarers (for example
the Ancients), not Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

  (My only beef with the Solomani hypothesis is indeed that it
would make Da"niken a visionary and not a kook:)

>      Discussion? Comments? Even flames are welcome these days...

  The Solomani hypothesis does *not* mention that the Ancients are the
Droyne. All it assumes is that they Ancients arn't Solomani or Geonee.

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 23:42:54 -0800
Subject: Re: Singed hardbacks

On  1 Oct 96 at 11:21, Joe Walsh spewed:

> I thought perhaps that was the cause, and also the reason they
> arrived at some locations three weeks early. :)

Nope, however, those books which arrived 3 weeks early ARE suffering 
from a terminal case of Jump sickness... :-)

Oh, BTW, most of the books which arrived 3 weeks early wound up at 
Barnard's Star instead... :-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 16:47:17 +1000
Subject: Re: Add ons for t4

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

> Your technical school idea is good, and it is definitely something that 
> most (all?) game systems overlook, yet which is very much a part of real 
> life.  

Thanks

> 
> I have one question, though - your system assumes that technical schools 
> yield the same Edu benefit as college, on a year-by-year basis.  Is this 
> correct?  Never having attended a technical school, I honestly don't know 
> if that is the amount that should be added.

I feel that EDU is a reflection of a) the ammount of education the 
character has, and b) the _effective_ education a character recieves. 
Technical schools represent workplace knowledge more usable than say a 
collage degree. If there is too much problems, make it +1 per 2 years.

> 
> I also liked the skills write-ups you did.  They will certainly come in 
> handy!
> 
Even CT (well Book 4) had combat engineering, and since I am planning 
"work gangs to the stars" campaign, I needed those skills and the Tech 
schools, so that the players have the minimal skills needed to get hired.

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 17:04:31 +1000
Subject: Re: Add ons for t4

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

> Matt,
> 
> True, that would be a factor.  But more than that, I'm concerned with 
> achieving a bit of balance between Tech/Trade school and 4-year college.  
> Tech school is, as far as I know, a place where one learns job skills, 
> not general education material.  This fits nicely into the T4 system IMO, 
> if Tech schools perhaps provide 2 skills per year, and no Edu bonus.  It 
> will help to differentiate those who go to Trade/Tech school and those 
> who go to college.

It could almost work, excpet that this makes Tech schools seem a lot more 
powerful than collages. Maybe if you did it this way

1 year : Skill only
2 years : Skill + a choice of +1 edu or second skill
3 years : 2 Skills and a choice of + 1 EDU or third skill

I does make it a bit of a pain, as i was looking at keeping it simple. 
Maybe +1 EDU per 2 years is a better choice after all. 

> 
> At least, that's the way I see it.
> 
> 
> -Joe

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 17:06:53 +1000
Subject: Re: Technical School Education

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

> On 1 Oct 1996, Rob Prior wrote:
> 
> > When I taught at a technical school eight years ago, it did not provide the
> > same level of general education as a college/university.  In fact, most
> > programs contained very little that didn't relate directly to the trade being
> > taught (whether it was hairdressing - excuse me cosmetology - or computer
> > technician).
> > 
> > However, in Europe a "technical school" is on par with a Canadian/US College
> > of Engineering.
> 
> Ahhh..that would explain it!  Thanks for the clarification, Rob!
> 
This is also the case down under, where you can get an associate diploma 
in most subjects (business, computing, accounting, engineering et al), as 
well as do apprenticships.



>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 17:20:08 +1000
Subject: Tech Schools repost

I will proberbly do this up as a HTML doc later, but for now, just a 
strait message.

BTW to the flammers :- Dont blame me if your mailer does not support 
MIME. Pine supports it, so who am i to argue.

rz
** 



------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 96 07:15:34 UT
Subject: RE: The Archaean Thesis (longish)

Michael Barry said:
>>>
     *THE ARCHAEAN THESIS*
<mega-snip>
     Discussion? Comments? Even flames are welcome these days...
<<<

I *like* it Barry!  One of the things that I have integrated within my 
Imperium is that there are numerous conflicting theories within the scientific 
community about such things as:
- - The Ancients
- - Origens and dispersion of humaniti
- - history of previous interstellar civilizations
- - et al
Furthermore, because of the conflicting theories, scientists and organizations 
can become somewhat factious at times.  This provides endless sources of 
adventure hooks and ideas.  Just because a bunch of fanatical bigots grab an 
idea and violently force its acceptance on others doesn't mean the idea isn't 
true.  But imagine the difficulty getting people to accept the truth once it 
is associated with some negative philosophy, movement or circumstances.

As old as the 3rd Imperium is, (or in the confusion during the Rule of Man) 
imagine how the many different threads of research and hypotheses become 
tangled and ideas take on more meaning to people than mere knowledge!  Imagine 
what kind of superstition would be promulgated over the centuries.  Oh, the 
possibilities are endless!  (Remember the good old days when nobody knew 
anything about the mysterious 'Ancients' and grandfather wasn't even heard 
of?)  Signal GK was a really great resource, but it made public knowledge the 
deepest secret of the GDW Imperium backdrop -- <sigh>.

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 96 06:49:45 UT
Subject: RE: T4: Another good set of inspirational novels

Joel Lovell said:

>>>I just finished reading David Feintuch's new science fiction series, and I
can't even begin to tell you just how good these stories were - I rate them
amoung one of the absolute _best_ reads I've had in years.  Just from
reading these books I felt the itch to run traveller.
MIDSHIPMAN'S HOPE
CHALLENGERS HOPE
PRISONER'S HOPE
FISHERMAN'S HOPE
<<<

While I've only read Prisoner's hope, I must agree that Feintuch is a 
compelling author.  One of the most outstanding things is his depiction of a 
toxically religious military man -- I had flashbacks of the rigidly structured 
religious services in the USMC -- I kept hoping the main character would run 
into a chaplain who would absolve him of his guilt!  A great read!

This was one of the factors that contributed my return to Traveller after 7+ 
years.  I thoroughly enjoyed the depth I was allowed to see into the character 
and his relationships.  If I ever include widespread organized religion in my 
Imperium, it would be because of Feintuch's influence.

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 96 06:57:28 UT
Subject: A couple o' questions...

Saw a couple of things that I didn't know...

What is DGP?
What is GDW-Beta?

				---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 96 08:35:57 UT
Subject: RE: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues (Long)

Rich Ostero Replied:

>I'm that kind of player: I like to make suggestions to the GM buried in the 
>character 
>background to develop detail-ey things the GM might not have had time to work 
out, and 
>let the GM take it (or leave it) from there. An example: for my military 
characters, I <snip>

You may come over and play any time, Rich...    :-)>

>> Yep, one of the guys wanted to work for a "house" (read: clan) and I gave a
>> concession allowing him to work for a mega-corp.  He wanted to have all 
these
>> special weapons and skills that, frankly, he wanted to lift right out of
>> Cyber-punk.  It's also difficult to play with folks that are constantly
>
>Especially if you let someone import a character concept. My worst offender 
>does this 
>with _anime_ characters all the time, and I'm forever telling him two things: 
>NO and HELL NO!

Oh, so you've already met this guy....   ;-)>

>> 
>> Those sorts of things just would fit in my Traveller backdrop.  Part of the
>> enjoyment is that there is no "cosmic" scale threats (except maybe
>> taxation--<g>).  That is why I've ignored activity on that scale since I
>> recieved the JTAS issue about the 5th Froniter War and all subsequent >> 
eventsafter that.
>
>I like playing with cosmic-scale threats after the players learn about the 
>universe a 
>little bit; in this we disagree. I think players like being, as an ad in the 
final ish 
>of _Challenge_ said, at the fulcrum of history.
>

I spose we aren't too far apart in this after all, it's just that I haven't 
had a consistant group of players long enough to _really_ learn about the 
universe.  As far as I'm concerned, the Zhodani would probably be the only 
cosmic-scale threat for the players in my 3rd Imperium setting: nothing like 
the virus; giant jump-space fish (ala Feintuch); no Gamalons(tm) or 
Cylons(tm); no omipotent 'Q' toying with the PCs; no Galactic 
Armageddon...etc.

My vision of the Imperium is a homogenous mix of struggles and secrets, wars 
and rumors of wars, and the constant struggle of masses upon masses of people. 
 History has many fulcrums.  The only cosmic-scale threat might be to the _way 
of life_ that allows the PCs to do what they do, again, such as the threat of 
Zhodani conquest -- but the *threat* of Zhodani aggression serves my purpose 
more than the actual realization of that threat.  

But whatever it is, the cosmic-scale threat should not undo my effort trying 
to convince the players that the Imperium and surrounding regions are really 
vast... and truly homogenous.   If a virus or berserker fleet (a la 
Saberhagen) is all over the place, then the "universe" may appear (to the 
players) to be pretty much the same all over, with the same enemy to fight, 
and it's size matters not (We've just got this job to do, and playing 
Traveller means "doing that job").  

The Imperium might then appear to be a only permutation of the "world" in a 
Fantasy RPG.  In FRPG, players all to often think it's the job of the ref to 
send adventure their way...  My goal is to create an Imperium so plausible, 
and so compelling, that the players will WANT to go out and explore it, or do 
business in it, or leech off it, or build something in it.  My reasons for 
being a member of TML stems directly from that; I want to glean as many ideas 
from others to add even more variety to my campaign.  (It's late, I hope all 
that came across clear and understandable).

					---Boyd



------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 02 Oct 96 19:13:15 +1000
Subject: Naval Bases

     I have always treated Naval Bases as *some kind of Naval 
     installation*, not a standard package that is placed in orbit around 
     every world marked N. 
     
     We do know that Naval bases are capable of refuelling, recrewing, 
     rearming and (maybe) repelling warships, but they may have a range of 
     capabilities. 
     
     A naval base could therefore be anything from: 
     
     1. a dirt-based facility at an E-class port, with a small office with 
     a base commander and a few technicians capable of refuelling and 
     overhauling some engine components. Defences? Handguns, perhaps some 
     automated antipersonnel lasers inside for security. 
     2. an orbital station (what many games/films would call a 'starbase')
     3. a training facility 
     4. an entire world (if low pop, asteroid, target range or the like)- 
     but only Naval Depots are system-wide
     5. a moon of a gas giant in the system (good means of defence, 
     especially if there is only one gas giant - but let's not open up that 
     discussion again) 
     6. a hidden facility, especially if close to enemy territory; possible 
     hiding places include asteroid belts, gas giant ring systems, hot 
     planets (eg Mercury), comets, rogue worlds/planetoids with highly 
     elliptical orbits, ...)
     7. a small office with a purchasing officer and a whole heap of 
     vouchers ("Okay guys, now you can get everything you need at the local 
     Quik-E-Port"). All services (refuelling, overhaul, refit etc) 
     contracted out to local port businesses, in exchange for Imperial 
     promissory notes. 
     
     One thing: a Naval Base is *not* a shipyard. The Imperium seems to 
     build most ships by contract to local shipyards. 

------------------------------

From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
Date: 02 Oct 96 19:13:40 +1000
Subject: IG/T4 fundraising

     Anybody got ideas for how our favourite company can raise more cash 
     (other than proofreading!)? Here's some to start: 
     
     1. Pre-orders: Imperium Games gives discounts plus various other 
     goodies for people who are willing to pay up-front for upcoming 
     supplements. Although this means buying products sight unseen, it will 
     give them a big incentive (and the resources) to produce and promote 
     the stuff. Encourage as many as possible to subscribe to the Journal 
     of the Travellers' Aid Society! These preorder clients would get 
     special benefits, such as having their supplements autographed by the 
     team and so on (heh heh heh, Marc Miller is going to have one HUGE 
     hand at the end of all this...)
     
     2. Land Grants: fans pay for the honour of having their own star 
     system (somewhere outside the canon-defined area). Fans can detail 
     their own star system within IG-defined rules (ie a certain time 
     limit, not to contain new major races etc etc), then submit it to IG 
     for amendment/approval. If all goes well and it doesn't break too many 
     rules/insult the sacred Canon, it would be included in a future 
     supplement. 
     
     2a. Same as for Land Grants, except the star systems, subsectors and 
     even (gasp!) some of the distant sectors are auctioned off. Note that 
     these could possibly go to organisations like HIWG or even TD. 
     
     3. Take cash off fans to have their characters (oh! already being 
     done), ship designs, alien races, included in the Canon somewhere. 
     
     4. A Map Club "Imperial Grand Survey". Special benefits for paid-up 
     members For example, *exclusive* nifty black starchart of Core sector 
     for members *only*; followed up annually by similar charts of Vland, 
     Spinward Marches, Antares,  etc as the various Milieux Books are 
     released; these starcharts would be accompanied with extra special 
     books something like the Spinward Marches or Solomani Rim 'black book' 
     supplements. 
     
     5. Charge people money to name their children/pets after famous 
     Traveller characters, places and so on "Oh my god Norris, stop 
     smearing your $h*t on the wall! And leave Kinunir alone..."
     
     6. Take out a copyright on the name 'Beowulf'. Sue English lit 
     departments everywhere and romp home with the cash (joke for other 
     decrepit old fogies from the Black Book Era (BBE))
     
     7. Some kind of collectible card game (CCG) WAIT! *Hold those flames!* 
     Perhaps an abbreviated, *superquick* ship combat/character combat 
     system could be adapted to cards, for those of us that ain't too keen 
     on all the dice-rolling. Different strokes for different folks, 
     folks...
     
     8. Other TML members come up with better ideas than mine! 
     
     Oh bugger it, the missus has started hitting me...

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 00:23:35 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #470

In mail you write:

> Actually, I'm pretty sure that my figures are right on. BTW, the figure
> calculated from a two-square-meter meter hole at one atm. is 200,000 N,
> not 2,000,000.
>
>>Consider that by his formula, opening a bottle of pop (at something
>>like 50-75 psi) should knock you over. It doesn't.
>
> Hmm... Most of the pressure escapes when the lid is first cracked open
> (very small hole area), before the top comes off. The pressure
> disappears so fast, that the total impulse (force times time) is too low
> to knock you over.

So make it champange. :-)

> The same thing applies to starships, incidentally. The 0.02 G factor
> that I calculated in my previous post (which, admittedly, you couldn't
> have read yet when you posted your message) for a 2 m^2 hole in a 10^6
> kg scout courier would decrease rather rapidly, providing more of
> *lurch* than an accelleration.
>
>>Somebody posted figures for the average molecular velocity of the
>>molecules. If the interior walls and exterior hull were shaped such as
>>to form a DeLaval nozzle, then you could treat it like a rocket. In
>>which case the thrust is directly related to the exhaust velocity.
>>Which is that same molecular velocity. 
>
> If you did this calculation using the ideal gas laws, you should get the
> same value for the thrust that I did (Thrust = Pressure times Area).
> Because that is how pressure is originally derived in the ideal gas model.

I think I figured out the problem. It's the lack of a nozzle that kills
the thrust. Some of those molecules will be exiting almost parallel to
the hull, others at right angles, and all angles between these two
extremes. So only the portion of the "pressure" or velocity that is at
right angles to the hull will actually go towards moving the ship.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 23:50:54 PST
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

In mail you write:

> I guess I needed to be more specific. So far my group has a picture of a 
> naval base as being an extremely large craft in planetary orbit that is 
> an active and major piece of the system defense. We have sort of assumed 
> that in addition to being an orbiting fortress, that you can fly a 
> capital ship into one as in the later Star Trek movies and TNG.

Possible, but *much* more likely is something dug *well* into an
asteroid, moon, or even the surface of a planet. What you are thinking
of is merely a dockyard & mooring area. In Star Trek, with Shields, you
can defend such a base. In traveller, lacking such things, you need
*armor* And the easiest way to do it is dig in to something.

Consider the problems with trying to attack a base that is built into a
nickel iron asteroid 20 km in diameter. The vital installations are in
there *somewhere*, but where? The locations would be classified, and
the transit tunnels/corridors would be laid out with an eye to making
it hard to figure out where things were in relation to each other.

Anything short of relativistic rocks can pound on such a base until
they (the attacker) run out of fuel and supplies, and do little damage
except to surface features.

For a surface installation (ie something on the mainworld), dig back a
few months and find my posts on what a spaceport would probably look
like, and then fortify the hell out of it.

Go to the library and look up articles on NORAD's command center under
Cheyenne mountain. This is the TL6/TL7 equivalent. If you want to take
it out you have to destroy a *mountain* first!

Check out the British base at Gibraltar. Same idea, but at lower tech.
You dig into a *lot* of rock.

> We are trying to prepare to play out a major space battle, where the 
> purpose of the battle is to destroy, disable, or capture said naval 
> base. Have any of the companies that owned Traveller ever actually 
> published any sort of detailed information about a naval base as either 
> part of a source book or an adventure?

Nope. And any intelligently designed base, even at say, TL8, will be
almost invulnerable to any attacking fleet unless they are willing to
use "planet wrecker" grade weaponry.

> If not, what is a reasonable displacement? 100,000? 500,000? a million? 
> I am talking about a naval base for the Sword Worlds at this point.

Try something more like quintillions or sextillions of DT. A 5 km
diameter, roughly spherical asteroid is about 5e18 (5 sextillion)
displacement tons. 

Remember, since it doesn't need drives, you save money. You don't have
to *build* the hull, you just have to excavate tunnels, and build stuff
into it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 00:44:10 PST
Subject: Re: Roll them Bones!

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> Hey!  You do that too?  <g> Not only do I randomly roll dice, I'll also
>> check my notes, for no reason other than to keep the players paranoid..
>
> Yes!  This is what /I/ mean by "Referees should be sadistic."  Not that 
> we should be "out to get" the PC's (unless one is playing Cthulu or 
> Paranoia, that is[G]), but that one should keep them appropriately "on 
> the edge" by such tactics as you described in your example (which I 
> deleted for brevity).

Heck, every once and a while I'd ask a player about one of his
character's characteristics and have him roll a die. Then go on as if
nothing had happened.

Another good one is to pass notes to players, or take them into the
other room for a minute. If you pass notes, make them return it after
reading it, that way, if it was just to induce paranoia they can't go
"Look, it was nothing!". And just watch them *try* to convince everyone
that you didn't discuss anything important with them.  :-)

It's also good to leave things unexplained. Things that the players
cannot figure out or explain, and never will be able to. If they obsess
on one of them, you may wind up with a new adventure. If not, it keeps
them aware that not *everything* odd has to be part of the plotline.

(There's absolutely *no* truth to the rumor that the first humans to
open a sealed building at an Ancients site that had been buried for at
least a hundred thousand years found "Kilroy was here" scribbled on the
wall. None whatsoever! :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 06:37:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Roll them Bones!

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Cmdr Hold'Em wrote:

> Tom Ellis wrote:
> > I use (clatter, clatter) alot in my PBEM game, sometimes its really a
> > roll, sometimes it may not be...who is to know ? ;)
> 
> What do you do?
> Send a message of "rattle rattle rattle...clunk clunk clunk...hmmmm"?
> 

(clatter, clatter)


_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 21:01:23 +1000
Subject: [none]

It looks like I am going to be flamed for sending more garbage on the net 
(I appolagise for those empty messages, i was trying to upload ascii into 
my mailer [I use pine on Linux shell account].

I have posted my Technical School and Skills on a web page :

http://www.ar.com.au/~dtadams/traveller/main.html

If you have any stuff to put on there, let me know, as it looks bloody empty.



>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #479
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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 2 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 480

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. 2 arrivals!
         2. RE: Add ons for t4
         3. Re: MIME
         4. Re: FFS questions. Any gurus out there?
         5. Re: The Poor Steward
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #475
         7. Re: What We Need
         8. Re: What We Need (longish, ranting)
         9. JTAS and Starships???
        10. Re: A couple o' questions...
        11. Re: 2 arrivals!
        12. JG 50 Starbases
        13. Psionic Supressions
        14. Re: Add ons for t4
        15. Re: Singed hardbacks
        16. Re: A couple o' questions...
        17. RE: T4 artwork
        18. Re: Roll them Bones!
        19. Re: Roll them Bones!
        20. Re: 2 arrivals!
        21. Re: Naval Bases
        22. Re: Singed hardbacks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tc@library.solent.ac.uk (Timothy Collinson)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 96 12:31:26 GMT
Subject: 2 arrivals!

~EXTERNALFROM  : tc@library.solent.ac.uk
TO       : traveller@mpgn.com
SUBJECT  : 2 arrivals!
DATE     :  Wed Oct 2 12:27:49 GMT 1996
ADDRESS  : Mountbatten Library, Southampton Institute,
         : East Park Terrace, Southampton, SO14 OYN
         : UK
TELEPHONE: 01703 319248

Message is as follows:

Yesterday, an autographed hardcover arrived in Gosport
(depths of Southern England).  I'm dead chuffed.

Day before yesterday Sarah Elizabeth arrived in Portsmouth
(weighing 7lbs 1oz).  I'm so chuffed as to just have to let
the whole world know!  (Does TML count as the 'whole' world?)


Timothy
"Guess which will keep me up more at night?"



------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 14:17:32 +0100
Subject: RE: Add ons for t4

Mark Ayers wrote:
     
     Moin Darryl Adams said     Sorry : THIS IS A FLAME !
     
        please dont post mime here, even quoted-printable is nearly
        unreadable, BASE64 is junk.
     
     Why should your limitations effect the rest of us?
     
     keepin' the flame!

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

OK, I think I can reply in a calm, collected and polite manner now.

Some of us receive TML in digest form, and the mime stuff in the original 
message simply came out as junk in the middle of the digest.

A good reason for our limitation affecting the rest of you is that the 
original poster asked for comments on what was sent.  If I can't read it, I 
can't comment on it.

Thank you for your time.

Proot!
Liam

- -- 
Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk


------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.micro.lucent.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 08:27:30 -0400
Subject: Re: MIME

Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com> wrote:
> Moin Darryl Adams said	Sorry : THIS IS A FLAME !
> >	please dont post mime here, [ ... ]
> 
> Why should your limitations effect the rest of us?

Actually, my reader handles MIME, but the digestifier usually makes
it unreadable to me anyway without a great deal of work. It is much
better if you can give an FTP or WWW address for non-textual matter.

However, you had put TEXT files in MIME format as well. There's no
reason to do that, other than to annoy those that don't have the
ability to read MIME.

And no, I don't think MIME is junk. It is a STANDARD for sending
binary files, unlike the old uuencode method which is done either
by hand or through a number of non-standard extensions. But the
digester DOES give it a hard time.

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /       Allentown, PA  18103-6209      O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

From: kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 13:37:11 +0000 ()
Subject: Re: FFS questions. Any gurus out there?

Moin David Murray,

> I've been working on some TL 17+ designs lately and I have a good question.

	oh guy, start with 12 or 13.

> If you supply enough power can you eliminate the need for HPGs in each
> weapon design?  I know that HPGs must be in the design somewhere, to handle
> black globe power etc.  But at these TLs it takes more volume to store
> energy in an HPG than it does to generate the same amount of power.

	The PP provides a steady energy flux, but lasers and a lot
	of other things needs fast high peaks, so you need a buffer.
	The HPG is like an high tech condensator.

> Along the same lines why do Jump drives require std 'fuel'.  A jump engine
> just turns that fuel into energy to make a jump.  Why can't you provide
> that energy by other means?

	The PP only uses up a litle bit of LHy for one year fusion.
	The jump drive has a "very hot fusion chamber" for providing
	the high energy directly for the jump.

	BTW if you are working under Unix or are able to ftp GAWK,
	I'v written some nice scripts at http://www.hb.north.de/hosts/bakunin

By Michael
- -- 
" ceterum censeo MSDOS esse delendam - trust me, I know what I'm deleting "

  Privat  27721 Werschenrege 52  +49 4292 674     kraehe@bakunin.north.de
  Firma   Missing Link - Bremen  +49 421  504348  kraehe@missing-link.de

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 08:39:45 -0500
Subject: Re: The Poor Steward

>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Date: Tue, 01 Oct 96 23:47:26 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Poor Steward
>
>On 10/01/96 at 12:02 AM,  Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> said:
>
>>>Add a Steward or Service skill. You have to! <g>
>
>>Aw, you're just mad cause you got busted!
>
>No, I'm NOT!  <g> Besides, *I* didn't do anything.  I was just standing
>there.  Can I help it if Clancy careless let me see the safe combination.
><g>

<smirk> Oh, well I'll have to remember to mark down that Clancy has poor
sight.  Well, he must if he didn't see Al's halo!  <grin>


>To me Steward would combine such things as cooking, bartending, operating
>and maintaining the cleaning equipment, providing for the entertainment of
>the passengers, keeping an eye on things
>(security), making sure life support is working and supplied,
>stocking supplies for the ship, and on small ships usually handling gunnery
>duties.

Gunnery is easy, we already have a skill for that.
Life Support would IMO be Engineering skill, but Steward duties.
Stocking supplies would be Trader/Broker (Possibly).  Again Steward duties.
Security - a combo of Perception and fighting skills. Definitely Steward duties.
Entertainment - Acting or Music or perhaps just Computer. Good for Steward.
Cleaning Equip - could be engineering or Mechanic.

Cooking/Bartending - This is what I think the Steward Skill is for but the
agruement could be made that Computer skill and the attributes Edu and Int
could be used instead.


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Steve Lovett <sl@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 22:17:29 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #475

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996 owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM wrote:

> From: Steven Ward <Steven.Ward@brunel.ac.uk>
> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 16:36:50 BST
> Subject: T4 Hardbacks
> 
> I just thought I would let everybody know, that my singed hardback copy 
                                                     ^^^^^^
> arrived... Three weeks ago!!!!
> 
> I didn't want to brag, but I have been convinced to do it!

If the US Snail is that fast then _someone_ has something to brag about.
They must be a lot faster than the Australian Snail.

> Steven Ward
> E-Mail: Steven.Ward@Brunel.ac.uk 
> World wide web: http://www.wlihe.ac.uk/~ward/

- --
Steve Lovett <sl@pobox.com>
Public key on servers, finger, or send me email with subject send pgp-key
PGP: 2048/69FAB015 7F 4D 55 D6 DC B8 C6 7C  71 A9 44 E1 12 42 0D 59

'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched
the government - not the other way around. - David J. Golden


------------------------------

From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 16:05:54 +0200
Subject: Re: What We Need

Cmdr Hold'Em wrote:
> 
> Traveller is nowhere to be seen.
> I only got my copy because I made my regular store aware of it, 
> no body else in this game-forsaken city has even heard of it

Well, it can't be that bad. I got my softcover over 3 weeks ago.
And the store has allready gotten their second shippment of four
books (three were still in the shop three days ago). And I live
in Norway. 

- -- 
Tommy Grav 
Email: tommyg@ifi.uio.no
WWW-Page: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html
"Sooner or later the worst set of circumstances are bound to occur."

------------------------------

From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 16:08:25 +0200
Subject: Re: What We Need (longish, ranting)

Joe Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Cmdr Hold'Em wrote:
> 
> > What is ad is that this version of Traveller will probably put out a few books, then die..
> > I know Traveller has its fans BUT so does everybody else, and everybody else is doing
> > things differently (ie promoting in the near mainstream)
> > Traveller is the greatest RPG, regardless of system (CT, MT, TNE, T4) but it just is not
> > depraved enough for current roleplayers in general
> 
> (Raising glass) Here's to hoping you're dead wrong about the fate of T4. :)
> 
> -Joe
> 

Although I hope he is wrong, I have some fears since I get the feeling
nobody has heard
anything about the Starships-book yet. Well, delays in the
gaming-busniess is no news 
so :-)
- -- 
Tommy Grav 
Email: tommyg@ifi.uio.no
WWW-Page: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html
"Sooner or later the worst set of circumstances are bound to occur."

------------------------------

From: Mike Basinger <dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 09:11:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: JTAS and Starships???

Anyone know what the status of the first issue of JTAS and the supplement 
Starships is. They where both due out in September. 

Thanks for any info,
Mike

- --
D. Michael Basinger [N9YYO]
dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
<http://copper.ucs.indiana.edu/~dbasinge/>
"Not speaking for Indiana University"


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 07:18:49 -0800
Subject: Re: A couple o' questions...

On  2 Oct 96 at 6:57, Boyd Schneider spewed:

> Saw a couple of things that I didn't know...
> 
> What is DGP?

Third Party Licensees for CT & MT.  Got their start by publishing the 
Travellers' Digest for CT.  Other CT works to their credit include 
Book 8 Robots (written by DGP staff, published by GDW) and 101 
Robots.

They played a large part in the consolidation and work on the 3 Book 
set for MegaTraveller, + the Referee's Companion that followed for 
GDW.  In addition, they published all of the following for MT:

101 Vehicles
Vilani & Vargr (aka Bogs & Dogs)
Solomani & Aslan (aka Rats & Cats)
World Builders Handbook
Starship Operators Manual, Volume 1
Knightfall (published by GDW, but written by DGP staff)
Flaming Eye
MegaTraveller Journal

For the most part, their stuff is of excellent quality, but was 
always a little more difficult to find than GDW's...  Worth snatching 
up if you find a deal...

DGP has reformed under the ownership of Roger Sanger, who's been 
quiet of late...

> What is GDW-Beta?

A mailing list mostly concerned with Rules Development.  Originally 
formed for testing and comments on the FF&S system, the mailing list 
was also responsible for helping develop and test the QSDS system in 
the T4 rules, and the SSDS system to be in the upcoming Starships 
book...

Hope this helps...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 07:24:07 -0800
Subject: Re: 2 arrivals!

On  2 Oct 96 at 12:31, Timothy Collinson spewed:

> Message is as follows:
> 
> Yesterday, an autographed hardcover arrived in Gosport
> (depths of Southern England).  I'm dead chuffed.

For those of us English speakers on the other side of the pond, 
please explain the origin & definition of "chuffed".  I don't know whether 
its good or bad, although I would suspect good.

> Day before yesterday Sarah Elizabeth arrived in Portsmouth
> (weighing 7lbs 1oz).  I'm so chuffed as to just have to let
> the whole world know!  (Does TML count as the 'whole' world?)

The only parts of the world that matter.  The rest is Upper Volta 
with televisions...  :-P

> Timothy
> "Guess which will keep me up more at night?"

For the 1st few months, the baby, hands down...especially if she's 
colicky.  I speak from personal experience, since I have 2 
sons...3-1/2 years & 10 months...  Hell, I didn't have a chance to open 
a book with my oldest 1 until he was about 2...

Congratulations, BTW...they're a pain, but they're definitely worth 
it...   :-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 96 10:24:26 -0400
Subject: JG 50 Starbases

>Anyone familiar with a Judge's Guild Traveller supplement called "50 
>Starbases"?

Yes I am.

Its 50 maps of starbases. It also has a few pages about starport
operations, but they either repeat CT rules, or are pretty basic.  The
maps are okay, and since I have it, I'll use them, but I wouldn't buy it.  

Way back in 1982 the local hobby shop was putting 5 JG modules toghthor
and selling them pretty cheap, I got three packs for Christmas. Some of
their stuff was pretty good, Tancred, Darthenon Queen, and the sectors,
and some was useless. Traveller Logbook.  THeir production values were
really low, but some of their ideas were pretty good.  



Lewis Roberts
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Wanted: One Cool Sig
lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 96 10:28:16 -0400
Subject: Psionic Supressions

 
Someone long forgotten by me, started a thread asking about why there
weren't more Psionic Institutes in years 0.  

I can't remember the exact source, but I believe in MT and TNE, it says
that after the Psionic Supressions, most of the Psionic Institutes were
reestablished in secret.  So there are the same number of Psionic
Institutes in 1100 as in 0. Just now they are secret and illegal. 
During the Psionic Supressions there would be even fewer psionic institutes.


Lewis Roberts
- - ------------------------------------------------------------
Wanted: One Cool Sig
lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
 

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 07:35:27 -0800
Subject: Re: Add ons for t4

On  1 Oct 96 at 11:33, Joe Walsh spewed:

> On Tue, 1 Oct 1996 mchildre@pcshs.com wrote:
> 
> > On a brief glance it looked cool to me.  Joe, on your questions
> > about tech schools, most of them focus on the tech and a lot less
> > on the general ed stuff.  Not much need for oil painting classes
> > at an engineering school ya know.
> 
> So, you would agree that +1 edu per year in a technical school is
> too much?  I'd say just add the skills, and leave Edu alone...or,
> perhaps add +1 edu for 3 years.  What do you think?
> 

I say you leave Edu alone...or maybe a +1 for the term if you wish.  
Most Technical Schools have a narrow emphasis on teaching a 
particular profession (translation: Skills) and generally don't teach 
anything outside of that narrow scope alone.  Heck, most technical 
schools don't even teach things outside of the discipline that would 
enable somebody to further their career, such as writing, 
communications, etc...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 11:12:12 +0000
Subject: Re: Singed hardbacks

At least nobody got Mr Miller to "sing" their T4 book...

Now listen to my story bout a game called T4
had some similiarities to other games before
when one day GDW went down the drain
and Marc Miller said lets issue it again
roleplaying that is, science fiction
next thing you know, Mr Miller's got them out
and all the Traveller fans start to scream and shout....
anyway you get the picture

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 11:14:47 +0000
Subject: Re: A couple o' questions...

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 
> Saw a couple of things that I didn't know...
> 
> What is DGP?

Digest Group Publications, the best Traveller licensee, ever

> What is GDW-Beta?

This is the mailing list for playtesting new products, it was the first place that got the new 
starship rules; frequented by IG staff (M Miller, G Porter among others)

------------------------------

From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 08:09:05 -0700
Subject: RE: T4 artwork

Dave Smart plonked this out:
>>> One more thing about T4 artwork.  When the second printing comes out,
>>> the page with the weapons illustrations really, really should be
>>> replaced.  The weapons, as drawn, are only useful as clubs to beat the
>>> artist over the head with...
>> 
>>I was about to say the same thing PLUS
>>Did you notice...
>>that the SMG tapers to about 3mm?
>>the hilt of the broadsword is melting?
>>the basket on the foil would break your wrist?
>
>'sigh'...yes. IMO, the illus. of the ATV is a little too "bent". Hate to
>hit a decent bump in it.

How do you know that the ATV isn't _already_ bent.  The shocks are
trashed, the frame is bent, but the paint job is showroom floor quality!

Jeffrey

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 11:22:06 +0000
Subject: Re: Roll them Bones!

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Another good one is to pass notes to players, or take them into the
> other room for a minute. If you pass notes, make them return it after
> reading it, that way, if it was just to induce paranoia they can't go
> "Look, it was nothing!". And just watch them *try* to convince everyone
> that you didn't discuss anything important with them.  :-)

I have a few...
Pass a note to a player with the following on it...
"read this, scratch your chin, sign your name twice and smile at (other player) then hand 
this note back to me"
You then send a note to the other player with the following....
"you feel a tap on your shoulder, turn and see (player one) grinning at you"
This was in a Paranoia game, but if you were exploring an Ancients ruin, this would be a 
great way to give people the creeps

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 11:23:26 +0000
Subject: Re: Roll them Bones!

Tom Ellis wrote: 
> (clatter, clatter)

what!? what?! what's happening?
I light a torch and check for secret doors

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 11:25:40 +0000
Subject: Re: 2 arrivals!

Timothy Collinson wrote:
> Yesterday, an autographed hardcover arrived in Gosport
> (depths of Southern England).  I'm dead chuffed.
> 
> Day before yesterday Sarah Elizabeth arrived in Portsmouth
> (weighing 7lbs 1oz).  I'm so chuffed as to just have to let
> the whole world know!  (Does TML count as the 'whole' world?)
> 
> Timothy
> "Guess which will keep me up more at night?"

What does "dead chuffed" mean?

Answers:
no, not really. But it is the home of the Leaders of Tomorrow (about 57th century)
Traveller?

------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 17:25:05 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

Ed Dowgiallo writes:

> How large a fleet do the Sword Worlds possess? How large for the 
> Darrians? What would be the typical squadron stationed at a naval base?

Based on what I can recall of TCS I can give you a few pointers:

Each Sword World has its own navy. In times of crisis the offensive ships
(those with jump drive) are consolidated and put under Confederation
control. To calculate the size of one planet's navy: Multiply the number
of citizens by 5000. Multiply by some factor (from 0.8 to 1.5 IIRC) to
reflect the government type. I can't remember the table, sorry. This will
give you the number of (local) credits the navy is worth. Decide how much
of this has been spent on the defensive armament and how much has been
spent on offensive (I'd suggest 70% defense forces). Use the defensive
budget to buy non-jump starships and orbital defense sattelites and such
stuff. These ships would normally be built at the local TL, but if you 
wish you may have them buy smaller ships and fighters from friendly 
neighbors with a higher TL. Buy jump-capable starships for the offensive 
budget. These would also mostly be home-made, but there is a greater chance 
that some better TL ships has been bought. Don't forget to pay a bit more 
for these ships (5-10% more per tech level).

We don't know much about the Darrian Confederation navy, except that there
is a permanet one. Since it is a confederation I suggest that you split the 
individual planetary budgets into defensive ships, local jump-capable ships, 
and Confederation Navy ships. There is also several squadrons of TL 16 ships, 
but the Darrians hoard those and wouldn't expose them to danger unless 
absolutely necessary.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

From: Steven Ward <Steven.Ward@brunel.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 12:06:52 BST
Subject: Re: Singed hardbacks

>From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
>Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 21:49:12 -0700
>Subject: Re: Singed hardbacks
>
>Joe Walsh wrote:
>> 
>> Did anyone else receive a singed hardback 3 weeks early? Was it because
>> they partially burned up on atmospheric re-entry?
>> 
>Misjumps can be hell. :)

I'll give my copy its due, it did survive a misjump - undamaged, orbital 
re-entry in its packing container - again undamaged and then the post office 
got hold of it :-)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen? It's been 15 hours. We are gonna grow old and die in here. 
Stephen? Stephen, there's a Martian war machine parked outside. 
They'd like to have a word with you about the common cold." 
- -- Vance Hendricks to Dr. Franklin in Babylon 5:"Infection"

Steven Ward
E-Mail: Steven.Ward@Brunel.ac.uk 
World wide web: http://www.wlihe.ac.uk/~ward/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------






------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 2 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 481

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Archean Thesis
         2. Vilani nobility
         3. Re: IG/T4 fundraising
         4. Re: TAS money and characters
         5. T4 Damage Values
         6. Re: What We Need
         7. Re: Naval Bases
         8. Re: Re: Add ons for t4
         9. RE: Dragon Article
        10. Jump Space Radio
        11. 50 Starbases
        12. Various subjects, long, somewhat rantish.
        13. Base-64 & UU/XX
        14. Stuff I Post
        15. T4 Combat
        16. Trip to the Store
        17. Re: Tech Schools repost
        18. Repost: T4 Attack DM Reference

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 09:54:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Archean Thesis

> From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
> >     *THE ARCHAEAN THESIS*
>      
>         I loved this post! It strikes right to the core of one of my
> favorite Traveller-related pasttimes --- thinking about the future
> history of the Traveller Universe! And, incidently, coming up with
> models that can explain the published "data."

Me too! This is the kind of cool background material that I like...

> >     Discussion? Comments? Even flames are welcome these days...
> 
> Some weak points in your scenario:
> 
> 1) The Solomani Hypothosis postulated that Humaniti originated on Terra, and
> that they were scattered about known space by a technological power called
> the 'Ancients' about whom nothing was known. It wasn't discovered that
> the Ancients and Droyne were the same until 1107 or so (by player
> characters going on the adventure "Twilight's Peak"), five centuries
> after the Solomani Hypothosis was proven.
> 
> Before the Solomani Hypothesis, it wasn't clear where Humaniti's
> homeworld was, or how they got scattered about known space. Every human
> race had at least one (often chauvinistic) theory about its origins.
> (The Archaean Thesis is a beautiful example of one, but there were
> probably at least 40 other theses much like it --- one for each race.)

Yes, the Solomani hypothesis was probably one of the first major
theories to promote the origin of all humaniti on Terra. Until then,
everyone had their own idea. I read (somewhere) that there was a very
popular
proposal to tag humanity's homeworld somewhere-or-another on a planet
that had lots of flora/fauna biochemically similar to humans - except 
that it was in reality an Ancient zoo! Having no fossil record, it was
difficult to prove anything about it one way or another.

> Cleon was so obsessed with pushing spinward because according to the
> information of his archeologists and his IISS, the Spinward Marches were
> the statistical center of the distribution of Ancient sites. He guessed
> (correctly, as it turns out) that the Marches contained the Ancients'
> homeworld. And he wanted to reach them before the perfidious Zhodani
> did. 

Hm. How could he have been racing the Zhodani to the Marches when the
Marches
are where the Imeprium met the Zhodani? The Zhodani fist contacted the
3rd
Imperium circa 500 3I, according to "Imperial Encyclopedia".
(Ethan brandishes his canon wildly).

> I don't know who people guessed the Ancients were. I suppose some
> Solomani extremists may have thought that /they/ were the Ancients.
> At least until 1107, when they would have been proven wrong at
> Twilight's Peak. (Assuming the PC's were successful, of course. 8^)

I doubt there was any consensus about who the Ancients were. It was
probably a generic term meaning "some race who lived and died a long
time ago". "Ancients" to Imperial archeologists (sp?) is probably like
the
word "Indian" today - you could probably apply the word "Indian" to
a quarter of the Earth's population in a bazillion different ways.

Anyways, good thesis. I mean, it's wrong, but hey, that's what makes it
so good. :)

Ethan



------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 11:23:46 -0400
Subject: Vilani nobility

Well, someone asked about Vilani nobility, so I took my ownership
of a copy of V&V as a public responsibility and so I'll
dig through it. (How Vilani of me)

 * The Vilani have a fairly strict caste system, at least historically.
   (It was of course broken down during the 2nd Imperium).
   To quote:

    "In Vilani society, each individual takes his or her place
     within a caste for life. For each of us, our first role
     in life is to contribute to our chosen occupational caste."

   Note that this means that Vilani who were in leadership
   positions probably stayed there their entire lives, thus
   having their position in society translated into English as 
   "noble". If we consult the dictionary:

   noble /adj/ 1. having or showing high moral qualities
    2. belonging to a class of people who hold titles and
    high social rank 3. ...

  By typical definitions, most Viliani leaders would have fit
  this description - they had high standing and some sort
  of title and, as Vilani, they were not in positions of leader-
  ship for self-serving reasons, but because it was their
  ordained psoition in society and they were going to do a
  good job of it, for the good of the Vilani people in general.

  Pretty noble by Terran standards. ;)

 * The Vilani did not have governments as we know them - the
   Vilani bureaux were corporations and governments rolled 
   into one. Their employees were their citizens. They are
   like governments run for a profit (imagine!)

   Again to quote:

    "To abuse or oppress the 'citizens' is a conflict in terms,
     since the citizens are also the customers. To make the
     customer unhappy is not good business sense."


 * Finally an actual point on nobility, a quote:

    "The nobility descended from the ancient village chiefs.
     The third child of every noble was a noble: the others
     were commoners. Higher nobles could create new, lower
     nobles." [Note that this rule broke down during the
     Rule of Man, as Vilani influences were replaced with
     Terran ones.]

   Vilani nobles have the same roots and origins as their
   Terran counterparts - as kings, dukes, chieftans, etc.
   The same titles would apply to the Vilani as they do to
   Princes, Kings, Queens, Dukes, etc these days.

Anyways, hope that's helpful!

Ethan


------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 02 Oct 96 11:48:18 EDT
Subject: Re: IG/T4 fundraising

I like these ideas, and flames or no, a limited CCG (item #7) isn't all that
bad an idea(even coming from below the equator as it does), especially for the
benefits of added exposure and potential cashflow. The even greater bennie of
being able to use it to shorten combat situations (a'la WW's recent foray)
certainly couldn't hurt....

------------------------------

From: Scott Thede <brutus@expert.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:58:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: TAS money and characters

> 
> Catching up on mail again...gee, this list is busy!  :)
> 
> Lan Kelly <CyberWere@ConnectI.com> wrote:
> 
> >I was rolling up my first character he spent his first term in the 
> >Marines, failed his continuance roll and got one roll on the Mustering 
> >out table.  I roll a 6 on the Benefits Table and get TAS (of all 
> >things).  Now the character is only 24 and going to continue in 
> >another career or more. 
> >
> >Does he receive a High passage even during the creation time period.  
> >Using conservative figures you could sell a High passage for 25% of 
> >is face value and have and income of Cr15,000 per year.  Over a 20 
> >year career the character can garner Cr300,000 in addition to any 
> >other benefits.
> 
> I'll buck the trend here and say that this might be reasonable.  Do 
> you know why they charge you a million credits to join up?  It's so 
> that the Society can actually *afford* to get you those high passage
> tickets!

I would also say it is reasonable to get the tickets.  However, I would
  probably rule that the character would use at least a couple of those
  high passages each year for vacations or business travel.  Depending on
  the character, that is.  If you play a miser, I'd let you keep all the money.
  If you play a playboy type, you wouldn't get any.  C'est la vie.

<snip>

>   Steve Bonneville
>   <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu> 
>  
> 


------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 09:05:39 -0700
Subject: T4 Damage Values

Hi all,

Anyone notice that the T4 the text describing the weapons alludes to
penetration values of several weapons yet on the weapons table there is no
such listing.  Do weapons have penetration values or was this a typo.  If
any knows and could explain what the penetration value v. the damage value
means.  


------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 12:32:30 +0000
Subject: Re: What We Need

Tommy Grav wrote:
> Well, it can't be that bad. I got my softcover over 3 weeks ago.
> And the store has allready gotten their second shippment of four
> books (three were still in the shop three days ago). And I live
> in Norway.

Great, there is more Traveller books in Norway than in Toronto, and we are on the same 
bloody continent as IG

------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 12:38:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

At 8:11 AM -0400 9/28/96, Ed Dowgiallo wrote:
>I guess I needed to be more specific. So far my group has a picture of a
>naval base as being an extremely large craft in planetary orbit that is
>an active and major piece of the system defense. We have sort of assumed
>that in addition to being an orbiting fortress, that you can fly a
>capital ship into one as in the later Star Trek movies and TNG.

>Would you expect the Sword Worlds base to have sensor satellites for
>extended targetting? A space minefield of some kind to limit approaches?

Yes.  Expect lots of stealthy picket ships coasting along using only
passive sensors.

>Would it have a small number of very large weapons or a very large
>number of point defense type weapons? It is, after all, primarily
>defensive in purpose.

Well, in the Trillion Credit Squadron campaign I ran many moons ago, the
typical  naval bases the players came up with were multiple buffered
planetoids - the more important the base, the more standard planetoids
would be used.  They each had a couple massive dispersed structures jump
tugs that they'd use to move the bps from system to system.  Fixed
planetbound structures tended not to get used much as they can't dodge, and
it's generally only a matter of time before the orbiting fleet pinpoints
your deep meson sites and blows the crap out of them.

Bases without m-drives rapidly earned the nickname "skeet."

Typically, each rock would be barely large enough to support the biggest
spinal mount weapon they could build at their tech level, under the theory
that the more spinal mounts they could bring to a party, the better.  Don't
skimp on the defensive systems, though.  Other than the spinal mount, most
of the rocks weapon systems were devoted to defense.

Any place important enough to earn a significant base also typically had a
couple of thousand insystem fighters (once the supercarrier race started,
anyway), typically deployed from many small planetoids hidden in the
asteroid belt or in the gas giant lagrange points.


Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

"That's our advantage at Microsoft; we set the standards and we can change
them."
 -- Karen Hargrove, Microsoft (quoted in the Feb 1993 Unix Review editorial)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 02 Oct 1996 12:41:49 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Add ons for t4

>Why should your limitations effect the rest of us?

Um, how about good manners?  

Post the material on the web/ftp site/whatever, and post a pointer to the
list.  That's what we've been doing.  If you don't have access to the web,
either myself or David Golden can provide some space.

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 13:01:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Dragon Article

On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> You mentioned in TML a Dragon article.  Could I have the cite when 
> you track it down, please?

   Don't know any of the numbers, but I have the issue dates:

   July, 1981 : Traveller special issue (stuff on aliens, and the Miller
                Milk Bottle)
   March 1982 : (This is the one you want) Exonidas Spaseport.
   May   1983 : Traveller Nobility (useful)
   July, 1984 : MMs article (a good one) on the Moon in 3I.
   March 1985 : Antimissiles and roundshot. (fun)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 2 Oct 96  9:12:58 MS
Subject: Jump Space Radio

Joe Walsh, quoting Eris Reddoch, said:
>> Joe, a PC, always kept the radio on while in Jump Space, he said the white
>> noise was soothing. Then one day while a couple of PC's were on the
>> bridge..."Through the static on the radio you pick up a signal for a few
>> seconds and then it's gone."  (had them franticly trying to reacquire that
>> impossible signal, they never did..I played that one dead serious.  They
>> argued that it was impossible, I shruged my shoulders and said *you* heard
>> it, make of it what you will.  They eventually gave up trying to find the
>> signal and accused me of a setup, I said "Can't say.", and knowing how
>> devious a GM I am they were left with a shadow of a doubt..exactly what I
>> wanted.  This one also made an interesting bar story at their next
>> port..got Joe several free beers out of it...and this bunch *always* leaves
>> the radio on while in Jump Space now. <g>).
>
>Nice work. :)   Such things make the game a lot more interesting, IMO.  
>They add depth.  The story itself may be riveting, but it still benefits 
>from such side-lights.

Aaahhh, you just liked it because of the PC's name...

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 13:44:21 -0400
Subject: 50 Starbases

>From: Ed Dowgiallo <edowgial@prolog.net>
>Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 23:22:14 -0400
>Subject: Re: Naval Bases
>
>Anyone familiar with a Judge's Guild Traveller supplement called "50 
>Starbases"?

Yes. I have a copy that I no longer want. $10 plus postage, if anyone wants
it. e-mail me
                        Allen


------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 11:01:14 MST7
Subject: Various subjects, long, somewhat rantish.

to Boyd:

GDW-Beta is a mailing list, once part of the GDW team, now sort of 
transferred to IG...it's a bunch of people who rules hack and beta 
test stuff from the developers.  Informal,. and sometimes quite high 
traffic.  See Joe Heck's web page 
http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/ for details on subscribing.

DGP is Digest Group Publications, a now defunct games company that 
published many supplements for Traveller, both CT and MT, which leads 
me to my next point:

to the List:

"Why doesn't IG just reprint the DGP stuff?" and

"Why does Core look DIFFERENT???!!!"

	/rant mode -on

	First, neither IG or FarFuture Enterprises owns any rights to the 
DGP material, so they can't just go out and print it.

	Second, the DGP material available on the net, as in the fabled 
Genie/DGP sector data, from DGP's original Genie forum where they 
posted it.  There is much to like and a lot to dislike about this 
stuff. In the last, or next to last Challenge, someone, (I think it 
was Dave Nillson, damn when I'm away from my books I can never spell 
his name right, sorry Dave) said the data resembled nothing so much 
as  a 'computer with it's needle stuck in a groove'.  The data were 
generated by computer with a seriously flawed random number 
generator, or a program that didn't reseed the generator often 
enough, because it is highly repetitive.

	The data for the Core sector is worse, when I was messing about with 
it, getting it into a database to look at things like 'What is the 
Imperium Mean Tech level?' and 'what is the Tech Level 
distribution?', I had to throw out a number of worlds, simply because 
they were missing the entire UWP, and several had nothing but a UWP, 
leaving me to guess at population levels, etc.

	My preference is what IG seems to be doing, which is re-inventing 
the universe, more or less.

	To all of you who will immediately piss and moan about 'All my old 
stuff is no good anymore!!!', tough.  If you HAVE to play 'in Canon', 
buy the new stuff, otherwise adapt everything to your own universe. 

	Don't bitch at IG for not supporting everything that came
before...I think Marc stated quite clearly that T4 was intended to
be a re-creation of CT 'in light of 20 years of gaming experience',
not a game burdened down with 20 years of add-ons...that's like
blaming Micr$oft for not supporting Win95 on a PC-XT. 

	I guess it's pretty clear where I stand...I started GM'ing when
both D&D and Traveller were still TLB's, none of the people I've
ever played with or GM'ed thought a second about developing their
own world(s).  You're the GM: your word is Law (say it with a
Stallone-esque sneer "I YAM the LAW!") in your game.

	I appreciate background material as much or more than the other
guy, but I slip it into my universe, file off the serial numbers,
re-paint it, and then trot it out with fake ID papers. It truly
isn't that hard, and that way your players aren't ahead of you all
the time.

	In my D&D games, at the beginning of the campaign, I would whip out
the Monster Manual, and say: "See this...It lies, it lies horribly,
and if you believe it it WILL get you killed!"

	It did, too. I had things like intelligent Trolls ganging up with 
Hill Giants in black leather jackets.  Some rules lawyer tried to 
tell me that 'That can't work! Trolls aren't intelligent!' 

	The troll eating him, then stopped long enough to recite the
Pythagorean Theorem, before finishing him off. "Mmmm...Chomp, Smack.
Tender, but with a hint of insolence. Rather good for Rules Lawyer!
They're usually tough and inflexible"

	Yeah, some of the art in T4 sucks...I believe no one has mentioned 
the 'bolt action' shotgun yet, but throwing it out for that is truly 
tossing the baby out with the bath water.

	Comparing it to established Canon is also a mistake.  we've had the 
long reign of the GDW church, and Marc has just nailed his '99 
theses' to the door. Paraphrasing: "General historical stuff will stay pretty much 
the same, but details will be clarified or expanded."

	Canon is internally so inconsistent now, that maintaining absolute 
fidelity is impossible. Besides how many of you 'Holy Canonists' out 
there think Virus is NOT a heresy? Show of hands please?...

	/rant mode -off

My 0.02 Cr








	
Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: Thanasis Kinias <tkinias@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:54:44 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Base-64 & UU/XX

(Off-topic but relevant)

I understand the complaints about encoded text; it is a royal pain to
read with many EMail progs.  However, _pine_'s designers did not see fit
to include a simple means of pasting in outside text files.  The solution
I suggest to Mr.  Adams and others confined to VT100-based access is to
use _sendmail_ (sendmail [address] < [filename]) to mail the file to
yourself, then forward it to the list.

				Thanasis Kinias
				tkinias@primenet.com


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 14:16:41 -0400
Subject: Stuff I Post

>From time to time, I may post works of a quasi-creative nature, such as the
Pirates career I posted here, or my rules fixes for BSCS, or whatever. To
save time for all of you, I hereby give permission for anything I post to
the TML to be placed on whatever web pages wish to make use of said
material, as long as the material is not substantially altered (other then
corrections to my occasionally poor spelling), and as long as IG's
copyrights are respected; you might want to add the standard copyright
disclaimer (for IG, not for me). If I send something specifically to a
particular web page, or to Freelance Traveller, you should get their
premission before utilizing it.
                                Allen Shock

------------------------------

From: Thanasis Kinias <tkinias@primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 11:12:26 -0700 (MST)
Subject: T4 Combat

I haven't seen this mentioned (I'm just returning to the list after a
ten-month lack of EMail), so I'll bring it up.

Much has been discussed about to-hit possibilities under T4 rules, but
what about lethality?  I understand that T4 is using CT's wound rules, but
I'll blaspheme and say that GDW's T2k-based "house system" handled this
better.  If CT/T4 combat represented the real world, war would be a rather
like paintball games, as the lethality is _way_ too low.  This leads to
unrealistically heroic D&D-style action where the players worry little
about their skins; players are always braver with characters who, no
matter how loved, can be re-rolled if killed, than real people tend to be.
This is probably a good thing, but can be taken too far.

The problem resides in the near-impossibility of a one-shot kill w/o using
called shots.  A black-powder pistol is given a rating of 2.  This
generates a _maximum_ damage of 12 which _cannot_ kill Joe Average (UPP
777777).  A damage-4 shotgun is necessary to get a one-shot kill
possibility, as the damage-3 maximum (T4 p.57) prevents even a TL-15 12cm
APFSDSBSD round from killing a normal man.  Perhaps a crit roll would
help this, or some sort of hit-location roll.

What does TML think?

				Thanasis Kinias
				tkinias@primenet.com



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 13:44:19 -0500
Subject: Trip to the Store

Well, thanks to all those who have asked for stuff, I have moved my weekend
trip to the Gaming store to Thursday. :)

This is the last call for anyone wanting stuff.  Let me know before tomorrow!


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 14:54:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Tech Schools repost

>From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
>
>I will proberbly do this up as a HTML doc later, but for now, just a 
>strait message.

>BTW to the flammers :- Dont blame me if your mailer does not support 
>MIME. Pine supports it, so who am i to argue.

While I didn't get out the flamethrower, I was one of those unable to read
your post, and not because my mailreader doesn't support MIME. I use Eudora
E-mail, which handles it just fine. Problem is, I don't get separate posts
from TML, I get the TML *Digest*, as do many others. (I share my e-mail
account with two other people, so to avoid confusion I subscribe to the
Digest.)

Since your MIME attachment appeared in the middle of the Digest, Eudora
read it as straight text. Garble garble garble. I tried to think of a way
to get Eudora to interpret it without too much work, but I quickly threw up
my hands.

Which reminds me - I wonder if anybody who skims through the TML Archives
is going to be able to parse a MIME attachment either?

My own recent posting of a T4 Combat Reference Sheet was screwed up because
I cut & pasted it from Word for Mac, so I know that it can be difficult
preparing something for e-mail. It would be appreciated, though.

As for my Refsheet - I'll try to clean it up and send it again.

Glenn

PS: Got your URL post - will check it out tonight.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
 "I see it now! Madness IS the way!" -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 14:54:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Repost: T4 Attack DM Reference

"Let's try that again, shall we?" -- Wyle E. Coyote

Okay, so the last time I posted this it was full of nonsense characters=
 as
a result of being cut & pasted from Word for Mac (probably Quoted=
 Printable
MIME characters). If it looked okay in your newsreader, you can ignore=
 this
repost. If it looked messed up, with lots of "=3D3D" instead of hyphens,
etc., I hope this time it'll work.

If not, my apologies for wasting your time again. In any case, James
Garriss is planning on putting this up on his Webpage, so you'll=
 be able to
find it there.

Hope this works. Here goes...
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D

A feature of The Traveller Book which I always found helpful, but=
 which I
was disappointed to see left out of T4, was the handy one-page listing=
 of
all the applicable attack DMs. (I've not read MT nor TNE, so I don't=
 know
if they had them). Without a reference such as this, you may forget=
 to use
all the applicable DMs.

So here's my reference sheet. Of the Special Pools, I have only included
=46atigue. (I didn't like the way the rest had been implemented.)=
 Add 'em if
you use 'em.

I've also thrown together a handy Movement/Action Options list for=
 the
players to use, which is included at the bottom. Always good to know=
 what
your options are.

If I've left out anything, let me know.

Glenn

PS: If you haven't yet checked out the Armor Table that James Garriss=
 and I
together, I do recommend it: <http://cs.odu.edu/~garriss/t4/armor.htm>.=
 All
the Armor ratings by weapon type and armor type, for all T4 and CT=
 armors,
arranged for convenient use in combat. Includes armor coatings. Feedback=
 to
Jim at <jpg@langley.mitre.org>.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

ATTACK DMs: Quick Reference Sheet:

Hand-to-Hand Attack DMs:

Stationary Target:  DM+3 to hit.
Prone Target: DM+3 to hit.
Armed Attack vs. Armed Defender: defender's weapon skill =3D negative=
 DM.
Target Using Pure Defense: opposed task rolls.
Thrown Attack vs Pure Defense: opposed task rolls: Dex + applicable=
 skill +
roll, highest wins.

Ranged Attack DMs:

Prone Target: (Range Number x 2) =3D negative DM to hit.
Evading Target: Range Number =3D negative DM to hit.
Snapfire: weapon's range DM not used.
Aimed Fire: weapon's range DM is used.
Autofire: Primary target: weapon's range DM;
   Adjacent targets: double weapon's range DMs.
Suppression Fire: double weapon's range DM.
Indirect Fire vs known target completely Covered: Difficult task=
 (3D).
=46iring into Hand-to-Hand Combat: DM-3, if miss: roll to hit random=
 adjacent
figure.
Total Darkness/Night: DM-9 beyond short range.
Partial Darkness: DM-9 beyond medium range.
Target Firing from behind cover: DM-4.
Target Concealed: DM-4.
Target Firing from concealment: DM-1.

All Attacks:

Small Targets: basketball-sized or smaller: DM-3.
Large Targets: ground car or larger: DM+3.
Armor/Effective Dex. & End. Penalties: See Armor table.
Multiple Actions: Dex =F7 # of actions (round down) + skill DM.
Called Shots:=20
   Increased damage attack (shots to vitals): DM-5 for double damage;=
 DM-9
for triple damage.
   Decreased damage attack: DM-3 for half damage; DM-6 for minimum=
 damage,
does 1 pt./die.
   Attack to Disarm: DM-6, otherwise normal.
Tactical Aid:  DM+1 for each Tactics skill point used.
=46atigue: If Fatigue =3D End.: DM-1. Fatigue =3D 2xEnd,  DM-2, etc.
Encumbrance: Double Load: -1 to effective Str., Dex,. End.
Encumbrance: Triple Load: -2 to effective Str., Dex., End.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
MOVEMENT/ACTION OPTIONS
[Movement and Actions are not necessarily limited to these categories]

Typical Movement Status Options:

        Walk
        Run
        Crawl
        Stationary
        Standing Leap/Broad Jump
        Running Broad Jump

Typical Action Status Options:

        Go Prone
        Stand Up
        Evade (while moving)
        Strike (Hand to Hand)
        Hold Actions
        Draw
        Reload
        Multiple Actions

Typical Hand to Hand Attack Options:

        Unarmed Strike
        Grapple
        Wrestle
        Tackle
        Armed Defense
        Pure Defense
        Attack to Stun

Typical Ranged Attack Options:

        Snapfire
        Aimed Fire
        Autofire
        Suppression Fire
        Bow Attack
        Throw
        Indirect Fire
        Called Shot for Increased Damage
        Called Shot for Decreased Damage
        Attack to Disarm
 =20






------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 2 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 482

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: The Archaean Thesis (longish)
         2. Re: Naval Bases
         3. vaccum protection
         4. Thrust and Pressure errata
         5. Re: Base-64 & UU/XX
         6. Re: Jump Space Radio
         7. Re: RPG Babes..
         8. Re: Tech Schools repost - MIME stuff
         9. Re: Naval Bases
        10. TCS
        11. Re: RPG Babes..
        12. Books
        13. Re: [T96#473] Pity the Poor Steward
        14. Re: [T96#471] Great Reading!
        15. Re: [T96#470] Transhumanism
        16. Re: [T96#470] Roleplaying vs. Skills
        17. Re: TCS
        18. RE: MIME
        19. Subject: T4/T1-3 incompatibility & copyright concerns

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 14:54:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: The Archaean Thesis (longish)

"Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com> sez,

>Michael Barry said:
>>>>
>     *THE ARCHAEAN THESIS*
><mega-snip>
>     Discussion? Comments? Even flames are welcome these days...
><<<
>
>I *like* it Barry!

Yes! Nice work.

[snippage]

>  Signal GK was a really great resource, but it made public knowledge the 
>deepest secret of the GDW Imperium backdrop -- <sigh>.

Which is why, in my old CT campaign, I secretly decided that the Droyne
hypothesis was just as wrong phlogiston theory. The players were terribly
confused - kept coming across evidence that contradicted the Droyne-did-it
idea. Heh heh heh...

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
 "I see it now! Madness IS the way!" -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: Scott Ripley <abiscott@pop.erols.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 15:07:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

At 05:25 PM 10/2/96 +0200, you wrote:
>Ed Dowgiallo writes:
>
>> How large a fleet do the Sword Worlds possess? How large for the 
>> Darrians? What would be the typical squadron stationed at a naval base?
>
>
>We don't know much about the Darrian Confederation navy, except that there
>is a permanet one. Since it is a confederation I suggest that you split the 
>individual planetary budgets into defensive ships, local jump-capable ships, 
>and Confederation Navy ships. There is also several squadrons of TL 16 ships, 
>but the Darrians hoard those and wouldn't expose them to danger unless 
>absolutely necessary.
>
>
> 
According to my rememberances, the "Central Darrian Fleet" consists of 5
squadrons of refurbished
TL 16 Capitol ships and the Star Trigger, a device to detonate suns into
huge novas.  Each world provides it's own
system defense, and by 1105, the Darrian base Tech had regained TL 13
(probably TL10 at Mileau 0), with the "flagship" of each
fleet equipped with 1 TL 16 component.

------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 16:42:23 +1300
Subject: vaccum protection

A few digests back it was mentioned, in relation to atmosphere venting, 
that an astronaut had reported a puncture in the glove of his suit and 
had only suffered the dry freezing effects of a space vaccum. This was 
used as part of an argument that the effects of zero-pressure on the 
humn body had been overstated.
 
Let me just say that a vaccum protection suit would not be of much use 
if it was to vent its atmosphere witha single small puncture in the 
gloev. The life support system of a vaccum suit would be capable of 
adjusting its "refresh" rate to allow for any loss of pressure (within 
limits). If the life suuport was maintained external to the suit ie. by 
the ships life support via an umbilical, such a condition could be 
maintained for a long period of time.

 I believe also it was said that the surface of the astronauts hand was 
forced up against the puncture effectively sealing the hole, just as 
ones hand gets stuck to a vaccum cleaner knozzle when passed by it. 
Obviously this will not always happen.


------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 15:15:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Thrust and Pressure errata

Hi.

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 00:23:35 PST
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #470

>>>Consider that by his formula, opening a bottle of pop (at something
>>>like 50-75 psi) should knock you over. It doesn't.
>>
>> Hmm... Most of the pressure escapes when the lid is first cracked open
>> (very small hole area), before the top comes off. The pressure
>> disappears so fast, that the total impulse (force times time) is too low
>> to knock you over.

>So make it champange. :-)

OK, good comeback. Let's make it champaign. 8^)

Assume a surface area of the hole of about 1 square inch giving us a
good 75 lbs of thrust. Now assume that the volume of the gas in the
bottle is about 4 cubic inches. (I think that these are over-estimates,
but I want my argument to be leak-tight.) Since the gas in the bottle is
carbon dioxide, I should use a "u" of about 400m/s instead of 500. (A
reminder: my half life formula was Halflife = (0.7) * (Volume/Area) /
"u.") This gives us a halflife of 175 /microseconds/. 

This thrust (75 lbs) integrated over the lifetime of the pressure in the
bottle yields a total impulse of 0.083 kg m/s. So getting hit by this
bugger's cork would be the impulse equivalent of getting hit by a 5 gram
bullet flying 17 meters per second (56 ft/s). This might make you say
ouch (especially if it hit you in the eye), but it would NOT "knock you
over."

Conversely, holding onto the bottle while opening it would affect you no
more than holding onto the hypothetical gun that fired that hypothetical
slow bullet. Such a gun would have negligible recoil!

>>
>> If you did this calculation using the ideal gas laws, you should get the
>> same value for the thrust that I did (Thrust = Pressure times Area).
>> Because that is how pressure is originally derived in the ideal gas model.
>
>I think I figured out the problem. It's the lack of a nozzle that kills
>the thrust. Some of those molecules will be exiting almost parallel to
>the hull, others at right angles, and all angles between these two
>extremes. So only the portion of the "pressure" or velocity that is at
>right angles to the hull will actually go towards moving the ship.

Except that the ideal gas law calculates the pressure based only on
those components of the molecular velocity that are at right angles to
the hull. So this problem has already been dealt with just by using the
ideal gas law.

8^(  8^(  8^(  8^(  8^(  8^(  8^(  8^(  8^(  8^(  8^(  8^(  8^(  8^(  

Oops, I just realized, that in the ideal gas law, the molecules are
elastic; they rebound with as much momentum as they impact. This means
that my formula for thrust is off by a factor of 2. (Obviously, the gas
molecules cannot rebound off of a hole.)^8

The correct formula is :

	Thrust = (Pressure) * (Area) / 2

My mistake. Sorry. 8^(

(BTW, halve the values for the champaign's thrust, and the hypothetical
bullet's velocity, in the argument above.)

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 13:59:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Base-64 & UU/XX

Many editors have the ability to import a file.  In vi, it's :r filename.
I assume that Pico (Pine's default editor) has the same capability.  Also,
check the Pine settings for some kind of encoding settings.

On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Thanasis Kinias wrote:
> (Off-topic but relevant)
> 
> I understand the complaints about encoded text; it is a royal pain to
> read with many EMail progs.  However, _pine_'s designers did not see fit
> to include a simple means of pasting in outside text files.  The solution
> I suggest to Mr.  Adams and others confined to VT100-based access is to
> use _sendmail_ (sendmail [address] < [filename]) to mail the file to
> yourself, then forward it to the list.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 14:35:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Jump Space Radio

On 2 Oct 1996, Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:

> >Nice work. :)   Such things make the game a lot more interesting, IMO.  
> >They add depth.  The story itself may be riveting, but it still benefits 
> >from such side-lights.
> 
> Aaahhh, you just liked it because of the PC's name...

Steve,

Well...yeah, wasn't that obvious?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 07:54:03 +1300
Subject: Re: RPG Babes..

> 
>         I think it's good that Traveller isn't going down the exploitative
> path that White Wolf and other game companies have tread. maybe I'm somewhat
> sensitive to this because out of the 7 people in my regular gaming group, 3
> are female, 1 of which is my wife. (her name appears above). I just think
> that everyone is due some basic respect. HOWEVER...
>         ...sex is a topic of discussion everytime we play. If it isn't us
> joking about it. it's one of the characters looking for it...or getting
> it...or NOT getting it, which can be funnier. We're all adults; if there
> were younger kids playing, we obviously wouldn't be engaging in this sort of
> hilarity.

- -----------------

I think we are getting onto something interesting here. I am a Role-play 
gamer raised in a tradition of no female players. This was not a rule, 
it was just that no female would be seen dead playing RPGs with us. 
Role-playing was, and still is, largely considered anti-social in New 
Zealand. Female playesr are still quite rare.
My question is; How often would players in your games play female 
characters?


------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 13:32:29 -0700
Subject: Re: Tech Schools repost - MIME stuff

I too have problems with MIME stuff.  My mail program (AIR Mail) reads it as ASCII.  In 
order to read it I have to save the file & run WinCode to view the attached file.  I can 
read it, just a few hoops to go thru first is all.

Matt

------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 17:00:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

At 3:07 PM -0400 10/2/96, Scott Ripley wrote:
>According to my rememberances, the "Central Darrian Fleet" consists of 5
>squadrons of refurbished
>TL 16 Capitol ships and the Star Trigger, a device to detonate suns into
>huge novas.  Each world provides it's own
>system defense, and by 1105, the Darrian base Tech had regained TL 13
>(probably TL10 at Mileau 0), with the "flagship" of each
>fleet equipped with 1 TL 16 component.

As I recall, the Star Trigger only sets off a massive flare, whose emp
pulse hammered Darrian civilization.

I'd assume that current Darrian shipbuilding regulations call for *high*
radiation resistance.


Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that
will reach to himself"
 -- Thomas Paine



------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 17:01:33 -0400
Subject: TCS

All this talk of Naval bases has made me interested in running a TCS game
again - does anyone out there have a copy they'd be willing to part with?

Joseph Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

"Zathras have sad life; probably have sad death.  But, at least is symmetry..."

PGP 2048bit-Fingerprint: F8 A2 A5 15 56 42 9B 16  3F BD 57 0F 8A ED E3 21



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 16:17:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: RPG Babes..

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Simon John Harding wrote:

> I think we are getting onto something interesting here. I am a Role-play 
> gamer raised in a tradition of no female players. This was not a rule, 
> it was just that no female would be seen dead playing RPGs with us. 
> Role-playing was, and still is, largely considered anti-social in New 
> Zealand. Female playesr are still quite rare.
> My question is; How often would players in your games play female 
> characters?

Male players almost never played female characters in my games.  I can 
think of only three female PCs that were played by males.  

On the other hand, as referee, I've had occasion to play numerous female 
NPCs.  My campaigns tend to emphasize relationships between characters, 
and male-female relationships provide a multitude of situations to 
explore. 

'Course, at first my female characters were stereotypical (as were all of 
my characters, of course - the big, strong, dumb guy; the wizened old 
mage; etc.), but I like to flatter myself that I've gotten better at it 
over the years.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 2 Oct 96 13:45:34 MS
Subject: Books

Joel Lovell said:

>>>I just finished reading David Feintuch's new science fiction series, and I
can't even begin to tell you just how good these stories were - I rate them
amoung one of the absolute _best_ reads I've had in years.  Just from
reading these books I felt the itch to run traveller.
MIDSHIPMAN'S HOPE
CHALLENGERS HOPE
PRISONER'S HOPE
FISHERMAN'S HOPE
<<<

That is weird; I just bought the five books (the latest being Voices of Hope) 
and read them last week.  I did enjoy them very much, but I found the books to 
be very non-Traveller in terms of technology, attitude of the characters and 
general "feel."   Not just the selection of technology, but the ways in which 
it was used; it seemed closer to 2300AD in that respect.

I think the Pournelle CoDominum stuff is the closest Sci Fi to the Traveller 
Universe, and Anderson's Flandry series is right in there also.  I wonder if 
there are going to be any more CoDominium books?


Steve Charlton

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 96 17:30:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#473] Pity the Poor Steward

T::>Well, this is what I'm doing now.  The steward is a combination or his
 ::>Perception, Carousing, and Leadership skills, as well as his Endurance and
 ::>Intelligence.  I was wondering what skills others think might be necessary,
 ::>or adventageous for a steward?

 I'd probably toss in either Business or Admin, though it's not
 needed at a high level.  The really top-notch stewards may also
 have a half-level or so of Psychology.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ C, the power of ASM with the flexibility of ASM


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 96 17:30:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#471] Great Reading!

Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> writes

T::>Well, I will admit that I am NOT the most well read sci-fi fan, but I have
 ::>read a bit, and I am amazed that one of my FAVORITE selections has not been
 ::>mentioned.  Yes, I know this selection has little Traveller feel to it, but
 ::>others have admited that their selections were not very Travelleresque.  My
 ::>favorites are Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat books.  I said that they
 ::>weren't very Traveller, but I think I was wrong.  They are definitely not
 ::>HARD, HARD Sci-Fi, but they are good (IMNSHO).  Some great adventures can be
 ::>gleaned from the pages.  Just my 2 bits.

 Yes, I'll agree with you on the Stainless Steel Rat - not my
 _favorite_, but reasonably good.  Ditto the Deathworld trilogy.

 Thinking about the Stainless Steel Rat, it occurs to me that
 "The Stainless Steel Rat for President" is a wonderful
 adventure for Traveller...

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Friends don't let friends use Apples.


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 96 17:30:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#470] Transhumanism

T::>A problem I've worried about myself. Novelists can get away with levels of
 ::>weirdness which GMs can't, partly because games are interactive:; they
 ::>players keep interrupting with "Huh? What?"

 On the exceedingly rare occasions when I've wanted to run a
 "doublepluswierd" session, I usually take a few minutes
 beforehand to explain some of the more graphic wierdnesses.  I
 justify this as being information that the PCs would have
 coming into the game; unless the players have read the same
 books, and noticed the same things I have, they won't have the
 info unless I do this.

T::>>Also try Eon and Eternity by Greg Bear and Michael Swanwick's novel Vacuum
 ::>>Flowers.

T::>Lots of influence from _Eon_ in the background I'm working up; the Hexamon
 ::>is one of the best, most consistent ultra-high-tech societies I've seen
 ::>dipicted in SF. Gotta have "picting" in my game somehow.

 Yes, I like this as well.  Incidentally, there's a prequel to
 Eon out now, "Legacy".  As I recall, it focusses on a
 particular mission that Olmy undertook for the Hexamon many
 years prior to the reoccupation of Thistledown (the events
 related in Eon).

 ::>                                                         And I liked
 ::>_Vacuum Flowers_ a lot. The orbital slums in particular. Swanwick clearly
 ::>knows something about cultural anthropology and does a great job of
 ::>inventing weirdly organized societies.

 I will have to look into finding a copy of this.

T::>>So, how would you run a post-human game which players can truly grasp and
 ::>>be a part of?

T::>The way to do it, I think, is to go slow. Don't throw everything at the
 ::>players at once. Start them off all playing orthomorph humans, on some
 ::>basically familiar Travelleresque spaceship/station/whatever, and let them
 ::>discover the rest of the universe bit by bit, one NPC, one world, one
 ::>measured dose of culture shock at a time. (That's the *theory*, at any
 ::>rate...)

T::>It helps that many of my player friends have read many of the same books
 ::>I've read  :)

T::>>I'd also love to see some more of your ideas on what such a setting should be
 ::>>like.

T::>Well, I'll be posting my ideas here from time to time. For instance, I'm
 ::>working up a document on the history of cloneworlds in my campaign. Just
 ::>scribbling notes yesterday I came up with about seven distinct variants of
 ::>clone-dominated societies. I can post it here when I'm done if anyone's
 ::>interested. (For all I know I'm reinventing the wheel for the sixteenth
 ::>time...)

 Oooh, Oooh, me, ME!  <whoops, sorry>  Why not write them up for
 <plug plug> Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported
 Traveller Resource?  This is the kind of stuff I'd love to see
 published.

T::>>I recommend that nanotech be avoided in such a setting.  It has the
 ::>>potential to very easily become the "everything device" and make most
 ::>>gaming scenarios rather pointless.

 Yah.  Nanotech is definitely a deus/diablus ex machina in too
 much SF.  Just like the Transporter and the Holodeck in Star
 Trek.  If I were the manufacturer, I'd recall the damn things.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ I'm sorry - my karma just ran over your dogma


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 96 17:30:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#470] Roleplaying vs. Skills

Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com> writes

T::>I try to strike a balance, but I almost always greatly reward good role
 ::>playing skills.  Often this may be as simple as a DM, for instance if a
 ::>player says:

T::>"I use my bribery-3 and 1000 credits to bribe the inspecotr"

T::>I will basically rely on skill alone.

 If I know that the player has some acting/storytelling/etc.
 ability, I'll take that as a reminder of any appropriate DMs
 and ask him to roleplay the situation.  I occasionally do this
 with players that don't exhibit such ability; in doing so, I
 take into account not the _player's_ approach, but what the
 character would do with the indicated skill level, and after
 the player explains, I will sometimes recast the explanation in
 more facile terms.

T::>However, if the player also goes into some detail:

T::>"Syd Spaceman casually approaches the Inspector as he is running down the
 ::>checklist for the pending inspection of Syd's ship. 'Ah, it's good to see
 ::>the officials in this starport are so efficient, and so dilligent. I do
 ::>hope they compensate well for all of your efforts good sir....What?? You
 ::>are to have me believe that the pay here for one such as yourself is less
 ::>than desirable? Now that is just wrong....perhaps there is some way I can
 ::>help? Perhaps....we could help each other....you see some of my papers
 ::>seem to have been...ah...misplaced, and the fees and fines involved in
 ::>fixing that run well into the thousands, even tens of thousands...perhaps
 ::>you could assist me and tell me if there is any way we could say, cut the
 ::>red tape? I would be perfectly willing to compensate you for your time in
 ::>this matter, you know, helping me sort this out. I am so terrible with
 ::>paperwork,  am always forgetting something..."

 Syd is taking the wrong approach.  What he should do is discuss
 with the Inspector the possibility of contracting with the
 Inspector privately to learn how best to deal with the
 paperwork in question.  It's got a bit more of a figleaf of
 legality (depending on any conflict-of-interest regulations
 that may apply to the Inspector), and if the Inspector is
 sharp, he'll be able to milk Syd for a few more credits.

T::>This is admittedly transparant, but is an off the cuff example of what
 ::>might gain a player a +1 or +2 Dm to their bribery roll...provided of
 ::>course that they are playing in charracter.

 That's about how I like to do it, as well - although I use the
 story to modify the Inspector's reaction, rather than Syd's
 attempt, which is really solely dependent on the skill.  Bad or
 inappropriate roleplaying will result in a "thug" Inspector -
 "All right, gimme it, I'll take care of it for you" with maybe
 a double cross for particularly bad or inappropriate role
 playing, while a smooth, suave presentation could get Syd a
 slightly lower price, and "Of course, sir, I'm sorry you're
 having problems; please, just have a seat right here, and I'll
 see what I can do to expedite this..."

T::>As in all things as a ref, I have found that discretion and balance is the
 ::>key, I also don't want to penalize those whose role playing abilities are
 ::>not as advanced as others. I would rather help them and encourage them to
 ::>get more into character than to punish them.  Its all about having fun
 ::>after all :)

 Yep, and that's also what I strive for.  I make allowances in
 the above for the shy player who stutters when talking to his
 reflection in the mirror, and I _never_ force someone to do
 what they really don't want to.  Most of my players have had
 fun trying, even when their public speaking is worse than my
 public or private singing (and that's saying something).

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Prepare for tomorrow -- get ready.


------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 17:55:48 +0000
Subject: Re: TCS

Joe Block wrote:
> 
> All this talk of Naval bases has made me interested in running a TCS game
> again - does anyone out there have a copy they'd be willing to part with?

I just got a post of the basics...interested in that?

It would give ya the basics to work with

------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 15:03:58 -0700
Subject: RE: MIME

Gerald said
Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com> wrote:
> Moin Darryl Adams said	Sorry : THIS IS A FLAME !
> >	please dont post mime here, [ ... ]
> 
> Why should your limitations effect the rest of us?

Okay I always regret a flame I contribute to. I hereby rescind my previous comment with my question adequately answered.


------------------------------

From: HDHale@aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 18:53:12 -0400
Subject: Subject: T4/T1-3 incompatibility & copyright concerns

Jim Vassilakos writes:

>I find it sort of odd that they didn't make any attempt to match the
>old material. It is a very curious decision on their part. Clearly, they
>must have had access to this material. I'm sure GDW got a copy 
>of everything that DGP ever put out for Traveller, and when the rights 
>transferred to Marc Miller, it would only make sense that he'd be the 
>person to get the huge pile-o-stuff that must have been piling-up in 
>their library.

   The material that DGP produced went to GDW.  The individuals responsible
for producing T4 were not with GDW when the DGP stuff (or at least the bulk
of it) was produced.  As for the "huge pile-o-stuff", it is my understanding
that Frank Chadwick sold most of the existing stock off before GDW went
under, and that Marc Miller actually inherited very little of it.  I doubt
that any DGP publications were in the materials Frank handed off to Marc in
any case.  Chances are if any are still around, they are still in Frank's
possession.

   I will once again remind everyone that the reason that T4 resembles
classic Traveller so much is because the people producing T4 had little or
nothing to do with the production of MegaTraveller or TNE (some of them had
never even played Traveller prior to joining IG).  These are not people who
lived through the MT/TNE Traveller eras, and so their frame of reference for
Traveller is much different than someone who has been through the past ten
years of additions and rules changes.  The noteable exception to this in T4
is the ship design rules, and their TNE influence is as undeniable as the
fact that they were produced by FF&S enthusiasts.

>I'm wondering if, after the terror of the GDW/T$R lawsuit concerning
>Dangerous Journ[e]ys, Marc Miller & IG didn't decide to abandon from the
>"Canon" everything produced by a third-party (such as DGP) simply as
>a means of self-protection from future legal tricks. After all, if my
>facts on this are correct, IG doesn't own the old DGP material. Hence,
>they might feel obliged to render all this material (which was quite
>good, IMHO) non-official.

   I don't think it's a copyright issue.  It's more a matter of the writers
at IG not being aware of it (for the reasons I stated above), or simply not
caring what had been previously published, or both.

   With regard to the copyright--in the worst case scenario, the rights are
in limbo since the current owner of the DGP name probably doesn't have copy
permission from Marc Miller, and IG doesn't have permission to use the
uniquely DGP material that was included.  Certainly during the
Nilsen-Chadwick-Wiseman Regime (bet you didn't think that your name would be
used in relation to the word 'regime', eh Loren?  :-)  ), Dave Nilsen was
under the impression that GDW owned the rights, and he told me so in a phone
conversation I had with him.  Of course he was also under the impression that
DGP no longer existed, which as it turns out *was* true at the time, but
someone has since purchased the rights.

   In any event, the owner of the DGP copyright would have to press any
claims of copyright infringement, and given that they would be on some pretty
shaky legal ground, I doubt they would pursue it.

>I'm not saying that this is IG's or Marc Miller's mindset, but it would
>explain their actions to some degree, particularly if it turns out that
>the CT/MT "Atlas" was based on DGP-generated UWP data which 
>might well have been the case. 

   It was not.  "Atlas of the Imperium" predates the founding of DGP, or at
least DGP's assocation with GDW.

>I would be nice if IG would keep the T4 universe compatible with 
>previous editions of the official setting, however, it's small-beans 
>compared to the issue over whether or not they will give fans like 
>us the rights to share in the setting by sharing our own world 
>write-ups, character write-ups, adventures, starship designs, etc., 
>all (preferably) in the context of the official setting (which is the 
>reason behind my question concerning free-use of sector data). This
>is the question that, in my mind at least, is _most_ pressing. 

   While I can't speak officially for IG, so far neither IG or Marc Miller
has objected to the posting of materials related to the new setting (or any
previous official setting) to this mailing list, and in fact Marc Miller has
encouraged discussions in this forum related to the Cleon's proclaimation of
the Third Imperium.  According to IG, Web pages, newsletters, and fanzines
must have a copyright statement, but they have no objection to their
existence.  As far as making the things that appear here and elsewhere part
of the official setting, my suggestion is that if you post something and you
get some positive feedback on it, send it to IG or Sword of the Knight
Publications or one of the other official Traveller publishers and get it in
print.  Nothing becomes "canon" without becoming widely distributed and
accepted, and there's no better way to see that happens than to get your work
into an official publication.

Regards,

Harold






------------------------------

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Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 2 October 1996     Volume 1996 : Number 483

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: 2 arrivals! 
         2. Re: T4 Damage Values
         3. RE: The Archaean Thesis (longish)
         4. RE: The Archaean Thesis (longish)
         5. Re: Add ons for t4
         6. Re: Base \-64 & UU/XX
         7. Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills
         8. Re: What We Need (longish, ranting)
         9. Re: Naval Bases
        10. This maillist
        11. Re: A couple o' questions...
        12. Re: IG/T4 fundraising
        13. Re: Naval Bases
        14. Re: 2 arrivals!
        15. Re: RPG Babes..
        16. Re: Naval Bases
        17. Re: A couple o' questions...
        18. Re: This maillist
        19. Re: Subject: T4/T1-3 incompatibility & copyright concerns
        20. Re: Core subsector

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pauli <Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 96 09:00:18 +1000
Subject: Re: 2 arrivals! 

hi,

Timothy Collinson wrote:

>Yesterday, an autographed hardcover arrived in Gosport
>(depths of Southern England).  I'm dead chuffed.

>Day before yesterday Sarah Elizabeth arrived in Portsmouth
>(weighing 7lbs 1oz).  I'm so chuffed as to just have to let
>the whole world know!  (Does TML count as the 'whole' world?)

At least you put the Traveller notice first.  Guess your priorities are correct.  Congratulations for both significant events :-)

I'm still waiting for my hardback but my daughter is 3 months old and she sleeps through the night.




Pauli
- -- 
Paul Dale                       | Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au
Computer Centre                 | +61 77 814 551
James Cook University           |
Australia, 4811                 | Did you know that there are 42 two letter
                                |     words containing the letter 'a'?




------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 16:22:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Damage Values

    Penetration values for weapons in Traveller is an artifact of (I believe)
"Azhanti High Lightning" by way of MegaTraveller and TNE.  I wouldn't
be surprised to see it return in a future supplement, but as far as the
basic T4 book goes, there's no such thing.  Reading the appropriate 
descriptions, it seems that 1 Pen= 1D of damage would be a workable 
compromise/ errata fix.
     Of course, when/if I get around to running T4, I'll probably still just
use AHL for personal combat but hey, that's my prerogative!

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 96 23:40:21 UT
Subject: RE: The Archaean Thesis (longish)

Cool man Glenn Grant said:
>"Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com> sez,
>
>>  Signal GK was a really great resource, but it made public knowledge the 
>>deepest secret of the GDW Imperium backdrop -- <sigh>.
>
>Which is why, in my old CT campaign, I secretly decided that the Droyne
>hypothesis was just as wrong phlogiston theory. The players were terribly
>confused - kept coming across evidence that contradicted the Droyne-did-it
>idea. Heh heh heh...
>
>Glenn

Oh yeah, <gives Glenn a high five> waytago!!!  Tell me some of the things you 
came up with (alternatives, etc).

						---Boyd

				

------------------------------

From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 18:03:35 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: RE: The Archaean Thesis (longish)

On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

> Cool man Glenn Grant said:
> >"Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com> sez,
> >
> >>  Signal GK was a really great resource, but it made public knowledge the 
> >>deepest secret of the GDW Imperium backdrop -- <sigh>.
> >
> >Which is why, in my old CT campaign, I secretly decided that the Droyne
> >hypothesis was just as wrong phlogiston theory. The players were terribly
> >confused - kept coming across evidence that contradicted the Droyne-did-it
> >idea. Heh heh heh...

> Oh yeah, <gives Glenn a high five> waytago!!!  Tell me some of the things you 
> came up with (alternatives, etc).

It's rude to start a conversation and not finish it.

Give us DETAILS!!!

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 19:06:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Add ons for t4

On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Darryl Adams wrote:

> It could almost work, excpet that this makes Tech schools seem a lot more 
> powerful than collages. Maybe if you did it this way
> 
> 1 year : Skill only
> 2 years : Skill + a choice of +1 edu or second skill
> 3 years : 2 Skills and a choice of + 1 EDU or third skill
> 
> I does make it a bit of a pain, as i was looking at keeping it simple. 
> Maybe +1 EDU per 2 years is a better choice after all. 

That would work, too.  I was, however, thinking along the lines that Edu 
is used in a lot of task rolls.  This would, it appears to me, balance 
out the 2 skills per year (which, after all, is only 2 extra skills given 
that tech school only goes up to three years vs college's four years) 
rule for Tech schools.

Anyway, that's just me being picky.  In the end, it probably doesn't 
matter.  Your tech school rules are a good addition to the growing list 
of T4 optional rules.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 18:00:04 MST7
Subject: Re: Base \-64 & UU/XX

    Thanasis Kinias SAYS:
>I understand the complaints about encoded text; it is a royal pain to
>read with many EMail progs.  However, _pine_'s designers did not see
>fit to include a simple means of pasting in outside text files. 

But pine DOES support importing text files... I know, I use the 
program on a daily basis.

When you are in the message editor part of composing a message ^R 
imports a text file, it will even let you go out and search for it in 
your directories.  No pine does not support importing a file from the 
 computer acting as a terminal, but all you have to do is transfer 
the text file from your PC to the unix shell account, and pine can 
handle it from there.

Bruce Johnson

...absolutely my LAST post/e-mail on the matter!

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 01:10:59 GMT
Subject: Re: Roleplaying vs. Skills

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996 19:08:25 -0500 (CDT), Joe Walsh wrote:

> On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, James Lindsay wrote:
>=20
> [example snipped]
> > I would draw the line far before this.  I've played in games like =
this
> > where the player's role-playing skills and REAL LIFE knowledge were =
used
> > pretty much exclusively (the character sheets acted more like a
> > "background" for the character as opposed to the limits of his or her
> > abilities).  This also meant that the characters in one campaign =
seemed
> > more-or-less identical to ones in previous campaigns because all of =
the
> > *players* were the same (even though the character sheets stated
> > otherwise).
>=20
> James,
>=20
> I agree with what you are saying, and I'd like to add to that, if I =
may. =20
>=20
> Judging where to draw the line is definitely a balancing act.  On the =
one=20
> extreme, you have players who (as you note) are just "acting" the role =
of=20
> themselves w/ perhaps a bit of imaginary background thrown in.  On the=20
> other extreme, you have a bunch of statistics and a bunch of die =
rolling.

Actually, the scale I was referring to places "acting like yourself via
your character sheet" at one end and "truly getting 'into character' with
your character" at the other.  I was also referring to how different (or
similar) characters can be from their players and how much referees allow
player knowledge to become character knowledge.  These aspects of
roleplaying don't necessarily have any bearing on how dice are used :-)

> Ideally, every role-player would be a superlative actor.  Since this=20
> isn't the case, we have to make compromises.  Your've probably found a=20
> really good balance for your group, as have I for mine.  And, as has =
been=20
> said before, as long as folks are having fun, it doesn't matter where=20
> they draw the line on such things.

Ideally; but since this isn't so, you can begin to see my reasoning =
behind
not necessarily allowing a player's roleplaying skill and REAL LIFE
knowledge to effect their skill rolls.

> But, I would highly recommend that everyone at least /try/ the method =
of=20
> acting in character - pretending to know only what your character would=
=20
> know, pretending to have the mental limitations of the character, etc. =
 I=20
> also strongly recommend trying out different roles, rather than =
sticking=20
> to one or two standard personality "boilerplates," as we've all =
probably=20
> done at one time or another.
>=20
> If the role is played right, you can do away with a lot of die rolling.=
 =20
> If not, you either end up with poorly portrayed characters, or a whole=20
> lotta die rolling and little role-play.
>=20
> Is that similar to what you have found, James?

I guess the style of our group depends on who's playing and what the
general mood of the group is (not to mention if one of our payers brings =
a
few bottles of his homemade Mead... Yum!).

If a particular friend of the ref is in town for the weekend (he only =
shows
up maybe once or twice a year) and we decide to do some gaming, =
excitement
is generally the goal and die rolls are either not required or are =
reduced
to a bare minimum, just so everyone has a good time.  Since these =
campaigns
are usually only for a night or two, little effort is made in creating
characters, and they end up being more-or-less extensions of our own
personality.

Some games (like Amber) pride themselves on requiring *no* dice, relying =
on
the referee to do *ALL* the storytelling & decision making.  This, IMHO,
really only works well in a group that is even more interested in =
creating
a non-biased storyline than the referee.  This style of play is =
definitely
not for beginners and in no way guarantees that the game system will
produce good roleplaying (ie: by not relying on dice).  My problem with
this method is that all referees are human and humans can have all sorts =
of
non-gaming factors influence their decisions during a session.  Did the =
ref
have a bad day at work?  Did his roommate tape over his favourite episode
of Babylon 5?  Is such-and-such a player wearing a *bright* yellow
tracksuit (you happen to hate yellow, BTW :-) ?  While I do trust my
referee to provide me with an evening of non-biased entertainment, I =
don't
really like the idea of a human mind being the *only* thing that =
determines
whether a random event does occur, and to whom.  Dice are necessary for
this purpose.

Normally, our group of players create characters that (more-or-less) =
share
the same views on morality from campaign to campaign (eg: kind-hearted
players tend to stick to one side of the morality scale).  We have played
in short-run campaigns where we all started out as REAL NASTY types,
however, and a few players did have difficulty playing out these =
character
types (I was one of them).  The campaign progressed to the point that the
"mean 'n nasty" PCs were not nearly as bad as some of the other =
characters
in the campaign, which made the switch that much easier.  By the end of =
the
campaign, everyone was acting like Darth Vader in the final ten minutes =
of
"Return of the Jedi", becoming the most unlikely heroes of the campaign.

Acting in character definitely has its rewards.  However, the level of
"acting in character" must be set by the group as a whole.  Characters =
(and
the referee) also must know when things have gone too far.  We had one
player that insisted on acting out his character's voice, which was
extremely low and gravelly (lozenge?).  He also liked to run around the
room acting out what his character was doing (look out for that lamp!),
even though his verbal descriptions of his character's actions were =
crystal
clear.  Members of our gaming group don't usually physically act out our
character's actions due to the cramped conditions of the place where we
normally game, but we did began to talk in character after that.  Of
course, the player who started all of this had lost his voice and wasn't
nearly as much fun after that :-)

Our group prides itself on coming up with fresh, creative characters
(depending on the genre) for our campaigns.  Some games make this easier
than others, of course.

James W. Lindsay    Vancouver, British Columbia

"Ack! Icky plptht TAZ grunga yeek... PLPTHT!!!"
                             -Tasmanian Devil

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 20:24:06 -0700
Subject: Re: What We Need (longish, ranting)

Bill Rutherford wrote:
> 
> I agree completely wrt poster and pamphlet.  This sounds a bit like
> instructions to a *pusher*, but WE can help, too (if we agree that T4 is
> cool, happening, and the future of Traveller), by running games and
> convincing our gamers that T4 is, at $25, a bargain (certain TML comments
> notwithstanding).  We, the confirmed junkies, will (and did) buy it.  New
> blood has to spend money on it for it to succeed, which is where we come in
> - as prostlytes (sp?) and (shudder) salespeople.  - Bill

I tend to agree with the part on proset..prostel..what he said. I heard
some complaints on the amount of errata a couple days ago at my local
gaming store and offered to supply more current errata sheets from the
Web as they're developed (always sniffing for a discount). The
salespeople didn't seem to have a problem with it, copies are cheap (I
supply the initial copy; they do the rest), and hopefully it'll help
boost sales somewhat. BTW, if anyone knows any legal reason for me to
_not_ do this, *please* post it ASAP (is the errata copyrighted?).

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 20:26:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

Ed Dowgiallo wrote:
> 
> Anyone familiar with a Judge's Guild Traveller supplement called "50
> Starbases"?

Yep. I'm looking at it. Whatcha need?

------------------------------

From: Sean James Peter David <sdavid@sfu.ca>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 18:37:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: This maillist

Hello.
Someone has signed me up for this mail list, and I really don't care to
get all this mail. How do I get off this list?
Please respond ASAP.
Thank you.

------------------------------

From: Sean James Peter David <sdavid@sfu.ca>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 18:38:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: A couple o' questions...

How do I get off of this mail list?

I don't want anymore mail. Please help me.

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 20:44:20 -0700
Subject: Re: IG/T4 fundraising

Michael.Barry@finance.ausgovfinance.telememo.au wrote:
> 
>      Anybody got ideas for how our favourite company can raise more cash
>      (other than proofreading!)? Here's some to start:
> <snip>
>      5. Charge people money to name their children/pets after famous
>      Traveller characters, places and so on "Oh my god Norris, stop
>      smearing your $h*t on the wall! And leave Kinunir alone..."
> <snip>
>      Oh bugger it, the missus has started hitting me...

Don't recommend number 5. You got she just started? Try saying "My
lovely little Leviathan".

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 20:48:20 -0700
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> Consider the problems with trying to attack a base that is built into a
> nickel iron asteroid 20 km in diameter. The vital installations are in
> there *somewhere*, but where? The locations would be classified, and
> the transit tunnels/corridors would be laid out with an eye to making
> it hard to figure out where things were in relation to each other.
> 

Very true.  Consider the above carefully...now add 2-4 deep meson sites
opening up from behind meson screens synced to their fire patterns.
Pretty grim.

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 20:53:44 -0700
Subject: Re: 2 arrivals!

Timothy Collinson wrote:
> 
> Day before yesterday Sarah Elizabeth arrived in Portsmouth
> (weighing 7lbs 1oz).  I'm so chuffed as to just have to let
> the whole world know!  (Does TML count as the 'whole' world?)
>

Congratulations! You've started the best adventure of all.

------------------------------

From: Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 22:02:32 -0400
Subject: Re: RPG Babes..

Simon John Harding wrote:
> 
> >
> >         I think it's good that Traveller isn't going down the exploitative
> > path that White Wolf and other game companies have tread. maybe I'm somewhat
> > sensitive to this because out of the 7 people in my regular gaming group, 3
> > are female, 1 of which is my wife. (her name appears above). I just think
> > that everyone is due some basic respect. HOWEVER...
> >         ...sex is a topic of discussion everytime we play. If it isn't us
> > joking about it. it's one of the characters looking for it...or getting
> > it...or NOT getting it, which can be funnier. We're all adults; if there
> > were younger kids playing, we obviously wouldn't be engaging in this sort of
> > hilarity.
> 
> -----------------
> 
> I think we are getting onto something interesting here. I am a Role-play
> gamer raised in a tradition of no female players. This was not a rule,
> it was just that no female would be seen dead playing RPGs with us.
> Role-playing was, and still is, largely considered anti-social in New
> Zealand. Female playesr are still quite rare.
> My question is; How often would players in your games play female
> characters?

 If it will help We can look at My T4 Group. Males four, Females one,
ages 23 to 46. Of the five two of the Males play Females from time to
time. the rest never play anything but their own gender. I think this
ratio is right for most groups I have played with.

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 21:18:15 -0700
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> Ed Dowgiallo writes:
> 
> > How large a fleet do the Sword Worlds possess? How large for the
> > Darrians? What would be the typical squadron stationed at a naval base?
> 
> Based on what I can recall of TCS I can give you a few pointers:
> To calculate the size of one planet's navy: Multiply the number
> of citizens by 5000. Multiply by some factor (from 0.8 to 1.5 IIRC) to
> reflect the government type. I can't remember the table, sorry.

Just a minute..<flip><flip..ah ha!

           Government Percentage Modifiers
Govt Type   0    1    2    3    4    5    8    9    A    B    C    D
Peace      .5   .8   1.0  .9   .85  .95  1.1  1.15 1.2  1.1  1.2  .75
War        1.5  1.4  1.5  1.2  1.45 1.4  1.2  1.2  1.2  1.5  1.2  1.5

Notes
Type 6 pays the same rate as its parent; referees may decide the planet
is
being oppressed and set the rate somewhat higher - 1.5 is the max.
Type 7 (balkanized) pay different rates based on the different political
entities (countries or whatever).

The above is not intendeded to violate any rights of GDW or Far Future
Enterprises. If you get a chance to buy Trillion Credit Squadron, it's
worth
it (IMO).

------------------------------

From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 19:34:33 +0000
Subject: Re: A couple o' questions...

> From:          Sean James Peter David <sdavid@sfu.ca>
> Subject:       Re: A couple o' questions...
> To:            traveller@MPGN.COM
> Date:          Wed, 2 Oct 1996 18:38:25 -0700 (PDT)
> Reply-to:      traveller@MPGN.COM

> How do I get off of this mail list?
> 
> I don't want anymore mail. Please help me.
> 
> 

Send the following message to Majordomo@MPGN.COM

   unsubscribe traveller sdavid@sfu.ca

And David, do not keep sending the message or you will get flamed!

Suz
Suz Dollar
suzd@goodnet.com

*Nothing is really work, 
 unless you would rather
 be doing something else*
           --James M. Barrie

------------------------------

From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 19:34:33 +0000
Subject: Re: This maillist

> From:          Sean James Peter David <sdavid@sfu.ca>
> Subject:       This maillist
> To:            traveller@MPGN.COM
> Date:          Wed, 2 Oct 1996 18:37:00 -0700 (PDT)
> Reply-to:      traveller@MPGN.COM

> Hello.
> Someone has signed me up for this mail list, and I really don't care to
> get all this mail. How do I get off this list?
> Please respond ASAP.
> Thank

Send the following message to Majordomo@MPGN.COM

      unsubscribe traveller sdavid@sfu.ca

To be safe send a second message with the following:

      unsubscribe xboat sdavid@sfu.ca

There are two different lists so this should cover both.  If you are 
getting the digests also, write back and I'll give you that info 
also.

Suz 
Suz Dollar
suzd@goodnet.com

*Nothing is really work, 
 unless you would rather
 be doing something else*
           --James M. Barrie

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 21:56:17 -0700
Subject: Re: Subject: T4/T1-3 incompatibility & copyright concerns

HDHale@aol.com wrote:
>    While I can't speak officially for IG, so far neither IG or Marc Miller
> has objected to the posting of materials related to the new setting (or any
> previous official setting) to this mailing list, and in fact Marc Miller has
> encouraged discussions in this forum related to the Cleon's proclaimation of
> the Third Imperium.
>

Hear, hear! I enjoy pulling out the old stuff (especially DGP) exactly
because of the amount of background info available. Even if Marc or IG
does come out with objections, as has been posted previously, our
campaigns belong to us. I've been going through some things and found
the following in an article on cloning from DGP's Traveller Digest #12:

"Any sentient lifeform within the Imperial borders, regardless of its
origin, is a protected being, and thus a citizen of the Third Imperium"
- - Cleon Zhunastu, 17

"Is it right to allow someone to have a child for the express purpose of
supplying spare body parts? The Third Imperium calls this a highly
criminal act. Using a full-body clone for spare parts is no different.
It is a crime of the highest degree."
- - Cleon Zhunastu, 17

The future of the past from the man himself.

------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 20:11:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Core subsector

This was delayed a bit by a silly addressing problem on my end...

Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 13:12:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>

> From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
> Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 16:50:57 +0100
>
> The second problem I had with the Core map was the number of unexplored worlds
> in it - surely the Third Imperium - encompassing more than a sector in the
> year 0, has explored it's own back yard.

I haven't seen T4 yet, but have been following the discussion avidly.  
I've seen variants on the statement above several times, and couldn't 
bring myself to believe them...is it true?  Is the M0 background so 
seriously broken that we're expected to believe that a major military and 
merchant power, extending out across most of a sector, has *not explored* 
worlds in its own home *subsector* yet?  This would be like Spain 
discovering the New World in 1492, but not running across Portugal until 
1600!

I had difficulty swallowing the premise that Egyrn subsector was "unknown"
in the old Leviathan adventure, what with relatively busy, prosperous
District 268 and Mora subsectors of the Marches right next door, a month
or two away via J-2 or -3 if you took the scenic route.  This whole
Core-subsector thing completely blows my credibility circuit breakers.  If
it's true, I may not buy the game.  I feel insulted. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Author of Orb: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/orbinfo.html
   |    Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."




------------------------------

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Precedence: bulk


Traveller-digest          Thursday, 3 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 484

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Naval Bases
         2. Re: Errata distribution
         3. [none]
         4. Re: Various subjects, long, somewhat rantish.
         5. Transgendered RPGing
         6. Re: T4 combat lethality
         7. FFS questions. (longish)
         8. T4 HEPLAR fuel
         9. Re: Subject: T4/T1-3 incompatibility & copyright concerns
        10. Re: Base-64 & UU/XX
        11. Re: Add ons for t4
        12. Re: Re: FFS questions. Any gurus out there?
        13. Re: Unexplored regions...
        14. chuffed
        15. Re: T4 Combat
        16. Re: Naval Bases

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 20:12:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

This was delayed a bit by silly addressing errors on my end...

Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 12:03:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>

> From: Ed Dowgiallo <edowgial@prolog.net>
> Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 08:11:37 -0400
> 
> I guess I needed to be more specific. So far my group has a picture of a 
> naval base as being an extremely large craft in planetary orbit that is 
> an active and major piece of the system defense. We have sort of assumed 
> that in addition to being an orbiting fortress, that you can fly a 
> capital ship into one as in the later Star Trek movies and TNG.

I disagree strongly.  No sane military is going to put all their eggs in 
one basket like that.  I've always pictured a Traveller "naval base" 
system as having distributed *components* of the base scattered through 
the system -- docks and repair facilities in orbit around mainworld and 
gas giants, fuel refineries at the latter, HQ and logistics units on 
asteroids and small airless worlds for ease of access, bureaucratic and 
support functions on habitable worlds for comfort and simplicity, and so 
forth.  Each of these will be defended by SDBs, fixed guns, and so forth 
as appropriate; you'll also normally have a task force or two in-system 
to provide overall system defense at need.

> We are trying to prepare to play out a major space battle, where the 
> purpose of the battle is to destroy, disable, or capture said naval 
> base.

The danger of this happening is precisely why you don't build One Big 
Station.  For reference, see what that Skywalker twerp and his scuzzy 
rebel pals did to those lovely Great Big Deadly Spheres the Empire worked 
so hard to perfect...

> If not, what is a reasonable displacement? 100,000? 500,000? a million? 
> I am talking about a naval base for the Sword Worlds at this point.

The Sword Worlds operate on a shoestring budget, relatively speaking.  
I'd be very surprised to find them with naval installations in that size 
range.  Again, more likely their (few) capital ships are each larger than 
any of their fixed naval base components.  I picture a SW capital ship 
nosing its way near a cluster of space stations, small "drydocks", and so 
forth in orbit around, say, Gram, then just co-orbiting with the whole 
messy orbital flotilla while repairs, crew rotations, and so forth occur 
via small craft and the like.

> Would you expect the Sword Worlds base to have sensor satellites for 
> extended targetting? A space minefield of some kind to limit approaches?

Space minefields are nearly impossible to make work effectively.  Space 
is just too damn *big* to cover any reasonable percentage of approach 
paths adequately.  They definitely *would* have a good extended sensor 
net deployed throughout each of their major systems.

> Would it have a small number of very large weapons or a very large 
> number of point defense type weapons? It is, after all, primarily 
> defensive in purpose.

I would expect, at the Sword Worlds' TL (circa 1100, I'm presuming) that 
the defenses would consist largely of point defenses and SDBs, with a few 
larger PAWs and the like near the more important targets.  In the event 
of a serious battle, though, the fleets in-system would be expected to 
provide the bulk of the resistance; fixed defenses would be largely for 
harrassment and delaying value.

> How large a fleet do the Sword Worlds possess? How large for the 
> Darrians? What would be the typical squadron stationed at a naval base?

See "Fifth Frontier War" and other sources for SW; don't know about 
Darrians, but I'd expect it to be roughly on a par with the SW.  
"Typical" on-station force size would very much depend on circumstances 
(peace, tension, high tension, or open warfare).  For a major naval base 
in an important system, I might expect a BatRon, two or three CruRons, 
and a bunch of smaller ships.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Author of Orb: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/orbinfo.html
   |    Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 22:13:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Errata distribution

On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, David Joseph Smart wrote:

> I tend to agree with the part on proset..prostel..what he said. I heard
> some complaints on the amount of errata a couple days ago at my local
> gaming store and offered to supply more current errata sheets from the
> Web as they're developed (always sniffing for a discount). The
> salespeople didn't seem to have a problem with it, copies are cheap (I
> supply the initial copy; they do the rest), and hopefully it'll help
> boost sales somewhat. BTW, if anyone knows any legal reason for me to
> _not_ do this, *please* post it ASAP (is the errata copyrighted?).

I made errata sheets for my local stores as well, but before I 
distributed them I called Ken Whitman and asked whether it was OK to do 
so.  He said it was, so long as the standard copyright and trademark 
notices were included, and the sheet was provided free of charge, and 
never sold.

So, that's all you need to do to be all legal-like, as far as IG is 
concerned. 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Wolfy" <wolfbane@gnt.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 22:34:11 -0500
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe traveller-digest

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 22:38:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Various subjects, long, somewhat rantish.

Bruce -

Wow!  :)  Eloquent, hard-hitting, comprehensive...can't ask for much 
more in a post than that.  I'm only sorry that I can't add anything to what 
you said that wouldn't be redundant.

So, I'll just express my support for what you've said vis a vis "canon" 
vs. T4, and leave it at that.

Oh, and thanks for the post. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 02:53:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Transgendered RPGing

>From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz> asked,
[snip]
>My question is; How often would players in your games play female 
>characters?

Back in high school, it was not uncommon group for people to play PCs the
opposite sex. But they didn't often put much effort into the role.

One of my first long-term AD&D characters received a magical sex-change as
a result of a "cursed" altar in some abandoned temple. My NPC consort was
upset, not being bisexual, but then chose to touch the same altar and thus
be transformed into a man. My PC and the NPC changed our names to better
suit our new genders, and went on with our lives almost as if nothing had
happened.

The trouble started when she returned to the stronghold she was
constructing: her guards no longer recognized her at the gate. Took some
convincing to get in her own front door. Her followers and hirelings were a
bit weirded out; but a transsexual feif-holder was not so odd as some of
the other things walking the town's streets, thus no big deal...

I've always found it interesting to play a wide variety of character types,
genders, races, psychologies; and I encourage the players in my games to
stretch themselves. In my T4 game, I plan to give the players a set of
questions to consider during chargen. Things like: What's your gender?
Sexual preference? Racial background? Political stance? Religion? Family
background? etc.

It's an incredibly diverse universe out there. Or *should* be.

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
 "I see it now! Madness IS the way!" -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 02:53:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: T4 combat lethality

>From: Thanasis Kinias <tkinias@primenet.com>
[snip]
>The problem resides in the near-impossibility of a one-shot kill w/o using
>called shots.  A black-powder pistol is given a rating of 2.  This
>generates a _maximum_ damage of 12 which _cannot_ kill Joe Average (UPP
>777777).  A damage-4 shotgun is necessary to get a one-shot kill
>possibility, as the damage-3 maximum (T4 p.57) prevents even a TL-15 12cm
>APFSDSBSD round from killing a normal man.  Perhaps a crit roll would
>help this, or some sort of hit-location roll.
>
>What does TML think?

A hit-location roll, yup. That's what I used when running CT, and I plan to
use one in my T4 game.

For each successful hit, two dice are rolled, for tens and ones (i.e. a
two-digit number between 11-66). Consulting a hit location table, I note
where the hit occurred (sometimes it's understood that this is the most
serious of a group of hits). *If* that part of the body is armored, the
damage is reduced accordingly.

The table also lists specific types of injury, depending on location and
seriousness of the hit: a Superficial Wound (no stats to 0) to an arm or
hand can cause you to drop things you're carrying; to the head, stuns you
for a round, etc. A Minor Wound usually means internal bone fractures,
which can prevent players from running away, firing weapons, etc.;
sometimes it's a lung puncture or similar, something that might cause some
further damage. A Serious Wound can paralyze a PC with a spinal fracture,
or puncture major arteries. In the case of arteries or internal organs
being hit, the PC continues to receive damage due to bleeding, usually 1D
per round (2D in the case of a heart puncture. If they don't get medical
attention soon enough... well, that's war, soldier. (I usually rule that
any two sixes rolled during damage indicates a Critical Hit - the injury is
considered the same as a Major Wound, even if no stats are reduced to 0,
except that the PC is not rendered unconscious. Yowch.)

It can actually get rather gruesome, and at times I'll ignore the results
or won't go into much detail, just say "the guy you hit goes down and stays
there." I don't like the violence to get *too* graphic, but striving for
realism tends to lead in that direction. Also, it adds another roll to
every successful attack, so it slows things down. There are times when I
just ignore it and simplify things on the fly, such as when there are large
numbers of combatants.

This system is not really that much more lethal than the standard system,
so long as PCs get medical attention quickly. I suppose I could do
something to make it even more realistically deadly, but I don't want the
PCs to be *too* easy to kill. That would ruin the fun.

However, what the more detailed hit location system does is it makes the
damage taken more visceral and convincing; you don't just take "8 points to
your Endurance." You take "8 points to your Endurance, and a wound to your
<rattle clatter> knee, breaking your <clatter> left patella. And you fall
halfway down that flight of stairs, taking an extra point of damage.
Somebody better get a blanket on you before you go into shock."

So the lethality has only increased slightly. But the player's going to
remember that hit; he's really going to be more careful next time. And
maybe he'll have to get one of those 'dehumanizing' prosthetics, which he
can show off in the local Cyberjockey bar... :)

Does anybody else use a similar system?

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
 "I see it now! Madness IS the way!" -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 10:22:48 +0300
Subject: FFS questions. (longish)

Dave Murray wrote:

> If you supply enough power can you eliminate the need for HPGs in each
> weapon design?

        No. Required power would rise prohibitively high. However,
        there is other ways to eliminate HPGs.

        In most energy-based weapons, the energy pulse is discharged
        in very short time period (1e-6 - 1e-9 seconds). In practice
        this means that the output power is extremely high, and it
        would be almost impossible to build any practical energy weapon
        with corresponding power input.

        Example: 150 MJ laser discharges in 1e-6 seconds. The output
        power is (1.5e+8/1e-6 =3D) 1.5e+14 Watts. As the efficiency of
        grav-focus laser is 20%, this laser would need 7.5e+14 Watts
        power input to fire. This would be one hell of a continuous
        beam laser, but the wasted energy (6e+14 W) would melt the
        firing ship.

        However, it should be possible to build lasers without HPGs.
        While both 3G3 and FFS use some kind of fast storage system
        for laser pulse (capacitor, superconductor, HPG), I think that
        it could be possible to design quality-switched laser weapons
        where the pulse energy is stored in the laser tube, eliminating
        the need of additional storage system. The basic components of
        this kind of laser would be:

        Laser tube:     Cylinder filled with suitable material that
                        can produce laser when charged. A focusing
                        system is fixed at one end.
        Charger:        Flash tube of functionally equivalent system
                        which charges the atoms in the laser tube.
        Cooling system: System which removes the waste heat generated
                        by laser. Ideally this system should remove
                        all waste heat before next pulse is discharged.
        Battery:        External or internal battery pack.

        This laser would have to be quality-switched (Q-switch), which
        means that during charging laser tube would have high Q-value,
        and when trigger is pressed the Q-value would drop very low.
        (If I remembered in correct way around, high-quality laser can
        hold large amounts of energy in the laser tube, but discharges
        it slowly. Low quality laser can hold little energy in the
        laser tube, but can discharge it all in very short time.)

> Along the same lines why do Jump drives require std 'fuel'.  A jump engine
> just turns that fuel into energy to make a jump.  Why can't you provide
> that energy by other means?

        Traveller jumpdrive is oversimplified black-box system, and
        there is only vague descriptions of the jump space phenomenon.

        Using FFS, one could assume that jumpspace and subspace are
        the same thing, and Traveller ships need a also gate drive to
        enter and exit the subspace. A normal "jump" would thus mean
        using the ship's build-in gate drive to forma a gate around
        the ship (jump flash), manoeuvering though subspace using
        subspace drives, and using the gate drive to enter the normal
        space (jump flash). As Traveller ships do not have subspace
        sensors, the whole operation would have to be pre-plotted and
        carefully timed.

        If this model would be used, the normal Traveller jump drives
        would contain:

        Gate Drive:     Opens hole between n-space and subspace.
        HPG bank:       Stores the energy pulse needed by gate drive.
        Subspace drive: Moves ship through subspace.
        Fusion reactor: Powers the gate drive and subspace drive.
        Cooling system: Vents hydrogen coolant into subspace to
                        prevent the ship from melting. (That is,
                        assuming that this is the only way to cool
                        down the ship.)

        Basically it should be possible to use the ship=B4s normal power
        plant to power the gate and subspace drives. However, using
        this kind of "jump dives" would invalidate the 7-day jump time,
        and blast smoking holes into Traveller background.


        In my TNE campaign one of the major plots was the discovery of
        subspace sensors, ("The technology needed for this kind of
        sensor systems has existed for 3000 years, but the knowledge
        did not. This that we can discard the pre-plotted jumps and
        manouver freely...") and the characters have spend much time in
        the Wilds trying to recover lost data from old jumpdive
        experiments and accidents. (Some of these have been mentioned
        in old Traveller adventures and sourcebooks, such as "Project
        Farstar", Solomani expeditions to galactic arms, ships stuck
        in jumpsace in Abyss Rift, etc.)

        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :


------------------------------

From: Neil Taylor <neil@uk.gdscorp.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 09:45:21 +0100
Subject: T4 HEPLAR fuel

I recently got my T4 hardback and started in. One of the first sections I skimmed was
spaceships. I note that although it's mainly CT, we now have HEPLAR as a lower tech
M-drive.
Now the HEPLAR rules show a twin component unit: PP + fuel. Since the drive converts
fuel to ionised plasma and accellartes that for fuel, the first question I asked myself was:

"why do they stick to using l-hyd is the reaction mass for Heplar?"
"why not use Water instead?"

Trav ships are *volume* limited, not weight limited. There is an 
advantage to using water for reaction mass as it's 9 times as dense, 
so gives you 9 times the mass to chuck out for the same volume, and 9 
times duration on thrust. 

- --
- --------------------------------------------------+
- -- Neil Taylor              neil@uk.gdscorp.com --|
- -- Graphic Data Systems Ltd,                    --| 
- -- Wellington House, East Rd, Cambridge CB1 1BH --|
- --------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 02:18:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Subject: T4/T1-3 incompatibility & copyright concerns

     In answer to the "what came first: DGP or Atlas of the Imperium" 
question, I'm pretty sure that in one of the later issues of TD (where Joe
Fugate and Gary Thomas more-or-less interview one another) it mentions that
they bought "Atlas of the Imperium" and were fascinated by it, thought it
would be a great idea to make a campaign that crossed the entire map,
visiting all the important worlds: Vland, Capitol, Terra, Kusyu, etc. and
thus was born the idea for what became the "Traveller's Digest".
     That seems to pretty definitively settle that the info in "Atlas" was
not generated by DGP.

Trent Smith
P.S.  Now that it's no longer useful as "Canon," if anyone wants to get rid
of their copy of "Atlas," I'll gladly take it off your hands ;)
(after several years of pretty voracious back-collecting, it's one of the 
very few GDW-published books I still don't have)


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 18:10:03 PST
Subject: Re: Base-64 & UU/XX

In mail you write:

> (Off-topic but relevant)
>
> I understand the complaints about encoded text; it is a royal pain to
> read with many EMail progs.  However, _pine_'s designers did not see fit
> to include a simple means of pasting in outside text files.  The solution
> I suggest to Mr.  Adams and others confined to VT100-based access is to
> use _sendmail_ (sendmail [address] < [filename]) to mail the file to
> yourself, then forward it to the list.

Does pine have its own editor? Or does it use the standard editors on
the host? If the former, tell your terminal program to do an ASCII
upload. You'll have to fiddle with end-of-line delay and intercharacter
delay.

If it uses the standard editors, *they* can import files. Use kermit or
rz on the host to receive the files. Be sure to tell whichever you use
that you are sending atext file so that the EOL chars get translated
properly. 

I used "VT100" access for around 10 years and managed quite well by
using these methods. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 17:45:27 PST
Subject: Re: Add ons for t4

My main comment regarding the MIME message is this. 

Why?

The MIME inclusion contained *nothing* but text. So why was it sent as
MIME, rather than importing the text file into the posting?

I'm sorry, but since it *was* text, and as far as I could see, used
*no* special characters, the use of MIME was inappropriate.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: "David Murray" <DRM13@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 05:47:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: FFS questions. Any gurus out there?

> > I've been working on some TL 17+ designs lately and I have a good
question.
> 
> 	oh guy, start with 12 or 13.
>
I did start there 15 yrs ago and have been designing ships ever since.

> > If you supply enough power can you eliminate the need for HPGs in each
> > weapon design?  I know that HPGs must be in the design somewhere, to
handle
> > black globe power etc.  But at these TLs it takes more volume to store
> > energy in an HPG than it does to generate the same amount of power.
> 
> 	The PP provides a steady energy flux, but lasers and a lot
> 	of other things needs fast high peaks, so you need a buffer.
> 	The HPG is like an high tech condensator.
> 
At TL 17 a HPG can store 40 Mj of power per M^3, a antimatter PP can
generate 50 Mj per M^3 @ TL17.  If you take all power requirements on a
ship, install a PP large enough to deliver all of that power the need for a
HPG to 'store' power for that one 'peak' is not there.  Up to TL 17 it has
not been an issue since the best TL 16 PP can only generate 7 Mj per M^3.  
 If you take an electrical PP of today they don't have a huge array of
anything to take the 'peaks' of load off the PP, they just regulate the
speed of the turbines depending on load. 

The only reason I'm so interested in TL 17-18 is that I have a character I
rolled up years ago when MT first came out.  He is from a TL 18 world.  Ive
designed lots of stuff under MT but I've been trying to bring him up to
FFS, which allows more freedom of design.

Thanks for any input.
______________________________
Dave Murray
DRM13@worldnet.att.net

------------------------------

From: Bill Kokal <pacwck+@pitt.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 07:54:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Unexplored regions...

> 
> From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 20:11:53 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject: Re: Core subsector
> 
> This was delayed a bit by a silly addressing problem on my end...
> 
> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 13:12:47 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
> 
> > From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
> > Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 16:50:57 +0100
> >
> > The second problem I had with the Core map was the number of
> > unexplored worlds in it - surely the Third Imperium - encompassing
> > more than a sector in the year 0, has explored it's own back yard.
> 
> I haven't seen T4 yet, but have been following the discussion avidly.  
> I've seen variants on the statement above several times, and couldn't 
> bring myself to believe them...is it true?  Is the M0 background so 
> seriously broken that we're expected to believe that a major military and 
> merchant power, extending out across most of a sector, has *not explored* 
> worlds in its own home *subsector* yet?  This would be like Spain 
> discovering the New World in 1492, but not running across Portugal until 
> 1600!

I don't have T4 yet, but I started to think - what if the "unexplored"
regions were full of Dorsai-types, or someone who had a really good
defensive navy? A few times over the past couple of hundred years the
Syleans (now the Imperium) went sniffing around - and got thrashed.  I
think that would discourage exploration in that region.  Now, of course,
depending on your mindset, they could be ready to be toppled by an
industrious bunch of PC's - or the PC's could come back with a thrashing
as well...

Just random thoughts way too early in the morning....

(and, of course, I do not speak for my employer)

Bill


------------------------------

From: tc@library.solent.ac.uk (Timothy Collinson)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 96 13:20:13 GMT
Subject: chuffed

~EXTERNALFROM  : tc@library.solent.ac.uk
TO       : traveller@mpgn.com
SUBJECT  : chuffed
DATE     :  Thu Oct 3 13:14:06 GMT 1996
ADDRESS  : Mountbatten Library, Southampton Institute,
         : East Park Terrace, Southampton, SO14 OYN
         : UK
TELEPHONE: 01703 319248

Message is as follows:

Many thanks for the kind words re the arrival of Sarah.

Chuffed (for Stuart et al) is an adjective meaning 'pleased'
according to my dictionary.  'dead chuffed' is, of course,
the utter extreme of that.  (I was trying to convey my
excitement at getting my T4 book and that despite my
enthusiasm for it, Sarah took me waaaaay beyond that!)

I wanted a quintessentially English word to also convey the
'alienness' of some of us (most of us?).  Looking at a 7lb
human being reminded me just how weird we really are!

I like wheels within wheels too, but am better at them
in words than action.  (Though that may be a matter of
opinion).

Now can you guys keep the noise down, little one's asleep.

timothy

------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.micro.lucent.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 08:25:13 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 Combat

Thanasis Kinias <tkinias@primenet.com> wrote:
> Much has been discussed about to-hit possibilities under T4 rules, but
> what about lethality?  I understand that T4 is using CT's wound rules, but
> I'll blaspheme and say that GDW's T2k-based "house system" handled this
> better.

Funny, my experience with that system (through Traveller:2300) was
quite the opposite (but that's neither here nor there).

Actually, I thought CT was good in that regard since you were very
likely to be knocked unconscious by a single bullet unless you were
strong and/or athletic. If no vital organs are hit, then one bullet
probably shouldn't kill you immediately (although you'll probably
begin bleeding to death if you don't get medical help immediately).

You're right that a good hit should result in damage to a vital organ
(even if not a called shot). Without this, it's too unrealistic.

I remember a study on the effects of gunshots being posted to this
list at one time. The interesting thing was that a large percent of
people are taken down (due to system shock?) from even relatively-
minor gunshot wounds, but those that are still up after the first
bullet can take many more (unless they get shot in the head or heart
or someone uses a shotgun at point-blank range on them--ick).

If anything, perhaps there should be an additional pool of "hit
points" to draw from, as long as the first hit still reduces one
attribute and part of each future hit reduces attributes also.
Of course, critical hits would be essential to this scheme.

> A black-powder pistol is given a rating of 2.

I think we treated all bullet-type weapons as damage 3. The older
weapons were less accurate, less penetrating, and had shorter range,
that's all.

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /       Allentown, PA  18103-6209      O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

From: Scott Ripley <abiscott@pop.erols.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 08:46:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

At 05:00 PM 10/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 3:07 PM -0400 10/2/96, Scott Ripley wrote:
>>According to my rememberances, the "Central Darrian Fleet" consists of 5
>>squadrons of refurbished
>>TL 16 Capitol ships and the Star Trigger, a device to detonate suns into
>>huge novas.  Each world provides it's own
>>system defense, and by 1105, the Darrian base Tech had regained TL 13
>>(probably TL10 at Mileau 0), with the "flagship" of each
>>fleet equipped with 1 TL 16 component.
>
>As I recall, the Star Trigger only sets off a massive flare, whose emp
>pulse hammered Darrian civilization.
>
>I'd assume that current Darrian shipbuilding regulations call for *high*
>radiation resistance.
>
>
>Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
>
>"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
>oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that
>will reach to himself"
> -- Thomas Paine
>
>
>
>
No, the star trigger caused a nova in a system, which caused an EMP wave in
the entire Darrian Confederation, destroying ALL Electronics. 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #484
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Traveller-digest          Thursday, 3 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 485

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Thanks for the rant
         2. Re: Thanks for the rant
         3. chuffed -Reply
         4. Cleon and the Zhodani
         5. Re: Transgendered RPGing
         6. Re: T4 combat lethality
         7. Re: T4 HEPLAR fuel
         8. Re: T4 Add Ons
         9. Re: Base-64 & UU/XX
        10. Re: T4 Combat
        11. Re: T4 Add Ons
        12. IG's Future, Singed Traveller, Education, in fact everything...
        13. Time travel
        14. Re: Naval Bases
        15. Re: T4 HEPLAR fuel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dorn, Michael" <Michael_Dorn@dscc.dla.mil>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 08:54:24 -0400
Subject: Thanks for the rant

>"Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU> said on
> Wed, 2 Oct 1996 11:01:14 MST7
>Subject: Various subjects, long, somewhat rantish.
>
><long deletion>

>Don't bitch at IG for not supporting everything that came
>before...I think Marc stated quite clearly that T4 was intended to
>be a re-creation of CT 'in light of 20 years of gaming experience',
>not a game burdened down with 20 years of add-ons...that's like
>blaming Micr$oft for not supporting Win95 on a PC-XT. 
>
>	I guess it's pretty clear where I stand...I started GM'ing when
>both D&D and Traveller were still TLB's, none of the people I've
>ever played with or GM'ed thought a second about developing their
>own world(s).  You're the GM: your word is Law (say it with a
>Stallone-esque sneer "I YAM the LAW!") in your game.
>
>	I appreciate background material as much or more than the other
>guy, but I slip it into my universe, file off the serial numbers,
>re-paint it, and then trot it out with fake ID papers. It truly
>isn't that hard, and that way your players aren't ahead of you all
>the time.
>
<more deletion>
>
>	Comparing it to established Canon is also a mistake.  we've had the 
>long reign of the GDW church, and Marc has just nailed his '99 
>theses' to the door. Paraphrasing: "General historical stuff will stay pretty
>much 
>the same, but details will be clarified or expanded."
>
>	Canon is internally so inconsistent now, that maintaining absolute 
>fidelity is impossible. Besides how many of you 'Holy Canonists' out 
>there think Virus is NOT a heresy? Show of hands please?...
>
>	/rant mode -off
>
>My 0.02 Cr
>
>Bruce Johnson
>Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
>The University of Arizona
>johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 
>
>As if this place HAD any opinions...
>
Thank you for expressing my opinion about "canon" and by the way, here's
your 0.98 Cr change.

>Michael Dorn (No, not Worf)

------------------------------

From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:13:02 +0100
Subject: Re: Thanks for the rant

Michael Dorn writes quoting the entire article just to add:
> Thank you for expressing my opinion about "canon"

Is it that time of the year already?

			Chris.


------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 09:24:46 -0400
Subject: chuffed -Reply

>Many thanks for the kind words re the arrival of Sarah.

["chuffed" stuff snipped]

>Now can you guys keep the noise down, little one's asleep.

[whispering] congratulations!

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 09:37:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Cleon and the Zhodani

Hi.

Ethan Henry insulted my canon carrying creditials! 8^)

>From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
>Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 09:54:16 -0400
>Subject: Re: Archean Thesis

[...]

>> Cleon was so obsessed with pushing spinward because according to the
>> information of his archeologists and his IISS, the Spinward Marches were
>> the statistical center of the distribution of Ancient sites. He guessed
>> (correctly, as it turns out) that the Marches contained the Ancients'
>> homeworld. And he wanted to reach them before the perfidious Zhodani
>> did. 

>Hm. How could he have been racing the Zhodani to the Marches when the
>Marches
>are where the Imeprium met the Zhodani? The Zhodani fist contacted the
>3rd
>Imperium circa 500 3I, according to "Imperial Encyclopedia".
>(Ethan brandishes his canon wildly).

(Rob whips out his canon to parry.)

This was the first astrographic /contact/ between the 3rd Imperium and the 
Zhodani Consulate , but racial Solomani and racial Zhodani had /known/
about each other for quite some time before the founding of the 3rd
Imperium. The 1st Imperium had /some/ contact with the Zhdant-ites, and
Cleon's historians would have inherited at least some of this knowlege
(IMHO).

(Rob drops his old rusty canon and picks up a new shiny one...)

For an interesting twist very relevent to this discussion, take a look
at the Library Data in T4. Look up "Zhodani"...

- -Rob (looking over his shoulder for lurking, mysterious psionicists...)




------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 10:19:27 +0000
Subject: Re: Transgendered RPGing

Glenn Grant wrote:

> One of my first long-term AD&D characters received a magical sex-change as
> a result of a "cursed" altar in some abandoned temple. My NPC consort was
> upset, not being bisexual, but then chose to touch the same altar and thus
> be transformed into a man. My PC and the NPC changed our names to better
> suit our new genders, and went on with our lives almost as if nothing had
> happened.

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 10:21:41 +0000
Subject: Re: T4 combat lethality

Try Traveller's Digest No. 13

Great hit by location ideas therein

(actually it is rules for medical treatment, but it is one of the best HBL I have ever seen)

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 10:24:33 +0000
Subject: Re: T4 HEPLAR fuel

Neil Taylor wrote:

> "why do they stick to using l-hyd is the reaction mass for Heplar?"
> "why not use Water instead?"
> 
> Trav ships are *volume* limited, not weight limited. There is an
> advantage to using water for reaction mass as it's 9 times as dense,
> so gives you 9 times the mass to chuck out for the same volume, and 9
> times duration on thrust.

Actually, I was under the impression it was a system of "chuck it out the back and light it 
on fire" sort of thing
Water doesn't light well, and hydrogen  gives a great bang for your buck

------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 12:08:34 +1000
Subject: Re: T4 Add Ons

All this discussion about what a Technical School Career involves really
is a case of not seeing the forest for the trees, guys. Surely you can't
*really* believe that 1 level in a T4 Skill (or Characteristic) = 1 level
in any other T4 Skill/Characteristic?

I mean, seriously! How can you consider a character with Medicine-4
(which, AFAIR was what it took to qualifty as an MD in CTrav - don't think
it actually says one way or another in T4?) as having spent exactly the
same amount of time and effort in *their* studies as someone with
Pistol-4. Sorry, I don't care what anyone says, the Doctor has put in
*vastly* more study and practise than any damn gunsel. Yet, each one is
supposedly equal as far as you can tell from the way the system works.

So what's the problem with what Darryl wrote re Tech Schools - you just
assume that the Skills he suggests you gain are as skewed as the ones that
already exist in the Careers of T4.

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 11:07:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Base-64 & UU/XX

On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Thanasis Kinias wrote:
> 
> I understand the complaints about encoded text; it is a royal pain to
> read with many EMail progs.  However, _pine_'s designers did not see fit
> to include a simple means of pasting in outside text files.  The solution

   Not only that, but if I want to _read_, or even _save_, the included
file, I have to go through two or three extra steps to do so.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 11:13:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Combat

On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Thanasis Kinias wrote:
> 
> The problem resides in the near-impossibility of a one-shot kill w/o using
> called shots.  A black-powder pistol is given a rating of 2.  This
> generates a _maximum_ damage of 12 which _cannot_ kill Joe Average (UPP
> 777777).  A damage-4 shotgun is necessary to get a one-shot kill
> possibility, as the damage-3 maximum (T4 p.57) prevents even a TL-15 12cm
> APFSDSBSD round from killing a normal man.  Perhaps a crit roll would
> help this, or some sort of hit-location roll.

   There are a lot of people here who are thinking the same things you
are, and some (like me) like the TNE system (which mirrors T2K) as a
better solution. 

   I think you have to decide what you want your Traveller campaign to
look like. Maybe the question of low-lethality doesn't even enter into
some campaigns, there are a lot of GMs that role-play their combat without
hardly a glance at the character sheet...

   That being said, if your campaign is an, err, violent one, you might
want to look at multipliers, or use the TNE combat system. (which is only
marginally more lethal than CT but still better)

   To use multipliers, you need a hit location chart. Head hits get
triple, torso hits get double damage. Alternatively you can use the NPC
"quick-kill" chart from TNE.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 08:16:13 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 Add Ons

On  3 Oct 96 at 12:08, Phillip McGregor spewed:

> All this discussion about what a Technical School Career involves
> really is a case of not seeing the forest for the trees, guys.
> Surely you can't *really* believe that 1 level in a T4 Skill (or
> Characteristic) = 1 level in any other T4 Skill/Characteristic?

Why not???  Although it is comparing apples to oranges...

> I mean, seriously! How can you consider a character with Medicine-4

Medical-3 is an MD in CT...

> (which, AFAIR was what it took to qualifty as an MD in CTrav - don't
> think it actually says one way or another in T4?) as having spent
> exactly the same amount of time and effort in *their* studies as
> someone with Pistol-4. Sorry, I don't care what anyone says, the
> Doctor has put in *vastly* more study and practise than any damn

Questionable actually...  Somebody who has a Pistol-4 is going to 
devote a large amount of time to practice at every opportunity.  
That amount of time could very easily amount to a few hours, 
particularly if you consider maintenance of the weapon, time on the 
gun range, etc.  You don't turn firearms expertise off and on like a lightswitch.  
Just as a doctor would become technically incompetent without keeping 
up on medical literature, and actually doing his practice or 
research, a firearms expert who doesn't spend a lot of time on a gun 
range, or actually using/practicing his skill is going to develop 
rust...  Just because 1 skill is more physical and 1 is more mental 
doesn't mean that 1 person is going to work harder at maintaining 
his expertise...  Hell, doctors must be able to put a little bit of 
it on the back burner from time to time...  You see so many of them 
on the golf course once or twice a week...  :-) 

This brings up another point...  How can a guy maintain a skill level 
in skills that he has no opportunity to practice or use on a daily 
basis...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 16:02:30 +0100
Subject: IG's Future, Singed Traveller, Education, in fact everything...

GERMAN CONVENTIONS
- ------------------

kraehe@bakunin.north.de (Michael Koehne) mentioned the Frankfurt Book Fair.

BITS will be running the Traveller demos, etc. for OrkCon on 1-3 Nov in
Schweinfurt, Germany (Ken, Larry, etc. will be there). Unfortunately we
won't have a presence at Essen (Ken, etc. will be there, but in a "having a
look and wandering round" capacity), although our T4 adventure "The Long Way
Home" should be on sale courtesy of Colin Wheeler of Second Games Galore, if
not with any other Traveller sellers.

THE LONG WAY HOME
- -----------------
(In case you didn't know - the first licensed Milieu 0 adventure for T4)

For UK members of the list, this is available mail-order from BITS at 11.99
(non-members) or 9.99 (BITS members). P&P is 1.00 for the UK only. If you
want the book signed, or anything particular written in the front, just say
so. Please e-mail me for further details.

Air-mail overseas (e.g. the US) is a silly price, so I would advise
transatlantic readers to wait for the future print run from Sword of the
Knight (apologies for the dealy in initiating this).

SINGED HARDBACKS
- ----------------

Steven Ward <Steven.Ward@brunel.ac.uk> mentioned receiving his singed
hardback copy three weeks ago...

That's because Ken kindly dragged over some boxes of signed hardbacks for
BITS (we did a bulk order) back at the start of September for Euro GEN CON.
The singe-ing may be due to all the hot air I expelled hassling Ken or
perhaps because of having to sellotape the copies on the outside of the
transatlantic plane (Ken was trying to exceed his baggage allowance by about
2 tons!!!!).

T4 ERRATA - THE COMPLETE SET
- ----------------------------

E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK asked why T4's Core subsector didn't seem to
tie up with previously published materials.

I've not actually got that far through the book on my errata check, but I am
amalgamating a very detailed listing of minor errors (down to grammar and
spelling) and points which need some clarification, including stuff not
covered currently on the IG web site. When this is all done, and I've got
Marc and Ken to clarify the points I don't understand, then I'll post the stuff.

Craig Berry then went so far as to say:
>or two away via J-2 or -3 if you took the scenic route.  This whole
>Core-subsector thing completely blows my credibility circuit breakers.  If
>it's true, I may not buy the game.  I feel insulted.

WHOA! The Core subsector stuff is 2 pages out of 200. Let's face it, the
Exit Visa adventure is set in the Spinward Marches which isn't even known to
Milieu 0 and isn't detailed for the beginner who's just picked up the rule
book. I wouldn't call that a reason for not buying the book.

It has to be said that there are more errata than one would like, but in
general these are minor irritations and are inherent in bringing a rule book
such as this to market in such a short time.

I believe that the real reason why the Core subsector isn't 'according to
canon' is because Marc Miller has his own view of 'canon' and it doesn't
necessarily agree with everything that others (e.g. DGP) have published.
It's not a copyright issue - I believe IG can use DGP material provided it's
not quoted verbatim.

MODELLING AND CASTING
- ---------------------

Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com> said he was thinking of adding an area
to his web page (Ants, that is) with step by step mold making instructions...

I've also seen a web site by the Bare Metal Foil people at
http://www.gremlins.com/bmf/
which had some useful info on it - I've not visited this in a while, so
perhaps Merrick would care to dig through this?

EDUCATION
- ---------

Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> commented:
>So, you would agree that +1 edu per year in a technical school is too 
>much?  I'd say just add the skills, and leave Edu alone...or, perhaps add 
>+1 edu for 3 years.  What do you think?

I pointed out (at the proof-reading stage) to IG that getting +4 Edu for
attending College, added to the lack of clarity over whether any subsequent
schooling (Flight, Medical, whatever) added further Education, meant that
just by going to College a character could severely enhance all their
Edu-based skills. I advocated +1 Edu if they failed the perseverance roll,
+2 if they graduated, +3 if grad with hons.

SEX AND SEXISM
- --------------

HDHale@aol.com mentioned coming up with a new career: Prostitute.

Well, I'm not going to dig into this quagmire of cans of moral worms (you
know what I mean). Most fantasy & SF art is very sexist and hasn't changed
greatly over many years. If anyone wants to bring sex and sexuality into
their game, though the netbooks produced for AD&D over the years are
excellent in giving you a range of guidelines from how you can impress
someone with your appearance (whether that's a man or woman doing the
flirting), down to how well you perform on the night, or day, or in the
street, or car, or... anyway, if you want to go further, a friend has an
'oddities' table which you can use to determine if a character has any
'hang-ups' on particular things. This can range from adject phobias to
necrophilia.

HOWEVER, I would only advocate the use of such things in an ADULT game with
CONSENTING adults - even an adult group may contain gamers who - even if
they don't want to admit it openly - feel very uncomfortable handling such
subjects. Our AD&D group has had two pregnancies (in the game), our
Traveller group has more than one woman who has used her sexuality to good
effect in overcoming her enemies.

As Harold said, one can integrate adult themes (as in mature not porno).

BASE64 AND ALL THAT
- -------------------

Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au> said:
>BTW to the flammers :- Dont blame me if your mailer does not support 
>MIME. Pine supports it, so who am i to argue.

I know Darryl's retracted this, but I just wanted to make some general
points to the list at large...

<sound of soapbox being pulled out and dusted off>

This is not the correct attitude. This is the attitude that makes web page
designers put up Virtual Reality graphics on their web page and then wonder
why not everyone can read them (you must have Netscape 3.0, text-only
browsers are b*ggered, plus VRML support isn't available on Suns yet, so
many people using Netscape at work can't see this stuff either). On a lower
level, designers put fancy buttons, image maps, etc. as the ONLY links
around their site, without putting a text equivalent. Again, text-only
browsers, or those economy-minded souls who turn off the automatic
down-loading of images, can get very irritated.

People should bear in mind that many people are not as fortunate as
themselves and that you should always try to support the _minimum_ possible
standard, with anything extra being an add-on, and not being critical to a page.

Many people's mailers still don't support automatic decompression or
decoding of documents, and some  - although nominally supporting it - don't
do it correctly or don't always interpret documents correctly.

The ethos on this mailing list (unless Rob corrects me) has always been that
any post of sufficient size to require encoding should not be posted to the
list but should be placed on an FTP or Web site, or individually e-mailed to
people who are interested.

DARRYL'S TECHNICAL COLLAGE
- --------------------------

Nice to see some additions such as these, plus the extra skills he's started
adding on his web page. However, college has two Es in it. Currently
characters have the option of Technical Collage, which means sticking lots
of bits of something together to make a picture. "Hey Ed, have you finished
cutting up that Jump Drive manual yet - I need some more pieces for this
collage of Cleon..." :-)

IG GOING DOWN THE TUBES...
- --------------------------

...Is a load of twaddle. Ok, so advertising the game is not currently a
strong point, but in the UK, "arcane" did a huge feature on it, plus the
next Valkyrie is a Traveller-specific issue with reviews, features,
adventures, patrons, etc.

Here's a quick dump of what I sent to uk.games.roleplay when people were
bemoaning the lack of new blood in role-playing:

>        What I'd really like to know is does anyone have any 
>survay or anecdotal information about where new gamers are 
>comming from _now_ and for that matter how did they get into 
>the hobby.

Well, at the Traveller stand at Euro GEN CON, we unashamedly grabbed 
young children from their parents' arms and forced them to play 
Traveller. It seemed to work - some had looked quite dubiously at 
the games as they were dragged round by over-avid parents. After the 
games, they wanted to play more... that's the way to get them!

I'm hoping that through BITS (British Isles Traveller Support) and the 
efforts of the RPGA (TSR, etc.) that we'll be able to get more 
demonstration games (of various RPGs) back into shops, to encourage more 
people into the RPG arena. Events such as EGC are all well and good, but 
(I would think) are events for the 'confirmed gamers' rather than 
attracting new blood.

Another opportunity is radio, television, newspapers, etc. through news 
programs and the like. Basically, if anyone has contacts out there who 
want to record a piece on RPGs and how GOOD they are, rather than all 
this "Devil worship, Suicide" crud, then I for one would be more than 
willing to contribute some time to promoting RPGs (Traveller in particular :-)).

So, anyone out there got some useful contacts? Alternatively get out there
and start running some demo games yourselves. Any sensible shop with a
little space will be more than willing for you to do so since it will
attract in customers, whether or not they actually buy Traveller at the end...

Finally, I know IG has been a little delayed in getting things like JTAS and
Starships to the printers, but they've had plenty of stuff to sort out
business-wise of late, not to mention moving their office. Ken is currently
working on STRENGTHENING their financial backing to ensure that Traveller
isn't run on a shoestring but continues to be able to invest in quality
products. This should be seen as a very POSITIVE move. More information on
this next week, from the man himself...

THIRD PARTY PRODUCTION OF TRAVELLER STUFF
- -----------------------------------------

I'd like to reiterate what Harold said about IG's stance on this. From my
long discussions with Ken Whitman, I have found IG is very enthused about
anyone's attempts to produce stuff for Traveller. If you're going to send it
out, on the Web, e-mail or printed, then you need to ensure you have the
appropriate (c) notices, etc., but in my own experience IG are very helpful,
i.e.:

(1) When publishing the BITS/CORE Milieu 0 adventure "The Long Way Home",
there were some delays in checking with IG what the (c) notice on the back
had to include, but it turned out to be only a few extra words to cover the
fact that we were effectively licensed by IG to produce the thing.

(2) The stuff (games, ideas, software) that we demo'd at EGC has been given
the go-ahead by Ken for development to trial products - ok, so he's saving
IG the trouble of doing this themselves, but then he can't base his
decisions on the fact that everyone at EGC was going crazy over our stuff -
that's still a very limited market/audience.

If anyone wants help trying to get their own ideas into print, whether
through BITS/CORE (CORE is the product development group, BITS are the
actual publishers), or by doing it themselves, then please feel free to
e-mail me. I'm starting to get a feel for the business and financial
problems in such ventures, and hopefully over the next year we (the CORE
group) will be building ourselves into a strong supportive role for IG -
i.e. providing a wide range of Traveller material, but as a supplement to
IG's work and NOT as a competitor.

Sorry this was so long, but I've been out of the office a few days. Due to
an e-mail problem I've also missed an awful lot of digest up to a few days
ago, so if anyone was desperately trying to contact me about BITS, The Long
Way Home or anything else, please send me a private e-mail...

Andy Lilly :-)
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 08:57:53 PST
Subject: Time travel

I've just discovered that it likely *is* possible to use the jump drive
to do "time travel", and not nearly as hard as I'd thought it would be.
(hint: if you can do jump 6, and can also boost to a few hundred km/sec
you can probably do it.

I haven't done more than a rough calculation so far. Anybody interested
in details on what it would take to send messages (easiest) or ships
(much harder) back in time?


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 08:15:04 PST
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> Consider the problems with trying to attack a base that is built into a
>> nickel iron asteroid 20 km in diameter. The vital installations are in
>> there *somewhere*, but where? The locations would be classified, and
>> the transit tunnels/corridors would be laid out with an eye to making
>> it hard to figure out where things were in relation to each other.
>> 
>
> Very true.  Consider the above carefully...now add 2-4 deep meson sites
> opening up from behind meson screens synced to their fire patterns.
> Pretty grim.

Of course the attacker's first priority is scrubbing the sensors off
the surface. After they do that, it's not that hard to make any
internal sensors (neutrino sensors? Mass detectors?) relatively
worthless. 

The one *big* vulnerability such an installation has is that being
purely military, nobody is going to get upset at you using *nasty*
weapons to crack it. 

Like relativistic rocks... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 08:37:28 PST
Subject: Re: T4 HEPLAR fuel

In mail you write:

> I recently got my T4 hardback and started in. One of the first
> sections I skimmed was spaceships. I note that although it's mainly
> CT, we now have HEPLAR as a lower tech M-drive.  Now the HEPLAR rules
> show a twin component unit: PP + fuel. Since the drive converts fuel
> to ionised plasma and accellartes that for fuel, the first question I
> asked myself was:

> "why do they stick to using l-hyd is the reaction mass for Heplar?"
> "why not use Water instead?"
>
> Trav ships are *volume* limited, not weight limited. There is an 
> advantage to using water for reaction mass as it's 9 times as dense, 
> so gives you 9 times the mass to chuck out for the same volume, and 9 
> times duration on thrust. 

But for a given energy input, the exhaust velocity (and thus the
thrust) of the drive depends on the molecular weight of the exhaust.
The higher the molecular weight, the *lower* the thrust. 

Water has a molecular weight of 18, 16 of that is from the oxygen. LH2
has a molecular weight of *two*. At Heplar temps, you are dealing with
isolating H and O *atoms*. 

So we put in 1 H2O molecule and 18 "units" of energy (one unit being
that required to boost something with a molecular weight of 1 to a
speed of 1). Output is 2 H atoms at a speed of one, and 1 O atom at a
speed of 1/16th.

Now consider putting in 9 H2 molecules and the same 18 units of energy.
You get 18 H atoms at a speed of 1. 

Guess which gives you a bigger boost? Thrust is determined by exhaust
velocity and fuel flow. Period. So for the same fuel flow, LH2 gives a
lot more thrust. About 9 times as much. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #485
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Traveller-digest          Thursday, 3 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 486

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Homebrew T4 Attack DM Reference
         2. Re:  Time travel
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #475
         4. Re: Naval Bases
         5. Re: Books
         6. Re: Time travel 
         7. Technical Schools
         8. Re: Unexplored Core subsector
         9. Re: The Archaean Thesis
        10. Re: T4 HEPLAR fuel
        11. Re: Books 
        12. Re: CCG Idea
        13. T4 Book 2 ?  Need campaign help...
        14. Males/Females (was Space babes)
        15. Males/Females (was Space babes)
        16. Re: The Archaean Thesis 
        17. Re: Unexplored Core subsector
        18. Hit Location Table

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 12:21:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Homebrew T4 Attack DM Reference

At 09:47 PM 10/1/96 -0700, you wrote:
>James Garriss wrote:
>> >So here's my reference sheet...
>> >I've also thrown together a handy Movement/Action Options...
>> Glenn (or anyone else), any interest in having me html these up and place
>> them on the web page next to the armor?
>> 
>
>Yes! Please!

Done!  Take a look at:

  http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss

and select "Combat Quick References."  If anyone else has good T4 source
material that needs a home, let me know.

  James Garriss          |  Counter Genocide
  jpg@langley.mitre.org  |  A Traveller Story in Progress
                         |  http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss/

------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 09:34:20 -0700
Subject: Re:  Time travel

>I've just discovered that it likely *is* possible to use the jump drive
>to do "time travel", and not nearly as hard as I'd thought it would be.
>(hint: if you can do jump 6, and can also boost to a few hundred km/sec
>you can probably do it.

Classic faster-than-light problem...through I'm surprised that J6+few hundred
km/s is enough. 

If we're interested in preserving causality - even more difficult than
preserving canon - we can take the usual way out and introduce a privileged
reference frame (jumps always take 1 week as measured in the CMBR reference
frame regardless of velocity of the jumping ship, for example.)

Bruce

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 96 18:08 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #475

In-Reply-To: <9610011740.AA26819@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Goran Sjoberg <NGC1201@Communique.se>
Subject: Software trouble

Curse.. Blasphemy... Insult....

 Now it is confirmed.
When i upload a simple excel file it becomes corrupt and crunches upon
downloading. I have seen some of you using this method to incorporate 
your
excel files to the WWW. Have you experienced any trouble like that?

If i can't fix it i will use pack and encode/decode programs to get it
online. What kind of pack formats and encoding do you prefer i'd use?

Used string
 <A HREF="ttneship.xlw">ttneship.xlw</A>

 Please help!!!! squeal! >>
 
I assume Excel files are not plain ASCII - make sure you're uploading 
them as binaries. 

Also, you should .zip them first - saves time and space, and stops 
browsers getting confused.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 12:20:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Ed Dowgiallo wrote:

> I guess I needed to be more specific. So far my group has a picture of a 
> naval base as being an extremely large craft in planetary orbit that is 
> an active and major piece of the system defense. We have sort of assumed 

<snip> 
> We are trying to prepare to play out a major space battle, where the 

<snip>

> Would you expect the Sword Worlds base to have sensor satellites for 
> extended targetting? A space minefield of some kind to limit approaches?
> 
> Would it have a small number of very large weapons or a very large 
> number of point defense type weapons? It is, after all, primarily 
> defensive in purpose.
> 
> How large a fleet do the Sword Worlds possess? How large for the 
> Darrians? What would be the typical squadron stationed at a naval base?
> 

Ok, Lets take things in order.

First, there are several options for starbase conception;

1). Starbases and naval bases are undefended shells, on the
theory that they are too delicate and would lose flexibility if they
had their own defenses.  If a well armed foe approaches an orbital
facility, it surrenders.  Defenses are Missiles on satellites specifically
designed as missile platforms, system defense "boats" (some of which could
be 10,000+ ton Battle Riders), and regular fleet units which happen to be
in system or are moved to the system when news of an attack reaches them
(obviously due to advance intelligence efforts).  Also, if aplicable, the
bases would be in range of any planetary Meson Weapons.

2). As above, but there are "Orbital Forts", Maybe 200,000 tons, fitted
with hundreds of fighters, laser turrets, meson guns (bay weapons),
heavily armored and armed, whose only purpose is defense.

3). Everything as 1). but the bases themselves are heavily armed and
armored.

I would argue for 1).  Why build a massive ship which can only be used in
one system when the same resources can be used to build several
jump-capable ships, admittedly of lesser combat capability, but with
significantly greater flexibility.

Defenses in orbit would be automated missile launching platforms; these
can be made cheap and small (harder to detect, harder to hit), and
missiles can be used in system or out of system. Also massive numbers of
planet or orbital based fighters, since these too can be easily used for
offensive ops, same with Battle Riders/Battle Tenders.

Defenders would know whenever a large hostile force is within a few light
hours.  Massive Passive and active arrays on the various planets and moons
would pick up invaders easily, and orbital arrays would enhance this
picture.  The planet is under no cumpunction against using active sensors
(its not like the attackers wont know where it is!).

Minefields are very difficult to justify due to the enormity of space
(even within a system).  Instead consider that a planetary defender has
effectively unlimited numbers of missiles they can launch from on planet
in the path of the attackers, or the defender can pre-position missiles in
stand-by mode which, when the right coded signal is sent, activate and
home in on designated coordinates (although I like the platform idea
better than the missiles just sitting there in space).

An American military base will have anti-aircraft and anti-missile
defenses. It will not generally have anti-ship defenses, and mostly it
relys on mobile assets (especially aircraft) to take out a threat before
it is able to do damage rather than on any local defensive countermeasures
or weapons.  On the other hand, Iraqi bases have hardened aircraft bunkers
(armor), Anti-aircraft missiles and guns, troops and tanks stationed
locally, etc.  So the choice is up to you.

If you decide on a "big spacecraft" type naval base (which you seem to
have done) consider the likelyhood of a hollowed out asteroid.  Most
construction would be done "free" in space rather than in a 'space dock'
(perhaps with a surrounding gantry to allow easy movement of heavy
equipment). Ships would (IMHO) dock onto the outside of a base, not take
the unnecessary risk of manuvering into some chamber inside the base.  

If personnel stay there in a permanent way, I would allow about 20 tons
per person of space to accomadate larger quarters plus all the amenities
we would expect for a prolonged stay (laundry, restraunts, bars,
libraries).

You will also need to make a life support determination.  Is life support
completely ship-like?  this means materials and chemicals (oxygen etc)
needs to be brought in regularly.  If, on the other hand, there is a
closed-system life support structure, more space needs to be set aside
(around 5 tons per person[?!?]) for hydroponic tanks full of 
carbon-dioxide processing plankton and other organisms, which also process
wastes and provide some food. 

This is not even counting the real work components; offices (many many!
think Pentagon!), Workshops, training centers, visitor quarters, sensor
processing, fighter bays, storage facilities, laboratories, hospitals, and
so on.

Well, back to the real world.

Pete    


------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 96 10:38 PDT
Subject: Re: Books

>Joel Lovell said:
>
>>>>I just finished reading David Feintuch's new science fiction series, and I
>can't even begin to tell you just how good these stories were - I rate them
>amoung one of the absolute _best_ reads I've had in years.  Just from
>reading these books I felt the itch to run traveller.
>MIDSHIPMAN'S HOPE
>CHALLENGERS HOPE
>PRISONER'S HOPE
>FISHERMAN'S HOPE
><<<
>
>That is weird; I just bought the five books (the latest being Voices of Hope) 
>and read them last week.  I did enjoy them very much, but I found the books to 
>be very non-Traveller in terms of technology, attitude of the characters and 
Steve Charlton

Steve, I should have clarified that I didn't think they were travelleresque but
I did feel they were excellent space military sci fi.  There were elements
in there 
that I found inspirational for any game, the richness of detail kind of thing.

joel
=====================================================================
| email:  jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com    Joel Lovell                   |
| cell:   (503)539-2085               Intel Corporation             | 
| office: (503)264-3792               2111 NE 25th Ave, M/S: JF2-74 |
| fax:    (503)264-8100               Hillsboro, OR 97124           |
| "standard disclaimer's apply."    		                    |
=====================================================================


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 13:51:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Time travel 

Actually, you can preserve causality -- or at least consistency -- 
and still have time-travel in your game.  (I have some experience in 
the matter, since our group has been playing a time-travel-based 
RPG for over five years.)

To keep consistency, you must rule out paradox -- changing the past 
from what you have already experienced it to be.  The way we do that 
is by "timelock."  Timelock is an alteration of probability that 
affects time travellers.  For instance, suppose you have a dreadful 
thing happen, then travel back a week.  An obvious thing to try is 
to warn your past self.  But, if you try to visit your earlier self, 
you can't catch a cab, or you are held up in traffic, or you are in 
a traffic accident.  If you try to call yourself, the line is busy, or 
your get a wrong number, or something of the sort.

Timelock means luck acts to prevent time travellers from creating 
inconsistencies.  Generally speaking, the more bull-headed one is 
about trying to change the past, the worse you can hurt yourself with 
timelock.  It hurts more to try walking through a wall at 100 mph than
at 1 mph.

In terms of the game, it gives GMs a new scope for creativity, and it 
gives the characters an interesting new problem -- is any given piece 
of awkwardness just ordinary "background" bad luck, or are they in 
danger of running into timelock?  Players can develop imaginative 
ways of detecting and circumventing it.  If you don't like it, you 
can avoid it by taking modest care that nothing you do would change 
the past if it succeeded.

Other temporal effects include fating, loops and tangles, limelight 
effect, and causal substitution.  See my book "Time Riders," published 
by Iron Crown.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 03 Oct 1996 14:19:37 GMT
Subject: Technical Schools

>I does make it a bit of a pain, as i was looking at keeping it simple. 
>Maybe +1 EDU per 2 years is a better choice after all. 

I disagree here, Darryl, if you're talking about a trade school.  From
personal experience as a lecturer, most students concentrate on the specific
skills they think they need for a job - and resent 'wasting time' on general
education courses.

Also, remember that in T4 +1edu is worth a lot more than +1 skill, because
the education can be used for many skill rolls.  

I would suggest that your technical school stick with skills - this
represents the deep-but-narrow approach that trade schools offer.

The other option is to have two types of tech school: (1) a trade school that
offers only skills, but has low entrance requirements, and (2) a polytechnic
that offers mainly skill but some education, which is harder to get into and
takes longer to graduate from.  

Oh, by the way, I couldn't easily decode your MIME message - three programs
on two machines in this lab setup -so this comment is based on feedback.  I'd
lobe to see an ASCII version posted here, or a pointer to a web site. (I can
provide web space if you don't have your own web site.)

------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 11:28:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Unexplored Core subsector

> From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
> Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 16:02:30 +0100

> Craig Berry then went so far as to say:
> >or two away via J-2 or -3 if you took the scenic route.  This whole
> >Core-subsector thing completely blows my credibility circuit breakers.  If
> >it's true, I may not buy the game.  I feel insulted.
> 
> WHOA! The Core subsector stuff is 2 pages out of 200. Let's face it, the
> Exit Visa adventure is set in the Spinward Marches which isn't even known to
> Milieu 0 and isn't detailed for the beginner who's just picked up the rule
> book. I wouldn't call that a reason for not buying the book.

It's the attitude that bothers me.  Traveller for me has always been about
"hard" SF in both technical and social terms; I've enjoyed learning about
the politics, history, sociology, and so forth of the Imperium and its
neighbors as an end in itself, independent of the utility of all this in
game terms.  To be presented with patently absurd, utterly impossible
"facts" about the newborn Imperium in M0 offends me; it damages the
internal consistency of a large construct which I value.  Putting
unexplored worlds in Core Subsector strikes me as lazy, sloppy, flat-out
*wrong*...and I can't help reading it as saying "At IG, we don't care
about plausibility" between the lines. 

> It has to be said that there are more errata than one would like, but in
> general these are minor irritations and are inherent in bringing a rule book
> such as this to market in such a short time.

I still feel that pushing an error-filled product out the door to meet an
arbitrary deadline was the wrong move, but then again, I work in the
software industry, so sayings about pots and kettles come to mind. :)

> I believe that the real reason why the Core subsector isn't 'according to
> canon' is because Marc Miller has his own view of 'canon' and it doesn't
> necessarily agree with everything that others (e.g. DGP) have published.
> It's not a copyright issue - I believe IG can use DGP material provided it's
> not quoted verbatim.

It's *not* the break with canon that upsets me; rather, it's the utter 
silliness of having unexplored worlds in Core subsector.  I wouldn't have 
raised a fuss about a new *consistent* background; a new *inconsistent* 
one angers me.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Author of Orb: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/orbinfo.html
   |    Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 03 Oct 1996 14:26:23 GMT
Subject: Re: The Archaean Thesis

I will probably use this idea in my background, with one significant change:

No one knows where humaniti originated, just that we are widespread.  (After
all, Earth is a ways from the Imperium in Milieu 0.)  Thus, I will have many
factions, each supporting a different homeworld.

------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 11:36:37 -0700
Subject: Re: T4 HEPLAR fuel

Shadow writes

>So we put in 1 H2O molecule and 18 "units" of energy (one unit being
>that required to boost something with a molecular weight of 1 to a
>speed of 1). Output is 2 H atoms at a speed of one, and 1 O atom at a
>speed of 1/16th.

Not quite; temperature of your heat rocket being fixed, the kinetic energy
of the output gases is what stays constant, so your oxygen atom comes
out at a speed of 1/4 the original, which gives you *more* thrust.

Generally, having a higher-atomic-weight exhaust increases your thrust-
to-weight ratio but decreases ISP (or exhaust velocity), which increases
total mass of fuel consumed for a given delta-V. Balancing the two is a
difficult matter for nuclear rocket designers (there's a thread on 
sci.space.tech about it right now...) 

Traveller starship performance is nominally based on volume, not weight,
which appears to make dense fuels attractive. This is a simplification,
though; FFS (the root of all starship design) only lets you use volume
to calculate performance for densities below 15 tonnes/displacement ton;
above that you have to use the real mass. Ships with water in their HEPlaR
tanks would rapidly reach this limit (particularly since you'd have to use
more mass of fuel per g-hour.) Heavily armoured military ships with most
of their mass in the hull might make this tradeoff...

Also, some people (me among them) reconcile the unrealistically high
power-to-thrust ratio of HEPlaR by assuming that some fraction of the 
hydrogen burned undergoes fusion. (Did this make it into T4's text?)
In this case water makes a poor fuel.

I had once been thinking about writing rules for HEPlaR drives with
enriched exhaust (higher T/W, higher FC) but since HEPlaR is obsolete
for military purposes it's probably not worth it.

Oh, and burning hydrogen gives you the added advantage of having your
reaction mass and jump fuel be interchangeable...

Bruce
P.S. I had also been thinking about rules for TL-15 (or maybe 16) 
fuel tanks that use grav compression to carry metallic hydrogen at very
high densities but considerable cost, power, and danger - might still be 
useful for ultrahigh performance ships to cram jump fuel in.

------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 14:42:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Books 

Has anyone mentioned Lois McMasters Bujold's "Miles Vorkosigan" series?
Very rivetsy military SF setting, but also very intense human drama 
with a good seasoning of humor.

To find out more about her work, via Web, see:

	http://www.herald.co.uk/local_info/bujold_faq.html

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 03 Oct 1996 14:49:54 GMT
Subject: Re: CCG Idea

>     7. Some kind of collectible card game (CCG) WAIT! *Hold those flames!* 
>     Perhaps an abbreviated, *superquick* ship combat/character combat 
>     system could be adapted to cards, for those of us that ain't too keen 
>     on all the dice-rolling. Different strokes for different folks, 
>     folks...
 
I like this idea.  I've been trying to come up with something similar myself,
but with one key difference: I don't like the idea of 'collectable', so I'm
trying to some up with something that doesn't require buying new cards. 
Instead, the 'hardware' and 'people' cards would be created based on game
stats, while the 'tactics' cards would allow different options for play.

This is very tentative, as I only have NetRunner, and no incentive to buy
more than the starter set.  (Got it as a teaching aid.)  I know there are
many games out there, but most of them seem to share the characteristic that
newer cards are more powerful than older cards, creating a 'card race' for
players.  I'd like to avoid that syndrome.

------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 96 12:08 PDT
Subject: T4 Book 2 ?  Need campaign help...

I noticed the big red #1 on the spine of the T4 book, is book 2 going to
be the campaign setting?  If so, when will it be available?

I am finding I am having to do an enormous amount of work to try and run
this game from scratch.  I found someone's web site that had a cool
sector viewer written in java, and went through the trouble of getting their
source code to work stand alone on my PC, and then discovered I couldn't
find anything
corresponding to the books Core sector sample.  (Lo and behold the big
discussion
on the fresh approach of campaign 0 here on the list).  I thought, oh, well,
I will just use the old setting until the new one comes along, except I
can't seem to find a source of Core world information anywhere.

Can anyone point me to a good web site that has a complete campaign setting
- - with world information for a whole sector or something?  Preferably in the
Core? Or should I try and locate and buy up some old DGP stuff?

=====================================================================
| email:  jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com    Joel Lovell                   |
| cell:   (503)539-2085               Intel Corporation             | 
| office: (503)264-3792               2111 NE 25th Ave, M/S: JF2-74 |
| fax:    (503)264-8100               Hillsboro, OR 97124           |
| "standard disclaimer's apply."    		                    |
=====================================================================


------------------------------

From: Robert Anstett Jr <a039689t@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 15:14:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Males/Females (was Space babes)

> Role-playing was, and still is, largely considered anti-social in New 
> Zealand. Female playesr are still quite rare.
> My question is; How often would players in your games play female 
> characters?
> 
(Sorry I deleted the atribution :(  )

In my game (ad&d on a weekly basis) we have three women playing, with the 
oposite effect. I have two women playing male characters and normaly at 
least one male playing a female character. 
The best (funniest) example was a woman and her signifiant other playing 
oposites. How they each thought the other should think was sometime 
illuminating, sometimes combustable!

   BOB

------------------------------

From: Robert Anstett Jr <a039689t@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 15:14:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Males/Females (was Space babes)

> Role-playing was, and still is, largely considered anti-social in New 
> Zealand. Female playesr are still quite rare.
> My question is; How often would players in your games play female 
> characters?
> 
(Sorry I deleted the atribution :(  )

In my game (ad&d on a weekly basis) we have three women playing, with the 
oposite effect. I have two women playing male characters and normaly at 
least one male playing a female character. 
The best (funniest) example was a woman and her signifiant other playing 
oposites. How they each thought the other should think was sometime 
illuminating, sometimes combustable!

   BOB

------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 15:28:20 -0400
Subject: Re: The Archaean Thesis 

Rob Prior writes:

 " No one knows where humaniti originated, just that we are widespread.  (After
  all, Earth is a ways from the Imperium in Milieu 0.)  Thus, I will have many
  factions, each supporting a different homeworld."

But Earth has a decent fossil record and apes and loads of other organisms 
all with similar anatomies and genetic codes.  All this strongly suggests 
a human origin on Earth.  To muddy the waters, shouldn't you supply 
similar evidence on the other candidate homeworlds?

Earl Wajenberg




------------------------------

From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:03:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Unexplored Core subsector

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Craig Berry wrote:
> It's *not* the break with canon that upsets me; rather, it's the utter 
> silliness of having unexplored worlds in Core subsector.  I wouldn't have 
> raised a fuss about a new *consistent* background; a new *inconsistent* 
> one angers me.

Maybe I missed something, but what I read said that the worlds hadn't
been contacted in centuries.  This is different from 'unexplored'.  There
may be good reasons for that...  Maybe they're worthless or excessivly
dangerous.

I must say I'm more bothered by the break from previous material since
I've got a lot of old original Traveller stuff I'd like to use (and I
probably will just use) and it'd be nice if it was consistent with the
new stuff.

I also have more problems with the typos and misspellings I've found.
There are more than I'm used to seeing, though not enough to cause me
to not want the book.  I like Traveller and I look forward to future
releases.

And, finally... it seems like there are more important things to get
angry about.  I doubt that anyone at IG is trying to screw anyone.  I
also doubt that they just don't care.  I would suspect that, if anything,
it's an oversight.  But I've never done game design (which is why I'm
not going to make any assumptions about what's behind the material...)

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/



------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 15:54:10 -0400
Subject: Hit Location Table

Here's my first cut at a Hit Location Table.  Suggestions?

- -----

Hit Location Table

1) Roll on General Location Table
2) Roll again on a specific Location Table (if necessary)

1d20    General Location Table (GLT)

01-03   Incidental (re-roll on ILT)
04-11   Chest
12-14   Lower Torso
15-17   Limb (re-roll on LLT)
18      Neck
19-20   Face/Head (re-roll on FHLT)

1d6     Incidental Location Table (ILT)

1       Drop item in primary hand, which is damaged
2       Drop item in secondary hand, which is damaged
3-4     Graze; re-roll on GLT; 1 point damage if unarmored
5-6     Re-roll on GLT; possession on that location is damaged

1d20    Limb Location Table (LLT)
        
01-02   Upper Right Arm
03      Lower Right Arm
04      Right Hand
05-06   Upper Left Arm
07      Lower Left Arm
08      Left Hand
09-11   Upper Right Leg
12-13   Lower Right Leg
14      Right Foot
15-17   Upper Left Leg
18-19   Lower Left Leg
20      Left Foot

1d10    Face/Head Location Table (FHLT)
        
1       Ear
2       Eye
3       Nose
4       Mouth
5       Face
6-10    Head

  James Garriss          |  Counter Genocide
  jpg@langley.mitre.org  |  A Traveller Story in Progress
                         |  http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #486
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Traveller-digest          Thursday, 3 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 487

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: IG's Future, Singed Traveller, Education, in fact everything...
         2. Rolling for hit location
         3. RE: Technical Schools
         4. Re: Tech Schools repost
         5. Question
         6. "Steward" skill
         7. Re: Time travel
         8. Re: Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed
         9. Re: Re: Re: Modeling advice needed
        10. Re: Sundry
        11. Re: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.  Want,...Well...
        12. Re: Babes in Space
        13. Re: RPG Babes..kinda LONG
        14. Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues
        15. Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues (Long)
        16. Re: Space babes!!!
        17. Re: 2 arrivals!
        18. Re: Base-64 & UU/XX
        19. Re: Technical Schools

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DJessup938@aol.com
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 15:56:33 -0400
Subject: Re: IG's Future, Singed Traveller, Education, in fact everything...

Anybody got the new number of Second games galore as i only have an old one

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 15:58:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Rolling for hit location

Hi.

Glenn Grant remarked:

>From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
>Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 02:53:34 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Re: T4 combat lethality

[...]
>A hit-location roll, yup. That's what I used when running CT, and I plan to
>use one in my T4 game.
[...]
>So the lethality has only increased slightly. But the player's going to
>remember that hit; he's really going to be more careful next time. And
>maybe he'll have to get one of those 'dehumanizing' prosthetics, which he
>can show off in the local Cyberjockey bar... :)
[...]
>Does anybody else use a similar system?

Similar in some respects. I don't roll for damage points in my campaign,
instead I use the MT mishap table with modifications inspired by
Striker. This results in wounds of four severity levels: Superficial,
Minor, Major, and Instant Death. (Combat tends to be very lethal in my
campaign.)

If the result is a major wound, I roll on a table (similar to the
critical hit or damage location tables in the starship combat rules) to
see what body part got smashed. Barring some fancy medical work, such
wounds leave permanent damage.

For superficial wounds, minor wounds, and instant death, the effect of
the wounding doesn't depend so much on the location, so I don't usually
bother rolling. I just decide where the character got hit and tell the
player what the effects are.

You're right, the players DO remember those hits! Especially when they
view life thru a cybernetic eye afterwards! 8^)

- -Rob

------------------------------

From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 13:21:56 -0700
Subject: RE: Technical Schools

>
>>>I does make it a bit of a pain, as i was looking at keeping it simple.
>>>>>Maybe +1 EDU per 2 years is a better choice after all. 
>
>>I disagree here, Darryl, if you're talking about a trade school.  From
>>personal experience as a lecturer, most students concentrate on the
>>>specific
>>skills they think they need for a job - and resent 'wasting time' on general
>>education courses.
>
>>Also, remember that in T4 +1edu is worth a lot more than +1 skill, >because
>>the education can be used for many skill rolls.  
>
>>I would suggest that your technical school stick with skills - this
>>represents the deep-but-narrow approach that trade schools offer.
>
>>The other option is to have two types of tech school: (1) a trade school
>>>that
>>offers only skills, but has low entrance requirements, and (2) a
>>>polytechnic
>>that offers mainly skill but some education, which is harder to get into and
>>takes longer to graduate from.  
>
How about this.  Award Dex instead of Edu for each term in Tech School.
While one may not advance your education much when learning 'General
Robot Repair,' one does become a bit more adept at twiddling with really
small parts and contorting oneself to fit through those @$%($!@! access
panels.

Or alternatively, for each _two_ years, give the option between a point
of Dex or a point of Edu.  As tech school is _three_ years long, it
holds down the amount of damage this option could do to game balance.

Personally I'd think Tech School is more akin to an Associate's degree.
I'd say it only lasts for two years and that you'd gain a Technical
skill level, get a skill for every year you attended and gain either a
point of Edu or Dex.

>

------------------------------

From: athol-brose <cinnamon@one.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 16:25:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Tech Schools repost

> BTW to the flammers :- Dont blame me if your mailer does not support 
> MIME. Pine supports it, so who am i to argue.

Jeez. In Pine's editor, PICO, just hit control-r and put in the filename.
It will read in the file, and everyone can read it. No MIME/Base64/uu/xx
required.


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 16:44:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Question

Is it possible for majordomo to be set up to filter out the word 'canon'?

------------------------------

From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 16:43:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: "Steward" skill

Someone wrote in a previous TML digest that (in his opinion) Steward skill
should be considered a group of other skills, mostly interpersonal.  Let's
play with this for a moment...

Captain: "XO, I don't like our new Steward."

Exec: "But, Captain, he's fluent in seven languages, three of them
non-human, he's charming and witty, he keeps the passengers entertained
(and, incidentally, out of our way).  What's wrong with him?"

Captain: "My ham-and-cheese omelet was *CRUNCHY*!  My coffee had *SOAP
SUDS*!  And he burned a hole in my *BRAND NEW UNIFORM*!"

Exec: "Oh..."

<**CRUNCH**>

Captain: "WHAT THE %#@%@#%#@!!!"

Exec: "It looks like the Steward just crashed the Air/Raft..."

(Note: The rest of this conversation was censored.)



Franklin


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 16:53:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Time travel

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> I've just discovered that it likely *is* possible to use the jump drive
> to do "time travel", and not nearly as hard as I'd thought it would be.
> (hint: if you can do jump 6, and can also boost to a few hundred km/sec
> you can probably do it.
> 
> I haven't done more than a rough calculation so far. Anybody interested
> in details on what it would take to send messages (easiest) or ships
> (much harder) back in time?



I'd be interested in how you 'discovered' this, and I would settle for
being able to send a ship back in time a week, arriving as soon as it
leaves so to speak ;>


> 
> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 15:09:15 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Modelling Advice Needed

 
> >I was thinking of adding an area to my web page (Ants, that is) with
> >step by step mold making instructions for people without bell jars
> >etc..  Would anybody be interested in this?
> 
> YES!!!
> 
> Uh, where is your Web page?
 
I am taking pictures with my little digital camera now for the mold
making part.  My url is http://www.ants-inc.com/

It'll be a week or so given my insane schedule right now.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 15:11:41 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Modeling advice needed

 
> Only problem is, I've never seen any (plastic ants).  Didn't know they made
> them.  Have to start digging around.  The local hobby shops not having any,
> and same with Toys-R-Us, guess I'll have to find a novelty shop.  Time for
> the yellow pages...
 
There's a place here in Albuquerque that has them.  They're like a
couple bucks or so for a handfull.  If you can't find 'em, lemme
know I'll throw some in an envelope.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 15:17:21 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Sundry

 
> Most miniatures are cast in RTV molds, which are essentially
> rubber...they wear out. At this point, the manufacturer has to decide
> if it is worth making a new production mold or not (which costs
> money).

RTV has a shelf life of about 3 years.  You can get a pull out of an
older mold, but it'll most likely take the mold with it.

BTW, I would think that white metal work would be poured into
vulcanized spin molds.  I don't, but I know a lot of outfits use
real vulcanized molds (RTV is Room Temp. Vulcanized, a chemical
reaction cures it, not heat/pressure like regular vulcanized molds).

- -Merrick



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 11:55:35 -0700
Subject: Re: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.  Want,...Well...

Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> >That's one I agree with wholeheartedly, too. With a universe
> >of adventure waiting for us in Milleu 0, who needs gratituous
> >babes in skintight spacesuits?
> 
> Well...Given that the creator of "Macho Women with Guns" is a member
> of the IG staff... :-)
> 
> One of my MWG publications (I think it's the latest release, combining
> Macho Women with Guns, Bat Winged Bimbo from Hell, & Regenage Biker Nuns)
> has a SF section, complete with modified TNE character sheets!

I've seen MWWG and it's sequeals; they're _satire_, plainly labeled as such for the 
sensitive. What bugs me is the gratituous bikini babes that infest RPGs for no other 
reason but tillilation.

I feel a rant coming on . . .

Don't get me wrong; I _like_ women. I was once married to one. I'm wired that way. It's 
just that I'd like my RPGs to portray women as integral to the human future, not as 
objects. The human race needs all of it's members -- no matter how they're plumbed OR 
wired -- to struggle for the future. I'd like to leave behind all the sexist crap, 
especially the odious load of bull that says that it is okay to objectify women, when 
this species of ours finally decides to get serious about reaching for the stars. The 
female of our species has a lot more to offer the entire race; it's _past_ time for 
humanity to realize that to deny women their place in the human future is the worst kind 
of racial stupidity.

Rant off.
> 
> Hmmm....I smell a tie in here!  Hey Greg, is there going to be a Traveller
> based MWG module?  Perhaps the JATS will continue the Challenge tradition
> of an annual swimsuit issue... :-)

Okay, Greg, when will "Macho Women with Guns! Guns! Guns! for T4" be done? Hopefully 
_after_ the CSC is done! As for the JTAS swimsuit issue: don't even think it! ;)


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 12:01:41 -0700
Subject: Re: Babes in Space

Susan M. Shock wrote:

<<deletia>>
>         ...sex is a topic of discussion everytime we play. If it isn't us
> joking about it. it's one of the characters looking for it...or getting
> it...or NOT getting it, which can be funnier. We're all adults; if there
> were younger kids playing, we obviously wouldn't be engaging in this sort of
> hilarity.
>         The key word used here is GRATUITOUS. 

Huzzah. Sex is part of our hairless-ape makeup; it's just that I'm fed up with 

> If sex or violence for that
> matter occurs at a far greater frequency than in real life (or even in say a
> classic adventure novel), with little or no negative consequences for those
> engaging in it, then it's gratuitous. It seems to me that IG is taking a
> stand on what they'll publish. You won't see anything like "Clanbook;
> Nosferatu" in Traveller. (if you know that book, you know what I mean.)

All too bloody well; pun not intended. There's another clanbook that is _much worse_ -- 
closeup of female genatalia ON THE BACK COVER (book was polybagged like a men's 
magazine). 

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 12:35:39 -0700
Subject: Re: RPG Babes..kinda LONG

Simon John Harding wrote:

> -----------------
> 
> I think we are getting onto something interesting here. I am a Role-play
> gamer raised in a tradition of no female players. This was not a rule,
> it was just that no female would be seen dead playing RPGs with us.

Likewise. I started RPGing in the US Navy -- an environment where there were all too few 
women, period. After I got married, my spouse would play _occasionally_, but I wouldn't 
do "snooky-wookums" things for her characters (I GMed, see the _Star Wars_ issue of 
Shadis, _The Unofficial Gamer's Lexicon_, by Paul Lucas, for the meaning of the term), 
and she stopped playing.

> Role-playing was, and still is, largely considered anti-social in New
> Zealand. Female playesr are still quite rare.

Hmmm . . . I thought we Yanks had a monopoly on the social-acceptance problems. How 
widesread is this phenomenon in Canada, the UK and Australia?

> My question is; How often would players in your games play female
> characters?

I call this "gender bending." I have had two players -- male -- who prefer to play 
female characters, one of them has _never_ played a male character in any of my games. 
Every one of them is anime-inspired. The other guy doesn't play with me anymore, but he 
played a ruthless female Solo in my old C-punk game.

As for me: for some perverse reason, I find it easy to build interesting female NPCs. 
This started in the C-punk game; the campaign centerted around the PCs protecting an 
all-female retro-rock band. I built the five rockergrrls -- thanks to the RTG 'lifepath' 
system -- with more adventure hooks than a tacklebox full of Runnin' Rebel fishing lures 
and with enough twists and quirks to their personalities to propel a year's worth of 
weekly gaming. The lead singer was a NewAge crystal-crunching NeoPagan with no cyberware 
. . . the drummer was a no-retreat/no surrender martial-arts Amazon who resented playing 
second fiddle to the lead singer . . . the bassist was a ultra-leftist Japanese with a 
lot of 'warez who rode the ragged edge of cyberpsychosis . . . the lead guitarist was 
born in a bus and raised in a nomad convoy, heir to a case of itchy feet but a 
peacemaker's soul . . . the backup guitarist was a child of the combat zone in her first 
band who was born with little more than a little luck and a lot of talent.

In T4, this experience helped me with my new rogue/spacer NPC. I'd _love_ to play her as 
a PC sometime!

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 12:57:28 -0700
Subject: Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Read the Retief stories by Keith Laumer sometime. Lots of "sexy babes"
> only they are almost always what the aliens Retief is dealing with
> consider to be "sexy babes" ("Wow, get a load of the eyestalks on that
> one, eh?")
> 
> The result is *funny* and not at all offensive.

Yeah, I can see how. ;)

> BTW, the back of one of
> the old books (either 76 patrons, or the one full of NPCs) *has* Retief
> in it, as an un-named diplomat (one of 6 or a dozen characters that
> they stated were drawn from SF, but left for the players to try to
> identify. A JTAS much later gave the correct answers. Retief was one,
> Earl Dumarest was another, Luke Skywalker was in there too)

I remember that one! Luke was the "Young Farm Kid," I thought the diplomat was Retif. In 
an old Space Gamer, someone wrote up Alois Hammer and Jochim Stuben (I think) from 
"Hammer's Slammers" for a character contest, too. Interesting stuff, that.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 13:27:41 -0700
Subject: Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues (Long)

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 

> 
> You may come over and play any time, Rich...    :-)>

Thanks, Boyd ;)
> 

> 
> Oh, so you've already met this guy....   ;-)>

He's standing about 15 feet away as I type this ;)

> 

> >I like playing with cosmic-scale threats after the players learn about the
> >universe a
> >little bit; in this we disagree. I think players like being, as an ad in the
> final ish
> >of _Challenge_ said, at the fulcrum of history.
> >
> 
> I spose we aren't too far apart in this after all, it's just that I haven't
> had a consistant group of players long enough to _really_ learn about the
> universe.

That _is_ a problem; I'm forever teaching 'Trav 101' to newcomers. I usually hand them 
an Imperial Encyclopedia and try to answer their questions as best as I can.

> As far as I'm concerned, the Zhodani would probably be the only
> cosmic-scale threat for the players in my 3rd Imperium setting: nothing like
> the virus; giant jump-space fish (ala Feintuch); no Gamalons(tm) or
> Cylons(tm); no omipotent 'Q' toying with the PCs; no Galactic
> Armageddon...etc.

In my Year 0 game, there are other pocket empires thinking the same thing as the Syleans 
are thinking -- just like in the RC game I ran there was the Solee with their 
Starburst-class CL as well as their relic Kinunirs -- all of which could smash the RCN 
flatter than a beer can. There will be no Virus, no hyperspace fish (I read _Fisherman's 
Hope_, it was GREAT!) and no Q in my Milleu 0 game. 

I've got one small pocket empire set up in the trailing main of Core Sector -- a single 
world (Ardis, a Tech 12 world with a charismatic dictatorship) has been hiring 
privateers to raid Sylean shipping as a prelude to a campaign of conquest. Look at where 
the trailing naval bases are in IG's Core subsector; they are there to protect the 
coreward segment of the main.
> 
> My vision of the Imperium is a homogenous mix of struggles and secrets, wars
> and rumors of wars, and the constant struggle of masses upon masses of people.
>  History has many fulcrums.  The only cosmic-scale threat might be to the _way
> of life_ that allows the PCs to do what they do, again, such as the threat of
> Zhodani conquest -- but the *threat* of Zhodani aggression serves my purpose
> more than the actual realization of that threat.

Yeah, in the late 3I, the Zho were a threat, and a dandy one. 

> 
> But whatever it is, the cosmic-scale threat should not undo my effort trying
> to convince the players that the Imperium and surrounding regions are really
> vast... and truly homogenous.   If a virus or berserker fleet (a la
> Saberhagen) is all over the place, then the "universe" may appear (to the
> players) to be pretty much the same all over, with the same enemy to fight,
> and it's size matters not (We've just got this job to do, and playing
> Traveller means "doing that job").

The last thing you want is to have the Imperium reflect a vague sameness. Strip malls on 
every world do not help. As my campaign moves away from Sylea and the settled worlds, 
the PCs will begin to see just how vast 'Charted Space' really is;)
> 
> The Imperium might then appear to be a only permutation of the "world" in a
> Fantasy RPG.  In FRPG, players all to often think it's the job of the ref to
> send adventure their way...  My goal is to create an Imperium so plausible,
> and so compelling, that the players will WANT to go out and explore it, or do
> business in it, or leech off it, or build something in it.  My reasons for
> being a member of TML stems directly from that; I want to glean as many ideas
> from others to add even more variety to my campaign.  (It's late, I hope all
> that came across clear and understandable).

I like this, Boyd. I'm also on the lookout for ideas. Well said!

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 12:44:40 -0700
Subject: Re: Space babes!!!

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> Rich Ostorero stormhvn@inreach.com said:

> 
> Umm.. my wife and I would like a few..... do you deliver?

Don't I wish . . . ;)

> 
> Doug and Kirsten (who was so disappointed when she learned what
> "hot-bunking" really meant..)

ROFLMAO!!

- --Rich
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 13:38:22 -0700
Subject: Re: 2 arrivals!

Timothy Collinson wrote:
>
> Message is as follows:
> 
> Yesterday, an autographed hardcover arrived in Gosport
> (depths of Southern England).  I'm dead chuffed.

I take it "chuffed" means "damned pleased."

> 
> Day before yesterday Sarah Elizabeth arrived in Portsmouth
> (weighing 7lbs 1oz).  I'm so chuffed as to just have to let
> the whole world know!  (Does TML count as the 'whole' world?)

Not to a parent, Timothy. . . .

> 
> Timothy
> "Guess which will keep me up more at night?"

If you're bottle feeding, I'd say that Sarah will. If the babe is nursing, than Trav has 
a chance ;)

Congrads, Timothy. As the Dadster to a nearly perfect young lady, age 15 Terran years, 
all I can say is; enjoy it while she's young!

I say "nearly perfect" because she's a great kid -- good grades, great personality, comp 
literate, Internet savy, good looking, etc -- but she doesn't game -- and, believe me, I 
tried to get her to play . . . .

Rich Ostorero, aka Sophia's Dadster
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:47:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Base-64 & UU/XX

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Larry Hadley wrote:

> 
> On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Thanasis Kinias wrote:
> > 
> > I understand the complaints about encoded text; it is a royal pain to
> > read with many EMail progs.  However, _pine_'s designers did not see fit
> > to include a simple means of pasting in outside text files.  The solution

'^R' in the composition screen will read in a (text) file from your root
directory.

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
  "One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak 
            uncertainty of reason---but one cannot have both" 
			--- _Friday_, Robert A. Heilein


------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 07:56:21 +1000
Subject: Re: Technical Schools

On 3 Oct 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> >I does make it a bit of a pain, as i was looking at keeping it simple. 
> >Maybe +1 EDU per 2 years is a better choice after all. 
> 
> I disagree here, Darryl, if you're talking about a trade school.  From
> personal experience as a lecturer, most students concentrate on the specific
> skills they think they need for a job - and resent 'wasting time' on general
> education courses.

In Australia, TAFE (Technical and Further Education) is 
1. an alternative High School
2. trade school
3. hobby school
4. career focused courses , certificate and Ascotiate Diploms
5. the only  other choice for further education. (The other Choice in 
University)

Part of the Idea for the +1 edu was to allow characters to go to Trade 
schools to gain the minimal edu required for Collages. The option could 
be as follows :

1. Choose 1 skill OR +1 Edu
2. No EDU bonus (defeting one of the main reasons of doing it in the 
first place).
3. Choose 1 skill AND +1 Edu
4. +1 Edu for 3 year course only

Themain problem as I see it is that EDU has gone from a stat used in 
character generation (CT/MT) to a base number used by most knowledge skills.
If you go to Technical school AND Collage, you could get a massive +7 
EDU. While this is good if you are almost illeterate when you start 
generation, It could make D EDU characters omnipotent.


I will concider doing a second version of the Technical schools, as long 
as I get an anwser that pleases the majority AND is concistant with my 
bias <grin>

> The other option is to have two types of tech school: (1) a trade school that
> offers only skills, but has low entrance requirements, and (2) a polytechnic
> that offers mainly skill but some education, which is harder to get into and
> takes longer to graduate from.  

Polytechnic are only in the UK as far as I am aware, and given that T4 is 
about simplyfying Traveller, I dont think having 2 careers of focused 
Technical schools (trade,polytechnic) is the way to go IMHO.

> 
> Oh, by the way, I couldn't easily decode your MIME message - three programs
> on two machines in this lab setup -so this comment is based on feedback.  I'd
> lobe to see an ASCII version posted here, or a pointer to a web site. (I can
> provide web space if you don't have your own web site.)
> 
Grumble, grumble. I have posted it up at 

http://www.ar.com.au/~dtadams/traveller/main.html

At least people agree with HTML (well almost, it is optamised for LYNX :-)


>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #487
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Traveller-digest          Thursday, 3 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 488

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: [T96#481] Stuff Allen Shock posts
         2. Re: [T96#478] Big Computers and Small Machines
         3. re: T4 Book 2 ?  Need campaign help...
         4. Synchronicity
         5. Re: Unexplored Core subsector
         6. Re: RPG Babes..kinda LONG
         7. Re: CCG Idea
         8. Re: FFS questions. Any gurus out there?
         9. I've been thinking about novels again.
        10. Anyone in California have hardbound?
        11. Re: T4 Book 2 ?  Need campaign help...
        12. Darrian Star Trigger - The Final Word (was Re: Naval Bases)
        13. Traveller gender issues (long)
        14. Re: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no
        15. Change in Imperial structure?
        16. Re: [T96#481] Stuff Allen Shock posts
        17. GenCon Hardbacks
        18. Playing Female Characters
        19. Re: Unexplored Core subsector
        20. Re: GenCon Hardbacks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 96 17:58:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#481] Stuff Allen Shock posts

 ::>disclaimer (for IG, not for me). If I send something specifically to a
 ::>particular web page, or to Freelance Traveller, you should get their
 ::>premission before utilizing it.

 Just to clarify the Freelance Traveller policy at present:
 Freelance Traveller's position is that since we cannot and do
 not pay for submissions, we have no right to restrict the
 author's use of the material, nor to grant or deny permission
 for other use. Thus, Freelance Traveller advises anyone wishing
 to use FT-published material in a way that would require
 permission to contact the _author_ for that permission.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Bakersfield: California's Hot Spot!

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 96 17:58:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#478] Big Computers and Small Machines

pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant) hath writ...

T::>Certainly plausible. The more powerful the computer, the bigger your
 ::>coolant system must be. In Drexler's _Foresight_ newsletter, I read a
 ::>speculative article which suggested it might be possible to construct a
 ::>desktop nanoputer that could, in theory at least, outperform all the human
 ::>brains on the planet combined. Problem is, it would need a coolant system
 ::>the size of a ten-storey building...

 Given "present" technology, I'll agree with this.  But what
 happens when you have room-temperature superconductors, where
 energy loss and heat generation (really the same thing) are
 absolutely minimized?  This was a big deal in real life not too
 long ago when someone supposedly found or made a superconductor
 that seemed to function as such at inexpensively achievable
 temperatures (liquid nitrogen, IIRC, as compared to near 0K).
 Is RTSC a reasonable expectation for TL11/12?

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Conference Liaison


------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 15:13:03 -0700
Subject: re: T4 Book 2 ?  Need campaign help...

Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com> writes

>I am finding I am having to do an enormous amount of work to try and run
>this game from scratch.

I just wanted to highlight this; IMHO this is probably the single worst 
problem with T4 - there is far too little background and adventure info to
let people run a campaign with it out of the box. TNE, for all its flaws,
did better - there's more information on the auxilliary settings like the
Regency in TNE than on Milleu 0 in T4. (*and* you could still use the old maps
in TNE.)

The adventures they include don't help much - one is set in the
Marches in 1105 (*why* didn't they reset it in 0?) (and I've always thought
"Exit Visa" was a pretty weak adventure; if new player's first Traveller
experience is that dull, they may not want to continue. With all of published
Traveller to draw on, why didn't they pick one of the better adventures?
Argon Gambit, Divine Intervention, Night of Conquest, Death Station...)

Just out of curiosity...hands up everyone who's running a Milleu 0 campaing.

Bruce

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 3 Oct 96 14:49:00 MS
Subject: Synchronicity

In responding to me, Joel said
>>That is weird; I just bought the five books (the latest being Voices of Hope) 
>>and read them last week.  I did enjoy them very much, but I found the books 
to 
>>be very non-Traveller in terms of technology, attitude of the characters and 
>Steve Charlton
>
>Steve, I should have clarified that I didn't think they were travelleresque but
>I did feel they were excellent space military sci fi.  There were elements
>in there 
>that I found inspirational for any game, the richness of detail kind of thing.
>
>joel

The "weird" part I was referring to was not the "Travellerishness" of the 
books, but the fact that I just bought and read these books, and have read two 
posts in as many days talking about how keen the books were.  I hope you didn't 
think I was calling your opinions wierd.

This whole thing kind of makes me beleive in synchronicity or something...

Steve Charlton

------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 15:54:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Unexplored Core subsector

> From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:03:47 -0500 (CDT)
> 
> On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Craig Berry wrote:
> > It's *not* the break with canon that upsets me; rather, it's the utter 
> > silliness of having unexplored worlds in Core subsector.  I wouldn't have 
> > raised a fuss about a new *consistent* background; a new *inconsistent* 
> > one angers me.
> 
> Maybe I missed something, but what I read said that the worlds hadn't
> been contacted in centuries.  This is different from 'unexplored'.  There
> may be good reasons for that...  Maybe they're worthless or excessivly
> dangerous.

If they're either, that seriously constrains what players may reasonably
find when they get there.  I see no hint of such a constraint being given. 

It just doesn't make *sense* for worlds a few weeks' travel away to be 
utterly uncontacted for centuries, given a society in which 
privately-controlled starships are demonstrably common.  Someone would go 
there just to satisfy wanderlust, or prospect for newly-valuable 
minerals, or to set up a commune, or *something*.  Not many, but enough, 
in a sporadic stream over the years, that it would be quite well known 
what was in these systems.

Heck, consider that unknown Baddies from the Rim could use these systems 
as stepping-stones to Capital!  That by itself argues strongly for 
routine patrols by Federation/Imperial Navy ships, and in all likelihood 
for permanent monitoring stations.

To me, T4's Core subsector looks like an alternate history in which the
young United States settled the Eastern Seaboard, then the Appalachian
states, perhaps sent Lewis and Clark out for a quick westward survey,
then...stopped, for two hundred years.  Nobody bothered to cross the
Mississippi for a couple of centuries.

How likely a scenario is that?

> I must say I'm more bothered by the break from previous material since
> I've got a lot of old original Traveller stuff I'd like to use (and I
> probably will just use) and it'd be nice if it was consistent with the
> new stuff.

Oh, I totally agree.  Consistency with canon is important to me, but I'm 
willing to shift if need be.  *Internal* consistency is far more 
important, though, and non-negotiable.

> And, finally... it seems like there are more important things to get
> angry about.  I doubt that anyone at IG is trying to screw anyone.  I
> also doubt that they just don't care.  I would suspect that, if anything,
> it's an oversight.  But I've never done game design (which is why I'm
> not going to make any assumptions about what's behind the material...)

Never suggested that!  I merely note that T4 shows signs of (a) being 
unduly rushed to market, and (b) a lack of Traveller's traditional 
attention to detail and internal consistency.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Author of Orb: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/orbinfo.html
   |    Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 19:15:24 +0000
Subject: Re: RPG Babes..kinda LONG

Rich Ostorero wrote:
 
> How widesread is this phenomenon in Canada, the UK and Australia?

Can't speak for all Canadians, but it is very definitely a male dominated arena here
And yes it is seen by a lot of people as weird (these same people occasionally go to the 
Vampire Sex Bar here in T.O. and play Vampire: The Melodramatic

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 3 Oct 96 16:05:56 MS
Subject: Re: CCG Idea

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) said
> >    7. Some kind of collectible card game (CCG) WAIT! *Hold those flames!* 
> >    Perhaps an abbreviated, *superquick* ship combat/character combat 
> >    system could be adapted to cards, for those of us that ain't too keen 
> >    on all the dice-rolling. Different strokes for different folks, 
> >    folks...
> 
>I like this idea.  I've been trying to come up with something similar myself,
>but with one key difference: I don't like the idea of 'collectable', so I'm
>trying to some up with something that doesn't require buying new cards. 
>Instead, the 'hardware' and 'people' cards would be created based on game
>stats, while the 'tactics' cards would allow different options for play.

Something I have been mentally "playing around with" on this card game thing is 
a Traveller space combat system along the lines of Modern Naval Battles or 
(Better Yet) the Hornet Leader game.  Basically, the aircraft is defined, as is 
the weapons loadout.  The random card elements have to do with the battlefield 
conditions, when the enemy is encountered, what posture you and the enemy are 
in, and "random" events.  Combat itself is fairly simple, and couched in 
real-world terms rather than random draws, but the combat is effected by the 
random draws which reflect ehe elements listed above, as well as human elements 
like panic and tactical competence, as well as plain ol' luck.  I would not 
want someting like the Modern Naval Battles requirement to draw the ammo for 
your weapons; too often I've had a Iowa Battleship and no 16" gun cards.  You'd 
think the logistics folks would have noticed the empty ammo bunkers before they 
let the ship leave the harbor.

As I said, I haven't really done anything with this.  It would seem that this 
would be more sueful in civvie vs civvie naval battles; military ships would 
have the equipment and skills to avoid or compound the random effects listed.

I do agree with Rob about the "collectible" aspect of the CCGs; it's all 
marketing, and leads eventually to completely untenable games.  I never got 
onto the CCG bandwagon, and most of my friends who were so into CCGs when they 
first came out have given up in disgust as more and more variant decks and 
power packs have come out, leaving their own expensive card collections far 
behind in terms of power.


Steve Charlton

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 18:20:59 -0700
Subject: Re: FFS questions. Any gurus out there?

David Murray wrote:
> 
> The only reason I'm so interested in TL 17-18 is that I have a character I
> rolled up years ago when MT first came out.  He is from a TL 18 world. 

Good for you! My favorite character of all time (gen'd back in 1986)
wound up on a TL17 world in the Vanguard Reaches sector (Paranoia
Press). I converted the ship he custom-built there to FFS last year and
had a good time with it in Brilliant Lances.

------------------------------

From: Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 19:16:29 -0400
Subject: I've been thinking about novels again.

My list of 10 literary sources for Traveller background.

1) _Mote in God's Eye_, by Jerry Pournelle.  It is the source of the
Langston Field (aka Black Globe), after all.

2) The John Christian Falkenberg series, by Jerry Pournelle (and the S.M.
Stirling stuff in the same timeline)

3) The Honor Harrington series of novels - knock down the accelerations to
trav standards and they're an excellent rendition of space warfare.

4) The Miles Vorkosigan series by Lois McMaster Bujold

5) _Hammer's Slammers_, by David Drake

6) _Starship Troopers_ and _Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, by Heinlein

7) The Flandry series.

8) _The Long Run_, by Daniel Keyes Moran

9) The Retief series, by Laumer.

10) Various stuff by Poul Anderson, Jerry Pournelle, Isaac Asimov, Andre
Norton,  Robert Heinlein.

Joe Block <jpb@miamisci.org>

"That's our advantage at Microsoft; we set the standards and we can change
them."
 -- Karen Hargrove, Microsoft (quoted in the Feb 1993 Unix Review editorial)



------------------------------

From: KevinC <kevinc@cnetech.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 16:44:18 -0700
Subject: Anyone in California have hardbound?

Hi,

Has anyone in California received their hardbound T4 from IG?

I have not, and am getting worried that some disgruntled postal worker
is itching for a PGMP ( to take to work) after 'aquiring' the book.

KevinC
kevinc@cnetech.com

------------------------------

From: "Victor J. Raymond" <RAYMOND@macalester.edu>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 19:04:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: T4 Book 2 ?  Need campaign help...

"IMHO this is probably the single worst
problem with T4 - there is far too little background and adventure info to
let people run a campaign with it out of the box."
 
I have to disagree with the sentiment, if not the fact.  I _like_ there being
little milieu to wade through to get to the game.  Since I tend to run my own
home-grown campaigns, anyway, a game like Traveller 4th Edition is well suited
to my style of play.  Frankly, even if I was the sort to use a pre-packaged
setting, I would want something like a later sourcebook than have the rules
constantly interrupted by background specific to a single campaign setting.

And I guess I am disturbed by the "fast food' mentality being advocated here by
Mr. Macintosh.  Whatever happened to the days of completely original campaigns;
something many readers of this list may recall?
 
Of course, your mileage may vary.

Victor J. Raymond           Activist, Writer, Raconteur
3645 Bloomington Av. So.    raymond@macalstr.edu
Minneapolis, MN 55407       612.721.9635
 
"In the side of what had seemed to be a snow-bank stood a solid-looking little
door, painted a dark green.  An iron bell-pull hung by the side, and below it,
on a small brass plate, neatly engrave in square capital letters, they could
read by the aid of moonlight: --    Mr. Badger"   --   Wind in the Willows


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 19:31:22 -0700
Subject: Darrian Star Trigger - The Final Word (was Re: Naval Bases)

Scott Ripley wrote:
> 
> No, the star trigger caused a nova in a system, which caused an EMP wave in
> the entire Darrian Confederation, destroying ALL Electronics.

Not quite. Per Alien Module 8 - The Darrians, the Trigger was actually
two unrelated projects - remote meson communications and a subsurface
sun monitoring probe. The two happened to have a synergistic effect in
which, as it states explicitly on page 39, "stellar flares are triggered
within ten hours."

------------------------------

From: Thanasis Kinias <tkinias@primenet.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 17:54:46 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Traveller gender issues (long)

I would like to address four issues regarding gender:

1.  My experience with female players has been discouraging.  Like most,
my early groups (primary/secondary school) were exclusively male and
rather testosterone-addled.  University and later groups were more often
mixed, though unfortunately the typical female player was someone's
girlfriend, and disappeared when the relationship ended. The big problem
was when the GM's girlfriend joined the game, as most GMs were unable to
treat their lovers impartially (guess who got all the nifty gizmos and
always got to make the big kill?).  I would dearly like to see more
independent female gamers, but sometimes I despair.

2.  Cross-gender RPing I have observed was pretty bad.  Women playing men
tended to play stereotypical men, scratching, belching, bull-headed, etc.
Men playing women were worse, tending to act like drag queens and wanting
to sleep with _every_ man that came along.  Because of this, I have a
blanket prohibition against playing a character of another gender in my
games, unless I feel the player is exceptional.

3.  I think that the treatment of women in the Traveller universe should
be quite varied.  In my (New Era) pocket empire, the different worlds
treat this differently.  One world, Avsten, is a very "advanced" in this
regard, and asserts absolute equality between the sexes.  Another, Savria,
has lived with a Droyne population for millenia, and has adopted a similar
caste system of alpha (breeding) males, beta (non-breeding) males, and
females, and rigidly assigns roles to each.  Novomir, the capital,
survived a hellish civil war after the Collapse and is military-dominated;
thus, women tend to be less empowered than in early 21st-century Terran
"Western" culture.  However, military roles that do not require physical
strength (interceptor pilot, intel, etc.) find women, and noble women
excercise great "behind-the-scenes" power.  There is much room for
variation among 10,000 worlds.

4.  A potentially-dangerous topic is character stats for female humans.
No system I have played realistically portrays the physiological
differences between men and women.  This is, I believe, due to a desire
not to depict women as inferior.  However, women's lack of the physical
strength of men (in general) is obvious and should ideally be modelled.
In Rolemaster I devised a house rule that women would be penalised in
strength and would get bonuses in constitution and empathy.  I haven't
settled on a system for Trav yet.  Any suggestions, flames, comments?

				Thanasis Kinias
				tkinias@primenet.com


------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 18:10:24 MST7
Subject: Re: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no

> From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
> Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 11:55:35 -0700
> Subject: Re: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.  Want,...Well...

> I feel a rant coming on . . .
> 
> The human race needs all of it's members -- no matter how they're plumbed OR 
> wired -- to struggle for the future.

	WHOO WHOO YEAH (sounds of a large crowd cheering)!!!

	Well said, Rich!

	On the subject of having women game with us, I started when I was in 
college (no, not a late bloomer, it's just that D&D and Traveller 
didn't come out till then!) and our groups always seemed to end up 
about 50:50...in fact three marriages came out of that original bunch 
I started with (all still together, all still gaming...hmmmdo I sense 
a correlation?) so there never was too much stereotyping.

	My wife plays, and she doesn't need any 'snooky-wookums', 
stuff...in fact she tend's to be more along the lines of Ripley 
(Aliens) crossed with Arnie (anything!). She plays MOM, who protects 
and defends the group, (even when we don't want to be;-) and 
basically carries big guns, lots of big guns.  Woe betide the people who cross any of 
us...her last Traveller character like that was a retired Colonel in the 
Marine commandos, who had lots of contacts. 



Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
(520) 626-7379
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: Thanasis Kinias <tkinias@primenet.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 18:21:25 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Change in Imperial structure?

An observation on T4:

Has anyone else noticed that the role of the Imperium seems _very_
different in the first century than in the twelfth?  It's hard to pin this
down, but references to "Imperial Weapon Permits" (p. 73) and the
"Imperial Services" one contacts to regain lost ID (p. 66) seem to
indicate an Imperium much more involved in the life of the individual
citizen than that of CT which dealt more with member worlds than citizens.
It seems plausible that the _laissez-faire_ Imperium evolved as it grew
from the tiny Sylean Federation.  However, IIRC, it was the Sylean
_Federation_ which suggests a fair amount of member-world autonomy even
then.  Has anyone heard from MM or IG about this?

				Thanasis Kinias
				tkinias@primenet.com


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 20:21:19 -0700
Subject: Re: [T96#481] Stuff Allen Shock posts

JEFF ZEITLIN wrote:
> 
>  Just to clarify the Freelance Traveller policy at present:

Could you also clarify what and where Freelance Traveller is? I admit to
being unfamiliar with it but it sounds very interesting.

------------------------------

From: SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 22:08:47 -0400
Subject: GenCon Hardbacks

Hi again:

I was just wondering about something:

With many of you even *outside* the country receiving your hardbacks already,
has anyone who paid for your book at GenCon gotten your copy yet?

Thanks for the feedback,

Niko
SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com

------------------------------

From: SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 22:08:35 -0400
Subject: Playing Female Characters

(Was RPG Babes...)

Hello!

Simon John Harding asks:
>>How often would players in your games play female characters?<<

Actually, I am a female player (and sometimes GM) in a group where all the
other players are male.

We currently have two Classic Traveller campaigns going on:

In the first our PCs are on a military ship (comprised of square pegs who are
on average far too smart but individual for their own good and careers) and
caught in the midst of the beginning of the Fifth Frontier War.  All the
fellows are playing male PCs and I run one male and one female character.
 (Yes, we have two PCs each, but not for use in every session.)

In our second game (which I GM) is a merchanter campaign and two of the guys
have one each of male and female characters.

In our non-Traveller games (Yes, I admit that I play other systems -- hang
head in shame), the ratio for the guys playing characters male versus female
characters is about 5 to 1.  I myself tend to play a mix of about 50-50
overall, the ratio varying depending upon the game system.

Overall, the role-playing that goes on is done well and the fellows seem to
avoid being really obnoxious and stereotypical most of the time.  For their
female *and* male characters.  :)

I have played in games where everyone was female, and that group also tended
to have a mix of preferences for the sex of their characters.

Thanks for the air time....

Niko
SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com

------------------------------

From: athol-brose <cinnamon@one.net>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 23:19:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Unexplored Core subsector

> It's *not* the break with canon that upsets me; rather, it's the utter 
> silliness of having unexplored worlds in Core subsector.  I wouldn't have 
> raised a fuss about a new *consistent* background; a new *inconsistent* 
> one angers me.

There are 10 unexplored worlds in the core subsector. While Sylea and the
other heavily populated worlds are at the "north" (top) end of the map, the
unexplored worlds group towards the "south" (bottom). There are many populated
worlds, and a good feeling that more lie off the edges of the sector given.

I don't know. It certainly didn't stick in my craw that much. There may be
things about these worlds that we just don't know, like who lays claim to them
or astrographic survey information that reveals just why they haven't been
explored/colonized/exploited just yet. We just don't know.

And until we do, there's no point in getting upset about it.

I was dissapointed, as someone who has only played Traveller from a four-
book CT set in a universe of the GM's own design, in the lack of any substantial
data about the universe as it now stands in Traveller. I knew there was going 
to be a M0 book later, but I expected a little bit more in the core rules.


------------------------------

From: "Dan" <pould@netcom.ca>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 23:29:04 -0400
Subject: Re: GenCon Hardbacks

I am still waiting for the one I ordered on the phone and paid with my
credit card.  I left them an e-mail complaining and asking at least for a
reason for the delay while the softcover is out (and has been out for quite
some time now).  If any one has any idea what happened or heard from IG, I
would like to know what the H... is going on!  I am getting unhappy.

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

- ----------
> From: SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
> To: Traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: GenCon Hardbacks
> Date: 3 oct. 1996 22:08
> 
> Hi again:
> 
> I was just wondering about something:
> 
> With many of you even *outside* the country receiving your hardbacks
already,
> has anyone who paid for your book at GenCon gotten your copy yet?
> 
> Thanks for the feedback,
> 
> Niko
> SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #488
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Traveller-digest           Friday, 4 October 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 489

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. T4 Mileu 0 Campaign
         2. RE: The Archaean Thesis (longish)
         3. Re: The Archaean Thesis
         4. RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.     Want,...Well...
         5. RE: I've been thinking about novels again.
         6. More Errata?
         7. RE: Traveller gender issues (long)
         8. RE: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign
         9. Re: T4 HEPLAR fuel
        10. Gender issues and confusion
        11. Social Acceptance of RPGs
        12. Re: T4 HEPLAR fuel
        13. Re: Change in Imperial structure?
        14. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #488
        15. House rules: Hit Location

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 00:33:18 -0500
Subject: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign

>Just out of curiosity...hands up everyone who's running a Milleu 0 campaing.

Well, I am, but as I get into it, I am more and more discouraged with the
editing of the book.  Granted, my minor in college was Tech Writing, and it
is something of a pet peeve of mine, but I agree with whoever said earlier
that coming out with a poorly done product just to meet a deadline is a bad
move, it is better to not even mention a deadline.

Anyway, I don't mind not a lot of mileau stuff in the main book, but the
erros are killing me.  The errors in the weapons tables and the written
weapons section are pretty bad.

I don't want to be perceived as a nay-sayer, but I really have doubts about
the ability of any company to survive with continual errors like the ones in
T4.  They may not seem major to many of you, but I am not a real experienced
ref/player, and it is difficult to understand much of the stuff without the
years of CT experience.  I don't advocate a more complex system like TNE,
but I do want a system that I can understand.




Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 96 09:22:54 UT
Subject: RE: The Archaean Thesis (longish)

I just thought of another adventure hook based on this Archaean Thesis for 
those of us with campaigns set in the years after it's demise.  In the 150 
years of it's propagation, it was probably used by many to start political, 
idealogical and/or religious movements.  Even though the thesis is no longer 
adhered to by the scientific community, I imagine that backwater systems may 
still adhere to the errant beliefs, etc.

Imagine a group of fascist nationalists who consider themselves Aryans... er I 
mean Archaeans...  the PURE race of humaniti... or something like that.  Could 
be some pretty nasty adventure seeds...   <evil grin>

						---Boyd

------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 02:31:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: The Archaean Thesis

>>"Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com> sez,
>>>  Signal GK was a really great resource, but it made public knowledge the 
>>>deepest secret of the GDW Imperium backdrop -- <sigh>.

>Cool man Glenn Grant said:
>>Which is why, in my old CT campaign, I secretly decided that the Droyne
>>hypothesis was just as wrong phlogiston theory. The players were terribly
>>confused - kept coming across evidence that contradicted the Droyne-did-it
>>idea. Heh heh heh...

>"Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com> replied,
 
>Oh yeah, <gives Glenn a high five> waytago!!!  Tell me some of the things you 
>came up with (alternatives, etc).

Heh, well.... to be honest, I was always too pressed for time to actually
work it up in detail. So I never really decided who or what was responsible
for the Diaspora. I figured that the Droyne were just clients of the real
Ancients, and had been dispersed across Known Space the same way we had. I
mean, you didn't really believe that obviously patriarchal children's story
about "Grandfather", did you? Pfffhahaha!

The main bit of evidence the PCs had to figure out was a hollow asteroid, a
religious pilgrimage site and tourist trap known as the "Rock of Duriam",
which had once been an Ancient starship. Some surfaces could be made to
display an alien glyph language, quite untranslatable. But some of the
glyphs looked suspiciously like pictures of humans, Droyne, Vargr, Aslan,
etc. However, the interior architecture differed somewhat from Ancient
sites in the Marches (my campaign took place in a self-generated sector I
called [unimaginatively] the Frontier Extents, coreward of Dark Nebula).
Most of the thing was clearly not designed for Droyne, though a few little
rooms *were* designed for them.

The PCs never figured it out. Too bad nobody ever found the "go" sequence
that would've taken them on a little jaunt across the galaxy. And nobody
ever noticed that this rock was located in the "Gateway" subsector. Not
Fredrick Pohl fans, I guess. :)

It was probably even more confusing for the players because I hadn't
actually read Signal GK! Still haven't.

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
 "I see it now! Madness IS the way!" -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 96 07:15:21 UT
Subject: RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.     Want,...Well...

Hi all,

I wanted to add something because this topic about women happens to be an 
important one and very close to my heart on the matter.  I think that women 
should be portrayed in RPGs as stereotypes and sex objects; after all, that's 
about all they really are anyway.  When we get together to role-play, we don't 
want to be reminded of the tragic turn of events which led to "women's rights" 
or feminism.  After all, I firmly believe that women would be happier if they 
simply did what they were told.  Now don't get me wrong, women are very 
important!  Especially when they fix their hair just so...  

<hang on for a second>

Oh, please excuse me, I would say more, but my wife says it's time to turn off 
the computer and get to bed.

Goodnight all!   				;-)>   
					---Boyd

P.S.  Gentlemen, if you would just explain to your wives the concept of 
"tongue-in-cheek", I would appreciate it.

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 96 06:13:01 UT
Subject: RE: I've been thinking about novels again.

How about John Brunner's early stories?

						---Boyd

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 02:17:04 -0700
Subject: More Errata?

In looking over the Psionics rules, six "disciplines" are referred to
but only five are listed and detailed. The sixth, I'm assuming it to be
the historical "Special", doesn't appear to be listed/detailed anywhere.
Has anyone found it in their copy?

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 96 07:43:09 UT
Subject: RE: Traveller gender issues (long)

Thanasis Kinias said:
>I would like to address four issues regarding gender:
>
>1.  My experience with female players has been discouraging.  Like most,
<snip>
>The big problem
>was when the GM's girlfriend joined the game, as most GMs were unable >to 
treat their lovers impartially (guess who got all the nifty gizmos and
>always got to make the big kill?).  

Awww, boys will be boys...    ;-)>

>2.  Cross-gender RPing I have observed was pretty bad.  Women playing men
>Because of this, I have a
>blanket prohibition against playing a character of another gender in my
>games, unless I feel the player is exceptional.

Me too.  I played Dark Sun game opposite another male player who was playing a 
female PC.  It was just so darn *wierd*.  I've played dozens of female NPCs as 
a ref, but I just wasn't sure how role-play a barbarian-type fella travelling 
around with a female PC played by a male player.  Call me old-fashioned, but 
there are just some things I don't want to explore via the wonderful world of 
role-playing.   ;-)>

>3.  I think that the treatment of women in the Traveller universe should
>be quite varied.  
<snip>
> There is much room for variation among 10,000 worlds.

Yep.

>4.  A potentially-dangerous topic is character stats for female humans.

If a female player wants to dispute the strength mods for females in your 
campaign, and she's big/strong enough to whup yer ass, then let her have 
whatever she wants.   Just a bit of friendly advice.   ;-)>

					---Boyd




------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 96 07:28:56 UT
Subject: RE: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign

Chances are, IG is probably pretty sore about the errors they let slip by.  I 
doubt they will do so again.  Time will tell.  

					---Boyd

- ----------
From: 	owner-traveller@NS.MPGN.COM on behalf of Paul Walker
Sent: 	Friday, October 04, 1996 12:33 AM
To: 	traveller@NS.MPGN.COM
Subject: 	T4 Mileu 0 Campaign


I don't want to be perceived as a nay-sayer, but I really have doubts about
the ability of any company to survive with continual errors like the ones in
T4.  They may not seem major to many of you, but I am not a real experienced
ref/player, and it is difficult to understand much of the stuff without the
years of CT experience.  I don't advocate a more complex system like TNE,
but I do want a system that I can understand.

Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger


------------------------------

From: Neil Taylor <neil@uk.gdscorp.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:47:49 +0100
Subject: Re: T4 HEPLAR fuel

"Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net> wrote:
>Neil Taylor wrote:
>> "why do they stick to using l-hyd is the reaction mass for Heplar?"
>> "why not use Water instead?"
>> 
>> Trav ships are *volume* limited, not weight limited. There is an
>> advantage to using water for reaction mass as it's 9 times as dense,
>> so gives you 9 times the mass to chuck out for the same volume, and 9
>> times duration on thrust.
>
>Actually, I was under the impression it was a system of "chuck it out
>the back and light it on fire" sort of thing Water doesn't light well,
>and hydrogen gives a great bang for your buck

Uh - no - Hydrogen doesn't burn in a vacuum any more than water!

(T2300 used MHD devices, where they electrolysed water in advance,
then mixed and ignited the gases to power aturbine. For rocket thrust,
they vented their hot gases.)

TNE and T4 use gobs and gobs of fusion generated electricity to heat,
ionise and accellerate a gas. The accelleration is almost certainly
elctromagnetic, applied after the ionisation, as by doing so you can
significantly boost the exhaust velocity over that from simply heating
gases. To get the most out of your fuel mass, you want the highest
exhaust velocity...

- --
- --------------------------------------------------+
- -- Neil Taylor              neil@uk.gdscorp.com --|
- -- Graphic Data Systems Ltd,                    --| 
- -- Wellington House, East Rd, Cambridge CB1 1BH --|
- --------------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 02:10:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Gender issues and confusion

My experiences must certainly be exceptional.  I've been gaming for 17 
years and all the games I've ever been in had at least on female player.  
For the past 7 years I've been in a group with 2 female players and 2-3 
male players.  Other folks I know of similar age ranges have at least 30% 
female players/GMs in their groups.  

Cross-gender role-playing is common.  Not everyone does this, but most of
us do.  We haven't had any problems with gender stereotypes.  I don't know
if this is a regional thing, related to age, length of time gaming, or
what, but my experiences seem rather far from the norm here.  I do know
that when I went to Origins this year there were a whole lot more women
there than when I last went to GenCon (around 1988).  It was still only
around 15-20%, but Cons tend to have fewer women at them than most gaming
groups I know of. 


Puzzled...


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

From: Pete Blake <peteb@digicon-egr.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 10:12:33 +0100
Subject: Social Acceptance of RPGs

Hi,

> Hmmm . . . I thought we Yanks had a monopoly on the social-acceptance
> problems. How widesread is this phenomenon in Canada, the UK and
> Australia?

Interesting call this.  The few people I speak to about it usually think
its a bit childish to be "playing games" at my age (28).  My mum
certainly does :-).  However, if I ever manage to convince them to come
over and sit down and watch a game, then they quickly see the fun in it 
Some say they'd like to try, others are not so interested.  I guess
that's normal.

As a rule I try not to advertise the fact that I'm an RPGer - I think
over here it has a bit of a 'geek' image - and given that I also program
computers for a living I can't win :-).  So I stick to talking about my
other hobbies:  karate, rugby and surfing - somehow the response is
always better :-)

Pete Blake,
Sussex, UK.

------------------------------

From: Neil Taylor <neil@uk.gdscorp.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 10:14:00 +0100
Subject: Re: T4 HEPLAR fuel

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> > I note that although it's mainly
> > CT, we now have HEPLAR as a lower tech M-drive.  Now the HEPLAR rules
> > show a twin component unit: PP + fuel. Since the drive converts fuel
> > to ionised plasma and accellartes that for fuel, the first question I
> > asked myself was:
> 
> > "why do they stick to using l-hyd is the reaction mass for Heplar?"
> > "why not use Water instead?"
> >
> > Trav ships are *volume* limited, not weight limited. There is an 
> > advantage to using water for reaction mass as it's 9 times as dense, 
> > so gives you 9 times the mass to chuck out for the same volume, and 9 
> > times duration on thrust. 
> 
> But for a given energy input, the exhaust velocity (and thus the
> thrust) of the drive depends on the molecular weight of the exhaust.
>
> The higher the molecular weight, the *lower* the thrust. 
> Water has a molecular weight of 18, 16 of that is from the oxygen. LH2
> has a molecular weight of *two*. At Heplar temps, you are dealing with
> isolating H and O *atoms*. 
> 
> So we put in 1 H2O molecule and 18 "units" of energy (one unit being
> that required to boost something with a molecular weight of 1 to a
> speed of 1). Output is 2 H atoms at a speed of one, and 1 O atom at a
> speed of 1/16th.
> 
> Now consider putting in 9 H2 molecules and the same 18 units of energy.
> You get 18 H atoms at a speed of 1. 
> 
> Guess which gives you a bigger boost? Thrust is determined by exhaust
> velocity and fuel flow. Period. So for the same fuel flow, LH2 gives a
> lot more thrust. About 9 times as much. :-)

2 cases: 1 is thermal energy, where the energy per molecule is fixed
by the temp. and then the velocity by E= 0.5 M V^2. In this case the
velocity is reduced...

	Em (energy/molecule) is function fT of temp. and constant
	Em = fT = 0.5 m v^2
	v = sqrt( 2 fT / m ) = k sqrt(1/m)

	the impulse per molecule is	m v = k sqrt(m)
	total impulse I is N m v, where N = Mtot / m
	
	I = N m v = Mtot / m * k sqrt(m) = Mtot * k sqrt(1/m)

so for a fixed temp., the exhaust velocity slowdown knackers your
thrust, and the best current rocket drives use the best thrust ration
fuel of H2 + O

Case 2: electrical energy, where you accelarate a plasma through an
intense field. The gas now behaves differently as you vary the energy
per molecule as you accellerate it, and distribute the enrgy equally
between atoms (atoms, 'cos it's a fully ionised plasma)

	Etot = 0.5 Mtot v^2
we discharge the same mass/sec, (lower volume), so exhaust volume is 
the same, we just stretch it 9 times further
You can investigate changing parameters:

	v = sqrt (2 Etot / Mtot)
	I = Mtot v = sqrt ( 2 Etot Mtot)

thrust T = I/sec = sqrt (2 Power Mtot/sec) If you try overloading the
drive, or cutting back on power you see that thrust is proprtional to
sqrt(Power), and sqrt mass rate. If you flood the drive with extra
fuel: eg, the LHyd volume, but water you get 9 times mass rate, and 3
times thrust. Better to throttle back the mass flow and get 9 times
the impluse at normal thrust. (But still handy for overdrive!)
 
Since Trav uses Gobs and Gobs of fusion power to boost the exhaust, I
have assumed that the energy goes only partly to thermal energy to
produce the plasma and mainly to the subsequent accelleration of said
plasma

Does this make sense?
Too much maths?

------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 02:18:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Change in Imperial structure?

 Thanasis Kinias wrote:

>An observation on T4:

>Has anyone else noticed that the role of the Imperium seems _very_
>different in the first century than in the twelfth?  It's hard to pin this
>down, but references to "Imperial Weapon Permits" (p. 73) and the
>"Imperial Services" one contacts to regain lost ID (p. 66) seem to
>indicate an Imperium much more involved in the life of the individual
>citizen than that of CT which dealt more with member worlds than citizens.
>It seems plausible that the _laissez-faire_ Imperium evolved as it grew
>from the tiny Sylean Federation.  However, IIRC, it was the Sylean
>_Federation_ which suggests a fair amount of member-world autonomy 
>even then.  Has anyone heard from MM or IG about this?

This makes sense to me.  With only one Sector (or possibly subsector,
though to me this seems rather silly).  The Imperium is a whole lot
smaller.  Even if they only have Jump 3, getting from one end to the other
takes on 10-12 weeks, not several years.  A smaller Empire, especially a
vigorous and new one, would likely be a lot more direct interest in its
(many fewer) member worlds, simply because such interest was possible. 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com



------------------------------

From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 10:43:22 +0100
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #488

LACK OF MILIEU 0 BACKGROUND
- ---------------------------

bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) asks:

>problem with T4 - there is far too little background and adventure info to
>let people run a campaign with it out of the box. TNE, for all its flaws,
>...
>The adventures they include don't help much - one is set in the
>...

Precisely why BITS published "The Long Way Home" to give new referees (and
old) somewhere to adventure in Milieu 0. The adventure has been carefully
chosen to use 'canon' background but is sufficiently flexible to be adapted
to most 'custom' universes.

"Victor J. Raymond" <RAYMOND@macalester.edu> then said:
>And I guess I am disturbed by the "fast food' mentality being advocated here by
>Mr. Macintosh.  Whatever happened to the days of completely original campaigns;
>something many readers of this list may recall?

The problem with this idea is that it's fine for us established players
(typically college-educated in our 20s or 30s) to run up campaigns from
scratch. HOWEVER, the market that T4 must address are the teenagers of
today. This is a completely different generation whose imagination seems to
have been squashed by "fast food" computer games, etc., who _expect_ to be
given things on a plate (oven? what's that - oh, it's ok, I've found the
microwave instructions), and who rarely bother to pick up a book (fiction or
otherwise) unless it's mostly pictures. Sorry to sound cynical, but
pregenerated background, adventures, etc. is a _must_ to attract new blood.

Ok, so I'm not thrilled about the adventures they _did_ put in. The only
solution is to keep printing stuff ourselves (BITS/CORE already have the
next project underway - watch this space!)

FEMALE PCs
- ----------

>Subject: Re: RPG Babes..kinda LONG
>> How widesread is this phenomenon in Canada, the UK and Australia?

Our AD&D/Traveller group has up to 3 women and 6 men in it. In both AD&D and
Traveller one or two of the men also play female characters (I hesitate to
call Barry's sex-mad female half-orc a "woman").

Thanasis Kinias <tkinias@primenet.com> then commented:
>The big problem
>was when the GM's girlfriend joined the game, as most GMs were unable to
>treat their lovers impartially (guess who got all the nifty gizmos and
>always got to make the big kill?).

Of our members, 2 are the wives of male players (one is my own wife).
Needless to say I am totally impartial, and have not yet succumbed to the
"You're sleeping on the sofa tonight if you kill me" threat. The other
couple who play do not, by any means, work together...

>Women playing men tended to play stereotypical men, scratching, belching,
>bull-headed, etc.

Sorry, you mean there's some other type of man? :-)

>Men playing women were worse, tending to act like drag queens and wanting
>to sleep with _every_ man that came along.

This _is_ usually more of a problem. Thanasis' description of the differing
roles the sexes play on worlds even within a subsector is exactly how I see
things too.

"Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU> then said:
>didn't come out till then!) and our groups always seemed to end up 
>about 50:50...in fact three marriages came out of that original bunch 
>I started with (all still together, all still gaming...hmmmdo I sense 
>a correlation?) so there never was too much stereotyping.

I met my wife through playing Traveller. What more need I say?

>	My wife plays, and she doesn't need any 'snooky-wookums', 
>stuff...in fact she tend's to be more along the lines of Ripley 
>(Aliens) crossed with Arnie (anything!).

Hmmm. Sounds remarkably familiar! :-) Except that my wife is more subtle and
prefers assassin type characters...

SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com then adds:
>Actually, I am a female player (and sometimes GM) in a group where all the
>other players are male.

There you are. I've been talking on and off with Niko for years and hadn't
even realised - shows you how equalising e-mail is, eh?

TRAVELLER CCG
- -------------

The BITS/CORE group is already working on two card game concepts. Note the
avoidance of the word 'collectable'. These games are intended to be such
that players can create their own cards and will be PLAYABLE, not
collectable. They will also be easily adaptable to equivalent computer
versions. IG have asked us to look into the matter further.

If anyone has any particularly strong views on this subject, please feel
free to e-mail me or Jo Grant (Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com).
Our concepts are by no means set in concrete, so we're open to suggestions.

LATE HARDBACKS
- --------------
"Dan" <pould@netcom.ca> said:
>some time now).  If any one has any idea what happened or heard from IG, I
>would like to know what the H... is going on!  I am getting unhappy.

My understanding is that initial printer faults delayed the first hardbacks.
Marc Miller then had to sign them all. And handling nearly 3000 mailings of
books isn't a small task. Once this is all out of the way I would hope that
IG's schedules get back to normal.

Andy Lilly :-)
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)


------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 06:26:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: House rules: Hit Location

Hit Location Table

For every successful hit, roll two dice, pre-selecting one die as "tens"
and the second as "ones". 

Roll damage, reducing dice if location is armored.

If no stats are reduced to zero by the hit, see "Superficial" for secondary
effects of wound.

If 1 stat reduced to 0, see "Minor" wound effect. Minor Wound effects such
as fractures (Frac) and impaired organs (Impd) are temporary and will heal
completely with proper medical attention.

If 2 stats reduced to 0, see "Major" wound effect. Even with proper medical
attention, Major Wounds effects can result in character being permanently
impaired, depending on Tech Level of medical facility.

When rolling damage, any roll of two sixes is a Critical Hit, which is
counted as a Major Wound, even if no stats reduced to 0.

Generally, effects are cumulative: if a Major Wound is received,
Superficial and Minor effects are also applied.

Generally, hit is received on side nearest the attacker. When needed, roll
1D for Right (1-3) or Left (3-6).

                    Hit Location Table

    Location        Superficial     Minor       Major

11  hand            Drop items      Frac        Impd/Amp
12  wrist           Drop items      Frac        Impd/Amp
13  lower arm       Drop items      Frac        Impd/Amp
14  elbow           Drop items      Frac        Impd/Amp
15  upper arm       Drop items      Frac        Impd/Amp
16  upper arm       Drop items      Frac        Impd/Amp
21  shoulder        Drop Items      Frac        Impd/Amp
22  shoulder        Drop items      Frac        Impd/Amp
23  cranium/ear     Stuns 1 rd    Frac/Conc     Brain
24  cranium/crown   Stuns 1 rd    Frac/Conc     Brain
25  face/eye        Stuns 1 rd    Fract/Impd    Brain
26  face/jaw        Stuns 1 rd    Frac/Impd     Throat 1p/r
31  neck                          Throat 1p/r   Spine
32  top of torso                    Frac        Spine
33  top of torso                    Frac        Artery 2p/r
34  upper torso                     Frac        Artery 2p/r
35  upper torso                   Lung 1p/r     Heart 2p/r
36  mid-torso                     Lung 1p/r     Spine
41  mid-torso                     Lung 1p/r     Artery 1p/r
42  upper abdomen                 Intl 1p/r     Intl 2p/r
43  upper abdomen                 Intl 1p/r     Intl 2p/r
44  lower abdomen                 Intl 1p/r     Intl 2p/r
45  lower abdomen                 Intl 1p/r     Intl 2p/r
46  pelvis                          Frac        Spine
51  groin                           Impd        Intl 1p/r
52  hip/buttocks                    Frac        Impd hip
53  hip/buttocks                    Frac        Impd hip
54  upper leg       Fall            Frac        Artery 2p/r
55  upper leg       Fall            Frac        Impd leg/Amp
56  above knee      Fall            Frac        Impd leg/Amp
61  above knee      Fall            Frac        Impd leg/Amp
62  knee            Fall            Frac        Impd knee/Amp
63  shin/calf       Fall            Frac        Impd leg/Amp
64  shin/calf       Fall            Frac        Impd leg/Amp
65  ankle/heel      Fall            Frac        Impd ankle/Amp
66  foot            Fall            Frac        Impd foot/Amp

#p/r = character receives additional points of damage per
        subsequent round, until medical attention received. 
        At referee's discretion, extra damage may cease before
        character dies.
Drop Items = may not be automatic.
Stun = Stunned characters may not attack or move for 1 round,
        longer in the case of more serious wounds. May require
        rest to recover fully. 
Fall = May not be automatic (see below). May incur extra damage,
        usually 1pt, depending on situation.
Frac = Fracture. Referee may determine specific bone fractured.
Impd = Impaired function (see above).
Conc = Brain concussion. May be mild, causing headaches, or
        serious, causing migraines, dizzyness, seizures, etc.
        Severity increases if character loses consciousness.
Lung = Lung puncture, causes additional damage. Usually
        accompanied by fractured ribs.
Throat = Throat wound impairs breathing, causes additional damage.
Intl = Internal organ hit, causes additional damage.
Brain = At referee's discretion, effects may include partial
        or total paralysis, coma, speech impairment, blindness,
        personality change, seizures, etc, depending on amount of
        damage taken and swiftness of medical attention. 
Spine = Almost always causes paralysis. Extent and severity to
        be determined by referee.
Heart = Heart injury causes additional damage. Usually
        accompanied by fractured ribs.
Artery = Major artery hit, causes additional damage.
Amp = Potential amputation; if large amount of damage received in
        a single hit, amputation may occur, at referee's 
        discretion. If so, character receives further 1 to 3 pts 
        damage per subsequent round until medical attention 
        received. Energy weapon hits do not incur extra damage,
        as wound is automatically cauterized.

Referee should use judgement at all times to determine specific
location/effects. For instance, a Superficial Wound to "cranium/ear" is
clearly a head hit close to the ear, whereas a Minor or Major Wound could
mean skull fracture, impaired hearing, or concussion, perhaps all three,
depending on the amount of damage received.

If "Stopping Power" house rule is being used, head and leg hits incur a
negative DM when charcter rolls to remain standing. Any roll of two ones is
a Spectacular "Success" - in which case the character not only remains
standing, but is not immediately aware that he or she has been hit,
regardless of the amount of injury sustained!

For hits from automatic fire, shotguns, or explosives, it is generally
assumed that the rolled hit location is for the most serious of a group of
wounds (which are not rolled).
 
Separate Hit Location tables should be prepared for each non-humanoid
sophont species.


- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
 "I see it now! Madness IS the way!" -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #489
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Traveller-digest           Friday, 4 October 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 490

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. [none]
         2. Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 08:21:27 -0400
         3. Re: Naval Bases
         4. Re: 
         5. Re: Anyone in California have hardbound?
         6. Re: RPG Babes
         7. RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.    
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #488
         9. Re: CCG Idea
        10. Realistic Income Model Proposal
        11. Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign
        12. Re: Meet Mr. Zhodani
        13. Re: T4 HEPLAR fuel
        14. Errors in T4
        15. Re: Time travel 
        16. Women
        17. Re: Naval Bases
        18. My Year 0 Campaign

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tc@library.solent.ac.uk (Timothy Collinson)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 96 13:01:39 GMT
Subject: [none]

Page 1
~EXTERNALREPLIED : traveller@MPGN.COM

>From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
>I take it "chuffed" means "damned pleased."

I guess you could put it that way - a liberal translation
though - I would have been castigated in my Chaucer classes
for being *that* loose!


>Congrads, Timothy. As the Dadster to a nearly perfect young lady, age 15 Terran years,
>all I can say is; enjoy it while she's young!

>I say "nearly perfect" because she's a great kid -- good grades, great personality, comp
>literate, Internet savy, good looking, etc -- but she doesn't game -- and, believe me, I
>tried to get her to play . . . .

Oh well, I can dream.  I thought this might be one way of
getting a game of Traveller... introducing them as 'bed time'
stories.

(Didn't Tolkien start 'The Hobbit' to while away a car
journey?)

>Rich Ostorero, aka Sophia's Dadster

Funnily enough, 'Sophia' was in the running at an early
stage...  Can't recall what happened to it.  I don't think my
wife was quite the fan of one of the best ever English novels
('Tom Jones') that I was.

Timothy
"Taglines are for those with better mail software than I'm
allowed."

------------------------------

From: Clint Fishback <beowulfe@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 08:21:27 -0400
Subject: Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 08:21:27 -0400

unsubscribe traveller-digest "Clint Fishback" <beowulfe@mindspring.com>

------------------------------

From: fenris@solon.com (Derek Dees)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 07:37:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> and several others have offered excellent
posts on Naval Bases in systems. I've enjoyed them and found them to be
tasty food for thought. here is my 0.02 credits worth.

One of the things that I've noticed missing from the posts is the purpose
of the base. Is it a major refitting/recruiting base, a frontier outpost, a
trip-wire station on one of the fronts, or a transfer point/resupply
station, an R&D base, administrative center, or factory base. Also, it
could be a combination of any of the preceding types.

Without answering these questions, it is difficult to determine how
defended the base is. After all, a tripwire is there only to warn, so it
would consist of something to buy time and something really fast to provide
a warning to the next link in the chain. If it is a major center or supply
point (or a combination, which I suspect would be common) it would be more
heavily defended.

For the rest of my post, lets assume it is a major center combining two or
more of the above types and will be defended by a significant contribution
of forces. Note that one of the operational assumptions that I make is that
since men are "cheaper" than ships, large expensive ships will be minized.

Second assumption for the example: We are defending our solar system.

First layer:    Trip Wire outposts in the outer most orbit. They would
watch for ships jumping in. They would be automated and visited by
repair/patrol ships.

Second Layer:  Bases on Saturn and Jupiter. These would be built into the
moons and serve to support/supply transient ships, the first layer of SDBs
(substantially built, but small and lots of them), and ships designed to
deny the use of the gas giants to the incoming forces.

Third layer: Several small bases scattered through the asteroid belts, most
likely buried inside substantial asteroids. These would again support a
large number of fighters and SDBs.

Fourth Layer: Larger scale SDBs and as many heavy ships or ships of the
line that can be accumulated for point reinforcement to cut off the
incomping OPFOR. Also, if affordable, a scattering of satellites that
launched "stealth" missles designed to act as ship killers.

Final Layer: Minimal HEO/LEO defenses, mostly limited to defending orbital
repair installations and facilities. These facilities are limited to repair
and as transshipment points for supplies and personal. There may also be
manufacturing facilities located in the Asteroid belt, but those would be
included with layer three. On the planet however, would be a number of
"one" shot missle/meson gun emplacements, but these would be interspersed
among the population and manufacturing centers and the majority of the
personal would be dispersed among the population to act as insurgent
forces.

"Total" conquest of the this system would definately be expensive working
in through the layers and as long as the troops are trained and motivated a
very tough nut (I think). It would, however, require substantial
expenditures in build up and then maintenence and training costs. This
would of course lead to my first assumption, that the facility is a large
base in an important localtion (sub-sector capital or resource rich
system).

Any comments?





Derek

fenris@solon.com
http://www.solon.com/~fenris

Shiny Bits - Occaisional BG Theurge

Homebrew - If it's a hobby, it's not a problem!

And we are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night.
                        M. Arnold "Dover Beach"




------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 04 Oct 96 08:53:42 EDT
Subject: Re: 

- --- Someone Yanking the Golden Eject Cords wrote:
unsubscribe traveller-digest "Clint Fishback" <beowulfe@mindspring.com>

- --- end of quoted material ---
BEOWULF? he uses the beloved BEOWULF? has this man no shame? no fear of the
mighty Far Future Legal Team? Doesn't he realize that invoking the revered name
of our favourite Free Trader is heresy?
Call out the Torturers!!!




<snicker!>

------------------------------

From: Matthew Mactyre <mmactyre@concentric.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 06:05:51 -0700
Subject: Re: Anyone in California have hardbound?

>Has anyone in California received their hardbound T4 from IG?
>
>I have not, and am getting worried that some disgruntled postal worker
>is itching for a PGMP ( to take to work) after 'aquiring' the book.

Hi Kevin

Watch that "disgruntled postal worker" stuff. I happen to work for the 
Imperial Xboat Service and I can tell you we are the most stable group of 
Imperial employees around. REALLY!!!  I WON'T LIE TO YOU.  AH! THE 
SPIDERS...  <grin>

Really though, I would give Imperium Games a call.  I live in Nevada, and 
received my copy about a week ago.

Matthew Mactyre
mmactyre@concentric.net
http://www.cris.com/~mmactyre/
PGP public key available on request


------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 15:05:45 +0100
Subject: Re: RPG Babes

     Has anyone seen WEG's D6 system rulebook?
     I flicked through it in my local hobby shop (the only decent one left, 
     now that Virgin have removed half the shelf space that used to be for 
     RPGs), and I couldn't believe some of the artwork used.  It made Macho 
     Women With Guns look tame, and I presume the D6 System isn't a parody 
     (in fact, it's exactly the kind of thing that MWWG *is* parodying).  
     Haven't WEG realised that it's the 20th century?
     
     I attended an interesting talk at Euro GenCon given by one of the 
     authors of Dragonlance 5th age about the future of roleplaying.  He 
     talked about how TSR were trying to get at the mostly untapped market 
     - women and older people.  Apparently, they had considered an RPG for 
     women, but thought it would be too patronising.  I think WEG must 
     still be squarely aiming for the male adolescent market.
     
     
     Most of the groups I've played with in the last 5 years have had one 
     or two women out of 4-6 players.  They do tend to be wives/girlfriends 
     and most (with a couple of exceptions) probably wouldn't play unless 
     their other half did.
     
     I did used to share a lift to work (which was about 40 miles from 
     home) with a female gamer, but we only got to game together once.
     
     My wife plays in my group, but there are only some games she likes 
     (unlike myself, who is addicted to gaming).  I don't *think* I treat 
     her in a preferential way, other than because she is inexperienced 
     compared to the rest of the group (but I do that with any new or shy 
     player in a group I'm refereeing).
     
     
     Proot!
     Liam

------------------------------

From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 06:19:59 +0000
Subject: RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.    

Boyd,

You caught me at 6:15am, bleary eyed and no caffiene yet,,,,, 
Needless to say, I'm awake now. And I have only one thing to say:

I don't need Stu to explain *anything* to me!

:-P

Suz



> I wanted to add something because this topic about women happens to be an 
> important one and very close to my heart on the matter.  I think that women 
> should be portrayed in RPGs as stereotypes and sex objects; after all, that's 
> about all they really are anyway.  When we get together to role-play, we don't 
> want to be reminded of the tragic turn of events which led to "women's rights" 
> or feminism.  After all, I firmly believe that women would be happier if they 
> simply did what they were told.  Now don't get me wrong, women are very 
> important!  Especially when they fix their hair just so...  
> 
> <hang on for a second>
> 
> Oh, please excuse me, I would say more, but my wife says it's time to turn off 
> the computer and get to bed.
> 
> Goodnight all!   				;-)>   
> 					---Boyd
> 
> P.S.  Gentlemen, if you would just explain to your wives the concept of 
> "tongue-in-cheek", I would appreciate it.
> 
 
Suz Dollar
suzd@goodnet.com

*Nothing is really work, 
 unless you would rather
 be doing something else*
           --James M. Barrie

------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:30:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #488

>From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN) sez,

>pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant) hath writ...
>
>>Certainly plausible. The more powerful the computer, the bigger
>> your coolant system must be. In Drexler's _Foresight_ 
>>newsletter, I read a speculative article which suggested it 
>>might be possible to construct a desktop nanoputer that could, 
>>in theory at least, outperform all the human brains on the
>> planet combined. Problem is, it would need a coolant system the 
>>size of a ten-storey building...

> Given "present" technology, I'll agree with this.  But what
> happens when you have room-temperature superconductors, where
> energy loss and heat generation (really the same thing) are
> absolutely minimized?

Actually, the machine described in the article wasn't an electronic
computer, but a nano-mechanical one - it used diamond-based molecular rods
as logic elements. Sounds crazy, but in fact it would be blazingly fast,
and operate on a scale far smaller than the electronic pathways of printed
circuits. The heat results not from electrical resistance, but from
*friction*. Per calculation, there'd be less waste heat, but since this
thing would operate at insanely fast parallel speeds, the heat produced
would be enormous.

>This was a big deal in real life not too
> long ago when someone supposedly found or made a superconductor
> that seemed to function as such at inexpensively achievable
> temperatures (liquid nitrogen, IIRC, as compared to near 0K).
> Is RTSC a reasonable expectation for TL11/12?

Most certainly. But an RTSC computer, even a tiny nano-assembled electronic
one with single-electron pathways, would still be larger and slower than a
nano-mechanical computer of the same power. Or so Drexlerites claim. We'll
have to wait and see.

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
 "I see it now! Madness IS the way!" -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:32:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: CCG Idea

On 3 Oct 1996, Rob Prior wrote:
>  
> I like this idea.  I've been trying to come up with something similar myself,
> but with one key difference: I don't like the idea of 'collectable', so I'm
> trying to some up with something that doesn't require buying new cards. 
> Instead, the 'hardware' and 'people' cards would be created based on game
> stats, while the 'tactics' cards would allow different options for play.
> 
> This is very tentative, as I only have NetRunner, and no incentive to buy
> more than the starter set.  (Got it as a teaching aid.)  I know there are
> many games out there, but most of them seem to share the characteristic that
> newer cards are more powerful than older cards, creating a 'card race' for
> players.  I'd like to avoid that syndrome.

   You might want to think like a StarFleet Battles player and use a Code
Red based damage allocation system. Combine it with a tactics card set and
you could have a workable system. (Bigger weapons get more cards, armour
subtracts...)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Mark Ayers <mark@bbic.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 06:29:55 -0700
Subject: Realistic Income Model Proposal

Request for Comment:

Realistic Income Model: a Traveller House Rules Expansion

The following is a proposed house rule for adding realism, and thus =
complexity, to economics of the Traveller universe. I am indebted to the =
work previously done by the creators of the Trillion Credit Squadron and =
I am sure others whose contributions I do not remember.

Base Income:	CR10,000

Tech Level / Port Mod (%)                   	Trade Mod (%)
	  A	    B		C	 D	   X
E      170     150     130     98      65        Ag      120
D      160     140     120     90      60        In      140
C      150     130     110     82      55        Na       80
B      140     120     100     75      50        Ni       80
A      130     110      90     68      45        Po       80
9      120     100      80     60      40        Ri      160
8	 110	    90	70	 52	   35
7	 100	    80	60	 45	   30

Social Class Modifier (%)
C       2169     7       100
B       1171     6        85
A        633     5        72
9        342     4        61
8        185     3        52

Usage: Base Income * Tech Port Mod * all Trade Mods * Social Mod

Comments:
1. Base income of CR10,000 comes from T4 retirement pay after 8 terms.
2. Class C port at tech level 11 (average imperial) is the start point.
3. Ports class C or better, a step in tech level equals a 10% gain in =
income.
4. Ports class B and A equal a 20% gain in income over the lower port.
5. Class D ports equal 75% of a class C port of the same tech level.
6. No port equals 50% of a class C port of the same tech level.
8. Trade modifications are directly from Trillion Credit Squadron.
9. Social levels below 7 are 15% lower than the next higher social =
level.
10. Social levels above 7 are 85% greater than the next lower social =
level.
11. Anything not included on the chart is the realm of the referee.

Examples:
John Normal is an average citizen (SS 7)
Lord Bern is a Baron (SS C)
Bill Labor is a minimum wage worker (SS 3)

1. On a totally average imperial planet with a class C port and an =
average
imperial technology level; John Normal makes Cr10,000, Lord Bern makes
MCr21.96 and Bill Labor makes Cr5200.

2. On a rich, agricultural planet with a class A port and a high =
imperial
technology level of 14; John Normal makes Cr32,640, Lord Bern makes
MCr70.79 and Bill Labor make Cr16,973.

3. On a non-agricultural, non-industrial planet with no port and 1970s
technology level; John Normal makes Cr1920, Lord Bern makes MCr4.16 and
Bill Labor makes Cr998.


Notes on other uses:
1. Income for social level 7 can be used as per capita GDP.
2. General tax burden can be 10% + government level.

------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 09:57:45 +0000
Subject: Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 
> Chances are, IG is probably pretty sore about the errors they let slip by.  I
> doubt they will do so again.  Time will tell.

Never stopped GDW

------------------------------

From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:53:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Meet Mr. Zhodani

> Ethan Henry insulted my canon carrying creditials! 8^)

Hey! I never got a badge or anything!
Damn my uncertified canon! Where can I get such credentials?

> >Hm. How could he have been racing the Zhodani to the Marches when the
> >Marches
> >are where the Imeprium met the Zhodani? The Zhodani fist contacted the
> >3rd
> >Imperium circa 500 3I, according to "Imperial Encyclopedia".
> >(Ethan brandishes his canon wildly).
> 
> (Rob whips out his canon to parry.)
> 
> This was the first astrographic /contact/ between the 3rd Imperium and the 
> Zhodani Consulate , but racial Solomani and racial Zhodani had /known/
> about each other for quite some time before the founding of the 3rd
> Imperium. The 1st Imperium had /some/ contact with the Zhdant-ites, and
> Cleon's historians would have inherited at least some of this knowlege
> (IMHO).

Well, the Solommani knew about the Darrians and probably the Sworld Worlders
too, but I doubt that Cleon gave much of a care about any of them. At
any rate, I am at a distinct disadvantage, since I'm at work and
I don't have my trusty library handy. I expect that Cleon would have
been more worried about the Vargr, what being a) not human b) closer
and c) reputed for being very nasty (giant debates about the lack
of reality in Vargr corsairs aside). Hell, Cleon was probably more
worried about the Vilani(!), as they could actually pose a serious
threat to his empire. The willingness of the Vilani to join the new
Imperium was probably a big relief. Actually, if it wasn't for
that damned rift in Corridor sector, Cleon may just as well have wooed
the Zhos diplomatically, creating a vey different third imperium...
with those evil non-psi Vilani from the new Restored Empire of
the Stars (see, I forgot the Vilani word!) beating in from anti-spinward...
Now _that's_ an alternate Traveller hsitory!

Anyways, I don't think Cleon "pushed" towards the marches that much at all.
He was probably more interested in staying in the denser parts of the 
galaxy, reclaiming old  Imperial turf. Mucho easier than breaking
new sod out in the boonies.

> 
> (Rob drops his old rusty canon and picks up a new shiny one...)
> 
> For an interesting twist very relevent to this discussion, take a look
> at the Library Data in T4. Look up "Zhodani"...

Hm. I'll have to get my copy of T4 first. However, being in T4 doesn't
mean that it's common or even uncommon knowledge in the new Imperium.
i.e. jump-6 gets mentioned too.


Oh, and I _know_ there are Toronto-based people on this list. I finally
got out of Ottawa (no Trav players!), so, anyone interested in
starting a campaign, or can I glom onto someone else's?

Ethan  ehenry@magmacom.com


------------------------------

From: "Cmdr Hold'Em" <marz@hotstar.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 10:00:47 +0000
Subject: Re: T4 HEPLAR fuel

Neil Taylor wrote:
> >Actually, I was under the impression it was a system of "chuck it out
> >the back and light it on fire" sort of thing Water doesn't light well,
> >and hydrogen gives a great bang for your buck
> 
> Uh - no - Hydrogen doesn't burn in a vacuum any more than water!

Perhaps my casual approach was too casual, that was an analogy--
I know there would be an ignition chamber where O2 would be added so it would burn
The analogy was from a description of afterburners in a book I read along time ago (no, 
don't remember which book)

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:58:29 -0400
Subject: Errors in T4

>I don't want to be perceived as a nay-sayer, but I really have doubts about
>the ability of any company to survive with continual errors like the ones in
>T4.  They may not seem major to many of you, but I am not a real experienced
>ref/player, and it is difficult to understand much of the stuff without the
>years of CT experience.  I don't advocate a more complex system like TNE,
>but I do want a system that I can understand.

The problem here is assuming that just because the rulebook was riddled with
errors,
their other publications will be as well. STARSHIPS seems to be a bit behind
schedule. HOPEFULLY this is because they are taking the time to thoroughly
proofread it and make sure it is as error-free as humanly possible. They
don't have to rush with it; none of us would really complain if it came out
a little late, but was of higher quality in the editing department.
        Imperium Games seems to listen to their customers, particularly the
ones here. A major theme I've been seeing on the Net is annoyance and
dissapointment with the editing of the rulebook. Assuming that they want to
make money, they'll correct this problem. As much as I love Traveller, I
WILL give up on it if it turns into another MegaTraveller fiasco as far as
errata goes. (Keep in mind it took MT a NUMBER of printings to get rid of
the errors. T4 has had only one so far. let's cu them some slack-for now.)
                                Allen


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 10:00:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Time travel 

Tom Ellis writes:

 "I'd be interested in how you 'discovered' this, and I would settle for
  being able to send a ship back in time a week, arriving as soon as it
  leaves so to speak ;>"

I don't know how Mr. Erickson discovered it, but I can suggest how 
you can *do* it:

Position your ship several light-years away from the world on which you 
wish to land in the past.

Work up a velocity of a large fraction of c *away* from the planet.
The relativistic effects skew your "plane of simultaneity" so that 
what *was* the planet's past is now contemporary with you.

Make a jump (or a quick series of them) to the planet.  Assuming the 
effective average speed of jump travel is the same in all frames of 
reference, you will arrive on the planet before you made your first 
jump toward it.

Of course, the distance from the target place-and-time, the speed of 
the ship away from the target, and the jump schedule all depend on 
how far back in time you want to go.

If Mr. Erickson has a different way to do it, I'd be very interested 
to hear it.

Earl Wajenberg



------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 10:01:37 -0400
Subject: Women

>P.S.  Gentlemen, if you would just explain to your wives the concept of 
>"tongue-in-cheek", I would appreciate it.

WHOSE tongue in WHOSE cheek?

Hey, you been hangin' out with some guy named "Drac"? :)

                                Allen


------------------------------

From: Ed Dowgiallo <edowgial@prolog.net>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 10:03:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

Tossing my 2 cents into the discussion below, what prevents someone from
pulling up with a large number of very, very small ships (20tons?) and 
just turning a bunch of space marines loose on the surface to take it by 
ground action?

It's been interesting to see all the responses to my original posting. 
You have all given me a lot of good ideas. A lot of the background 
mentioned is from books that I do not possess. I'm doing my best to 
expand my Traveller library.

Going back to a previous posting, how many go with the idea that a naval 
base represents a large collection of small installations whose primary 
purpose is logistics?

Ed

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>
>> Consider the problems with trying to attack a base that is built into a
>> nickel iron asteroid 20 km in diameter. The vital installations are in
>> there *somewhere*, but where? The locations would be classified, and
>> the transit tunnels/corridors would be laid out with an eye to making
>> it hard to figure out where things were in relation to each other.
>>
>
> Very true.  Consider the above carefully...now add 2-4 deep meson sites
> opening up from behind meson screens synced to their fire patterns.
> Pretty grim.

Of course the attacker's first priority is scrubbing the sensors off
the surface. After they do that, it's not that hard to make any
internal sensors (neutrino sensors? Mass detectors?) relatively
worthless.

The one *big* vulnerability such an installation has is that being
purely military, nobody is going to get upset at you using *nasty*
weapons to crack it.

Like relativistic rocks... :-)

- - --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 10:30:52 -0400
Subject: My Year 0 Campaign

I will put up my hand and say that I am running a Year 0 campaign. In fact,
I'm running it tonight. I have the feeling that I will shortly be losing a
player though; she finds science-fiction RPG's boring EXCEPT for Star Wars.
The others seem to want to stick with Traveller, although about half of them
prefer the Reformation Coalition setting. So, I'll be running a T4 version
of my TNE campaign AS WELL AS
Year 0. I have really interesting characters in the Year 0 game, and I'd
hate to lose it.
        In my campaign, the characters joined the Scouts, who offered to buy
their ship when they were about to lose it to the bank, and to give it to
them at the end of their four-year hitch. Their job is to explore all those
unexplored worlds in the Core Subsector. (I am accepting the IG assertion
that the Imperium consists of about 20 worlds in Year 0. I think it was DGP
that said it was a whole sector-I'd have to check the library data from CT
on that. Well, now it ISN'T a whole sector. That's better for my campaign
anyway.) So far they've been spending most of their time in skirmishes with
the Pirates of the New Dawn.
        I obviously will find it somewhat easier to expand on the setting
once First Survey and Mileau 0 are out. But I don't feel like waiting that
long to run my game.
                                        Allen

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #490
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Traveller-digest           Friday, 4 October 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 491

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller gender issues (long)
         2. RPG acceptance in CANADA
         3. Re: Playing Female Characters 
         4. Pocket Empire
         5. RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.    
         6. Re: Anyone in California have hardbound?
         7. Re: Any one in California ....
         8. Re: The Archaean Thesis
         9. Re: Traveller gender issues (long)
        10. Re: I've been thinking about novels again.
        11. Re: I've been thinking about novels again.
        12. Re: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no. 	  
        13. Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign
        14. re: T4 Book 2 ?  Need campaign help...
        15. RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.    
        16. Re: Errors in T4
        17. New T4 Career

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 10:12:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller gender issues (long)

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Thanasis Kinias wrote:
> 2.  Cross-gender RPing I have observed was pretty bad.  Women playing men
> tended to play stereotypical men, scratching, belching, bull-headed, etc.
> Men playing women were worse, tending to act like drag queens and wanting
> to sleep with _every_ man that came along.  Because of this, I have a
> blanket prohibition against playing a character of another gender in my
> games, unless I feel the player is exceptional.

  This mirrors my experiences. There is a local GM that flat out denies
cross gender characters. He claims "the only good cross gender role
playing I've seen is by homosexuals". I feel that's excessive, but I admit
the stats aren't encouraging...

> 4.  A potentially-dangerous topic is character stats for female humans.
> No system I have played realistically portrays the physiological
> differences between men and women.  This is, I believe, due to a desire
> not to depict women as inferior.  However, women's lack of the physical
> strength of men (in general) is obvious and should ideally be modelled.
> In Rolemaster I devised a house rule that women would be penalised in
> strength and would get bonuses in constitution and empathy.  I haven't
> settled on a system for Trav yet.  Any suggestions, flames, comments?

  I agree, but I think it's better that we step back and let individual
refs sort this out than try to establish a fair comparison entrenched in
the gaming system (and possibly attract a class-action suit for
discrimination).

  FWIW, Traveller has always been a skill-based (as opposed to an
attribute based) game anyways. Even TNE, which bases skill assets on
attributes, favours skills over attributes. This pretty much makes it a
non-issue; most characters won't be anywhere near racial maximums anyways 
(which is primarily where differences would ultimately show up).

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:58:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RPG acceptance in CANADA

Like "Cdr Hold'em" I can't speak for all of Canada, but it is seen as
somewhat wierd (if not "evil" or sinful" - I'm from a fundamentalist
family, and I'm lucky enough to have understanding parents; but many
friends I know got a lot of heat when they were younger)

Actually, I think RPGing has come a long way everywhere - here, we're
starting to see a marketing explosion. In a city of 80,000, we now have
three shops that sell gaming stuff, plus one that sells used stuff 
(excluding mass-market drivel sold at WalMart type stores) - up from one
store five years ago.

I still don't see many females, though. Out of two gaming clubs, I only
know _one_ woman that games regularly. At the convention last weekend,
there were maybe ten women in the whole crowd (most were from out of town)
and two were GMs! ;)

In my experience, *most* role players are young men with some kind of
social stigma, be it a single parent home or a "nerdy" four-eyes image.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Traveller stuff for sale/trade.
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

"Oh yeah, one last thing. If I say `bail out' or `eject', and you ask 
`what?', you'll be talking to yourself." - Maj. Court Banister (Steel Tiger)


------------------------------

From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 10:15:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Playing Female Characters 

Our group has always had at least a couple of strong female players,
and long had a male player who often played female characters.
Also, the GM likes to have a "mascot," his own PC so to speak, and 
this has always been female.  (The GM's female characters all tend 
to resemble Emma Peel from the "Avengers," being athletic and lethal.)

Romances involving the PCs tend to happen off stage.  (Since we 
use time-travel a lot, one PC had twenty years of marriage and 
a child in ten minutes...)

I can't say I've noticed any obvious, inadvertent hormone-driven 
roleplaying or stereotypes, but we're a pretty old bunch (median 
age well over 30, and as for my own age...) which makes for more 
observation and less hormone.

Earl Wajenberg


------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 96 10:29:29 -0400
Subject: Pocket Empire

Thanasis Kinias wrote:

>In my (New Era) pocket empire, the different worlds
>treat this differently.  One world, Avsten, is a very "advanced" in this
>regard, and asserts absolute equality between the sexes.  Another, Savria,
>has lived with a Droyne population for millenia, and has adopted a similar
>caste system of alpha (breeding) males, beta (non-breeding) males, and
>females, and rigidly assigns roles to each. 

Sounds pretty interesting, any chance of posting some write ups of
these worlds and/or your pocket empire to the list.


Lewis Roberts
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Wanted: One Cool Sig
lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 07:30:22 -0800
Subject: RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.    

On  4 Oct 96 at 6:19, Suzette C. Dollar spewed:

> Boyd,
> 
> You caught me at 6:15am, bleary eyed and no caffiene yet,,,,, 
> Needless to say, I'm awake now. And I have only one thing to say:
> 
> I don't need Stu to explain *anything* to me!
> 
> :-P

Naw...just make sure you tell her the story real slow, so she 
understands...  

:-)

Stu "looking for somewhere to hide" Dollar
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 07:30:22 -0800
Subject: Re: Anyone in California have hardbound?

On  4 Oct 96 at 6:05, Matthew Mactyre spewed:

> Really though, I would give Imperium Games a call.  I live in
> Nevada, and received my copy about a week ago.
> 

I live in Phoenix, AZ, and received mine on Monday...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 07:26:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Any one in California ....

Although I did not order a hardback I have already recieved a softback copy.  

Brad Urwiller (wandering the Desert)
ravyn@ptw.com


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 06:46:37 PST
Subject: Re: The Archaean Thesis

In mail you write:

> Rob Prior writes:
>
>  " No one knows where humaniti originated, just that we are
>    widespread.  (After all, Earth is a ways from the Imperium in
>    Milieu 0.)  Thus, I will have many factions, each supporting a
>    different homeworld."

> But Earth has a decent fossil record and apes and loads of other organisms 
> all with similar anatomies and genetic codes.  All this strongly suggests 
> a human origin on Earth.  To muddy the waters, shouldn't you supply 
> similar evidence on the other candidate homeworlds?

You aren't looking at this correctly. Since none of the other worlds
have this, their sciences are going to have very weak evolutionary
theories if they have any at all. After all, if humans, and perhaps a
few food animals and plants (which will be *very* widespread by the
time science is invented) don't fit in with the rest of the native
organisms, that's going to make the jump from genetics (the monk in the
garden with the bean plants) to evolution a lot harder.

We've got a fossil record, so *we* would be suspicious of candidates
that didn't. They don't and quite likely won't notice that lack until
several generations of scientists get beaten over the head with the
idea. 

Actually, a much better argument than fossils is in DNA. There is a
continous spectrum of DNA differences between species, and that enables
us to make pretty good guesses as to when they had a common ancestor.
This is finally getting pretty much accepted (a lot of folks were
unhappy about both how closely related we are to chimps & gorillas, and
how recently we had common ancestors).

On a planet with transported life forms, you'd have a much different
situation. The natives would have the continous spectrum of differences
and the transplants would stick out.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 07:05:12 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller gender issues (long)

In mail you write:

> 4.  A potentially-dangerous topic is character stats for female humans.
> No system I have played realistically portrays the physiological
> differences between men and women.  This is, I believe, due to a desire
> not to depict women as inferior.  However, women's lack of the physical
> strength of men (in general) is obvious and should ideally be modelled.
> In Rolemaster I devised a house rule that women would be penalised in
> strength and would get bonuses in constitution and empathy.  I haven't
> settled on a system for Trav yet.  Any suggestions, flames, comments?

Note: all comments below are talking about group *averages*, thus a
randomly chosen member of a group that "isn't as good" at something may
actually be *better* at it than a randomly chosen member of the group
that is "good" at it. EG, men are stronger than women, but if your
random selections turn out to be the world champ women's body builder,
and Joe Average, then the reverse is true OF THOSE TWO PERSONS.

Last I heard, women make up for the lack of strength by having more
stamina/endurance, a much higher "constitution" and a *very much*
higher pain tolerance.

Among other things, it has been speculated that given equal
opportunities/training women would make better fighter pilots than men,
as their small size combined with a higher G tolerance adds up to a
definite plus factor.

So we might just have the Imperial Navy recruiter looking over a guy
and looking really dubious about his desire to enter flight school. :-)
"Even if you manage to meet the standards, most of any unit you get
stationed with will be women. And they tend to make it a little 'rough'
on men who try to 'break in' to what they see as a woman's job."

(Role playing the hazing the guy would get would be lots of fun. Pity
we don't role play character generation)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 07:18:02 PST
Subject: Re: I've been thinking about novels again.

In mail you write:

> My list of 10 literary sources for Traveller background.
>
> 1) _Mote in God's Eye_, by Jerry Pournelle.  It is the source of the
> Langston Field (aka Black Globe), after all.
>
> 2) The John Christian Falkenberg series, by Jerry Pournelle (and the S.M.
> Stirling stuff in the same timeline)

Both of the above are the *same* timeline. You have the Codominiun,
then after Terra tries to commit nuclear suicide, the Fleet establishes
the Empire, with it's capital on Sparta. The Empire lasts a century or
two and falls apart in the wake of the war with the Sauron Supermen.
Eventually a second Empire starts up. "Mote in God's Eye" is from the
Second Empire period. So is "King David's Spaceship" (and the shorter
version "A Spaceship for the King"). 

BTW, that last story/stories is worth checking out to see how an Empire
might treat a lower tech world being re-contacted, and what sort of
regulations there might be about technology transfer (as well as ways
around them).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 07:24:43 PST
Subject: Re: I've been thinking about novels again.

In mail you write:

> How about John Brunner's early stories?

The *entire* "series" of stories about the ZRPs (Zarathrustran Refugee
Planets) is *perfect* for Traveller. In fact, it's not that hard to
modify the base storyline to make it work.

The basic idea is that a planet that's been colonized for some time
(centuries?) is discovered to have a sun that's going to go Nova
*soon*, and the rush to get refugees off-planet by any means available,
*especially* in the last hours after the sun has already started to get
dangerous, led to a lot of overcrowded and ill-equipped ships getting
lost. 

The ships were overcrowded, often obsolete, and they were launching in
a direct path from the nightside of the planet (dayside was dead!) and
having to go FTL while still protected by the planet's shadow.

In Traveller terms, this works great. It means that the last ships off
had no choice but to jump *before* reaching the 100 diameter limit.
Sure, outside 10 diameters you aren't *too* likely to misjump, if the
drive is in tip-top condition. But these ships were whatever could be
gotten there and carry people and life support for a jump out. So the
odds of misjump go way up, especially as captains are going to have to
balance the risk of getting too close to the edge of the shadow cone,
and misjumping. Close in, no danger from the edge, lots of danger from
misjump, farther out, less danger of misjump, but more danger of
getting fried.

In any case, this leads to lots of planets involuntarily colonized by
these misjumped ships. Mostly on planets nobody would have picked,
given a choice, and with no proper gear except what they can salvage
from the ships.

Oh yeah, since we *now* know that a normal star can't go nova, it'd
have to be something else. Say, discovering that the star is an
irregular variable and is starting to head towards a peak that is
lethal. 


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 08:01:41 -0800
Subject: Re: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no. 	  

On  3 Oct 96 at 11:55, Rich Ostorero spewed:

> serious about reaching for the stars. The female of our species has
> a lot more to offer the entire race; it's _past_ time for humanity
> to realize that to deny women their place in the human future is the
> worst kind of racial stupidity.

Actually, more a case of sexist stupidity...

The rest of your rant is right, dead on...

I have always admired Traveller's stance regarding female and male 
characters being equal in all manners...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 08:01:41 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign

On  4 Oct 96 at 9:57, Cmdr Hold'Em spewed:

> Boyd Schneider wrote:
> > 
> > Chances are, IG is probably pretty sore about the errors they let
> > slip by.  I doubt they will do so again.  Time will tell.

First of all, they'd have to be insensitive louts to not be kicking 
themselves over a few of the errors.  I'm sure Whitman and co, have 
been kicking themselves over the jump drive table, if nothing else... 
 "HOW THE *&^% DID WE FORGET THE *&^% JUMP TABLE?"
Most people WANT to turn out a quality product, and therefore are 
going to be quite concerned over their mistakes, especially those 
that are visible to the public.  Hard to imagine IG wanting to ignore 
the problem...

> 
> Never stopped GDW
> 

I hate to say it, but errata are part and parcel with book 
publishing.  Go back and take a look at your favorite novel, 
particularly if its a first printing/first edition.  I recently 
bought Executive Orders in hardcover, and since T4 had recently come 
out with a bunch of grammatical errors, I decided to pay closer 
attention to it with this book...  There were quite a few errors that 
slipped past Clancy, his editor, AND the publisher...most were simple 
misspellings, typos, or grammatical errors, but there was part of a paragraph 
that was actually reprinted within the same paragraph in 1 instance, 
as well as a missing participle in a particular sentence which 
changed its whole meaning...  

Since you read these sort of things in context, a lot of these things 
GENERALLY go unnoticed in reading in a novel.  In a more technical 
work such as a textbook, manual, or rules book for an RPG, these things 
are a little more easily noticed...  

When I was in college, I'd seen textbooks with missing and misnumbered 
tables in the past...and these are guys with PhD's  for heavens 
sakes....  Its hardly an exclusive problem with GDW, IG or RPG publishers 
in general...  If a company as huge and monolithic as Random House 
can't eliminate the errors from a best seller, its hard to imagine 
the 1 guy who does it part time for IG to walk on water...and be able 
to with a 1st edition.  The number of serious errors are minimal, and 
on the whole, it does a good job.  The good news is that the 2nd 
edition should be just about bug free...

Methinks that you should take into account the fact that they are 
being forthright about a lot of the mistakes, and cut them a little 
slack...  

As for GDW, MT was a box o' bugs, and I won't dispute that.  The 
editing for CT & TNE were loads better, so apparently GDW learned 
their lesson from MT and paid more attention to it with TNE...

Remember though, that probably the best selling RPG of all time, 
TSR's 1st Edition AD&D was so poorly organized, edited, and written 
that it convinced me that Gygax couldn't write his way out of a paper 
bag...so by most accounts I thought GDW did a good job at the time...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 08:14:22 -0800
Subject: re: T4 Book 2 ?  Need campaign help...

On  3 Oct 96 at 15:13, Bruce Alan Macintosh spewed:

> I just wanted to highlight this; IMHO this is probably the single
> worst problem with T4 - there is far too little background and
> adventure info to let people run a campaign with it out of the box.
> TNE, for all its flaws, did better - there's more information on the
> auxilliary settings like the Regency in TNE than on Milleu 0 in T4.
> (*and* you could still use the old maps in TNE.)

Well, sometimes the worst thing that can happen in life is to get 
exactly what you wish for...  Back when T4 was still a conceptual 
project there were a lot of people on this list (including yours 
truly) who expressed a desire for a rulebook that was as specifically 
divorced from the "official" campaign setting as possible.  Since T4 is 
eventually supposed to have multiple campaign settings, its going to 
have to be divorced from the setting a lot, since there's supposed to be 
more than 1...

As for TNE, I really didn't appreciate the fact that the setting was 
that enmeshed with the rules.  Hell, the setting was in the middle of 
character creation where the players had total access to all of it.  
Along with the House rules system, which I didn't like, this was my 
biggest pet peeve with TNE...

I prefer it this way, but I do admit that I WON'T be running a T4 
campaign until First Survey & the Milieu 0 Sourcebooks come out.  I'm 
currently writing a CT campaign using the cleaned up MT rules, as I 
always have.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 08:37:13 +0000
Subject: RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.    

> Naw...just make sure you tell her the story real slow, so she 
> understands...  
> 
> Stu "looking for somewhere to hide" Dollar

(Hands on hips, foot tapping)

*This* coming from the man that if it doesn't have anything to do 
with sex, sports or Traveller (not necessarily in that order) you may 
as well not bother?

Dear, we'll finish this discussion *privately* at home tonight!
(notice he waits til I'm safely at work!)

Suz

p.s. don't forget to set the VCR for Power Rangers...  that's the one 
with the cute blonde in the skin tight pink outfit.... we're taping 
it for our oldest son Alex.... you know the larger of the two 
creatures that runs around the house screaming and was a direct 
result of our having SEX!  Yeah, that one.  Very good, Stu!

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 11:14:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Errors in T4

>>I don't want to be perceived as a nay-sayer, but I really have doubts about
>>the ability of any company to survive with continual errors like the ones in
>>T4.  They may not seem major to many of you, but I am not a real experienced
>>ref/player, and it is difficult to understand much of the stuff without the
>>years of CT experience.  I don't advocate a more complex system like TNE,
>>but I do want a system that I can understand.
>
>The problem here is assuming that just because the rulebook was riddled with
>errors,
>their other publications will be as well.

Uh, yeah, well, that's the problem I run into when I try to pretend I am
coherent and alert enough to write an intellectual reply at 1:00 in the
morning!!! :)  And to make it worse, I had just finished doing the bills. :(

> STARSHIPS seems to be a bit behind
>schedule. HOPEFULLY this is because they are taking the time to thoroughly
>proofread it and make sure it is as error-free as humanly possible. They
>don't have to rush with it; none of us would really complain if it came out
>a little late, but was of higher quality in the editing department.

Yes, I agree this seems to be a commonly shared sentiment here, and I hope
that IG is listening to it and will do their dead-level best to produce
error free supplements in the future.  Also, I hope that their dead-level
best is good enough.

>        Imperium Games seems to listen to their customers, particularly the
>ones here.

Well, I hope you are right, but the response to the trouble some folks had
with the Core Sector Map in the T4 book doesn't make me happy.  Don't get me
wrong, until IG gets to the TNE universe, there is little 'canon' of mine
that they can invalidate.  My trouble is that their reply to this problem
sounded to me like they were saying, "Hey, this is the way we did it, if you
don't like that tough!  It's our game and we will change what we ant to
change."  I know they didn't use those words, but that was the impression I
got.  That is not a healthy attitude in a company trying to find new
customers and win over old ones.

> A major theme I've been seeing on the Net is annoyance and
>dissapointment with the editing of the rulebook. Assuming that they want to
>make money, they'll correct this problem. As much as I love Traveller, I
>WILL give up on it if it turns into another MegaTraveller fiasco as far as
>errata goes. (Keep in mind it took MT a NUMBER of printings to get rid of
>the errors. T4 has had only one so far. let's cu them some slack-for now.)

My only point to this is that in all of the novels and text books I have
read, I have found VERY FEW errors.  This in contrast with a rushed,
slap-together job on the T4 main book?  I don't think asking for a 95+%
error free book is out of the ordinary.  Granted, I have no idea what the
RPG industry as a whole is like, but I know that I do not like error plagued
material.

Please do not misunderstand this post.  I DO NOT WANT TO SEE TRAVELLER
DIE!!!!  What I do want is for T4 to be the absolutely best Traveller
incarnation ever.  Without error free products, I don't think IG (or
Traveller, unfortunately) will last long, and I doubt Traveller will survive
the demise of another company.

In order to show my support, I am now offering my help to IG.  I will gladly
proof anything they want me to proof.   Ken, Mark, anyone at IG, I am here
and willing to help.  I will do my part to provide error free, clear, and
well explained Traveller stuff.


Paul  {tiger}                       http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

   Desiring the best Traveller ever!


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 12:54:10 -0400
Subject: New T4 Career

Here'a new career that should provide a lot of fun for espionage-type
missions.  I've also placed this in HTML format on my homepage:

  http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss

Enjoy!  Feedback welcomed.

- -------------

Secret Agent

Although somewhat similar to Agents (T4, pg 32), Secret Agents are
especially trained to work covertly and to accomplish their mission without
ever being detected.  And they always work alone.  Secret Agents are field
operatives and are never assigned to desk jobs or managerial positions
(they often transfer to the Agent career if they tire of field work).  If a
Secret Agent is caught, they can expect emprisonment, torture, or
prosecution; most employers will then deny all knowledge of their existance.

Typically they will be hired by secret government agencies, shady
megacorporations, or illicit organizations.

Routine Tasks:  spy on local organizations; infiltrate enemy groups; steal
trade secrets; conduct terrorist activities; neutralize undesirable
opponents; kidnapping; work as a double-agent.

Enlistment:   4-  DM +1 if DEX 9+  DM +2 if INT 9+
Injury:       6-  DM +1 if STR 8+  DM +1 per level of Streetwise (3 max)
Commission:   None
Promotion:    6-  DM +1 if EDU 7+
Continuance:  7-

1.  Physical

    1. +1 STR
    2. +1 DEX
    3. +1 DEX
    4. Brawling
    5. Blade Combat
    6. Melee Combat

2.  Mental

    1. +1 INT
    2. Perception
    3. Perception
    4. Camouflauge
    5. Camouflauge
    6. Disguise

3.  Educational

    1. Poison (Alternate: Chemistry)
    2. Poison (Alternate: Chemistry)
    3. Demolitions
    4. Demolitions
    5. Surveillance (Alternate: Sensors or Recon)
    6. Surveillance (Alternate: Sensors or Recon)

4.  Social

    1. Acting
    2. Language
    3. Streetwise
    4. Streetwise
    5. Charisma (Cluster)
    6. Charisma (Cluster)

5.  Career

    1. Blade Combat
    2. Gun Combat
    3. Pistol
    4. Clandestine (Cluster)
    5. Clandestine (Cluster)
    6. Clandestine (Cluster)

6.  Background

    1. Throwing
    2. Robotics
    3. Computer
    4. Computer
    5. Pilot
    6. First Aid

Table of Ranks
E1  Agent in Training
E2  Associate Agent
E3  Special Agent, 3rd Class
E4  Special Agent, 2nd Class
E5  Special Agent, 1st Class
E6  Mission Specialist

Rank and Service Skills
All Surveillance
E3  Streetwise
E6  Language

Skill Eligibility
1 per year
1 per promotion

Mustering Out Tables
1d6    Cash
1     5,000
2    10,000
3    15,000
4    25,000
5    50,000
6   100,000

1d6  Benefits
1    High Passge
2    High Passage
3    Weapon
4    Weapon
5    Disguise Kit
6    Surveillance Kit


New Skills 

Poison (DEX or EDU):  The character has made an extensive study of organic
and synthetic chemicals which adversely affect other individuals in a
variety of manners from paralysis to death.  This skill includes the
ability to manufacture the poison and an antidote as well as analyze and
identify various poisons.  The character is trained in a variety of methods
in which to detect and to administer poisons.  Poison allows a character to
buy and sell on the black market from a favorable position.  

Surveillance (INT):  The character is trained to use a variety of methods
to observe other individuals without being detected.  Surveillance can be
conducted directly in person or remotely through a variety of electronic
sensors.  The character is trained to hide sensors in strategic locations,
to set up systems to receive input from the sensors, and to interpret that
data accurately.  This skill also allows the character to avoid being
detected by other surveillance systems or to confuse them.


  James Garriss          |  Counter Genocide
  jpg@langley.mitre.org  |  A Traveller Story in Progress
                         |  http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #491
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Traveller-digest           Friday, 4 October 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 492

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Trade Schools
         2. Naval Bases
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #487
         4. T4 Errors
         5. Re: New Gamers
         6. RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.    
         7. Stu's in trouble!!
         8. Sacred Canons and the Miller Conspiracy
         9. RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.
        10. RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.
        11. Re: The Archaean Thesis
        12. Yet another new character career : The journalist
        13. RED ZONE: An adventure
        14. RE: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues (Long)
        15. RE: The Archaean Thesis
        16. RE: The Archaean Thesis
        17. RE: T4 Book 2 ?  Need campaign help...
        18. RE: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign
        19. Female gaming in french canada
        20. Don't Break the City
        21. Re: [T96#485] Time Travel
        22. Planetary/System Defense

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 04 Oct 1996 12:53:00 GMT
Subject: Re: Trade Schools

>Part of the Idea for the +1 edu was to allow characters to go to Trade 
>schools to gain the minimal edu required for Collages.

Ah.  Then the answer is obvious.  Let them take a +1 edu instead of one
skill, but only up to Education 6 (or whatever you need for college - don't
have my books here right now).  

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 96 18:04 BST-1
Subject: Naval Bases

What are they like? Depends on where they are. Bases on the frontier 
will have better defences, whereas those in safe areas will have less. 
Size will depend on the population of the system and/or the reason for 
the base. The local Naval Academy may be based there.

A typical base might be:

1MT orbital station 
Large ground base adjacent to the main Downport
Many civilian workers
Extensive repair facilities
Outposts throughout system (research, training, sensors)
Defences include: Marine battalion, several squadrons of heavy fighters 
& SDBs, missiles, meson guns (including planetary sites), plus whatever 
ships are there at the time  (say, a couple of CruRons).

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 04 Oct 1996 13:02:11 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #487

>Polytechnic are only in the UK as far as I am aware, and given that T4 is 
>about simplyfying Traveller, I dont think having 2 careers of focused 
>Technical schools (trade,polytechnic) is the way to go IMHO.

Canada has polytechnics too (not many, I'll admit).

T4 may be about simplifying Traveller, but then why are you adding more
options to it? ;-)

There's nothing wrong with more optional rules, as long as they (a) don't
shift play balance, (b) are dead-end options (ie. other optional rules don't
build on them), and (c) are consistent with the main rules in both flavour
and effect.

Adding another career is a great example of a good optional rule, as long as
that career isn't unduly advantaged.  IRIS (from MegaTraveller) was a good
example of what _not_ to do:  a career that gave characters many more skills
than all other careers.  The Skimmer career (also from MT) is a good example:
the same number of skills as a Belter, but different skills (more suited to a
gas giant miner).

This weekend I hope to convert all my MegaTraveller optional careers to T4
and post them to the Web.  

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 12:30:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: T4 Errors

Hi,

All the recent discussion over whether IG is or is not concerned with the 
errors in T4 has prompted me to write this message.

I know for a fact that IG is very concerned about it.  I know this 
because I (and, presumably, a number of others) have been asked to edit 
a copy of T4 and send it to IG (who will then send a new copy 
of T4 in return).  My voluminous notations, along with those of the 
other people asked to do such editing, will be used in order to produce 
"version 1.1" of T4 that will be as close to error-free as is humanly 
possible.

I've been quiet on TML lately because I've been so involved with editing 
T4.  :)  I plan on having it done tonight, and mailing it to them tomorrow 
(Saturday) morning.

Each of us who are doing this editing probably missed a few items, but 
together we should have it all covered.  

Oh, and no, I don't have any idea when a new edition of T4 would be out. :( 
Presumably sometime next year - perhaps first quarter.  I really don't know.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 04 Oct 1996 13:21:29 GMT
Subject: Re: New Gamers

>This is a completely different generation whose imagination seems to
>have been squashed by "fast food" computer games, etc., who _expect_ to be
>given things on a plate (oven? what's that - oh, it's ok, I've found the
>microwave instructions), and who rarely bother to pick up a book (fiction or
>otherwise) unless it's mostly pictures. Sorry to sound cynical, but
>pregenerated background, adventures, etc. is a _must_ to attract new blood.

I hate to say it, but I agree with Andy on this one.  Most of the gamers at
my school exist on only prepackaged stuff.  There are some that delight in
writing adventures, but most have trouble doing so.  The English Head and I
are thinking of starting a club/seminar series on writing adventures,
developing background, etc.  (Hey, if we can 'trick' them into learning
writing and science because they like gaming, we'll do it!)

I've had kids tell me that I know nothing about gaming because I haven't
played/seen their fav. game.  They're usually astounded when I pull out all
the stuff I've had published; then I drop a few names of other
authors/publishers that I've met/talked to...  Takes them down a few notches!

------------------------------

From: "Richard L. Sezov"  <SEZOVR@md.AHP.COM>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 12:25:39 -0400
Subject: RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.    

> Naw...just make sure you tell her the story real slow, so she  >
understands...   >  > Stu "looking for somewhere to hide" Dollar

>(Hands on hips, foot tapping)

>*This* coming from the man that if it doesn't have anything to do  with
>sex, sports or Traveller (not necessarily in that order) you may  as well
>not bother?

>Dear, we'll finish this discussion *privately* at home tonight!
>(notice he waits til I'm safely at work!)

Hoo, boy. Hope it's not too cold out in the dog house tonight, Stu.

Rich Sezov, Technical Analyst, x2259
Whitehall-Robins Healthcare
Work: sezovr@md.ahp.com  Home: sezovr@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~sezovr



------------------------------

From: mchildre@pcshs.com
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 11:08:19 -0700
Subject: Stu's in trouble!!

Rich Sezov wrote:

>Hoo, boy. Hope it's not too cold out in the dog house tonight, Stu.

He's in Arizona.  Of course it wont be cold! <g>

Matt (Also in Arizona)




------------------------------

From: Will Richards <richarwt@jtasc.acom.mil>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 14:29:41 -0400
Subject: Sacred Canons and the Miller Conspiracy

An example of attempting to protect a sacred "CANON",
and from a Miller at that!   ;)

>From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
>Date: 04 Oct 96 08:53:42 EDT
>Subject: Re: 
>
>- --- Someone Yanking the Golden Eject Cords wrote:
>unsubscribe traveller-digest "Clint Fishback" <beowulfe@mindspring.com>
>
>- --- end of quoted material ---
>BEOWULF? he uses the beloved BEOWULF? has this man no shame? no fear of the
>mighty Far Future Legal Team? Doesn't he realize that invoking the revered name
>of our favourite Free Trader is heresy?
>Call out the Torturers!!!



------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 13:42:29 -0500
Subject: RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.

>From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@goodnet.com>
>Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 08:37:13 +0000
>Subject: RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.    
>
>> Naw...just make sure you tell her the story real slow, so she 
>> understands...  
>> 
>> Stu "looking for somewhere to hide" Dollar
>
>(Hands on hips, foot tapping)
>
>*This* coming from the man that if it doesn't have anything to do 
>with sex, sports or Traveller (not necessarily in that order) you may 
>as well not bother?

Hey Stu, didn't she forget Beer?  :)


>Dear, we'll finish this discussion *privately* at home tonight!
>(notice he waits til I'm safely at work!)

well, as my mother-in-law has often said about people we talk about, "Oh to
be a fly on that wall."  :)


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 13:42:27 -0500
Subject: RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.

>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
>Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 07:30:22 -0800
>Subject: RE: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.    
>
>On  4 Oct 96 at 6:19, Suzette C. Dollar spewed:
>
>> Boyd,
>> 
>> You caught me at 6:15am, bleary eyed and no caffiene yet,,,,, 
>> Needless to say, I'm awake now. And I have only one thing to say:
>> 
>> I don't need Stu to explain *anything* to me!
>> 
>> :-P
>
>Naw...just make sure you tell her the story real slow, so she 
>understands...  
>
>:-)

Boy, I'm glad I'm not you Stu!  Let's just say it is a good thing for you
that Suz is not really her character Galina.

>Stu "looking for somewhere to hide" Dollar

You ought to be!


------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 11:49:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: The Archaean Thesis

     People have been consistently referring to "Signal GK" as the CT
adventure that gave away the Secret of the Ancients.  It didn't bother me
at first since I figured it was just a memory slip, but now that it's been
repeatd several times, I must point out that the adventure that gave away 
the secret of the Ancients was in fact "Adventure 12: Secret of the 
Ancients."  "Signal GK" (Adv 13) was a Solomani Rim political intrigue
adventure that happened to mention a silicon-based life-form on (IIRC)
Cymbelline, that was later used as a partial justification for Virus.
     As I said before, I wasn't really bothered by this (apparent) error
until it was repeated a few times.  I'm not trying to be overly-persnickety.

Acting an awful lot like a Traveller Historian for someone who didn't
"discover" Traveller until MT in 1987,

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: galliand@juno.com
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 14:59:34 EDT
Subject: Yet another new character career : The journalist

Hi.  I'm usually a lurker, so this is my first time providing something
substantive here.  I've developed a new career for the journalist.  I
never saw one in any of the other version (unless I just completely
blocked it out) and thought it would be quite interesting.  You can get a
copy of it from 

http://members.aol.com/sgalli5794/traveller/careers/Reporter.html

Sorry, but it is in a table format.  I wanted it to mirror that of the
form in the book as close as possible.  I'll try to post a copy later
here to the list.

I hope you find it useful.

Scott Galliand

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 15:22:13 -0400
Subject: RED ZONE: An adventure

        IN an effort to get this list off of subjects like the role of women
in gaming and back onto more relevant subjects like relativistic rocks, I
submit for your approval the following adventure idea, which is based on
some of the pictures in the T4 rulebook. it shouldn't be too tough to figure
out which ones...

RED ZONE   A Traveller Adventure by Allen Shock

        The characters meet a retired Imperial Scout named Yusak
Anguukiimra, with an interesting story to tell (don't they all?). He shows
the characters a map of the Core Subsector and points to coordinate 0406. He
says that while the Imperium shows no world located there, the TAS has
designated this area a Red Zone. He says this is because there IS a world
there, and the Imperium has interdicted it. He knew someone who found an old
spacer's diary, and he and his crew located this world. However, he never
made it back; his ship was found lifeless and floating, except for one
ancient relic, a crystalline sphere mounted on a iridium base. When the
derelict's crew began appearing in phantom form, the would-be salvagers
left, taking only the diary they found in one of the cabins. Yusak beleives
there is valuable treasure on that world. He offers the characters cr150,000
to take him there, and will split equally any profits made on items which
are brought back. If the characters agree, he will want to leave as soon as
possible. Any attempt to locate any information on this so-called planet
will meet with failure.
        When their ship comes out of jumpspace, the characters will find
that there is indeed a planetary system in that region. As they approach the
mainworld, however, have the sensors operator make a Staggering sensors
roll. If they fail, the ship will be hit by a powerful laser (stats 3-3-1-0)
at Very Short range. It can now be determined that it was fired from one of
a number of satellites ringing the world (about 8 in all). If the characters
blow up the satellite, they can bring it aboard. 
Rather than being a relic, it clearly bears the insignia of the Imperium.
The laser has caused damage to the ship's contragrav lifters; unless the
ship is of airframe design, the world's thin atmosphere is not sufficient to
allow the ship to land. if the character's ship does not come equipped with
a launch or other small craft, don't trash their contragrav. Also, a sensor
scan of the planet picks up a strange, regular electromagnetic pulse from
the planet surface.
        The characters set down in a heavy jungle region about three
kilometers from the source of the EMP pulse. They move through the jungle
and find themselves eventually looking at a large step pyramid similar to
those constructed by the Aztecs of ancient Terra, but five times as large.
It is surrounded by an electirifed fence, and armed men wearing the uniform
of the Imperial Army patrol it's perimeter.
        If the PC's try to break in, they may be captured. If so, they will
be taken into the pyramid and marched to a holding cell. They will walk
directly past a strange portal within which is a sight familiar to all
spacers; the coruscating pattern of Jump Space. At this point, the Scout
turns on his captors, catching them by surprise. If the characters follow
suit, they can overcome their less than alert guards and gain their weapons.
The Scout then jumps INTO the portal. With soldiers now closing in on them,
what will the characters do? Do they follow their employer into the portal?
        If the characters don't enter the portal, they will be recaptured
and taken to see Major Harland Anders. The Major will be MOST unhappy. He
will tell the characters that their actions will most likely land them in
prison. In the meantime, they will be forced to do menial labor for the Army
mission here. He will not tell the characters what that mission is. If the
Scout managed to escape and enter the portal, he will offer the characters a
chance for a measure of leniency; go into the portal and bring him back.
        Where deos the portal lead? A number of possibilities exist, as
chosen by the GM. Here are some:
        1.) The portal leads to the derelict ship, but it doesn't work quite
right. Anyone who uses it gets stuck halfway between our dimension and the
jumpspace one. Since time flows differently there, the crew of the derelict
ship are still alive, and they've found a portal to ANOTHER place where,
unknown to them, the Ancient who built these portals as an escape from the
Ancients War still lives...and will be VERY unhappy about receiving visitors...
        2.) The portal leads to a similar portal in another pyramid, but a
LONG way from this one; possibly on Terra, or Zhdant, or Victoria, or
someplace else. The natives of said worlds may react badly to strangers
suddenly appearing...
        3.) The portal leads to an underground base deep below the planet
surface.
This complex contains LOTS of high-tech (TL17+) stuff, and a strange alien
creature with large eyes and wings which appears to be in coldlseep
(actually in temporal stasis). It does bear some resemblance to Droyne, but
is about seven feet tall.
if anyone messes with the machinery, it will awaken. (If any of you remember
the adventure "Demon Dark" in CHALLENGE 58 by Michael R. Mikesh, you'll know
what this is...)

Have fun!
                        Allen


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 96 08:11:09 UT
Subject: RE: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues (Long)

Rich Ostorero said:

>That _is_ a problem; I'm forever teaching 'Trav 101' to newcomers. I usually 
>hand them 
>an Imperial Encyclopedia and try to answer their questions as best as I can.
>

I wish I could see a copy of it, I've heard lots about it but have never seen 
one...  nor anything else from that company... as far as I know.  Heard 
someone mention that it was same as the CT Library Data books, izzat true?

>In my Year 0 game, there are other pocket empires thinking the same thing >as 
the Syleans are thinking -- just like in the RC game I ran there was the 
>Solee with their Starburst-class CL as well as their relic Kinunirs -- all of 


But I thought the Kinuner wasn't produced until a few centuries later?

>I've got one small pocket empire set up in the trailing main of Core Sector 
- -- a >single 
>world (Ardis, a Tech 12 world with a charismatic dictatorship) has been 
hiring 
>privateers to raid Sylean shipping as a prelude to a campaign of conquest. 
>Look at where 
>the trailing naval bases are in IG's Core subsector; they are there to 
protect >the coreward segment of the main.

Wish I could join in, what's your 10-20?



------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 96 07:48:51 UT
Subject: RE: The Archaean Thesis

Cool man Glenn Grant said:

>The main bit of evidence the PCs had to figure out was a hollow asteroid, >a
>religious pilgrimage site and tourist trap known as the "Rock of Duriam",
>which had once been an Ancient starship. Some surfaces could be made >to

Oh wow, if you have any of that stuff on your PC, I sure would love to see 
some of it!  Would you consider a barter?   Quid Pro Quo.

					---Boyd




------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 96 20:01:39 UT
Subject: RE: The Archaean Thesis

That was my fault, Trent, I owned neither of the two adventure books and just 
typed it in as if i knew what I was talken about.  I guess thats why we need 
you "lawyers and scribes" on TML.

					---Boyd

- ----------
From: 	owner-traveller@NS.MPGN.COM on behalf of Trent Smith
Sent: 	Friday, October 04, 1996 1:49 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: The Archaean Thesis

     People have been consistently referring to "Signal GK" as the CT
adventure that gave away the Secret of the Ancients.  It didn't bother me
at first since I figured it was just a memory slip, but now that it's been
repeatd several times, I must point out that the adventure that gave away 
the secret of the Ancients was in fact "Adventure 12: Secret of the 
Ancients."  "Signal GK" (Adv 13) was a Solomani Rim political intrigue
adventure that happened to mention a silicon-based life-form on (IIRC)
Cymbelline, that was later used as a partial justification for Virus.
     As I said before, I wasn't really bothered by this (apparent) error
until it was repeated a few times.  I'm not trying to be overly-persnickety.

Acting an awful lot like a Traveller Historian for someone who didn't
"discover" Traveller until MT in 1987,

Trent Smith



------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 96 20:32:08 UT
Subject: RE: T4 Book 2 ?  Need campaign help...

Stuart L. Dollar said:
>I prefer it this way, but I do admit that I WON'T be running a T4 
>campaign until First Survey & the Milieu 0 Sourcebooks come out.  I'm 
>currently writing a CT campaign using the cleaned up MT rules, as I 
>always have.

As am I, but all this discussion about M-0 has really enhanced my current 
1100's campaign.  It is wonderful to really get a view of the history of the 
Imperium.  I especially appreciate the comments that the Imperium was 
*different* when it was smaller; ie. more involved with policing the 
individual citizen.  This reinforces the logic behind the relative freedom in 
the circa 1100 Imperium.  Keep the kewl stuff flowing, folks!  (and quit yer 
bitching about errata, inconsistancies, etc.  -- SHUT UP and PLAY!)     ;-)>

					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 96 20:40:45 UT
Subject: RE: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign

In a previous message, Stuart L. Dollar scolded Cmdr Hold'Em: 
>
>> Boyd Schneider wrote:
>> > 
>> > Chances are, IG is probably pretty sore about the errors they let
>> > slip by.  I doubt they will do so again.  Time will tell.
>> 
>> Never stopped GDW
>> 
>
>I hate to say it, but errata are part and parcel with book 
>publishing.  Go back and take a look at your favorite novel, 

<mega-snip-pahge>

Thanks Stu, you took the words right out of my fingers...  :-)>

				---Boyd


------------------------------

From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 16:54:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Female gaming in french canada

lO!
 Just thought I'd add my 2 cents (can) worth to this topic...
 
	here in Sherbrooke, there is no attittude AGAINST gaming,
really...  yes, it is seen as a fairly geeky thing to do, but
there's been a 'geeky is cool' trend in recent years here. :)
The only attitude against it is from peopel who think that gaming is
for kids, but generally they have never seen a real gaming session/.
 
Now as far as girls are concerned with the games, here we have the
additional hurdle of the games being in english and msot people not
being proefficient with english until their late teens, unless they
watch a lot of TV/read a lot of sci-fi. :) Anyways, most mid-teen
girls certainly won't go to the trouble of learning english just to
play a game. :)
 
In any case, I would say that there's 2 categories of female players
here; theater actors and hmm... "freaks".   I would say that the
majority of female players here are in fact women who started by
being interested in the dramatic arts.   The rest is mostly pariahs,
teenage girls who don't fit, etc etc.   
 
I'd say tehre's 1 female player for 8-10 male players though I could
be a little off, I haven't made a survey in eyars.

- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
	Independentist: My Canada excludes the federal bureaucracy :)
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 4 Oct 96 13:27:51 MS
Subject: Don't Break the City

Stu and Sue said:
>> Naw...just make sure you tell her the story real slow, so she 
>> understands...  
>> 
>> Stu "looking for somewhere to hide" Dollar
>
>(Hands on hips, foot tapping)
>
>Dear, we'll finish this discussion *privately* at home tonight!
>(notice he waits til I'm safely at work!)

OK you two, I have to drive through Phoenix tomorrow, so don't do anything 
destructive to the city's infrastructure.  Put the plasma guns away 'til 
Sunday, and divert that .1c asteroid.

Of course, I do have 4WD, just in case...

Steve Charlton
Owner of a Kevlar Vest and a Blazer

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 96 17:33:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#485] Time Travel

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes...

T::>I've just discovered that it likely *is* possible to use the jump drive
 ::>to do "time travel", and not nearly as hard as I'd thought it would be.
 ::>(hint: if you can do jump 6, and can also boost to a few hundred km/sec
 ::>you can probably do it.

T::>I haven't done more than a rough calculation so far. Anybody interested
 ::>in details on what it would take to send messages (easiest) or ships
 ::>(much harder) back in time?

 I'm sure a lot of people are.  Freelance Traveller is willing
 to publish it.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ question = '\xff';  // optimized Hamlet

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 4 Oct 96 14:49:10 MS
Subject: Planetary/System Defense

 fenris@solon.com (Derek Dees) said:

>We are defending our solar system.
>
> snip-o-rama
>
>First layer:    Trip Wire outposts in the outer most orbit. 
Only helpful if an enemy jumps into the system in that area.  Granted, that 
would be a good way of standing off and gathering a lot of useful electronic 
intelligence, but you (the attacker) run the risk of alerting the defenders 
long before you can hurt them.  Of course, if I was jumping in to launch an 
asteroid <THWAP>...  Oh, sorry, what was I saying?  Oh yes, I could jump in 
much closer to the mainworld, and avoid these defenses altogether.  I would 
still have these stations, but they would be a fairly minor part of my overall 
strategy.

>Second Layer:  Bases on Saturn and Jupiter. 
Absolutely, ranging from listening posts to good-sized fighter / SDB bases.  
And some SDBs cruising around in the Gas Giant's atmosphere, to pop-up later 
for a little surprise.

>Third layer: Several small bases scattered through the asteroid belts.
Yup, and some Meson sites as well for extra fun-n-games.

>Fourth Layer: Larger scale SDBs and as many heavy ships or ships of the
>line that can be accumulated for point reinforcement to cut off the
>incomping OPFOR. Also, if affordable, a scattering of satellites that
>launched "stealth" missles designed to act as ship killers.
Really, you'd have several Fourht Layers; one around each of your more 
important planets/asteroids/space stations.  I would imagine that the "Ships of 
the Line" in these postions would NOT be jump-capable starships, but would 
instead be really big SDBs; maybe even that big planetoid monitor.  Your 
jump-capable fleet should be out in the spacelanes causing trouble for the 
enemy's worlds and supply lines; that's what you spent all that money on the 
jump drives for.

>Final Layer: Minimal HEO/LEO defenses, mostly limited to defending orbital
>repair installations and facilities. 
I would arm this layer quite heavily, as it would be very cost effective.  By 
arming heavily, I mean have plenty of lasers, missiles and even "spinal" 
weapons on the larger stations, base lots of fighters on them, and support them 
with lots of independant defensive satellites.  Being close in, you are near to 
the support and maintenance personnell, you can spend less money on support and 
waste less space for long-term crew quarters.  The idea about sneaky "one shot" 
missile or gun emplacements is neat; I would suggest these be mobile for even 
more security; enemy intelligence might learn the location of permanent 
one-shot missile silos, but a set of big grav vehicles with missiles or that 
can combine into a Meson Gun would be quite a nasty variable for the attacker's 
planners to deal with.

This would be interesting to game out.  I would try using Battle Rider in a 
sort of mini-campaign.  Let the defender develop his layers of defense based on 
a specific budget, and let the attacker try to punch through, one layer at a 
time (each layer being a different scenario).  Eventually, if the attacker gets 
to the final layer, he gets to use his remaining ships to defeat the planetary 
defenses and try to suppress hidden missiles and meson sites while landing 
troops.  IF he gets that far...

Steve Charlton


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #492
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Traveller-digest          Saturday, 5 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 493

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #491
         2. Re: Time travel
         3. Re: I've been thinking about novels again.
         4. Re: Yet another new character career : The journalist
         5. Re: RED ZONE: An adventure
         6. T4 Quality Control
         7. Re: The Archaean Thesis
         8. Kinunirs
         9. Re: T4 Errors
        10. test
        11. Re: T4 Errors
        12. Fwd: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: ms.mpgn.com: host not found)
        13. Fossils and Time Travel
        14. Re: Time travel
        15. Anyone in the Wash DC area have hardbound?
        16. RE: The Archaean Thesis
        17. Test
        18. test
        19. Re: I've been thinking about novels again.
        20. Re: Naval Bases

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 18:29:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #491

>Well, I hope you are right, but the response to the trouble some folks had
>with the Core Sector Map in the T4 book doesn't make me happy.  Don't get me
>wrong, until IG gets to the TNE universe, there is little 'canon' of mine
>that they can invalidate.  My trouble is that their reply to this problem
>sounded to me like they were saying, "Hey, this is the way we did it, if you
>don't like that tough!  It's our game and we will change what we ant to
>change."  I know they didn't use those words, but that was the impression I
>got.  That is not a healthy attitude in a company trying to find new
>customers and win over old ones.

The thing is, everyone was warned that this was going to happen! They said
SPECIFICALLY that only the systems that the PC's could know about in Year 0
would be detailed. Everything else would just be dots on a map; each
campaign would determine their own survey results. Given the MAJOR errors in
most of the survey data generated by DGP's flawed sector generation program,
since they had to change it all anyway, why not change the map, too? It IS
Marc Miller's game. The decision to alter the Core Sector was MARC MILLER's;
IG just published what he gave them.
        Sylea/Capital still exists. As I recall, in the official GDW
publications, that and Reference were the only planets in the Core Sector
that had been detailed at all. I see nothing wrong with IG's attitude;
they're doing what the game's creator, and the man they pay the licensing
fees to, wants them to do.

>My only point to this is that in all of the novels and text books I have
>read, I have found VERY FEW errors.  This in contrast with a rushed,
>slap-together job on the T4 main book?  I don't think asking for a 95+%
>error free book is out of the ordinary.  Granted, I have no idea what the
>RPG industry as a whole is like, but I know that I do not like error plagued
>material.

No one likes mistakes, but they can occasionally be amusing. I own an Avalon
Hill boxing game called Title Bout. Do you know a boxer can be disqualified
for being an International Butt? I have never seen an RPG product that
wasn't riddled with errors on a first printing. With the possible exception
of TSR. companies this small can't afford professional-quality editors. They
might get lucky and find someone who has talent, but most of the time they
don't.
        Another one of my favorite Traveller typos (this one courtesy of
Pyramid Magazine's "Murphy's Rules"); the text in TNE clearly states that it
is the PLAYERS, not the "characters", who take burn damage from vehicle
explosions. (" C'mon, Bob, it's in the rules. Now hold still while I get the
lighter fluid...")

                        Allen


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 18:42:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Time travel

Earl Wajenberg wrote:
> 
> Work up a velocity of a large fraction of c *away* from the planet.
> The relativistic effects skew your "plane of simultaneity" so that
> what *was* the planet's past is now contemporary with you.
> 
> Make a jump (or a quick series of them) to the planet.  Assuming the
> effective average speed of jump travel is the same in all frames of
> reference, you will arrive on the planet before you made your first
> jump toward it.
> 

Has anyone tried to calculate the amount of fuel necessary to do this? I
haven't but it sounds like it would be prohibitive. The only way I can
think of is if the ship has access to one or more of the handy dandy
"bag of holding" Portals from the Signal GK adventure. (Apologies for
the reference to something from the Other Game..mea culpa, mea culpa)

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 18:51:17 -0700
Subject: Re: I've been thinking about novels again.

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Oh yeah, since we *now* know that a normal star can't go nova, it'd
> have to be something else. Say, discovering that the star is an
> irregular variable and is starting to head towards a peak that is
> lethal.

Looks like I missed something important coming to light in Cosmology.
'sigh' Anybody know a good webpage for keeping track of new discoveries?

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 19:01:09 -0700
Subject: Re: Yet another new character career : The journalist

galliand@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Hi.  I'm usually a lurker, so this is my first time providing something
> substantive here.  I've developed a new career for the journalist.  I
> <snip>
> I hope you find it useful.
> 

Yes, please post as a text file if it's not too much trouble. Hooboy,
watch out for Kolchek the Nightstalker (anyone remember him?).

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 19:10:07 -0700
Subject: Re: RED ZONE: An adventure

Alan Shock wrote:
> if anyone messes with the machinery, it will awaken. (If any of you remember
> the adventure "Demon Dark" in CHALLENGE 58 by Michael R. Mikesh, you'll know
> what this is...)
> 

Remember something that caused 90% casualties among my crew?
You betcha...

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 4 Oct 96 17:13:06 MS
Subject: T4 Quality Control

Paul Walker said:
>My only point to this is that in all of the novels and text books I have
>read, I have found VERY FEW errors.  This in contrast with a rushed,
>slap-together job on the T4 main book?  I don't think asking for a 95+%
>error free book is out of the ordinary.  Granted, I have no idea what the
>RPG industry as a whole is like, but I know that I do not like error plagued
>material.

You have at least a 95% error-free book in T4.  A book that is 95% error-free 
would have one word in twenty wrong, spelled incorrectly or missing.  ;-)

Seriously, the book has errors, and some of them are big honking ones, but I've 
much worse from much larger companies.  Anybody out there ever look at the 
first edition of Gamma World?  Somebody mentioned AD&D Player's Handbook 1st 
edition.  Heck, that was Shakespeare compared to the first edition of the DM's 
Guide.  And by that time, TSR was large enough to have several full-time 
professional editors on the job.  The point is that these got better, and 
hopefully T4 will also get better.

I have my own beefs with T4, but quality control probably won't be one of 
them.  These guys seem to care about what they're doing.  In the ideal world 
they should have kept T4 until it was truly ready, but the realities of 
marketing and venture capital decreed that Imperium Games was REQUIRED to have 
something ready by GenCon.  Sure, they could have been stiffnecked and stuck to 
their principles, but the likely result of that would have been less press 
coverage, less exposure and less venture capital.  I imagine IG would have 
loved another month (heck, even another week), but reality said NO, and reality 
can be a bitch sometimes.  

(Oh, great, now I'm starting to sound like The Tick.  Slap me if I start mixing 
metaphors).

I've worked on startup (non-gaming) magazines before, so I know some of the 
crap IG had to go through.  Frankly, I'm amazed they managed to get a book out 
with no upside down pictures; that was always our biggest problem.  Someday I'd 
love to find a truly first edition copy of Traveller to see how many errors 
were in those little black books.  I suspect the result would be surprising.

Non-Rantingly Yours,
Steven Charlton

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 19:17:29 -0700
Subject: Re: The Archaean Thesis

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 
> That was my fault, Trent, I owned neither of the two adventure books and just
> typed it in as if i knew what I was talken about.  I guess thats why we need
> you "lawyers and scribes" on TML.
> 

Yeah, well, I *do* own them, they were pivotal in the development of my
most favorite character of all time, and I still got it wrong. Forgive
me, I have sinned. I abase myself (sounds of a skull thwapping
repeatedly on a stone floor).

------------------------------

From: Thanasis Kinias <tkinias@primenet.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 18:54:53 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Kinunirs

Boyd Schnieder wrote:
>
> Rich Ostorero said:
> 
> . . .
>
> >In my Year 0 game, there are other pocket empires thinking the same
> >thing as the Syleans are thinking -- just like in the RC game I ran
> >there was the Solee with their Starburst-class CL as well as their
> >relic Kinunirs -- all of 
> 
> But I thought the Kinuner wasn't produced until a few centuries later?
> . . .

IIRC, the _Kinunir_s were built in the eleventh century (pre-Civil War).
I'm sure I remember a note that only 20 were built and all served in the
Marches (in CT).  _The Regency Sourcebook_ says they were returned to
production during the Final War.  Is it likely to find them in the former
Solomani space (e.g. RC)?

				Thanasis Kinias
				tkinias@primenet.com


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 21:33:20 -0500
Subject: Re: T4 Errors

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 12:30:07 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: T4 Errors
>
>Hi,
>
>All the recent discussion over whether IG is or is not concerned with the 
>errors in T4 has prompted me to write this message.

Always glad for your input Joe, but let me clarify.  I have no misconception
that IG isn't worried about the errors.  I know that they are intelligent
men and interested in running a good business, and therefore they must be
concerned about the errors.  My big beef is that the errors made it into the
final product.  Yeah, they may not be MAJOR errors, but there are a number
of them.  That is my concern.

>I know for a fact that IG is very concerned about it.  I know this 
>because I (and, presumably, a number of others) have been asked to edit 
>a copy of T4 and send it to IG (who will then send a new copy 
>of T4 in return).  My voluminous notations, along with those of the 
>other people asked to do such editing, will be used in order to produce 
>"version 1.1" of T4 that will be as close to error-free as is humanly 
>possible.

I am very glad to hear this, but IMHO, the damage has already been done by
sending out T4 with the (to use your word, Joe) voluminous errors that were
there.  BTW, IG, I would be willing to do this on the same deal if you want.
I want to be very clear, I am willing to do everything I can to provide a
better product.  If that means IG wants me to proofread everything, I will
do my best to clean up any errors I find, and then when the book comes out,
I will dutifully purchase my copy.  I am not just griping, I am pointing out
what I feel is a problem and I am offering a solution.

>Oh, and no, I don't have any idea when a new edition of T4 would be out. :( 
>Presumably sometime next year - perhaps first quarter.  I really don't know.

Sooner the better, IMO.  I think IG would also be wise to offer this new
book at a discount to those willing to send in their old book (like offer a
mail in rebate or something).  It is more important now that ever that
future products be error free.

For the glory of the Flame...


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 22:57:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: test

test, apologies for the mail but I am having problems and am
troubleshooting

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 22:14:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Errors

On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> I am very glad to hear this, but IMHO, the damage has already been done by
> sending out T4 with the (to use your word, Joe) voluminous errors that were
> there.  

What you're saying is very true, and I didn't mean to imply that you 
specifically were concerned about IG's willingness to repair the existing 
errors.  I posted that comment simply to get the information out there 
that something IS being done about the grammatical/typographic errors, 
and not just the errata-worthy stuff like missing jump tables. 

In short, my message was intended as a reassurance, not as an attack.  
I'm sorry that it came off differently than I intended.  I guess I should 
error-check my postings better. [sigh]


> BTW, IG, I would be willing to do this on the same deal if you want.
> I want to be very clear, I am willing to do everything I can to provide a
> better product.  If that means IG wants me to proofread everything, I will
> do my best to clean up any errors I find, and then when the book comes out,
> I will dutifully purchase my copy.  I am not just griping, I am pointing out
> what I feel is a problem and I am offering a solution.

And, again, I never intended to say that you, or anyone else, was "just 
griping."  I just saw a lot of posts regarding the seriousness and 
quantity of errors in T4, and thought it might prove reassuring to know 
that there really is an effort under way to make things better the next 
time around.  In other words, something more than what I had said before, 
which was essentially, "Well, IG is a good company, and they'll do better 
next time."  Something concrete.

Yup, I could have phrased it better.  Sigh.

I'm very sorry for the confusion I caused.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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> for <traveller@ms.mpgn.com>; Fri, 4 Oct 1996 23:13:41 -0400 (EDT)
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>Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 20:13:06
>From: bborich@gnn.com ()
>To: traveller@ms.mpgn.com
>Subject: T4 errors/canon/arrived in Calif.
>
>     Well my hardbound edition finally arrived this past Monday, 
>just in time for me to take a glance at it (and yes it's in 
>California).
>
>     It's funny that one of the first things I read in it was the 
>five goals, especially goal 4.
>
>     Now it seems to me that changing the subsector around does 
>change the history a bit. Offhand I'd have believed their line 
>about it a lot more, if they had not used the Imperial Atlas at all 
>and just placed the systems where they wanted (and in which case 
>since they show only the one subsector, it would have made more 
>sense to place Sylea in the middle of the map). The way they did it 
>makes it seem more like a mistake they don't want to admit to.
>
>    That's not to say I don't understand at least why they did what 
>they did. It just seems like another 'mistake' along the Virus 
>lines.
>
>    <Artwork> Now I know where I've seen that artwork style before 
>(about the same time that Traveller was first out in the Space 
>Patrol books, and I think the only part I tried adapting to 
>Traveller).
>
>
>     <Minor races> I'm surprised now ones brought these up yet, but 
>they certainly don't live up to the usual standards. The Asyms 
>resemble Moties, except I find it impossible to swallow why their 
>limbs developed the way they did.
>      The Graytch remind me of some critter out of the old AD&D 
>modules or some other fantasy book maybe. Except they have morales, 
>whereas the other critters I remember didn't.
>      The Denaar are somewhat interesting, but how did the 
>intellects develop? and how do they multiply?
>      The Rye-Ben are escapees from Larry Niven's universe (from 
>the planet We Made It, I think).
>      And the Hreesh seem like escapees from 2300ad.
>
>      It probably would have been better if the Melieu book were 
>going to be out first too.
>
>
>      As for my take on the book, well I won't be playing it, nor 
>did I have any intention too (for that matter the same applied to 
>MT and TNE). The only reason I broke down and bought the book was 
>for the starship construction rules (the only thing new in the 
>book).
>      The traveller rules system as a whole has gone past the point 
>where I have any appreciation of them. And the TNE character 
>creation system was the best of that lot (although I wouldn't have 
>minded keeping the old careers around just for the sake of it).
>
>     Oh yeah, and just to cause some more flames. Year 0 makes the 
>best cyberpunk/dark future setting around for traveller, you have 
>nobles vying for positions, at least 3 'mega'corps ready to stomp 
>on new territories. And all sorts of citizens being used and abused 
>I'm sure.
>
>    And the best sig for traveller players should be:
>
>---- Be careful what you wish for, you might get what you want ----
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 14:20:19 +0900
Subject: Fossils and Time Travel

Hello to all in TML land!

Earl Wajenberg wrote:

>>Work up a velocity of a large fraction of c *away* from the planet.
The relativistic effects skew your "plane of simultaneity" so that
what *was* the planet's past is now contemporary with you.

I'm not familiar enough with Relativity to fully understand this, but I 
think it's fascinating.  I would like to use it in an adventure, but I need 
more facts.  Could you please explain it further?  Why would your frame of 
reference be in the planet's past?  I thought that relativistic speeds would 
make it so that a trip to the center of the galaxy would be 10 years to you 
and 10,000 years to the planet you left (gross approximation here). 
 Wouldn't that be time travelling to the future?  How would jump drive 
change this?  Exactly how fast would you need to be going and how far away 
from the planet would you have to go to travel a certain time backward? 
 Please tell me more!  Fascinating!!  Thanks!

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>>You aren't looking at this correctly. Since none of the other worlds
have this, their sciences are going to have very weak evolutionary
theories if they have any at all. After all, if humans, and perhaps a
few food animals and plants (which will be *very* widespread by the
time science is invented) don't fit in with the rest of the native
organisms, that's going to make the jump from genetics (the monk in the
garden with the bean plants) to evolution a lot harder.

This would be very true for scientists on planets which did not evolve any 
life on their own.  But since there are many planets which did, and 
scientists there would be able to see fossil evidence of (alien) evolution, 
I wouldn't think that those scientists would have weak evolutionary theories 
(unless they were very religious ;) ).  Even Vland has locally evolved life 
forms that human Vilani can't eat without special food preparation 
techniques.  The fossil evidence for the evolution of the local life forms 
would not only help demonstrate evolution, it would highlight the fact that 
some (transplanted) life forms, including humans, did not fit in at all. 
 This would drive scientists to search for a reason why.  Don't you agree?

I live in Japan and I haven't received my hardcover T4 yet.  I ordered in in 
July or so, and I guess I must have asked to have it sent by surface mail. 
 I'm really discouraged by all the reports of errata, though.  I hope IG 
gets much more careful about it in the future.  Spell checking their e-mail 
messages would be another way to show us that IG will pay attention to 
detail in the future.  I began to worry about the possibility of errata 
problems when I saw Ken Whitman's first message announcing his policy toward 
Traveller fans long ago.  I'm sure he is a great person, and I mean no 
insult to him or anyone else by nitpicking their spelling, but glaring 
spelling errors on a regular basis tend to give a bad impression of 
carelessness, especially from someone who is going to be publishing many 
books.  It's like seeing a tailor who's suit doesn't fit right.

Anyone know where I can mail order some of the stuff GDW published just 
before going under (like Guilded Lilly, last few Challenges)?


Armand
Die-Hard Traveller Ref since '82
Go IG!!


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 01:48:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Time travel

Yes... - Bill

------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 01:50:56 -0400
Subject: Anyone in the Wash DC area have hardbound?

Still waiting (tho I picked up my softbound some time ago...) - Bill

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 96 04:21:38 UT
Subject: RE: The Archaean Thesis

A repentant David Joseph Smart spake and said:

Yeah, well, I *do* own them, they were pivotal in the development of my
most favorite character of all time, and I still got it wrong. Forgive
me, I have sinned. I abase myself (sounds of a skull thwapping
repeatedly on a stone floor).

<Boyd slides a pillow under DJ's head>



------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 05:02:43 -0700
Subject: Test

Test

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 05:04:11 -0700
Subject: test

test

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 23:22:52 PST
Subject: Re: I've been thinking about novels again.

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Oh yeah, since we *now* know that a normal star can't go nova, it'd
>> have to be something else. Say, discovering that the star is an
>> irregular variable and is starting to head towards a peak that is
>> lethal.
>
> Looks like I missed something important coming to light in Cosmology.
> 'sigh' Anybody know a good webpage for keeping track of new discoveries?

Nope. I just read science articles in things like Scientific American
and Analog.

But the nova stuff is old news. 5-10 years, easy. 

Novas are a binary system with a white dwarf or neutron star (if forget
which, or if it can be both) that is close enough to the other star for
gas exchange to happen. 

The material from the normal star builds up on the surface until
there's enough to initiate a fusion reaction. Off goes the star like a
giant flashbulb.

Of course, how big a bang you get depends on how fast the stuff
accumulates. If it accumulates too much, too fast, you get a core
collapse, which gives a supernova and destroys the star. (oops!)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 20:58:09 PST
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

In mail you write:

> First, there are several options for starbase conception;

Please remember that the current style of base is not necessarily the
correct style. Look at the way bases were done in other times, when
offense/defense had a different balance.

> 1). Starbases and naval bases are undefended shells, on the
> theory that they are too delicate and would lose flexibility if they
> had their own defenses.  If a well armed foe approaches an orbital
> facility, it surrenders.  Defenses are Missiles on satellites specifically
> designed as missile platforms, system defense "boats" (some of which could
> be 10,000+ ton Battle Riders), and regular fleet units which happen to be
> in system or are moved to the system when news of an attack reaches them
> (obviously due to advance intelligence efforts).  Also, if aplicable, the
> bases would be in range of any planetary Meson Weapons.

This goes against centuries of precedent. If you can't easily put the
defenses "in" the base, you surround it with fortified emplacements
that have to be reduced before attacking the base becomes practical. In
Traveller this is doable.

> 2). As above, but there are "Orbital Forts", Maybe 200,000 tons, fitted
> with hundreds of fighters, laser turrets, meson guns (bay weapons),
> heavily armored and armed, whose only purpose is defense.

Way too small. To be of any practical use, they need to be *bigger*
(and nastier) than any ship or combination of ships that will attack.
Check out harbor forts for any pre-WWII naval base. *Big* guns.
Multiple yards of armor.

> 3). Everything as 1). but the bases themselves are heavily armed and
> armored.

> I would argue for 1).  Why build a massive ship which can only be used in
> one system when the same resources can be used to build several
> jump-capable ships, admittedly of lesser combat capability, but with
> significantly greater flexibility.

Because, while a fleet is needed to attack, and is useful for defense,
it is *critical* to be able to keep the enemy from taking important
systems and bases. 

Remember, rule #1 in warfare is HOLD ON TO YOUR OWN TERRITORY. 

Flexibility is useless if the enemy holds your territory. And
non-mobile fortifications don't use many of the same resources that the
fleet uses. Powerplants are pretty generic, and they are more likely to
use the sort used for stationary installations, not spacecraft (that
makes them cheaper, because they can be larger and heavier, and easier
to get at for maintenance). They don't use drives. They do use weapons,
but many of them will be of a different sort.

Oh yeah, better check the way military budgets are written.
Expenditures for fleets and for bases come out of different budget
areas.

> Defenders would know whenever a large hostile force is within a few light
> hours.  Massive Passive and active arrays on the various planets and moons
> would pick up invaders easily, and orbital arrays would enhance this
> picture.  The planet is under no cumpunction against using active sensors
> (its not like the attackers wont know where it is!).

No kidding. Though they may want to hide the location of some sensors,
just to make them harder to knock out.

> An American military base will have anti-aircraft and anti-missile
> defenses. It will not generally have anti-ship defenses, and mostly it
> relys on mobile assets (especially aircraft) to take out a threat before
> it is able to do damage rather than on any local defensive countermeasures
> or weapons.  On the other hand, Iraqi bases have hardened aircraft bunkers
> (armor), Anti-aircraft missiles and guns, troops and tanks stationed
> locally, etc.  So the choice is up to you.

The difference is that the Iraqis don't expect nuclear attack. We do.
Defending against nukes on the ground is a pain, and generally not
worth it. So we only do so at places like Cheyenne mountain, SAC
headquarters, the National Command center, etc. In space, it's a
requirement.

> If you decide on a "big spacecraft" type naval base (which you seem to
> have done) consider the likelyhood of a hollowed out asteroid.  Most
> construction would be done "free" in space rather than in a 'space dock'
> (perhaps with a surrounding gantry to allow easy movement of heavy
> equipment). Ships would (IMHO) dock onto the outside of a base, not take
> the unnecessary risk of manuvering into some chamber inside the base.  

The base can be in the asteroid, more likely the base would be
protected by several asteroids that had been moved into orbits
providing overlapping fields of fire. You'd have to knock out one or
more of them to be able to get near the base without getting blown out
of the sky.

> If personnel stay there in a permanent way, I would allow about 20 tons
> per person of space to accomadate larger quarters plus all the amenities
> we would expect for a prolonged stay (laundry, restraunts, bars,
> libraries).
>
> You will also need to make a life support determination.  Is life support
> completely ship-like?  this means materials and chemicals (oxygen etc)
> needs to be brought in regularly.  If, on the other hand, there is a
> closed-system life support structure, more space needs to be set aside
> (around 5 tons per person[?!?]) for hydroponic tanks full of 
> carbon-dioxide processing plankton and other organisms, which also process
> wastes and provide some food. 

Considering the size of asteroid you'd want to dig into, the space for
these things is almost inconsequential. To have sufficient thickness of
nickel iron for armor, you'll be digging into something kilometers
across. So you've got room for cubic kilometers of equipment. 

Besides the fact that it makes better armor, there's another reason for
picking nickel iron asteroids. The metal you cut out to build things
can be sold for a profit, or used to help build ships. In fact, it's
quite possible that there will be large *unused* spaces.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #493
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Traveller-digest          Saturday, 5 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 494

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Time travel
         2. Re: Naval Bases
         3. Re: Time travel
         4. Re: The Archaean Thesis
         5. Fw: More thoughts about Speedy Missiles
         6. (no subject)
         7. Traveller Auction
         8. Re: Various subjects, long, somewhat rantish.
         9. I am going to give it a go...
        10. Re: T4 Book 2 ? Need campaign help...
        11. Re: Various subjects, long, somewhat rantish.
        12. TimeLine
        13. Re: T4 Book 2 ? Need campaign help...
        14. RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #478
        15. Re: Traveller Auction
        16. Background for T4 (Was Re: Need campaign help)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 00:18:36 PST
Subject: Re: Time travel

In mail you write:

> Earl Wajenberg wrote:
>> 
>> Work up a velocity of a large fraction of c *away* from the planet.
>> The relativistic effects skew your "plane of simultaneity" so that
>> what *was* the planet's past is now contemporary with you.
>> 
>> Make a jump (or a quick series of them) to the planet.  Assuming the
>> effective average speed of jump travel is the same in all frames of
>> reference, you will arrive on the planet before you made your first
>> jump toward it.
>> 
>
> Has anyone tried to calculate the amount of fuel necessary to do this? I
> haven't but it sounds like it would be prohibitive. The only way I can
> think of is if the ship has access to one or more of the handy dandy
> "bag of holding" Portals from the Signal GK adventure. (Apologies for
> the reference to something from the Other Game..mea culpa, mea culpa)

See my reply to Mr. Wajenberg, complete with the xboat to the past
scenario. Using *two* ships avoids loading all the accel/decel onto one
ship, as well as the need to jump twice without refueling.

So it's much easier to send messages than ships.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 21:58:41 PST
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

In mail you write:

> Second Layer:  Bases on Saturn and Jupiter. These would be built into the
> moons and serve to support/supply transient ships, the first layer of SDBs
> (substantially built, but small and lots of them), and ships designed to
> deny the use of the gas giants to the incoming forces.

Note that fighting a base dug well into an ice moon is going to be
*hell* to reduce. They have essentially unlimited fuel. And in the case
of some of the moons, the base may be mobile (think of a deep meson
site inside a submarine cruising the under ice oceans of Europa). Given
the temp of the moon, heat dissipation is easy. So you can build the
powerplant from hell to run things.

Heck, given the amount heat the base would generate, it could melt its
way thru the ice at quite a clip. 

> Third layer: Several small bases scattered through the asteroid belts, most
> likely buried inside substantial asteroids. These would again support a
> large number of fighters and SDBs.

There are good reasons to go ahead and build some substantial "strong
points" in the belt, not just small bases. Partly for the purpose of
building "forts" to be moved into Earth orbit. 

> Fourth Layer: Larger scale SDBs and as many heavy ships or ships of the
> line that can be accumulated for point reinforcement to cut off the
> incomping OPFOR. Also, if affordable, a scattering of satellites that
> launched "stealth" missles designed to act as ship killers.

> Final Layer: Minimal HEO/LEO defenses, mostly limited to defending orbital
> repair installations and facilities. These facilities are limited to repair
> and as transshipment points for supplies and personal. There may also be
> manufacturing facilities located in the Asteroid belt, but those would be
> included with layer three. On the planet however, would be a number of
> "one" shot missle/meson gun emplacements, but these would be interspersed
> among the population and manufacturing centers and the majority of the
> personal would be dispersed among the population to act as insurgent
> forces.

With even year 0 tech, it is possible to move sizable asteroids into
Earth orbit if you are willing to take your time. So putting a dozen or
so into orbit as last ditch defenses is not unreasonable. And they'll
help draw fire *away* from the planet.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 00:12:18 PST
Subject: Re: Time travel

In mail you write:

> I don't know how Mr. Erickson discovered it, but I can suggest how 
> you can *do* it:
>
> Position your ship several light-years away from the world on which you 
> wish to land in the past.
>
> Work up a velocity of a large fraction of c *away* from the planet.
> The relativistic effects skew your "plane of simultaneity" so that 
> what *was* the planet's past is now contemporary with you.
>
> Make a jump (or a quick series of them) to the planet.  Assuming the 
> effective average speed of jump travel is the same in all frames of 
> reference, you will arrive on the planet before you made your first 
> jump toward it.
>
> Of course, the distance from the target place-and-time, the speed of 
> the ship away from the target, and the jump schedule all depend on 
> how far back in time you want to go.
>
> If Mr. Erickson has a different way to do it, I'd be very interested 
> to hear it.

>From discussions in rec.arts.sf.science, you have *one* important
detail wrong. You want to your velocity to be *towards* the planet
(this is assuming a jump out, accelerate, jump back scenario).

And the critical speed is supposedly when the product of your effective
speed from the jump and your realspace velocity exceeds c.

The easy way is to have someone in a jump 6 ship accelerate to high
speed *towards* the target in a system 6 parsecs away. You jump out in
another jump 6 ship, beam the critical info (Zhodani attack coming at
XXX) to the other ship as soon as you exit jumpspace, and they jump to
the system you left, arriving *before* you left.

I have to sit down and work of a good set of example figures to show
this.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 09:11:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: The Archaean Thesis

>From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
>>Cool man Glenn Grant said:
>
>>The main bit of evidence the PCs had to figure out was a hollow asteroid, >a
>>religious pilgrimage site and tourist trap known as the "Rock of Duriam",
>>which had once been an Ancient starship. Some surfaces could be made >to
>
>Oh wow, if you have any of that stuff on your PC, I sure would love to see 
>some of it!  Would you consider a barter?   Quid Pro Quo.

Sorry. Very little even existed on paper. Dragging out my old campaign
notebook, I find only this: 

"Hajira/Gateway: G4IV, A000777-E  S      Non-Agri     G.
A vast array of ice and rock belts, mostly claimed by five nations... [etc]

First and last stop on the Frontier Hajj Route. The Larikan Belt is the
home of the Rock of Duriam, considered sacred by the Galactic Spritualists,
Zensunni, and Aljeyans."

And that's about it. I'd intended to develop it in detail, with maps and so
on, but of course I never had the time. My players were keen to get started
right away, so I began running the campaign without being entirely
prepared...

Oh wait, there's more in the little "Gateway Subsector Library Data"
booklet I wrote on a terrible old manual typewriter, in around 1982. Here
we are:

"Rock of Duriam: Most famous of several known Ancient sites in the Frontier
Extents. Also called the "Ship of Gold", this 25km wide spheroid of rock in
the Hajira Belt was discovered four centuries ago. Consists mostly of an
amalgam of silicates and carbonaceous chondrite, with an unusually high
gold content. Hollowed out and fitted as a space habitat millenia ago by an
unknown race whose identity is hotly debated by archaeologists. Many
religions, primarily the Galactic Spiritualists, Aljeyans and Zensunni,
consider it a holy shrine and make long pilgrimages to tour the structure.
(See Kilsyth/Hajira War.)"

(The 'war' was a conflict between the "retro-Islamic" religious
dictatorship that once ruled the Hajira system, and the militant atheists
of nearby Kilsyth, which resulted in the balkanization of Hajira. Lots of
terrorist activity ever since, abortive jihads to reunite the belts, etc.
Typical background craziness in my CT game...)

The Solomani authorites had been unable to fathom its workings, and to stop
the continual agitation and terror attacks agreed to open the thing to
Pilgrims and tourists. Of course, as soon as they heard about it, the PCs
wanted to take the tour, and I had to wing it. Made up all sorts of cryptic
architectural weirdness off the top of my head - that's when I came up with
the glyphs appearing in the walls - very little of which actually meant
anything.

I'd been hoping the PCs would do something crazy, sneak away from the tour
party, knock out some guards and try to steal something incredibly
valuable, and set off some unfathomable Ancient technology in the process.
But they wussed out.

So it goes...

Glenn

PS: To Trent Smith: Yeah, _Secret of the Ancients_, that's the one. Never
read it, as far as I can recall. But I knew about the Droyne hypothesis,
from other CT referees I hung out with.

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
 "I see it now! Madness IS the way!" -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 11:40:50 +1000
Subject: Fw: More thoughts about Speedy Missiles

Another thought that I forgot to mention last time ...

Granted that fuel considerations *may* well make missiles on a 30 minute
game turn scale slower and thus be *effectively* equal to a 6G2 or 12G1 or
whatever.

The problem is, of course, that all missiles in Traveller are assumed to
be *one ton*. A 100-ton Bay contains 100 missiles. That's always been the
assumption.

Why?

Why not a 5-ton or 10-ton missile? That way you could concievably have
missiles with enough fuel to be a (for example - and, no, I haven't worked
this out yet!) 10 ton 48G turn missile (i.e. 48G1, 24G2, 12G4 6G8 etc.).
And, of course, this something that no previous version of Traveller has
ever allowed for - neither have they allowed for *better* missiles. Like
the QSDS which allows only TL8 missiles (for example).

For really large ships you could have larger missiles - perhaps a 100 ton
sensor drone armed with 1 ton missiles (a missile with missiles, in
effect!), or a *really* long range missile. They would be just great for
surprise attacks - the first thing the defending ships would know would be
that all these drive flares on their gravitic sensors would come up, as
the missiles that have been coasting in stealthed mode lit their drives to
attack. Or, you could have one sob of a 100-ton missile with *really* high
speed and *much* longer endurance than anything would likely be able to
get away from!

I know that the Starships book is *supposed* to be finished - but the
release date in the main rulebook is listed as September 96 - and no-one
on any of the relevant lists has mentioned it as being available ... and
it isn't listed as being available (well, as of last night, I haven't
checked for tonight) by Imperium Games on their Web Page, either. So why
not mention it (missiles, I mean)?

Just some thoughts, anyway.

Phil McGregor
- -- 
Phil McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Have Game Designer Will Travel

------------------------------

From: Kastytis Grigonis <kastytis@camtech.net.au>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 23:30:24 +0930
Subject: (no subject)

unsubscribe traveller-digest

------------------------------

From: "Nathan & Theresa Mezel" <hotchip@oeonline.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 10:09:17 -0400
Subject: Traveller Auction

I would like to announce the start of a small auction of out of print
Traveller material from GDW, FASA, and DGP.

All bids are to be emailed to me directly and I will post current high bids
to this list as necessary.  The auction will close Friday, October 18th,
and recipients will be notified via email as to total cost with shipping.
Payment in U.S. funds only please (check or money order, no cash).
Items paid by check will be sent as soon as the check clears the bank or in
the case of money orders, the day after payment is received.  So if you
want it fast
money orders are the way to go.

The following items are now up for bid:

>From GDW

1.   Adventure 1: The Kinuir    Min Bid $1.00
      fine condition, minor cover wear 
2.  Double Adventure 2: Mission on Mithril  Min Bid $1.00
      fine condition, minor cover wear
3.  Double Adventure 3: Death Station  Min Bid $1.00
     fine condition, minor cover wear
4.  Double Adventure 5: Chamax Plague  Min Bid $1.00
     fine condition, minor cover wear
5.  Double Adventure 6: Divine Intervention  Min Bid $1.00
     very fine condition
6.  Book 8: Robots  Min Bid $10.00
     great shape! minor cover wear, a rare item!
7.  Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society No. 5  Min Bid 5.00
     very fine condition
8.  JTAS No. 6  Min Bid $5.00
     very fine condition
9.  JTAS No.7  Min Bid   3.00
     very fine cond.
10. JTAS No.7  MIn Bid $3.00
      same as above
11.  JTAS No.11  Min Bid $3.00
      very fine cond.
12.  JTAS No. 12  Min Bid $1.00
       very fine cond, missing merchant pull-out
13.  Alien Module 1: Aslan   Min Bid $5.00
       nearly mint!
14.  Alien Module 4: Zhodani  Min Bid $5.00
      good condition, cover wear
15.  Astrogators' Guide to Diaspora  Min Bid $5.00
      new in shrink wrap

>From Digest Group Publications

16.  101 Vehicles  Min bid $10.00
       like new
17.  Referee's Gaming Kit  Min Bid $7.00
       like new, complete with handouts
18.  Flaming Eye Campaign Sourcebook  Min Bid $12.00
       very fine cond., little wear, a rare item

>From FASA and Others

19.  Legend of the Sky Raiders  Min Bid $5.00
       fair cond., cover wear, map is present
20.  Far Traveller No. 1  Min Bid $5.00
       very fine cond.
21.  High Passage No. 2  Min Bid $5.00
       very fine cond.
22.  High Passage No. 3   Min Bid $5.00
      very fine cond.
23.  High Passage No. 4   Min Bid $5.00
      very fine cond
24.  High Passage No. 5   Min Bid $5.00
      very fine cond
25.  Scouts and Assassins 2nd ed.   Min Bid 5.00
       fair shape, small tear, cover wear, stain on cover, a rare item

Again, please email me directly with bids and questions.

Thanks

Nathan Mezel


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 08:46:34 -0600
Subject: Re: Various subjects, long, somewhat rantish.

>Besides how many of you 'Holy Canonists' out 
>there think Virus is NOT a heresy? Show of hands please?...

        I actually managed to explain it to my satisfaction as an engineer
and computer science grad student; I'm probably one of the three people in
the world who wound up (eventually) liking the TNE setting...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Graham Spearing <graham@eldamar.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 14:44:01 GMT
Subject: I am going to give it a go...

Hello,

The 19th & 20th of October sees a games weekend in Sheffield (UK). I now own my 
shiny (though conservatively laid out) T4. So I'll inflict it on the assembled 
veteren rpgers. Their verdict on all versions of Trav are split 50/50. 
Irregardless of the task system, it appears to be the background and the depth 
of the vision that either turns them on or leaves them cold.

I'd like to run something that stretches the game a little and gives them a feel 
for the task system and combat. Any thoughts on a good one off, of about 4 to 5 
hours playing time. I had wondered about playing with a modified Shadows.

The errors and typos don't worry me by the way. IG are looking for errata and 
will sort the teething problems out. What does bother me (a bit) is the lack of 
integration between scales in combat. Most systems will have a method of mixing 
character, vehicle, and bigger scales relatively seamlessly. Star Wars, Heavy 
Gear and Mekton all spring to mind. I feel it's a bit of a shame this was not 
alluded to in T4. Yep you can 'make it up', but then so you can with most of the 
rest of the game too. Simplicity yes, but a broader vision here would have been 
helpful. I hope this will be resolved soon. I am multiplying the vehicle armour 
by 5 when defending against character weapons. Does that feel OK?

The D3 in task resolution doesn't look that useful, we'll see what my lot make 
of it. The 3D max damage also feels wrong. It is very hard to kill someone with 
a single shot. But then perhaps that was the idea :)

Pip pip

- -- 
Graham
_____________________________________________________
| Thespian with Sheffield University Drama Society   |
| Companion of the Loyal Order of Chivalry & Sorcery |
|____________________________________________________|


------------------------------

From: Thomas Biskup <tb@saranxis.ruhr.de>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 23:32:27 +0200
Subject: Re: T4 Book 2 ? Need campaign help...

On Thu, 3 Oct 1996, Victor J. Raymond wrote:
> "IMHO this is probably the single worst
> problem with T4 - there is far too little background and adventure info to
> let people run a campaign with it out of the box."
> I have to disagree with the sentiment, if not the fact.  I _like_ there being
> little milieu to wade through to get to the game.

Well, an additional chapter with background information wouldn't have 
obscured the rules in any way.

>  Since I tend to run my own
> home-grown campaigns, anyway, a game like Traveller 4th Edition is well suited
> to my style of play.  Frankly, even if I was the sort to use a pre-packaged
> setting, I would want something like a later sourcebook than have the rules
> constantly interrupted by background specific to a single campaign setting.

See above.  The problem with rulebook the way it is now is, that it might 
be somewhat useful for people running their own campaign backgrounds.  
For people who would like to play according to the material provided (in 
future supplements) by IG it's right now not very useful (if you have not 
played Traveller in the past and want to stay consistent with whatever IG 
will produce you'll need to wait).

Now adding a chapter with background info wouldn't hurt players like you 
a lot -- you could simply ignore it.  Not having such a chapter hurts 
players like me (I want to use the IG background) quite a lot, since I 
can't make everything up without becoming very inconsistent to the 
official background.

> And I guess I am disturbed by the "fast food' mentality being advocated here by
> Mr. Macintosh.  Whatever happened to the days of completely original campaigns;
> something many readers of this list may recall?

Well, some people have to work a lot and just can't spend as many hours 
creating a new campaign of their own than they could when they were in 
school.  I never thought that I ever would lack the time to write my own 
adventurers and create my own campaigns but right now other 
responsibilities in life prevent me from doing that.  Thus I'd be very 
happy if there was more "meat " I could be using.

Ciao,

				Thomas Biskup.

- --
Thomas Biskup                               email to: tb@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Would you choose one life over one thousand?
 I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that."
                          -- Data and Picard, "Justice", stardate 41255.6

 


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 09:20:20 -0700
Subject: Re: Various subjects, long, somewhat rantish.

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
> >Besides how many of you 'Holy Canonists' out
> >there think Virus is NOT a heresy? Show of hands please?...
> 
>     I actually managed to explain it to my satisfaction as an engineer
>and computer science grad student;I'm probably one of the three people 
>in the world who wound up (eventually) liking the TNE setting...

I guess that'd make me one of the remaining two.  8)

Everyone seems to have this mistaken feeling that TNE is a military 
style game.  It's not there's plenty of other things going on here TNE 
like our modern world is media influenced and Military opperations get 
press.  When was the last time the CIA or MI9 or the KGB walked up to a 
microphone and told the world what they were up to.  It doesn't happen 
intelligence operations are secret and they never take out an add in the 
paper.  There's plenty going on in TNE besides smash and grabs.

Dave, sorry I've been so long getting back to you with more stuff for 
your page.  Finally setteled into my new place so I'll start writing more 
soon, I promise.  8)

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 12:21:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: TimeLine

Hi!
 
	Ok, now that we have "Milieus", I think someone should sit
down and really take the time to create a Timeline Database so 
we can check what's anachronistic and what's not.
 
	Of course a lot of the entries would/could be wrong, but I
think it would be a great help overall. 
 
	How about a HTMl document with ulp... 1000 links, one for
each year? <grin>

- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
	Independentist: My Canada excludes the federal bureaucracy :)
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)

------------------------------

From: "Victor J. Raymond" <RAYMOND@macalester.edu>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 11:54:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: T4 Book 2 ? Need campaign help...

Hmmmmm...

I am still decidedly on the side of keeping background/milieu to a minimum in a
rules book.  Providing examples would be fine, especially if there were
multiple settings outlined in a open framework for later addition by a referee,
but adventures and such like can come later.

Here's another suggestion: include with future releases of T4 a set of, say:

*	12 patrons (as in 76 patrons)
*	4 Amber zones
*	possibly an outline of a longer campaign with adventure ideas.

But, please, in the name of the Emperor, avoid getting it mixed in with the
rules.

Victor J. Raymond           Activist, Writer, Raconteur
3645 Bloomington Av. So.    raymond@macalstr.edu
Minneapolis, MN 55407       612.721.9635
 
"In the side of what had seemed to be a snow-bank stood a solid-looking little
door, painted a dark green.  An iron bell-pull hung by the side, and below it,
on a small brass plate, neatly engrave in square capital letters, they could
read by the aid of moonlight: --    Mr. Badger"   --   Wind in the Willows


------------------------------

From: David Howard <david@simdavid.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 18:34:18 +-100
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #478

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBB2EB.F5AF84C0
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Yes, goes back quite away,can't remember exactly when it was out. From =
what I recall they were all "ground" based ie:fixed to a solid body. Ah, =
those were the days when we sold real games at Games Workshop, pleased =
to say I no longer work for them!!:-)

Regards David Howard, England.

- ----------
From: 	=
owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM[SMTP:owner-traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.CO=
M]
Sent: 	02 October 1996 06:23
To: 	traveller-digest@NS.MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Traveller-digest V1996 #478


Traveller-digest         Wednesday, 2 October 1996     Volume 1996 : =
Number 478


From: Ed Dowgiallo <edowgial@prolog.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 23:22:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Naval Bases

Anyone familiar with a Judge's Guild Traveller supplement called "50=20
Starbases"?

- ------------------------------


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------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 12:01:18 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller Auction

Nathan,
>3.  Double Adventure 3: Death Station  Min Bid $1.00
>     fine condition, minor cover wear

I'll bid $1 over the current bid.

>4.  Double Adventure 5: Chamax Plague  Min Bid $1.00
>     fine condition, minor cover wear

$1 over the current bid (ie. if the current bid if $1, put me down for $2)

>17.  Referee's Gaming Kit  Min Bid $7.00
>       like new, complete with handouts

$1 over the current bid.

Peter Miller
PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com
1266 Pallatine Drive, Oakville, Ontario, L6H 1Z2, CANADA
(905) 945 8707

_______________________________Peter John Miller
"Touch 'em all Joe, you'll never hit a bigger home run in your life!"
            - Tom Cheek, 1993 World Series
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, all, on Peter's World
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 14:22:08 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Background for T4 (Was Re: Need campaign help)

On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, Thomas Biskup wrote:

> See above.  The problem with rulebook the way it is now is, that it might 
> be somewhat useful for people running their own campaign backgrounds.  
> For people who would like to play according to the material provided (in 
> future supplements) by IG it's right now not very useful (if you have not 
> played Traveller in the past and want to stay consistent with whatever IG 
> will produce you'll need to wait).

Here's a thought that is probably completely off-base, but what the Hell, 
it would explain some things:

The first printing of T4 was intended for experienced Traveller players.  
Thus, the previously-noted lack of information on the back cover, the 
numerous errors, etc.  They just weren't that concerned about making it 
perfect.  Get something out there - something usable.  Make a small print 
run, and sell them out to the hard-core Traveller gamers.  Get feedback 
from them, in the mean-time producing all the supplementary material 
necessary for new gamers.  In January of 1996, release the new T4, 
error-free (thanks to all the feedback from the hard-core gamers).  By then, 
the background, etc. supplements are available.  At that time, produce 
the books in LARGE quantity, and get them into every store.  That is 
when IG expects to sell to neophytes - not now.

As I said, it is probably completely wrong.  But, it _does_ explain 
things.  Right now, IG really doesn't have a product that is useful to 
new gamers and those unfamiliar with Traveller.  They won't have that 
until all of this year's supplements are out, and the revised T4 is 
available.  

If you think this is an evil plan, blame it on the venture capitalists 
who we assume must be funding IG.  They were not willing to provide 
enough capital to allow IG to wait until all those supplements were ready 
to go to press, so IG had to get things out quickly - even if that meant 
the playability would suffer in the short term.  In the long term, 
everything will be OK - especially since relatively few gamers will have 
even heard of the new T4 by January (thus, few will know of the 
error-riden nature of the original version).

Anyway...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest          Saturday, 5 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 495

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Dave's TNE
         2. Cleon and the Marches
         3. Trip to the store! (Longish Listing)
         4. Unknown worlds, inconsistancies
         5. Help with the animals!
         6. Re: Cleon and the Marches
         7. Sorry
         8. Re: Fw: More thoughts about Speedy Missiles
         9. Re: Various subjects, long, somewhat rantish.
        10. Re: Traveller gender issues (long)
        11. Re: Yet another new character career : The journalist
        12. Re: My Year 0 Campaign
        13. Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues (Long)
        14. Re: Various subjects, long, somewhat rantish.
        15. Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 96 19:19:03 UT
Subject: Dave's TNE

David J. Golden said:
>        I actually managed to explain it to my satisfaction as an engineer
>and computer science grad student; I'm probably one of the three people in
>the world who wound up (eventually) liking the TNE setting...

Here is an illustration of my viewpoint, and I am sure that most people would 
share it when it comes to their likes/dislikes of various Traveller versions.

I like spaghetti.  It is my favorite food, a well made plate of spaghetti can 
drive my saliva glands into a state of sheer ecstacy...    but...

I like it the way my *dad* makes it.  Anything else is pasta blasphemy!  I 
have taught my wife how to make it that way, and now she makes it perfectly!  
If you ever invite me over to your house for dinner, DON'T make spaghetti.  
You wouldn't get it right (lasagna woud be nice, though).  I know, you think 
that you know how to make a pretty tasty batch of spaghetti, but forget it...  
it just wouldn't compare -- you would spoil it by adding your own favorite 
spice or you wouldn't add enough meat or something.

Chances are, if you came over to my house and I made the perfect spaghetti for 
you -- you'd probably think it was okay, but nothing to write home about.  As 
far as I am concerned, you don't know how to judge good spaghetti, but that 
doesn't matter, because I will keep on eating it the way I like it.

It is not a matter of "Well, Boyd is just USED to that kind of cooking."  But, 
of "Boyd LOVES that kind of cooking."  Is there a "right" way to make 
spaghetti?  Well, if I am going to eat it, there is.  Do I know that other 
people like wierd kinds of spaghetti?  Yes I do, bless their hearts.  ;-)>

I like Classic Traveller for the *flavor*.  If you think it's bland, well, 
pour some Zhodani invasion, rebellion or virus on it, but when you come to my 
house -- were having it the way I like it.

I gotta go now...   I'm hungry.
					---Boyd

------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 15:21:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Cleon and the Marches

Hi.

Mr. Zhodani said:

>From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
>Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:53:16 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Re: Meet Mr. Zhodani

[...]
>Anyways, I don't think Cleon "pushed" towards the marches that much at all.
>He was probably more interested in staying in the denser parts of the 
>galaxy, reclaiming old  Imperial turf. Mucho easier than breaking
>new sod out in the boonies.

That may be. But the 3I /did/ reach Mora 60 years after its founding. If
there was no push, then there must have be some pull. Cleon's son, Cleon
the Weak may very well have personally set foot in the Marches, since he spent
the years after his abdication on the frontier.

(Very good point you made about the Vargr and Vilani, BTW.)

>> For an interesting twist very relevent to this discussion, take a look
>> at the Library Data in T4. Look up "Zhodani"...

>Hm. I'll have to get my copy of T4 first. However, being in T4 doesn't
>mean that it's common or even uncommon knowledge in the new Imperium.
>i.e. jump-6 gets mentioned too.

Point well taken. But I strongly suspect that the "Library Data" section
was geared towards new players in the Milieu 0 campaign. This entry
especially, since it points out that the precise location of the Zhodani
Consolate is "not known." That would surely make the setting pretty
early in the empire's history (the first war with the Zhodani was fought
by the 500's.)

- -Rob (Mr. Ancient)


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 14:48:12 -0500
Subject: Trip to the store! (Longish Listing)

Well, I went to the store, and I wrote down all of the stuff they had for
Trav for sale Except the FASA and Judges Guild stuff.  For those of you who
sent me a note requesting FASA stuff, they didn't have anything you were
looking for.  Now the rest of the stuff, GDW and DGP is listed below.  If
anyone see's something they want send me a note with your address so I can
figure what the postage will be and I will let you know about how I work the
ordering.

Also, some of you have given me advice on what to pick up.  Well, the stuff
I ALREADY OWN is preceeded with a '*' (star) so, for the other stuff, anyone
that wants to advise me on what to get, I will be listening.  Thanks

Here's the list:

CT:
 Supplement 2: Animal Encounters           $15.00
 Book 0: Introduction to Traveller         $15.00
 Book 6: Scouts                            $15.00
*Adventure  2: Research Station Gamma      $15.00
 Adventure  4: Leviathan                   $15.00
 Adventure  6: Expidition to Zodane        $15.00
 Adventure  9: Nomads of the World Ocean   $15.00
 Adventure 10: Safari Ship                 $15.00
 Adventure 11: Murder on Arcturus Station  $15.00
 Doub.Adv. 2: Across the Bright Face       $15.00
 Doub.Adv. 3: Argon Gambit                 $15.00
 Doub.Adv. 4: Marooned Alone               $15.00
 Doub.Adv. 5: Chamax Plague                $15.00
 Doub.Adv. 6: Night of Conquest            $15.00

MT:
*Player's Handbook                         $15.00
*Imperial Encyclopedia                     $15.00
*Boxed Set (includes above and Ref's
                                Handbook)  $50.00
*Referee's Companion                       $15.00
*Rebellion Sourcebook                      $15.00
 Assignment Vigilante                      $10.00
 Astrogator's Guide to Diaspora Sector     $10.00
 Traveller Digest #4                       $15.00
 Traveller Digest #19                      $15.00

TNE:
*TNE Main Book                             $33.00
*Delux Set (Main book, FF&S, Other)        $55.00
*Survival Margin                           $15.00
*Smash & Grab                              $20.00
*Player Forms                              $10.00
*Referee's Screens                         $10.00
*Rattle Rider                              $35.00
*RC Equipment Guide                        $25.00
*World Tamers Handbook                     $20.00
*Personalities of the RC                   $15.00
*Aliens of the Rim(Hiver & Ithklur)        $20.00
*To Dream of Chaos (novel)                 $ 7.00
*Death of Wisdom (novel)                   $ 7.00


Paul  {tiger}			http://www.datasync.com/~tiger

AKA -  Lt.(jg)  Roger Camp,  Engineering assistant, USS Saratoga
       Dr. Nathan Shukii,  Imperial Navy, Ret. (Skyrunner PBeM)
       Miller Philibus, Director, BARD Archives (Reformation Coalition)
       Game Master - Sylean Federation Group PBeM


------------------------------

From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 16:07:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Unknown worlds, inconsistancies

Hi.

There have been some complaints on this list recently about the fact
that the worlds on the rimward edge of the Core subsector map have not
been detailed. I just want to point out a thing or two which may go a
litte way toward explaining any apparent "inconsistancies."

1)	The text explicitly states that there has been no "FORMAL"
contact with these worlds for over 200 years. This is not such an
unusual thing. Japan had no FORMAL contact with the rest of the world
for quite a while. This was not because of some technological or
geographic limitation; it was a political decision by the Japanese
government.

I believe it was true until the last few years that the US had no formal
contact with Vietnam. (Or partly true. "Formal" is sufficiently vague
a word to allow for many interpretations.)

2)	In no place does T4 state that the IISS has no knowledge
whatsoever of these worlds. Just that the players don't.

3)	All of the worlds in Core are on a jump-1 main with Sylea EXCEPT
for these "mystery worlds." You need jump-2 to reach any of them. In a
lower tech Imperium dominated by jump-1 ships, these worlds are located
in a pretty serious backwater. This could make them the equivalent of
Pitcairn Island from a Sylean's point of view.

	-	-	-

All in all, I'd say that T4 is following the grand Travller tradition of
giving you just enough information to get you wondering about things,
exploring things, and thinking things through. The mysteries get solved
in later products. (Which can be exciting, but it can sometimes take
some of the fun away. Adventure 12 sure did make my players stop
wondering about the Ancients!)

All this talk about IG putting out an inconsistent product seems a
little premature to me. It's Marc Miller's universe; he's an intelligent
and thoughtful guy. Let's wait to hear him out before we knock his work
(or anyone else's). And cheer up! It's almost certainly NOT going to be as
bad as you fear!

(But, remember what Marc's Traveller philosophy is: it's just as certainly
NOT going to be what you would expect!)

- -Rob


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 16:12:02 -0700
Subject: Help with the animals!

A few days ago I saw a post asking if anyone knew how to determine the 
attack number for animals under the T4 rules.  I've been watching to see 
if anyone could answer--I sure can't find it in the book.  I've been 
looking for a table like in TNE.

Do any of you know the answer?  I'm running a game tomorrow with a 
wilderness encounter, and since I've been playing traveller since '82, 
I'm going to feel really stupid if I skipped over it in the book.

Thanks!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 16:53:10 -0700
Subject: Re: Cleon and the Marches

Robert Flammang wrote:
> 
> Hi.
> 
> Mr. Zhodani said:
> 
> >From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
> >Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:53:16 -0400 (EDT)
> >Subject: Re: Meet Mr. Zhodani
> 
> [...]
> >Anyways, I don't think Cleon "pushed" towards the marches that much at all.
> >He was probably more interested in staying in the denser parts of the
> >galaxy, reclaiming old  Imperial turf. Mucho easier than breaking
> >new sod out in the boonies.
> 
> That may be. But the 3I /did/ reach Mora 60 years after its founding. If
> there was no push, then there must have be some pull. Cleon's son, Cleon
> the Weak may very well have personally set foot in the Marches, since he spent
> the years after his abdication on the frontier.
> 
> (Very good point you made about the Vargr and Vilani, BTW.)

I've read somewhere over the years that Cleon was half vilani and half 
solomani.  I think his mother was solomani since he was the founder of 
the Zhunastu Dynasty.  If memory serves, this was one of his attributes 
that made him an attractive leader to consolodate the Sylean Federation 
and found the 3I.  

The solomani are adventurers reaching out into space because it is 
there--everyone else be damned.  This spirit in the people was one of the 
main factors that allowed them to conquer the vilani when they ran into 
them.  

I've also read somewhere that the solomani founded the scout service at 
the start of the 3I.  The solomani are explorers while the vilani are 
sedentary and jealous with their technology.  As Cleon started the 
3I, the solomani had considerable political power--a left over from 
the Rule of Man.  This is why the Marches were first explored with the 
landing on Mora in 60.  The solomani settled over 75% of the Marches.  
Look at the Sword Worlds--90% solomani.

So, I agree, Cleon was concerned in the early years with consoldating the 
denser area around him and reclaiming Imperial space, but he also had a 
focus on expansion.  He was, after all, half solomani.  

We hit the Marches in 60 and spread like wild fire.  Refer to your 
Zhodani alien module.  The first contact the zho's had with Imperial 
traders was in 50.  This must have been an uneasy time with only 
occasional contact betweeen the two races for 500 years or so.  Solid 
contact with the expanding 3I came during the Imperium's 6th century of 
existence, and the First Frontier War followed almost immediately in 589. 

Since then, its been constant conflict with the zho's until the 1200's 
when the Virus banded the Regency and the zho's together. 

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: Peter Miller <PeterMiller@youngmerlin.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 14:22:51 -0800
Subject: Sorry

Hi      

Sorry, I accidently sent my bids for the Auction to the list :(  Sorry.


_______________________________Peter John Miller
"Touch 'em all Joe, you'll never hit a bigger home run in your life!"
            - Tom Cheek, 1993 World Series
- ------------------------------------------------
Traveller, Prime Directive, AD&D, all, on Peter's World
       http://www.dragonfire.net/~pm/


------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 16:28:04 -0700
Subject: Re: Fw: More thoughts about Speedy Missiles

Phillip McGregor wrote:
> 
> The problem is, of course, that all missiles in Traveller are assumed to
> be *one ton*. A 100-ton Bay contains 100 missiles. That's always been the
> assumption.

Actually, I assumed they were half a ton each with the other half ton
being
used for internal transport, storage, and arming mechanisms.  FF&S seems
to
support this (another assumption of mine based on the actual volume for
standard missiles as stated in the FF&S errata sheet).

> Why not a 5-ton or 10-ton missile? That way you could concievably have
> missiles with enough fuel to be a (for example - and, no, I haven't worked
> this out yet!) 10 ton 48G turn missile (i.e. 48G1, 24G2, 12G4 6G8 etc.).

I have worked it out and you're right. I've designed a "Banshee"-class
missile
which volumes out at 13.97 cu.m. with a weight of 17.05 mtons. Built at
TL17,
it can pull *21Gs* constant for 2.24 hours (four combat turns in BL) and
engage
a target at an effective range of 60000km (2 hexes). A host of these
things
blew into oblivion a 5000 disp. ton Midu Agashaam-class destroyer in 1
combat
turn without it getting off a single shot...the launching ship displaced
slightly less than *500* tons.
 
> For really large ships you could have larger missiles - perhaps a 100 ton
> sensor drone armed with 1 ton missiles <snip>

Or, better yet, how about dumping submunitions canisters out of a
1000-ton
merchant's cargo holds to give attacking pirates a very bad day? With
FF&S,
this was all possible; hopefully, the Starship book (or future
supplement)
will allow for this.

To paraphrase Gen. G.S. Patton, 
"Superior firepower is the key to successful negotiations."

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 16:36:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Various subjects, long, somewhat rantish.

David J. Golden wrote:
> <snip> I'm probably one of the three people in the world who wound up
> (eventually) liking the TNE setting...

Make that one of four though I'm partial to the Regency side of TNE.
Of course, now I'll never find out what was behind the Zho exodus.
Darn it!

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 11:42:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller gender issues (long)

Thanasis Kinias wrote:

Tasty food for thought, Thanasis. Good post!

> 
> I would like to address four issues regarding gender:
> 
> 1.  My experience with female players has been discouraging.  Like most,
> my early groups (primary/secondary school) were exclusively male and
> rather testosterone-addled.  University and later groups were more often
> mixed, though unfortunately the typical female player was someone's
> girlfriend, and disappeared when the relationship ended. The big problem
> was when the GM's girlfriend joined the game, as most GMs were unable to
> treat their lovers impartially (guess who got all the nifty gizmos and
> always got to make the big kill?).  I would dearly like to see more
> independent female gamers, but sometimes I despair.

I've noted this at the Grapevine (the local comic/game/etc emporium). The under-18 game 
groups seem to be all-male and suffer from a near-fatal case of testosterone overload. 
When one of them wants to play in _my_ game (we have a shortage of older players 
locally), I quickly set him straight. The GM's girlfriend issue is what Paul Lucas calls 
the Snooky-Wookums Syndrome. I used to GM for my ex-wife, who expected preferential 
treatment from me . . . and I didn't give in! She stopped playing, but I count that as 
her loss, not mine ;)

> 
> 2.  Cross-gender RPing I have observed was pretty bad.  Women playing men
> tended to play stereotypical men, scratching, belching, bull-headed, etc.
> Men playing women were worse, tending to act like drag queens and wanting
> to sleep with _every_ man that came along.  Because of this, I have a
> blanket prohibition against playing a character of another gender in my
> games, unless I feel the player is exceptional.

My few female players were not this obnoxiously male in character . . . but the guys who 
played women seemed to have problems dealing with sexuality. Funny, but my female NPCs 
_aren't_ pushovers for the blandishments of any male -- PC or NPC -- that comes along! 
In my C-punk game, I gave each woman in the band a "type," a kind of guy who appealed to 
her, based on the woman's own personality. Moonsinger -- the lead singer and NewAge 
crystal-cruncher -- yearned for a guy with a strong spiritual center to complement her 
own spirituality and offset her own moodiness. The right character never entered the 
game. Athena, the martial-artist drummer, liked big, tough lifeguard types. One of the 
party's Solos -- a former SEAL -- proved to be her match.

> 
> 3.  I think that the treatment of women in the Traveller universe should
> be quite varied.  In my (New Era) pocket empire, the different worlds
> treat this differently.  One world, Avsten, is a very "advanced" in this
> regard, and asserts absolute equality between the sexes.  Another, Savria,
> has lived with a Droyne population for millenia, and has adopted a similar
> caste system of alpha (breeding) males, beta (non-breeding) males, and
> females, and rigidly assigns roles to each.  Novomir, the capital,
> survived a hellish civil war after the Collapse and is military-dominated;
> thus, women tend to be less empowered than in early 21st-century Terran
> "Western" culture.  However, military roles that do not require physical
> strength (interceptor pilot, intel, etc.) find women, and noble women
> excercise great "behind-the-scenes" power.  There is much room for
> variation among 10,000 worlds.

My view -- that gender equality is a prerequisite to a hopeful future -- is not 
necessarily the view  held on the 9,978 _other_ worlds that belong to the RC. Granted, 
the equality-in-imagery is also a protective marketing point in the current political 
climate. Inequality is NOT "PC."

> 
> 4.  A potentially-dangerous topic is character stats for female humans.
> No system I have played realistically portrays the physiological
> differences between men and women.  This is, I believe, due to a desire
> not to depict women as inferior.  However, women's lack of the physical
> strength of men (in general) is obvious and should ideally be modelled.
> In Rolemaster I devised a house rule that women would be penalised in
> strength and would get bonuses in constitution and empathy.  I haven't
> settled on a system for Trav yet.  Any suggestions, flames, comments?

Be prepared to don those Nomex undershorts, Thanasis, but rest assured that I'm not 
going to be the one spraying the napalm or tossing the WP grenades at this post. 
Consider this: RPG character-generation systems are designed to generate *exceptional* 
human beings. It is axiomatic that the dramatic "stars" of the larger-than-life dramas 
that are RPGs be themselves larger than life. Exceptional men *and* women. Since PCs -- 
male and female -- are, by definition, _exceptional_ examples of humanity, I don't think 
that there's a real need to vary the stats for the sexes.

Once again, thanks for a tasty post!

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 13:45:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Yet another new character career : The journalist

galliand@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Hi.  I'm usually a lurker, so this is my first time providing something
> substantive here.  I've developed a new career for the journalist.  I
> never saw one in any of the other version (unless I just completely
> blocked it out) and thought it would be quite interesting.  You can get a
> copy of it from

Hey, I liked this career, Scott. Nice job!
> 
> http://members.aol.com/sgalli5794/traveller/careers/Reporter.html
> 
> Sorry, but it is in a table format.  I wanted it to mirror that of the
> form in the book as close as possible.  I'll try to post a copy later
> here to the list.
> 
> I hope you find it useful.

I'm going to make use of it. My noble retinue _needs_ an annoying, reoccuring tabloid 
reporter. I'm thinking of a tabloid version of Lois Lane . . . .

As far as the "award" is concerned, there are two mentioned in books published by GDW 
(trying to stay away from the "c" word). One -- in Survival Margain -- is a TAS award 
that sends the reporter on a expense-paid trip in the Marches; and the reporter agrees 
to write a feature for the JTAS (my copy is not close at hand . . .). Two, in Challenge, 
is mention of a RC reporter who recieved the "Nimban Palm" for excellence in Journalism 
for coverage of the legendary Venzia Raid.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 13:31:36 -0700
Subject: Re: My Year 0 Campaign

Susan M. Shock wrote:
> 
> I will put up my hand and say that I am running a Year 0 campaign. In fact,
> I'm running it tonight. I have the feeling that I will shortly be losing a
> player though; she finds science-fiction RPG's boring EXCEPT for Star Wars.
> The others seem to want to stick with Traveller, although about half of them
> prefer the Reformation Coalition setting. So, I'll be running a T4 version
> of my TNE campaign AS WELL AS
> Year 0. 

Keep us posted on this, Allen. I'd be interested in seeing how you manage to pull off T4 
in the RC.


> I have really interesting characters in the Year 0 game, and I'd
> hate to lose it.
>         In my campaign, the characters joined the Scouts, who offered to buy
> their ship when they were about to lose it to the bank, and to give it to
> them at the end of their four-year hitch. Their job is to explore all those
> unexplored worlds in the Core Subsector.

I like your campaign premise. Mine was shaped by circumstances. It started out as a 
"one-on-one" game (one player, me as GM), and the character was a noble, so I decided to 
do the noble diplo-dink/espionage/courier thing . . . now I have five players, all of 
them crew for the noble's yacht or retainers. To give the player an experienced 
Traveller-universe sage, I created an NPC aide.

So far, the noble has fought rapier duels, formented a rebellion by assassinating a 
planetary ruler (this will have some *interesting* consequences as the business 
interests behind the former ruler pursue the party across the subsector and strive to 
create political probs for the noble at home . . .), and is in the middle of a web of 
industrial espionage (the noble doesn't yet know that the victim of the ind-esp is the 
same  megacorp that propped up the former planetary ruler . . .) and a frontier naval 
war with the Despot of Ardis.

> (I am accepting the IG assertion
> that the Imperium consists of about 20 worlds in Year 0. I think it was DGP
> that said it was a whole sector-I'd have to check the library data from CT
> on that. Well, now it ISN'T a whole sector. That's better for my campaign
> anyway.) So far they've been spending most of their time in skirmishes with
> the Pirates of the New Dawn.

GREAT idea! My own pirates are privateers for Ardis, a world run by a dictator with 
delusions of grandeur and morality. The Despot is the kind of a man who would kidnap a 
random citizen off the street and personally knife him to death just to see if his blade 
is sharp. Most of the privateers would turn against him if not for the effectiveness of 
the Despot's secret police or for their hatred of the Imperium.

>         I obviously will find it somewhat easier to expand on the setting
> once First Survey and Mileau 0 are out. But I don't feel like waiting that
> long to run my game.

Yep.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 13:53:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues (Long)

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 
> Rich Ostorero said:
> 
> >That _is_ a problem; I'm forever teaching 'Trav 101' to newcomers. I usually
> >hand them
> >an Imperial Encyclopedia and try to answer their questions as best as I can.

I have a book called _The MegaTraveller Encyclopedia_ that is basically a compilation of 
library data. I also use the Rebellion Sourcebook.
> >
> 
> I wish I could see a copy of it, I've heard lots about it but have never seen
> one...  nor anything else from that company... as far as I know.  Heard
> someone mention that it was same as the CT Library Data books, izzat true?

I think so. . . .


> 
> But I thought the Kinuner wasn't produced until a few centuries later?

The _Solee_ in the New Era have _Kinunirs_. The Despot of Ardis has his privateers, none 
of which are over 1000 tons (I like keeping my naval combatants smallish; not even a 
Sylean carrier is over 1000 tons in my game)
> 
> >I've got one small pocket empire set up in the trailing main of Core Sector
> -- a >single
> >world (Ardis, a Tech 12 world with a charismatic dictatorship) has been
> hiring
> >privateers to raid Sylean shipping as a prelude to a campaign of conquest.
> >Look at where
> >the trailing naval bases are in IG's Core subsector; they are there to
> protect >the coreward segment of the main.
> 
> Wish I could join in, what's your 10-20?

Lodi, California. Home of Tokaj Esperance grapes (Fans of _AHL_ may remember this . . .) 
and lotsa rednecks.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 14:11:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Various subjects, long, somewhat rantish.

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
> >Besides how many of you 'Holy Canonists' out
> >there think Virus is NOT a heresy? Show of hands please?...

Virus is real; virus kills. ;)
> 
>         I actually managed to explain it to my satisfaction as an engineer
> and computer science grad student; I'm probably one of the three people in
> the world who wound up (eventually) liking the TNE setting...

I'm one of them, Dave ;)

I loved the RC setting from the moment I read _Survival Margain_. There are, to my mind, 
few things more compelling than _building_ the future, a future where the acts --or 
non-acts -- of an intrepid few _matter_. After several years of remitting darkness in 
the gaming hobby -- typified by Vampire and Cyberpunk -- I was happy to see a game that 
rejected the darkness in favor of a challenging, but hopeful, vision of the future. 

I'd sure like to see what happens next with the Solee, with Maggart's visit to 
Oriflamme, and all the other stuff that came up in CINet. . . .The Regency can 'keep the 
flame'; the RC is building its own, improved, torch to light the way for humanity.

"Every life matters." -- Lt.Col. Wu Li, RCMC, callsign 'Kung Fu'

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com


------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 13:04:08 -0700
Subject: Re: T4 Mileu 0 Campaign

Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> >Just out of curiosity...hands up everyone who's running a Milleu 0 campaing.

Well, I am. What I've decided to do is to adapt my M0 game to what IG has so far 
provided in T4. I assume that not every world on the Core Subsector map is a member of 
the Federation-cum-Imperium. There are several worlds out in Core Subsector -- notably 
Ardis -- that has the population, attitude (based on Gov type and law level) and tech 
base to be a royal pain in the powerplant to the Federation. There is also no Imperial 
Naval base there, and it's a TL12 world . . . so I assume that Ardis is to the 
Federation/Imperium what the Solee are for the RC -- an stumbling block, an early 
challenge. The Despot of Ardis (the planetary dictator) dreams of dominating the Syleans 
and is currently using "privateers" and false-flag naval units to disrupt Sylean 
shipping. 
> 
> Well, I am, but as I get into it, I am more and more discouraged with the
> editing of the book.  Granted, my minor in college was Tech Writing, and it
> is something of a pet peeve of mine, but I agree with whoever said earlier
> that coming out with a poorly done product just to meet a deadline is a bad
> move, it is better to not even mention a deadline.

Gotta agree here.
> 
> Anyway, I don't mind not a lot of mileau stuff in the main book, but the
> erros are killing me.  The errors in the weapons tables and the written
> weapons section are pretty bad.
> 
> I don't want to be perceived as a nay-sayer, but I really have doubts about
> the ability of any company to survive with continual errors like the ones in
> T4.  They may not seem major to many of you, but I am not a real experienced
> ref/player, and it is difficult to understand much of the stuff without the
> years of CT experience. 

>From this point of view, Paul, what you say makes sense . . . but I'm on the other end 
of the spectrum in terms of experience, and I'm not afraid to improvise _rapidly_ inn 
the course of the game.

> I don't advocate a more complex system like TNE,

TNE? Complex? I found TNE _easy_ to run! ;)

> but I do want a system that I can understand.

Don't we all??


- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #495
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Traveller-digest          Saturday, 5 October 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 496

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: I've been thinking about novels again.
         2. Re: Kinunirs
         3. Re: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no
         4. Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs
         5. Re: Help with the animals!
         6. Re: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no
         7. Re: [T96#488] Freelance Traveller
         8. Re: Dave's TNE
         9. Re: How 'bout Books of the New Sun?
        10. Re: Unknown worlds, inconsistancies
        11. T4 "Core" subsector data file available
        12. Traveller Auction
        13. Re: Help with the animals!
        14. Re: T4 Quality Control
        15. (assorted)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 11:52:52 -0700
Subject: Re: I've been thinking about novels again.

Joe Block wrote:
> 
> My list of 10 literary sources for Traveller background.
> 
> 1) _Mote in God's Eye_, by Jerry Pournelle.  It is the source of the
> Langston Field (aka Black Globe), after all.

Have you read _The Gripping Hand_ -- the sequeal to _Mote_? Also GREAT!
> 
> 2) The John Christian Falkenberg series, by Jerry Pournelle (and the S.M.
> Stirling stuff in the same timeline)

Low-tech (TL7-8) warfare with a minimum of higher-tech goodies tossed in. Ave Imperator!
> 
> 3) The Honor Harrington series of novels - knock down the accelerations to
> trav standards and they're an excellent rendition of space warfare.

I _love_ these books! Honor is a great motivation for me to create realistic NPCs. The 
space-combat scenes are great, too.

> 
> 4) The Miles Vorkosigan series by Lois McMaster Bujold
> 
> 5) _Hammer's Slammers_, by David Drake

Very Travelleresque. 

> 
> 6) _Starship Troopers_ and _Moon is a Harsh Mistress_, by Heinlein

The former was one of the most significant books I've ever read; it literally changed my 
life. The latter didn't influence me nearly as much, but it is still an excellent read.

> 
> 7) The Flandry series.
> 
> 8) _The Long Run_, by Daniel Keyes Moran
> 
> 9) The Retief series, by Laumer.
> 
> 10) Various stuff by Poul Anderson, Jerry Pournelle, Isaac Asimov, Andre
> Norton,  Robert Heinlein.
> 

Of the others, I've not read them. Bet I will soon ;)

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 12:31:32 -0700
Subject: Re: Kinunirs

Thanasis Kinias wrote:
> 
> Boyd Schnieder wrote:
> >
> > Rich Ostorero said:
> >
> > . . .
> >
> > >In my Year 0 game, there are other pocket empires thinking the same
> > >thing as the Syleans are thinking -- just like in the RC game I ran
> > >there was the Solee with their Starburst-class CL as well as their
> > >relic Kinunirs -- all of
> >
> > But I thought the Kinuner wasn't produced until a few centuries later?
> > . . .
> 
> IIRC, the _Kinunir_s were built in the eleventh century (pre-Civil War).
> I'm sure I remember a note that only 20 were built and all served in the
> Marches (in CT).  _The Regency Sourcebook_ says they were returned to
> production during the Final War.  Is it likely to find them in the former
> Solomani space (e.g. RC)?

I cite as my authority the novel _To Dream of Chaos_; the Solee had a number of them in 
the book. 

Might these relics be prizes captured by the Solomani during their offensive from the 
Rim?

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 11:04:23 -0700
Subject: Re: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> > From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
> > Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 11:55:35 -0700
> > Subject: Re: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.  Want,...Well...
> 
> > I feel a rant coming on . . .
> >
> > The human race needs all of it's members -- no matter how they're plumbed OR
> > wired -- to struggle for the future.
> 
>         WHOO WHOO YEAH (sounds of a large crowd cheering)!!!
> 
>         Well said, Rich!

<<blush>>

> 
>         On the subject of having women game with us, I started when I was in
> college (no, not a late bloomer, it's just that D&D and Traveller
> didn't come out till then!)

Same here. I was in the Navy in the mid-late 70s. As I hailed from a then-backwater 
Central Valley town (Modesto, which is no longer a sleepy backwater) I didn't even _see_ 
D&D until I went into the Navy. I didn't see Traveller until a little later.

>  and our groups always seemed to end up
> about 50:50...in fact three marriages came out of that original bunch
> I started with (all still together, all still gaming...hmmmdo I sense
> a correlation?) so there never was too much stereotyping.

That's GREAT to hear! That's beating the odds, as I well-know. 


> 
>         My wife plays, and she doesn't need any 'snooky-wookums',
> stuff...in fact she tend's to be more along the lines of Ripley
> (Aliens) crossed with Arnie (anything!). 

Cool combo, Bruce!

> She plays MOM, who protects
> and defends the group, (even when we don't want to be;-) and
> basically carries big guns, lots of big guns.  Woe betide the people who cross any of
> us...her last Traveller character like that was a retired Colonel in the
> Marine commandos, who had lots of contacts.

The last woman who played in any of my games (it was my personal _GURPS Space_ 
universe, "Swords and Blasters," my ode to 1930s sf space-opera), she played a Felinoid 
sneak-thief. Yes, the aliens were modern Americans in cheesy rubber costumes -- Canoids 
and Feliniods that got along like cats and dogs, the Canoids were loyal and the 
Felinoids were mysterious and sneaky, etc, *but it was fun*! She was the wife of one of 
my Cyberpunk players -- the five-fem rocker game. She played a technoid character in 
that game. She left my games when her husband was transferred by the USAF.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 12:05:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs

Pete Blake wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> > Hmmm . . . I thought we Yanks had a monopoly on the social-acceptance
> > problems. How widesread is this phenomenon in Canada, the UK and
> > Australia?
> 
> Interesting call this.  The few people I speak to about it usually think
> its a bit childish to be "playing games" at my age (28).  My mum

The usual Stage One response. My parents think this hobby is some kind of evil 
mind-control cult, and I'm 37. 

> certainly does :-).  However, if I ever manage to convince them to come
> over and sit down and watch a game, then they quickly see the fun in it
> Some say they'd like to try, others are not so interested.  I guess
> that's normal.

I always thought the UK was more enlightened than that, Pete. 

> 
> As a rule I try not to advertise the fact that I'm an RPGer - I think
> over here it has a bit of a 'geek' image - and given that I also program
> computers for a living I can't win :-). 

In this rednecked, fundimentalist-Christian dominated community, it is not _physically 
safe_ to advertise that you play RPGs, practice alternative spirituality or are 
otherwise "wierd." The Friendly Local Game Store has been _picketed_ by the local Fundie 
Christians as a source of those _evil_, devil-games.

> So I stick to talking about my
> other hobbies:  karate, rugby and surfing - somehow the response is
> always better :-)

I always say that my hobbies are "SF, military science, military history, and 
computers." The synrgy is obvious to those in the know, but is not to the local 
mundanes.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 16:53:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Help with the animals!

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> A few days ago I saw a post asking if anyone knew how to determine the
> attack number for animals under the T4 rules.  I've been watching to see
> if anyone could answer--I sure can't find it in the book.  I've been
> looking for a table like in TNE.
> 
> Do any of you know the answer?  I'm running a game tomorrow with a
> wilderness encounter, and since I've been playing traveller since '82,
> I'm going to feel really stupid if I skipped over it in the book.
> 

I can't find a "skill level" either. My only suggestion is fake it with
a target number of 8. I believe this was the number from the Classic
Traveller Animals supplement and the T4 animal concepts seem
to have been from it.
pulled mostly

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 11:04:23 -0700
Subject: Re: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> > From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
> > Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 11:55:35 -0700
> > Subject: Re: gratituous babes in skintight spacesuits? Need, no.  Want,...Well...
> 
> > I feel a rant coming on . . .
> >
> > The human race needs all of it's members -- no matter how they're plumbed OR
> > wired -- to struggle for the future.
> 
>         WHOO WHOO YEAH (sounds of a large crowd cheering)!!!
> 
>         Well said, Rich!

<<blush>>

> 
>         On the subject of having women game with us, I started when I was in
> college (no, not a late bloomer, it's just that D&D and Traveller
> didn't come out till then!)

Same here. I was in the Navy in the mid-late 70s. As I hailed from a then-backwater 
Central Valley town (Modesto, which is no longer a sleepy backwater) I didn't even _see_ 
D&D until I went into the Navy. I didn't see Traveller until a little later.

>  and our groups always seemed to end up
> about 50:50...in fact three marriages came out of that original bunch
> I started with (all still together, all still gaming...hmmmdo I sense
> a correlation?) so there never was too much stereotyping.

That's GREAT to hear! That's beating the odds, as I well-know. 


> 
>         My wife plays, and she doesn't need any 'snooky-wookums',
> stuff...in fact she tend's to be more along the lines of Ripley
> (Aliens) crossed with Arnie (anything!). 

Cool combo, Bruce!

> She plays MOM, who protects
> and defends the group, (even when we don't want to be;-) and
> basically carries big guns, lots of big guns.  Woe betide the people who cross any of
> us...her last Traveller character like that was a retired Colonel in the
> Marine commandos, who had lots of contacts.

The last woman who played in any of my games (it was my personal _GURPS Space_ 
universe, "Swords and Blasters," my ode to 1930s sf space-opera), she played a Felinoid 
sneak-thief. Yes, the aliens were modern Americans in cheesy rubber costumes -- Canoids 
and Feliniods that got along like cats and dogs, the Canoids were loyal and the 
Felinoids were mysterious and sneaky, etc, *but it was fun*! She was the wife of one of 
my Cyberpunk players -- the five-fem rocker game. She played a technoid character in 
that game. She left my games when her husband was transferred by the USAF.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 96 18:41:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#488] Freelance Traveller

T::>JEFF ZEITLIN wrote:
 ::>>
 ::>>  Just to clarify the Freelance Traveller policy at present:

T::>Could you also clarify what and where Freelance Traveller is? I admit to
 ::>being unfamiliar with it but it sounds very interesting.

 Freelance Traveller is yet another permutation on the idea of a
 "Webzine", a "Fanzine", and a resource site.  In this case, the
 focus is (obviously) the Traveller game line, including
 versions from the now-defunct Game Designers' Workshop
 (although I expect to end up with a pronounced emphasis on the
 new Imperium Games/FarFuture release). Rather than having
 "issues" like other 'zines, it will be a single continuously
 updated (meaning irregularly - when I have both material and
 time) site.  The "Title page" and table of contents can be
 found by pointing a browser (preferably Netscape or Internet
 Explorer - table capability is sort of required, so I don't
 think Lynx can handle it) to
 http://www.dragonfire.net/~FreelanceTraveller/ - everything
 will be a link off this page.  Do please consider writing for
 us, too; we have submissions guidelines available. I'm hoping
 to have a chance this weekend to update them; it looks very
 much like I can now take submissions via ftp, which means that
 part of what we publish can be game assist software.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ OLXWin 1.00b ~ Insufficient safeguards built in.


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 17:53:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Dave's TNE

On Sat, 5 Oct 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

[Boyd's soon-to-be-famous Spaghetti metaphore snipped for brevity]

> I like Classic Traveller for the *flavor*.  If you think it's bland, well, 
> pour some Zhodani invasion, rebellion or virus on it, but when you come to my 
> house -- were having it the way I like it.

Brovo, Boyd!  Nice job on the metaphore.  

I guess the goal for IG should be to produce a version of Traveller that 
is palatable to the majority of Traveller players (and prospective 
Traveller players - aye, there's the tricky part), rather than pandering 
to any of us here online.  

I hear some of you gasping at this blasphemy, but you have to admit that 
we're a pretty small part of the /current/ Traveller market - let alone 
the /future/ Traveller market (if it gets the success it deserves).  

I've liked Marc Miller's vision of Traveller from the first time I 
encountered CT.  I'm willing to give up my own personal vision of 
Traveller as far as IG-published product goes, in favor of his vision.  

After all, I can meld T4 to whatever I desire in a game.  This won't be 
true for the massive amount of new converts Traveller needs in order to 
survive.  I think Marc and IG have the right idea of what to provide for 
new gamers - that is, once the bugs are worked out (and the necessary 
supplementary material is on the shelves of game stores).
 

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "athol-brose" <cinnamon@one.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 18:49:07 -0400
Subject: Re: How 'bout Books of the New Sun?

Jeffrey Miller said (about the Books of the New Sun):
> These were great reads from the perspective of a person in a once
> technologically great, starfaring reality who is now living the wandering
life
> of a Torturer for Hire. Really great stuff. My highest rating, actually. 
> MANY MANY great ideas for the TNE TEDID (Tech Elevated Dictatorship In
Decay)
> vein...

Also note that Steve Jackson has GURPS Book of the New Sun in playtest at
this moment, due for release early next year (IIRC). IO members can
download the playtest file (I joined IO not too long ago so I could get the
playtest stuff off of the web, mainly; I can't WAIT for GURPS Discworld!).


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 18:12:08 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Unknown worlds, inconsistancies

On Sat, 5 Oct 1996, Robert Flammang wrote:

> Hi.

Howdy Rob.  Nice post!


> There have been some complaints on this list recently about the fact
> that the worlds on the rimward edge of the Core subsector map have not
> been detailed. I just want to point out a thing or two which may go a
> litte way toward explaining any apparent "inconsistancies."

Great!


> 1)	The text explicitly states that there has been no "FORMAL"
> contact with these worlds for over 200 years. This is not such an
> unusual thing. Japan had no FORMAL contact with the rest of the world
> for quite a while. This was not because of some technological or
> geographic limitation; it was a political decision by the Japanese
> government.
> 
> I believe it was true until the last few years that the US had no formal
> contact with Vietnam. (Or partly true. "Formal" is sufficiently vague
> a word to allow for many interpretations.)

Good points.  But I think the most important point you raised was...


> 2)	In no place does T4 state that the IISS has no knowledge
> whatsoever of these worlds. Just that the players don't.

this.  Individual refs will have far more knowledge of the setting than 
players will.  And you have to admit that many players will have access 
to the published material.  It's best to put what players would know in 
pubished materials - and leave the rest for individual referees to 
determine for their own games.  Then, the referees can decide how much of 
that information is known to players, the ISS, the Imperial goverment, 
etc. 

While those of us who are more experienced can easily change the "canon" 
to suit our own visions, those who are less experienced will be relying 
on published materials more.  So, by acknowledging that everything which 
is published will be known to many players, and by therefore requiring 
GM's to create their own "unknown" aspects of the setting, IG has 
provided a solution to the problem.  IG provides the foundation - 
referees provide the building.


> 3)	All of the worlds in Core are on a jump-1 main with Sylea 
EXCEPT
> for these "mystery worlds." You need jump-2 to reach any of them. In a
> lower tech Imperium dominated by jump-1 ships, these worlds are located
> in a pretty serious backwater. This could make them the equivalent of
> Pitcairn Island from a Sylean's point of view.

Another good point.


> All this talk about IG putting out an inconsistent product seems a
> little premature to me. It's Marc Miller's universe; he's an intelligent
> and thoughtful guy. Let's wait to hear him out before we knock his work
> (or anyone else's). And cheer up! It's almost certainly NOT going to be as
> bad as you fear!

Here, you raise the most important point.  It's a difficult one to 
swallow, but: This is Marc Miller's game.  However he wants to make it is 
how it should be made.

"But what about listening to customers?!"  When is the last time a 
novelist asked for feedback from his readership while in the process of 
crafting a new novel?  I think creating games is far more of a creative 
process - like writing a novel - than it is like producing other products.

It was nice of Marc and IG to allow us an opportunity to give them 
feedback on some ideas - and it was great that they took some of our 
suggestions to heart - but in reality, they're under no onus to do that.
They are free to make the products however they want to, and we're free 
to buy them or refrain from doing so.  But there's no reasonable basis 
for saying that they're obligated to do what we want - or even that they 
would be better off doing so.  So, getting self-ritous about our favorite 
aspects of Traveller being dropped and/or changed is just plain silly.

For better or worse, there are more ways to make money from Traveller 
than by pandering to us hard-core fanatics. ;)  

Since realizing all of this, I've resolved not to be overly critical of 
what IG puts out there.  I'm going to try to examine it in the light of 
what would be best for their stated goal: reaching a new audience 
(presumably without changing Traveller so much that it bears no relation 
to its original incarnation).


> (But, remember what Marc's Traveller philosophy is: it's just as certainly
> NOT going to be what you would expect!)

That's what I'm counting on.  :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "athol-brose" <cinnamon@one.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 19:08:09 -0400
Subject: T4 "Core" subsector data file available

I just wanted to announce that there's a subsector data file suitable for
use with Galactic (or other mapping software?) for T4's core sector
available from my just-getting-off-the-ground Traveller web site located
at: 

http://w3.one.net/~cinnamon/traveller.html

Right now it is ONLY a subsector data file with none of the other files
needed for Galactic to make sense of it.

I eventually plan to extend this with planet information, including
population data and other data missing from the two pages in the T4 core
rulebook, as well as other information culled from here and there.


------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 20:06:02 -0400
Subject: Traveller Auction

Referees Gaming Kit
        $10 bid

BUT...maybe we should mobe this to e-mail rather than on the list.
                                        Allen


------------------------------

From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 19:44:00 -0700
Subject: Re: Help with the animals!

David Joseph Smart wrote:
> I can't find a "skill level" either. My only suggestion is fake it with
> a target number of 8. I believe this was the number from the Classic
> Traveller Animals supplement and the T4 animal concepts seem
> to have been from it.
> pulled mostly

David, thanks for the input.  One quick problem with your suggestion, 
although it is easy to fix, is the 8+ attack throw from CT/Animals 
supplement.  T4 is a 'roll low' system.  Since you are having this same 
problem with the animal attack throws, I suggest inverting this.  Instead 
of 8+, use 6-.

TNE, if you don't have it, used the following table to determine hit 
numbers:

	Animal Type		D6
	Herbivore		2
	Scavenger		2
	Omnivore		2
	Carnivore		3

I was hoping to see something like this in T4.  I guess I'll have to 
convert the TNE system to T4.

"Ah, Zathras' work is never done, and neither is the GM's."

Thanks again, David.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 18:49:12 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 Quality Control

On  4 Oct 96 at 17:13, Steve Charlton/Avalon Softwar spewed:

> ones, but I've much worse from much larger companies.  Anybody out
> there ever look at the first edition of Gamma World?  Somebody
> mentioned AD&D Player's Handbook 1st edition.  Heck, that was
> Shakespeare compared to the first edition of the DM's Guide.  And by

Actually, that was me, and I was specifically thinking of the DM 
Guide.  It made MT look perfectly error free by comparison for those 
who've not seen the 1st edition...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.geis.com
Date: Sun,  6 Oct 96 02:10:00 GMT 
Subject: (assorted)

Harold Hale said:

>Jim Vassilakos writes:
>
>>I find it sort of odd that they didn't make any attempt to match the
>>old material. It is a very curious decision on their part. Clearly, they
>>must have had access to this material. I'm sure GDW got a copy
>>of everything that DGP ever put out for Traveller, and when the rights
>>transferred to Marc Miller, it would only make sense that he'd be the
>>person to get the huge pile-o-stuff that must have been piling-up in
>>their library.
>
>   The material that DGP produced went to GDW.  The individuals responsible
>for producing T4 were not with GDW when the DGP stuff (or at least the bulk
>of it) was produced.  As for the "huge pile-o-stuff", it is my understanding
>that Frank Chadwick sold most of the existing stock off before GDW went
>under, and that Marc Miller actually inherited very little of it.

The stock that was sold off consisted of GDW products only. GDW had no
major quantities of DGP material. indeed, we had none whatsoever,
aside of what was in the company reference library and in the
reference copies of the individual designers (DGP would usually send
us a dozen or so copies of each product, and Marc passed them around,
keeping a few for his own reference.

> Chances are if any are still around, they are still in Frank's
>possession.

'Fraid not. Frank has reference copies (I think), but he doesn't have
 cartons of DGP stuff sitting in his living room (neither do I or
Marc, for that matter).

> Certainly during the Nilsen-Chadwick-Wiseman Regime (bet you didn't
> think that your name would be used in relation to the word
'regime', eh Loren?  :-)  ),

I'll have to admit I never saw myself as part of a "regime." I hope
that nothing pejoritive is intended by the term?


>Dave Nilsen was under the impression that GDW owned the rights

Actually, it was Dave's impression and mine that GDW had the right
to freely reference and use any DGP copyrighted materials in GDW
products...not that GDW owned the copyrights. At least that was the
case the last time we discussed the matter...Ghod, seems like so long
ago.


Gerald S. Williams

>Thanasis Kinias <tkinias@primenet.com> wrote:
>> Much has been discussed about to-hit possibilities under T4 rules, but
>> what about lethality?  I understand that T4 is using CT's wound rules, but
>> I'll blaspheme and say that GDW's T2k-based "house system" handled this
>> better.
>
>Funny, my experience with that system (through Traveller:2300) was
>quite the opposite (but that's neither here nor there).

Traveler 2300 and the later D20 GDW House system (as used in Twilight:
2000 and TNE) were different kettles of fish. IIRC, under the house system,
a single aimed shot to the head from a 9mm/.38 pistol had a 30% chance of
killing the average character.

Merrick said:

> BTW, I would think that white metal work would be poured into
> vulcanized spin molds.  I don't, but I know a lot of outfits use
> real vulcanized molds (RTV is Room Temp. Vulcanized, a chemical
> reaction cures it, not heat/pressure like regular vulcanized molds).

A lot of places use production molds are that are vulcanized, and
these tend to be more rugged, but the same holds true of them:
they eventually wear out, and must be replaced. As a side note,
GDW looked into acquiring miniatures production facilities once, and
found the insurance demands were gigantic. Something about spinning
molten metal makes insurance companies nervous...

Stuart L. Dollar said:

>I hate to say it, but errata are part and parcel with book
>publishing.  Go back and take a look at your favorite novel,
>particularly if its a first printing/first edition.

When I first read _The Killer Angels_ (_excellent_ novel set during
Gettysburg, for those who haven't seen it) back in the late 70s, I noticed a few really
several glaring errors (one of them included spelling THEIR as THIER). When
Turner did the book as the movie Gettysburg a couple of years ago, I
bought the reprint tie-in and noticed the _same errors,_ twenty years
later. It always made me feel better that Ballentine books had
similar problems to GDW.

Allen said:
> Another one of my favorite Traveller typos (this one courtesy of
> Pyramid Magazine's "Murphy's Rules"); the text in TNE clearly states that it
> is the PLAYERS, not the "characters", who take burn damage from vehicle
> explosions. (" C'mon, Bob, it's in the rules. Now hold still while I get the
> lighter fluid...")

I sent that one in to Pyramid when Scott H. asked if I had any
Murphy's Rules from TNE...

Speaking of such things, you should see the illo we decided not to
run, depicting a Ithklur and a Hiver in - er - a compromising
position.

Rich Ostorero said:

> Lodi, California. Home of Tokaj Esperance grapes (Fans of _AHL_
> may remember this . . .)

For GDW's 20th Anniversary, in 1993, I tapped a bottle of Tokaj Aszu
5 puttunos (from Hungary, not Lodi)...not quite essenzia, but close.

       Loren Wiseman
          GDW Emeritus (1973-1996)


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Sunday, 6 October 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 497

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues (Long)
         2. RE: Kinunirs
         3. RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs
         4. RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs
         5. Re: Transgendered RPGing
         6. Loren
         7. RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs
         8. Casting Stones
         9. Re: I am going to give it a go...
        10. Re: I am going to give it a go...
        11. Re: Unknown worlds, inconsistancies
        12. Re: Casting Stones
        13. RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs
        14. Re: I am going to give it a go...
        15. Re: Unknown worlds, inconsistancies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 96 01:51:05 UT
Subject: RE: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues (Long)

Rich Ostorero said:
>> Boyd Schneider said:
>> I wish I could see a copy of it, I've heard lots about it but have never 
seen
>> one...  nor anything else from that company... as far as I know.  Heard
>> someone mention that it was same as the CT Library Data books, izzat true?
>
>I think so. . . .

Yep, I just found it at half-price book store for $4.98  I'm glad they mixed 
the library data with things like ships and equipment.  I'll probably use it 
even though it's bad spaghetti.

>> Wish I could join in, what's your 10-20?
>
>Lodi, California. Home of Tokaj Esperance grapes (Fans of _AHL_ may >remember 
this . . .) 
>and lotsa rednecks.

How long does it take to reach the S.F. bay from your place?  Maybe I'll give 
you a shout next time I'm there...

					---Boyd



------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 96 01:28:07 UT
Subject: RE: Kinunirs

I just found a nearly MINT Condition copy of Adventure 1 The Kinunir from my 
local half-price bookstore for 48 cents!  (It has a label on the back "Best 
Role-Playing Adventure for 1979 H.G. Wells Award" -- F.Y.I)

Here is what it says about the first flight: 

"...The Kinunir class is named for the first vessel of its type to fly.  
Although both the Shulgi and Zaggisi were laid down before Kinunir, General 
Products rushed their ship to completion, recording flight three days before 
their competitors..."

A table shows that the Kinunir was laid down 127-1074 and the first flight 
240-1077.
The last ship in the production run was the Adda-Dubsar which was laid down 
292-1087 but never flown.  It was scrapped "208-1089 after a Navy decision to 
discontinue production..."

The adventure repeatedly makes mention of the "ill-fated" Kinunir, of the 
first 24 that were authorized for production, only 20 were made.  Apparantly, 
there were so many problems, production was halted, and General Products 
ceased building military ships entirely.  (I think somebody mentioned that the 
Kinunir went back into production later, but that's bad spaghetti as far as 
I'm concerned.)

So the Kinunir class battle cruiser doesn't fly until 1077 years in the future 
(referring to the original discussion).

					---Boyd
- ----------
From: 	owner-traveller@NS.MPGN.COM on behalf of Rich Ostorero
Sent: 	Saturday, October 05, 1996 2:31 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Kinunirs

Thanasis Kinias wrote:
> 
> Boyd Schnieder wrote:
> >
> > Rich Ostorero said:
> >
> > . . .
> >
> > >In my Year 0 game, there are other pocket empires thinking the same
> > >thing as the Syleans are thinking -- just like in the RC game I ran
> > >there was the Solee with their Starburst-class CL as well as their
> > >relic Kinunirs -- all of
> >
> > But I thought the Kinuner wasn't produced until a few centuries later?
> > . . .
> 
> IIRC, the _Kinunir_s were built in the eleventh century (pre-Civil War).
> I'm sure I remember a note that only 20 were built and all served in the
> Marches (in CT).  _The Regency Sourcebook_ says they were returned to
> production during the Final War.  Is it likely to find them in the former
> Solomani space (e.g. RC)?

I cite as my authority the novel _To Dream of Chaos_; the Solee had a number 
of them in 
the book. 

Might these relics be prizes captured by the Solomani during their offensive 
from the 
Rim?

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com




------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 96 03:28:59 UT
Subject: RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs

Rich Ostorero said:

>In this rednecked, fundimentalist-Christian dominated community, it is not 
>_physically 
>safe_ to advertise that you play RPGs, practice alternative spirituality or 
are 
>otherwise "wierd." The Friendly Local Game Store has been _picketed_ by >the 
local Fundie Christians as a source of those _evil_, devil-games.
>>
>> So I stick to talking about my
>> other hobbies:  karate, rugby and surfing - somehow the response is
>> always better :-)
>
>I always say that my hobbies are "SF, military science, military history, and 

>computers." The synrgy is obvious to those in the know, but is not to the 
local 
>mundanes.

I think that much of the problem arises from several factors:

- --- The tendency of role-playing gamers to have an affinity for *wierdness* in 
general, I mean, I wouldn't want some of you guys to come into my house... 
;-)>  
(Of course if I was a daddy, I wouldn't want my children to have friends like 
I was at certain times in my life...)  :-)>   Anyway, as representatives of 
gaming, their appearance tends to define the activity to the uninitiated.  You 
must admit, if the vast majority of RPG'ers were straight-A students, had 
respectible jobs, wore Cardigan sweaters, etc.  Public opinion would be 
different.  When I was a young'n, I got lousy grades and spent all my time 
playing D&D, Gamma World, Traveller, etc.  I know if there were no such things 
as RPGs, I would've spent my time doing something else (still having bad 
grades) but that philosophy gets lost on people sometimes.
- --- The association of RPG's with the occult within the Christian community.  
I don't mean merely "Occult-theme" RPG's but several Christian authors 
published some scary books linking some very early RPG's with the occult, 
ritual abuse, drug abuse, etc.  I would suppose that there are very few 
role-players who haven't had some experience with "pop-occult" (for lack of a 
better term) at some point in their lives (not to mention drugs).  I have 
(pop-occult, not drugs); but I probably would have anyway, in spite of RPG's, 
since most youngsters get curious about such stuff.  The folks who are 
concerned about such things seem to NEED a focus to vent their concern, so 
picketing a bookstore or game store is what they try to do.  "Mostly Harmless"
(Rabbit-Chasing Addendum:  I don't want to provide an opportunity to to rag on 
"fundamentalists" and their anti-occult activities, my previous church had a 
break-in where some local kids scrawled a few occult symbols on the podium.  
Nothing that couldn't be helped with a little soap and hot water, but the 
point being that the folks picketing the store do perceive a problem.  I say 
that you *should* tell people that you play RPGs, show them that the image 
they have is different from reality.  My previous church had a saying: "The 
church has always persecuted two groups of people: those who don't believe, 
and those who really do..."  In other words: not all fundamentalists are 
Christians and not all Christians are fundamentalists.  'Nuff said about 
that.)

I had some other things in mind, but I forgot them while chasing that pesky 
rabbit...  Maybe they'll come back to me later in the thread.

To sum it all up:  The problem has two areas of responsibility: 
1) is the irresponsibility of the American church culture in general of 
handling what they perceive as a social or moral problem.  I can tell you that 
they are aware of their responsibility or lack thereof and are working on that 
to varying degrees.  The church where my wife and I attend is the most 
fascinating place:  We have lots of older folks wearing conservative clothes 
and another group of younger conservatively dressed folks, but what is really 
neat is the scattered groups of kids with blue hair, mohawks (and other 
unusual cuts), body piercing, etc.  I must say that the feeling of acceptance 
for people (like me who hide their differences on the inside) is enhanced 
because of the way those folks are accepted.  At any rate, there is nothing we 
can do as gamers to change this.
2) What we can do is to counter effects the irresponsibility of Role-Playing 
Gamers in general by our conduct and behavior, by the quality of our games, by 
inviting others to play.  Anyone who has spent any time lurking on this 
mailing list will know how devisive we can be (CT vs MT vs TNE).  I remember 
standing in a gaming store a few years ago listening to a guy talk about his 
D&D character: the guy was grossly overweight, looked to be in his 30's, and 
he was ranting about his nth level, multi-classed, character to a couple of 
high-school kids.  It was pitiful!  I mean, the guy should at least faked not 
being a loser!  
Rich Ostero has the right idea when telling folks about all his kewl (and 
socially acceptable) hobbies, but I think that he should include role-playing 
to the mix so folks would associate RPG's with "normalcy" 
(no offense intended by the "normalcy" comment, Rich)  ;-)>

My hats off to those of you who catch my drift and are doing so already!

			---Boyd
			(hopelessly socially unacceptable)	






------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 23:41:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

> I think that much of the problem arises from several factors:
> 
> --- The tendency of role-playing gamers to have an affinity for *wierdness* in 
> general, I mean, I wouldn't want some of you guys to come into my house... 
> ;-)>  
> (Of course if I was a daddy, I wouldn't want my children to have friends like 
> I was at certain times in my life...)  :-)>   Anyway, as representatives of 
> gaming, their appearance tends to define the activity to the uninitiated.  You 
> must admit, if the vast majority of RPG'ers were straight-A students, had 
> respectible jobs, wore Cardigan sweaters, etc.  Public opinion would be 
> different.  

Yup, public opinion would be different...and I might not be a 
role-player.  If it was something for "the polo set," I would have 
probably been disgusted with the whole idea.  I try not to associate 
myself with that sort of people.


> --- The association of RPG's with the occult within the Christian community.  
> I don't mean merely "Occult-theme" RPG's but several Christian authors 
> published some scary books linking some very early RPG's with the occult, 
> ritual abuse, drug abuse, etc.  I would suppose that there are very few 
> role-players who haven't had some experience with "pop-occult" (for lack of a 
> better term) at some point in their lives (not to mention drugs).  I have 
> (pop-occult, not drugs); but I probably would have anyway, in spite of RPG's, 
> since most youngsters get curious about such stuff.  The folks who are 
> concerned about such things seem to NEED a focus to vent their concern, so 
> picketing a bookstore or game store is what they try to do.  

What you say is true.  In T4's case, the occult stuff still come in there 
(psionics), plus it alludes to evolutionistic beliefs.  Two strikes 
against it for many religious people.


> 2) What we can do is to counter effects the irresponsibility of Role-Playing 
> Gamers in general by our conduct and behavior, by the quality of our games, by 
> inviting others to play.  Anyone who has spent any time lurking on this 
> mailing list will know how devisive we can be (CT vs MT vs TNE).  I remember 
> standing in a gaming store a few years ago listening to a guy talk about his 
> D&D character: the guy was grossly overweight, looked to be in his 30's, and 
> he was ranting about his nth level, multi-classed, character to a couple of 
> high-school kids.  It was pitiful!  I mean, the guy should at least faked not 
> being a loser!  

I wasn't there, but my reaction is, "so what?"  He's in his 30's....does 
that make him a "loser?"  He's overweight...does that make him a 
"loser?"  Talking at length on any subject to a disinterested audience 
is socially unacceptable, but do you know those kids weren't interested 
in his nth level, multi-classed character?

BTW, I'm 27, 5'10, and 170 pounds.  I have a college education, occupy a 
professional position in a corporate office, don't play D&D.  But I 
still would rather associate myself with the "geeks" who play RPGs, 
enjoy computers, and read sci fi, than associate myself with those who 
concern themselves with "proper" hobby activities. :)

As my grandfather said, "Screw 'em if they can't handle it."


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 96 01:16:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Transgendered RPGing

Simon John Harding <str26082901@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> How often would players in your games play female characters?

At least some of the time, we had male players with female characters, and
female players with male characters.  Not a big deal.  Personally, I play
either, and create characters based more on what _kind_ of character I
want, rather than always having to play a male, or a female, or a human
or a vargr or anything else.

What gets _really_ strange is when you start to mix Aslan into the whole
thing.  You see, Aslan divide their society along gender lines: pilots,
warriors, gunners, and similar positions are male (only).  Navigators,
business executives, engineers, and so on are female (only).

Of course, when talking to humans, Aslan tend to ignore various biological
features that humans consider obvious, and attribute gender roles to humans
based on their jobs (conversely, Aslan will tend to assume that anyone only
has skills appropriate to their gender - and wouldn't hire a female pilot,
or a male engineer)

One interesting campaign had a (male) player handing a (female) Aslan.  No
choice - he wanted the character to be the owner of a Mercenary company, and
only females can be business-owners.  Of course, her (the character's)
brother was the commander of the mercenaries, because only males can serve
in combat positions.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 02:32:20 -0400
Subject: Loren

I don't know about you guys (and women, for those that are out there), but I
really enjoy having Loren on this list. Because he was there when a lot of
Traveller was formed, he's got some insights that make for informative and
entertaining reading.
But he always leaves me thinking that there's so much more he'd LIKE to say...
        Thanks, Loren.
                                Allen

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 96 06:28:31 UT
Subject: RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs

In a previous message, Joe Walsh scolded:

>On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

<snip>

>> D&D character: the guy was grossly overweight, looked to be in his 30's, 
and 
>> he was ranting about his nth level, multi-classed, character to a couple of 

>> high-school kids.  It was pitiful!  I mean, the guy should at least faked 
not 
>> being a loser!  
>
>I wasn't there, but my reaction is, "so what?"  He's in his 30's....does 
>that make him a "loser?"  He's overweight...does that make him a 
>"loser?"  Talking at length on any subject to a disinterested audience 
>is socially unacceptable, but do you know those kids weren't interested 
>in his nth level, multi-classed character?

I guess I opened myself up for that one.  Sorry.  I think what I was trying to 
convey was the fact that folks get an idea about things in general, and then 
project their generalizations on everyone else associated with it.  The scene 
I described only proved how judgemental I myself can be.  I abase myself.

BTW, I'm 27, 5'10, and 170 pounds.  I have a college education, occupy a 
professional position in a corporate office, don't play D&D.  But I 
still would rather associate myself with the "geeks" who play RPGs, 
enjoy computers, and read sci fi, than associate myself with those who 
concern themselves with "proper" hobby activities. :)

Then you would enjoy my company as well.  :-)>

				---Boyd
				(still hopelessly socially unacceptable)

------------------------------

From: Charlie <Brreclus@spectra.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 02:59:22 -0400
Subject: Casting Stones

This list is full of Folks who are real bent over the errors in T4. Yes
We would all like a perfect product, but that is not what We got. Most
of Us have never done what the T4 crew has done, nor do We know what
They had to deal with to get the Game out. Why not just deal with what
We have and move on?
                                                           Charlie

------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 02:04:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: I am going to give it a go...

     One of my favorite old Traveller adventures has always been Adventure 2,
"Research Station Gamma," which (along with "Shadows") established the Mystery
of the Ancients that was carried through Adv 3 & 12.  However, Iwouldn't
necessarily recommend "running it" at a Con because the Adventure itself 
has essentially no plot: just a 2-page Situation and a lot of Background/
setting stuff.  I actually like this style, which frees the referee from the
tedious work of generating maps and stats and worlds and such, while leaving
freedom to actually plot the thing however you want, but it's not something
you can just pull of the shelf and "run" and it's very much at odds with
the (apparent) current trend in gaming-supplement design, where it seems as 
if every scene is scripted and choreographed.

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 02:35:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: I am going to give it a go...

   Oops!  I forgot to say what it actually is that I like about Adventure 2:
First, it's got a great start-up-- the Travellers (I always refer to groups
of Traveller PCs as that) are hanging around in the saceport bar on a 
god-forsaken backwater world that seems completely uninteresting when an
intelligent Chirper (their first mention, IIRC) comes in and pleads for
someone, ANYONE, to help:  it's siblings have been captured by evil humans
and are going to be vivisected; but as payment he can only offer a few gold 
coins (which later turn out to be the famous Droyne coyns)...
   From there, the course of the adventture is comletely up to the ref and
the players.  There's a big chart o' rumors, which can be used as
side-adventures, red herrings, background color, or hints towards the "main"
plot of the adventure (ie rescuing the Chirpers).  There's info and a map 
of the planet, which is pretty low TL, lightly populated, mostly water, and
(at least according to the rumors) populated by naval pirates.  They also
give information about Submarines.  Most of the book-space is taken up giving
a detailed room-by-room description of the Imperial Reserach Station, and 
if the PCs investigate closely enough (and watch out for the Robots) they 
can piece together that the station's engaged in Psionics research, along
with various enigmas about the Chirpers, the coyns, and, it seems like, some
oblique references to the Ancients themselves.  The book finishes up with
some rules for operating the Robots, descriptions of the other weird 
creatures held in the Station's pens, a description of the scientist who
runs the station (who, IIRC, was somewhat mentally unstable), and a bunch of
Library Data.
   With all that info, it's really just a test of player and ref ingenuity to 
see what you can do with it.  You can emphasize the Enigma, exploration of
the world and/or the station, roleplaying, combat with naval pirates, with
robots, with strange critters, or with mad scientists, the ethicality of
the Imperium conducting inhumane experiments in secret, the possible legal
ramifications of the PCs breaking into an Imperial Research Station, and
probably more possibilities I haven't thought of.  There's no fixed plot or
storyline, so it doesn't matter if the players do something clever to
sidestep what's expected.
   Anyway, if the ref's willing to put in the effort (although I think it's
fun effort, rather than tedious number-crunching) of molding all this raw
material into something coherent, I think this adventure's really good and
representative of the kind of things that I like best in Traveller (enigmas,
exploration, ethical questions, and negotiations, rather than military
actions or standard Trading).
   There, I think I've said enough of why I like this adventure (even though
I don't think it's good as a tournament/con scenario).

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 02:51:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Unknown worlds, inconsistancies

   About Adventure 12 "spoiling" the Ancients, this is something which seems
to get leveled against Traveller pretty often but I, for one, see nothing
wrong with it.  For one thing, Adventure 12 wasn't released until 4-5 years
after the Enigma of the Ancients was first presented (in Adv 2-3), so it's 
not like they didn't give players a chance to wonder.  I'm of the opinion 
that if they're going to throw out an Enigma, that it's better to get a 
resolution eventually (even if it's not quite what you would have wanted it
to be-- you can always ignore it) than to just leave it hanging forever.  
Sure, knowing that something's going to remain perpetually unresolved can
spur the individual GMs on to create their own solutions, but more likely 
(at least in my case) it will cause the ref to disregard it as something 
which obviously can't be TOO important or interesting if they're not going
to develop it any further.
    And lastly, who says that your players should be curious about the 
Ancients after Adventure 12?  If they bought it themselves and read it, then
they've robbed themselves of the fun of discovery and deserve what they got,
if they actually played through the scenariuo then they should feel a sense
of accomplishment at having resolved this great Enigma and allow themselves 
to go on to other adventures.  The Traveller universe is big and diverse 
enough that no single mystery being revealed (even a really big one) is going
to kill off the game's creative potential-- sure, the mystery of the Ancients
was a compelling part of early Traveller, but except for very oblique
Library Data-type references, it really only took up a small part of the
published material; the vast majority of the adventures (and all of the
Solomani Rim ones) being completely unconcerned with who the Ancients really
were.
    Sorry for ranting into thin air, but it just bothers me when people act
like one of the things I value most in Traveller (a search for knowledge that
has eventual tangible results) is some sort of flaw or mistake.

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 03:05:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Casting Stones

     Must be bored, posting so many times...
     From what I've read, it seems that the only people who are really bent
out of shape about the errors in T4 are new would-be refs who aren't sure
what judgment calls to make due to lack of complimentary knowledge (which is
regrettable, but should be alleviated both by the appearance of new 
supplements and future (error-free) printings of the rules-- therefore 
making this only a temporary problem) and USENET loudmouths, with whom there
can be no peaceful agreements.  
     Plus, if you look closely, a lot of the complaints (beyond a purely
technical and petty level-- typos, the missing tables, etc) seem to really
be matters of taste and personal preference (I don't like the character
generation system, therefore it's BAD, therefore the game's BAD).  I, for
instance, love the new char-gen system and have used it to generate several
really fun personality-filled sample PCs, but that doesn't mean that I think
it's the One True Char-gen system and that all others suck.  Unfortunately,
some folks don't seem to be able to make such distinctions, and they seem to
be statistically over-represented in USENET posters.

Trent Smith


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 09:21:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

> I guess I opened myself up for that one.  Sorry.  I think what I was trying to 
> convey was the fact that folks get an idea about things in general, and then 
> project their generalizations on everyone else associated with it.  The scene 
> I described only proved how judgemental I myself can be.  I abase myself.

Heh.  No need to abase yourself. :P

Seriously, your point that people generalize is, of course, true.  Our 
reaction to that is what differs: I don't particularly care what random 
people think of me.  I only care what my friends and family think of me - 
and people who know me don't suddenly think I'm a geek or an occultist 
simply because I play RPGs.

By the way, I don't know whether you read the independent role-playing 
magazine Shadis, but this month's "The Edge" editorial was along the lines 
of what you were saying in your original post.  The author began by 
saying that gamers tend to be seen as, "unwashed, lacking in social 
skills, obsessed to the point of mania with the games."  However, the 
editorial ended up being about competition - healthy competition vs. 
unhealthy competition, specifically.  

I can agree with the author's stance on that.  I'd like to see all 
gamers being paragons of good behavior as well, in that respect.  
(Although, the author gave an anecdote from Gen-Con of a"twelve-year-old 
on a crying jag because someone twice his age felt the need to utterly 
crush him during a Magic tournament."  But this brings up a question of 
whether 12-year-olds should be playing in the same tournament as adults 
- - are the adults to purposefully lose so the little guys don't cry?)  
There's no reason to be "in your face" about this stuff.  They're just 
games, after all.  

So, as long as gamers aren't obnoxious in such ways (having their 
character kill the other PCs, gloating over "winning" a RPG at the 
expense of other players' enjoyment, etc.), I don't have a problem with 
the other "socially unacceptable" aspects.  Like a militant, pro-minority 
friend of mine said about negative views of blacks, "That's _they're_ 
(white people's) problem."  If you're overweight, over 30, and eat bad 
spaghetti, I'll gladly share a game with you. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 09:25:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: I am going to give it a go...

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Trent Smith wrote:

>      One of my favorite old Traveller adventures has always been Adventure 2,
> "Research Station Gamma," which (along with "Shadows") established the Mystery
> of the Ancients that was carried through Adv 3 & 12.  However, Iwouldn't
> necessarily recommend "running it" at a Con because the Adventure itself 
> has essentially no plot: just a 2-page Situation and a lot of Background/
> setting stuff.  I actually like this style, which frees the referee from the
> tedious work of generating maps and stats and worlds and such, while leaving
> freedom to actually plot the thing however you want, but it's not something
> you can just pull of the shelf and "run" and it's very much at odds with
> the (apparent) current trend in gaming-supplement design, where it seems as 
> if every scene is scripted and choreographed.

I guess this is my day to bitch and moan. :)

This choreographed approach bugs me.  While I'm not one for using 
pre-packaged adventures much, I'm more likely to use one that is crafted 
along the lines of the old, CT-era adventures than those that are 
currently produced.  I hope IG and the licensees will be using the 
correct approach for the adventures they produce.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 09:30:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Unknown worlds, inconsistancies

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Trent Smith wrote:

>    About Adventure 12 "spoiling" the Ancients, this is something which seems
> to get leveled against Traveller pretty often but I, for one, see nothing
> wrong with it.  For one thing, Adventure 12 wasn't released until 4-5 years
> after the Enigma of the Ancients was first presented (in Adv 2-3), so it's 
> not like they didn't give players a chance to wonder.  I'm of the opinion 
> that if they're going to throw out an Enigma, that it's better to get a 
> resolution eventually (even if it's not quite what you would have wanted it
> to be-- you can always ignore it) than to just leave it hanging forever.  

Perhaps interestingly, GDW used both approaches, as you may already 
know.  The Annic Nova remains a mystery to this day, as far as published 
material goes (and as far as what Marc Miller has said about it - he was 
asked here and at the Gen-Con seminar, and both times he replied that he 
didn't know, because he never planned to provide a solution to that 
mystery - it's up to individual referees to do that, if they wish).


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Sunday, 6 October 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 498

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Casting Stones
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #481
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #482
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #485
         5. Re: Various subjects, long, somewhat rantish.
         6. Re: Fossils and Time Travel
         7. The Media and RPGs (Was:  Social Acceptance of RPGs)
         8. Auction Update
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #496
        10. Gambling
        11. Re: Casting Stones
        12. Re: Various subjects, long, somewhat rantish.
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #481
        14. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #496
        15. Re: Gambling

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 10:02:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Casting Stones

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Trent Smith wrote:

>      Must be bored, posting so many times...
>      From what I've read, it seems that the only people who are really bent
> out of shape about the errors in T4 are new would-be refs who aren't sure
> what judgment calls to make due to lack of complimentary knowledge (which is
> regrettable, but should be alleviated both by the appearance of new 
> supplements and future (error-free) printings of the rules-- therefore 
> making this only a temporary problem) and USENET loudmouths, with whom there
> can be no peaceful agreements.  

UseNET is a wonderful and frightening thing, isn't it?  On the one hand, 
I was able to find a core group of enthusiasts of the Atari 8-bit 
computer on there, and share a lot of great discussions with them (as 
well as trade some home-brewed software that we each made).  Where else 
but an international forum could I find dozens of people who use such 
an out-dated computer platform?

On the other hand, as you point out, that same forum gives considerable 
power to every crackpot, con artist, and loudmouth that comes along.  
Whereas in the past such people were pretty limited in the number of 
people they could poison with their words, they now have an almost ideal 
forum from which to wreak their havoc.

As usual, technology has provided a two-edged sword.

So, what should be done about it?  I actually think IG has done pretty 
well in dealing with it.  While that first message by Ken just fed the 
fire (although it was right-on from the perspective of being true - 
it just wasn't good PR), his damage-control follow-up seems to have enraged 
only the lunatic fringe.  Those people aren't going to be reached 
anyway, no matter what is done.  (At least, that has been my experience.  I 
ran a successful BBS for many years, and there were always those who 
would criticize my board, no matter what I did.  I finally gave up on 
trying to please them.  Some of those people went away, some stuck 
around.  But overall, it didn't affect the viability of my BBS one whit.)

My advice to IG:  Prove them wrong by your actions.  If they say your 
game "sucks" or that your company "never returns phone calls," prove them 
wrong by selling lots o' product and by giving those who do call a really 
good experience (like you've done in the past, as many of us can attest).  

While the nuts bitch and moan, we'll be talking about our good 
experiences with IG.  Most people, given the choice between believing 
someone who is ranting and someone who is being reasonable, will believe 
the reasonable person (I learned this in a customer relations course I 
took at college, by the way.  When dealing with irate customers, remain 
calm and reasonable - especially if it is a public setting, like in a 
store on or Usenet.  Bystanders will tend to look favorably on you for 
remaining calm and collected.  As a corollary, if you're doing the 
complaining, remain calm: not only will bystanders view you as a good 
person, the person to whom you are complaining will be far more likely to 
rectify the situation than if you yell and scream).
 

>      Plus, if you look closely, a lot of the complaints (beyond a purely
> technical and petty level-- typos, the missing tables, etc) seem to really
> be matters of taste and personal preference (I don't like the character
> generation system, therefore it's BAD, therefore the game's BAD). 

That's right.  And, as I said, IG simply isn't going to win those people 
over - may as well ignore them and get on with the job of selling massive 
quantity of high-quality product. :)


> I, for
> instance, love the new char-gen system and have used it to generate several
> really fun personality-filled sample PCs, but that doesn't mean that I think
> it's the One True Char-gen system and that all others suck.  

I just read a message on UseNET that claimed the T4 chargen system was 
just like the one in MT.  Is this true?  It's been so long since I owned 
MT, I can't recall.


> Unfortunately,
> some folks don't seem to be able to make such distinctions, and they seem to
> be statistically over-represented in USENET posters.

Sadly, true.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 96 16:43 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #481

In-Reply-To: <9610021856.AA30303@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Thanasis Kinias <tkinias@primenet.com>
Subject: T4 Combat

Much has been discussed about to-hit possibilities under T4 rules, but
what about lethality?  I understand that T4 is using CT's wound rules, 
but I'll blaspheme and say that GDW's T2k-based "house system" handled 
this better.  If CT/T4 combat represented the real world, war would be a 
rather like paintball games, as the lethality is _way_ too low.  >>

Exqueeze me? I always found it to be exactly the opposite: with T2k/TNE 
PCs were virtually indestructible, whereas when I was running CT/MT I 
had to fudge a lot to keep them alive.

<< The problem resides in the near-impossibility of a one-shot kill w/o 
using called shots.  A black-powder pistol is given a rating of 2.  This
generates a _maximum_ damage of 12 which _cannot_ kill Joe Average >>

But it *can* knock him out, which is as good as dead in a combat 
situation. First wound is applied to a single characteristic. Average of 
2D6 is 7. Therefore, on average, you get 1-shot KO.

<< A damage-4 shotgun is necessary to get a one-shot kill
possibility, as the damage-3 maximum (T4 p.57) prevents even a TL-15 
12cm APFSDSBSD round from killing a normal man. >>

This rule is obviously broken in extreme cases.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 96 16:43 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #482

In-Reply-To: <9610022254.AA30938@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: RPG Babes..

I think we are getting onto something interesting here. I am a Role-play 
gamer raised in a tradition of no female players. This was not a rule, 
it was just that no female would be seen dead playing RPGs with us. 
Role-playing was, and still is, largely considered anti-social in New 
Zealand. Female playesr are still quite rare.
My question is; How often would players in your games play female 
characters? >>

*Anti*-social? It's about as social as you can get.

Depends on the player. Some would always play males, but most tried 
female at least once. Say an average of 1 PC in 5 would be female.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 96 16:43 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #485

In-Reply-To: <9610031608.AA32738@NS.MPGN.COM>

<< From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: IG's Future, Singed Traveller, Education, in fact everything...

GERMAN CONVENTIONS
- - ------------------

BITS will be running the Traveller demos, etc. for OrkCon on 1-3 Nov in
Schweinfurt, Germany >>

BITS in Germany?! This is obviously a definition of 'British Isles' that 
I wasn't previously aware of...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 09:59:16 -0600
Subject: Re: Various subjects, long, somewhat rantish.

At 04:36 pm 10/5/96 -0700, David Joseph Smart wrote:
- ---------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^

        Nice name ... too bad I own the copyright. Please submit Cr1,000
usage fee...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 08:29:43 PST
Subject: Re: Fossils and Time Travel

In mail you write:

>>>Work up a velocity of a large fraction of c *away* from the planet.
> The relativistic effects skew your "plane of simultaneity" so that
> what *was* the planet's past is now contemporary with you.

> I'm not familiar enough with Relativity to fully understand this, but I 
> think it's fascinating.  I would like to use it in an adventure, but I need 
> more facts.  Could you please explain it further?  Why would your frame of 
> reference be in the planet's past?  I thought that relativistic speeds would 
> make it so that a trip to the center of the galaxy would be 10 years to you 
> and 10,000 years to the planet you left (gross approximation here). 

That's sort of true. But for example, take a pair of worlds, each
moving at 80% of c *relative to each other* in opposite directions.
Count the time they passed each other as zero.

At 80% of c, time is slowed to 60% of normal. So on world A, after 100
days, they'd see only 60 days as having passed on World B. Obvious time
is passing slower, right? But World B makes the same observation about
world A. And they are *both* right. To "settle" the question, you'd
have to travel from one to the other, and that means changing your
speed, which puts you in a *third* reference frame. It gets real messy.


>  Wouldn't that be time travelling to the future?  How would jump drive 
> change this?  Exactly how fast would you need to be going and how far away 
> from the planet would you have to go to travel a certain time backward? 
>  Please tell me more!  Fascinating!!  Thanks!

I've got to find the time to work up the details, but the basic thing
is, that observers moving relative to each other see things happen at
different times, and there is no such thing as simultaneous events if
the events are in different places. Different observers will see them
happen at different times.

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>>You aren't looking at this correctly. Since none of the other worlds
> have this, their sciences are going to have very weak evolutionary
> theories if they have any at all. After all, if humans, and perhaps a
> few food animals and plants (which will be *very* widespread by the
> time science is invented) don't fit in with the rest of the native
> organisms, that's going to make the jump from genetics (the monk in the
> garden with the bean plants) to evolution a lot harder.
>
> This would be very true for scientists on planets which did not evolve any 
> life on their own.  But since there are many planets which did, and 
> scientists there would be able to see fossil evidence of (alien) evolution, 
> I wouldn't think that those scientists would have weak evolutionary theories 
> (unless they were very religious ;) ).  Even Vland has locally evolved life 
> forms that human Vilani can't eat without special food preparation 
> techniques.  The fossil evidence for the evolution of the local life forms 
> would not only help demonstrate evolution, it would highlight the fact that 
> some (transplanted) life forms, including humans, did not fit in at all. 
>  This would drive scientists to search for a reason why.  Don't you agree?

Nope. The fact that some life forms don't fit would *destroy* evolution
as a theory. Claiming they were alien would get you looked at really
strangely (much like supporters of Erik von Daniken :-). Especially if
*humans* are one of the species that don't fit. 

Later, when interstellar travel turns up humans on other worlds, if
someone *remembers* that old theory, it might get another look, but it
wouldn't happen quickly or soon.

Think how far Newton would have gotten if there had been well known
objects that *didn't* obey his laws of motion. He'd still be trying to
find a way to make them fit in.

Scientific theories have to be *inclusive*. And that would be fatal to
evolution until they had hard evidence to show that there really *were*
two seperate sets of species.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 11:58:12 -0500
Subject: The Media and RPGs (Was:  Social Acceptance of RPGs)

>
>Rich Ostorero said:
>
>>In this rednecked, fundimentalist-Christian dominated community, it is not
>>_physically safe_ to advertise that you play RPGs
>
>I think that much of the problem arises from several factors:
>- --- The tendency of role-playing gamers to have an affinity for
>*wierdness* in
>general, I mean, I wouldn't want some of you guys to come into my house...
>;-)>
><snip>
>- --- The association of RPG's with the occult within the Christian
>community.
>I don't mean merely "Occult-theme" RPG's but several Christian authors
>published some scary books linking some very early RPG's with the occult,
>ritual abuse, drug abuse, etc.

I'm fortunate, in that, here in Madison, I can do something about these
perceptions. For the last five years, I was a writer for the daily morning
newspaper, "The Wisconsin State Journal."  Twice a year (once for GenCon,
once for Christmas), I'd get large stories on the best game releases, from
family games to RPGs. At other points, I'd be able to fit gaming stories
and sidebars to national news items (the elections, the Gulf War, etc.)
I've written  large feature articles on Historical Wargaming and ones on
Warhammer 40,000.  And the response has always been positive.

I also covered stories on muggings over Magic cards. I did it as straight
news, while a local TV station went to the local games store ("Pegasus
Games"), and started asking questions to Magic players like "do you really
believe you can cast spells with these cards?"

I quit the paper this year to pursue a freelance writing and cartooning
career, but I was there long enough to realize that most local papers and
TV stations just do not have the resources to hire experts - or even
individuals with broad enough backgrounds to make educated guesses -  in
every field. Thus, when "knee-jerk" stories like cattle mutilations (long
repudiated by publications such as the Skeptical Enquirer) or RPG/Satanism
come along, some poor schmoe is sent out with no idea what's going on.

(Notice how relatively few national publications pick up on such stories?
That's because they *have* the human  resources to realize such stories are
garbage.)

It's a sad, frustrating situation. I'm sure the scientists on this list can
also attest to the equally frustrating science illiteracy rampant in local
news outlets. Ignorance, not mallevolence, is often a motivating factor in
gaming coverage by these organizations. But that's no excuse.

So what can we do? Gaming clubs can send press releases to TV stations and
papers when they have events scheduled. Conventions are particularly
photo-friendly. Public demonstrations are also good ideas - especially
where miniatures are concerned. Education is always the key, which is
difficult when a public does not necessarily *want* to be educated. But
getting good press isn't hard, when many local news organizations have a
difficult time filling their pages. Hell, getting weekly event listings is
downright easy. And remember to send photos with them. The local Historical
Gaming store frequently makes presentations in schools, to boyscout troops,
etc. The local RPG store offers "good student" discounts.

Some people will always associate rock/gaming/science/whatever with
Satanism. They'll never be converted. What we have to do is make sure that
reasonable people have a fair understanding of what the various facets of
the hobby are all about.

John Kovalic




********************************************************
           "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --
*
*              MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
*
********************************************************




------------------------------

From: "Nathan & Theresa Mezel" <hotchip@oeonline.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 12:46:45 -0400
Subject: Auction Update

These are the results of the auction so far.  Bids submitted with wording
"one dollar over current bid" are good for one bid only, that is if someone
bids over your price later,  I will not automatically put a bid in for one
dollar more.

>From GDW

1.   Adventure 1: The Kinuir    Current Bid $1.00
      fine condition, minor cover wear 
2.  Double Adventure 2: Mission on Mithril  Current Bid $1.00
      fine condition, minor cover wear
3.  Double Adventure 3: Death Station  Current Bid $2.00
     fine condition, minor cover wear
4.  Double Adventure 5: Chamax Plague  Current Bid $2.00
     fine condition, minor cover wear
5.  Double Adventure 6: Divine Intervention  Current Bid $1.00
     very fine condition
6.  Book 8: Robots  Current Bid $10.00
     great shape! minor cover wear, a rare item!
7.  Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society No. 5  Current Bid 8.00
     very fine condition
8.  JTAS No. 6  Current Bid $5.00
     very fine condition
9.  JTAS No.7  Current Bid   3.00
     very fine cond.
10. JTAS No.7  Current Bid $3.00
      same as above
11.  JTAS No.11  Current Bid $3.00
      very fine cond.
12.  JTAS No. 12  Current Bid $1.00
       very fine cond, missing merchant pull-out
13.  Alien Module 1: Aslan   Current Bid $5.00
       nearly mint!
14.  Alien Module 4: Zhodani   Current Bid $15.00
      good condition, cover wear
15.  Astrogators' Guide to Diaspora  Current Bid $5.00
      new in shrink wrap

>From Digest Group Publications

16.  101 Vehicles  Current bid $10.00
       like new
17.  Referee's Gaming Kit  Current Bid $11.00
       like new, complete with handouts
18.  Flaming Eye Campaign Sourcebook  Current Bid $20.00
       very fine cond., little wear, a rare item

>From FASA and Others

19.  Legend of the Sky Raiders  Current Bid $8.00
       fair cond., cover wear, map is present
20.  Far Traveller No. 1  Current Bid $5.00
       very fine cond.
21.  High Passage No. 2  Current Bid $5.00
       very fine cond.
22.  High Passage No. 3   Current Bid $5.00
      very fine cond.
23.  High Passage No. 4   Current Bid $5.00
      very fine cond
24.  High Passage No. 5   Current Bid $5.00
      very fine cond
25.  Scouts and Assassins 2nd ed.   Current Bid 10.00
       fair shape, small tear, cover wear, stain on cover, a rare item

Again, please email me directly with bids and questions.

Thanks

Nathan Mezel



------------------------------

From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 13:11:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #496

Rich Ostorero said,

>In this rednecked, fundimentalist-Christian dominated community, it is not
>_physically safe_ to advertise that you play RPGs, practice alternative
>spirituality or are 
>otherwise "wierd." The Friendly Local Game Store has been _picketed_ by the
>local Fundie 
>Christians as a source of those _evil_, devil-games.

I have a little pet theory about this phenomenon. I was into gaming in the
late 70's when the first reports appeared of christian fundies trying to
outlaw D&D in some rural Bible-belt county. They were all riled up about
AD&D because it "promoted witchcraft and demon-worship" - specifically
through the inclusion of demons and devils in the _Moster Manual_. Demons
and Devils with names that appear in the Bible and other christian texts.
Obviously this game promotes devil worship, right?.

Except of course it's not the gamers but the fundies who believe in demons
and witches. Fundies honestly believe the devils and demons named in the MM
are real beings who have power to influence real events and real people.
The fundies may well believe they're protecting youth from a real threat of
demonic influence, but I think what really sticks in their craw is that
these supposedly real demons and devils appear in the book alongside elves,
pixies, faeries and leprechauns. In other words, the book clearly promotes
*disbelief* in these fantastic creatures. And that's what the Fundies
really abhor. Fantasy RPGs suggest that important elements of their
religious worldview are exactly as fictitious as faeries and pixies.

Not demonology. Blasphemy. In order to actually believe in demons you have
to be a fundamentalist christian (of a sort).

Of course, this theory tends to fall down somewhat in the face of all those
pale and serious black-clad LARPers festooned with crosses...

Jeez, what if the fundies were RIGHT?!

Glenn

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Your mind has a gutter all it's own." -- Trevor Goodchild



------------------------------

From: SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 13:27:21 -0400
Subject: Gambling

Greetings!

I'm beginning a Traveller campaign for a group of players, one of which is
extremely interested in focussing on the "gambling" skill.  And, I need
whatever help you more experienced GMs and players can offer.

I've got the article "The Gamesters of Findass II", but have not come across
any other information.  Mind you, I have not combed through everything I own,
but if someone would be so kind as to point me in the correct direction, I
(and the player) would be very grateful.

I'm not above taking information from other game systems and translating it
into Traveller if need be, BTW.

Thanks for your time (and hoping this isn't a done to death question),

Niko
SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 10:30:36 -0800
Subject: Re: Casting Stones

On  6 Oct 96 at 10:02, Joe Walsh spewed:

> I just read a message on UseNET that claimed the T4 chargen system
> was just like the one in MT.  Is this true?  It's been so long since
> I owned MT, I can't recall.

MT is my current Traveller system of choice, and probably will be 
until I see some more stuff produced for T4...

Since MT's character generation system is basically that of CT 
including Supplement 4: Citizens, and the Advanced Systems of Books 
4-7, this is for the most part incorrect...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: David Joseph Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 13:15:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Various subjects, long, somewhat rantish.

David J. Golden wrote:
> 
> At 04:36 pm 10/5/96 -0700, David Joseph Smart wrote:
> ---------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
>         Nice name ... too bad I own the copyright. Please submit Cr1,000
> usage fee...

Golly...what a shame I received it directly from the Emperor when
I was knighted, as allowed by a previous Imperial High Court ruling
under the auspices of Emminent Domain, thereby negating
your copyright. Trust me on this...I just made a spectacular
success roll against my Law skill.  ;-)

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 13:32:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #481

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Andrew Boulton wrote:

> << From: Thanasis Kinias <tkinias@primenet.com>
> Subject: T4 Combat
> 
> Much has been discussed about to-hit possibilities under T4 rules, but
> what about lethality?  I understand that T4 is using CT's wound rules, 
> but I'll blaspheme and say that GDW's T2k-based "house system" handled 
> this better.  If CT/T4 combat represented the real world, war would be a 
> rather like paintball games, as the lethality is _way_ too low.  >>
> 
> Exqueeze me? I always found it to be exactly the opposite: with T2k/TNE 
> PCs were virtually indestructible, whereas when I was running CT/MT I 
> had to fudge a lot to keep them alive.

Let's see...some people think T4's system is too lethal, while others 
think it isn't lethal enough.  Hmmm.  That must mean IG got it just 
right. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 13:38:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #496

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Glenn Grant wrote:

> Not demonology. Blasphemy. In order to actually believe in demons you have
> to be a fundamentalist christian (of a sort).

Interesting theory, Glenn.  So, the D&D books come out, and 
Fundamentalists are upset that their beliefs are treated as fiction.  But 
they know they can't get the populace to rally around that particular 
issue.  Then some kids go nuts and think the world of D&D is real - which 
strangely enough vindicates the view of the Fundamentalists, vis a vis 
the reality of demons and whatnot.  Finally, the Fundamentalists seize 
this opportunity to give D&D a bad reputation, and claim that their 
problem with the game is that it promotes satanism, and they hold these 
nuts up as examples of the effect these occult powers can have on 
unrighteous mortals.

Hmmm.  It's just twisted enough to be true. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 13:52:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Gambling

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996 SCRAWLSFTS@aol.com wrote:

> I've got the article "The Gamesters of Findass II", but have not come across
> any other information.  Mind you, I have not combed through everything I own,
> but if someone would be so kind as to point me in the correct direction, I
> (and the player) would be very grateful.

Dunno how helpful this will be, but here's what we use.  The rules are of 
the quick 'n' dirty variety, but they work.



                        Gambling in the Far Future

     Gambling is a favorite pastime wherever people gather.  Trillions of 
credits are lost and won throughout the Empirium every year.  Some 
governments encourage gambling, hoping to reap the rewards of gambling by 
taxing the activity.  Others outlaw gambling to one degree or another.  
In such cases, shady organizations usually step in to provide this 
particular diversion to those who desire it.
     The purpose of this article is to provide several methods of 
resolving gambling situations in which the characters may become involved.  
The rules provided are to be used with Traveller, Imperium Games' science 
fiction role playing game of the Far Future.
     Gambling rules for poker, dice and slots are provided.  As referee, 
you may of course choose to create additional rules for your own Traveller 
campaign.


Poker

     The rules of Poker for Traveller involve rolling five dice.  A 
player may re-roll a number of dice equal to his or her Gambling skill level.
     The order of hands, from best to worst, is 5 of a kind, straight, 
full house (two of one value, three of another), four of a kind, three of 
a kind, two pair, pair, and high roll.
     The referee should roll for the House and any NPC's who are playing 
against the players.


Dice

     Dice is a game that may be played anywhere there is gravity, and it 
has probably been around since the dawn of civilization.
     In the game of Dice, each player rolls 2D, and add their Gambling 
skill, if any.  The highest total score wins the "pot".  In the case of a 
tie, bets are made again and added to the existing pot for the next throw.


Slot Machines

     The slot machine is a favorite of unskilled gamblers, who suffer no 
disadvantage due to their lack of skill.  Experienced gamblers tend to 
shy away from such diversions, knowing they will have a better chance of 
winning at other games of chance.
     Slot machines accept from 1 to 25 credits per "pull", and pay off 
according to the bet made and the roll achieved.
     To simulate a slot machine, simply roll three dice, and read them as 
they fall from left to right.  In the case of two dice being at the same 
point, whichever is closer to the edge of the table is read first.  After 
reading the dice in this way, consult the following table for the 
payoff.  Any roll not listed pays nothing.
     In the table, X represents any number rolled.

     Roll      Payoff         Roll      Payoff
    6-X-X       2:1           3-3-3       8:1
    6-6-X       4:1           4-4-4      16:1
    1-1-1       2:1           5-5-5      32:1
    2-2-2       4:1           6-6-6      64:1


Copyright (c) 1996, Joseph E. Walsh.
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #498
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Traveller-digest           Sunday, 6 October 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 499

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Still waiting for T4
         2. Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs
         3. Re: (assorted)
         4. Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues (Long)
         5. Auction Update 2
         6. RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #496
         7. RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs
         8. Re:female characters
         9. RE: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues (Long)
        10. RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #494
        12. RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs
        13. Another Animal Bug
        14. T4 Combat
        15. Traveller-digest V1996 #470
        16. More errata to report, and a call for ideas

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JD.Burdick@t-online.de (J D Burdick)
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 96 18:04 +0100
Subject: Re: Still waiting for T4

T4 still has not found its way through the APO system to Germany yet.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 12:04:13 -0700
Subject: Re: Social Acceptance of RPGs

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 

> I think that much of the problem arises from several factors:
> 
> --- The tendency of role-playing gamers to have an affinity for *wierdness* in
> general, I mean, I wouldn't want some of you guys to come into my house...
> ;-)>
> (Of course if I was a daddy, I wouldn't want my children to have friends like
> I was at certain times in my life...)  :-)>   Anyway, as representatives of
> gaming, their appearance tends to define the activity to the uninitiated.

I can relate to this; when I was married, I had to be very careful about who gamed at my 
place. Most who did were current military members who have to maintain certain standards 
of appearance and behavior to remain in uniform. Now that I'm single again, the 
stangeness coefficient of my gamer buds is irrelevant.

> You
> must admit, if the vast majority of RPG'ers were straight-A students, had
> respectible jobs, wore Cardigan sweaters, etc.  Public opinion would be
> different.  When I was a young'n, I got lousy grades and spent all my time
> playing D&D, Gamma World, Traveller, etc.  I know if there were no such things
> as RPGs, I would've spent my time doing something else (still having bad
> grades) but that philosophy gets lost on people sometimes.

The problem is, the silent majority of gamers _are not_ strange misfits. The _visible_ 
core of the hobby is, but not the majority.

> --- The association of RPG's with the occult within the Christian community.
> I don't mean merely "Occult-theme" RPG's but several Christian authors
> published some scary books linking some very early RPG's with the occult,
> ritual abuse, drug abuse, etc.  I would suppose that there are very few
> role-players who haven't had some experience with "pop-occult" (for lack of a
> better term) at some point in their lives (not to mention drugs).

This association is the result of a very insidious and successful propaganda campaign. 
Your supposition is interesting. Prior to getting into rolegaming, I had _no_ interest 
in the pop occult. My interest today in alternative spirituality has _nothing_ to do 
with gaming at all. As for drugs -- forget 'em. Never did 'em in HS, the military or 
later.

>  I have
> (pop-occult, not drugs); but I probably would have anyway, in spite of RPG's,
> since most youngsters get curious about such stuff.  The folks who are
> concerned about such things seem to NEED a focus to vent their concern, so
> picketing a bookstore or game store is what they try to do.  "Mostly Harmless"
> (Rabbit-Chasing Addendum:  I don't want to provide an opportunity to to rag on
> "fundamentalists" and their anti-occult activities, my previous church had a
> break-in where some local kids scrawled a few occult symbols on the podium.
> Nothing that couldn't be helped with a little soap and hot water, but the
> point being that the folks picketing the store do perceive a problem.  I say
> that you *should* tell people that you play RPGs, show them that the image
> they have is different from reality.  

Interesting strategy, openness. I'll have to think on it.

> My previous church had a saying: "The
> church has always persecuted two groups of people: those who don't believe,
> and those who really do..."  In other words: not all fundamentalists are
> Christians and not all Christians are fundamentalists.  'Nuff said about
> that.)

That's for sure. 'Nuff said!

> 
> I had some other things in mind, but I forgot them while chasing that pesky
> rabbit...  Maybe they'll come back to me later in the thread.
> 
> To sum it all up:  The problem has two areas of responsibility:
> 1) is the irresponsibility of the American church culture in general of
> handling what they perceive as a social or moral problem.  I can tell you that
> they are aware of their responsibility or lack thereof and are working on that
> to varying degrees.  The church where my wife and I attend is the most
> fascinating place:  We have lots of older folks wearing conservative clothes
> and another group of younger conservatively dressed folks, but what is really
> neat is the scattered groups of kids with blue hair, mohawks (and other
> unusual cuts), body piercing, etc.  I must say that the feeling of acceptance
> for people (like me who hide their differences on the inside) is enhanced
> because of the way those folks are accepted.  At any rate, there is nothing we
> can do as gamers to change this.
> 2) What we can do is to counter effects the irresponsibility of Role-Playing
> Gamers in general by our conduct and behavior, by the quality of our games, by
> inviting others to play.  Anyone who has spent any time lurking on this
> mailing list will know how devisive we can be (CT vs MT vs TNE).  I remember
> standing in a gaming store a few years ago listening to a guy talk about his
> D&D character: the guy was grossly overweight, looked to be in his 30's, and
> he was ranting about his nth level, multi-classed, character to a couple of
> high-school kids.  It was pitiful!  I mean, the guy should at least faked not
> being a loser!

I'm overweight and 30-plus . . . but the absolute _last_ thing I do is brag about my 
characters in a power-tripping manner. THAT does look bad! I like to talk about my 
characters, sure . . . but I like talking about the worlds I run more, the ideas behind 
them and how things all interrelate therein. I also like talking about _other_ things -- 
sports, politics, current events, computers -- to balance the gaming I do.

I remember a little pamphlet published by Tri Tac a few years ago called "Gamers" that 
pointed out the many folibles of gamer folks. One of the cartoons showed an overweight 
guy bragging about his N+1 level D&D god/character to a kid, who promptly shot the guy, 
saying "people like him are too stupid to live."

> Rich Ostero has the right idea when telling folks about all his kewl (and
> socially acceptable) hobbies, but I think that he should include role-playing
> to the mix so folks would associate RPG's with "normalcy"
> (no offense intended by the "normalcy" comment, Rich)  ;-)>

What's "normal"? ;) None taken, and I'll have to do some thinking about this. Thanks, 
Boyd.

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 11:36:49 -0700
Subject: Re: (assorted)

gdw.support@genie.geis.com wrote:
> 
>
> 
> The stock that was sold off consisted of GDW products only. GDW had no
> major quantities of DGP material. indeed, we had none whatsoever,
> aside of what was in the company reference library and in the
> reference copies of the individual designers (DGP would usually send
> us a dozen or so copies of each product, and Marc passed them around,
> keeping a few for his own reference.
> 
> > Chances are if any are still around, they are still in Frank's
> >possession.
> 
> 'Fraid not. Frank has reference copies (I think), but he doesn't have
>  cartons of DGP stuff sitting in his living room (neither do I or
> Marc, for that matter).

This sounds like the post-GDW era version of the "Golden Cache" mentioned in the novel 
_To Dream of Chaos_.

<<deletia>>

> When I first read _The Killer Angels_ (_excellent_ novel set during
> Gettysburg, for those who haven't seen it) back in the late 70s, I noticed a few really
> several glaring errors (one of them included spelling THEIR as THIER). When
> Turner did the book as the movie Gettysburg a couple of years ago, I
> bought the reprint tie-in and noticed the _same errors,_ twenty years
> later. It always made me feel better that Ballentine books had
> similar problems to GDW.

GREAT book! To hell with the errors. it's still _good_.

<<deletia>>

> 
> Speaking of such things, you should see the illo we decided not to
> run, depicting a Ithklur and a Hiver in - er - a compromising
> position.

Hmmm...is there a .GIF of that somewhere, Loren?? ;)

> 
> Rich Ostorero said:
> 
> > Lodi, California. Home of Tokaj Esperance grapes (Fans of _AHL_
> > may remember this . . .)
> 
> For GDW's 20th Anniversary, in 1993, I tapped a bottle of Tokaj Aszu
> 5 puttunos (from Hungary, not Lodi)...not quite essenzia, but close.

I thought you might have had something like that for the 20th. 

- --Rich Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com



------------------------------

From: Rich Ostorero <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 12:06:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues (Long)

Boyd Schneider wrote:
> 
> Rich Ostorero said:
>
> >> Wish I could join in, what's your 10-20?
> >
> >Lodi, California. Home of Tokaj Esperance grapes (Fans of _AHL_ may >remember
> this . . .)
> >and lotsa rednecks.
> 
> How long does it take to reach the S.F. bay from your place?  Maybe I'll give
> you a shout next time I'm there...
> 
>                                         ---Boyd

I'm just north of Stockton, located in the Sacramento/Stockton Corridor. Where in the 
Bay are you??

- --Rich



------------------------------

From: "Nathan & Theresa Mezel" <hotchip@oeonline.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 16:11:29 -0400
Subject: Auction Update 2

These are the results of the auction so far.  Bids submitted with wording
"one dollar over current bid" are good for one bid only, that is if someone
bids over your price later,  I will not automatically put a bid in for one
dollar more.

>From GDW

1.   Adventure 1: The Kinuir    
     Current Bid $1.00 / koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu
     
2.  Double Adventure 2: Mission on Mithril  
    Current Bid $1.00 / koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu
      
3.  Double Adventure 3: Death Station  
     Current Bid $2.00 / petermiller@youngmerlin.com
     
4.  Double Adventure 5:ChamaxPlague
     CurrentBid $5.00 / sennafan@rust.net


5.  Double Adventure 6: Divine Intervention  
     Current Bid $5.00 / sennafan@rust.net
    
6.  Book 8: Robots  
     Current Bid $10.00 / koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu
     
7.  Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society No. 5  
     Current Bid 8.00 / tfsmith@pamona.edu


8.  JTAS No. 6  
     Current Bid $5.00 / koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu

9.  JTAS No.7  
     Current Bid   3.00 / koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu

10. JTAS No.7  
     Current Bid $8.00  / koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu

11.  JTAS No.11  Current Bid $3.00 / koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu

12.  JTAS No. 12  Current Bid $1.00 / koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu
      
13.  Alien Module 1: Aslan   
     Current Bid $5.00 / koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu
       
14.  Alien Module 4: Zhodani   
      Current Bid $15.00 / goldendj@usa.net
     
15.  Astrogators' Guide to Diaspora  
      Current Bid $8.00 / sennafan@rust.net
      
16.  101 Vehicles  
      Current bid $10.00 / koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu
      
17.  Referee's Gaming Kit  
       Current Bid $8.00 / petermiller@youngmerlin.com
       
18.  Flaming Eye Campaign Sourcebook  
      Current Bid $20.00 / goldendj@usa.net
       
19.  Legend of the Sky Raiders  
      Current Bid $8.00 / tfsmith@pamona.edu
       
20.  Far Traveller No. 1  
      Current Bid $5.00 / koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu

21.  High Passage No. 2  
      Current Bid $5.00 / koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu
       
22.  High Passage No. 3  
      Current Bid $5.00 / dsmart@flash.net
      
23.  High Passage No. 4   
      Current Bid $5.00 / koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu

24.  High Passage No. 5   
      Current Bid $10.00 / ransom@connect.iconnect.net

25.  Scouts and Assassins 2nd ed.   
      Current Bid 10.00 / goldendj@usa.net
    
Duplicate bids will go to the first one recieved at my server (my email
lists time message was sent).  This may have changed my former posting.  
Any comments are welcome.  
Again, please email me directly with bids and questions.

Thanks

Nathan Mezel




------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 96 20:23:25 UT
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #496

Glenn Grant said:

> Not demonology. Blasphemy. In order to actually believe in demons you have
> to be a fundamentalist christian (of a sort).

Speaking as a mystic, I wouldn't consider it blasphemy for someone to 
disbelieve in things spiritual.  Ignorant, but not blasphemy.  The issue of 
blasphemy is in the realm of the "religious" (my use of the word "religious" 
is symantically similar to your use of the word "fundamentalist."  

				---Boyd

------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 96 20:02:14 UT
Subject: RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs

Well said, Joe, well said...   :-)>

			---Boyd

- ----------
From: 	owner-traveller@NS.MPGN.COM on behalf of Joe Walsh
Sent: 	Sunday, October 06, 1996 9:21 AM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Boyd Schneider wrote:

> I guess I opened myself up for that one.  Sorry.  I think what I was trying 
to 
> convey was the fact that folks get an idea about things in general, and then 

> project their generalizations on everyone else associated with it.  The 
scene 
> I described only proved how judgemental I myself can be.  I abase myself.

Heh.  No need to abase yourself. :P

Seriously, your point that people generalize is, of course, true.  Our 
reaction to that is what differs: I don't particularly care what random 
people think of me.  I only care what my friends and family think of me - 
and people who know me don't suddenly think I'm a geek or an occultist 
simply because I play RPGs.

By the way, I don't know whether you read the independent role-playing 
magazine Shadis, but this month's "The Edge" editorial was along the lines 
of what you were saying in your original post.  The author began by 
saying that gamers tend to be seen as, "unwashed, lacking in social 
skills, obsessed to the point of mania with the games."  However, the 
editorial ended up being about competition - healthy competition vs. 
unhealthy competition, specifically.  

I can agree with the author's stance on that.  I'd like to see all 
gamers being paragons of good behavior as well, in that respect.  
(Although, the author gave an anecdote from Gen-Con of a"twelve-year-old 
on a crying jag because someone twice his age felt the need to utterly 
crush him during a Magic tournament."  But this brings up a question of 
whether 12-year-olds should be playing in the same tournament as adults 
- - are the adults to purposefully lose so the little guys don't cry?)  
There's no reason to be "in your face" about this stuff.  They're just 
games, after all.  

So, as long as gamers aren't obnoxious in such ways (having their 
character kill the other PCs, gloating over "winning" a RPG at the 
expense of other players' enjoyment, etc.), I don't have a problem with 
the other "socially unacceptable" aspects.  Like a militant, pro-minority 
friend of mine said about negative views of blacks, "That's _they're_ 
(white people's) problem."  If you're overweight, over 30, and eat bad 
spaghetti, I'll gladly share a game with you. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: Simon John Harding <xtr26082901@xtra.co.nz>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 20:07:46 +1300
Subject: Re:female characters

I have got a lot of answers to my initial question. Thanks for that. I 
especially can appreciate Pete Blake's situation whereby he doesn't 
actively advertise being a RPGer. I am also astonished at the number of 
responses that indicated that having females in their playing groups had 
been common for long periods of time. 

Thanks to Niko. How did you get started in gaming?

I was a little disappointed that none of the New Zealander lurkers 
decloaked to comment. I can only assume that my impression of the social 
acceptance of RPGs in NZ was correct as was my conclusion about female 
participation in RPGs in NZ. 

As for playing female characters. I have done so on many occasions. My 
character turnover has always been high due to a high death rate. My 
female characters tend to be very anime and exotic much like those 
described by a fellow list member a few digests back. My most recent 
female character was in Shadowrun. Her name was Kristy Lane and was an 
Organisational Change Specialist (Corp) with a custom designed medium 
pistol called the 'Baretta Legionaire'. I have to admit she was modelled 
somewhat from the character in the French movie 'Nikita' or in the 
American re-make 'The Assasin'. Kristy Lane was without doubt my 
favourite female character of all time - the others being mere shells.


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 96 20:34:25 UT
Subject: RE: Sinking Ships & T4 Blues (Long)

 Rich Ostorero said:
>I'm just north of Stockton, located in the Sacramento/Stockton Corridor. 
>Where in the 
>Bay are you??

- --Rich

No, I live in Dallas -- but was visiting the bay with my wife a few months 
ago.  Thought I might like to come up again some time, so I figgered maybe I 
could meet you face-to-face, maybe have a cameo role in one of your adventures 
or something...   :-)>

				--Boyd


------------------------------

From: "Boyd Schneider" <HomeBoyd@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 96 21:27:49 UT
Subject: RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs

Rich Ostero just keeps getting kewler when he said:

Boyd Schneider wrote:
>> 
>> You
>> must admit, if the vast majority of RPG'ers were straight-A students, had
>> respectible jobs, wore Cardigan sweaters, etc.  Public opinion would be
>> different.  When I was a young'n, I got lousy grades and spent all my 
>>
>The problem is, the silent majority of gamers _are not_ strange misfits. The 
>_visible_ core of the hobby is, but not the majority.

I would suggest that the same thing is true with Christians.  Many of us have 
to live not only with living out our lives in the best way possible, but also 
the bad reputation of those who have much zeal with little wisdom .  I 
wouldn't consider myself a fundamentalist at all -- yet many think the word 
"fundamentalist" is interchangeable with the word Christian.  Even the word 
"Christian" has many meanings to different people.  You have to live with 
people thinking that they know ALL about you once they hear that you are a 
Christian.  Ah, but it runs with the territory...   :-)>

<snip>
>Your supposition is interesting. Prior to getting into rolegaming, I had _no_ 
>interest in the pop occult. My interest today in alternative spirituality has 
>_nothing_ to do with gaming at all. As for drugs -- forget 'em. Never did 'em 
in >HS, the military or later.

I agree, my interest in pop occult had nothing to do with gaming either -- but 
in an attempt to gain some power in my otherwise powerless and often 
frightening adolescent years.  My real interest was in joining the military -- 
so I kept myself drug-free and fairly healthy to that end.  

<snipitta snipitta>
>> I remember standing in a 
>> gaming store a few years ago listening to a guy talk about his D&D >> 
character: 
<snipped for flame prevention>  :-)>
>
>the absolute _last_ thing I do is brag about my characters in a 
power-tripping >manner. THAT does look bad! I like to talk about my 
characters, sure . . . but >I like talking about the worlds I run more, the 
ideas behind them and how >things all interrelate therein. I also like talking 
about _other_ things -- sports, >politics, current events, computers -- to 
balance the gaming I do.

Thanks for not tripping over my words while hearing my meaning.

>I remember a little pamphlet published by Tri Tac a few years ago called 
>"Gamers" that pointed out the many folibles of gamer folks. One of the 
>cartoons showed an overweight guy bragging about his N+1 level D&D 
>god/character to a kid, who promptly shot the guy, saying "people like him 
>are too stupid to live."

ROFL!!!    I wish I could see it...   uh, er, I mean, tsk tsk, what a shame... 
  ;-)>       Who/what is Tri Tac? (I just thought I would gather a few of my 
fundie friends and we would go picket them or something next weekend -- if we 
can't find any game stores, that is...)

>> Rich Ostero has the right idea when telling folks about all his kewl (and
>> socially acceptable) hobbies, but I think that he should include 
role-playing
>> to the mix so folks would associate RPG's with "normalcy"
>> (no offense intended by the "normalcy" comment, Rich)  ;-)>
>
>What's "normal"? ;) None taken, and I'll have to do some thinking about this. 
>Thanks, 

Uh, I think the traditional answer goes something like this (repeat after me): 

"WE are normal.  THEY are wierd and strange."
or a more modern-day, bohemian attitude:
"WE are wierd and strange, that makes us normal.  THEY are normal, that makes 
them wierd and strange."
if the above confuses you, then don't worry, YOU are normal...   :-)>

- ---Boyd
(socially acceptable now that he has been pardoned by Joe Walsh)




------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 06 Oct 1996 17:35:46 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #494

>Besides how many of you 'Holy Canonists' out 
>there think Virus is NOT a heresy? Show of hands please?...

Well, I'm not a 'holy canonist', but I did use/explain Virus.  My Virus
wasn't exactly like GDW's, but then my campaign isn't exactly like their's
either.  My background is telecon researcher and software engineer, while my
father's is epidemiologist/toxicologist with a strong interest in emergent
complexity in dynamic systems, a.life, and similar stuff.  Very hard-science
stuff.  Together, we made Virus work for us.

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 17:21:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: Social Acceptance of RPGs

On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Boyd Schneider ranted thusly:

> ---Boyd
> (socially acceptable now that he has been pardoned by Joe Walsh)

Hey, don't blame ME for your being socially acceptable.  That's your 
problem. :D


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 06 Oct 1996 19:43:32 GMT
Subject: Another Animal Bug

While looking for the base animal hit number (and not finding it), I noticed
another bug in the animal encounter table system.

On page 142, under Animal Characteristics, it states that the a score of A7
means that the animal attacks on a roll of 7 or less.  This is opposite the
CT system, in which the number had to be equalled or exceeded.

However, the tables on page 152 appear to be based on the old CT system,
because a grazer is the least likely animal to flee, while a killer is the
least likely animal to attack!  This makes cows more agressive than
wolverines!

The sample table on page 152 contains results that are impossible to get with
the given rules.  Eg. result 6 has grazers fleeing on 13-, but the roll to
determine the flee number is 1D-1.  I think this means that the wrong table
was printed in the rules.  (Looks like the old CT table, actually.)

------------------------------

From: Thanasis Kinias <tkinias@primenet.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 17:24:42 -0700 (MST)
Subject: T4 Combat

Andrew Boulton writes:

> << From: Thanasis Kinias <tkinias@primenet.com>
> > . . . If CT/T4 combat represented the real world, war would be
> > rather like paintball games, as the lethality is _way_ too low.  >>
> 
> Exqueeze me? I always found it to be exactly the opposite: with T2k/TNE 
> PCs were virtually indestructible, whereas when I was running CT/MT I 
> had to fudge a lot to keep them alive.

I have to agree that PCs were too tough in T2k:  I had one situation
where my PC took a 50 BMG SLAP round in the face and walked away.  I was
happy that my character wasn't worm feed but I became convinced that there
was a problem.  Using Phoenix Command to resolve combat was my solution,
but that was short-lived when the LT took some buckshot in the pelvic area
and spent several months in a wheel chair.  _Too_ realistic for low-tech
medicine!  What I was referring to was that it was possible to reproduce
a realistic result in the house system.

> << The problem resides in the near-impossibility of a one-shot kill w/o 
> using called shots.  A black-powder pistol is given a rating of 2.  This
> generates a _maximum_ damage of 12 which _cannot_ kill Joe Average >>
> 
> But it *can* knock him out, which is as good as dead in a combat 
> situation. First wound is applied to a single characteristic. Average of 
> 2D6 is 7. Therefore, on average, you get 1-shot KO.

I see your point.  I guess the results will be grossly similar if not
finely reproducing the details.

I guess the big thing that bothers me is damage being dependant
exclusively on weapon, where in the Real World (tm) it is really more
dependant on shot placement.  Being grazed with a 22 LR or 458 Win Mag is
is still grazed; a heart-shot with a 22 LR or 458 Win Mag is still dead.
Off the top of my head, what about damage being 2d6 for limbs, 4d6 for
torso, 6d6 for head, with a multiplier for weapon DV.  BTW, a max DV
after armor penitration makes sense here.  Feedback?

 
Joe Walsh wrote:
> Let's see...some people think T4's system is too lethal, while others 
> think it isn't lethal enough.  Hmmm.  That must mean IG got it just 
> right. :)

The truth is always somewhere in between . . .


				Thanasis Kinias
				tkinias@primenet.com



------------------------------

From: jbucsek@delsplace.com
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 18:11:26 -0500 
Subject: Traveller-digest V1996 #470

unsubscribe traveller-digest
Del's Place BBS 204.245.241.76 delsplace.com (503)655-1335 Portland, Oregon, USA
http://www.delsplace.com 

------------------------------

From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pill.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 19:05:07 -0700 (MST)
Subject: More errata to report, and a call for ideas

I was playing today with generating some subsectors for a Milieu 0 
campaign.  I was using this time to write a program that automated UWP 
generation, using the alternate (and far more sensible) world generation 
system, by Zeitlin, et. al. at Joe heck's web site.

(side note...this program generates a list of UWP's with pop multipliers, 
gas giants and asteroid belts in a format to use with sub2ps. When I've 
debugged it, I'll post the source at my web site, it's currently in 
QuickBasic for DOS)

	Anyway, I was going over the systems presented in T4, CT and TNE 
(didn't drag out the MT books though) and discovered a minor typo in T4.

	On page 133, the same description is given for both Type A and 
Type B starports.  I'll go on the old difference between the two, based 
on both TNE and CT, is that Type A's have starship shipyards and Type B's 
don't.

	Also, I was wondering about how to more accurately portray 
non-Sylean space.  After a millenium of Long Night, there's gonna be a 
lot of 'crashed' systems out there.

	If I had it, I'd look up the process in the Hard Times
sourcebook...I suspect that using the collapse process in TNE (and
Challenge 77) is way too extreme. The TNE Collapse system would probably
be a good indicator of what worlds looked like about 300 years ago, during
the darkest of the Long Night, but there's been (I assume) considerable
rebuilding that has occurred. And TED's are right out; their toys broke
many generations ago, though I'll bet there's a bunch of higher tech level
worlds out there in the Milieu 0 wilds who are lording it over their less
advanced neighbors. 

	Ideas, folks? Is it still a Star Vikings universe out there? (H. 
Beam Piper types, not TNE). The collapse of the long night was probably 
pretty slow in most places, and while there was war, it was sporadic and 
confined mostly (IMHO) to squabbling over dwindling high tech resources 
and market share. I'll bet far more worlds collapsed over Great 
Depressions than did from nuclear strikes, as trade died and economies 
shranks, and the widgets you needed to keep your sprocket factory 
humming became unavailable, and nobody wanted to buy your sprockets anyway.

	I'd appreciate anyone who has Hard Times to either e-mail me or 
post a synopsis of the process (or hell, post the whole thing!) so I can 
compare it with the stuff I have for TNE. Maybe we can work out something 
for Freelance Traveller.

	Of course, if anyone has a copy  of Hard Times they'd like to 
part with, let me know, too.


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #499
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